John Bytheway:               00:01                   Welcome back to part two with Dr. Susan Easton Black Doctrine & Covenants 111 to 114.

Hank Smith:                      00:09                   I noticed something both of you in section 112. The Lord mentions the heart six times in this section. I’ll read them to you and then I’d love to hear what you think. He says, there have been a few things in your heart with which I the Lord was not well pleased. Let thy heart be of good cheer. This is verse 11. I know thy heart and have heard thy prayers, and if you come over to 13, I the Lord will feel after them. And if they harden not their hearts, I will heal them. Then all the way to the end, 28, purify your hearts before me. Go into all the world and preach my gospel. And then verse 33, cleanse your hearts and your garments, lest the blood of generation be required at your hands. This happens in the book of Jacob as well. John you know that, Jacob is often talking about the state of your heart. It seems like Thomas B. Marsh and maybe some of these others, they let their heart get a little bit poisoned. Is that fair?

Dr. Susan Black:               01:17                   That’s fair.

Hank Smith:                      01:18                   How do you guard against that?

John Bytheway:               01:20                   Hank where’s the verse that says, there’s none else that knows the thoughts and the intents of thy heart.

Hank Smith:                      01:25                   In section, that’s for Oliver Cowdery, right? 6:16.

John Bytheway:               01:29                   I feel like having a pure heart is such a lofty goal. Don’t we sometimes have, did I always do my home teaching or my ministering for all of the perfectly right reasons? No. I think I’m supposed to. Maybe that’s what the Lord’s talking about. Your desires, your intentions, your affections, doing the best things, but doing it for the best reasons. That’s a lifetime pursuit. That’s why the Savior thankfully, can remake our hearts. I think if we wait to have perfect motives, we never do anything.

Hank Smith:                      02:04                   Yeah, and we can purify our hearts as we just move forward. I’ve noticed I come out of the temple feeling more purified than when I went in, so as we move forward in the work, our hearts can be purified. Susan, what do you think?

Dr. Susan Black:               02:18                   I think you’re absolutely right what you’re saying. I think hard heart to soft heart is a process. Soft heart to pure heart. The process continues depending on the day we’re somewhere in the middle, working to move forward to be better people.

Hank Smith:                      02:36                   Yeah. I brought this little thought from Elder Uchtdorf way back in 2010. He tells this story about President Faust. He says, when I was called as a general authority, I was blessed to be tutored by many of the senior brethren in the church. One day I had the opportunity to drive President James E. Faust to a stake conference. During the hours we spent in the car, President Faust took the time to teach me some important principles about my assignment. He explained also how gracious the members of the church are, especially to general authorities. He said, they will treat you very kindly. They will say nice things about you. He laughed a little and then said, Dieter, be thankful for this, but don’t you ever inhale it. Don’t let it in. This whole talk is on pride in the priesthood. In fact, at one point he talks about sports.

                                           03:28                   He says, I confess, there are times when the lack of civility in sports is embarrassing. How is it that normally kind and compassionate human beings can become so intolerant and filled with hatred? Pride is the great sin of self elevation. When you think of a hardened heart, it is for so many a personal Rameumptom, a holy stand that justifies envy, greed, and vanity. In a sense, pride is the original sin for before the foundations of the earth pride felled Lucifer, a son of the mourning who was in authority in the presence of God. And then this statement, if pride can corrupt, one as capable and promising as this, that’s why I thought of Thomas B. Marsh, here he is the President of the Twelve. He was capable and promising. If pride can corrupt one as capable and promising as this, should we not examine our own souls as well? And maybe from this we might say hearts, examine your heart. One thing is envy, greed, vanity, justification. All of these things can be, man, am I headed in that direction? Thomas B. Marsh, he’s been in this, what did you say, Susan? 1830?

Dr. Susan Black:               04:44                   Right. He’s coming in early.

Hank Smith:                      04:45                   Yeah. This is seven years. He’s not brand new like some of these others we see who come in and flame out. Tell us about Thomas. Why does he leave? He’s a good guy, right? He is a good guy.

Dr. Susan Black:               04:57                   Right. He is a really good guy. Maybe pride. He knew better than others about who he thought was at fault as it relates to the strippings and the cream. He lived long enough to be able to see his follies and to realize he’d made a mistake. He’s lost his wife, he lost any wealth. He lost family and he lost his health. At this point, he comes back and it’s interesting that the man that baptized him was actually paid to take Thomas in his wagon to get him to Utah because it wasn’t like he was healthy enough to be able to get his own wagon and an oxen and get along the way. Thomas went through a lot of problems, and at one point he said he knew that the Lord loved him else why would he have so much shaking when he fell away? Why? It was just so obvious the problems were insurmountable.

Hank Smith:                      06:01                   Exalt not yourself. Rebel not against my servant Joseph. The Lord sees it coming early on. He says, don’t do this. Don’t head this direction.

Dr. Susan Black:               06:11                   Don’t do this because look what’s gonna happen as a parent. Can’t we all see that? We’d say, don’t do this. Remember who you are, which means remember who I am, right? Don’t do this. It’s not gonna result in happiness at the end. Yeah. Thomas is prideful enough to do it anyway.

Hank Smith:                      06:31                   I say it to my students sometimes. I’ve seen this movie. I know how this ends. Yeah, you’re not the first student to do this sort of thing and to head this direction. That’s so hard. It’s heartbreaking. Talking about hearts.

John Bytheway:               06:45                   This letter that I read, I was in the fourth or fifth paragraph, an earlier paragraph says, I know I have sinned against heaven and in thy sight, I mean that’s right out of Luke 15. That’s the prodigal son, and I deserve no place among you, even as the lowest member. You know, I’m no more worthy to be called thy son. But like you said, Susan, that Lord was after him. He said that He’s followed me. He has visited me with scourging, ouch, with visions and dreams. Lord never gave up on him it sounds like. I’m just glad that it says when he went to, let’s see, on September 6th, two days after his arrival in the valley, a large congregation had assembled for Sabbath worship, voted unanimously to receive Brother Marsh in full fellowship. And as you said, a stroke had paralyzed part of his body it says, but I’m glad they all said, yes, brother. Come back.

Dr. Susan Black:               07:38                   Don’t you think that’s great? Because you’re looking at people that actually went through the extermination order and could look to Thomas as part of the cause of that and imagine their feelings about the man. Yet on the moment they were like, sure, we welcome you back in. I mean, it says something about Thomas wanting to come back, but it says something about the saints that endured it, crossed the plains, went through all the problems, and yet they also were willing to forgive him.

John Bytheway:               08:12                   What did Elder Uchtdorf say? Forgive me for, what was it? I sin differently than you do? What was it? So, and that keeps us humble. Because all of us know both of those sons had issues. One of them was pride, resentment, envy maybe, and one was more visible sins, but we all need the repentance. I like the ending to that story. It makes me feel a little better that he came back and the whole congregation said, yes, we want you back. I like that.

Hank Smith:                      08:41                   There was this moment, Susan, I remember this story just because both you and I knew Robert Matthews. Here’s the man who wrote quite a bit, right? Basically wrote the Bible Dictionary that we use. He’s speaking in Cedar City and he was teaching us. I was a young seminary teacher, and I remember distinctly, he said, now I don’t want you to think that I know more than you. I don’t. I just thought, yes you do. Like, yes, yes you do, you do. But he emanated this, look, I’m not special. I’m doing the work just like you. I think that’s what he meant. We’re on the same team here.

Dr. Susan Black:               09:19                   We’re on the same team. Different talents, appreciating each other’s talents as opposed to competing.

Hank Smith:                      09:26                   Yeah, this is a heartbreaking one. I love that he comes back. My heart hurts for what he missed out on. Maybe we would’ve had Thomas B. Marsh University, right? That’s right.

Dr. Susan Black:               09:37                   We sure could have.

John Bytheway:               09:38                   That’s what Casey Griffith said. It could have been TMU instead of BYU.

Hank Smith:                      09:44                   And we’re gonna talk about David Patten later, who also was ahead of Brigham Young in the 12.

Dr. Susan Black:               09:50                   Right. Actually, if David had known when his birthday was, he would’ve been President of the Twelve.

John Bytheway:               09:58                   Really?

Dr. Susan Black:               09:59                   Instead of Thomas B. Marsh.

John Bytheway:               10:01                   He just didn’t know when it was.

Dr. Susan Black:               10:03                   Yeah. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      10:05                   Susan, when we started, you said that Joseph has financial concerns. Thomas B. Marsh has concerns. That’s 111 and 112, and then you said 113 and you named a bunch of people who have concerns, but I don’t see them listed here.

Dr. Susan Black:               10:20                   The only one that we could really name is Elias Higbee. All we know is he’s with other brethren, but their concerns are about doctrine. I think that that is so interesting because we move from, we’re concerned about money, we’re concerned about those not keeping the commandments, but actually we’re concerned about doctrine. This one little history on it, Joseph Smith has just arrived in Missouri. He’s now in the Farr West area, walking through the town. He’s with his brother Samuel Smith. Remember our first missionary as they’re walking along, it’s now in March of 1838, they run into Elias Higbee and other brethren are approaching them, and these brethren claimed that they had questions about interpretation of verses. We’re gonna find, it’s in chapter 11 and chapter 52 of the book of Isaiah, and you think, isn’t that interesting? You know, they’ve got a fledgling community starting. They’re gonna have a couple of hotels. They’ve got some general stores. They’ve figured out where the temple site’s gonna be. They’re basically all farmers by trade and then something else. But here I’m in actually discussing then the book of Isaiah and you think, well, that’s so interesting.

Hank Smith:                      11:43                   I got a lot going on.

Dr. Susan Black:               11:44                   When you’ve got a town to be built, right. They’ve got persecution, people falling apart, quoting Bruce R. McConkie. I think it’s pretty interesting. He was asked, why did these brethren have questions about the writings of Isaiah? And he said, the answer is simple. He said, most of us find the writings of Isaiah hard to understand. So it’s not these men back in the 1830s, but even today. Yet, Bruce R. McConkie said, it just may be that my salvation and yours also does in fact depend upon our ability to understand the writings of Isaiah as fully and truly as Nephi understood them. Isaiah itself, as we begin to look, he’s always pointing his readers to Jesus Christ, to covenants and to the temple. You get restoration of lost truths, promised land, who’s the rightful king. But if you look to ingest the Doctrine and Covenants, we have over 70 quotations that are either quoted or paraphrased of Isaiah. So Isaiah seems to be the link. I’ve always wondered when we get all the scriptures together and here come the lost tribes with their scriptures. It’ll be like a pencil that we cut in three pieces. Here’s the Book of Mormon people and here’s the Jerusalem people. Here they come. How will we recognize each other? We’ll all be talking Isaiah.

Hank Smith:                      13:10                   Everyone will have Isaiah in their scripture.

Dr. Susan Black:               13:12                   Yeah, everybody will have Isaiah. It’s our link. The problem is it’s our link, but yet remains so hard to understand. At this point Joseph Smith then receives a revelation for the brethren and answers the five questions that are contained in Doctrine & Covenants Section 113. You can see the five as we go through. We actually don’t know who asked the first three, but we know you get Elias Higbee coming through on the last two. I thought might wanna learn something first about Elias Higbee.

Hank Smith:                      13:49                   Okay. Let’s do it.

Dr. Susan Black:               13:51                   Elias Higbee joins the church in Cincinnati, Ohio. He’s one of the first then called to take his family to Jackson County, Missouri, and he’s among those in 1833 that’s forced out of Jackson and ends up in Clay County. By the time we’re picking up here, obviously he’s moved up to Farr West, you’d say, as far as positions in the church, it appears to me somebody that doesn’t say no. He doesn’t seem to have an excuse by the time we pick him up. He’s been a high counselor, a clerk, a historian, and a recorder. He might’ve been a writer in our time. He could have been somebody that taught religion. Seems like he’s into it. He’s the clerk historian. After this experience, what puts him on the map that people remember him most? He is in 1839, he was asked to accompany Joseph Smith to Washington DC to put before the President of the United States, Missouri redress petitions.

                                           14:50                   For him he stays in the capital after Joseph has departed and finally says, by 1840, I feel now that we have made our last appeal to all earthly tribunals for the wrongs we suffer down in the state of Missouri, that we should now put our whole trust in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We have a right now, which we could not here to for so fully claim that is basking God for redress and redemption as they have been refused to us by man. In other words, he is not successful. He returns back to where the saints had then been to Illinois. His next assignment, he’s appointed to be on the Nauvoo Temple Committee to help select the site and direct in the workers of the temple. He dies of cholera in June of 1843. At the age of 47. Joseph Smith said of this man, his loss will be universally lamented.

                                           15:50                   How’d you like that? Not only by his family, but by a large circle of brethren who have long witnessed his integrity and uprightness as well as a life of devotedness to the cause of truth. You look at him, he’s young too. That by this point it would make him in his early forties as he is in Farr West, and he’s with friends and they’re discussing two chapters in Isaiah as they’re walking along the streets where you’d say, other men are putting in fences, they’re plowing the land. Here’s these guys talking about something that you’d say, wait a minute, what could you say you’ve done with your day. Now, maybe we could look at the questions.

Hank Smith:                      16:38                   He does sound like he’d be a religion teacher, right?

Dr. Susan Black:               16:42                   Don’t you think?

Hank Smith:                      16:42                   We’re weird. I’ve had conversations where I’m walking with a friend to lunch and I say, Hey, I was teaching this today. What do you think that verse means? It’s an odd group.

Dr. Susan Black:               16:54                   They’re just walking down the street. Other peoples are working in their gardens or slaughtering chickens for the dinner. They’re doing things. They’re just talking about Isaiah, which gives you a clue that readers in the church, they were illiterate, they were familiar with their Bibles.

Hank Smith:                      17:15                   Hmm. And he’s asking about here Isaiah 11, which is also one of those in the Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 21.

Dr. Susan Black:               17:24                   Maybe going through, what are the questions? First question, who is the stem of Jesse spoken of? Then in the first five verses of chapter 11 of Isaiah. Joseph Smith then hearing from the Lord verily, thus saith the Lord. Here’s your answer, the stem of Jesse. Well, it is none other than Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith:                      17:49                   And Jesse is David’s father.

Dr. Susan Black:               17:51                   Right.

Hank Smith:                      17:51                   You’ll know a little of your Old Testament.

Dr. Susan Black:               17:53                   And then you get the second question, what is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah that should come of the stem of Jesse? In other words, Jesse’s given you it’s Christ, right? Who’s the stem. Well, who’s the rod then? And the answer you get, the answer isn’t coming, behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a servant in the hands of Christ who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim or of the house of Joseph on whom there’s laid much power. Can you name him?

Hank Smith:                      18:36                   He doesn’t name him here, but I would guess either that’s Joseph Smith or John Bytheway.

John Bytheway:               18:43                    I’m pretty sure it’s Joseph. Okay, one of those answers, right.

Hank Smith:                      18:45                   Well, I was leaning one way. I just didn’t want you to know.

John Bytheway:               18:50                   Thanks for the shout out.

Hank Smith:                      18:51                   Yeah.

Dr. Susan Black:               18:53                   We’ve now learned the stem of Jesse is Christ, the rod spoken about, and you start looking genealogy which gives you an Ephraim house of Joseph as well as Joseph Smith. Then you get, here’s your next question. What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter? You ready for the answer?

John Bytheway:               19:17                   I’ll read it. This is verse six. Behold, thus saith the Lord. It is a descendant of Jesse as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs to the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom for an Ensign and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Hank Smith:                      19:33                   So he’s identified three different symbols in Isaiah 11, he’s identified the stem of Jesse, the rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a rod is like a shoot, a little branch coming out. Then he’s identified this third, which is in that day there shall be a root of Jesse and he’s asking about all three. Did I get that right?

Dr. Susan Black:               19:57                   Yep. But how do we interpret then the answer in verse six, one and two have been people, one’s Christ, one’s Joseph. But then you come to verse six.

Hank Smith:                      20:12                   Behold, thus saith the Lord. It is a descendant of Jesse as well of Joseph, the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom. I’m gonna guess here, Susan, that this is the church.

Dr. Susan Black:               20:25                   Yep.

Hank Smith:                      20:26                   Did I get right?

Dr. Susan Black:               20:27                   Yes. Boy. Talk about an A student.

Hank Smith:                      20:31                   Can you go back and change my grade? Yeah.

Dr. Susan Black:               20:35                   That’s an A because look at what you get in the church. You get the priesthood, you get the keys of the kingdom of God. It’s an Ensign where it’s we’re gathering the people here in the last days. His questions are not casual questions. Like I had one student complain when I asked how many pieces of bone came out of Joseph’s original incision when his leg was cut. He goes, I don’t think that’s important. I’m like, but I do.

Hank Smith:                      21:06                   Yeah, and I’m the teacher.

Dr. Susan Black:               21:11                   But you’d say it’s not a question off like that. These are the basics. Christ, Joseph Smith, the church, right? Do we actually know who asked those first three questions? And the answer is no. But then we come to verse seven. These are now questions that are asked by Elias Higbee, someone who goes on to be on the Nauvoo Temple committee, who goes with Joseph Smith to Washington DC and is left there to handle church affairs. So someone that Joseph has great trust in this time. In verse seven he says, well, okay, I’m not interested right now in chapter 11 of Isaiah. I’ve had it with that. You guys have talked enough about that. So what I’d really like to know is what about the 52nd chapter, first verse, here’s the question. Do you think Joseph Smith, when he received the revelation is walking along with the Bible in his hand when he’s with his brother Samuel and they kind of arrived in town?

Hank Smith:                      22:17                   That was my thought. Is the Lord up in, he’s like, well, let me look that up. Hang on. Let me turn over to Isaiah 52.

Dr. Susan Black:               22:25                   Or do those other men, do they actually have a Bible as they’re walking along? And Joseph says, wait a minute, turn to that.

Hank Smith:                      22:31                   Yeah.

Dr. Susan Black:               22:33                   Questions we probably don’t know the answer. Elias Higbee now has two questions of his own. Verse seven, what is meant by the command in Isaiah chapter 52 first verse, which saith put on thy strength oh Zion and what people had Isaiah referenced to? In other words, who’s Isaiah talking about when he says put on thy strength and what is our strength? I’m looking for my A student. Come on John. You can join the group here.

Hank Smith:                      23:06                   Yeah, come on. John.

John Bytheway:               23:09                   To put on thy strength is he describes it as robes. And often we think of clothes as you crown a king, you put a robe on him. It’s power. I love the answer here. To put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she has right to. Is that the question, did I answer the right question?

Dr. Susan Black:               23:28                   Yes, you did. Good.

John Bytheway:               23:30                   Yeah. Thanks.

Dr. Susan Black:               23:32                   Student makes good. So you look and you’d say, what are we learning in these verses? We’re learning stem is Christ. We’re learning about the rod Joseph Smith. We’re learning about the root, the church. Now we’re learning about what you need to have the strength to be able to survive in the society in which we live. You need strength, which you’re now saying is priesthood.

John Bytheway:               24:01                   We, all of us. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      24:04                   It says Susan at the end of verse eight, return to that power which she had lost. I read ahead a little bit. We’re gonna talk about scattered Israel here. This isn’t just a set of random questions. This is Christ, Joseph Smith, the church is going to gather scattered Israel. And I’m guessing the next question is, what’s that gonna look like? What is gonna happen to scattered Israel? What is do we understand by Zion loosing herself from the bands of her neck? I can read verse 10. We are to understand that the scattered remnants are exhorted to return to the Lord from whence they have fallen, which if they do, the promise of the Lord is that he will speak to them or give them revelation. And then the Lord gives some homework. I want you to go read the sixth, seventh, and eighth verses talking about the bands of the neck are the curses of God upon her, the remnants of Israel in their scattered condition among the Gentiles. That’s a great lesson on the Lord, Joseph Smith, the church and the purpose of the church here is not just to restore a New Testament church, but to go find scattered Israel. That’s awesome.

Dr. Susan Black:               25:18                   I imagine our listeners have accepted mission calls. We should probably all sing Called to Serve. Our job is get out there and find them. I think we could say to each other, where have we gone to try and find scattered Israel? At least the three of us can say, we’ve gone a lot of places.

Hank Smith:                      25:41                   Absolutely. And we’ve got kids in a lot of places.

Dr. Susan Black:               25:44                   We do.

Hank Smith:                      25:46                   Sometimes I’ll do that in class. Where did you go? The Lord says, go ye to all the Earth and they’ll yell out Las Vegas, Norway, Ghana. It’s a fun little activity.

Dr. Susan Black:               25:59                   It is. And you always feel the Spirit. You’re like, who are these great people that we get to teach that have done so much for the Lord? The sacrifice and their willingness and then the joy they’ve experienced.

Hank Smith:                      26:12                   There is a quote from 2005, so 20 years ago that I use when I teach the gathering of Israel in my classes, I usually started off like this. This is Elder Bednar. The talk is called Becoming a Missionary. So I’ll usually give the first half of the quote and ask them to fill in the second half. The first half says this, we were foreordained in the Premortal existence and born into mortality. Two, I’ll put dot, dot, dot. I’ll say, how would you finish? Why did we come to Earth? Most often it’s to get a body to be tested, to become like God. And I’ll say, those are all right. But that’s not what Elder Bednar said. And I’ll fill it in. Here’s the whole quote. We were foreordained in the Premortal existence and born into mortality to fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is who we are. That is why we are here. I taught my twin boys when they were young to say that to their primary teachers when they said, why did we come to Earth? To fulfill the covenant and promise God made to Abraham. That is why we are here. But it really is. President Nelson has been talking about this since long before he was President of the Church.

John Bytheway:               27:33                   It’s true. I love that this was on their minds and the answers when I saw this question, I thought, maybe they’ve read their Book of Mormon too, because it’s repeated twice in the Book of Mormon. In second Nephi eight, also in third Nephi 20, the same Isaiah passages out of chapter 52 are repeated like in 2 Nephi eight, which is compare Isaiah 51 and 52, awake, awake, standup O Jerusalem, which has drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury. Thou hast drunken the dregs out of the cup of trembling wrung out. So it talks about what they’ve been through. But then we skip to verse 23 of 2 Nephi 8. I will put it into the hand of them that afflicted thee who have said to thy soul bow down that we may go over. I mean they’ve literally been walked all over and thou hast laid thy body as the ground and as the street to them that went over.

                                           28:34                   Now here’s the Elias Higbee question. Awake, awake, put on thy strength oh Zion. Put on thy beautiful garments of Jerusalem, the holy city for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. Shake thyself from the dust. Arise. Sit down O Jerusalem, loose thyself from the bands of thy neck. Oh, captive daughter of Zion, which was another question. And then we see the same thing. Third Nephi chapter 20 where Jesus quotes it again. Third Nephi 20 verse 36, awake, put on thy strength oh Zion put on thy beautiful garments. It has a wonderful latter-day flavor to it. Hank, isn’t Paul Hoskisson a relative of yours?

Hank Smith:                      29:20                   He is. He’s a cousin. Although I don’t think he’d claim me.

John Bytheway:               29:24                   Oh, okay. I was watching one of the round table discussions years ago. I’m reading Arise, sit down. And that sounds like well make up your mind, right? Yeah. Arise. Sit down. Loose thyself from the bands of thy neck. Invaders often took conquered inhabitants of the land of slaves sometimes by putting bands around their necks. Symbolically, sin is like a band around our necks as Satan leads us where he wants us to go. The prophet Joseph Smith wrote, the bands of her neck are curses of God upon her. That’s verse 10. Verses 24 and 25 of two Nephi eight are repeated in Third Nephi 20 and some of the last words in the Book of Mormon in Moroni 10:31. If you’re curious about what does this all mean, this is what Dr. Hoskisson said. He was an Old Testament professor that I had at BYU. He said that people of Israel should stand up out of the dust where they’ve been.

                                           30:20                   Dust is a sign of mourning. It’s a sign of degradation. They ought to get up out of the dust, out of their reason for mourning. They ought to rise. They ought to come in the house again because the Lord’s going to accept them. They ought to take a bath and put on some new clothes and sit down with the Lord and share a meal with him once more as he did previously before they deserted him. I love the idea when I saw arise, sit down, that that’s a contradiction, but it’s get out of the dust and sit down in dignity with the Lord like on the throne and put on the power of the priesthood, which is the robes. And Hoyt Brewster said it could also be speaking of holy things in holy places to put on robes, which I thought was cool.

Hank Smith:                      31:06                   Shout out to cousin Paul. I wish I would’ve gotten a little of that Old Testament expertise.

Dr. Susan Black:               31:14                   We’ve come off section 109 and 110 where it was all temple. Then we saw concerns. We went through Joseph’s concern for money. And Thomas’s concern were people in his quorum not keeping the commandments. And it’s almost as if Elias Higbee was a vehicle for Joseph Smith to remind him of the temple. You’ve had pretty heavy things being pounded at you. Let’s remember the big picture, what we’re all about.

Hank Smith:                      31:46                   Yeah. Mm-hmm. And Susan, this is happening in the middle of some pretty intense times.

Dr. Susan Black:               31:53                   Oh, very intense.

Hank Smith:                      31:54                   For Joseph Smith. In fact, I see that Section 114 is April of 1838. Section 111 where we started was August of 36. Two years, almost two years has gone by. We went from the dedication of the Kirtland Temple to Joseph Smith is in Missouri. What’s happened?

Dr. Susan Black:               32:18                   Well, a very difficult time for him, Kirtland Safety Society. He and Sidney Rigdon, he will actually escape and work his way towards Missouri by the time he’s in Missouri false brethren have made it there too. But once he gets in Missouri, he is holding with the High Council on some of the men. Anyways, it’s just such a difficult time. I don’t know where the recipients of that difficult time, because you look at Kirtland like 1831. It’s just revelation after revelation. And then you find all these revelations and Kirtland and then all these revelations in Hiram, Ohio and different places. And suddenly you come to this period and you go, where are the revelations at this point in Missouri, Joseph? Because he’s taking so much time in court and trying to get the church altogether, he actually asks the Missouri Farr West High Council, if they could support his family for a year.

                                           33:22                   Because he is without means, and you have to wait for your crops to grow for the ever discredit of the High Council. They voted no at this time period. You get Joseph Smith, Emma living in a home, and you get, it’s like they do two blessings on the food. One is a blessing on food that isn’t there. So they pray that somebody will be inspired in that town of Farr West to bring the food. And then you get the awkwardness of someone coming to the door. I don’t know why we kill so many chickens and you know, my wife was this, here you go. And then Joseph blessing the food and then blessing the family that they will never want for a loaf of bread. John Tanner’s obviously the best example of this, but I had an occasion in my happy world of research, who else has wanted to go into these libraries where you need tetanus shots to walk in.

                                           34:15                   You know, they’re just out in the nowhere place at this point. You don’t see them on Google. So I decided I would follow through the lives of those on the High Council that were serving at that time, that voted to not help support Joseph and his family for that year. See what happened to them. And the interesting thing I found is that each one of those men at one point in their lives went through a difficult time financially. And there was a time in each one of their lives where they lacked the means for a loaf of bread. It’s your ultimate example during this time period of as you judge, you will be judged. At one point I was asked in my stake to speak to the High Council, and I go, I’m gonna tell them all about this High Council. What’s the impact of it? Well, where are those revelations that we could have been blessed with? And I’d say Joseph’s out being a farmer trying to figure out how to support his family. Oh, well, the church is struggling.

Hank Smith:                      35:17                   Hmm. Wow. These are hard dark years.

Dr. Susan Black:               35:23                   I know. Why did you guys ask me to come during this? I’m really a cheerful person.

Hank Smith:                      35:29                   And hey, don’t worry. We have your colleague Alex Baugh, Dr. Baugh, coming next week to talk about the lead up to Liberty. Joseph is coming off some of the best years of his life to maybe the darkest few years of his life. I mean, he’s walking into a storm in Missouri that is gonna turn into almost an all out war. So tell us about David Patten. Didn’t he have a nickname John?

John Bytheway:               35:59                   Captain Fear Not. It’s a great nickname.

Dr. Susan Black:               36:03                   That’s the one you could use at one of those youth conferences. Captain Fear Not.

Hank Smith:                      36:06                   Captain Fear Not.

Dr. Susan Black:               36:09                   David W. Patten. When he is younger, he’s one of those searcher peoples that’s looking for a church that can be in its purity. Something that reminds him about the New Testament Church of Christ. He had a brother that wrote him a letter, indicated that he had just learned about the restoration and about a new church. David was so interested that he has reported to have gone 300 miles to Indiana to meet with his brother. He’s convinced at that point about the Book of Mormon, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith and is baptized. He’s ordained an elder as early as June of 1832 and returned to his home, which at that time was in Michigan. At this point, he becomes one of those, what you call a member missionary. He’s going around, he’s preaching the gospel everywhere.

                                           37:02                   He says he saw, while on this type of mission, he saw that the deaf were made to hear the blind could see the lame were made whole, fevers, palsies, crooked, and withered limbs, in fact, all manner of diseases common to the country were healed, what he called by his use of the power of God. He’d say, John, you are some missionary. Wouldn’t you have liked to have him as a companion? He’d say, yeah, you’re up. I see somebody sick. Anyway, he moves from Michigan to Kirtland. Joseph asked him to go on to Clay County. He said, I received a blessing from Joseph before he moved on to Clay County. And in the blessing he said, the reason he was asked to go to Missouri at that time, he said, oh, may God grant it a blessing for Zion as a kind angel from heaven, how’d you like that said about you? David’s called to be an apostle like all the others. In February notice, it’s February 14th. I always think it’s Valentine’s Day, whether my husband remembers flowers, candies, all the above.

                                           38:05                   I always say it’s a good day. We got the Quorum of the Twelve. But all right, David comes in, he’s an apostle. He receives a blessing that he is to be like one of old who bore testimony of Jesus. Well, he serves a mission to the Eastern states. He then serves a mission in the southern states. He’s actually arrested well on a mission in the southern states in Tennessee because his companion promised that anybody that accepted baptism would receive the Holy Ghost, and they were held under a $2,000 bond for saying such a thing. Wow. At the trial that is held for this missionary, this great missionary David Patten, he delivers a speech about 20 minutes, which is said he held them spellbound. He told them of their wickedness and abominations that they were guilty of, and if they did not repent, they’d be in big trouble.

                                           39:01                   He said that the judge was worried that maybe he had a weapon on him, and he says, my only weapon has given me the truth of God. But following the trial, he returns from the mission to Tennessee to Kirtland. He tells the prophet Joseph that he wishes he could die a martyr’s death. Joseph replied, he said, when a man of your faith asks the Lord for anything, he generally grants it. So we need to all be careful if we get better and better, but we’re probably safe. But then it says on October 24th, when news reached David that a mob had taken Latter-day Saint prisoners. They’d taken three men there in Missouri. He said he’d determined he would rescue them with about 75 men. He volunteered to join him in an attempt to rescue them.

                                           39:54                   That day, a biographer writes with the watchword, God and liberty on his lips, David ordering a charge ran forward, the mob fled in confusion before the rush that followed. But as David led the pursuit down the riverbank, which was the crooked river, a mobber who had taken refuge behind a tree turned and shot him in the abdomen. David was carried from the battle site to a home of Steven Winchester. In that home, he said, I have finished my course, hencefore there is laid up for me a crown, which the Lord, the righteous judge will give me. He also said, brethren, you’ve held me by your faith, but do give me up. Stop having so much faith that I can live. He goes, give me up. Let me go. I beseech you. And then David died in the evening of October 25th, 1838 at age 38. I like what Joseph Smith wrote of this great man. He said, brother David W. Patten was a very worthy man, beloved of all good men who knew him. He was one of the Twelve apostles and died as he lived a man of God and strong in the faith of a glorious resurrection in a world where mobs will have no power or place. At his funeral, the prophet Joseph pointed to his lifeless body and said, there lies a man that has done just as he said he would. He has laid down his life for his friends. Well, that’s David W. Patten, you impressed? Yeah, I am.

John Bytheway:               41:32                   Oh, captain, my captain, fear not.

Hank Smith:                      41:36                   The first martyr that I can think of.

Dr. Susan Black:               41:41                   Joseph’s son, Joseph Smith Murdock Smith, back in the tar and feathering. But if you were to say first apostle, first Latter-day Saint, but the fact he had said to Joseph he wanted to die a martyr.

John Bytheway:               41:54                   Right?

Dr. Susan Black:               41:55                   And then he got his wish. He was such a good man. The Lord took him up on it. Yeah. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               42:01                   If you’ve got a nickname, Captain Fear Not. That’s pretty cool too. That’s, yeah,

Dr. Susan Black:               42:06                   Yeah. If we were to look at section 14, it only has two verses, and if you’re having students memorize a section, they might choose this one. Right?

Hank Smith:                      42:16                   Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Susan Black:               42:18                   Verily, thus saith the Lord, it is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can and make a disposition of his merchandise that he may perform a mission unto me next spring. That mission they’re talking about, it’s the mission of the Quorum of the Twelve to England, when they’re gonna leave April 26th, 1839, from that Farr West Temple site, the Lord is saying, Hey, get your house in order, you know, I’m gonna be calling you, but I’m gonna give you time to get things ready. So you’ve got about a year to pull it together. And then he says, notice you’re gonna perform a mission unto me next spring in company with others, even 12, including himself to testify of my name and bear glad tidings into all the world. In other words, this is the 12 gonna leave from that Farr West Temple site.

                                           43:15                   David, I’m giving you a year to get ready to go. You realize a lot of these men, when they were called on missions, it’s like you’re called and the next day you’re on the trail and you’re going, David’s getting time. And then notice what it says in the end. For verily thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric. Amen. What the Lord is saying, notice he said the Twelve, and then there’s like a pause and you’d say, the Lord knows that others are gonna fall, like Thomas B. Marsh is gonna fall. Others are gonna be called in to take their stead. Who’s called in on that mission that David doesn’t live to fulfill? Called in will be George A. Smith. Remember the first presidency, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards. You seeing what I’m saying? Those that we know and love, and you’d say, what can we say about them? They were called to take their place or called in their stead, and what do they all of them have in common? They’re always faithful.

John Bytheway:               44:25                   I love that you pointed that out. It’s almost like in verse two. David, if you don’t last, I’ll send someone else.

Dr. Susan Black:               44:37                   It’s interesting. By 1840, David’s been gone for a while, right? There’s a man named Seymour Brunson that dies in Joseph Smith’s home, Heber C. Kimball says, I saw that David W. Patten, you know, has come to take him home. People didn’t forget David, you know, in other words, some people die and you go, well pass the butter right? Sorry to hear the news. You know, life is moving along. But in the case of David, he was remembered. So many people named their children after him, after he’d gone. I mean, he was just a standout. So as we all talk about Captain Moroni, I’d have to put him in the same category.

Hank Smith:                      45:21                   Wow, wonderful. Maybe a President of the Church, had he not died. Correct me if I’m wrong, Susan, lead us a little bit further. After the death of David Patten. Things are gonna continue to spiral, lead us into next week.

Dr. Susan Black:               45:37                   When you look at the dates of how things spiral, it’s kind of like within one week you get the battle of Crooked River. Then after the battle of Crooked River, within that same week, you’ve got the massacre at Hauns Mill, you’ve got the betrayal of Joseph Smith by George Hinkle. Then you get Joseph and the Brethren. There’s a militia military court. They’re condemned to be shot there at the Farr West Center, which would make it the Temple Square. So it’s like Battle of Crooked River kicks everything off, but it goes very, very fast. And then Joseph’s move from there to Independence, to Richmond jail, to Liberty Jail. It’s pretty tough time for the prophet.

Hank Smith:                      46:31                   And he doesn’t want more. He is not a violent person. If it were me, I might be, let’s go. But from what I’ve read, Susan, you know more than me, he is not prone to violence.

Dr. Susan Black:               46:45                   If he had decided violence, there’s about 5,000 people in Farr West, and then they’re in Dewitt. They’re in all kinds of communities. Gallatin, there’s a lot of communities around there. You know, he could have, Adam-ondi-Ahman really pulled them together.

Hank Smith:                      46:59                   He had numbers.

Dr. Susan Black:               47:00                   Yeah, he had the numbers, and the ones that were faithful would fall.

Hank Smith:                      47:04                   Would go, wow, Susan, this has been wonderful. I did not know a lot of this, especially this stuff on Isaiah. I think I had just kind of said, oh yeah, I’m glad I was talking about Isaiah. I love Isaiah, but you’ve got a nice mission statement there of the Lord, Joseph Smith, the church and the gathering. This is what’s going on. We’ve been inspired by David Patten and John, we’ve learned a lesson in the scriptures. There are, what did you tell me?

John Bytheway:               47:34                   When you find a name, it’s either a example or a warning. A do what this person did or don’t do what this person did.

Hank Smith:                      47:43                   Yeah, we’ve had plenty of those. Plenty of those today. Susan, I would love for you to just rant and vent Joseph Smith today in 2025, there is more evil spoken of Joseph Smith on a daily basis than ever before. With the rise of social media. Everyone has a megaphone, and I’m sure when Moroni said, your name will be known for good and evil. He had to think across the world, and there’s no way people on the other side of the world are really gonna care about me. And yet, here we are, Susan. Very few people know and have studied Joseph Smith’s life like you have. It’s been an incredible career. It’s still going.

Dr. Susan Black:               48:27                   Huge privilege.

Hank Smith:                      48:29                   So I think our listeners would be interested. Here’s someone who knows him, who’s read what he’s written, who knows where he was on any given day. Joseph will probably ask you one day, Susan, where was I then?

Dr. Susan Black:               48:43                   On this date, right?

Hank Smith:                      48:46                   Yeah. I would love to you to speak to our listeners, those who maybe even, maybe doubt him. Or struggle, oh, is Joseph really a prophet? What would you say?

Dr. Susan Black:               48:57                   I have had an opportunity to teach and study his life for decades. If you were to say, have I ever found any reason to pause and say, oh, wow, I don’t think he’s a prophet. I’ve never found that. I’ve thought when people have questioned it, his prophetic calling, it’s because they don’t know enough. They haven’t exercised their faith, they haven’t prayed. I’ve had people come up and ask horrible questions and I go, you know, you knew the answer but so many people don’t want to hear the answer. I don’t know how to say it better. They want to believe what they believe ’cause it gives them excuse not to believe that he was a prophet. But I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and I wish I could say all my actions mirrored that knowledge. That’s always a struggle. I know Joseph was a prophet.

                                           49:52                   I’ve had thousands of students. I taught in an era where people had little tape recorders and they’d all rush up to my desk. My classes were 200-300 students at a time. They would then tape and then share their tapes with people like family members. But I had one student named Clayton Pixton, who eventually settled out there in the Independence area in Kansas City, Missouri, faithful member of the church. He contacted me and said, I’ve listened to those old tapes again and again, and they’re all wearing out, and I can hear students slamming their desks, their books on the floor, you know, whatever it is. They’re laughing and I couldn’t hear all the words. What I’d really like to do is to do a free podcast for everybody. You just talk. And Clayton had the talent and has the talent to be able to sing, play the piano and the guitar, and I go, wait a minute, you’re gonna rock out a little bit while I do the first vision.

                                           50:49                   He goes, yeah, I can do that. And make it so it’s tolerable for people to listen to. We have done 26 episodes that are hour long episodes. I’ve done just the life of Joseph Smith, and it’s not like I name every blade of grass that he stepped on, but you may wanna listen. So you’ll find if I did or not, but I thought many people didn’t have the privilege that has been mine to go on site so many times and actually have a home in Nauvoo for 15 years. Make sure that, you know, I had a chance to read all his words and to write about and learn about all the people that were baptized during the time he was President of the Church. I am very grateful to Clayton for giving me that opportunity. But for those of you in this listening audience, you may want to tune into something called Impressions of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Then you’ll know for sure, Hey, this lady really does have a testimony. I am a believer.

Hank Smith:                      51:54                   Ah, Susan, thank you for being here.

Dr. Susan Black:               51:56                   Oh, it’s been a treat to see you both.

Hank Smith:                      51:59                   We hope everyone will go over to impressions of a prophet.com. What a wonderful treat, especially for those who were once in your class who think, oh, I would love to hear that again. Well, guess what?

John Bytheway:               52:10                    I remember that day.

Hank Smith:                      52:13                   A lot to listen to.

John Bytheway:               52:15                   I just wanna be more like Captain Fear Not, except I don’t want to depart early from this life.

Hank Smith:                      52:21                   Yeah. Watch out what you asked for, right, Susan? What a treat again, to have you back on followHIM. I know you don’t think this, but it’s, it’s truly legendary your career at BYU. I work in the building where you used to work. It’s an honor to get to talk to students. They’ll say, my parents, my dad, my mom had Susan Easton Black, and I think, oh, I’m so sorry you have me. That’s still being passed on. I just feel like that is noteworthy. It’s beautiful to give your life to speaking good of the prophet Joseph Smith. From Moroni said his name would be known for both good and evil. Sometimes we don’t speak enough good and you, but you have. Thanks for being one of those voices. It’s the real one, John the Real Joseph Smith.

John Bytheway:               53:07                   Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith:                      53:08                   Not the villain that someone has created. With that, we want to thank Dr. Susan Easton Black for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. We also, every episode remember our founder Steve Sorensen, and we hope you’ll join us next week. Things are gonna continue to get darker and darker for the Saints next week on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Follow him.co. That’s follow him.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.