Doctrine & Covenants: EPISODE 29 (2025) – Doctrine & Covenants 77-80 – Part 1
Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Coming up in this episode on followHIM.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:00:05 I look at these verses and I think there is so much going on that’s amazing. We had temples and gathering and President Nelson says in the last conference that we have spiritual momentum and more youth going out. He’s announced 200 temples since he’s become a prophet. We look at the world, sometimes we can get so lost in the scary, but God is working a marvelous work and a wonder.
Hank Smith: 00:00:37 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I’m here with my co-host, John Bytheway, who will speak in our ears the words of wisdom, Doctrine & Covenants Section 78 verse two. Now, John, it’s talking about Joseph Smith here, but it could be talking about you as well. Speak in our ears, the words of wisdom.
John Bytheway: 00:00:59 I hope so. I’ll repeat words that I’ve heard other people speak because I’m not that wise, but I know people who are.
Hank Smith: 00:01:06 You are the wise old sage up on the hill. We go to seek your advice.
John Bytheway: 00:01:11 Emphasis on the word old.
Hank Smith: 00:01:16 John, we are joined today by Dr. Matt Hinton, a very good friend of mine. Matt, welcome to followHIM.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:01:24 Thanks. I’m excited to be with you two today. Thanks for the opportunity.
Hank Smith: 00:01:28 Oh man, I love that voice. I’ve known it since the 19 hundreds. John, Matt, we are looking at sections 77 through 80 today. We just finished with a major section of the Doctrine & Covenants. We talked about it with both Dr. Dirkmaat in our Voices of the Restoration episode last week, and Dr. Fluhman in our lesson on section 76. It was huge, but we’re moving on now. John, when you think Book of Revelation, what comes to mind? because that’s how we start in section 77.
John Bytheway: 00:02:03 Yeah, it’s like a different language almost. I think of beasts and horns and many eyes. But look at section 77, like who gets to just have a Q&A with the Lord like that? It is crazy.
Hank Smith: 00:02:19 Yeah. Why don’t we just study the scriptures today with Joseph Smith and the Lord as one does. As we often do. Matt, as you’ve looked at these few sections, what do you want to do today?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:02:30 I’m so excited. These are some rich, rich sections relative to some prophetic emphasis of President Nelson being prepared for the second coming in 77. When we talk about the book of Revelation, you’re talking about a book that was written by John the Revelator to a group of people in the ancient churches. Where Joseph opens up in chapter four of the book of Revelation we’re talking second coming and some of the preparations for the last days. That’s what Joseph starts asking some questions about how fun to be able to sit down and say, Heavenly Father, what does this mean? No wonder Joseph can say it’s the plainest book ever, because if you could just ask God and he gives you an answer, then it’s pretty plain. So I’m excited to explore just some of what Joseph experienced there. I’m also excited with Doctrine & Covenants 78, looking at the United Firm, what the Lord was really trying to do there, not just at that time, but overall and what that means for us.
00:03:42 One of the things I’ve loved about studying the scriptures, my job is training teachers, trying to help teachers learn what the problems are that the scriptures are trying to solve, that the Lord’s trying to solve for us. Exploring some of that. In 78, you both got a son going out on a mission. John, you’ve got missionaries. I’ve had a couple, some of those missionary calls and what that looks like in 79 and 80. We’re going to see some things that the Lord wants to reveal about himself to us. We’ll recognize and talk about some of the things President Nelson’s trying to prepare us for.
Hank Smith: 00:04:21 Fantastic. I am looking forward to this. I get to teach the book of Revelation in some of my classes at BYU. John is able to say things with symbols that I found to be really powerful. Maybe I can get a chance to talk about that. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:04:36 And as we know, John’s really the only one that’s been allowed to write it.
John Bytheway: 00:04:40 Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:04:42 What we have is really unique to John the Revelator and the opportunity to paint a picture for us, an allegory of how to prepare for the last days and what the Savior’s role is going to be in that.
Hank Smith: 00:04:57 It reminds me a bit of what we talked about two weeks ago, John, when we said it’s bigger on the inside. The book of Revelation might look like, oh, I’m not going to understand this. It’s way outside my realm, and no, step inside, start to look around, start to learn the language. You’re going to say, wow, there’s a lot more here than I thought. Now, I said earlier, John, that I’ve known Matt a long time. I’ve known him longer than I’ve known my wife. Matt and I go back almost three decades. That’s about as long as anybody I keep in touch with these days. You go back any further and people know me a little too well, but Matt is new to our followHIM audience. Can you give us a bio for him John? and I might throw in a couple of details of things I know.
John Bytheway: 00:05:40 Yeah, please do. Dr. Matthew Hinton. He’s been employed with seminaries and institutes. We used to call it CES now we say SNI.
Hank Smith: 00:05:48 Right?
John Bytheway: 00:05:49 With Seminaries and Institutes since 2000 turn of the century. He is a pre-service trainer. I don’t know about you guys, but I think pre-service is a church jargon. I’ve never heard anybody else talk about pre-service. I wonder if there was a pre-service, pre-existence training. He works with BYU students who are seeking to become Seminary Institute teachers. His assignments have included a seminary teacher, of course, and a principal assistant area director. He received a bachelor’s degree from BYU in Marriage, Family and Human Development, a master’s from Utah State in Family and Human Development, a doctorate from the American College of Education and Educational Leadership. He enjoys the outdoors, pickleball, and being with his family. He served his mission in Panama, Panama City and met his sweetheart at BYU. They have four beautiful daughters. They live in Payson. Matt, we’re really glad to have you. We should have a pre-service, pre-training for pre-followHIM.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:07:01 I think we had that today, didn’t we?
John Bytheway: 00:07:03 Yeah, we kind of did. Yeah. Before we pushed record, we’ve been here for a minute.
Hank Smith: 00:07:08 Yeah, we’ve been here for a while, but I’ve enjoyed it because I got two of my friends here and John too, so, um…
John Bytheway: 00:07:17 I think he means John the Revelator. Which one’s your friend?
Hank Smith: 00:07:20 Yeah. Yeah, John, when you know someone for almost three decades, you get a sense for who they really are. Matt Hinton is good to the core all the way through and through. He and I have been in different circumstances together. Our very first time working together was a program called EFY. It’s now called FSY as we all know, but it was EFY. We worked together back in Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas. I still remember like it was yesterday, Matt.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:07:50 It was a great time working with you. There’s nothing better.
Hank Smith: 00:07:53 Yeah. Anyone who is at that Lawrence, Kansas session needs to message us on YouTube today so we can have a reunion from the 19 hundreds. Matt is a disciple of Christ through and through. His wife is just a step above him.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:08:09 About four steps above me.
Hank Smith: 00:08:11 Okay.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:08:11 That’s where she’s at.
John Bytheway: 00:08:13 Like all of us. Yeah.
Hank Smith: 00:08:16 Hey John, Matt, I’m going to read from the Come, Follow Me manual. Let’s get started. Let’s have some fun. The lesson is called I Will Lead You Along. It’s section 77 through 80. As we talked about less than two years after the Church of Jesus Christ was restored, it had more than 2000 members. It’s like a stake and was growing quickly. In March, 1832, Joseph Smith met with other church leaders to discuss church business, the need to publish revelations, purchase land to gather on and care for the poor to meet these needs. The Lord called on a small number of church leaders to form the United Firm, a group that would join their efforts to advance the cause of the Lord in these areas, but even in such administrative matters, the Lord focused on the things of eternity. Ultimately, the purpose of a printing press or a storehouse, like everything else in God’s kingdom, is to prepare his children to receive a place in the celestial world and the riches of eternity. If those blessings are hard to comprehend right now, in the midst of the busyness of daily life, he reassures us be of good cheer for I will lead you along. I love it. Even in administrative matters, the Lord is saying, let me teach along the way. Let me show you some things you may have not thought of. With that, Matt, how do you want to go about this? I know all of these sections are different from one another.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:09:37 Yeah. There is a little bit of a common theme though in the terms of the Lord leading us somewhere. The Lord is trying through, obviously with Section 76 that you just talked about, that landmark vision that altered the way the Saints thought about the celestial kingdom and the other kingdoms, and what the Lord is providing for us, where he wants us to end up, what the main goal that Heavenly Father has for us. This is a section where we combine some spiritual and temporal to really highlight the Lord’s real purpose in what he’s doing in the world today. We can see it today versus back then with the purpose of the restoration was to bring his children back to him. We’ll see this leading along in temporal and spiritual affairs. I don’t know if you heard this, but I heard this in the last general conference, the need to have a relationship with the Savior Jesus Christ. The Savior is trying to create ways where we can know him better and understand him better, and I think that’s what he’s trying to help these saints really come to grips with is who he is, what his ultimate goals are, and I hope that’s what we do. Do you want to just jump in?
Hank Smith: 00:10:59 Let’s do it.
John Bytheway: 00:11:00 I like the focus you’re giving us. What is the savior trying to reveal about himself in these sections? That way, even if one’s about the book of Revelation and one’s about the United Firm, we still have the common goal looking for where’s the Savior in this? I appreciate that.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:11:17 One of the skills I try to teach our teachers is how to be Christ-centered in our approach. Christ-centered teaching requires Christ-centered learning. How do you learn about the Savior from his words? What is it that he’s trying to teach? One of the things I’d like to do today is if Section 77 through 80 were the only books of scripture that we had, only chapters, we didn’t have any other scripture, what would they reveal about the Savior? About heavenly Father and their character and their attributes? I want everyone just to think about this. I’m going to frame it this way as we study today, what do you learn about the Savior’s mercy, protection, strength, power, desires, motives? What do we learn about his motives in everything that he’s doing in these sections? If we put it into that context and when we get to 77, we’re talking about the book of Revelation apocalypse, which means to reveal, what is he trying to reveal?
00:12:27 Well, he is trying to reveal himself, and if you go to Revelation chapter one verse one, we need to do a little background here. Revelation one, one, the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him to shew unto his servants these things must shortly come to pass. Dr. Frederick, you guys have had him on here before. He has a great article. If people want to look at it, we maybe connect it to the show notes or something here, but interpretive approaches to the Book of Revelation by Nicholas Frederick. He makes this statement as one of the three things to keep in mind. Always remember the first words of the book, the revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him, Jesus Christ, and then he just says, this is precisely what John is doing for his readers. Pulling back the veil revealing to us who Jesus Christ really is.
00:13:24 The name Jesus appears rather sparingly in the book of Revelation around a dozen times, but his influence, his importance lies behind every verse. That’s what we’re going to see and that’s what heavenly Father and the Savior’s going to reveal to Joseph here is let me teach you about who I am, who my son is, and what we really want to do in the world and what the restoration of the gospel really means. Just giving a little background, Joseph, back in section 45, they’ve been translating early on in the history of the church within months of the restoration, they’re translating the Bible in section 45. He’s told, stop translating the Old Testament. Start translating the New Testament. The context of that in section 45 is in verse 60 says, and now behold, this is 45 Doctrine & Covenants 45:60. Now behold I say unto you, it shall not be given unto you to know any further concerning this chapter, and he’s referring to Matthew 24.
00:14:29 This revelation that he’s seeking to understand this chapter where the apostles go to Jesus and say, when are you coming again? He says, you won’t know anything further concerning this chapter until the New Testament be translated and in all these things shall be made known. Joseph starts translating the New Testament. He goes until 1833, but in 1832 in March, that’s when we’re to this point where Joseph is getting to the book of Revelation. He’s had some visions that 46, 76, 77, 86 all come from his translation of the New Testament. This is probably received between March 4th and March 20th is what scholars have come up with. If it’s towards the latter end of that, within five days, Joseph is going to be dragged out of his home in Hiram, Ohio and beaten and Sidney Rigdon. That’s on March 25th. 76 came in early in February. What’s happened is it’s really altered what people have thought this restoration was in their minds, many of them a restoration of the New Testament Church.
00:15:41 What God is showing is that this is way bigger than just, this is the new and everlasting covenant. This is much larger than these early saints even thought about. Many of them struggle with that, which is why they turn to attacking Joseph. That’s where we get to 77. Now, before we jump into 77, I really want to remind us of the framework here. What do we learn? What is the Savior trying to teach us about himself as we study section 77? We probably need to go to chapter four because this is where he’s at. If you have Revelation chapter four, I don’t know about you, but man, I need to do this more. In my personal scripture study, Robert Millet said that so many revelations were received between 1831 and 1833 because Joseph had this intensive study of the scriptures where he is asking questions and God’s answering him.
00:16:45 This is why section 77 comes. This is why most of our sections have come because we are intensively studying the scriptures, trying to figure out what the Lord wants for us. I could probably do a much better job at my scripture study if I really went to the Lord with some questions. Verse one, revelation to chapter four, let’s start there because I think it has to paint a picture for what he’s asking about as he’s translating the New Testament. The book of Revelation is, like John said earlier, it’s a new language. This is like speaking a different genre of we’ve gone to a foreign country. We don’t understand the language and it’s on purpose because there’s some things that John’s trying to help us with relative to our own spirituality, to discern as he is painting these pictures and hide some things from people who aren’t sensitive and spiritually sensitive enough too.
Hank Smith: 00:17:45 As I’ve studied the book of Revelation, I’ve noticed a couple of things. One, very symbolic. Two, if you don’t know your Old Testament, the book of Revelation, I don’t want to say John’s a plagiarist, but there’s a lot of Old Testament in here. If you don’t know that Old Testament very well, you’re going to be lost. I use this example with my students. If I were to say in the Book of Revelation, if I was using the Book of Mormon as my basis, but someone hasn’t ever read the Book of Mormon. If I said I saw 2060 soldiers go to war, someone who hasn’t read the Book of Mormon would be confused. What does he mean? But if someone’s read the Book of Mormon they’re I know what he’s talking about. He’s talking about the Stripling Warriors. It’s the same way with the Book of Revelation. You have to know your Old Testament in order to understand it.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:18:38 Book of Revelation is an analogous history of the world from the beginning to the very end, this new and everlasting covenant that started in the Old Testament that started from the Premortal life that’s being restored, he uses the symbols from Ezekiel. I know John’s a big proponent of the footnotes. You look at these footnotes, he connects us to the Old Testament prophecies and visions.
Hank Smith: 00:19:08 If you don’t know those, it’s okay if you don’t. I don’t want anyone, oh man, I haven’t memorized the Old Testament. You’re okay. Neither have us three. Another point is understanding the context the people John is speaking to. We can liken these scriptures to us, but this is first century Christianity who is under serious persecution by the people around them. John is trying to give a message of encouragement to those first century Christians. Of course, we’re going to liken it to us. That’s what Joseph does here, but we don’t want to forget who he’s talking to.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:19:44 Yeah. Chapters two and three are all these letters to these seven churches, whether it’s seven or all the congregation, whether that’s symbolic or literal, but these ancient saints who need some hope, they’re trying to figure out how to live their lives in a world that’s highly sexualized. You think about the hellenization of everything, the challenges that they’re facing, trying to stay moral. The Lord’s through John saying there is a way through this. As you stay connected to the Savior, and we’ll talk about this in a minute in chapter five, but the Savior’s going to win here. I think it’s Dr. Frederick who says, if I could summarize this whole thing is Jesus wins.
Hank Smith: 00:20:32 Yeah, right? He’s going to show us how great God is in the beginning. He’s going to show us how great God is at the end and the final product. Then the middle gets dark, but if you know the beginning and you know the end, you can make it through the middle.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:20:49 That’s what I think is so fascinating about 77. Joseph is under some difficulty right now with some of the reports that are out there. They’re spreading rumors about Joseph and some of these challenges that are happening, and I think this is a timely revelation for him to say, let me teach you about myself. What’s going to happen here and what my main purpose is. That’s what we’re going to find in 77.
John Bytheway: 00:21:14 When I first heard the word apocalypse, I’m thinking somebody out there might be going, what’s that phrase you guys are using? Apocalyptic. Well, when you hear apocalypse, I’ve heard, oh, that’s like a big final battle or something. Maybe we can explain a little bit more. Apocalypse comes from this idea of end times, but apocalyptic like we’ve been talking as kind of a language. Hank, you mentioned the Old Testament. Would you say Daniel is in apocalyptic?
Hank Smith: 00:21:44 At least the second half. Yeah.
John Bytheway: 00:21:46 When we’re talking about apocalyptic as a language, Daniel’s one of those you mentioned Ezekiel, how would you guys characterize? Apocalyptic is like wild fanciful symbols. Is that how you?
Hank Smith: 00:21:59 Well, it wouldn’t have been wild to them, but it is wild to us.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:22:02 They would’ve understood this.
Hank Smith: 00:22:05 Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:22:06 This would’ve been a language they spoke.
Hank Smith: 00:22:09 Pretty normal to get a letter like this from a church leader.
John Bytheway: 00:22:14 I remember I took a class in college called business writing and this professor was, you need to be direct, honest and clear. You deny the listener the right to misunderstand. If I find one typo in your final project, it’s an F. It needs to be so clear and so concise. Seriously has to be so clear and concise because it’s business writing. Like I always tell my students, Isaiah did not take this class. We would say those who wrote apocalyptic did not take this class. It’s a different way of right? My book of Revelation professor was Richard Draper. I loved what he said. He said, if you’re going to write something super important and you don’t want anybody to tamper with it, you write it in code, and that’s how he introduced the idea of apocalyptic to us was it’s in code. People they don’t know what to do. Should I take some of the horns off or one of the eyes or what do I do with this symbol? It has remained pretty intact from what I’ve read, but it’s in code and I love that. 77 is, okay, here’s this code. I have some questions about this book written in apocalyptic code.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:23:31 Even some of the answers that are given, we still have to…
John Bytheway: 00:23:35 Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:23:36 It’s like, okay, it’s figurative and it’s literal because it is a symbolic language. If you wanted to tie it into the way the Savior, one of the reasons he taught in parables. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear, then you can see what the Lord’s trying to do, but there’s some of that with John probably that there’s a code here. Joseph gets to ask some questions and say, okay, help me break this code. Some of it’s clear, some of it’s still…
Hank Smith: 00:24:06 Murky. Yeah. If I was going to write a letter to both of you and I wanted to give you a lot of encouragement in dealing with difficulty, I didn’t want anyone to tamper with it. I’d use something that the three of us understand that other people don’t understand. I could speak Book of Mormon to you and if someone hasn’t read the Book of Mormon, they might be really lost. I think he does the same thing with the Old Testament also here. I wonder what you both think about this. When I run into something like Section 77, I think of one of my favorite statements, John, I’ve said it probably a dozen times on here from Richard L. Evans. He said, it is good to be faithful. It is better to be faithful and competent. I think what Joseph is trying to show us is we’re faithful, but I want to understand these things. I want to be able to read scripture and read it in a responsible way. Getting to the intent of the author and what the Lord is hoping that I’ll find. Maybe Section 77 is an example to all of us. Like you said, Matt is get into the scriptures, get some questions and get those answered.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:25:12 God is leaving us answers. How he has worked with his children from the very beginning until now and some of what’s there and why we have it is because he said, this is the problem they were encountering. This is the issues that the early church was having. These are the challenges that they were dealing with and this is how I help them. Through my apostles this is how I help them. There’s something to that with every chapter, right? The intent of the inspired author was to leave a record of how God solves problems for us, for them at the time, but for us too, the need to go to the scriptures with the right questions and understanding who he’s talking to and the problem that he’s trying to solve and what does that look like for us and how does that solution translate? That’s a fun way to look at scripture too.
Hank Smith: 00:26:10 Maybe this is a silly analogy, but I sometimes think of intense scripture study is like going to the gym. I don’t really want to at first, but I’m glad when I do and if I can get into the habit, it’s a whole lot easier if I can just get into the daily habit of getting into the scriptures saying, I really want to understand. It’s a mind stretching experience. It can be difficult. It’s so much easier to grab my phone and scroll so much easier rather than getting into the gym and doing hard things because as you’re reading the book of Revelation, it’s going to stretch your mind a little bit.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:26:47 President Nelson would say lazy learners.
Hank Smith: 00:26:50 Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:26:51 I think he uses that phrase that, and you’ve all had this experience where you’ve asked the right question and you’ve heard the voice of the Lord speak to you through scripture. When you have that experience, you go back it, it becomes less about the words on the page and more about the words that you’re hearing from heaven. The Bible Dictionary says you pray in Christ’s name when his words abide in you. Then it is possible for things to ask that for God to grant, well, how do we get his words in us in ways that connect us to him? That’s how we get led along.
Hank Smith: 00:27:27 I believe that same thing, I feel a little bit hypocritical because my employment is to read scripture, to try to understand it. I don’t think anyone out there listening should be beating themselves up saying, oh, I’m just a terrible scripture reader. I think I actually would be too if it wasn’t part of my job, but I do because it is part of my employment. I have found the joy of sitting down with scripture, really trying to understand, letting my mind really search and think through, go through storylines and doctrines, connecting across chapters, finding sister chapters. It’s been a joyous experience. President Hinckley was the only one who could say it becomes a love affair with the word of God.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:28:14 To your point too, with the listeners out there, I found that God is really anxious to jump out of heaven and let people know that he’s whatever effort we’ll give whatever energy we’ll put, the Lord jumps out of heaven to let us know that he recognizes that effort too.
Hank Smith: 00:28:31 Yeah, I think he’s anxious to bless.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:28:34 Well, should we get into 77 some?
Hank Smith: 00:28:36 Yeah, let’s do it.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:28:37 John, you want to take verse one, two and maybe Hank three and four.
John Bytheway: 00:28:42 Okay. Revelation chapter four, verse one. After this, I looked and behold a door was opened in heaven and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, come up hither and I will shew these things which must be hereafter, and immediately I was in the spirit and behold a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:29:09 Pretty remarkable verses a doors opened, John is given a look. I mean, imagine you walk into a room and the door’s open and you peek in. Now you’re in the throne room of God. That’s what we’re seeing here. He sees one sitting on the throne, so then we can go three and four. You got it?
Hank Smith: 00:29:31 He’s already borrowed from Isaiah. I will show you these things which must be hereafter. If you’re an Old Testament reader, you go, oh wait, I’ve heard that before. Verses three and four, and he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone, and there was a rainbow roundabout the throne in sight like unto an emerald and roundabout the throne were four and 20 seats, and upon those seats I saw four and 20 elders sitting clothed in white raiment and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:30:07 And I’m going to read five and six here, and out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God, and before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal, and in the midst of that throne and roundabout the throne were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. Okay, let’s just take those six verses. If you’re anybody, what questions do you have? If you’re anyone in the world , and you read those six verses, what questions come to mind here?
Hank Smith: 00:30:46 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even if you’re an informed scripture reader, you’re going to go, I don’t know what a jasper is or a sardine stone. What’s the rainbow? Yeah. 24’s gotta be symbolic. 24, does he actually see 24 people? What is a sea of glass like?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:31:06 Right? Yeah. That’s exactly what Joseph does. Joseph is he is reading these verses. I don’t know why he didn’t ask about some of the other things. You could go verse by verse and say, okay, well what is this and what is this and what is this? But for some reason, Joseph picks particular things to ask about. When Doctrine & Covenants 77, what’s the first thing he wants to know about?
Hank Smith: 00:31:32 Verse one it’s a question, what is the sea of glass spoken of in the fourth chapter sixth verse of Revelation?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:31:40 So I don’t know if that would’ve been my first question, but it’s the question Joseph asked, he sees God sitting up on a throne surrounded by these jasper and sardine stone and emerald and this thunderings and lightning, these seven lamps that are probably symbolic of could be the seven churches. If you look at the footnote there, of the seven spirits, you’ve got the seven servants of the seven churches from chapter one that we’re referring back to here, and then the letters we’ll find out in a minute the 24 elders there because he asked that question also, it’s interesting that he asked about this sea of glass like a crystal. Now let’s go back and think about if these were the only chapters of scripture that we had, what is the Savior trying to reveal about himself? As we get the answer to this, if we’re thinking about what President Nelson’s been trying to focus on the last conference, he says, I don’t know when the second coming’s coming, but what I do know is I’m being impressed that we need to prepare for that great and judge, great and terrible day. Right? What is the Savior trying to reveal about himself that would give us hope that this is going to be a day that we’re going to overcome? What do we learn about him that would give us confidence in building this relationship with him? We get that from the answer. The answer here is what’s the answer to this?
Hank Smith: 00:33:14 The answer is, it is the earth in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state. You know what I love here, Matt, is the Lord doesn’t do exactly what we all just did. If Joseph asked me this question, I would say, okay, well, Joseph, listen, we’ve got to understand the nature of apocalyptic literature. We have to go back to the history of the first century. The Lord doesn’t do that. I’d like to watch him as a teacher. I like to pick up on the way the Lord teaches. He uses simple, succinct answers. It is the earth in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state. Now, Joseph has his bearings. He has somewhere to serve from. A good teacher does this. Let me give you something that you can clue in on. Something that you can say, oh, I get that. Let’s reach out from there a little bit at a time.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:34:05 Yeah. If you think about that, in that footnote there, he’s actually saying, let me, let me help you begin with the end in mind, and if you were to put it in the words of President Nelson, you’d say, let me help you think celestial, and he says, the sea of glass that God’s sitting upon is the earth in its celestial state, in its glorified form, but there’s more to it than that. Joseph then teaches a little bit more about this. When you get into Section 130, there’s some other details in Section 130 that help us. What is the Savior trying to teach us about his character, the father’s character? What is it about them that allows us to trust and have confidence in what he’s revealing to us? Section 130 verses one through nine. These are sections where Joseph is correcting some false doctrine that’s been taught about this idea that the Lord dwells in our hearts and it’s an old sectarian notion.
00:35:14 The context of this is really interesting to me. Look at verse one. When the Savior shall appear, we shall see him as he is. We shall see that he is a man like ourselves. Then this scripture we always quote, but we usually quote it out of context because we’re talking about the same sociality which exists among us, but it’s actually in the context of a relationship with Jesus Christ. The same sociality that exists among us here will exist among us there only it’ll be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy. This idea that the Savior we’re going to have the relationship we’re building with him, that same sociality that we create here will…
Hank Smith: 00:36:04 Will continue.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:36:06 Yeah. Now he goes on and says some other things about this. Look at verse… Let’s just go 4, 5, 6, and 7. You want to pick up there, Hank?
Hank Smith: 00:36:16 Yeah. Joseph asks a question here that he’s going to answer. Verse four. He says, here’s the question. Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time and man’s time according to the planet on which they reside? Answer yes, but there are no angels who minister to this earth, but those who do belong or have belonged to it. The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth, but they reside in the presence of God on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future and are continually before the Lord. Verse eight, the place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:37:01 The answer we got from the Lord was it’s the earth in it’s sanctified, immortal, eternal state, and Joseph adds to it later. We learn some things. The Lord adds to this, that this is a great Urim and Thummim in that Urim and Thummim, you look back at verse seven that the past, present and the future are all seen through this. God sits on this throne on a great Urim and Thummim that allows him to know and and well because he of who he is, he knows it’s all things are present before him. There’s no time. There’s no past, present, future. He knows it all because he sees it all. When I think about what that teaches me about the character of God and the character of the Savior here, we worship beings who know the beginning from the end, who have a plan that is immutable and unchangeable and unconquerable.
00:38:04 Elder Renlund talked about sometimes when we think about the second coming, we think about this apocalyptic writing. You think about the beasts and the scary things Elder Renlund talked about in the last conference that sometimes we think about the second coming with fear and trepidation, but the person in control of it all is someone who knows the beginning from the end. He knows how to prepare our state. Now, you think about the opposite. Paul says, we look through a glass darkly, so he says, we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now, I know in part, but then shall I know even as I am known, our sea of glass, our Urim and Thummim isn’t as clear because we’re not where God is. I see what’s going on right now. I see what’s going on in the moment. I see what’s going on in my life, the circumstances I’m in.
00:38:57 I think this is why President Nelson says if we focus on the Savior, it’s more important than the circumstances of our lives because his glass is clear and pure and he knows the beginning from the end. He reveals something about his character in this verse that should give us all confidence and hope. One example of God preparing for this, when we talked about the 116 pages, the loss of those, this all happens kind of at the same time. God’s saying to Joseph, Hey, I don’t think that’s a good idea to let Martin take these. Hey Nephi, you should probably write another record.
John Bytheway: 00:39:39 Amazing.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:39:40 No, Joseph, I don’t know that that’s a good idea. Hey, Nephi, let’s really put another. That’s the capacity of the God we worship who sits on a throne on a sea of glass that’s a Urim and Thummim that all things before him that all things are taken care of because of him. That’s what that verse reveals to me about the Savior.
Hank Smith: 00:40:04 Here’s the Lord talking to both Nephi, Mormon and Joseph at the same time. All different time periods. Right? Here’s Mormon in 400AD. Here’s Nephi in 600BC. Here’s Joseph in 1827. He’s saying, that’s a terrible idea. I love that, Matt. That’s a bad idea. Nephi, you better write that. Mormon you better put that in. Joseph, that’s a really bad idea. Nephi you on that? Mormon you putting that in? That is a God you can worship.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:40:35 Yeah. What kind of hope does that provide? That our God sits on that throne with that capability? You think about the listeners that are out there that are dealing with difficult things, difficult challenges. That glass seems so dark. How do you connect to the Savior in a way you can see through his glass. My sister had this perspective on life. She shouldn’t have. I don’t know where she got it from. I think it was just her faith, but I have a sister who passed away two years ago. She got diabetes when she was eight. Didn’t really take care of it. All through her teenage years, she’s in the hospital and out of the hospital and it’s doing all kinds of damage to her body. Those who know what diabetes does, it is terrible. By the time she is in her early twenties, she’s starting to take care of herself a little better.
00:41:30 She goes on a mission, serves in Fresno. She has to come home early because she gets diabetic retinopathy. That’s where the retina detaches. She comes home. She gets a glass eye. She’s got this glass eye that they make it so it can track. Eventually her other eye starts to go out too. Well, eventually she’s totally blind. She decides that she’s going to write books. She starts self-publishing some books and known as the blind author and she ends up having two kids getting married. She loses her kidneys. My brother gives her a kidney. A few years after that, she ends up having to get a pancreas. She’s no longer diabetic at the time, but the damage is done to her body. All the things that this sister goes through, and yet I’ve never met a more joyful, happy, conquer the world person. It just always boggled my mind. I didn’t quite understand. She’d have every reason to be bitter and angry and upset. She just wasn’t. She had a relationship with Jesus Christ and an understanding of a bigger picture, a thinking celestial picture that didn’t get her mired down in some of the challenges she was going through. I think she trusted in a God who knew the beginning and the end. That’s hard to do sometimes. You think about when you’re going through it. It’s not easy to think that way.
Hank Smith: 00:43:03 A couple of things here, one Isaiah 55. My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts. He might add, I see things you don’t see. You cannot behold with your natural eyes for the present time, the design of your God. You can’t see what I see. Matt, you’ve shown us section 77 and Section 130. I noticed that those are 10 years apart. One thing we can see is that Joseph Smith, he studies the scriptures. I mean, look at this. He’s still talking about this same idea that he was asking about in section 77 10 years later, it’s grown. He’s learned more about it. He’s applying it in different ways. Second, the book of Revelation is helping the saints of the first century understand God. It’s helping Joseph and the saints of 1832 understand God, which in turn is helping the saints of 2025 learn about God. That’s the incredible thing about scripture. Let’s go back to the source here. John is writing to these seven congregations who are all struggling both internally and externally, and the very first message is we have a God who knows everything, who sees everything, who sees the past, the present, and the future. You are in very good hands. We can talk about things, but from the outset we’re in very capable hands.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:44:36 I love that God expands our vision to say, I’ve got you. I’ve always had you and I’ll always have you, if you’ll have me. I’ve got you and I always have. Whether it’s the church in ancient of days, to my sister, to whatever our listeners are going through right now, if you’ll have me, I have you.
Hank Smith: 00:45:06 We’ve just done two verses of 77, the few verses in Revelation and you can stop and say, okay, I’m struggling. I’m hurting. I’m confused, but it comes back to that first principle, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We believe in God, the Eternal Father in his son Jesus Christ. I love the way you started this, Matt. It’s not just about understanding the book of Revelation. It’s let’s get back further to the Lord’s character.
John Bytheway: 00:45:36 Yeah. What I see is he’s not a standoffish, disinterested God that created us and walked away and thought, I wonder what’s going to happen over there, but he is involved. I keep thinking of Elder Kearon saying, he is in relentless pursuit of us. He’s an involved God right here. What we’re learning without him saying is I’ll reveal things to you. I’ll tell you if you ask, we have a God who’s willing to talk to us. How nice. Instead of saying, oh, the second comings going to be great and terrible, but I’m not telling you anything. How much nicer to have some expectations to be able to look around and go, whoa. Yep. That was supposed to happen. Yep. That’s supposed to happen.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:46:20 Which actually leads us right into the next two questions and verses because the answers to these tell a lot about what God’s desire for us is. We ask two more questions in two and three, but if you’re thinking about what it’s teaching us about what God’s motives are, what the Savior’s motives are, what they have always been from the earliest of the ancient of days to now, it gets interesting what these two verses teach us about his motives. As we go through the answers, let’s do both questions then the answers, but what did the answers teach us about his motive? Here’s question number two. What are we to understand by the four beasts spoken of? In the same verse, if we’re back in revelation, we asked about the sea of glass, but in those first couple verses, there’s some beasts. They’re four beasts full of eyes before and behind in verse six. He says, what are these beasts spoken of? In the same verse, the answer, John, you want to read that?
John Bytheway: 00:47:24 They are figurative expressions used by the revelator John.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:47:29 Which means what?
Hank Smith: 00:47:32 Figurative means it’s symbolic.
John Bytheway: 00:47:33 Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:47:34 They’re supposed to represent something. Yep.
John Bytheway: 00:47:38 They are figurative expressions used by the Revelator John in describing heaven, the paradise of God, the happiness of man and of beasts and of creeping things and of the fouls of the air. Hank is my cat included in here?
Hank Smith: 00:47:57 It’s definitely not with the happiness of man.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:48:02 It all depends on what kind of cat you have John.
John Bytheway: 00:48:05 If you want this cat, you can have it. That which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual. Is everything clear?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:48:19 Yeah. It’s all clear, right?
John Bytheway: 00:48:20 Yeah. Yeah. The spirit of man in the likeness of his person as also the spirit of the beast and every other creature which God has created. That’s one of those you have to read slow, huh?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:48:34 What are you learning about the motives of God? What are the beasts that are in the throne room of God? Well, they’re a figurative representation of what?
Hank Smith: 00:48:42 God’s creations.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:48:44 God’s creations, all of his creations, every creation that he’s ever made, everything’s numbered before him. These beasts represent all the things that God loves and that God is interested in and that he’s invested in. Now it’s important. Verse three, are the four beasts limited to individual beasts or do they represent classes or orders learned that they’re figurative now? He says they’re limited to four individual beasts, which are shown to John to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined orders or sphere of creation in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity. So I think you have to do those two verses together because what is it teaching you about the motives of God, the God in this throne room, who knows the beginning and the end. What does he teach you about his motives with all of his creations wherever they are? What do you think?
John Bytheway: 00:49:49 I just underlined in verse two, the happiness of man. Whoa. Really? That’s what he’s concerned about. The answer in verse three, the enjoyment of the eternal felicity. I’m hearing man is that he might have joy. I’m hearing what is the end of all of this? Hank, do you remember our discussion with Dr. Geritt, Dirkmaat about a God who’s angry with us and abhors us, the teachings of some of what Joseph Smith must have heard, and then you see this. He actually wants, has planned for and prepared for our happiness.
Hank Smith: 00:50:27 Yeah. I’m seeing here, Matt, that God, like you said, verse two, they represent his creations, his investment, his work. What Joseph is asking in verse three is, is it all the same to him? Yeah, and he’s saying, no, no, no, no, no. Each one is in their order or sphere of creation. I have almost priorities with my creations. I want them all to enjoy eternal felicity, but that doesn’t mean they’re all the same.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:50:57 Yep. In whatever sphere or order they’re created in, but they all have a measure of their creation to be fulfilled. That’ll be an eternal felicity, whatever that looks like for that creation. Yep. But his purpose is eternal felicity for all that he’s created.
John Bytheway: 00:51:23 How nice is that to hear.
Hank Smith: 00:51:25 To know the character of God? Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:51:28 You think about these verses again in that context that we talked about, if this was all the verses that we ever had to study, wow. God reveals in each chapter his character and his motives. We’ve talked about a little bit about his character. Well, the next couple verses are going to reveal his power to do it. Going back to those other verses, you think of second Nephi 2:25, Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy. That word joy, it’s in the footnote there of second Nephi 2:25. It’s the only place I’ve ever found a definition for the word joy. It is defined there as the potential to become like God.
00:52:19 If you think about that that’s what joy is. Christ in Hebrews says, the joy that was set before him is what allowed him to suffer. Our potential to become like the Father is that joy that allowed him to go through what he went through. But if joy is a potential to become like God, I can be suffering right now and it doesn’t change my joy. I can be having a bad hair day from the simplest to the worst suffering that’s out there because of verses two and three, because of what we’ve learned about God so far, my joy is intact. I just have to learn to trust in this being that is the creator of heaven and earth.
Hank Smith: 00:53:06 Yeah. I really love this so far. I haven’t read this section like this in the past, where the Lord is setting up with using Revelation chapter four, describing the plan of salvation, the why behind the plan of salvation. Now, you said we’re going to get to the how and who. Who are these people that he is so interested in? Who are these 24 elders, these seven churches? Why is he so interested in them?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:53:39 What is he going to do? We’re going to get down and do eight through 11, but what is he going to do? What is his purpose in eight through 11? Who’s going to do it? Who’s going to fulfill it, and who’s he going to use to make that happen to carry out the salvation of all of his children? What’s… it’s fascinating to watch him reveal himself in these simple questions that Joseph asks. He outlines so much of his purposes. I don’t know if Joseph was specific to these questions or whatever. These questions particularly outline what God is doing and started doing with these ancient of days, the ancient churches. What was he trying to do? He was trying to gather them. He was trying to strengthen them. He was trying to bring them hope and peace, and he was trying to help them find solace and trusting in what they have been taught not being lost in the world that they were getting wrapped up in.
00:54:37 That’s what he is doing in this chapter. He’s revealing himself and what his plan is. Quick summary of four. You notice that he’s got some questions about the eyes and wings. It’s pretty clear their eyes are representation of the light and knowledge that is, they’re full of knowledge, they’re wings are representation of power to move and act. These creations, they have the capability of intelligence and light and knowledge and the power to act for themselves to choose, but it’s also revealing a little bit about God. He has these beasts. If you look at it in the number of wings and things like that. Christ has perfect power and perfect knowledge. God has that perfect understanding to help us fulfill the measure of our creation, which is what we just talked about. Then we get five where, what do we understand by the four and 20 elders? We are to understand, these are the elders whom John saw. This is a specific group of people. These are the 24 elders that have been faithful in the seven churches. I don’t know whether they’ve been martyred or whatever that has looked like they have been faithful in the ministry and are in the paradise of God. That’s chapter four. We’ve been revealed. Now we go to chapter five. Let’s go to the revelation for chapter five.
Hank Smith: 00:56:05 I love Revelation five. If you want to learn about Jesus Christ and who he is, this is a great chapter to learn about Him.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:56:14 There’s some powerful things right here. So let’s just start in chapter five, verse one. We’re going to go down a little ways. Joseph doesn’t ask as many questions. We get just a couple of questions here with six and seven. We’re going to read a little bit in Revelation five because it’s Hank’s favorite. John, do you want to start verses one and two and maybe Hank three and four? Then we’ll get down to five.
John Bytheway: 00:56:43 Sure. Okay. Revelation chapter five, verse one, and I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:56:58 Remember, we’re in the throne room that God that we’ve just talked about sitting on this throne, and he’s got a book in his hand. Okay, keep going.
John Bytheway: 00:57:06 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:57:15 Would you have wanted to be in this room? What would this have been like?
Hank Smith: 00:57:18 It’s not so difficult. Someone might read this and go, I’m lost. You’re not really as lost as you think. Think of God with his plan of salvation and asking who will play the role of redeemer?
John Bytheway: 00:57:32 Yeah. Who’s going to make this happen?
Hank Smith: 00:57:35 Who’s going to make this plan happen?
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:57:37 The book is this plan. We’re going to learn that in just a minute. Who’s going to make this book? Who’s going to fulfill this?
Hank Smith: 00:57:44 Who actually is out there that can play this crucial role in this plan? In these next verses, you see that John is upset because there’s no man in heaven. Now we’re under the earth. We even looked under it. . . There is nobody who could open the book to look thereon. I wept much because no man was found worthy to open the, read the book neither look thereon. There is nobody with this kind of capability who can do what is going to be asked of the redeemer of this plan. And that means, look, I weep much. Doesn’t that mean I have nowhere to turn now. I cannot progress because there’s no one who can play that role.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:58:27 We cannot fulfill the measure of our creation that God we just talked about in these creations that he has. There’s got to be someone with the power and the wisdom we learn from the wings and the eyes that can open this book, fulfill this plan and make it happen. Verse five, go ahead, Hank. I know you’re excited about these verses Hank.
Hank Smith: 00:58:49 I get weird about this. There’s John. He’s weeping. I’m never going to progress. One of these elders says, you can stop crying. Weep not. Behold the lion of the tribe of Judah, he is going to open the book and loose the seals thereof. But interesting. Both of you. He looks to see a lion, but he doesn’t see a lion.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:59:16 If you were just to stop in verse five, you think, okay, what is John going to draw? If he’s going to put a picture, you’re going to see Aslan.
Hank Smith: 00:59:24 Coming in. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:59:27 Right. You’re going to see each tribe had their banner and on the tribe of Judah, that lion banner.
Hank Smith: 00:59:34 And he’s going to come save the world. This hero, this king of the jungle. The lion.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 00:59:39 Yeah.
Hank Smith: 00:59:40 But he doesn’t see a lion. He turns and sees the lamb. A slain lamb has seven horns and seven eyes. We talked about that being the eyes are light and knowledge. He’s got seven. He’s got perfect light knowledge. He’s got perfect power. He comes in verse seven. He, I would say, accepts his role. Here am I send me.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:00:06 Can you just feel the hope in the world go up wherever I am, whatever it is, the hope, whether it’s the seven churches, whether it’s Joseph’s day, whether it’s our day, the hope that goes up, when the slain lamb as it had been slain, that Greek word slain, slaughtered having seven horns and seven eyes. Now Dr. Frederick has an article where he compared six, six commentaries, and one of the things I thought was really interesting about this commentaries, about this verse says this, it’s from Beale. The book in chapter five should be understood as a covenantal promise of an inheritance when seen in the light of the above two identifications of the book and of the broader theological context of the apocalypse concerning paradise lost and paradise regained. You think about covenant confidence. You hear when President Nelson’s talking about what gives us covenant confidence and what gives us this book is a covenantal promise. When the Savior says, here am I, God has made a covenant to save his children. The Savior took it upon himself to fulfill that, to make that covenant possible, to make that promise possible, to be fulfilled without him, without the lamb. There’s no way.
Hank Smith: 01:01:52 That’s why you feel that of John weeping. I wept much. There’s no other way. Unless the Lord steps up. Unless the Savior says, I will do it, we are all stuck.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:02:07 He says, don’t weep, don’t cry wherever you are. Don’t cry. There is a Savior. There is a Savior.
Hank Smith: 01:02:16 I’m going to try to summarize this because I’ve never seen this before, but if we were to take the first four questions, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You could put these into groups. One through four is almost, we believe in God. Five through seven is God’s plan. Eight through 11 is really the gospel and us. Then 12 through the rest is the second coming and the restoration and the second coming. He’s going to make this all happen. Oh my word. This isn’t random. These aren’t random questions. These are holy cow.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:03:01 We said, what questions would you have if you read this? Well, Joseph asked specific questions. These specific questions lead us to the character, power, and plan.
Hank Smith: 01:03:12 Matt, I am loving this, as you can tell, like my heart is beating. I am pretty excited. I’m seeing something that I think is correct. Let me run this by both of you. When I look at section 77, initially, I might just see a bunch of random questions about the Book of Revelation and say, we don’t really need to cover this. It’s just a bunch of questions about the book of Revelation. But Matt, as you’re laying this out, I’m seeing the first four questions we learn about God, who he is and what his motives are, five through seven, his plan of salvation, eight through 11, you’re showing us is his gospel and our role in that. If we were to keep going, he would talk about the tribes of Israel, sealing the tribes of Israel, right to him. Then you’ve got 12 through basically the rest saying, the second coming, he will finish his plan. He will return. These are not random questions. They’re an outline of the gospel, the simplicity of the gospel. This is beautiful.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:04:25 Yeah. It’s marvelous to me. You just summarize, if you go back eight through 11, this is about these angels that God has to send to the world. Yet there’s one that says, wait, we’re not going to hurt anybody yet. Don’t do anything because we’ve got to restore all things. We’ve got to get this gospel to everybody. We’ve got to let everybody know the good news that we just learned about our Savior, Jesus Christ, that the lamb has been slain. He’s opening this book and he’s carrying out God’s plan. You go down to 10 and 11, who’s going to help with this? When is it going to happen? It’s going to happen in this 6,000 years, but who’s going to help? It’s going to be these 144,000 who are missionaries and high priests, gatherers that are going to go out and gather. If President Nelson’s looking at this, he’s saying, we’re in this gathering. Sometimes we look at the second coming and we think of it like, oh no, there’s all this bad.
01:05:32 There’s wickedness. I look at these verses and I think there is so much going on that’s amazing. We had temples and gathering, and President Nelson says in the last conference that we have spiritual momentum and more youth going out, and he’s announced 200 temples since he’s become a prophet. We look at the world. Sometimes we can get so lost in the scary, but God is working a marvelous work and a wonder, Joseph outlines it for us, or John the Revelator outlines it for us. God says, Joseph, here’s the big picture of what’s going to happen. You’re going to be part of it. There’s 2000 members at this time.
Hank Smith: 01:06:18 Yeah. He asks the perfect questions. It’s almost as if the Holy Ghost is saying, Ooh, ask this one. Ask this one, because we’re going to lay out the plan of salvation from beginning to end in 15 questions about the Book of Revelation. I mean.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:06:36 Is that remarkable?
Hank Smith: 01:06:38 Section 77 has just opened up to me.
John Bytheway: 01:06:42 What we’re seeing here, we’ve discovered it before, is every once in a while there are things that are hidden in plain sight. I love that phrase. It’s always been there, but you’ve never seen it before. We just saw a sequence, an orderliness. I like this word. Sometimes an elegance to some of the ways that God reveals things. You go, I’ve missed that, but it’s got, what have I heard you say, Hank? Well, you said the pen of heaven about eloquence, but I’m talking about elegant symmetry. You see it and you think, Ooh, look at that. This is orderly. There’s a reason this was revealed in this order. I like what you said, Hank. Okay, now ask this question, because we’re following a sequence here.
Hank Smith: 01:07:28 Matt, I wish I could express what’s in my heart here, especially that gathering of Israel. Here he is. Look at the very end of the answer for verse 11. I’m going to use Israel to bring as many as will to come to the church of the firstborn to come into this covenant. As many as want to before the end.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:07:49 If you go to Jacob five.
Hank Smith: 01:07:51 So I was going to say, I knew.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:07:53 Yeah, you were going there. Weren’t you?
Hank Smith: 01:07:55 I was going. I even wrote it down Jacob five, where he says, let’s burn the whole thing. No, let’s go one more time.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:08:02 Yep.
Hank Smith: 01:08:03 One more time. You can tell we’ve been friends for a long time.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:08:07 Yeah. Think about this. There’s an important wording here when it comes to Jacob 5 that I think is really, really important. You look at verse 65, Jacob five, so this is talking about the last gathering that’s happening. As they begin to grow, they’ve grafted the natural branches back into the tree that have been spread out. They’re, this is the last time they’re nourishing. They’re trying to save the tree. Listen to this, and they begin to grow. You shall clear away the branches, which bring forth bitter fruit according to the strength of the good and the size thereof, and you shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once. Lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft and the grafter of shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard for it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard. Wherefore, you shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow.
Hank Smith: 01:09:11 It’s a careful, slow, deliberate pacing. It can’t go too fast or too big all at once. We’ll lose everyone if we do that. I love the slow, steady, deliberate, healthy, measured growth.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:09:26 Sometimes when we think about this second coming, you’re thinking about apocalypse. It’s not fearful. If you recognize all the the good that is growing, the good that is being done, the gathering that is happening, what God has prophesied through John the Revelator here, that we’re going to have 144,000 of the tribe of Israel, these angels that have the gospel to go to all the world, that everyone who wants it is going to be able to participate. Your son that’s going out on a mission here soon, and we’re going to get to this in a minute with the missionary calls here. Elder Holland has a statement where he says, if you can’t get excited about that kind of opportunity, you can’t get excited.
Hank Smith: 01:10:12 Excited. Yeah.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:10:13 Studying this has shown me that we worship a God who wants to save every one of his creations, and he’s provided a plan through his son, Jesus Christ, the lamb, the slain lamb, that all who will can be gathered to his covenant because he is coming again.
Hank Smith: 01:10:33 Coming up in part two of this episode.
Dr. Matt Hinton: 01:10:37 We covenant to have our hearts different, to be different, not just do different, but be different, to think and act and be like the Lord in how we view other people. That’s why I wanted to start with Mosiah, because that’s the sign that we’ve obtained a remission of our sins. Why is retaining a remission of our sins connected to what we do for others? Those two great commandments.
