John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Scott Woodward, Doctrine & Covenants Section 2.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:07 Let’s pick up back in the history in verse 40 where Moroni quotes more Old Testament passages, and so we’re just going to take the next two hours going through each one of these.

Hank Smith: 00:17 Yeah, stay with us still. This is going to be a 48-hour episode.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:22 Hey, listen, this took all night for Joseph Smith. Okay, just going through this. Let’s get a little glimpse. He says, he also quoted after he quoted Malachi, he also quoted the 11th chapter of Isaiah, which is about when the Lord will set his hand again the second time to recover scattered Israel and Moroni said it’s about to be fulfilled. And then he quoted also the third chapter of Acts 22nd, 23rd verses about the Lord raising up a prophet like Moses and that prophet was Christ, Moroni said. And he said, that day is not yet come when those who won’t hear his voice will be cut off, but it will soon come.

  00:57 Do you notice the theme back with Malachi that people will be left without root or branch if they don’t accept the Lord? If they don’t accept the covenant, then they’re going to be cut off, or those who won’t accept Christ’s voice, the Moses-like prophet, will be cut off. It’s all saying the same thing in different ways. It’s about if you don’t choose to become part of that family, you’re not going to have roots or branches, man. You’re not going to become part of that, and that’s a pretty stern threat.

  01:21 He quotes Joel 2:28-30. This is about God pouring out his Spirit upon all flesh. He said, this is not fulfilled yet, but it’s about to be. And he said that the fullness of the Gentiles was about to come in. This is where the Gentiles, instead of the Jews, become the primary custodians of the gospel, the keys of the kingdom, et cetera.

  01:40 He also quoted many other passages of scripture. Joseph said… I cannot mention them here. Oliver Cowdery later did. Oliver Cowdery learned from Joseph what those other passages were, and he mentions them. I won’t go through them all, but we’re talking Deuteronomy, Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and 1 Corinthians.

  01:59 Rather than walking through those one by one and being like, how does that relate to this big theme? I just want to read Joseph Smith’s 1842 summary, his synthesis statement of what Moroni said, which is really succinct. It’s packed. It’s one sentence that I think summarizes what all these verses are about and really does a good job summarizing the work of the restoration. Here’s what Joseph said, “This messenger [Moroni] proclaimed himself to be an angel of God, sent to bring the joyful tidings that [One] the covenant which God made with ancient Israel was at hand to be fulfilled.” What covenant’s that? The covenant that if they’re scattered, they will one day be gathered again. Deuteronomy 30. Two, “that the preparatory work for the Second Coming of the Messiah was speedily to commence.”

  02:46 There’s the Isaiah 11 stuff. There’s some of those other passages. Three, “that the time was at hand for the Gospel in all its fullness to be preached in power, unto all nations.” Ooh. Why? He ends this by saying “that a people might be prepared for the Millennial reign.” That’s the thesis statement of the Restoration, don’t you think right there? This is the season to: Number one, gather Israel. Why? To prepare for Messiah’s coming. How? By preaching the fullness of the gospel to every nation. Why? So that people can be ready for Jesus’s Second Coming. He mentioned Second Coming twice here. This is why we do what we do.

  03:24 And then I love the next line. Joseph says, “I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of His purposes in this glorious dispensation,” close quote. Pretty solid understatement. Typical Joseph Smith. That’s the message that Moroni is bringing that night is like big things are about to happen. Major covenantal promises of old are about to be fulfilled, and Joseph, you have something to do with this. That book in the hill nearby is pretty central to this work as well. We talk about the gathering of Israel and bringing people to the Messiah like, wow, what an instrument.

Hank Smith: 04:00 Scott, what a fantastic sentence. One sentence. As a teacher or as a parent, you could use that sentence you added, I was informed that I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of his purposes in this glorious dispensation. Isn’t that a beautiful idea for everyone? Wouldn’t that be great to take to your son or daughter? You have been chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about a piece. Some, I love how Joseph put in there, some. I’m not the main character, some of His purposes in this glorious dispensation. A little patriarchal blessing almost for all of us.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 04:41 Yeah, pair that with President Nelson’s worldwide youth devotional back in, I think, June 2018 where he’s talking to all the youth of the church and he says, “Do you want to be part of something big?” The greatest cause on earth, yeah, is the gathering of Israel. It’s fun to watch the prophet teach teenagers and get them excited about the gathering of Israel. And then it dawned on me, I was like, “That’s what Moroni was doing.”

  05:07 Moroni is trying to get a teenage boy excited about the fulfillment of ancient covenant promises that are going to culminate in the greatest story that’s ever been told. President Nelson just says to the youth, “This is why you were born. You can play an important part in this.” He says, “It’s why you were born.” So if you want to talk about I was chosen to be an instrument in the hands of God to bring about some of his purposes, that’s true. Not all of his purposes, but what do you feel guided to? How can you help build the kingdom of God and gather Israel in the last days in preparation for Messiah’s return? What could you do?

Hank Smith: 05:45 If you’re not feeling great about life, if you’ve got a young person who says, “I don’t know what this is all about. Who am I? What am I doing here? What’s my purpose?” Your spirit can grasp onto this idea of this is why you’re here. So every seminary teacher out there, every parent out there, you’re basically repeating this moment in Joseph’s room every day. Come on. Now, you’re going to love this. Listen to these scriptures. Then, by the way, he has to hear it how many times? He has to hear it multiple times.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 06:19 Yeah, we don’t have to go through all of the times, but Joseph says, the light gathered around him, a conduit opened up. He ascended into the conduit, which was amazing. Joseph says, I was laying there musing on the singularity of the scene, marveling at what he just said, and then bam, he comes again and he said he repeated it again, all of it, “without the least variation.” And then he added a little bit and then he added a little bit and then he left again, gathered the light conduit. And then Joseph says, “so deep were the impressions made on my mind, that sleep had fled from my eyes, and I lay overwhelmed in astonishment at what I had both seen and heard.” And then bam, he says, “But what was my surprise when again I beheld the same messenger at my bedside”, And he said the same things as before and then added another caution that Satan’s going to try to tempt me to use the plates to get rich and help my family out who’s poor.

  07:18 And then after that he says, the cock crowed. And I realized that we had just spent an all-nighter together studying the Old Testament, Joseph and the angel, but he’s a farmer and he’s got to get up and go do his chores. He goes to do his chores with his dad and his dad says, “You don’t look so good.” He said, “I don’t feel so good.” He says, “Why don’t you go back to the house and get some rest?” And he tries to hop his little fence by the apple orchard and passes out. Next thing he remembers was Moroni, lightning face looking at him and saying, Joseph, your sins are forgiven. God has a work for you. There’s a book buried in a hill nearby. There are some amazing Old Testament passages I’d now like to review with you.

  08:02 There are, warning, warning, great judgments coming. Don’t let Satan tempt you. And then he adds one more thing that says, “Now, go tell your father everything I told you.” And he goes and talks to his dad and his dad starts to weep. One account says, “And he says, go do everything the angel told you to do.” So then instead of going home to get rest, Joseph hikes two miles and up the hill near his house after having gotten no rest, hikes up to the hill, uncovers up on the north side. He says, on the west of the top, there’s a rock that I stuck a little stick underneath as a lever. Popped up, it turned out that rock was kind of a lid. I slid it over and there indeed were the plates.” He said I tried to grab them and he got shocked a couple times.

  08:49 He expressed then frustration out loud to no one in particular. “Why can’t I get the plates?” And when he did, Moroni showed up right then and said, it’s because you didn’t do what you were instructed to do. And then Joseph admits, yeah, as I was walking to the hill, I had been thinking about how my family might be able to get rich off of the plates, or at least maybe the book that will come from the plates or something, and Moroni is going to be a pretty strict taskmaster the next couple of years. As Joseph is told by Moroni, you come back here every day, always on the 22nd of September, and we’ll have a return and report. Let’s talk. We’ll see when you’re ready.

  09:25 He’s not given a clear indication it’s going to be four years. We know that it’s going to be four years. Joseph doesn’t know. He went home disappointed that year. The next year, him and his family were very hopeful in 1824 that this was going to be the year and when he came back, the whole family was disappointed. They were praying for him, and Lucy Mack Smith says, “We prayed and we fasted for him.”

  09:45 The next year, didn’t happen. The next year, didn’t happen. Finally, 1827. Finally 1827, it happens. It’s going to be four years of Joseph’s higher education, if we could call it that, with Moroni as his tutor. It’s going to be really important, really intense. And by the time he’s done with that tutelage, Moroni is going to trust him with the plates and say that you’re ready. You are ready. But give them strict warnings. Do not let these go out of your hands. When they were in my power, they were always protected. In your hands, they’re vulnerable, so you do everything that I tell you and that God has commanded you to do and they’ll be safe.

  10:23 I’m summarizing a great deal of content here, but this is where this all starts to go for Joseph.

Hank Smith: 10:29 This is wonderful. After the first visit, the tragedy of Alvin‘s death, what does that do to the family? This is a major blow. I remember one of my students, just a teenager, said, “Well, they were used to people dying, right?” I said, “No, no, no. They love their family just like you do. I promise.” It wasn’t “well, there goes another one.”

  10:52 From what you’ve read, things are going well. Listen to what is going to happen. I think Alvin, didn’t Joseph say he was excited?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 11:00 He was a big believer. Yeah. Alvin dies in November. November 15th. Joseph meets Moroni in September. It’s not a lot of time. September, October, November. Not even quite a full, what? Two months after this has happened. But yeah, Alvin had believed Joseph’s story when Joseph told the family, and Joseph even says that sometimes Alvin would tell everyone to hurry and do their chores extra quick so they could come and listen to Joseph tell more about some of the things that he learned from Moroni.

  11:30 Alvin was 25 years old. His death was devastating. He was engaged to be married. Everything was going well, and he got, I think, what we would call gallstones. That doesn’t kill him. What killed him was the family sent for a doctor at Alvin’s request. He’s like, “I don’t feel good. I think I need a doctor.” They sent for a doctor. Their family doctor was absent, and so they’ve just found some guy, Dr. Greenwood, who immediately administered a heavy dose of this stuff they called calomel, which is like a poisonous mercury powder that they used to use for medical treatment til they found out it was poisonous.

  12:04 That’s what’s going to kill Alvin. It’s going to lodge in his stomach. It’s going to take a couple days and Alvin realizes this is going to kill me. Other doctors come and try to help, but they can’t help, and Alvin seeing the writing on the wall calls his family and says, “Let me give you my last words” and very tender to walk through that. Whenever I do a tour, take a group to Alvin’s grave there in the Swift Cemetery in Palmyra, I always walk through his last words to his family members there. It’s so touching.

  12:31 The doctor that performed the autopsy on Alvin is named Dr. McIntyre. He actually used this as a teaching moment for young doctors. He said, I think pointing to the body of Alvin in front of these other young physicians, he said, “Here is one of the loveliest youth that ever trod the streets of Palmyra, destroyed, murdered by him at whose hand relief was expected, cast off from the face of the earth by a careless quack who even dared to trifle with the life of a fellow mortal.

  13:02 “Doctors,” he’s like, “you got to do better than this.” This devastates the family. In fact, to just underscore how much Alvin was a supporter of Joseph and his mission, Lucy says that they couldn’t talk about the Book of Mormon for quite some time after Alvin’s death because every time they talked about the Book of Mormon, they thought of Alvin and the memory was too painful. This is not just going to impact them for those few months, but you’ll know that for the rest of the story of the restoration in Joseph Smith’s time, Alvin’s going to play in the background.

  13:35 There’s going to be questions about Alvin. What about those who were really good people but they never got baptized in this life? What about that? One of the first people baptized for the dead in this dispensation is Alvin. One of the last names on Father Smith’s lips as he’s dying in 1840 in Nauvoo is Alvin. He said, “I see Alvin” and then he dies. And so his memory is going to not just be there as a sweet memory and is a painful memory, but also, it’s going to lead to some really important theological questions that Joseph Smith has that leads to some powerful revelations that answers really tender questions that all of us have about lost loved ones. Alvin becomes the conduit through which we’re going to learn some really powerful things about people we love who died.

Hank Smith: 14:23 Yeah, and Scott, although this isn’t something you get from reading Joseph Smith’s history knowing that this Smith family faced tragedy that is so unfair, that is… What would Elder Renlund call it? Infuriating unfairness. That is not fair, that he didn’t have to die here. They carried on and it ended up becoming beautiful. A beautiful story of Joseph seeing him in the Celestial Kingdom. I can’t imagine. It brings tears to your eyes to think of it.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 14:57 Yeah. Joseph ran home after he saw Alvin. That’s January of 1836 and the record says he ran home to tell his family. I saw Alvin.

Hank Smith: 15:07 Scott, one other, and we will get to this in later episodes, but one other major thing that happens between 1823 and 1827 is a certain young woman who comes into Joseph’s life. I think maybe Alvin’s death and meeting Emma Hale are both significant to him being able to take the plates. He grows up quite a bit.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 15:34 Yeah. In the history here, he actually, after saying Alvin died, he instantly fast-forwards two years in the story. Alvin dies in verse 56 in that same verse, which is 1823, he then says, “And in the month of October 1825,” bam, two years, “I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stowell. He talks about how Josiah Stowell had heard about a silver mine that had been opened by the Spaniards somewhere in Harmony, Susquehanna County that’s down in Pennsylvania. Previous to hiring Joseph Smith, he had been digging to try to find it, but he couldn’t. He sought out Joseph to see if he could help him find the silver and Lucy Mack Smith actually adds an important detail here. She said that the reason Josiah Stowell came to hire Joseph Smith Jr. is because “he came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.” A seer, someone who could see the unseen.

  16:35 That would be a really nice guy to have on your team if you’re looking for buried treasure. Josiah Stowell believed that he could do this. In fact, we haven’t mentioned this much, but Joseph Smith had come upon two seer stones. This is part of the culture of Joseph Smith’s time that sometimes it’s hard for us modern folk living in the Age of Enlightenment to really wrap our minds around, but while digging a well at Willard Chase’s property, Joseph had found a stone and another one was by Lake Erie. He had found another stone that he could use to see things where he said that time and space were annihilated and he could see whatever he desired to see.

  17:16 Josiah Stowell had heard of this. Not only had he heard it, he had seen Joseph use those stones and had seen that he had actually found lost stuff. In fact, there’s a little of a side story here. Josiah Stowell’s sons had felt like Joseph Smith was maybe taking advantage of their father, misreading the situation, by having Joseph come to try to help with the silver mine. They’re actually going to press charges against Joseph Smith for being a “disorderly person.” Misdemeanor charges. There’s going to actually be a trial that’s held March 1826. It’s, I think, one of the earliest, if not the earliest, court case involving Joseph Smith.

  17:54 The charge was based on New York law, which at the time forbade people from “discovering where lost goods may be found,” assuming that such activity was fraudulent. The court stenographer, this guy named William Purple, who’s a skeptic of Joseph Smith his whole life, he wrote that what Joseph said when he was brought up to the stand to justify was so interesting. He said, “I thought I should record all of this.” And then Josiah Stowell was called up after Joseph Smith’s father was called up to talk about does he really have a stone that he can see stuff and does it really work, and are you trying to fraud people out of their money by using this?

  18:30 In the court as it proceeds, they ask if Joseph has the stone and Joseph says, yeah, I have it right here in my pocket, and he pulls it out and he shows those in the court. He shows the judge and others like, here’s the stone. They said, how did you find that? Where did that come from? And he said, there was a girl in Palmyra named Sally Chase who had a seer stone herself, and I asked if I could look at her seer stone. When I looked at her seer stone, I saw this seer stone by a river next to Lake Erie. I asked permission for my parents if I could go and get it, and they said yes, and so I traveled to Lake Erie and I found it right where I had seen it in Sally Chase’s stone. I polished it off. I put it at the bottom of the hat and looked at it and I could see anything.

  19:14 I mean, the whole court’s just like jaws drop here, and then they said, we’d like to call up to the stand, Joseph Smith Sr. Joseph Smith Sr. stands up and he testifies that his son actually has a gift. He’s like, he’s not kidding. He really can see things. The incredulous judge calls Josiah Stowell to the stand. He stands up and he swears. I’ll read from the transcript. “He swore that the prisoner, Joseph Smith Jr., possessed all the power he claimed, and he declared that he could see things 50 feet below the surface of the earth as plain as the witness could see what was on the justice’s table. And described very many circumstances to confirm his words.”

  19:55 And then the judge says to Josiah Stowell incredulously, he says, “Deacon Stowell, do I understand you as swearing before God under the solemn oath that you have taken that you believe the prisoner can see by the aid of the stone 50 feet below the surface of the earth as plainly as you can see what’s on my table?” Josiah Stowell says, “Do I believe it? Do I believe it? No, it’s not a matter of belief. I positively know it to be true.”

Hank Smith: 20:25 Josiah Stowell.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 20:29 That’s like on the court record. It’s so amazing. That’s why Josiah Stowell wanted Joseph on his team because Joseph had seer stones that he could use to see unseen stuff. In Joseph’s account, he says, “After working with him for a month, I finally prevailed upon the man to stop looking for the silver mine.” He said, it’s not here, and he says it’s from this story that all the rumors have come that I was a money digger. That’s it right there.

Hank Smith: 20:54 Scott, how would you help explain that to a young person who doesn’t understand the world Joseph Smith lives in? It sounds so foreign to us, but really, I mean, how long’s the United States been a country? It’s been 30 years. George Washington just died. It’s just a totally different world.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 21:16 Yeah, I explain it like this because this is how I try to explain it to my students that there were a few people in Joseph’s community who had seer stones that they could look at and find lost stuff. One of those was a girl down the street named Sally Chase. When my students start to furl their brow, I say, “All right, so we got to pause. Don’t we? Need to talk about this.” That it’s important to know that using stones as a means of channeling divine power would not at all have been surprising or foreign to someone like Joseph Smith because Joseph had grown up in a New England subculture where many people, including his own father, believed that divine knowledge could be revealed through objects like rods or stones. They thought similar to what had been done in biblical times. We think of Aaron’s rod or Jesus spitting in dirt and then making mud and putting on someone’s eyes. Physical objects that could be used to channel God’s power.

  22:17 This belief seems to have been carried over from England where between the 16 and the 1800s, people in communities there were called scryers or seers often used stones to find hidden or lost objects to see the future. Today, this stuff only survives in fiction. Think about this, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone. Yeah, there’s a stone or people looking into glass balls, crystal balls, looking to see things and crystal balls. This is the stuff of fiction, but it traces back to when people used to earnestly believe this is true.

  22:51 There were large parts of people in Europe and even in America by this time who had rejected the belief in those kinds of enchanted practices because of the Age of Enlightenment that is now starting to come onto the scene, but there are still many in Joseph’s culture, especially in little Palmyra Village, who not only believed in such things but had witnessed their use firsthand, and Joseph Smith Jr. was one of these people. I don’t know. Is this God using means that people believe are true to have it work, but now that people don’t believe in that stuff, he doesn’t use it anymore?

  23:28 I don’t know exactly how to explain this in a way that a fully enlightened, rational mind is going to be like, “Oh, okay, that makes total sense.” In fact, here’s a funny little thought. The Age of Enlightenment was brought about in large part through the works of people like Isaac Newton, and you know what’s funny? Isaac Newton had a seer stone, man. There’s a biography of him called Isaac Newton: The Last Sorcerer. He’s right there on the dividing line between the Age of Enchantment and the Age of Enlightenment. Isaac Newton is believing in seer stones and he’s propounding super cool mathematical equations, and he’s not separating those as different. They’re both magic. The only thing that makes me think there’s any legitimacy to Joseph Smith’s use of seer stones, honestly, Hank and John, is the Book of Mormon. I’ve read that book a lot of times and it’s incredible. How do you guys explain it?

Hank Smith: 24:21 I think it’s wonderful. I do. I think it’s brilliant. The Lord uses where you are. The Lord meets you where you are and says, I can take you. A good teacher can notice where you are and come up with a series of steps to get you where they want you to be. They meet you there.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 24:40 I like that. That reminds me of how one of the Joseph Smith paper scholars, his name’s Mark Ashurst-McGee, great guy, he said, it seems what the Lord was doing with Joseph is taking a local village seer and turning him into His Seer, a lowercase village S seer, to a uppercase S Seer, the Lord’s mouthpiece. So he had these innate gifts apparently that Moroni and the Lord are going to help him refine to do God’s work, not to find lost objects anymore, but how about restore lost truths, bring back lost keys to restore lost people into God’s family? How about that?

Hank Smith: 25:22 And you can see Moroni, right, Scott, tutoring him? Come on, come on. Give it up.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 25:27 Stop hanging out with him, money digger.

Hank Smith: 25:29 Yeah, yeah. What does Paul say? When I was a child, I spoke as a child, but when I became a man,

John Bytheway: 25:37 I put away childish things. Speaking of the Age of Enlightenment, I like what Hank always refers to as, look, if you can believe in this greatest miracle, these little ones ought to be fine, and what’s that greatest miracle, Hank?

Hank Smith: 25:51 If you believe in the Resurrection of Jesus, nothing should surprise you after this. Man was dead, came back to life, never going to die again, travels apparently to and fro from the planet. You believe in that and then you think, “Well, this story’s a little farfetched.” Really? No. The Resurrection of Jesus makes every other miracle probable. Not just possible but probable. When I hear the Joseph Smith story, I think, well, that falls right in line with a resurrection story.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 26:25 Yeah, I mean, we’ve been talking today about a resurrected being in Joseph Smith’s bedroom who’s telling him about all this stuff that the resurrection has not just centered on Jesus, but as the Bible and other scripture that tells us Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection of other people. Here’s one of those other people hovering in Joseph’s bedroom. This is wild stuff.

Hank Smith: 26:49 Isn’t that funny, Scott, that we’re so used to that story that we think, oh, yeah, that’s great. A man appears, he’s floating, he’s talking to Joseph. His face is like lightning, and then we start mentioning seer stones.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:00 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Hank Smith: 27:00 Wait, what?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:00 Seer stones.

Hank Smith: 27:00 Oh, whoa, whoa.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:05 That’s a good point. Very valid point.

Hank Smith: 27:09 Scott, what do you want to do next?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:12 We need to talk about Emma.

Hank Smith: 27:13 Let’s talk about Emma.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:15 Joseph convinces Josiah Stowell to shut down the silver mine, but did Joseph find treasure as a result of his going down to Harmony to work with Josiah Stowell?

Hank Smith: 27:28 That has the Lord’s handwriting all over it, doesn’t it? He’s twist you on the very end. Hey, guess what? You actually did find something more valuable.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:38 More precious than rubies, yeah. I think we could argue he found his treasure in Harmony, Pennsylvania. Her name’s Emma. She is daughter of Isaac Hale and Elizabeth Hale. Joseph will actually board at the Hale’s house while he is working with Josiah Stowell. This is how he meets Emma by staying at her house.

  27:58 She’s a year older than Joseph. Once they started liking each other, her father was concerned, and then Joseph actually asks her dad if he can marry his daughter. I actually have Isaac Hale’s reaction right here. You ready?

Hank Smith: 28:14 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 28:16 Isaac Hale said this. This is his own record. He said, “The young Smith made several visits at my house and at length, asked my consent to marry my daughter, Emma. This, I refused and gave my reasons for so doing. Some of which were that he was a stranger and followed a business that I could not approve. He then left the place, but not long after this, he returned. While I was absent, he carried off my daughter in the State of New York where they were married without my approbation or consent.”

  28:49 Joseph mentions this in verse 58. He says, “Owing to my continuing to assert that I had seen a vision, persecution still followed me, and my wife’s father’s family were very much opposed to our being married. I was, therefore, under the necessity of taking her elsewhere; so we went and were married at the house of Squire Tarbill, in South Bainbridge, Chenango county, New York. Immediately after my marriage, I left Mr. Stoal’s, and went to my father’s, and farmed with him that season.” back up in New York.

  29:19 He admits to this. He’s like, “Yeah, we had to elope.” This turns into, as it always does with Joseph Smith, bigger than lifelike this rumor about him, and so he actually responds to questions later in 1838 in a Q&A. This is a published Q&A. It says, “Did Joe Smith not steal his wife?” To which he replied, “Ask her. She was of age. She can answer for herself.”

  29:45 Emma was later interviewed by her own son actually about her side of the story, and here’s what Emma said. She said, “I had no intention of marrying Joseph when I left home, when he came and got me. But during my visit at Mr. Stowell’s, Joseph visited me there, my folks were bitterly opposed to him. Being importuned by Joseph to marry him and aided by Mr. Stowell who urged it,” she said, “and preferring to marry him to any other man I knew, I consented.”

  30:17 Pretty romantic stuff right there. Preferring to marry him to any other man I knew, I consented. So she says, we went over to Squire Tarbill’s and were married. Yeah, just matter of fact. That’s how they meet. That’s how they fall in love. That’s how they marry. Not on good terms with Emma’s parents to begin with, and it was providential that they’d go up to New York instead of stayed down in Harmony because that’s the year 1827. That’s the time when it’s ripe to get the plates.

  30:49 Emma Smith will be there right at Joseph’s side. She’ll be actually driving the wagon. She’ll be driving the getaway vehicle at the base of the mountain when Joseph goes up and meets Moroni on September 22nd and receives the plates finally after four years of waiting. And Emma is a great support that evening and a powerful support for Joseph and a believer in the truth claims of her husband and the restoration. She’s going to be incredible through thick and thin throughout the restoration. This is where she enters the story.

Hank Smith: 31:23 We could say this church was restored through this couple. Moroni is waiting and waiting and waiting. He says, “Now, you can.” Scott, could you say Joseph Smith doesn’t become the man we love without Emma Hale?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 31:40 Oh, 100%. Yeah. She’s his everything. They’re going to have struggles in Nauvoo when Joseph starts to practice plural marriage as any couple would, I think. And sometimes she gets some flak for her reactions there, but this couple’s a powerhouse couple. She’s incredible through thick and thin, like I said, and that’s her Abrahamic test to the way it’s framed in section 132 is plural marriage. And I think it’s precisely because she loves her husband so dearly that that’s going to be such a difficult challenge, both for her and for him.

  32:17 So sometimes that has a shadow over their marriage. I feel like when people know their full story, it’s like, “Well, what about that?” But look at the whole thing. Look at their marriage as a whole. Look at her support all along the way from beginning to end, even in the midst of that turbulence. She’s remarkable.

Hank Smith: 32:33 What a great word. It’s almost a second angel in his life.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 32:36 Give her credit where credit’s due.

John Bytheway: 32:39 Just knowing how Joseph felt about her, I’m really careful what I say about Emma.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 32:44 As we should be.

John Bytheway: 32:45 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 32:47 It’s easy to bully dead people, like we said.

Hank Smith: 32:49 Scott, just in case someone’s new to the church and they’ve heard Emma Smith doesn’t stay with, what we would say, the church and move forward into Utah. If I’m new to the church, what is the church’s feeling towards Emma today?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 33:04 Today, that’s a good clarification. Today. It’s in the midst of some pretty strong difficulty. This is shortly after the death of her husband, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I’m summarizing a lot of history here, but they essentially take charge of the church. There’s some feelings of tension between Emma Smith and Brigham Young who’s the president of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time based on Brigham’s continuing to promote plural marriage among the faithful and about property, church property. Is it Joseph’s property, personal property, or is it the church’s? What should Emma get of the property after Joseph’s death and what should go to the church? And there’s some tension between her and Brigham over these things and she doesn’t want to be left a destitute widow. She wants enough to take care of her family and Brigham’s not trying to make her a destitute widow, but there’s tension.

Hank Smith: 33:58 He’s going to move West, right, Scott? He’s thinking, I’m going to go out there and these people are going to die if we don’t have resources.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 34:05 Yeah, you can make a case on both sides. He will leave Nauvoo with the Quorum of the Twelve and ask the church members to follow and about 10,000 Latter-day Saints in that initial group leave Nauvoo and go out West, upload all the pioneer stories and those things, and they come out to Utah. But there’s a group of saints who don’t go West with the Twelve, and one of those is Emma Smith. Also, we should add Joseph Smith’s mother doesn’t go either. Again, not because of bitterness or anything like that, but because in Lucy Mack Smith’s case, old age. She couldn’t handle going across the plains. And for Emma, she wanted to maybe stay back and raise her kids in Nauvoo, in the city of Joseph, and spend time there.

  34:48 My understanding is there wasn’t some big rebellious break there. She just said, “I don’t want to go West,” and so she didn’t. So there is, I’d say, a season of some potential feelings between the church and Emma Smith when the wounds are fresh and they leave and she doesn’t want to come. There is, I’d say, a season of some, even, anti-Emma rhetoric, but I hope that over time those have healed and I think so. I think we’re at a good place now. I think we can look with empathy on her condition. We can see where things were going, but at the end of her life, she’s interviewed by her sons and they ask her about her belief and her husband’s prophetic calling and in the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and she bears witness and wants it on record that she believes her husband was a true prophet of God. She believes that the Book of Mormon that came through him was divine. She says, I know it was because I know Joseph and he could not have produced a book like that.

John Bytheway: 35:46 I was there, right?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 35:48 Yeah, I was there. I wrote. She was one of the scribes for some of the first part of some manuscript of the Book of Mormon, and she is convinced to her dying breath that what happened through him was a miracle. It was a marvelous work and a wonder. She knew it as well as anybody because she was on the front lines and got to see it on the front row. I think we should be tender about Emma. I think we should be careful. Like you said, John, Joseph loves her. Joseph cares about her deeply and to his dying day, wanted to be with Emma forever. I think we could honor their memory by letting it land there.

Hank Smith: 36:27 I think so too. Scott, before we let you go, tell us about Martin Harris. John, we remember it’s almost four years ago where Scott walked us through section 18 of the Doctrine & Covenants and Martin Harris, so we’ll kind of come full circle here, Scott. You’ve told us a little bit later about Martin Harris, but tell us the beginnings of Martin Harris. Feels like he’s important.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 36:52 I think you could make an argument. Martin Harris is important to this story. Yeah. This history is so rich. He says, “in the midst of our afflictions we found a friend in a gentleman by the name of Martin Harris, who came to us and gave me fifty dollars to assist us on our journey. Mr. Harris was a resident of Palmyra township, Wayne county, in the State of New York, and a farmer of respectability.” is how he characterizes him. Their interaction actually begins a little before this.

  37:23 Joseph had worked for Martin previously, and Martin had found him a good worker. Martin’s about double Joseph’s age. He’s about 44 about this time. He said when he first learned about the plates is when Joseph had sent for him. He had specifically called for Martin Harris to come to the farm. He wondered about that. He was curious. He came to the farm and Joseph took him aside and took him out for a walk,

  37:46 Martin says, and told him that an angel had appeared to him and told him that this was God’s work and that he had told him to ask for Martin Harris to come and help him. He told Martin Harris that the angel had told him to look into the Urim and Thummim and he would see the man that would help him with this work. Joseph said, I looked in the Urim and Thummim and I saw you, Martin. At this point, Martin said, hold on now. He said, “Joseph, you must not blame me for not taking your word.” He said, if the Lord will show me that this is His work, then I’m happy to help however you want. I’ll even give you money. You can have all the money you want to help support you with this, which is true. Later on, he’s going to give some money.

  38:32 He said, “I left Mr. Smith’s house and I went home.” This is Martin speaking. “I retired to my bedroom and I prayed God to show me concerning these things, and I covenanted that if it was His work and he would show me so, I would put forth my best ability to bring it before the world.” He said, “God then showed me that it was his work and that it was designed to bring in the fullness of His gospel to the Gentiles to fulfill His word.” He said, “He showed this to me by the still small voice spoken in the soul. Then I was satisfied that it was the Lord’s work and I was under a covenant to bring it forth.”

  39:12 That’s the backstory with Martin Harris I think that’s important for us to know is that he gained an independent witness from God, that God wanted his involvement in this work and that the work was legit. With that much of a spiritual assurance, he slips Joseph the fifty bucks, heads down to Harmony and, I’d love to come and see how the work’s progressing sometime later, if that’s okay. And Joseph says, we’d love to have you.

  39:35 That sets up the story when Martin comes down and says, “How’s it going?” This is around February of the next year, and Joseph says, well, I’ve copied some of the characters off the plates, and I think what I’m seeing in the Urim and Thummim is the translation. I have no way to verify this. I don’t know if I’m getting it right. This is Joseph not having been tutored in how to translate ancient records with seer stones, and apparently Moroni didn’t leave an instruction manual, so he’s trying to figure this out. That’s when they come up with the idea together to have Martin go back East and have him take the characters with the translation underneath and show them to ancient language experts and see if they could verify that Joseph is getting it right, number one, and to see if they can help with the translation.

  40:24 Maybe Joseph can outsource it to smart people. This is where that story starts to go. This is where you get the Charles Anthon story, and I guess the part of the story we don’t often see is that Joseph is feeling insecure as a translator. At this time, he’s only 22 years old. He’s 22. All he knows is he’s got the plates and he’s got these stones and somehow he’s supposed to get them translated. Get them translated. Maybe he could outsource, maybe he could tap into other smart people that could help him. That seems to be on his mind.

  40:54 Once Martin goes and gets them verified, then Charles Anthon says, those are legit, but then tell me again the story of how he got those. And he says, yeah, an angel led him to the plates. And this is when he says, let me see that certificate, and he rips it up. Says there’s no such thing as angels in these days, but if you’ll bring me the plates, I’ll get them translated.

  41:12 By the way, years later, Charles Anthon is asked about that version of the story, which is Martin Harris’s version, and he says, that’s totally not true. That’s not what I said. I said, he’s being taken for a fool and this kid’s deceiving him and that if he continues with this guy, he’s going to lose a lot of money. Martin Harris fires back and says, that’s not even close to what he’s saying.

  41:31 So we get these two divergent stories. There’s no way you or I can tell which one actually happened, but what we can tell for sure from the historical record is the actions of Martin Harris. What we know for sure is once he came back from his interaction with Charles Anthon, he was more convinced than ever that Joseph Smith was legit and that this work was from God, and he shows it by spending time as scribe for Joseph. And then he shows it even more when it comes to funding the publication of the Book of Mormon by mortgaging his farm.

  42:05 This man is convicted that Joseph Smith is telling the truth despite challenges that will come from his wife, Lucy, who keeps pushing on him and trying to get him to stop hanging out with Joseph Smith, and despite persecution that’s coming his way. As he gets involved with this kid, he starts to lose respectability in the community. He is going to lose money. There’s going to be problems that are going to come his way and yet, to his dying day, he is convinced that this was true.

  42:32 He will become, by the way, one of the three witnesses of the plates. He will become one of those who saw the angel and heard the voice of God, bear witness that the plates were translated by the gift and power of God. He will be an immovable pillar in the Restoration in terms of his witness of the Book of Mormon. That’s the trajectory of where this is going for Martin Harris, who this man is, and how he got involved initially.

Hank Smith: 42:57 So Harris goes to Anthon and he says, he told me this was a legit thing. Anthon says later, oh no I didn’t. But we look at Martin when he leaves Anthon’s office, he’s ready to give and go. Kind of makes you lean towards Martin’s story, doesn’t it?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 43:17 I think it does. Look at Martin Harris’s actions. He was convinced after that that something real was going on here.

Hank Smith: 43:25 Maybe there’s a third person, Isaiah, who says, “Hey, I was there.”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 43:28 Yes.

Hank Smith: 43:30 I saw it.

John Bytheway: 43:32 Saw the whole thing.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 43:34 Oh man. Oh, there’s so much to talk about.

Hank Smith: 43:36 There is. It’s just unending. And John, maybe we can link over to the episode we did with Dr. Joe Spencer on 2 Nephi 27. Yeah, we can link all of these together. And you’re right, Scott, how much of the history have we gone through today? What percentage?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 43:56 There’s a lot we missed. There’s a lot we skipped over, but to be fair, Joseph skims a lot of the history here too in his account, so we’re following his lead. We’re skimming with Joseph, but yeah, there’s a lot here and I’d recommend for anyone who wants to get deeper into the history of this, Lucy Mack Smith’s early history here is awesome. Some other people who were involved in early on where Joseph Knight Sr., he records his own account of what happened here.

  44:25 Joseph stayed at his house while he was dating Emma as well. He’s just up north in Colesville, New York. I mean, yeah, Martin Harris, that interview that I was reading from where he tells his story, that’s a 1859 interview with Joel Tiffany. So if you just Google Joel Tiffany interview Martin Harris, 1859, you can read the whole thing. There’s a lot here that’s really delightful reading, and at the end of the day, I think it’s pretty testimony strengthening, honestly.

Hank Smith: 44:53 In a way we might understand how Mormon felt last year. I cannot tell you 1/100th of what I have. I would love to share more with you. Scott, knowing you, I think we could sit down honestly for days, if not weeks, and walk through these stories.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 45:17 There’s so much here. It’s hard to tell some of the stories and not the others. So today, we’re just going to have to say, hopefully, that was enjoyable. Know that there’s more here. If you want to dig deeper and definitely go over to the Joseph Smith Papers and check out the resources they have there to walk through more of the history underneath this as well.

Hank Smith: 45:38 It’s just so fun.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 45:40 It is so fun.

Hank Smith: 45:41 You talked about taking groups back. I’ve taken groups back and I think they’re shocked that I can talk the entire time. Do we have time on the bus? Oh wait, do we have time after dinner? Oh wait, everyone get up early, 5:30 in the morning. Let’s talk some more. It’s beautiful.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 45:57 Yeah, you talk all the way on the bus ride, all the way to the site, and you get off and you’re like, “Look for these things and meet me over here at this spot because I got more I need to tell you.” Yeah, and it’s just…

Hank Smith: 46:07 It’s exciting. It’s so fun.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 46:09 It’s so good.

Hank Smith: 46:10 John, you’ll remember Scott had us envisioning the Lord with Martin forehead to forehead. I know what it’s like to sacrifice for other people’s salvation. Martin, sell the farm. Oh, Scott Woodward, what a teacher telling us about Martin Harris, what a man.

John Bytheway: 46:29 Section 19 is-

Dr. Scott Woodward: 46:32 And we wouldn’t have section 19 if it wasn’t for Martin Harris. There’s another shout out. We learned some sweet things from that section, don’t we?

Hank Smith: 46:40 Amazing things.

John Bytheway: 46:41 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 46:42 I’m sure these people in the Spirit World are very busy and they’re not paying much attention to this, but I think they would be happy with what you’ve done here today, Scott. You’ve walked us through talking about these most wonderful, wonderful souls, Alvin and Martin, Emma, Joseph. Can’t thank you enough. I could listen to Scott teach, John, all day, all day. I’m sure there’s listeners out there saying, “Don’t stop, don’t stop. Where can I get the extended version?”

John Bytheway: 47:16 Better go to Church History Matters and listen to Scott some more.

Hank Smith: 47:19 Yeah. Go over to Church History Matters and he’ll give you more.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 47:23 And I love your consistent focus on relevance, relevance, relevance, like application. If this stuff doesn’t, at the end of the day, make a difference in people’s lives, then what more is this than just an academic exercise? So really appreciate your focus on helping people to see like, okay, yes, these are ancient prophecies, and yes, this is someone that lived, whatever, a hundred and something years ago, but listen, these principles can really bless your life. I was just reminded of that today, being here with you. Thank you for helping us make sense of how this actually touches down in the lives of normal, real life people like us.

Hank Smith: 47:58 These are our people, our tribe. I feel connected. Partly, Scott, I feel connected to them because I am wholeheartedly in the same work. When I play my small part that I’m working with these people, they’re my people.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 48:16 I think that’s the story, isn’t it, of the theology that we just got in Section 2 is just step back and see the whole picture of the Restoration, and Joseph will say this a couple times in his life. He’ll say that the people on the other side are working with us as we’re working here. It’s easy to lose sight of that picture. This movement is bigger than just those of us here in the land of the living. In fact, we are far outnumbered in the land of the dead to just remember that we’re a big part of something big as President Nelson said. That this requires all of our best efforts and that we were called also to bring about some of God’s purposes here, whatever that might be. But it’s great to be on the same team with you guys and to be on the team with those who’ve passed on the other side of the veil. This is great work.

Hank Smith: 49:05 It’s wonderful that the Lord can take imperfect, flawed, good human beings and do this with them. Gives me hope. We want to thank Dr. Scott Woodward for joining us today. As always, home run. Every time, Scott, every time.

  49:28 We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And as always, we’re on our fifth year, but we will never forget our founder, Steve Sorensen.

  49:41 We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to pick up this beautiful story on followHIM.