Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:15 As together we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I am here with my wise co-host John Bytheway. John, I was looking in Section 109 and the Lord says, “To seek out words of wisdom.” And to me, that’s just the words of John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:40 Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:41 Words of wisdom. Like the old owl in Winnie the Pooh, not the old owl, just the owl.

John Bytheway: 00:46 No, I think the old part you got it right there.

Hank Smith: 00:48 You are not old. You don’t count as old.

John Bytheway: 00:51 What did you say Hank?

Hank Smith: 00:55 Hey, we want to remind everybody that you can find us on social media. We would love for you to come find us on Facebook or on Instagram and make comments. We’d love to see what you have to say, especially if it’s positive. You can come to followhim.co, followhim.co, for transcripts quotes, references, all that you need.

Hank Smith: 01:18 And of course, please take the time to rate and review the podcast. That actually helps us quite a bit. John, we are on a seminal two sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, huge sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. And so we had to get someone who could live up to-

John Bytheway: 01:38 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 01:38 … those section. So tell us who’s with us today.

John Bytheway: 01:41 Yes. Thank you. Today we have Dr. Brent M. Rogers. He’s a historian and a documentary editor for the Joseph Smith Papers, and that right there tells you something. He earned a bachelor’s degree with honors in history from San Diego state, a master’s in public history from California State University, Sacramento, and a PhD with emphasis in 19th century United States History from the University of Nebraska, Lincoln. He’s been everywhere. He’s the author of, listen to this title, A Distinction Between Mormons and Americans: Mormon Indian Missionaries, Federal Indian Policy, and the Utah War-

Hank Smith: 02:21 Wow.

John Bytheway: 02:21 … which was in the Utah Historical Quarterly. And Hank, he won the Western History Associations 2015 Arrington, is that how you say that? prize for Best Article on the History of Religion in the west. And he’s also a co-editor of the Journals, Volume 3 of the Joseph Smith Papers and the Documents, Volume 3 of the Joseph Smith Papers. I just think the Joseph Smith Papers project has been amazing and so glad to have you here. Dr. Rogers, thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 02:56 Thank you. Thank you both for having me. It’s an honor. And you guys know how to put people at ease just with your calm approach. So thank you.

Hank Smith: 03:08 Dr. Rogers comes highly recommended by his peers, Dr. Harper, Dr. Dirkmaat all said that this is who we need to talk to for Sections 109 and 110. And we’ve said before, John, on the podcast that when you’re studying the Doctrine and Covenants and studying history, I don’t think you and I realized how much of a science history is, and that you need to be trained in history.

John Bytheway: 03:34 Yeah. There comes a reliability when you know people are using the tools of scholarship and you’ll hear a precision in their language when they describe things. And so that’s a real wonderful thing we’ve had on this podcast is we have people that are acquainted with those tools of scholarship and history and they’ll separate an assumption from… And those kinds of things are great to have. So this has been wonderful.

Hank Smith: 04:05 And they can be source-critical too. So Dr. Rogers, well, you’re an all-out historian, did you always want to be a historian?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 04:12 No. Actually, I can’t say that I really took a liking to the study of history until my sophomore year of college. I was actually probably one of those kids in high school that thought history was boring and had a bad attitude about it. I remember taking some road trips as a child and stopping along the way and seeing some historic markers and always thinking that that was kind of fun.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 04:41 But then getting into history when you’re in school, it seems a lot more about rote memorization and this date, and this thing happened on that particular date. And it’s just a series of chronological events. And so I can say for a certainty that I was not really into history and I had to take a US history course my second year of college and I was like, “Well, I’ll take an American history course.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 05:14 It’s one of the courses that you have to take to meet a requirement and so we’ll get it out of the way. And there was just something different about history in really studying the why’s and the motives and the decisions that were made that caused those critical events that happened in the dates get associated with.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 05:40 And so saw a little bit different dynamic to history as I studied it in college, and particularly interesting to me was the people dynamic and how people related to one another. And that was something that just seemed a little bit detached from other study that I had in high school and just going to markers. There might be a name of somebody mentioned, but getting to know more about the, I guess, ordinary people was fascinating to me.

Hank Smith: 06:17 Yeah. We’re hoping to do some of this dynamic that you’re talking about here, Brent today. Let’s jump into these sections. Sections 109 and 110 of the Doctrine and Covenants. I don’t think the importance of these two sections can be overstated in the Doctrine and Covenants, right?

Hank Smith: 06:40 This is huge. I’ve heard, I think, it was Steve Harper say before that 1836 may well be the best year of Joseph Smith’s life. So why don’t you take us as far back as you want to go and tell our listeners what they need to know to get to lead… What leads up to March 27th, 1836.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 07:04 Well, how much time do we have in the podcast? Because I think we could… I mean, really these are five years in the making at least if not, you can go… In fact, maybe I’ll go back even further at some point. But these revelations that we’re talking about today are the culmination of the first five and a half, six years of the organization of the Church.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 07:31 And then if you want to go back to when Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His son, Jesus Christ in the Sacred Grove. This is all building to these momentous days in late March and early April 1836. And so this is where Joseph learns that they would be endowed with power from on high, right? And that they were just-

Hank Smith: 07:56 That’s the amendment to move, right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 07:58 Yeah. In Ohio, that’s where they’re going to be endowed with power from on high. We could then jump forward to Doctrine and Covenants 88 is talking about establishing the house, “The house of prayer, the house of fasting, the house of faith, house of learning, house of glory, a house of order and a house of God.” And so there’s…

Dr. Brent Rogers: 08:26 We can move forward again to Section 94 that talks about laying out and preparing the foundation of the city of the stake of Zion. And he says, “Beginning at my house.” This means where we’re going to build the temple and that’s… If we were to look at a plat of the central space of the City of Zion and the City of the stake of Zion, the temple is right in the middle.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 08:57 And it’s from that space, that focal central space, that the beauty and the power of the temple was going to be a beacon and radiate out to the members of the church and be a constant reminder in their lives this is part of the pattern that the Lord is giving. And so some of the words like order and glory and prayer, and these are things that are building up to where we find ourselves in spring of 1836.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 09:31 And one other section, maybe just to hint at here to start is Section 95, which I’ve long found to be a very fascinating section, but the part that the Lord says to Joseph and the Saints that, “Ye have sinned against me a very grievous sin, in that ye have not considered the great commandment in all things that I’ve given unto you concerning the building of mine house for the preparation, wherewith I design to prepare mine apostles to prune the vineyard for the last time.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 10:06 And so there’s two things that I think are really important about that part of the revelation. One is it’s been through the winter and just a few months into 1833, and the Lord is like, “Why aren’t you guys building that house that I commanded you to build in section 88? Let’s go. It’s time to get moving on that.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 10:28 And just a few days later, Hyrum Smith writes in his journal that they start digging out the trench for the walls and they get going. I mean, they take that Section 95 revelation pretty seriously, the Saints do, and they really start… That’s when work begins in earnest on the temple in Kirtland. But the-

John Bytheway: 10:52 I remember from an earlier… Maybe when we were talking about Section 95, wasn’t Hyrum the first one to throw a shovel into the ground or something and said he wanted to be the first and…

Dr. Brent Rogers: 11:03 Yeah. And he goes and he grabs it and then immediately begins digging out those areas for the foundation. And it’s pretty remarkable to see how quickly they respond to that physical act of getting the temple going.

Hank Smith: 11:22 There’s a great lesson there for me, is sometimes we want to wait until we feel like we’ve got everything in place, right? We’re going to… “Well, let’s just wait a little bit longer and we’ll get… What about the windows? What about the roof? What about this?” And Hyrum Smith’s, “Let’s get started. Let’s get started.”

Hank Smith: 11:40 The Lord can start bringing people in, I’ve noticed that. And maybe we can talk about a little bit about this, Brent, as you prep us for 109. But it seems to me once they got started, the Lord started sending those who could do windows, who could do furniture, who could do plans, but they had to get started.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 11:58 Yeah. Acting on that command, if you will, that revelation that prompting and doing it, not maybe knowing where it’s going to go or how you’re going to get some of those things accomplished. And those ways come about because of the faith taken to get started, I think. Yeah, I think that’s a great point.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 12:20 The other point I wanted to make about that line in Section 95 is about preparation. It says, “The building of mine house for the preparation wherewith I design to prepare.” You got preparation and then prepare both in the same line of that revelation. And it’s fascinating to me to see how Joseph Smith goes about that preparation.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 12:48 And so we’ll fast forward into the fall of 1835 in the time between when they first start digging for the foundation walls and June of 1833 until the fall of 1835, quite a lot happens. You have Zion’s Camp, that expedition happens, and of course that’s tied to the temple as well. If you’re reading in Section 105, where it says that this isn’t going to happen, meaning the taking back of Zion.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 13:29 But the elders needed first to be prepared and taught more perfectly and obtain that long promised endowment of power in the Kirtland Temple. And so when they get back from Zion’s Camp, they go all in on finishing the physical construction of the temple and what Lucy Mack Smith writes about that timeframe from 1835 through early 1836, she says, “There was but one main spring to all of our thoughts,” and she’s talking about the Church members, the Saints.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 13:58 And she goes, “And that was building the Lord’s house.” And I think if we were to look at a lot of the sources of that time period, you would see that she’s exactly right. That the main spring to the thoughts of the Saints is, “We need to finish building the Lord’s house.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 14:15 So physical construction is one thing and then spiritual preparation is another. And that’s, coming back to Section 95, where the Lord says that He’s going to prepare his apostles to prune the vineyard. There’s a lot that happens with Joseph Smith’s direction that he takes with his teaching and counsel in late 1835 and into 1836, he really emphasizes spiritual preparation. He focuses on themes like unity and humility.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 14:49 There had been some disunity in the Quorum of the Twelve and also between members of the Twelve and the First Presidency. This stems from the first mission as a quorum for the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. There had been some reports that were sent back to Kirtland that had some suggestions that the Twelve weren’t maybe doing what they were supposed to be doing and there were letters written back from Kirtland to the Twelve that took those rumors or reports at face value. And there was upset feelings on both sides.

Hank Smith: 15:34 Now, they weren’t far away, right, Brent? This was like an Eastern States mission, is that…

Dr. Brent Rogers: 15:39 Correct. Yeah. In a lot of what I’m thinking about it happened in New York, close to where the Church was organized in upstate New York in Palmyra area, but they go to Maine and Massachusetts on that mission. And so part of the issue is the delay in communication that happens with letter writing in the 19th century.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 16:07 And so without a quick ability to send a text and say, “Hey, I think we got our lines crossed,” or to get on a video chat and clear the air, this just festered for the remainder of the mission for the Twelve and then they returned in September. And there’s some pretty hurt feelings among Members of the Twelve and between the Twelve and the First Presidency.

Hank Smith: 16:35 So they get called in February, leave on this mission in May come back in September and there has been some hurt feeling.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 16:39 And there has been some hurt feelings that happened. And there’s an effort made when they first return to try to clear the air and it seems to have helped briefly. It doesn’t last as what happens sometimes with humans, right? We hold onto some feelings and we’re not totally ready.

Hank Smith: 17:08 I’m just going to say, Brent, I’m happy that this never happens in the Church today. That there’s no hurt feelings and words and things fester and-

John Bytheway: 17:16 We’ve got it all figured out.

Hank Smith: 17:17 Yeah. I’m glad that that doesn’t happen today.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 17:20 It definitely happens, and that’s okay. I think the lesson maybe to learn as I keep talking through this is that if the forgiveness doesn’t happen right away, that’s all right. You still got to work through it. So Joseph holds a meeting in October of 1835, and he tells the Twelve Apostles that they must prepare their hearts in all humility if they’re going to receive the endowment of power from on high. And so again, you have that preparation is this real key word that keeps coming up to get us to the temple.

Hank Smith: 18:03 I like how you’re doing this. We’ve got the physical temple being built, it’s being prepared, but the spiritual, the people are also being built.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 18:14 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 18:15 Right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 18:15 Yeah. And they need to be just as ready as the plaster on the outside of the temple walls and those kinds of things, right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 18:26 So the instruction continues in November where Joseph gives a discourse that he really is urging repentance and humility and preparation. He says, “We must have all things prepared and call our solemn assembly as the Lord has commanded us, that we may be able to accomplish this great work and it must be done in God’s own way. The house of the Lord must be prepared and the solemn assembly called and organized in it according to the order of the house of God.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 18:58 And he says, “And in it,” meaning in the house of God, “we must attend to the ordinance of washing the feet.” So, he’s preparing them for that ordinance. And then he says, “This is calculated to unite our hearts, that we may be one in feeling and sentiment, and that our faith may be strong so that Satan cannot overthrow us nor have any power over us.” And so he then…

Dr. Brent Rogers: 19:22 I don’t know if this is the conclusion, but part of his continuing words on that November day was, “All who are prepared and are sufficiently prepared to abide the presence of the Savior will see him in the solemn assembly to be held in the temple.” And so I think that it’s a strong teaching. It’s specific, telling the Twelve, but also if we want to say that he’s teaching all of us that we need to be united, we need to have unity.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 19:56 And I think that has continuing relevance for us today. We need to have our hearts clean and be prepared so that Satan won’t have power over us and instead we’ll be able to feel the presence of the savior manifest himself. And that’s particularly strong in the temple, if we’re able to go there with clean hearts and to be prepared spiritually.

Hank Smith: 20:25 The idea is that everyone has to look at themselves, right? And that’s not easy to do sometimes. I’d rather clean someone else’s heart than my own.

John Bytheway: 20:38 Do you know what I love about this two, is, I mean, there’s an expectation that he just created. It’s almost like another one of his prophecies, because as we’re going to find out, at the dedication there were… People saw amazing things and he was right, if you are prepared you may see some incredible things. And I’m just thinking, “Wow, that’s a prophecy in a way.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 21:09 Yeah. And the idea of unity being so essential to being ready to be able to see the Savior, to be able to feel of his presence, reminds me a lot of Sister Eubank’s talk that she gave, I think that was in 2020. It was one of my favorite talks from recent conferences where she talks about the need to create unity and to have mercy and to see differences, to be able to turn those to advantages and that unity takes work and that it sometimes can be uncomfortable.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 21:50 And I think that’s kind of what Joseph was telling the members of the Twelve. And if we want to extrapolate to us as well, is that this is work. It doesn’t just hear, “Hey, have unity with everybody,” and all of a sudden, “Hey, yep, I’m unified. Let’s go.” It takes work.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 22:09 And I think what being unified or having unity means is feeling unified in Christ, and through his teachings he gives us the blueprint of how we become more unified and more kind and more loving as people. And Hank, to your point how we can look inward to clean ourselves up, he gives us that just as much as he does how to do that with other people.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 22:45 So I think that there’s a real importance to thinking about spiritual preparation and unity as we think about this Section 109. It’s not necessarily… If you were just to read the section, you wouldn’t maybe see that just in reading the verses, but knowing some of the background and some of the efforts that it took to get there, you can see how preparation and unity, spiritual preparation and being unified, is essential to the dedication of the temple.

John Bytheway: 23:26 It’s the definition of Zion, right? The one heart, one mind thing. It’s all the same.

Hank Smith: 23:31 I wonder if having this project, this building helps that. You would hope that as they’re doing this together, that they’re becoming… I would think that they’re becoming closer friends, they’re talking more, they’re communicating. But I just don’t know which one was harder, building the temple, which is incredible, right? And we can talk a little bit about that, Brent, the actual construction or becoming unified. I don’t know which one is going to be more difficult, just because they’re both tremendous projects.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 24:08 Well, yeah. Let’s see if we can sort through that a little bit because the physical construction of the temple was a huge challenge from getting the supplies to getting the right people, which we already alluded to, to having enough people and resources to get it constructed. And it took the sacrifice of a lot of people’s time, money, the cliché; blood, sweat, and tears, right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 24:46 It took so much to just get that physical building done. I think that maybe if we’re thinking about this from our present day lens, we think we hear our beloved prophet talk about the building of several temples every time a conference is announced and it just seems like it’s kind of a everyday thing now. We have the means and we’re just going to build new temples all over the world.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 25:19 And it’s fantastic that we’re in a position as a Church and an organization to be able to do that. We got to look back on those early saints and know that, one, they had barely enough means to stay alive. They don’t have any of these modern conveniences of, “We’ll just create an extra shipment of lumber this time around and we’ll be okay.” There isn’t that same ability to get materials, first of all, and to have financial means.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 25:56 The early Saints give every scrap of extra money or materials that they have to help do this. And so going back to Lucy Mack Smith’s quote about, there was one main spring to all of our thoughts, and that was building the Lord’s house. It’s not just in their thoughts, and we’re going to go out and give the effort to do it.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 26:19 We’re going to find ways to donate any means that we have. The several sisters are finding fabric to knit together or sew together, so that the veils are properly done inside the temple and the curtains are properly done inside the temple, to get the wood to build all the pews that they had to build, let alone the outside edifice.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 26:47 I mean, they’re scrapping together what they can, and they end up creating this beautiful structure. And so that physical construction is demanding and it’s a major sacrifice. But I would say, I think the spiritual is just is, if not harder. And I would say for us today, the spiritual is significantly harder.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 27:11 We have means to build and to do physical work in a way that I think at least from my observations when the ox is in the mire, there’s people that are going to come running and they’re going to help. Up in where I live in Farmington, we’ve had some wind storms and some weather issues that have created some need for people to get out with some chainsaws and cut down some fallen trees and we have so many people that will come out and help with that.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 27:48 And it’s that project, having that project allows them to come out and they see there’s a real need. Sometimes I don’t know if we see that same need, if there’s a leak in our spiritual dam or something like that, we kind of find ways just to paper it a little bit and then move on as the dam might crack a little bit more and more.

Hank Smith: 28:16 Yeah. A grudge is festering, right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 28:18 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 28:19 I don’t know if we notice that as much. This is fascinating stuff. I mean, I’ve been to the Kirtland Temple many times and you’re right. If you view it in 2021 standards, you’re going, “Oh, it’s a nice building, right? That’s great.” But if you think of it for 1836, this had to be the biggest building within hundreds of miles.

John Bytheway: 28:43 Yeah. It was.

Hank Smith: 28:43 They were thinking a log cabin at first, and Joseph said, “No”

John Bytheway: 28:47 Joseph said, “You’re going to build a house to the Lord out of logs?”

Hank Smith: 28:52 We’re going to build something else. And the fact that they did it is incredible, physically incredible. But the fact that they were able to come together as a group and unified, it’s also equally incredible.

John Bytheway: 29:07 But I’m glad you’re pointing this out, Brent. This is good stuff, thinking about just ordinary people that may have been of a number of different occupations or farmers, because today when President Nelson might announce we’re building more temples, I don’t physically go there. It’s contracted through the tithes or whatever.

John Bytheway: 29:29 But boy, back then it was like, “Whoever you are just come and start working and whatever skills you have or don’t have, we need you.” I think it’s a really good point that now the spiritual preparation is probably harder, because we’re not expected to go start cutting logs or hewing stone out of the quarry like they were back then. Good point.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 29:52 I was living in the Sacramento area when they were finishing construction on the Sacramento Temple and there was an opportunity to help with some landscaping. And that was an awesome thing, and I’m not trying to discount that, but that was what was an opportunity or available for members of the church in the area to contribute to the temple.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 30:17 It’s pretty small when you think about the other work that it might take. But I mean, it was a fulfilling couple of hours to be able to help with some of the landscaping, but that was all that we could do. And so it just shows the difference in what the physical energy and sacrifice that the early saints had to make.

Hank Smith: 30:44 Yeah. I can imagine those Kirtland saints, “Oh, you helped with the grass, did you?” Like, “Yeah. Yeah, I helped with the grass.” “Oh, I actually built the stairs,” right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 30:54 Right.

Hank Smith: 30:55 John, if we showed up at the temple site today, they’d say, “Get away from here. You’re going to-“

John Bytheway: 30:59 You’re going to mess it up.

Hank Smith: 31:01 Yeah. You’re going to mess it up.

John Bytheway: 31:01 You’re not building it to code.

Hank Smith: 31:03 Yeah. And the fact that the Kirtland Temple is still standing is pretty incredible, pretty incredible miracle.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 31:11 Right. it’s still there. I mean, it’s been almost 200 years and it is still there. That’s a testament to them. It shows that excellent workmanship that was done to construct that building for sure.

Hank Smith: 31:26 Right.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 31:27 And then efforts of people along the way to make sure that it was kept up, and so we need to acknowledge that as well.

John Bytheway: 31:34 I think Sidney Rigdon, two and a half hours… And we all know Sidney eventually fell away, but I just don’t know how well any of us would do had we been dragged by our heels with our heads smacking against the cold ground, right? But I read something I had never heard before about Sidney Rigdon.

John Bytheway: 31:59 Listen to this. Heber C. Kimball said, “He, Sidney Rigdon frequently used to go upon the walls of the building both by day and night and frequently wetting the walls with his tears, crying aloud to the almighty to send means whereby we might accomplish the building.” I just love hearing that about Sydney, that he was that invested that he was weeping next to the walls of that partway constructed temple, asking for help to finish it. That’s pretty cool. Have you heard that before?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 32:35 I hadn’t. No. That’s wonderful.

John Bytheway: 32:37 That is Times and Seasons VI, April 15th, 1845 That’s in Karl Anderson’s book, The Savior in Kirtland. I loved hearing that because I don’t want just to only remember about Sidney, that he eventually left.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 32:59 The First Presidency and members of the Twelve have a meeting where they bring everybody together and Oliver Cowdery is there as well. There’s this meeting that’s held in middle of January of 1836, it’s January 16th. Because there is still these lingering hard feelings. Joseph and his brother William, who’s a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, had had a pretty nasty fist fight that left Joseph unable to even sit up in his bed for a couple of days because he’d been beaten so badly by his brother. And so there’s still some-

Hank Smith: 33:39 This is going to make mother of sons feel a whole lot better when they hear that Joseph Smith and his little brother William got into a pretty big fist fight.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 33:49 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 33:49 This is-

Dr. Brent Rogers: 33:52 We could get into that if you want. I mean it’s kind of an aside, but there was a verbal disagreement that led to a physical altercation and William apparently beat him pretty good.

Hank Smith: 34:05 Yeah, the idea was Joseph couldn’t get his coat off, had his arm caught or something, right? And…

Dr. Brent Rogers: 34:10 Yeah, that’s what he said. If they’re anything like my kids and you observe the whole fight, sometimes the one that comes out on the end where maybe they didn’t do so well, they have some excuses.

Hank Smith: 34:23 Yeah. This is-

Dr. Brent Rogers: 34:23 But no, I’m not trying to besmirch Joseph’s character or anything, but-

Hank Smith: 34:27 Yeah, I know. This is maybe something that we… I like talking about this actually, Brent, because William isn’t mentioned all that often. We talk about Hyrum and Joseph, we talk about Samuel, we talk about Alvin, but we don’t mention William all that often.

Hank Smith: 34:41 And it’s because he was difficult. He was a difficult member of the family. And I think for families out there, they might go, “Oh,” right? All families may have some difficulty and the prophet and a Member of the Twelve got in a fist fight.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 35:01 Yeah. William, there is other people that know a lot more about William Smith, but I would say that I think that he was very human and he went with his feelings and passion, and in some cases went pretty hard with them, and I think that that’s okay. He had a good heart and his relationship with his brothers was generally pretty good.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 35:34 Although, as is the case with a lot of families, you have times when the emotions run high and this was one of those times and it was hard on the family and there was some reconciliation that was needed. But it might just be a point to say it’s a bit symbolic of… There’s this underlying tension. And if we want to take them outside of their roles as brothers and say there’s still an underlying tension between members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, it’s still there.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 36:10 And so they have this meeting in January to air the grievances and everybody who wants to speak gets a chance to speak. And there’s some pretty passionate talk that’s made. And after all of the Members of the Twelve speak, Joseph, he acknowledges that he may have expressed some too harsh language at times, and he asks for forgiveness for hurting their feelings.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 36:36 And it’s interesting if you read the minutes of that meeting. That’s all it took, was his acknowledgement of the wrong and his sincere desire to seek forgiveness and to forgive on his part. And that’s something that, as I’ve studied Joseph Smith’s life, I mean his ability and desire to forgive and extend forgiveness is quite remarkable to me. And so the-

Hank Smith: 37:13 It sounds like a big, let’s air out… Let’s talk about it, right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 37:22 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 37:23 Which is… Wow. It takes… That’s a lot of courage and for the president of the Church to apologize and say, “You know what? I’m sorry.” And I like how you said this, that that’s what it took and they… That’s a tribute to all of these men, that they were able to forgive, right? and move forward.

John Bytheway: 37:42 Kind of see a bigger picture about keeping the temple and its blessings in their sights. We talked, I mean, just the impression ever since Section 88 and in those 90 sections, just how anxious the Lord was. The sections in some of the 90 sections, 95 – 

John Bytheway: 38:03 about would you just build the temple? The Lord just seems so anxious to give them the temple blessings. It’s just a feeling that you get. And so it’s good that they… We’ve got to do what it takes including forgiving and getting unified to get in a position where we get this done, not only the temple, but ourselves prepared for the temple.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 38:26 Yeah. And they exchanged some promises to each other and expressed confidence in one another. There really seems to be a feeling of unity in Christ and focusing on that bigger picture that you alluded to John. And I mean, the minutes of the meeting say that there was a perfect unison of feeling on this occasion and our hearts overflowed, and that’s how it ends.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 38:52 And then why I think that that’s such an important moment in getting us to the temple dedication is the things that happen as a result of that. Is just a week or days, I can’t remember the exact timeframe, about five days later that they’re in the temple and doing the ritual washing and anointing for the first time, right? Doing the ordinance of washing and anointing in the manner that was shown by Moses, right? who did that ordinance in ancient days.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 39:35 And that after Joseph gets this ordinance done, he is being blessed by his father and other Church leaders are there. And this is when Section 137 is revealed as the vision of the Celestial Kingdom, the individuals that would dwell there in.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 39:56 And so I know this is not for our time here, but that happens in the temple as they’ve become unified in their feelings with one another and they are in a place of spiritual preparation. So in the chronology of events, it happens before the dedication of the temple. But we read it as Section 137, which is down the road a little bit.

Hank Smith: 40:27 Right. Yeah, you said this meeting was January 16th and here it is January 21st, 1836. I didn’t know that it was just after this big reconciliation that this vision opens up. That’s beautiful.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 40:46 And of course, I mean, we all appreciate what is taught in this about… Especially as it pertained to Joseph Smith’s family with Alvin and all who have died without a knowledge of the gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to remain on the earth would be heirs in the Celestial Kingdom. That’s beautiful. That’s something that answers a lot of questions for us.

John Bytheway: 41:17 It’s like theological dynamite. That’s amazing-

Dr. Brent Rogers: 41:20 Right.

John Bytheway: 41:21 … to have the Lord knows how to judge hearts and knows who would have received it. And so 137 was given before 109 and 110, what we’re studying today. And it was after a meeting where they got that feeling of unity. There was some forgiveness, some promises made to each other and that’s when that revelation came. That’s great.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 41:49 Yeah. And no, I can’t say that that’s the cause and effect, but the timing of it-

John Bytheway: 41:55 But it was after that.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 41:56 Yeah. It comes after that. I think that there’s something to that as Joseph is continually teaching about preparation and unity and humility, and that after they have that airing of grievances, that they’re there. And that I think that it shows that they really are there and they really are in that place of spiritual preparation. And that this is when the vision of the Celestial Kingdom is shown to Joseph.

John Bytheway: 42:29 What’s interesting about all of this is, I’m sure this experience has happened with both of you, but having been to dozens of youth conferences, I can remember more than once having just very fine testimony meetings and for kids getting up and really a Zion feeling kind of coming and kids saying to each other, “If I’ve ever offended you, if I’ve ever offended anybody here, I’m sorry,” because there was such a wonderful spirit there, and that…

John Bytheway: 43:00 I’ve always thought of that as a Zion feeling, one heart, one mind, and while even in your own ward you go through ups and downs with people, but there’s this feeling of, “I just want a clean slate with all of you. If I’ve ever offended anyone, I’m sorry.” And that proceeds… I love that idea. I wish we’d have those kind of Zion moments more often.

Hank Smith: 43:25 That’s what the influence of the spirit… It’s what it does to you. And I personally, and Brent, you can’t say that obviously there’s cause and effect here, but I love that William and Joseph have this falling out, they reconcile. And then there’s Alvin, right? in the vision. Almost as if the family was able to connect with him through the reconciliation with each other. I think that’s a beautiful idea.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 43:54 Yeah. I like that as well. I never thought about it like that and that makes… It gives me the feels. I like that.

Hank Smith: 44:01 Yeah. One of the moments of-

John Bytheway: 44:04 Think of the word of, somebody pointed this out the other day, family reunion. We’re a union, unity. It’s a… We’re reuniting for the family reunion and that was a little reunion there. To see their brother there must have been so huge for them. And I suppose just an understanding of, well, I guess if you didn’t get baptized in this life, sorry, but there he was. Yeah.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 44:35 Yeah. The evening before the dedication, March 26th, Joseph and Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Warren Parrish, and I think Oliver Cowdery’s brother, Warren Cowdery is there as well. They meet in the attic floor of the temple in what was called the President’s Room to prepare for the dedicatory event.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 45:00 And while there’s not a whole lot known about that preparation outside of the fact that Joseph says that the prayer was revealed to him, Oliver Cowdery wrote in his diary that at the meeting, he assisted in writing the prayer for the dedication of the house. And so what that means exactly, I don’t know if he acted as scribe and wrote it as Joseph spoke, that is a possibility, but it’s an interesting phrasing of… Says, “Assisted in writing prayer for the dedication of the house.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 45:38 But it’s a revealed, inspired prayer, and the men in that room decided that they wanted to have it printed. And so they put together all the type and get printed off a broad side, a big sheet of paper, so that Joseph has a nice printed sheet to read the prayer from the next day. And so there’s a lot of work to do, and-

John Bytheway: 46:06 -yeah. I mean, are you talking setting type, that kind of printing?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 46:11 That kind of printing?

John Bytheway: 46:12 Wow.

Hank Smith: 46:13 Wow.

John Bytheway: 46:14 This is a long section too.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 46:16 It’s quite long

John Bytheway: 46:17 Minding your Ps and Qs and all that stuff and setting type, this is a lot of work.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 46:23 So that was a lot of work for them to do that. And then, obviously the next morning is the Sunday morning, March 27th. And the saints are so excited about this event and they rush to the temple before the doors even open. And there are throngs there that are waiting to get in. There are some that go to a secondary location that I guess they were still able to hear.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 46:54 And then others, I mean, there was such interest in it that they actually decided later to hold a second dedicatory event so that people could hear the prayer read out loud again, but it wasn’t just the prayer that happened, but there’s… Sidney Rigdon starts the meeting at 9:00 in the morning, gives some preliminary remarks and then there’s a hymn and then Rigdon, he holds forth for two and a half hours.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 47:28 I mean, he just goes, just keeps talking, just keeps talking.

John Bytheway: 47:32 From the Saints book, I just loved this kind of personal… of Lydia Knight. This is on page 235 of Saints, Volume 1. From her seat, Lydia could watch Church leaders take their places behind the three rows of ornately carved pulpits at both ends of the room. In front of her, on the west end of the building, were pulpits for the First Presidency and other leaders in the Melchizedek Priesthood.

John Bytheway: 47:56 Behind her, along the east wall, were pulpits for the bishoprics and Aaronic Priesthood leaders. As a member of the Missouri High Council, Newel sat in a row of box seats beside these pulpits. As she waited for the dedication to begin, Lydia could also admire the beautiful woodwork along the pulpits and the row of tall columns that ran the length of the room.

John Bytheway: 48:14 It was still early in the morning, and sunlight poured into the court through the tall windows along the side walls. Overhead hung large canvas curtains, which could be rolled down between the pews to divide the space into temporary rooms. When the ushers could squeeze no one else into the room, Joseph stood and apologized to those who were unable to find a place to sit. He suggested holding an overflow meeting in the nearby schoolroom and the first floor of the print shop.

John Bytheway: 48:41 A few minutes later, after the congregation settled into their seats, Sidney opened the service and spoke with great force for more than two hours. After a brief intermission, during which almost everyone in the congregation stayed seated-

Dr. Brent Rogers: 48:53 Oh, that’s wonderful.

John Bytheway: 48:54 … Joseph stood and offered the dedicatory prayer, which he had prepared with the help of Oliver and Sidney the day before. As you were saying, Brent, they have been looking forward to this. This has been a lot of time, a lot of sacrifice. Now, here’s the question I have. Okay, we’re going to hold an overflow. Okay. What are they going to do? Pipe sound over there? Are they going to run notes like King Benjamin’s speeches? How are they going to do that?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 49:19 I don’t know. There are no records that I’ve seen that speak to how that was to be held. I don’t know.

John Bytheway: 49:27 Yeah. How did you do an overflow back then?

Hank Smith: 49:32 Someone’s writing it down and someone’s pretending to be Joseph Smith in the overflow. And just five minutes later he’s reading what was written. I don’t know.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 49:41 One thing that we can try to do more is encourage and share the voices of the sisters that we don’t always get to hear. This is an aside story, but I had one of my colleagues tell me that I had to share this, and I agree. It’s a good story. And I think it starts with the importance that the saints placed on attending the dedicatory event and wanting to be there for the dedication.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 50:11 So the story goes, and this is according to writings from two Latter-day Saints, one’s name Benjamin Brown and then the other is one that I’m sure our listeners probably know a little bit better, but her name is Eliza R. Snow.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 50:27 They both write these accounts that talk about an unnamed woman. They don’t mention a name. But at least the Benjamin Brown writing of this is just days, maybe weeks after the dedication and there’s corroborating stories suggested that something along these lines happen, right? But this unnamed woman could not find anyone to leave her two-month-old child with.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 50:57 She really wanted to attend the dedication, but everybody that she knew that would watch the child was also going to the dedication. And so there were temple rules that had been created that prohibited children from assembling in the temple in times of worship. And so as there was nobody that she either could or felt comfortable with leaving her child with, she takes this two month old to the temple that morning.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 51:25 And some of the door keepers that were there turned her away citing the rules. But Joseph Smith, Sr. was apparently also one of the door keepers, and she approached him and implored him and said, “Please.” I mean, I’m filling in the words here, but she said something like, “Please, I want to be here. Let me… My baby will… I’ll take care of the baby. There won’t be a distraction.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 51:50 And she asked them to allow her and her baby to enter the house of the Lord. And so Joseph Smith, Sr. reportedly said to the door keepers that were at this particular door, I quote, “Brethren, we do not exercise faith. My faith is this child will not cry a word in the house today.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 52:12 And according to Benjamin Brown’s account of summarizing what happened next, he wrote that after this declaration by Joseph Smith Sr., the woman and her child were admitted and the child did not cry. This is Benjamin Brown’s writings, he said, “The child did not cry a word from 8:00 till 4:00 in the afternoon.” This is the part that my colleagues-

John Bytheway: 52:41 Eight hours?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 52:41 … and I especially find fascinating, we’ll say. When the Saints all shouted Hosanna, the child was nursing, but let go and shouted. Also, when the Saints paused, it paused, when they shouted it shouted. For three times when they shouted amen, it shouted also for three times, then it resumed its nursing without any alarm. And so it was kind of like, I mean, a miracle.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 53:12 I like this story for a lot of reasons and mostly, I think it’s the demonstration of the faith, both on the part of the woman who felt so strongly to attend the dedication and Joseph Smith, Sr. who said, “Hey, let’s exercise faith,” and he has the faith that the child would not cry a word. And according to this account, the child only made a noise during the Hosanna Shout.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 53:42 And that’s a pretty incredible story. And really just speaks to the priority that that woman placed on attending the dedication and the spirit that she would feel there and just faith. And anyway, I just like that story.

Hank Smith: 54:00 It’s a great story. Yeah. We don’t expect any mother who’s listening to have perfectly quiet children in Church.

John Bytheway: 54:06 I know. I’m going, “I should have had a lot more faith in a-

Hank Smith: 54:09 Yeah. I should have had a lot more faith.

John Bytheway: 54:10 … couple 100 sacrament meetings, because my kids couldn’t go 40 minutes, not four hours.

Hank Smith: 54:14 Well, I used to pinch them to make them cry so I could go out with them.

John Bytheway: 54:18 I used to go, we called it the branch in the foyer. I’d be out there with three or four of the other elders circling in strollers.

Hank Smith: 54:27 The dad dance, the bouncing, the dad dance.

John Bytheway: 54:29 Yeah.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 54:30 Fortunately we don’t have those… We’ve lightened up the rules in times of worship. Having children around is a good thing in times of worship now. It’s true.

John Bytheway: 54:44 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.