Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I am here with my merciful co-host John Bytheway. John, this is a special episode of followHIM because it makes four years of Come, Follow Me episodes. You and I have been studying the scriptures with some of the most brilliant people for four years. What would you say that experience has been like for you?

John Bytheway: 00:00:33 It’s been, how did I end up here? That’s what I ask myself. How do I get to sit here and mark up my scriptures? And then Hank, you know this, wherever you go, people grab you. Yesterday, two different people, “Hey, I’m listening to you right now,” type of a thing. I always tell them, it’s our guests. Our guests are the secret sauce. I know you feel that way too. We’ve had some amazing scholars.

Hank Smith: 00:00:56 Aha moments, wow moments, things I’ll never forget moments, fills my heart. Well, John, four years ago, we were getting started in a hurry. If you remember, we had just made the decision to start. The incredible Steve Sorensen, our founder, had said, “We got to go.” I called a close friend and said, “Can you come on for our very first episode?” And I think it was maybe two days away and he said, “Absolutely.” John, just to put the bow on it, he’s back for our lesson, this last lesson in The Book of Mormon, Moroni chapter 10, we have Dr. Anthony Sweat back with us. Anthony, welcome, welcome to followHIM.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:01:42 What a joy, what a privilege to be on. I was thinking about it myself when you guys invited me to be on for this Moroni 10, I thought, “I’ve been so lucky to be friends with you guys both for years and we’ve done a lot of things together in various avenues and venues and as teachers.” I was lucky enough to be episode number one kicking this off with the Doctrine and Covenants and didn’t know we were filming and I hadn’t shaved for a day or two and I was wearing my little hoodie and didn’t even know we were on camera.

John Bytheway: 00:02:10 He had a hoodie on.

Hank Smith: 00:02:11 Yeah.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:02:12 Now, four years later, you’ve gone through all four books of scripture and we’re on the very last chapter of The Book of Mormon and what a blessing and privilege to get back on and close out The Book of Mormon with you. You guys have done, incredible is not the right word. It’s been almost miraculous, divinely blessed, wonderful work and I know there’s many, many, many countless people that listen, we’re so grateful to you and all those on followHIM that make this possible. So I’m just honored to be here and be with my friends that I love you both so much and get to be with people out there who are listening.

Hank Smith: 00:02:47 It’s a joy and we feel like a team. We feel like a family. Our listeners as well, John, when I talk to people, they say, “Thank you so much for the podcast.” And I say, “Thank you for listening.” I honestly do feel like our listeners are our partners in this work. I think everybody would join with us in thanking the Sorensen family for making this possible the last four years. So supportive not only with their resources but frequent texts I get from the entire family talking about what they’ve been learning and how grateful they are and we remember Steve.

John Bytheway: 00:03:23 We wouldn’t be here without him. What a blessing that Steve’s vision has been for literally millions. It’s hard to fathom.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:03:31 These are the kind of things that there’s public faces and then there’s behind the scenes’ people who make things happen and while the Sorensen family and everybody involved with followHIM, but particularly their family and making this happen to bless so many lives how they’ve supported and pushed and encouraged, they just want to bless people’s lives with, fill them with the spirit of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I think the Lord has in his mercy given a gift of grace on that effort on this show and it’s been beautiful to watch.

Hank Smith: 00:04:07 To the Sorensen family listening today, we love you so, so much. Thanks to that same Sorensen family, we are going to pick up with the Doctrine and Covenants once again next year, different guests for different lessons and different angles.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:04:25 You mean everything hasn’t been said and learned that could possibly be learned from these scriptures? Incredible.

Hank Smith: 00:04:31 Incredible that you could look at them again and get even more from them. We’re excited that after our Christmas episode next week we will be in the Doctrine and Covenants once again. Such a joy. Everyone come with us on the journey again through the scriptures. John, let’s do it again. Give us a bio for our guest this week. Dr. Anthony Sweat.

John Bytheway: 00:04:59 I’ll do that. Dr. Anthony R. Sweat, got the initial in there. He received a bachelor’s in painting and drawing from the University of Utah and his master’s in education and PhD in curriculum and instruction from Utah State. Dr. Sweat’s the author of several books and articles. In fact, I’ve purchased a number of copies of the Holy Invitation and then he followed that up with the Holy Covenants, which are really helpful for my boys as they prepared for the temple before they went on their missions, so I thank you personally for that.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:05:31 I love to hear that. Thank you.

John Bytheway: 00:05:34 Absolutely. His research centers on factors that influence effective religious education. He taught in seminaries and institutes for 13 years. His paintings center on previously underrepresented important aspects of church history to promote visual learning. And Anthony and his wife, Cindy are the parents of seven children. We’re just really glad to have you back.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:05:57 I’m just grateful to be with you guys and with all the listeners out there and study the scriptures together and talk about him.

Hank Smith: 00:06:03 Anthony did not ask me to do this, but you can go over and read and learn all about Anthony, his website, Anthony Sweat, S-W-E-A-T. That’s right.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:06:13 Just like perspiration.

Hank Smith: 00:06:16 Anthonysweat.com, go over, learn about the arts, learn about the books. Such great work that Anthony is doing, really. Anthony, let’s begin. I’m going to read from the Come, Follow Me manual. John, we should probably thank whoever is putting these manuals together. These are incredible, the opening paragraphs, the questions, the ideas that they offer. Fantastic. Here’s how it starts. “Come unto Christ and be perfected in him. Moroni 10. The Book of Mormon opens with Nephi’s promise to show us that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen because of their faith. The book closes with a parallel invitation from Moroni. Remember how merciful the Lord hath been. What examples of the Lord’s mercy have you seen in The Book of Mormon?

  00:07:06 You might think of the merciful way God led Lehi’s family through the wilderness across the waters, the tender mercies he showed to Enos when his soul hungered for forgiveness or the mercy he showed to Alma, an enemy of the church who became one of its fearless defenders or your thoughts might turn to the mercy the resurrected Savior showed to the people when he healed their sick and blessed their children. Perhaps most important, all of this can remind you how merciful the Lord hath been to you, for The Book of Mormon was written to invite each of us to receive God’s mercy, an invitation expressed simply in Moroni’s farewell words, ‘Come unto Christ and be perfected in him.’” So Anthony, what do you want to do? Where are we going to go?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:07:53 I like to look at the big picture structure of the book and in this chapter in particular, even in the original 1830 Book of Mormon, Moroni 10 was its own chapter. The chaptering in the 1830 for the whole book of Moroni is the same as it is in the current chaptering. This is a concluding message by Moroni as he’s getting ready to wrap up this great book of his father who’s really been our guide through the whole thing. He’s wanting to make some last statements, so big picture, I like to break it down and say what is he doing and my breakdown of this is in verse one to two he is doing an introduction like, “Hey, I’m going to seal this up. I’m getting ready to finish this out.” He is letting us know. I know he has tried to do that before but he is like, “No, I’m serious this time.” Verse 3-7, he’s going to give us our invitation to receive and ponder and ask that we’ll talk about.

  00:08:47 Then I want to connect and talk about we can’t disconnect the invitation from the gifts of the Spirit on verses 8-18. That’s a logical connection there that I want to talk about with you that I think is important for us to realize. After he gives those gifts of the Spirit, he’s going to touch on the three greatest gifts that I want to talk about, faith, hope and charity, without which you and I are nothing. And then he’s going to end with his own personal declaration about the truthfulness of his words in verse 27-29 and then give his final exhortation to come unto Christ and be perfected in him and meet us all at the pleasing bar, like this is a powerhouse chapter and I’m excited to look at each of these a little bit more closely.

Hank Smith: 00:09:32 Anthony, it’s almost as if Moroni has found his spot up on that hillside in New York and he says, “Oh, this is it.” I can see him creating that cement-like box sitting down and penning these last words knowing that this really is it. He’s going to bury this record. I like what you said there, there has to be a connection in his heart to his father and that’s why some of the things his father gave him that we’ve read before in the letters and the sermons, I think that’s on his mind.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:10:06 And he’s going to bring those right back in. And we don’t know this but I like the connection you just made on the title page he says, written to the Lamanites in verse two he says, “I’m going to seal up these records.” In the title page he says, “Written and sealed up.” In verse 32 of this chapter, he gives us exhortation to come unto Christ. In the title page he says, “It’s to convince everybody that Jesus is the Christ.” Then in verse 34, he is going to say, to meet you at the pleasing bar of Jehovah. And then in the title page he says that you may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ. There’s this connection we don’t know when, but he moves very quickly from inscribing Moroni 10 to inscribing the title page of The Book of Mormon. They’re directly connected in my mind.

John Bytheway: 00:10:49 When I begin a Book Mormon class, I like to show them the title page and we’ve all heard that formula of tell them what you’re going to tell them then tell them what you’ve told them. The title page has covenants that they may know, the covenants of the Lord, that Jesus is the Christ. I think on the title page it uses the phrase, “That you may be found spotless at the judgment seat of Christ.” And then you go to the last page in The Book of Mormon and you’ve got, “That they may know the covenants of the eternal father which he hath made yea come unto Christ.” And the last words in verse 33, “That you become holy without spot.” Covenants and Christ and how do we become spotless through the atonement of Christ and yeah, they are so connected.

Hank Smith: 00:11:28 And by the way, that’s just good writing. I tell my students all the time, “Don’t write your first paragraph until you’ve written your last paragraph until you know what you’re going to say.”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:11:36 As Moroni is constructing and concluding this last chapter he says in verse one, “More than 420 years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ.” In verse two, “And I seal up these records after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you.” And that’s going to be a thread through this whole chapter is, I want to exhort you on some things. He’s going to speak to the Lamanites and then to everyone in verse 24, “But these words of exhortation are for us all.” And to exhort means to advise or to encourage. I want to speak some words of strong advice or encouragement. There’s different words but the way it’s translated is exhortation. I just went through and I highlighted his exhortations. I found eight of them in this chapter. In verse three he says, “I would exhort you that you remember how merciful the Lord has been.” Verse four, “I would exhort you that you would ask God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ if these things are not true.” Verse seven, “Exhort you that you deny not the power of God.”

  00:12:43 Verse eight, “Exhort you my brethren that you deny not the gifts of God.” Verse 18, after he lists the gifts, “Exhort you, my beloved brethren that you remember that every good gift cometh of Christ.” Verse 19, “Exhort you, my beloved brethren that you remember that he is the same yesterday, today and forever and all these gifts of which I have spoken which are spiritual will never be done away.” Verse 27, “Exhort you to remember these things.” And in the previous verses they were the things that if the gifts are done away with, there must be no faith. You have to have faith. Verse 30, the last one, “And I would exhort you that you would come unto Christ and lay hold upon every good gift and touch not the evil gift.”

  00:13:30 You see a thread here of what he’s trying to get them and exhorting them to remember. There’s a link of, I’m going to exhort you to remember and have these gifts and know who they come from and they come by faith and this will bring you unto Christ to lay hold upon the best gift, the gift of his atoning grace to be perfected in him. Really good writing direct us through this chapter and that could be a fun way to study it at home or in church is to say, “Let’s find these exhortations. What have you learned about these or how would you encourage or advise people on these subjects?”

Hank Smith: 00:14:08 The etymology on exhort goes back to thoroughly encourage.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:14:14 I like that. Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:14:17 Sounds like what I do with my children and their chores. “I exhort you.”

John Bytheway: 00:14:20 I thoroughly encourage you.

Hank Smith: 00:14:23 I thoroughly encourage you.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:14:23 I’m using that this next Saturday. “Children, I exhort you to actually not put that under your bed.” Let’s start with the first big exhortation in verse three. I’m going to read these because these words are so powerful. “Behold, I would exhort you that when you shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that you should read them, that you would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you.”

  00:15:06 Now, I’m going to pause there before we get to the second exhortation. It’s curious to me that he’s telling us, obviously when you read these things, it’s the whole story of The Book of Mormon as you mentioned in the Come, Follow Me manual, but he wants us to reflect and ponder and really let it rest into our hearts how merciful the Lord has been to these people and therefore to us, ponder it in your hearts. It seems to be saying ponder how merciful God has been to his children in the history of the world and in this history of the Nephites in particular.

  00:15:44 And then in verse four, “And when ye shall receive these things.” Now there’s debate on this. It could be read two ways and I want to acknowledge both ways and when you receive these things meaning the whole Book of Mormon or when you receive these things, like when you receive an understanding of how merciful God has been, he wants us to ponder on that, then I want you to ask God in the name of Christ. You can read it as when you get this book, read it and pray about it and God will manifest to you that it’s true. But it can also be read, really think about God’s tender mercy with his children and let that rest on your soul and when you get that, ask God if that’s not true, that he is a merciful and a loving God who is involved in his children’s lives and wants to help and direct and guide and bless and lead and ultimately save and redeem and cleanse and purify and perfect.

  00:16:44 Let all of that sink in your heart and then ask God about it and you’ll get a witness that that is true, that that’s the kind of God that we’re being led by and that this book testifies of that.

Hank Smith: 00:16:55 I think sometimes we as humans try to simplify things, that can be a good thing, but we may have simplified this what we call Moroni’s promise a little too much. It’s sometimes taught as read The Book of Mormon, pray about it, God will tell you that it’s true. But that’s not what Moroni says. There seems to be much more of a recipe to this. Yes, The Book of Mormon, ask God about The Book of Mormon but ponder God’s mercy that The Book of Mormon almost leads me to say God is merciful. Let me look at that through all of time, not just in The Book of Mormon.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:17:36 And even when you go back to Nephi, this book is so incredible. In 1 Nephi chapter one, Nephi says, he gives us his thesis statement and it’s centered on mercy. “I will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he has chosen because of their faith.” Nephi from the get-go is wanting to say, “Let me show you how merciful God is.” There’s something to pondering on that truth that God loves his children and he continually reaches out that he so loves the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son and that he wants to save us and redeem us and exalt us, justify and purify, that seems to be what he wants us to really ponder in our hearts. And as people are listening to this right now, I would invite you up front ponder on that truth, that’s when these spiritual gifts will open up, where the Spirit will say that is true. And this book is teaching you that truth of a merciful God who reaches and reaches and reaches and never stops reaching.

John Bytheway: 00:18:46 I had a class from Daniel Ludlow, his sons are also religious educators. He was going through verse three and he asked the question, “Where would you learn how merciful the Lord has been from the creation of Adam even down until the time you receive these things?” And he said, “It sounds to me like you have to read the Bible to learn how merciful God has been since the creation of Adam.” Then when you ponder it in your hearts as you’re saying, fill you with gratitude for the tender mercies and I’ve got in my margin, gratitude is the gateway to revelation. Gratitude is kind of a twin of humility, wouldn’t you say? Then you realize you have a lot of gracious blessings, some tender mercies that come with that.

  00:19:29 I’ve always loved the idea of gratitude. I feel like gratitude is an answer to so many problems. I love that He wants to get us in that frame of mind like he just said, Anthony, of ponder how merciful God has been. And if we’re going to learn how merciful He has been since Adam, it’s not just going to be in The Book of Mormon, it’s going to be through the records of God’s mercies in the Bible, wouldn’t you say?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:19:55 Yep. It makes me think to the title page too. You are not cast off forever when you ponder these things, these tender mercies. If everybody who’s listening just thought, “Has God reached out to me? When I reach to him, does he reach back? Have I felt his mercy with forgiveness, with love and grace and healing?” Where we can say, “Yeah, I need to ponder that in my heart. I really need to let that rest on my soul.” The Book of Mormon seems to be shouting to us, God is ever reaching to you as a child of the covenant you are not ever, ever cast off. It’s almost like Moroni is wanting us to think about that, that concept very deeply.

Hank Smith: 00:20:42 Anthony, since we have a Joseph Smith expert here in you, wasn’t this central teaching of the prophet that you have to know God’s character. How can you worship a God you don’t understand?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:20:55 That seems to be central to what Joseph Smith teaches, that’s in the lectures on faith that one of the first principles of faith is to know the true character of God. There is something to what Joseph and every prophet who has come to know God, including Moroni here and his father Mormon, they’re all saying every woman and every man who has come to know God get to know his character because once you get to know his character, you can really have faith and you can have hope and you can have charity. I don’t want to get ahead of us, but that seems to be where Moroni goes too.

Hank Smith: 00:21:32 If you look at the time The Book of Mormon comes forward in 1830, what is the view of God in Protestant America?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:21:42 This is really the height of the most classic one is Jonathan Edwards sinners in the hands of an angry God. No faith is a monolith. But there definitely is some churches out there who are teaching a very merciful God and there are churches who are teaching God who is upset and angry and wrathful and vengeful. And it almost seems that Joseph himself is trying to figure out which God is true and when he goes to a grove of trees to pray, ponder this in your heart for a second, you’re praying out loud and Jonathan Edwards is saying things like God abhors you. That’s a direct quote. “God abhors you. You are like a spider that he wants to dangle over the pit of hell. He’ll consume you in flames.” And then Joseph prays and what comes out of heaven? A pillar of fire.

  00:22:35 No wonder Joseph says, “At first I was afraid.” I’m making assumptions here, but maybe Joseph was thinking, “Oh no, Jonathan Edwards was right, God does abhor us.” But the very first words of the Restoration are, “Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven,” according to the 1832 account. Joseph learns from the beginning that God is just, of course, and God has wrath for the rebellious who reject and fight against him, but his mercy knows no end to bring his children to him and to forgive and to lovingly guide, Joseph learns that from day one in a wooded forest in 1820.

Hank Smith: 00:23:24 I thought when he tells his mother, I’ve learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true, that he might be saying, I’ve learned that God actually loves his children.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:23:33 No, that’s an interesting insight. Do you remember when he says… In one of his accounts, he says that after the first vision that his heart was filled with the love of God and for many days I could rejoice and the Lord was with me. He’s saying, “I’ve experienced the tender mercies and the love of God and how real that really is.”

Hank Smith: 00:23:56 And how excited the Lord must have been to let the world know this is who I am, actually really.

John Bytheway: 00:24:04 That’s exactly what I was going to say. One of the accounts where he said, “My soul was filled with love for many days.” It’s one thing to know, yep, God exists, but wow, the flood of knowledge after the Restoration was and what kind of being is he, and then we get, “Oh, he’s merciful. He’s loving, he’s kind. He’s in relentless pursuit of us. All of those things.” And still Satan’s spin machine is out there, “No, he’ll never forgive you. No, God’s mad at you. No, you’re not worthy for this. No.” We have to keep coming back to where we’re learning what God is really like, not just that he exists but what is he really like?

Hank Smith: 00:24:44 What advice would both of you give to someone on how to ponder God’s mercy? That’s the exhortation in verse three. “Remember how merciful the Lord has been from Adam and Eve to you.” That’s a lot to think on. Take that into your heart.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:25:00 That’s a great question. We probably can’t help but reflect in our own lives right now. Even in my own life as a teenage boy, I was way more concerned with being cool than I was with being kind. On my mind was being an all-state basketball player, not an all-state priesthood servant. My seminary teacher called my own mother in my sophomore year and said, “Every time your son enters my class the Spirit leaves.” That’s true. By the way, that’s a true story.

John Bytheway: 00:25:31 It’s true that he said that or it’s true that the Spirit left? Which one?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:25:35 It’s true for both. Ponder both of those in your hearts because they’re both true. The Lord, he reached out to me in his tender mercies and led me and helped me and encouraged me and I knew I should serve a mission. My mission was a transforming experience for me where I really came to know the Lord, but when I got home I felt led into religious education. I got hired to be a full-time seminary teacher after I graduated from college. I went to one of my first meetings and there was that same seminary teacher and he saw me and he just goes, “Tony Sweat is that you?” And I went, “Yep.” He’s like, “Are you a seminary teacher now?” And I just smiled. He just gave me a big hug and he goes, “The church is true. The church is true.”

Hank Smith: 00:26:27 The prodigal has returned.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:26:28 The prodigal has returned. That’s just one of a thousand stories that I could tell where I’ve seen the Lord be beyond merciful to me. And to so many that I love and that I’ve taught and ministered to and served over the years in different callings, part of pondering it in our hearts is what you and I are doing right now. We’re reflecting on it, we’re talking about it. I sometimes say to all the young men’s, young women’s leaders out there, “Quit doing the sweet and sours at the start of your class where you’re wasting…” Instead of saying, “Hey, give us a sweet and sours, like something positive, something negative,” I changed it to sweet and saviors.

  00:27:14 I said, “Just tell me something sweet about how you’ve seen the hand of God in your life.” And suddenly people still share it. We still got to know the kids just the same but suddenly now they’re centering it on how they’ve seen the hand of the Lord in their life and they start to reflect on his tender mercies is really what they’re doing and they’re pondering it in their hearts and you start to see the hand of God. That’s why President Eyring told us to keep a journal and write that down because we’ll see God reaching, reaching, reaching all the time.

Hank Smith: 00:27:47 John, I’ve told you this before that I did not get the patriarchal blessing I deserved. The one I deserved was probably, “Hank, it does not look good. You have a lot of unearned confidence.” But the one I got was so uplifting, so kind, so you’re going to be this, you’re going to be that. You can do these great things. Anthony, I’m the same as you and I think back, man, the Lord has been good, beyond good. We’ve said this before, John, when you ask the Lord for a fork, he gives you the whole house. He says, “What you want is in there.”

John Bytheway: 00:28:30 Well, sometimes it can be more than you bargained for. “Hey, which church should I join?” Oh boy, what happened after that? Right? And now we’re all sitting here in the inner mountain west. Get a Book of Mormon, go through it and highlight every time you see the Lord’s mercy, be life-changing. But if you’re wondering if he’s merciful to you or if you feel like you need that mercy, go get a new copy and go through it and mark it.

Hank Smith: 00:28:56 When we mean God is merciful, we don’t mean that God is going to save you from all pain and all trial because I might be out there thinking, “Well, God hasn’t been merciful to me. Look at all the difficulties I’ve faced.” How would you teach that mercy and trial and tribulation come together?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:29:18 This is a really important distinction to make because sometimes we can confuse God’s mercy with life being easy and pain-free. I think number one, just theologically we need to understand we’re in a fallen world. Let’s never forget Jesus’s own teaching. The sun shines and the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. We are going to experience loss, sorrow, pain, difficulty, trial, simply because we’re fallen.

  00:29:49 Now the tender mercy to me is that in the midst of difficulty and challenge and loss and pain and trial, God reaches out through his Holy Spirit and through his divine Son to say, “I see you. You are of worth. You’re my child. You’re not cast off forever. I love you. Trust me. My Son will forgive you. I will strengthen you, I will help you. I will be by you.” It doesn’t take away the pain. All of us right now, of all the people listening, there’s pain, there’s hardship, there is in our three lives right now and that doesn’t negate the fact that God reaches out through his Holy Spirit and in essence he whispers, “I love you and I’m with you and I’ll help you. Ultimately I will redeem you and I will recompense and I will strengthen,” and he gives all the promises through Christ. That’s the way we ponder on those mercies even in difficulty.

Hank Smith: 00:30:59 One of the biggest takeaways for me was our episode this year on Mosiah 18 with Dr. Melissa Inouye who ended up passing away just weeks after we recorded. Two things she taught, one that the fact that God says you’re willing to mourn with those that mourn, comfort those in need of comfort and bear one another’s burdens says that there’s going to be a lot of people that are in need of those things. There’s going to be a lot among us who are mourning, a lot among us who have heavy burdens, a lot among us who need comfort. And do you remember what she said, John? She said, “We stand as witnesses of God to those very people, to let them know that God is still there, that maybe they can’t see him in those terrible trials, but the fact that we’re standing there, stand as a witness of God still loving them in their mourning, in their heavy burden, in their need of comfort.”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:31:58 That’s beautiful. Let’s not forget in context, Moroni is writing this after he has seen his people wiped out and his father killed and he’s been alone for decades. He is telling us, “Remember how merciful the Lord has been.” If anybody can speak to mercy in trial, it’s Moroni.

Hank Smith: 00:32:22 That is such a good insight that I had not seen Anthony is look at who’s writing this. If he can say that in his circumstances, almost anyone could say that.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:32:36 It’s so powerful.

John Bytheway: 00:32:38 It’d kind of be like getting a calling and saying, “Well, I’m tired,” and then we look at the President of our church and go, “Oh. Well.”

Hank Smith: 00:32:49 I looked the other day and saw that I think eight members of the Quorum of the 12 are younger than President Nelson’s oldest child. These are just kids.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:33:00 Oh, man.

John Bytheway: 00:33:02 This reminds me of something Elder Neal A. Maxwell said once. He said, “Therefore, how can you and I really expect to glide naively through life as if to say, ‘Lord, give me experience but not grief, not sorrow, not pain, not opposition, not betrayal and certainly not to be forsaken. Keep from me Lord, all those experiences which made thee what thou art. Then let me come and dwell with thee and fully share thy joy.'” First time I saw that I thought of the words of Isaiah about Jesus, a man of sorrows acquainted with grief and I was like, “Yeah, he’s outlining all the stuff the Savior went through.” But when we’re talking about mercy it doesn’t mean life is easy. And our friend Brad Wilcox, I loved what he said, that a God who is asking nothing of us is making nothing of us. To make us into what he wants to make us into, we’re going to have adversity.

Hank Smith: 00:33:55 I think you’re right on there, John. When I read verse three, how merciful the Lord has been and how we tied that back to 1 Nephi and the manual did that, 1 Nephi where Nephi says, “I will show unto you the tender mercies of the Lord.” I think of that talk Elder Bednar, the Tender Mercies of the Lord. Now that talk was very impactful for me because I started to look for those in my life and others’ lives and you see the Lord is very active in a one-by-one ministry, working with people and timing his blessings for them, tailored to them. Me personally, I would encourage everyone this week to go listen to Elder Bednar, I think it was his first full talk in general conference, the tender mercies of the Lord and then keep a tender mercy journal that might be part of pondering God’s mercy in your heart is keeping track. Anthony, we’ve been at it a while now and we’ve gone through a whole three verses, so let’s keep going.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:34:57 Let’s go from verse four in Moroni’s promise and connect it through the spiritual gifts, which is something that often doesn’t happen. If you look in verse four, “And when you shall receive these things,” and that could be the book or the stories from Adam, the scriptures down or that could be when you receive the Lord’s tender mercy, when you understand how much he loves you, “I would exhort you that you would ask God the Eternal Father in the name of Christ if these things are not true. And if ye shall ask with a sincere heart with real intent,” which I’ve heard some interpret as intent to obey the message that comes with real purpose to follow, “Having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost, and by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.”

  00:35:50 These are some of the most oft quoted, oft cited, oft shared, oft promised verses in the whole Book of Mormon. I think we do ourselves a disservice though if we stop there. And we can analyze verse four and five more, but while we’re going keep going to six and seven and eight and notice when he says you’re going to have something manifest to you by the Holy Ghost and he’s going to tell us what that should be. In verse six, “Whatsoever thing is good, is just and true. Wherefore nothing that is good denieth the Christ but acknowledges that he is and ye may know that he is by the power of the Holy Ghost. Wherefore,” so back to the point, “I would exhort you that you deny not the power of God for he worketh by power according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow and forever. And again, I would exhort you my brother that you deny not the gifts of God.”

  00:36:53 Now keep coming with me because you’re going to see the connection, “For they’re many and they come from the same God and there are different ways that these gifts are administered but it is the same God who worketh all in all. And they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men to profit them.” Now I’m going to pause here. Make sure you make the connection when we’re giving Moroni’s promise in verse four that he’s going to manifest to you. I would highlight or mark that word in verse four. I would connect it to verse eight that that manifestation is going to come through the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and in particular the gifts of the Spirit that he’s now going to list in verses 9-16.

  00:37:40 If I’m not being clear enough or if Moroni is not being clear enough, let me just try to say it in my own words. Sometimes we do a disservice when we say, “Get The Book of Mormon, pray about it and then pay attention to how you feel.” That is one thing we should do. However, that’s not what Moroni is telling us to do here. Moroni is saying, “Get The Book of Mormon, ponder these stories, how merciful God’s been. Let that rest in your heart. Ask God if that’s not true.” And one of the ways you’re going to know it’s true is that he’s going to manifest to you through the gifts of the Spirit, certain things in your life that number one in particular in verse six point you to Christ. Instead of asking, how do I feel? Ask, did this point me to Christ?

  00:38:31 Did this help me to understand the Savior, his teachings, his ministry, his mercy, his grace better? Did it make me love God? And then the second thing we should start to ask is, and did I start to have certain gifts of the Spirit manifest in my life as I read this book? Now we can go into those gifts, but there are things like, man, have I been filled with knowledge? Have I been filled with wisdom? Have I started to see miracles in my life? Have I started to speak with the tongue of angels? I can speak and understand truth? Have I seen healing come to my soul or my mind or my body through these words? That is a broader way of getting a witness of the truthfulness of these things. Then I prayed about it and I got a really powerful spiritual experience.

  00:39:25 Now, I want to be very clear here, I’m not undercutting that. There have been too many countless saints and friends of the church and people who have read these potent words, who have kneeled down and like Parley P. Pratt, overnight, they have been so filled with spiritual experiences that they know the book’s true. There seems to be a broader thing that he’s teaching here, that he’s saying, “As you’re pondering and reading these things, pay attention to the fruits that are produced in your life, not just a feeling.” We can’t reduce the Holy Ghost down to feeling.

  00:40:06 I often give what I like to call the tripod of truth, which the Holy Ghost will speak to our mind and our heart as section eight verse two and three says, but it also produces a certain fruit in our life, mind, heart and fruit. By fruit I mean things that are good, more Christ-like and more kind and more merciful and charitable and loving. We have more divine experiences in our life, more revelations and miracles and gifts and he seems to be saying, when you see these things manifest in your life, you’re going to know that what I’ve taught you in this book about the mercy of God is true.

John Bytheway: 00:40:47 I love that you could start with in verse six, did it point me to Christ? Thank you for showing me that. That’s so good. I remember reading recently about mission president seminars in the church news and how the first presidency was teaching, the point of missionary work is not to add more members to the church. The point is to bring people to Christ and then we hope down the road they’ll join the church, but the point is to bring them to Christ. I really like that.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:41:16 Yeah, that’s something where we’ve done a little bit of a disservice I feel like to the current generation where we say, “The Holy Ghost will speak through your thoughts and your feelings.” Then they get millions of thoughts and millions of feelings and they don’t know how to discern which is theirs and which is from God. A litmus test is instead of only asking what am I thinking and feeling, ask this central question, how is this leading me to learn about and rely upon and love and follow Jesus Christ and become more like him?

  00:41:53 If what I’m doing, if what I’m learning, if what I’m thinking, if I lay the premise of is it pointing me to Christ to learn of him and become more like him, then that’s when you know the Holy Ghost is working in your life. Rather than only asking, what am I thinking and feeling? Moroni seems to be pointing us right from the get-go, “Did you come unto Christ through this book or through this Spirit and if the answer is yes, then that’s a manifestation that it’s true because Jesus is the truth.” “I am the way, the truth, the life.”

Hank Smith: 00:42:27 Wouldn’t you say that, yes, the Holy Ghost can manifest through thoughts and feelings but also experiences?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:42:36 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:42:37 You’ll see more miracles, you’ll feel more healing.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:42:42 The first time I really sought for my own witness of The Book of Mormon, I remember I was expecting to read through the whole book and come to Moroni 10 and kneel down and pray and have my heart be lit on fire. I had what seemed to be an anticlimactic experience when I came to Moroni 7 about how do you judge if things are good or not? The Spirit whispered to me, “As you’ve been reading this book for months, your mind has been enlightened. You have felt repeatedly the influence of the Spirit. You’re more full of love, you’re more patient, you’re more kind, you’re more willing to serve. You feel stronger. You have more hope. You don’t need to even kneel down and ask me if this is true, you already know. You just had an experience as you pondered all these things in your heart over the last few months.” I didn’t even need to kneel down when I got to Moroni 10 because I had had an experience where these fruits of the Spirit, these gifts of the Spirit have been made manifest in my life.

Hank Smith: 00:43:50 I have learned for myself, I have seen for myself, I have experienced for myself and I would add, John, a statement we’ve used before, a person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an opinion.

John Bytheway: 00:44:08 And I’m thinking of Sariah. Sariah didn’t say, “Now I know because I had a burning in the bosom, now I know because I felt right.” She said, “Now I know the Lord hath commanded my husband because her boys came over the hill with the plates of brass.” And for her it was an experience. Maybe she had other experiences too. I think that’s another thing Anthony, I’m glad you said is that there are some people who have knelt down after reading it, but for a lot of people it might be different. I didn’t learn by a feeling I learned by an experience that I had or I went on a mission and I learned in the process of that mission or something like that. The Lord has all sorts of different ways he can communicate with us.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:44:51 And this is why it’s so important that acknowledging all of those who do have that immediate experience, but sometimes if we say to people, read this book or these chapters and then pray about it, and then the next day we say, “So, what was…” And if they’re like, “Well, nothing yet.” Well, let’s not let that rattle our faith or don’t let that rattle their faith either if we’re understanding that the fruits of the Spirit, they take time to grow. Sometimes things take time to manifest in our life, which is why we have to keep exercising faith.

  00:45:29 What we need to do is instead of getting disheartened, encourage them to stay in these beautiful powerful words of this Book of Mormon and over process of time, it will swell in their hearts. It will enlighten their minds. It will become sweet and they’ll taste and they’ll have their own experience where they can say, “Yeah, I do know that this is true.” And that’s why we have to connect verse Moroni 3 to 5 with the list of spiritual gifts of pointing to Christ in verse six and the list of spiritual gifts because we’re looking for these fruits.

  00:46:08 I one time did a summary of the gifts of the Spirit in one of the books that I wrote, and I’m just going to read a quick summary so that people can see what kind of fruits we should be looking for. In verse nine, Moroni says to teach the word of wisdom. This is the spiritual gift to correctly apply knowledge and to understand the proper course of action to take because The Book of Mormon helped what course of action to take. That’s wisdom or you might have the gift to teach the word of knowledge. Now, Moroni is adding teach, some of it could be I have the gift to teach these things, but the word of knowledge is in my mind the spiritual gift to study and learn and understand and retain truth. Has The Book of Mormon helped you to understand and retain more truth in your life or verse 11, exceedingly great faith to be healed?

  00:47:06 We often think of physical healing, but I would add a definition this way. This is a spiritual gift to deeply trust in the Lord even in the most trying of circumstances resulting in spiritual, emotional, and physical healing. Has The Book of Mormon and its words helped you to learn to trust in the Lord and had His Spirit heal your soul in some way or even a miraculous physical healing? Verse 11, the gift of healing. To me, that’s the spiritual gift, to be a conduit to pass on the healing effects of the Holy Ghost to other people who are in spiritual, emotional and physical pain. Has The Book of Mormon helped you ever know what to say or what to share or what to quote or teach that brought healing to somebody else physically, spiritually, or emotionally? Verse 12, the working of mighty miracles. I wrote, this is the spiritual gift to cause the heavens to listen to your voice and bring the seemingly impossible into effect.

  00:48:09 Has the words and teachings of The Book of Mormon ever helped bring miraculous things that you did not think were possible into your life or the life of others? Verse 13, the gift to prophesy of all things, the spiritual gift to see into the future catching glimpses of what is yet to come, to prepare you. Has The Book of Mormon or through the spirit of that book, has it helped you to catch a glimpse of what you need to do that’s coming in order to prepare or to serve or to live or to be better? Verse 14, beholding of angels and ministering spirits. That’s the spiritual gift to part the veil to commune with the divine and to discern what is and is not of God. Has The Book of Mormon helped you to do that where you felt like the ministering of angels and the spirit and the part and the veil has gotten thin when you’ve been in these potent words?

  00:49:04 Verse 15, “All kinds of tongues.” Now, we often think of this as speaking other languages and I don’t want to shortchange it, that’s part of it, but broader the spiritual gift to speak in a celestial language, to express heavenly concepts or to clearly communicate gospel truths in a way that’s understandable to those that do not speak and understand the way that you do. You can have the gift of tongues English to English or Spanish to Spanish. It doesn’t have to be English to Spanish or Spanish to English.

  00:49:37 Has The Book of Mormon ever given you phrases and ways and words and concepts so that you could communicate in ways that are understandable? And then last, the interpretation of languages and all kinds of tongues in verse 16. I wrote down the spiritual gift to translate, understand and correctly interpret what has been spoken by others as they spoke it under the influence of the Spirit. Have you ever heard these words and gone, “Oh man, I get it”? Those are some, there’s diverse ways as the scriptures say that the Spirit can manifest these things. But those are the kind of things that we should be looking for as we’ve studied these words, to know that God is working and pointing to us to truth in what Moroni and Mormon and Nephi and others have written.

Hank Smith: 00:50:29 Anthony, that is wonderful. To tie what we call Moroni’s promise to the gifts of the Spirit, that’s a life-changing insight to me. Now, you can point out all the different ways that the Holy Ghost will manifest instead of pinpointing a certain experience, kind of saying, “This is what will happen.” It’s more of, “Okay, what happened to you?”

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:50:55 “What happened? How did you see it?” As I was prepping to talk with you guys today, the Spirit led me to connect those two. As I was asking why did Moroni go from his promise to these gifts of the Spirit? I started to see that connection almost like, “Don’t pigeonhole me.” And it’s important in verse 17, all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ and they come unto every man severally according as he will.

Hank Smith: 00:51:22 Severally.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:51:23 And there’s a lot of ways that we can unpack that, meaning there are several gifts, there’s several ways that this can be manifest, to use that word, but it will be a manifestation if you’re looking for it in some way. And the other thing that I would just as a total side tangent right here. Notice how many times he says, by the Spirit, by the Spirit, by the Spirit. Verse 17, the Spirit of Christ. These are spiritual gifts, meaning they come by virtue of the Holy Ghost. If somebody out there reads Moroni 10 and goes, “Oh, good, we’re going to have a lesson on spiritual gifts.” Let’s not confuse the gifts that come from the Holy Ghost with our talents that we develop over time and practice.

  00:52:08 Now, the Holy Ghost can enhance those, but if you want to litmus test, if something is a gift of the Spirit, ask yourself this question. If I lose the Spirit, do I lose the ability? If the answer is yes, then you know it’s a gift of the Spirit and the beauty of that is it means that any of these gifts can be given to anyone. You don’t have to have a particular talent set with your fingers to have this gift. God can give these gifts to anybody severally as he will.

Hank Smith: 00:52:42 One of my favorite references to the Holy Ghost is in Doctrine and Covenants 11 verses 12 and 13, easy to remember. 11, 12, 13.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:52:48 11, 12, 13.

Hank Smith: 00:52:51 Where the Lord says, “Put your trust in that Spirit, which leadeth to do good, to do justly,” which I think to have integrity, “To walk humbly and to judge righteously.” He bookends it with, “This is my Spirit.” So here’s the Spirit. These few things, this is my Spirit. For a youth, I might be able to maybe simplify this just a little bit and say, “As you’ve read The Book of Mormon, have you wanted to do more good? Have you wanted to be more honest? Have you wanted to be more humble and teachable?” That could be Anthony, a manifestation of the Spirit.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:53:28 I love that. That is such a great way to put it in a palatable language for somebody. Have you felt to be kinder, more loving, more just? Hank, as you were saying that I had an experience when I was a teenager where I used to have a bad temper, if you can believe that or not. One time I got so mad at my parents over something and I stormed down to my room in the basement and slammed the door, and as I was huffing and puffing, I actually grabbed some stuff and threw it and knocked some things over, and I reached to grab something in anger and I happened to pick up my scriptures. I had enough sense to not throw my scriptures, and so instead I just sat down with them on my bed at the edge of my bed in a huff, and I opened them up and I started reading The Book of Mormon.

  00:54:28 Now, it was totally unintentional, but as I read The Book of Mormon, I suddenly got lost in its words. I still to this day remember the Spirit that came over me and the Spirit that came over me was exactly what you just said. It replaced my angry, wrathful, vengeful spirit, violent spirit that was in me with the spirit to do good. Suddenly I felt calm, I felt repentant, I felt apologetic. I felt a need to be teachable. I remember I went up and apologized, and that was a fruit of The Book of Mormon. Now, that didn’t give me my testimony of the book, but that’s an example of that’s the Spirit, the leads to do good of a manifestation of it.

Hank Smith: 00:55:22 I can hear a missionary or a youth when someone says, “Well, I know Joseph Smith is a sinner,” and they say something similar to the blind man. “Well, whether he is a sinner or not, I know not.” Here’s what I know. I was reading The Book of Mormon and here’s what happened.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:55:40 I love it.

Hank Smith: 00:55:41 Anthony, I’d like to go backwards to verse four, the famous verse four. And I’d like to ask you what you think it means when Moroni adds, “Ask if these things are not true, and if you will ask with a sincere heart, with real intent having faith in Christ,” that’s sometimes missing from our Moroni’s challenge. Read it, pray about it, the Holy Ghost will tell you. Well, there’s a little bit more. Pray about it with a sincere heart, with real intent having faith in Christ. Any thoughts?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:56:15 It’s a little bit like sometimes when we have discussions with students, you can tell the ones that are sincerely wanting to understand and sometimes it’s more rare luckily, but the ones who are just trying to dig in their heels or prove a point or that they’re not to be moved, they’ve made up their mind. There’s not a real intent to obey the truth, there’s an intent to prove their point. I do think there’s something here where the Lord has to say, “Hey, when you’re exploring the tender mercies of God, you’ve got to lay every weapon of war down and be willing to accept the truth even if it’s contrary to what you had supposed.”

  00:57:04 Otherwise, I’ve had those experiences before where I can tell people just want to fight or they just want to prove a point or defend. But if I can sense that somebody doesn’t have an intent to understand, then I don’t even have the conversation. And on a broader level, I could almost see the Lord going, “You’re not in the right spirit of faith or willingness to obey what I’m going to tell you, so I’ll have that conversation later when you’re ready.”

John Bytheway: 00:57:33 I’m reminded of Alma 32, “Have you given place?” You creating a space, could this possibly be true? I would love to know this. Some people I think have already made up their minds that I don’t want to believe this, and so I’ll say that I prayed about it. That doesn’t sound like a sincere heart with real intent.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:57:55 Until you’re getting at the point of I will give away all my sins to know thee.

John Bytheway: 00:57:59 The King Lamoni’s father thing.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 00:58:01 Then the Lord starts to say, “Okay, let me manifest to you then,” when you’re at that point.

John Bytheway: 00:58:07 Getting your heart right, we’ve got the gratitude, how merciful God has been and then getting to this point where I sincerely want to know and I really intend to change if I need to, and here’s all the ways the Lord could manifest that to you. I love that.

Hank Smith: 00:58:25 One of my earliest memories of the profound experience with the Holy Ghost, I was in high school, I think ninth or 10th grade, I was doing what my seminary teacher had taught me to do, which is read The Book of Mormon, ask about it. I would read and then I would kneel down and ask about it, and I was almost giving God his cue. Like, “I’m kneeling down, God, tell me if this is true. Hit it. I am ready. Music, angels, here we go. I’m ready.” And nothing would ever happen. I remember once falling asleep and waking up still kneeling down, and I think honestly, I gave up after a while thinking, “Well, I don’t know what that’s about.” Well, then my dad had this odd thing that he would do when I called him for a ride. This is back when the phone was attached to the house.

  00:59:17 When I say, “Dad, can you come pick me up?” He’d say, “Yep. On my way, start walking.” I don’t know why he’d say that because I wouldn’t cover very much ground, but maybe he just wanted to give me time to walk, I don’t know. This one time it was late at night, I said, “Dad, can you come pick me up?” So I started walking. I’m all alone. I wasn’t thinking about God, give me an answer, I was more thinking about life. I was looking up at the stars, thinking about life and wondering about what’s my place? Do I have a place? Then I received what I was looking for. It was overwhelming, I still remember it.

  00:59:59 I think the Lord was saying, “Oh now, now it’s a sincere heart. Now it’s real intent. Don’t force me into a moment.” I don’t know exactly how to explain that, John, but that was a moment for me of sincere heart, real intent, and wow it was real and it was powerful. I’ve had many experiences like that since then, but that moment was overwhelming to me. Oh, and I’ll tell you this, I got home, went to my bedside and said, “Okay, let’s do that again.” And nothing, nothing. Like, ah, yep.

John Bytheway: 01:00:38 Well, he’ll answer you in his own time. And sometimes it’s not until the fourth watch, to use another metaphor, when you don’t expect it. But say it again, Hank, you were thinking about life and?

Hank Smith: 01:00:52 Life, my place in it.

John Bytheway: 01:00:53 That’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 01:00:55 And I think The Book of Mormon caused me to think about those things more. It had to be sincere. And maybe it was sincere before, but it was also just curious, like a curious heart. Like, “Hey, is this going to work? Right. Am I going to get one of those experiences that everybody talks about?” And I think the Lord’s like, “Look, I’m not here to satisfy your curiosity.” And I like what both of you said there too. I intend to do everything that comes with the answer I’m seeking.

John Bytheway: 01:01:28 That’s an act in faith type of thing.

Hank Smith: 01:01:30 Yeah. Wouldn’t you both say, if I don’t intend to do what comes with this answer, wouldn’t you say it’s merciful for the Lord to not give me?

John Bytheway: 01:01:37 To not tell you, because he’d be accountable.

Hank Smith: 01:01:42 Right. He’s like, “Oh, you don’t intend to do anything or you don’t intend to do what would come with this. So I don’t think it’s wise to give you this answer right now.” And maybe that’s one thing we need to teach is you need to be ready to do everything that comes with that answer. Think about it. Think, am I ready to do everything that comes with?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 01:02:03 That willingness, that readiness to respond to the revelation that comes through the gift of the Spirit. I love that Moroni takes a cue here from other great writers like Paul and as the Lord’s going to reveal to Joseph in section 46, and he’s obviously going to take this from his father. In Moroni 7, he quotes the sermon by his father at the synagogue about faith, hope, and charity. And the greatest gifts as the Apostle Paul says, are faith, hope, and charity. I could have all of these experiences or these gifts, these miraculous divine interventions in my life, but ultimately if they don’t leave me to have faith and hope and charity, then I am nothing.

  01:02:51 He says in verse 19, “I would exhort you my beloved brethren that you remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away even as long as the world shall stand only according to the belief of the children of men. So wherefore, there must be faith and if there be faith, there must be hope. And if there must be hope, there must also be charity. And except ye have charity, ye can in no wise be saved in the kingdom of God. Neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith, neither can ye if ye have no hope.”

  01:03:40 I just want to touch on those a little bit because those are the three great gifts Doctrine and Covenants Section four says that those are what qualify us to do the work of the Lord, faith, hope, charity and love with an eye single to the glory of God qualify us for the work. In Ether it says, “Faith, hope, and charity bringeth unto me the fountain of all righteousness.” Alma says, “See that ye have faith, hope, and charity and ye will always abound in good works.” These are the gifts. Moroni told us quoting his Father Mormon to pray with all of the energy of soul that were filled with these three gifts.

  01:04:19 Sometimes in being somebody who loves art and usually in Christian art, faith, hope, and charity, they’re always portrayed as female. They’re usually called the three sisters. I love that because it’s trying to teach us something about these three great gifts. My three oldest children are girls and they’re all adults now. But when I teach about this, I’ll put up a picture of my three girls and I’ll say, “These are my three oldest daughters and guess what their names are,” and inevitably I just set the students up and they’ll go, “Faith, Hope and Charity?” And I’ll go, “No, Lauren, Reagan and Jane. But if you want to name your girls Faith, Hope, and Charity, you go right ahead.”

  01:05:04 I show them that because I’m like, “Do you see how my three daughters are each unique, but you can tell they’re related in the same way the gifts of faith, hope, and charity are related?” If you have faith, it will produce hope. If you have hope, then you’ll experience charity. They’re different gifts, but they’re related. I like to define faith as trust-based action in Christ. Hope is a personal assurance that God will fulfill his promises to us through Christ. Charity is having a loving relationship with God through the grace of Christ. They’re all centered in Christ, but one of them is trust, one of them leads to hope in the promises, and one of them leads to love. I give the analogy of jumping off the edge of the pool to your parent. When you place a little kid on the edge of the pool and you say, jump to me, and you create that little gap so they’re a little bit nervous and they don’t want to drown and be dropped, and you encourage and encourage and encourage, but you leave a little bit of that discomfort.

  01:06:26 Faith is to have such confidence and trust that you will leap. You will take that step into the unknown because you trust the person and you trust Christ. In this analogy, he’s the father in the water. And then hope is when you are caught, you know that he is good for his promises, you know he will support and deliver what he’s promised. That’s the gift of hope. Charity is feeling that loving embrace, that hug that I love you, you’re my child. If you have those three, you will do the work of the Lord, you will always abound in good works and it will lead you to the fountain of all righteousness. Now, that’s why he says, if you don’t, in verse 22, you’re going to be in despair. If you’re not having faith, hope and charity, it’s only because of wickedness. You’re not willing to trust God, you’re not willing to act. You’re not willing to take those steps because otherwise you would know of his promises and of his love.

Hank Smith: 01:07:34 Don’t the scriptures say that charity is the greatest of all? So I think your three daughters are going to ask you after this, “Which one am I?” Anthony, I remember you telling me once it was years ago, you said, the difference between faith and hope to you was Christ can save everyone. That’s faith.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 01:07:56 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:07:56 Hope, do you remember?

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 01:07:58 Yeah, it’s Christ will save me. Faith says God answers prayers. Hope says God answers my prayers. It’s personal. This is the tree of life. I step onto the path in trust. I grab onto the rod of these promises and I eat of that fruit, that love of God. We don’t often say it that way, but Lehi ate charity and it filled his soul with love. The reason why we sometimes confuse charity with loving other people and doing charitable actions is because the moment Lehi ate the love of God, what did he want to do? He inherently wanted to share it.

  01:08:44 Moroni 7:45 is giving us the effects of charity that when you taste the love of God, then you’ll suffer long and be kind and envy not, and be not puffed up, and you won’t be selfish and you won’t be easily provoked. That’s not saying try with a lot of mental energy to do those things. He seems to be saying, taste of the love of God, taste of the fruit of the tree of life. And if you get that in your soul back to fruits of the Spirit, the greatest fruit will be charity and you’ll find yourself full of patience and long-suffering and gentleness and meekness and love unfeigned.

Hank Smith: 01:09:29 Both of you remember the Challenge to Become one of the most quoted talks from President Oaks back in 2000. He quotes Moroni here, the reason charity never fails, and the reason charity is greater than even the most significant acts of goodness, is that charity, the pure love of Christ is not an act, but a condition or state of being. Charity is something one becomes.

Dr. Anthony Sweat: 01:09:58 Yes. Amen. That’s spot on.