John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Larry Nelson, Mormon 1 through 6.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 00:06 Scholars who publish research about the games that we play and the things that we watch, they get a lot of pushback. Nobody wants to think that what they watch or play is affecting them. Arguably, the thing that scholars who study media violence here the most is I play violent video games, and I haven’t killed anybody. Well, give that individual a prize. What an incredibly huge accomplishment. You have restrained yourself enough after playing a video game that you haven’t killed anybody.

  00:37 Well, that obviously settles it. Mormon was wrong. God was wrong. There is no need to discuss violence. Do you remember this science experiment as a kid that we found so fascinating when we were young where we would take a white flower, and you’d put those flowers in different containers of water, colored water? And over time by being in that environment, what happened to the flowers?

John Bytheway: 01:07 They changed color.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 01:09 They took on the color of the environments they were in. Let me share just a few quick studies thinking about this from a spiritual perspective. A few studies. I wish I could claim them as mine. They’re not. They’re brilliantly done, but I’d like to share a few.

  01:29 In this first study, the researchers measured mood, simply mood in a group of university students playing a violent video game for 15 minutes versus a group that played a bowling game, and then asked them to report their mood. Violent video game participants after just 15 minutes reported more feelings of anger, annoyance, and irritation, just 15 minutes. What of the environment that started to seep in?

  02:00 In study two, researchers measured something called cardiac coherence. This is simply a measure of stress, which is when our breathing and our heart rate aren’t in synchrony. They had one group play violent video games. Another play nonviolent video games for 20 minutes. The group with violent video games produced greater cardiac incoherence. Their heart and their breathing after just 20 minutes weren’t there. So little things that we may not think are big, but I want us to see it’s impacting, even our physiology when we are immersing ourselves in an environment of violence and vengeance.

  02:46 In a third study, since researchers can’t conduct experiments in which people may actually be hurt, the people who studied this had to be clever. In one study, participants were told that they were playing against a stranger in another city. Half the group was playing nonviolent video games like a skateboarding or soccer game, and half played violent video games.

  03:13 After playing, participants were asked how much they identified with the character in the game, how much they respected, wanted to copy their behaviors, be like them. Then they were told that if they want to, they could give the person they were playing the stranger in another city, a blast of loud noise through their headphones. So they could pick whether to blast them with a loud sound, how long to blast it and how loud to blast the other person with this sound.

  03:45 They were told that the sound could range from one to 10, but that anything above an eight could cause permanent hearing damage. The results, those playing nonviolent video games who identified with nonviolent characters blasted their opponents with loud sounds at substantially lower rates, while an increase in identifying with violent characters led to increases in blasting the opponents with noise. And this is just incredible, with those who identified the most with violent characters blasting their opponents with noise on an average of nine on the sound level. Remember, they were told that eight and above could cause permanent hearing damage, higher rates of identifying with violence, higher rates of blasting, and higher volumes of blasting.

  04:40 And finally, last one, participants played a pro-social game, game where you were helping some played that pro-social game. Some played a neutral game, and others played a violent game. Then they were shown three levels of a, it’s called a tangram puzzle, but a puzzle to be solved. They could be easy, medium or hard. And they were told that their partner will get $10 if they can solve the puzzle in 10 minutes. And you, they were told, get to choose which puzzle they have to solve, an easy, medium or hard puzzle.

  05:16 So if you care about the other person, you’re going to give them an easy puzzle so they can get $10. Those who viewed pro-social or positive games assigned easier puzzles, neutral, less easy. And the violent viewers assigned the hardest puzzles. They weren’t as helpful. They weren’t as kind.

  05:39 Again, this is about our spiritual state as we are letting the environment of violence and vengeance start to color us, referring back to the analogy with the flowers. And the sad thing is that many of us don’t think that this could be impacting us in these ways. It impacts other people, but not us. A study was done with about 700 college students, and they were asked these questions. First, how many of you believe that violent video games harm children? And the response could be a, one, doesn’t harm them at all. Five, a lot.

  06:19 And when asked about children, almost everybody agreed the average was over a four that, yeah, it harms children. Then they were asked, “How many of you believe that violent video games harms everybody?” The average response dropped to about a three and a half. Then they were asked, “How many of you believe that violent video games harm the average college student?” It remained just above a three. So it harms, but then how many of you believe that violent video games harm you? Now, the average was about a two.

  06:59 It affects children. It affects students. It affects other people, but not me. We often claim that we are the exception that it won’t happen to me, that it doesn’t apply to me, especially when it comes to things like this, sound like the epitome of what we learn in the Book of Mormon, that Satan will pacify and lull them away into carnal security and leadeth them away carefully down to hell. Again, if we open ourselves up to the reflective process, we’ve done it with the use of money. We’ve done it with learning and so many other things. But on this very thing that the Lord talks about corrupting the earth and violence, are we willing to do it?

  07:48 There’s no need to get defensive or angry. Make it a matter of personal prayer, pondering and reflection. How am I in regard to violence? And this applies to the extent that we may delight in our weapons of war, literally and metaphorically. How much have we put actual weapons of war in the forefront of our values, our beliefs, our entertainment, our financial expenditures?

  08:16 Remember, this is about our spiritual state. He asked us to consider what we delight in regarding shedding blood and laying down our weapons of war. It’s a spiritual matter. Satan has promised that he’s going to try to reign with blood and horror on the earth. What do we delight in?

  08:36 One of the things in this spiritual self-reflection that we should all think about in regard to our choice of technology and media and where we spend our time is an analogy I like to think about when the saints found themselves in Winter Quarters, in the early days of the church, they were given the charge to get to Zion. Well, as those saints thought about getting to Zion, there were two ways that would make sure that they never ended up in Zion. One is if they took the wrong path, a path that led them somewhere else. The other is if they never got up and left Winter Quarters.

  09:12 Sometimes, our choice of technology, of media, of how we spend our time, sometimes, it’s the content that we need to be worried about, the violence, the pornography, whatever it may entail. That’s the wrong path. But sometimes, we just have to be honest and spiritually self-reflective and say, “This isn’t getting me up and moving. I’m not progressing.”

  09:38 The time that we spend in these things is the equivalent of staying in Winter Quarters, and we’ll never make it to Zion with that. Indeed, it’s very interesting when we think about that idleness doing that something that is not helping us progress. I return to the Anti-Nephi-Lehies again. One of the parts of their covenant is that they would work with their hands and cease to be idle. There’s a connection here between covenant keeping, not being violent, and working. Oftentimes, the inordinate amount of time that we spend with technology, media in whatever form keeps us from doing things that would help us progress.

  10:25 Maybe, in your life, you don’t have to worry about the wrong path. Maybe, you do, the content involved. But maybe, it’s just about the time involved in those things. Let’s all get on the right path. Get up. Leave Winter Quarters, make our way to Zion. This is about spiritual self-reflection. I have to do this. I’m an outdoorsman. I pay for television and streaming services in my home. There are gaming consoles in my home as an outdoorsman and as a person who makes choices every day on what to watch on my streaming services, read in my books, and play on my gaming consoles. I have to ask these questions every day as part of my spiritual self-assessment. Have I let violence and instruments of violence become too much a part of my life, of how I spend my time, my money, and my focus? What do I delight in? Where’s my heart? Who am I becoming?

Hank Smith: 11:24 Larry, I really like this. John frequently reminds me that an airplane is off course most of the time, but get those corrections. Stay close to where you’re supposed to be. This lesson can be instead of a, “Whoa, that’s not true about me.” It can be a, “There are some things that I have let slip. Maybe, I can turn that around.” I know. I have four boys. Sometimes with those boys, I, “Hey, let’s watch this violent television show or let’s play this violent game.”

Dr. Larry Nelson: 11:58 Bless you some would say, “Well, saying something against the military,” that’s not true. I am so, so grateful to the men and women who take up arms to defend me and my family and keep my daily life free from the atrocities of war and violence. I’m so grateful to them because they not only sacrifice so I don’t have to experience those things, their sacrifice goes on for a long time, not just during active service.

  12:29 Stats vary, but our veterans will experience some level of PTSD. A male combat veterans marriage has a 62% higher likelihood of divorce than other men, staggering problems of death by suicide and homelessness. Even if none of these happened to individuals, they miss valuable time in their marriages with their children and family members, and friends. And they’ll never get that time back. And they made that sacrifice for me. And now, what do I do with their sacrifice? By inviting the violence that they’re protecting me from into my home because it does affect these incredible individuals who have offered so much to support my freedoms.

  13:16 I can attest to that sacrifice. This past summer, I led a study abroad in one of the places that we were with Sarajevo. So we stood on the spot where a man chose to use violence to kill Franz Ferdinand, the archduke of Austria, that set in motion the events that led to the start of World War I. And the ripple effects of that person’s choice affected countless individuals including the ripples of that choice all the way to my doorstep.

  13:49 My grandfather in Ogden, Utah was affected because of that man’s choice to pick up a weapon and take a life. My grandfather served in World War I. I’ve read and reread the letters that he wrote home, and there was a moment in his letters where the tone and content of the letters change. And we finally find out why in one of the letters. He briefly mentioned it almost in passing, but that he had been injured in battle. He’d been exposed to some gas agent.

  14:22 My grandfather remained the good man that he was. There are stories of acts of service he would render to those on his postal route as a postman, especially when it involved getting letters as quickly as possible from individuals serving our country to their families. But there are also stories of how he withdrew inward, was less emotionally available, didn’t display some of the same musical talents after the war that he did before.

  14:52 My grandfather left part of himself on the battlefield of Europe, and his family members never got those pieces back. I wonder what my family, my grandmother, my dad, my sweet aunt and all of us grandkids, I wonder what we lost on the battlefield of France. I’m proud to come from a grandfather who fought for his country. He carried that the rest of his life. And as a result, we all lost part of him because of that violence.

  15:27 For me, at least, it’s a disrespect to my grandfather and every other service woman or man who fights to keep violence from my doorstep for me to then let it in other ways that I don’t carefully and prayerfully reflect about, to see if I need to make a one-degree course correction. In the same way I do about money, my pride about being educated and shunning pornography and every other evil influence, I have an obligation, I believe, to follow the admonition of Mormon and truly meekly and prayerfully ask myself the extent to which I may delight in violence and instruments of violence, whether they be technological media or actual. It’s a spiritual matter that Mormon is warning us about.

Hank Smith: 16:18 Larry, I find this fascinating that you’re drawing this principle out of these chapters. I’m seeing it differently. John, I’d be interested in what you have to say because I know you wrote a couple of books about supersonic saints. Say that fast a couple of times. I know your dad fought in World War II. I also know that you are a war history buff. Tell me what your thoughts are as Larry’s been teaching us here.

John Bytheway: 16:42 I am in total agreement. I think the word that Mormon used and that Larry is pointing out is what they’re delighting in. When I’ve read the Isaiah chapters, and I read about turning their swords into plowshares, I think about how many farming implements could be made out of an aircraft carrier. And I tell my class, “I just want to keep one F-16. I don’t want to shoot anybody. I just want something grossly overpowered.”

  17:12 But that phrase, delighting in bloodshed, is the critical one there. I’m going to read now from Mormon abridging the war chapters in Alma 48. This is verse 21, “But as I have said in the latter end of the 19th year, yea notwithstanding their peace amongst themselves, they were compelled reluctantly to contend with their brethren, the Lamanites. Yea and in fine, their wars never did cease for the space of many years with the Lamanites, notwithstanding their much reluctance. Now, they were sorry to take up arms against the Lamanites because they did not delight in the shedding of blood.

  17:53 Yea, and this was not all. They were sorry to be the means of sending so many of their brethren out of this world into an eternal world unprepared to meet their God.” That captures what does a man or woman of Christ do in a time where they have to defend their families? Do they delight in that, or are they sorry and reluctant because they do not delight in it? I’m grateful those verses are there.

  18:24 Then you read in verse 24, “Nevertheless, they could not suffer to lay down their lives that their wives and their children should be massacred by the barbarous cruelty of those who were once their brethren.” Those two words, reluctance and sorrow and not delighting in the shedding of blood seemed to be Mormon’s own answer to that. In fact, I remember one of the stories of an F-100 pilot, his name was Tad Derrick passed away a year or two ago.

  18:52 He became a mission president in Pennsylvania. His wingman had to eject and was down in the Mekong River. He gets on the radio. First, he had already asked for a rescue helicopter. And then he saw the boats. He said, “These boats have turned toward my wingman” I don’t know if they’re fishermen or if they are running guns up the river. What do I do?” Command said, “Use your discretion.” He said, “I needed an answer right now.” I said, “Heavenly father, I don’t want to kill innocent fishermen,” which I loved because he sounded like Captain Moroni. I did not delight in bloodshed.

  19:30 But I have to say, “John, what do I do?” And he said, “The answer I got was immediate. The answer was, ‘You don’t have to kill anybody. You can scare them off.'” And he said, “I almost forgot I was in a fighter jet.” He came down by these boats and came down really close and pulled up and let them know back off, don’t touch my wingman until the rescue helicopters finally held up and rescued him. But I loved his character, Brother Derrick, because he said, “I don’t want to kill anybody. I’ve got to save John.”

Hank Smith: 20:03 One of the memories that came to my mind from growing up in St. George, I had to be under 12 years old. I still remember this. It was such a moment for me. I was at a funeral of a neighbor. I’d gone with my parents. We were at the graveside service. He had served in the military. There were some older military men there, and they came in their uniforms. But I still remember this. They had the John, you’d probably know what it’s called, like a 21-gun salute.

John Bytheway: 20:30 Yeah. Some veterans came and did a salute to my dad as well. Shot the guns in the air.

Hank Smith: 20:37 That’s what exactly it was. This neighbor of mine, he didn’t die in combat. He was older, but I still remember this. They fired the guns, and one of those older soldiers yelled and dropped to the ground.

John Bytheway: 20:50 Wow.

Hank Smith: 20:52 And I remember he yelled almost like in terror. He yelled and dropped to the ground and someone else came over and helped him back up, and he looked a little flustered. And I looked at my dad, and he said, “It’s okay. That’s what happens.”

John Bytheway: 21:07 Yeah. Hank, you mentioned my dad. Those loud noises, he was on a carrier that was attacked by suicide bombers, and he saw tremendous violence, and it affected him. We think he had PTSD before they knew what to call it. And I remember hearing him when I was a kid talking about the enemy then and saying, “They didn’t want to be here. I didn’t want to be here.”

  21:33 And I thought it was a very mature attitude for him at such a young age. These poor guys, they don’t want to be out here. I don’t want to be out here. Such a thrill that my dad got to send my brother to Japan after all of that and how thrilled he was when Kendrick opened his mission call to Sapporo, Japan. And my dad was like, “You’re going for a totally different reason than I went,” and that was cool to see that reaction in my dad who dated his post and fought for his life during an attack. Talk about violence.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 22:06 In our desire to give all the gratitude that is deserved, which is never enough for those who have fought, that can’t be a deflection of this spiritual question we have to ask ourselves because it is in the very nature of respecting them and giving our gratitude that we recognized that they had to place themselves in a context of violence that affected them and others so powerfully. That is the very thing that underscores what Mormon is saying, and that’s examine yourself. Do not let violence and the love of it delighting in any way, shape or form become part of it because it destroys lives.

Hank Smith: 22:57 Larry, talk to me as the listener. I’ve calmed back my defenses because at first I’m going, “Well, well, here’s all the reasons. It’s fine. And this Larry guy wants to take away my fun.”

Dr. Larry Nelson: 23:09 You have to be clear. I am not asking you to bury your game consoles or weapons. Spiritual self-reflection of what you delight in. Okay. Sorry, go ahead.

Hank Smith: 23:20 I’m going to trust you here. And as a human development expert, I’ve got a lot of children, and I don’t know if it’s just my children, but they seem to really enjoy high-intensity violent games. If I were to say, “Guys, we’re going to switch to this bowling game,” I might get some resistance. So maybe, give me some counsel and advice as I move forward here.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 23:47 We talk about some practical things. I often found myself as a dad doing this, hear parents going, “Turn off the video game. Stop doing that. Get out and play.” But do we offer any alternatives? Hey, let’s go together and do this. Do we spend the resources that we did on that gaming console on a trampoline in the backyard or whatever it may be so that there are spiritually and physically healthier alternatives, helping teach children how to be aware of and monitor their own feelings and their emotions, learning to take control of that, I really want to make sure we discuss that in the time that we have left from an early age, start to monitor, have video games or whatever media, scheduled boundaries on it.

  24:44 One of the saddest things to watch is how often we as parents don’t practice what we preach and watch how media, violent or not, but media and technology can interfere with things. I’ll give a quick example of how subtle these things can be in affecting relationships for years and years and years.

  25:09 If you picture a mom feeding a child, breastfeeding or any parent with a bottle feeding a child, we often have that child, and we’re cuddling and feeding, and often talking to and maybe stroking their head while we’re doing this. And there’s just this beautiful interaction that has always occurred during feeding of young kids. But now, one of the things we’re seeing is instead of that interaction, feedings occurring while the parent is scrolling on a phone. No more the eye contact, the physical interactions, the verbal interactions. Think how subtle and small that is, but what a difference that could be for that child who’s brand new in the world and starting to form a relationship?

  25:59 If we just think about how we go about selection of media, use of technology and all those things, I think we’ll… Ways to go up, but we can certainly in the show notes, I’ll give some references to a project that I’ve a part of studied children since their first year of life. It’s called Project Media at Project Media Research, looking at the development of children in this new media saturated world that we live in and hopefully something that can be helpful.

Hank Smith: 26:34 That would be great. I find all those suggestions really helpful. I also thought this is going to be self-incriminating. But as parents, we often get our kids down their asleep, and we think, “We’ve got a half hour, 45 minutes. Why don’t we watch a little television or something?” And often, the choices are murder. This person got killed. Now, they’re going to figure out who did it.

John Bytheway: 26:58 Hank, you have to go to Mayberry sometime.

Hank Smith: 27:01 Yeah. I think to myself, “Well, maybe, instead of watching that murder mystery with that graphic murder at the beginning, then we’re trying to figure out who did it,” there may be another choice out there to go buy a season of the Andy Griffith show. Try to figure out what John sees that I do not see.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 27:21 And the overarching thing is we could get caught up. I hesitate a little bit in giving some practical advice which everybody wants, but trying to do that in the time that we have. I hesitate a little because I don’t want any of these practical moments in our daily lives try to tease them all apart. We all know how we could do better. The key thing is that self-reflection, self-assessment of I do need to. What am I delighting in?

  27:49 And if we just begin there making sure our spiritual strategy towards these things is in place, then I think our actual, how we’re going to tackle and battle these things in our lives. It has to begin with having a good spiritual strategy and asking ourselves these questions. What do I delight in? What are the weapons of war in my life that I need to lay down? How much of the environment that I’m in that’s starting to influence me is of poor quality filled with violence or whatever? And I think that’ll guide each of us in our personal lives in these moments if we start with the spiritual strategy before we move into the actual war, as it were.

Hank Smith: 28:39 In a very charged political climate, we can become maybe not violent, but we can become aggressive. This is how I’m going to resolve this conflict. I’m going to be aggressive with other people instead of thoughtful and careful.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 28:54 That’s a beautiful segue into the part of Mormon’s challenge about vengeance, not seeking vengeance. Now, turning away from acts of violence to violence we may be letting in. But once again, our heart, what we delight in, but is it filled with vengeance? When we start seeking vengeance for what has been done to us, perceived or real, we start a decline in our life, just like we saw in the book of Mormon, small B here, is that soon as they change their strategy to in vengeance go on the offensive, their decline started.

  29:34 We need to remember, when something’s done to us, it isn’t about the other person anymore, but it’s what we get to choose now will happen next for us. If something’s done to us, our response will decide our course of development of what and who we are going to become. It’s in our hands.

  29:55 Let’s refer back to the example of the color of the water seeping into the flower petals to color them. I tell family members, students, ward members have to remind myself all the time, multiple times a day, it seems, that when I respond to somebody else’s unjust, unkind, uncompassionate, un-Christ-like behavior with anger and vengeance, it allows darkness to bleed into my heart.

  30:25 The effect on our hearts of choosing anger and vengeance has a far worse impact on the darkness that fills our heart and the developmental trajectory than the actual act did. And it is usually at this point that we all experience the most dreaded symptom of spiritual disease. There may be in this regard the yes-but-they syndrome. We may hear this and say, “Yeah, but they,” and then list the number of things the other person or group or party or whatever did or the extreme nature of what they did and feel justified in saying “Yes, but they.” Does it get much worse than having women and children sacrificed by the Lamanites?

  31:10 Aren’t the Nephites justified in that with yes but they? Well, according to Mormon, he is saying, “No.” It will only hurt us if in this terrible tragedy, we respond with yes but they, because that ruins our hearts and leads us to do terrible things. The yes but they led to the complete destruction of the Nephites. So what might it do in regard to the possible total destruction of our hearts? Anger is so destructive. This is a silly example, but I remember family members playing a game one time, and somebody did something in the context of the game to set one person in our group back, and she spent the rest of the game trying to get revenge on that, so angry and trying to hurt the other person. And afterwards admitted, “Yeah, it didn’t make me feel better.” It just ruined the game and actually hurt a relationship that night.

  32:19 Anger isn’t classified clinically as an addiction, but it has many of the same properties as other behavioral or substance addictions similar to those addictions. Anger can feel good. It can activate the same reward center of the brain of certain substances so that we want it more. People, if we allow ourselves to become very, very angry because of things done to us, will start looking for more reasons to get angry, look for perceived slights, interpret things in ways that were never intended to be mean. But also, that will feel justified in feeling angry.

  33:02 Yes but they. When this happens, when we’re angry, it forces others to distance themselves from us, which we may then see as another reason to be angry without accepting any responsibility for the role that our own anger or our behavior may be playing in the situation. Anger can affect our jobs, our marriages, our relationships with other family members, friends, and neighbors.

  33:31 It affects our spiritual progress as we often direct our anger towards church leaders and our ward members. Becoming angry and seeking vengeance is not about what others did to us, yes but they. It’s about our spiritual development. Elder Renlund, one of my all-time favorite talks, Infuriating Unfairness teaches us when he said, “When faced with unfairness, we can push ourselves away from God or we can be drawn toward him for help and support.”

  34:01 For example, the prolonged warfare between the Nephites and the Lamanites affected people differently. Mormon observed that many had become hardened, while others were softened because of their afflictions insomuch that they did humble themselves before God. Do not let unfairness harden you or corrode your faith in God. Instead, ask God for help. Increase your appreciation for and reliance on the Savior rather than becoming bitter. Let Him help you become better.

  34:32 Allow Him to help you persevere, to let your afflictions be swallowed up in the joy of Christ. Join Him and His mission to heal the brokenhearted. Strive to mitigate unfairness and become a stone catcher, especially in regard to feeling angry or feeling justified because yes but they. We get caught in this back and forth of yes but you, and then in return, yeah but you, is like this rock that is indeed being thrown back faster and harder at each other with the only result being the bruises left on each other by the exchange.

  35:12 This image of catching the stone and choosing not to throw it back is powerful, stops the back and forth. It stops the bruising not only to the other person but to us. It allows healing. In that talk, Elder Renlund quotes from Bryan Stevenson, the author of Just Mercy, several times. In another place, Bryan Stevenson tells us what stone catching looks like in today’s world.

  35:43 He describes meeting an older woman in the courtroom whose grandson had been murdered some years before. She kept coming to the courtroom to provide solace for grieving families, sometimes the families of the victims and sometimes the families of the perpetrators. It’s a lot of pain.

  35:59 She said, “I decided that I was supposed to be here to catch some of the stones people cast at each other.” And it was catching the stones thrown by others that was allowing her heart to heal. How counterintuitive does that seem? Taking the stone as a way of healing and preventing your heart from being darkened. Elder Renlund said, “Brothers and sisters, not throwing stones is the first step in treating others with compassion. The second step is to try to catch stones thrown by others.”

  36:37 The vaccine against yes-but-they is yes-but-I. The anger, vengeance, and violence stops with me. Instead of attacking those who think and act differently than we do, we love them, as Mormon did and Mormon 3:12, love them. Pray to have the love for them, pray for them. Be proactive to do what it takes to develop love for others and express that love. It requires that we look at ourselves, yes-but-I. Notice in Mormon’s lament, we’ve got to hear from Mormon once more before we wrap up. If we could turn to Mormon 6:16 through 22.

Hank Smith: 37:21 Sure. Mormon’s soliloquy, some people have called it, where he looks over his people. This is verse 16. “My soul was rent with anguish because of the slain of my people, and I cried, “O ye fair ones, how could you have departed from the ways of the Lord? O ye fair ones, how could you have rejected Jesus who stood with open arms to receive you? If you had not done this, you would not have fallen. But behold, you are fallen, and I mourn your loss. You fair sons and daughters, fathers, mothers, husbands, and wives, fair ones. How is it that you could have fallen?

  37:58 But behold you are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return. And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality. These bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies, and then ye must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to your works. And if it so be that you are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you. O that you had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, you are gone. And the Father, yea the Eternal Father of heaven knoweth your state and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.”

Dr. Larry Nelson: 38:37 These are beautiful. And if you notice what’s not in there is not once did he blame the Lamanites, not once. He engaged in yes-but-we and accepted the responsibility that they, the Nephites, had both spiritually not letting God prevail in their lives, not coming to Christ, not repenting and having a vengeful heart and militarily by delighting in bloodshed, seeking vengeance and going on the offense of what these two things, bad military strategy because it was a bad spiritual strategy, had in their own destruction not anybody else but accepting responsibility.

  39:23 This was not about the Lamanites. It was about the Nephites. And notice that the Nephites development literally ended now. But we are to see that our spiritual development will do likewise when we don’t make and keep covenants, don’t come unto Christ, when we don’t repent or lay down our weapons of war, no more to delight in the shedding of blood and when we don’t stop the vengeance. Mormon is issuing the same call as our prophet President Nelson, has to become peacemakers.

  39:55 “One of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people.” He continues “the Savior’s message is clear. His true disciples build, lift, encourage, persuade, and inspire no matter how difficult the situation. True disciples of Jesus Christ are peacemakers. One of the best ways we can honor the Savior is to become a peacemaker.

  40:23 If you are serious about helping to gather Israel and about building relationships that will last throughout the eternities, now is the time to lay aside bitterness. Now is the time to cease insisting that it is your way or no way. Now is the time to stop doing things that make others walk on eggshells for fear of upsetting you. Now is the time to bury your weapons of war.

  40:48 If your verbal arsenal is filled with insults and accusations, now is the time to put them away. You will arise as a spiritually strong man or woman of Christ.” These things are about our spiritual state. And that’s why I believe Mormon conveyed it over and over and over again through what he wrote and what he chose to include in his records. Keep covenants. Come to Christ. Repent. Lay down your weapons of war. No more to delight in the shedding of blood, and stop the vengeance. So grateful for him. So grateful for him.

Hank Smith: 41:28 This topic has been fantastic. John, do you remember a couple of years ago we were studying church history? Alex Baugh, I think it was said, “One of the greatest moments in church history is really looked over is when Joseph and Hiram are killed.” The Nauvoo Legion does not retaliate on Carthage, which they could have. I think it’s Willard Richards who says, “Don’t. Don’t.” And I know Alex has told me in the past, “This is one of the greatest days in the church that the people of Nauvoo do not take revenge for the death of Joseph and Hiram.” They actually have a vote, I think, for peace.

John Bytheway: 42:11 That idea of yes-but-they, I just wrote in my margin, and I love this because in the book of Moroni, in Moroni chapter 9, it’s a letter from Mormon. He says in verse 6, “Now, behold, son, notwithstanding their hardness”, yea, but they, “let us labor diligently.” That’s the yes-but-I. It’s not reactive. It’s proactive. I don’t know what they’re doing, but let us labor diligently. And then at the end of this tender letter, he says, “Be faithful in Christ and may not the things which I have written grieve thee to weigh thee down unto death, but may Christ lift thee up. May his sufferings and death the showing of his body unto our fathers, his mercy, long-suffering and the hope of his glory and of eternal life, rest in your mind forever.”

  43:04 I love that idea of what we are allowing to rest in our minds. That’s what Mormon in the midst of this is telling Moroni, “Don’t do yes-but-they, yes-but-I,” and let Christ lift thee up, and his mission and his triumph over death rest in your mind forever.

Hank Smith: 43:26 Larry, as I’m looking at the life of Mormon, not only in the book of Mormon, this small book, but also throughout the way he wrote, I noticed something, and I would love to hear your comment on it. As we watch Mormon open up the book that he’s writing in Mosiah, he had written before this, and the pages were stolen. But as we open up, he has a lot of historian language. This is Mosiah 6:4.

  43:53 Mosiah began to reign in his father’s stead. He began to reign in the 13th year of his age making in whole about 466 years from the time Lehi left Jerusalem, and you get a lot of that explanation, timeline and things from Mormon. He seems to be pretty meticulous, especially early on about what year it is and what happened. And then by the end, he’s a different person. If you look at one of the last things he writes is something we looked at last week, Third Nephi, this is 30. This is the same guy in chapter 30, verse 2, “Turn all ye Gentiles from your wicked ways and repent of your evildoings, your lies, deceivings.”

  44:36 If I’m reading closely, I think I can follow him. From historian to prophet, he’s gone from I got to keep a meticulous record to I’m begging you to come to Christ. What have you seen with your expertise following Mormon from beginning to end? How would you describe what he’s gone through, the changes that you’ve seen?

Dr. Larry Nelson: 44:57 I see so much of an individual who had some really hard things happen in his life. Many things put upon him experiencing so much undoubtedly losses in there. I’m seeing the impact of the very words that he’s reading now shaping him. One example I saw in Mormon chapter 1, verse 15 where we see his incredible experience gaining his testimony.

  45:35 He says, “I being 15 years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind. Therefore, I was visited of the Lord and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus.” That word tasted was interesting to me because we see that a lot in the Book of Mormon. I did a quick search. Nowhere in the Old Testament is tasted use. In the New Testament, you can count on about one hand, and it’s all about tasting death or literally tastes like what the Savior tasted when on the cross being given that sponge filled with gall. Doctrine & Covenants, it’s used in relation to tasting death.

  46:16 Number one, if Joseph Smith was the writer of both the Doctrine & Covenants and the Book of Mormon, we would see similar use of tasting, but we do not. Tasting of the goodness of God, tasting the word of God, tasting the fruit is Book of Mormon language. Here, I see this is a concrete example of the very record that he’s reading is now influencing how he’s trying to make sense of his own life and his own development.

Hank Smith: 46:47 It’s become his vocabulary.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 46:49 But then if we go even deeper now, if it’s affected his vocabulary that much, look what it’s done to him as an individual trying to become like his Heavenly Father. We see the impact of the very words that he’s now sharing with us what they’ve had on him. And it’s another sign of the effect that it can have in our lives. If we will immerse ourselves to even a little bit of the extent that he must have done for decades in preparing what we now have, it’ll change us, right?

Hank Smith: 47:25 John, the parable of the marinade you gave a great talk years ago, probably back in the 1900s. What was that about?

John Bytheway: 47:33 Both of you probably know the name Dallyn Bayles. He’s played Hiram Smith and Joseph Smith. He’s played lots of different people in church movies and things. Well, he was on Broadway. He was the Phantom. I spoke at a huge conference in Rochester, New York. He got up, and he sang Bring Him Home, just brought the house down. I got on the plane home, and I sat next to Dallyn, and I said, “What are you doing now?” And he said, “I’m teaching seminary in Springville.” And I said, “Oh, I thought you were Broadway and Hollywood and all that.” And he said… reached for a pen. He said, “Well, my mentor told me, regardless of your original intention, you’ll eventually become what you surround yourself with.

  48:15 That was the impetus for that talk, Hank. Thanks for bringing it up, that you marinate something. It can’t fail to affect it, if that’s what you’re surrounded by. Now, amazingly, Mormon had a lifetime of war, but he clung to Jesus so beautifully. He’s a great example of growing up in this environment that we’ve talked about and not becoming part of it.

Hank Smith: 48:44 He marinated in the scriptures, it sounds like what Larry’s telling us.

John Bytheway: 48:47 And he tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus, never lost that. And that’s what got him through.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 48:54 There are things about our nature. There are things about our nurture that we can’t change. But when we choose to let God prevail and let the words of this book affect all that we do, we can act rather than be acted upon. We can be changed. We can rise above the challenging nature of our circumstance, become like our Heavenly Father.

Hank Smith: 49:18 Larry, I know that we could let you go right now, but we have an expert here. So I want to ask a couple of questions. One would be we see Mormon raising a righteous son in a terrible environment. What advice would you give to parents who are trying to do that same thing today? We can’t force them to be righteous, but we’re trying to give them an environment to which righteousness can grow in a pretty dark world. I’m sure you’ve had that question before. How do you usually address that?

Dr. Larry Nelson: 49:49 Let me give the parable of the sower and the seeds. If we go to the New Testament, that parable where seeds were distributed, and all the seeds were good. It wasn’t the seed that determined whether they took root. It was the ground. It was the ground, whether it was rocky, hard or the soil was good. Parenting is about preparing the hearts of our children to receive the word, to receive the seed, the things that we’re teaching them.

  50:24 You can’t force that. Parenting isn’t about what we do when our child won’t sleep through the night. Parenting isn’t about what we do when our child throws a tantrum at the checkout counter at the grocery store. Parenting isn’t what we do when they won’t do chores. Parenting isn’t what we do when they are late for curfew. Parenting is what we do to establish the atmosphere in our home where relationships can flourish.

  50:51 Building that relationship with our children so that they’ll want to receive the words that we’re teaching them, give place that they’ll choose to give place in their hearts. We can’t force a seed into them. We can’t make it take root, but we can sure try to prepare the ground through our love, our warm time that we spend with them, that climate that we build in our home. And then we look developmentally. In the early years of a child’s life, we teach them what is right and wrong.

  51:29 But as they get older, they want to know why. So next, we need to teach why something is right or wrong. But then, they’re going to hit a point to where now we have to let them choose between right and wrong. They have to start practicing. We can’t force that. We teach it. We teach why we believe what we do, what is right and what is wrong, and then we allow them to start practicing, choosing between right and wrong.

  52:02 And that whole process when done in an atmosphere or climate of love and warmth where relationships can flourish, increases the likelihood, nothing is guaranteed with agency, but increases the likelihood that they will give place in their hearts for the seed to begin to grow, and they’ll develop their own relationship with the Savior.

Hank Smith: 52:29 That’s beautiful. In my mind, I picture Mormon in his whatever his office looked like and his little son, Moroni comes in and, “Dad, what are you doing?” Well, have I ever told you the story of Alma and Amulek? Oh yeah, I love that one. Have I ever talked to you about Samuel, the Lamanite, and sharing these stories with him that he’s been studying and abridging for us? It’s a beautiful idea.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 52:54 There was probably at a time that he had with Moroni just like we have with our kids, in which Moroni was like, “Yeah, yeah. Okay, dad. You’ve told me that before. I want to go out and play catch whatever they wanted to do.” And my guess is Mormon knew the value as we’ve talked about probably of a father-son relationship said, you’re right. Let’s go play ball because it’s playing the ball with them, spending time with them, listening to what matters to them that will increase the likelihood that the next time we sit down hoping to share one of those stories, read the scriptures, have family home evening that they’ll want to engage with us then. Again, it’s that in which order do we have to do those things for it to be successful?

Hank Smith: 53:45 Frequent, personal loving interaction builds that relationship. I’m going to go text my children right now on the group chat, something really funny. So they’ll think, “Man, I-“

John Bytheway: 53:56 I love my dad.

Hank Smith: 53:57 Yeah, I love my dad. He sends me funny memes.

John Bytheway: 54:01 Hank, I’m reminded of something I’ve heard you say about if you’re wondering, gosh, life is hard, prophets have hard lives. Look at what Mormon went through here. Look at everybody in the Book of Mormon. That life was hard. Thankfully, he knew who to cling to.

  54:17 Larry, thank you so much for bringing up that wonderful introspective question. Are you willing to let God prevail? It is so good. This is not a happy book. This is the downfall. Right at the beginning, Nephi sees the destruction of his people, and he says, “I went back to the tent or whatever, and I considered my afflictions were above all because I just saw the downfall of my people.” Learn to be more wise than we have been.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 54:43 I’ve thought about that, felt some things to share, and I’ve enjoyed prepping this. I’m like, “Oh, this isn’t a fun book. This is the end of a civilization. How can I throw in some humor and keep it engaging?” There’s heaped up as dung on the earth. That’s what I’ve got to work with here.

John Bytheway: 55:03 It’s not a funny story.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 55:07 No. But the message so important for us today.

Hank Smith: 55:12 Larry. I don’t know Mormon personally, but I think if he was here, he’d say, “Thank you Dr. Nelson for taking this on.”

Dr. Larry Nelson: 55:19 I hope so. Thank you, Mormon.

Hank Smith: 55:22 Yeah.

Dr. Larry Nelson: 55:22 Thank you.

Hank Smith: 55:24 What a book. What a book. With that, we want to thank Dr. Larry Nelson for being with us today. We loved having him back. We also want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have a new voice, a new narrator, a new storyteller, the son of Mormon in Moroni, coming up on followHIM.

  55:53 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. on our website, you’ll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else.

  56:28 If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 56:48 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.