John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:00:07 I’ve heard it said and I don’t know if it’s true, and it’s okay if it’s not that the temple itself was actually pretty colorful in that it had a tint of blue on the outside maybe and a dark red roof like an orange red roof, which I think would be pretty fun to see a colorful temple.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:00:29 Yeah. I mean, I think that just speaks to the materials that were available and what they could use. I mean, I think in some renderings and things like that, it’s presented as white and I think that it definitely had more of a bluish gray hue to the walls. Yeah. The color is a neat thing. Now, we have a lot of temples that are built in more stones or in colors that are more native to the area. The one that comes to mind is the Newport Beach temple that’s that beautiful reddish color.

Hank Smith: 00:01:11 Yeah. Really, I like that idea just people often see pictures of current temple today and it’s white, but you had the olive green doors, the blue exterior and the red roof. I just think that the-

John Bytheway: 00:01:25 The doors are green again, but they’ve painted those, right? Brent, this is just great to frame the anticipation for this event and everything, but we do have to get out before the Sabbath. So why don’t we go in and look at some of the text of the prayer itself?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:01:46 There’s a lot we can jump in to here. Maybe I’ll start with a few things that jump out at me and then we can go from there, but I think that it’s a beautiful text. There’s a lot in it, and there’s a lot about the gospel that I think is wonderful. I mean, just starting in verse one that God is a God who keeps his covenant and shows mercy to his people. I think the idea of the God of mercy shows up again at least once, but that we know who God is and we know that he is firm and that he is going to keep his end of the bargain and he’s going to have mercy on us. I think that’s always a comforting thing to know and to remember and to be reminded of, and that there will be a fulfillment of the promises that have been made to us as people. That’s in verse 11. Again, that’s because we know that God is a God of his word and keeps his promises.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:03:07 There’s a lot in this that refers to, I think, earlier sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. There’s some repetition, if you will, of the description of the house of the Lord in Section 88 that we see.

Hank Smith: 00:03:23 It’s almost like he’s quoting it in verse six, “And as thou hast said, in a revelation given unto us, calling us thy friends, saying– Call your solemn assembly.” It seems like he almost goes into a direct quote of Section 88 therefore a few verses, right?

John Bytheway: 00:03:36 Yeah, verse seven, verse eight, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:03:39 Yeah. This is section 88:117, 118, 119, 120. That section right there he quotes word for word almost, I think.

John Bytheway: 00:03:50 It’s like, “Okay. We did what you said.”

Hank Smith: 00:03:53 Yeah. “Remember how you told us this exact thing? We did that.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:03:56 Yeah, and I think that shows order. It shows order of the way that heaven wants things to work, that we’re given these commandments. We’ve given inspiration, and we’re expected to follow that, and to be obedient to it. It’s a good thing to show when we have done that.

Hank Smith: 00:04:19 So you say in verse 11 we have, “A fulfillment of the promises which thou has made.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:04:24 I just like that idea of, again, a reminder to the people that God is one who keeps his end of the bargain and it’s up to us to keep ours when we make covenants. In verse 20, there’s a setting of expectations about the temple. It says that, “No unclean thing shall be permitted to come into thy house to pollute it.” That’s still an expectation for us today, and that this prayer of dedication sets forth that expectation with the first temple. I think that that’s really good.

John Bytheway: 00:05:06 I remember I think it was in Section 95 that I made a note. Here’s the beginnings perhaps of the idea of a temple recommend where the leaders have to somehow try to honor that idea that no unclean thing could come in. That’s interesting. I don’t know where the Lord ever spells it out, “Do this,” but don’t you think that’s the beginning of that idea? We’ve got to somehow ensure that no unclean thing comes in here. I always loved that the last question in the interview is, “Do you consider yourself worthy?”

Hank Smith: 00:05:45 Yeah, and I think also it doesn’t do us a service to people. Say I was unworthy to enter the temple. It’s not a service to me to let me in at that point, right? I need to prepare myself spiritually.

John Bytheway: 00:05:58 As we’ve talked about, you prepare yourself and you build, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:06:01 Yeah. I want to be a disciplined disciple, right? I mean, those are the same words. So there’s some discipline that goes into before you can enter into the Lord’s house. So I know if anybody might say, “Well, I don’t think that that’s good for the Lord.” It’s good for the Lord to require some things of us. He does that often.

John Bytheway: 00:06:25 He raises the bar for us and if we meet it, we’re blessed in our strivings. He helps us do that and tells us how to repent, how to be changed, and he’s the one who does it. I mean, yeah, it’s an invitation.

Hank Smith: 00:06:40 If I can’t pass a temple recommend interview feeling good about it, I don’t know if I understand how to … It says in verse 21, “Reverence thee in thy house.” To me, that’s part of reverencing thee in thy house is the idea of doing what is required.

John Bytheway: 00:07:01 Look at the word revere in reverence, “I revere thee.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:07:05 I think that speaks exactly the long history that we talked about with preparing and it’s that spiritual preparation that was important to get to this point for the Saints in 1836 and it’s what’s important for us today to be really ready to go into the temple so that we can feel of the Savior and as it says there, reverence him in his own house, and that’s the way that we do.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:07:38 I think that coming back to verse 21 where we’re at right, it uses that word or the phrase speedily repent, and the word repent or repentance shows up in this section I think a handful of times and I think that speaks a lot to just the gospel of repentance and why repenting is so important.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:08:07 I think you see it in verse 53. It says, “Inasmuch as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful and will turn away thy wrath and now look us upon the face of thine Anointed.” It’s saying, “Hey, it’s pretty easy if we really think about it.” If we really, really want to be in the presence of the Lord and of our Heavenly Parents, repentance is key.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:08:34 I think that part of what we learn in the scriptures about repentance helps that we must repent. I think Alma says this in Alma 7, “We must repent and be born again, for the spirit sayeth if ye are not born again you cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.” So as we talk about why repentance is important and how Christ’s Atonement and him being the Anointed One to be our Advocate and to be the Mediator, it’s so that he can bring to past the immortality and eternal life of humans, right? That we on conditions of repentance can know and live and abide in the presence of heaven and of God.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:09:28 So that I know talks about it in several sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. We read about it often in the Book of Mormon, but the soul that repenteth, how great and how much joy is there in that soul. That I think is really, you can see that in this prayer of dedication that that is imploring an encouragement from the Lord through Joseph Smith in this prayer is that the gospel is a gospel of repentance and repentance is important that you can be made clean and whole. That’s part of our spiritual preparation.

Hank Smith: 00:10:08 I was just going to say, John, what’s the quote from Elder Maxwell that you talk about beckoning? What is that one?

John Bytheway: 00:10:13 I love to share that. For those who can see me on this video, this is the international symbol for scolding. Maybe it’s international. I don’t know. So I like to do this when I share the quote.

Hank Smith: 00:10:26 The finger point, right?

John Bytheway: 00:10:27 Yeah. You’re like, “Naughty, naughty.” It’s the finger wagging thing. That’s the gesture I’m making. I’ll change when I get to the part in the quote and you’ll know what I do. So Elder Neal A. Maxwell said, “When conscience calls to us from the next ridge, it is not solely to scold, but also to beckon.”

John Bytheway: 00:10:49 I mean, nobody could put things together like Elder Maxwell, but that idea is you’re being invited higher. I think President Eyring said something similar, “Don’t be surprised,” he said, “when you feel the Spirit if it’s accompanied by what you feel is a rebuke.”

John Bytheway: 00:11:06 There’s a little bit of both in there. You can do better than that. Come up higher. I love that idea.

Hank Smith: 00:11:12 It’s a beckoning, yeah, to live a better way. “I have a better way. Come.”

John Bytheway: 00:11:16 Brent, what you said about repentance, thank you, and it reminded me of the Lord’s prayer. If we want to be forgiven, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. I’m looking at verse 50, “Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob.” See? Sometimes when I’m reading Church history, I’m not there. I’m like, “Send fire upon the wicked mob,” right? Look at the prayer, “Have mercy upon the wicked mob who have driven thy people that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found.”

John Bytheway: 00:11:55 Wow. Your heart’s got to be in a good place to be able to say that. Hank, what’s that funny story you relate? I can’t remember where it is, but in the New Testament where the Twelve are like, “Hey, should we send down fire on these people?”

Hank Smith: 00:12:11 Yeah. In Luke 9, James and John get offended by a Samaritan village, and the first thing they want to do is blow it up, right? “Lord, should we command fire to come from heaven and consume them?” The Lord, “No. No. That’s not-“

John Bytheway: 00:12:27 “No. That’s not why I came.”

Hank Smith: 00:12:29 Yeah. The Lord, he says, “I came not to destroy but to save,” right? I think you’re right, John. If you have this-

John Bytheway: 00:12:35 Yeah, that’s hard to do. Have mercy on the mob.

Hank Smith: 00:12:38 “Have mercy upon the wicked mob.” Yeah. I was looking at verse 22, the blessings that they asked for are just glorious, right? The people who come here will leave, “Armed with thy power, and that thy name may be upon them, and thy glory round about them, and thy angels have charge over them.” That’s a beautiful request.

John Bytheway: 00:13:05 I’m thinking about all the missionaries who have gone forth already but maybe there’s a little bit more when they leave with power from this house. Is that fair?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:13:18 Yeah. I think that speaks to that long promise endowment of power that in this moment, praying for that and what unfolds over the hours and days after the dedication is that receiving of the Lord’s endowment of power that is, in this case, specific to missionary work and to arming the preachers of the Church to go out and to be able to teach the gospel. I think that’s exactly what is being prayed for there.

John Bytheway: 00:13:58 Another reason why we get that sense that the Lord was so anxious that they get this done, it will bless you, it will bless your missionary efforts. We were way up in 53 about repentance. Hey, I have an interesting theological not as much a point, but a question, but a point. Look at verse 42 and I’ve underlined all the Holy Fathers that they are using that term to address God and then look at verse 42.

Hank Smith: 00:14:31 Yeah, “O Jehovah.”

John Bytheway: 00:14:32 Yeah. I remember Robert J. Matthews on just explaining they were not as, I can’t remember the word he used, they didn’t make the distinction as much as we do now, and they’re one. We believe that. We believe they’re one in purpose. So interestingly, though, they mentioned Jehovah here, but in verse four, “Holy Father in the name of Jesus Christ.” So interesting that we’ve now more formally been reminded we pray to the Father in the name of the Son.

Hank Smith: 00:15:10 Well, the entire, I mean, as I’m looking from 24 through the next 20 or 30 verses, there’s this idea of we don’t want our enemies to be destroyed, right? Look at verse 43, “We delight not in the destruction of our fellowmen. Their souls are precious before thee,” but they do ask, go back to 29, “We ask thee, Holy Father, to confound, and astonish and bring shame and confusion, to all those who spread lying reports abroad over the world, against thy servants, if they will not repent.

“John Bytheway: 00:15:48 Interesting.

Hank Smith: 00:15:48 So there’s we don’t want our enemies to be destroyed, but we don’t want them to be successful either. We want the work to roll forth. There’s a beautiful little dichotomy there of we want people to repent, but we want to succeed in our work.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:16:10 Yeah. I think verse 30 speaks to that as well because it says they want an end to the lyings and slanders against the Lord’s people, against the members of the Church because as long as people are creating those reports about them, it’s going to make it harder for them to really teach the gospel and to teach the people about the work that they believe they’ve been sent there to do, right?

Hank Smith: 00:16:41 Brent, as a historian, do you see that today at all, lyings and slanderings?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:16:49 Yeah. I mean, I would say the thing about history and about the way that the Church is written about today is it’s hard because you have social media allows for such a variety of different voices and maybe interpretations and viewpoints, and there’s such a gradation of the way that it’s talked about, the way that the Church and its teachings and policies and people are discussed.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:17:27 When it comes to the history, I think that’s a harder one because there’s things that we learn as we go more about the history, but there are things that are used by people for, I would say, for ill against the Church. There are people who use history to try to promote aspects of the church and history can be very malleable.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:17:57 So I don’t know. I think it’s more in the presentation and interpretation of the history than maybe it is in the falsehoods or lying, if you want to call it those same words that Joseph used in this section.

Hank Smith: 00:18:21 The purpose of using it. You can almost hear his frustration in verse 30, the end of the lying and the slander, right? That’s got to be frustrating for him to have to combat all of these. It’s hard enough just teaching the gospel to people, but teaching it already seems to be from a negative standpoint trying to turn that around is a difficult thing to do and you can sense that coming out of this. What else that you want to point out here?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:18:59 Well, just along these same lines, I think it continues in verse 54 about the idea of having mercy and asking for mercy. I think that that dichotomy that you spoke of of both wanting to see people repent, but then to confound or to stop the slanders and the lies of people, but at the same time I think as I read this, it feels like what is really winning the day is that they’re just praying for the people. It’s a prayer for the world to say, “Please have mercy on these people. We’re going to do our best, but we want some blessings for others so that maybe they can feel the light to do their best as well.”

Hank Smith: 00:20:00 54, have mercy. Verse 55, “Remember the kings, princes, nobles, great ones of the earth, all the way down to the poor, needy, and the afflicted ones of the earth that everyone’s heart can be softened,” in verse 56. So, yeah, I like how you said that. That’s what wins the day. They do express their frustration. He does express his frustration, but then asks for mercy, which I think is a beautiful human thing.

John Bytheway: 00:20:28 I love what Elder Holland said that repentance is perhaps the most encouraging word in the whole Christian vocabulary. He wants it for everybody. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:20:40 There it is again in verse 62, “We  … ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob.” I’m going to write that down. Mercy wins the day. I like that.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:20:51 I think the only other things that I made note of was in verses 77 and 78. I really like the way that this is phrased because it’s a plea with the Lord for them to hear like, “Hear our petitions, and we want to keep a dialogue with you. Answer us from heaven,” it says, but at the same time there’s a very strong demonstration of humility and where they know the glory ought to go. It’s not about hearing us and answering our petitions for our sake, but for His glory, honor, power, and majesty.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:21:40 In 78 it says, “O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord, and answer these petitions and accept the dedication of this house unto thee. The work of our hands which we have built unto thy name.” So that’s the culmination. If we’re going to look at the prayer of dedication in this event as the culmination of the previous several years, that’s the culmination of the prayer is pleading with the Lord to accept the house and like, “Is this good enough? Did we do what it was that was wanted?” I think we get an answer to that in the next section.

John Bytheway: 00:22:20 I wonder how many hours they spent writing this dedicatory prayer.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:22:26 I’ve thought about that, too. I haven’t been able to find anything that directly speaks to that, but I guess, I mean, again, it probably depends on if Joseph is feeling inspired and it just comes out and he scribes it, it’s more the time to do the type and maybe it went pretty quick to get the words, but to get it into a form to present it was probably the time that it took, and I bet that took a few hours.

John Bytheway: 00:23:01 Then take the copies of it over to the overflow. There’s a really cool phrase, I think, in verse 73 here of the dedicatory prayer, “That thy church may come forth out of the wilderness of darkness,” wilderness of darkness. It sounds like a book of Revelation reference, “and shine forth,” and listen to this, “fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.” What a phrase.

John Bytheway: 00:23:33 Here’s one of the few times you will ever see this book footnoted in your scriptures. Go to footnote 73B and you will see Song. This is actually from the Song of Solomon. It’s also repeated, look underneath, in D&C 5, Doctrine and Covenants 5 and Doctrine and Covenants 105. That phrase, that’s an awesome phrase, “Fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.” That’s good.

Hank Smith: 00:24:05 That’s fantastic. I see in this also the Gathering of Israel. If you start, yeah, if you go to verse 62, he says, “We ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob,” that’s Israel right there. Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. “That Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed.” That’s another way of begin to be gathered, right? “And the children of Judah,” that’s verse 64, “return to the lands which thou did give to Abraham.” There we have the Abrahamic Covenant.

Hank Smith: 00:24:39 He talks about them coming back. Look at verse 67, “And may all the scattered remnants of Israel, who have been driven to the ends of the earth, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the Messiah, be redeemed from oppression, and rejoice before thee.”

Hank Smith: 00:24:55 That is the gathering of Israel. So if we were going to connect 1836 here with 2021, that’s where a major connection would be is President Nelson’s focus is on the gathering of Israel, and here it is in the very first temple dedication that one of the major purposes of the temple is the gathering of Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:25:16 Then also, Brent talked about how we could go way back to the first vision with this. I was also thinking of Moroni’s visit to Joseph Smith when he quotes, “The turning of the hearts to the fathers, and the hearts of the fathers to the children.” Again, the gathering of Israel, right? Here’s the promise that was made so long ago that when the Lord scattered Israel and we know that Lehi and his family was part of that scattering. Isaiah lived part of that scattering that one day God would gather Israel, and here you almost see almost the, I don’t know, the ribbon cutting here, part of the grand opening of the gathering of Israel with the dedication of the Kirtland Temple.

John Bytheway: 00:26:04 It’s a good way to put it. Yeah. This is fun reading because there’s a lot of eloquent language from many other places in the scriptures and like you said, mercy wins the day. Is there anything else in here? I mean, we could spend weeks on this. We’ll let people read it, but anything else, Brent, in here that you wanted to point out for us … us today?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:26:27 The only other thing that I think is maybe worth mentioning, and it’s just I think briefly in verse 15 where it says, “And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fullness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing.” I think that it sets up in some ways our next revelation, but it just sets up the idea of the doctrine of the temple that we can grow up by degrees, that we can obtain a fullness, and that we can obtain and become like heavenly parents. Of course, there’s some connection that we could make there to what we learn in Section 93 as well.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:27:27 I guess one other thing that occurs to me just maybe not about the text itself but about the temple, the Kirtland Temple, I think, it’s sometimes been called or referred to as a “preparatory temple.” We’ve talked a lot about preparation. It’s a temple that prepares the Church for a next step.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:27:52 I was thinking about this in the same way that the two levels of priesthood are we have a preparatory priesthood that prepares us to do a higher and holier work, and I think the Kirtland Temple’s purpose was to be that same kind of way, a preparatory temple to prepare the Church members for a higher and holier work to be done. So I think that as you think about maybe that analogy a little bit of the preparatory priesthood and the Kirtland Temple as a preparatory temple, it’s the time that we prepare.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:28:38 The Aaronic Priesthood is to prepare us to do I think a number of things, but prepare us to repent, and we see a lot about repentance in this prayer of dedication, and it prepares us to come in to Christ and to be accepted by Christ. That is, again, something that the prayer of dedication is asking that we come in to Christ and then ask Christ to ask of our works.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:29:10 So that was just something that as I thought about that idea of preparation, the preparation to get to the temple both the 1830s and today and the preparation that we have among the priesthood, it just seems like that’s part of God’s way to prepare us and we take things as we are prepared, and we then grow based on our preparation.

Hank Smith: 00:29:41 Yeah. I see the beginnings of what we would say is our temple experience in some of these verses, right? You talked about them doing anointings, verse 35, “Let the anointing of thy ministers be sealed upon them with power from on high.” Verse 78, you have, “O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord!” Right? These are all kind of you can see the foundation being laid for what we would have in what we would see as the temple today. We have the, what is it? The benefit of being able to have the extended version, the more nuanced version, I don’t know, more of the final product, and we can look back and see the seeds being planted here.

John Bytheway: 00:30:27 I’m just reminded of how President Nelson has given us that phrase, “The Continuous Restoration.” That helps me to see Kirtland-

Hank Smith: 00:30:36 We can see it here.

John Bytheway: 00:30:37 … as something different than Nauvoo. We’re going to get more later on.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:30:41 We do have a lot more knowledge and a lot more, I mean, I think about the Saints in their needing to take on faith the things that continue to come. That doesn’t change for us. We also need to take on faith the things that continue to come. We don’t know what’s going to happen down the road. We just know what we are asked to do in these times, and that’s the same for saints in the 1830s. They were asked to do things. They tried their best to do them and to be prepared and unified. In some ways, we’re still being asked to be prepared and unified, but there are things that are going to come down at some point that will, I think, be marvelous to us and that will help grow our understanding.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:31:41 That’s one of the beautiful things I think about studying Church History is that you see that unfold for the Saints, that we have this perspective of being able to know that we can go to the temple now and we have all of these, but they are living it in real-time, and to watch that happen and to see the true and remarkable faith and the things that happen and the challenges that happen and how they continue to work with and through those is pretty inspiring to me.

Hank Smith: 00:32:20 Yeah, me, too. When Brigham Young said of Section 76, “I couldn’t understand it. I couldn’t get it, so I just let it sit for a while, and I let it in.” Then he was saying decades later, “Now, it’s the greatest thing I’ve ever wrote. I love it, but at first it wasn’t easy to grasp.”

Hank Smith: 00:32:42 I think I love how the dedicatory prayer here finishes. It finishes like so many other sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, so positively, right? I’ve rarely seen a section of the Doctrine and Covenants finish on a down note, where the Lord says, “Well, it’s not looking good. See you later.” It’s always this-

John Bytheway: 00:33:05 It ends with joy.

Hank Smith: 00:33:06 Yeah. Verse 79, “Also this church, to put upon it thy name,” please put your name on is, “and help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with the bright, shining seraphs,” the angels, “around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb! And let these, thine anointed ones, be clothed with salvation, and thy saints shout aloud for joy.”

Hank Smith: 00:33:31 That is a beautiful way to end a dedicatory prayer. Even just reading it gets me excited. I imagine being in the room and hearing it. It would stir you, wake your core.

John Bytheway: 00:33:43 Well, it’s quite prayer, and I was just thinking. It gets quite an answer if you look at Section 110 as the answer. That prayer deserves an answer and, boy, does it get an answer.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:33:56 Yeah. I mean, as we think about what happens in the course of the next week after the dedication, there’s miraculous, marvelous things that happen, and it starts during that day of the dedication. There’s accounts of people seeing angels as the events are taking place to dedicate the house, and there are heavenly manifestations. It happens at evening as there’s about 300, I think it’s men, that are gathered together in the temple. They have a continuation of miraculous experiences.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:34:39 Oliver Cowdery wrote that he saw the glory of God like a great cloud come down and rest upon the house. Benjamin Brown wrote that on that evening during a time of instruction he’s at a pillar of cloud, pillar or cloud rests down upon the house bright as when the sun shines on cloud like as gold. Then he said that two attendees, and this is what he writes, saw three personages hovering in the room with bright keys in their hands.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:35:12 Now, I can’t say for sure who those three personages are or what, but if we jump ahead to Section 110, we have three people that come down and bestow keys, right? It’s interesting to me that they are there. They’re there and they’re waiting for this time. On that Easter Sunday that happens a week after, there is a great answer that’s given to Joseph and Oliver Cowdery is with him in the pulpits there. Then the Lord very clearly accepts the house, and he accepts the work that they’ve done.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:36:04 So this is his plea in the prayer of dedication, “We ask thee O Lord to accept this house, the workmanship of the hands of thy servants, which thou didst command us to build,” and then he goes on, “that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself to his people.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:36:24 On that Easter Sunday, which I think I can’t remember, I think it’s Steve Harper has written that that’s the second greatest Easter Sunday in history, but we see what happens and the description of it is I think it’s quite marvelous, but the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit and gives a description of his countenance shown above the brightness of the sun. “I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who is slain; I am your advocate with the Father. Behold, your sins are forgiven you; you are clean before me; therefore, lift up your heads and rejoice.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:37:12 Then in verse seven, “For behold, I have accepted this house, and my name shall be here; and I will manifest myself unto my people in mercy in this house.”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:37:26 I just can’t think of anything more marvelous than that. I think there’s nowhere else on earth that we I think can feel closer to the presence of our Savior than in the temple. That’s a true statement then as it is, in my view, now.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:37:48 I would just add one other thing about the early description of this I think of the Savior’s appearance and his approach I would say where he says in … Let me get back to it here, but he says in verse five, “Behold, your sins are forgiven you.” Among some of the earliest words that he says to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and we read the 1832 account of the First Vision it says of the Lord, “And he spake unto me saying, ‘Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven thee. Go thy way. Walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments. Behold, I am the Lord of glory. I was crucified for the world, that all those who believe on my name may have eternal life.'”

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:38:33 So the approach of him reminding Joseph and, in this case, Oliver that his sins are forgiven and that that is his nature is to forgive sins and that is something that we should, I think, take very seriously as we approach our days and weeks, as we repent of the shortcomings that we have as humans, that the Lord is always there waiting for us to forgive our sins and to embrace us.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:39:07 It says there, “Lift up your head and rejoice.” I think that’s a beautiful sentiment for us today that we can think to always lift up our heads and rejoice because the Savior loves us and knows us and is there waiting for us.

Hank Smith: 00:39:25 Yeah. I remember our interview with Dr. Mike Wilcox, where we went through section 64 and he says, “Everything is getting forgiveness.” Do you remember that, John? “Everybody is getting forgiveness. You’re getting forgiveness, you’re getting forgiveness.” He said he’s not a casual forgiver. I remember he said he’s a delightful forgiver. He really likes to forgive people of their sins. Here, He does it again.

John Bytheway: 00:39:53 I think I talked about this before in another one, Hank, but I forget. My favorite title for the Savior is Advocate. The fact that he would use that one in verse four just before saying, “Your sins are forgiven you,” “I am your advocate.” When you see the word advocate, you assume three parties already. There’s I’m going to advocate for you to a third-party. I’m your advocate with the Father, and I think I told the group before just Google Jesus+ Advocate +Harry Anderson. There’s a beautiful painting by Harry Anderson that does a lot of the paintings you’ve seen, where it looks like a depiction of the final judgment perhaps and the savior has his hand on the shoulder of this man. It really evokes a feeling of, “Oh, I won’t be alone. I have an advocate.”

John Bytheway: 00:40:47 I love that he uses that title and thank you, Brent, for pointing out that your sins are forgiven. Who was it that we interviewed, Hank, that said what Brent just did about, yeah, the first thing in the First Vision. Was that Tony who? What’s said was, “Your sins are forgiven you.”

Hank Smith: 00:41:05 Right. Yeah. I think it’s been said a number of times that this is almost how He introduces himself.

John Bytheway: 00:41:14 He’s a forgiver.

Hank Smith: 00:41:14 “This is who I am and I am a forgiver.”

John Bytheway: 00:41:17 Yeah, an Advocate and a Forgiver.

Hank Smith: 00:41:19 I’ve seen something here that I wanted to point out when, John, you talked about this is a great prayer, and it gets a great answer. Oftentimes, I want great answers to not good prayers, right? I want a million dollar answer to my five cent prayer. This is a million dollar answer to a million dollar prayer.

Hank Smith: 00:41:40 We also talked about all the work that went in beforehand. So if we want to have these type of experiences with the Lord, we’ve got to be willing to, one, to work. I mean, work hard to do what we’ve been asked to, and then to pray hard, and to pray intently.

Hank Smith: 00:41:57 It seems like working hard to do what you’ve been asked to do combined with praying with all your heart, mind, and might and soul, then turns into an equation here, right? Hard work plus intent, sincere prayer, I wouldn’t even say just hard work, but hard work doing what you’ve been asked to do, plus intense prayer, that leads to these types of answers. I think we could all have them. It’s just sometimes I want to put in a little bit of work, a little bit of prayer, and I’d probably get a little bit of answer, right?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:42:35 I was just thinking about as you said it’s a million-dollar answer for a million-dollar prayer, and I mean that falls into the way that I’ve thought about what happens at the Kirtland temple and then with these manifestations first of the savior, and then we haven’t quite got to Moses, Elias, and Elijah yet, but those are immense rewards for the sacrifice that’s been put in.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:43:06 So if we were to go on a deeper dive into Church History and we’d look at how much the Church, Joseph Smith, others took on financial debts and to allow for the building of the temple to happen, I think one source of the building, just the building committee, and there was just a couple of individuals on the building committee, but we’re about $14,000 in debt.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:43:35 Now, that may not sound like a lot to people today, but $14,000 in 1836 is significant amount of money. That’s just those two individuals. Joseph Smith had additional debts and as did others. Sometimes we think about in the Church today where debt having a negative connotation, but I think of it more in this line of investment.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:44:03 If we’re investing this hard work and we’re investing with our, to use your phrase, a million-dollar prayer, the spiritual return that comes on this temple investment more than makes up for the cost. So that’s the way I look at because some people what happens with finances in Kirtland. I have a colleague named Elizabeth Kuehn who’s just an expert on finances in Kirtland. She’s done a lot of great work on this topic, and especially looking at the Kirtland Safety Society and sometimes that gets pointed out as a major stumbling block, and people saw that as a flaw in Joseph’s leadership and things like that.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:44:56 If you think about the investment that is made to construct the building and then to do the work to prepare both in a physical sense and in a spiritual sense, and then what is received on this Easter Sunday, April 1836, I’m pretty sure I’m going to take that return on the investment. I just think that the manifestations that occurred opened the way for more of the gospel and more of the work that we know today.

John Bytheway: 00:45:33 More of the Continuous Restoration and parts of this are so … I mean, who shows up after? Who else comes after the Advocate, after Jehovah comes?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:45:47 That’s the Moses, Elias, and then Elijah in that order. We learn about Moses appearing and committing the keys to the Gathering of Israel, and that I think, John, you talked about that earlier as being referenced in the prayer of dedication and now we have the keys to do that work, and then Elias committing the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, and to prepare members for the kingdom of God, and then Elijah appearing and committing the keys of the Sealing Power to do work for the living and the dead. Those are, I mean, I don’t even know if I have the right words. I think it was Elder Cook that called these eternity shaping-

Hank Smith: 00:46:44 Oh, wow.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:46:47 … events. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:46:51 I’ve had students asked me before if Elias isn’t Elias, Elijah in the Bible, and there is that case when Elijah is spoken of in the New Testament, it refers to him as Elias. If you look in the Bible Dictionary under the word Elias, you’ll learn all this and it says that Elias can be a title like John the Baptist was called, “an Elisas,” because he was a forerunner, he went before. Then the last two paragraphs said a man named Elias lived in mortality in the days of Abraham who committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland temple on April 3rd, 1836. So, yes, in the New Testament, when you hear the word Elias, that’s usually referring to Elijah, but there is a man named Elias who lived during the time of Abraham.

John Bytheway: 00:47:52 What I love about this, too, is that I remember Joseph Fielding McConkie, one of my professors talking about that sometimes we say the New Testament Church was restored, but then he would say things like, “Well, what priesthood do you hold?”

John Bytheway: 00:48:07 “Melchizedek.”

John Bytheway: 00:48:07 “Oh, is that Old Testament or New? What about your boy?”

John Bytheway: 00:48:12 “Oh, that’s Aaron.”

John Bytheway: 00:48:13 “Is that Old Testament or New? Look at this. Oh, what about … Oh, Moses. Oh, Elias. Oh, Elijah,” and then Malachi is mentioned in verse 14. Then he would say, “This is the old-time religion,” he would say, but I think that it’s interesting. This is from the beginning. I love Abrahamic Covenant mentioned there in verse 12. Like you said, Hank, I think that Robert Millet has said that the Restoration of the Gospel was in fact the restoration of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Hank Smith: 00:48:44 Yeah, and then you have that same verse, right? This verse that comes up in every one of the standard works, where Malachi wrote that Elijah will come and turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to their fathers. Almost for me, Brent, is this same verse is like two bookends. It starts with Moroni quoting it to Joseph Smith in what? 1823, and finishes with it being quoted again in the Kirtland temple in 1836, almost like we started this in 1823. 13 years later, we’ve reached the point where what I was thinking of when I started, right? That’s a long process for the prophet.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:49:33 We don’t have a lot of sources that speak to it, but baptisms for the dead start in the early 1840s. So there’s still a significant, I mean, if you want to look at the stretch of time, a few years is still pretty significant amount of time before that work gets started. Now, there’s lots of things that are happening in the intervening time, but this event happens in 1836 and then we don’t, I guess, start seeing the fruits of the labor until the early 1840s. So to me that suggests that there’s still some things that Joseph is trying to figure out and how this is all supposed to work.

Hank Smith: 00:50:19 It reminds me of one of our guests said, “Think of the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood as a process rather than an event with Peter, James, and John,” that there’s much more to that. That was one event among many and this seems I think you could add that idea that this is part of the restoration of the priesthood, right? Section 110, another step along that line of them understand this. John, what were you going to say?

John Bytheway: 00:50:48 What you said about what Malachi said, “Turning the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the children to their fathers.” And I like to with my students put this side by side with the footnote there of Joseph Smith history because Joseph Smith talks about Moroni quoted it differently where he said he’ll plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers. Then you go, “Oh, this is Abrahamic covenant type of a thing,” and not that the earth with a curse, but that it would be utterly wasted.

John Bytheway: 00:51:21 One of the tenants, is that a work, Hank? Is that a scholar word of what do they call it? Textual criticism is that the earliest account must be the most accurate, but with scripture, we would say a prophet can come along and say, “Let me give you a little bit more,” and it’s not like, “Well, which Malachi, which verse is true?” It’s like verse 15 is exactly true, but what Moroni said in Joseph Smith History, words a little different, but gives us more.

John Bytheway: 00:51:56 Then my understanding is that later on Joseph Smith said, “I could have translated turn as bind or seal.” So it’s a dynamic thing, and a prophet can come along and say, “Let me make that verse a little more clear,” which-

Hank Smith: 00:52:15 Yeah, and I like that.

John Bytheway: 00:52:16 … some people would say, “Oh, the audacity,” but no. A prophet can do that. That’s what prophets do.

Hank Smith: 00:52:20 Yeah. To say that there’s a most correct way to render a verse I think is maybe cornering revelation a little too, trying to paint it into a corner that it can’t be-

John Bytheway: 00:52:32 It’s not static.

Hank Smith: 00:52:32 … malleable for, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:52:34 Yeah, it’s dynamic. Here’s a prophet giving us a little bit more insight on that thing. So, I love the Malachi statement there. You said every one of the standard works, right?

Hank Smith: 00:52:47 Yeah, every one of the standard works and I think it’s the only one to my knowledge. Brent, this feels almost to me as a New Testament teacher as a Mount of Transfiguration reunion along with the restoration of the priesthood with Peter, James, and John. You’ve got pretty much everybody who’s at the Mount of Transfiguration is part of the same process.

John Bytheway: 00:53:09 No. There’s a chart in the Religion 211, the New Testament manual that shows, which is so symmetrical and so elegant the way God does things is that the same characters, Mount of Transfiguration, where they’re at the Kirtland temple.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:53:25 Matthew 17, this section in some ways is, I don’t know, reenactment or a redoing of that event on the Mount of Transfiguration. So, yeah, I think that you’re absolutely right that there’s the receipt of priesthood keys from heavenly messengers. Again, I think to me it speaks to the way that God does things. It shows the pattern.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:54:00 If the Savior’s pattern is to start by forgiving your sins as He speaks, if there’s preparatory priesthood that leads to higher and holier work, if there’s preparatory temples that lead to higher and holier work, if there’s things that are done, they’re done in a pattern that is in the Lord’s way and he reveals those patterns to us. So I think that’s helpful for us as we navigate our own day and our own situations.

Hank Smith: 00:54:34 Brent, even up till the contention you talked about before the dedication of the temple, it reminded me of the darkness that comes before the First Vision, that there’s this darkness they have to get through and pray themselves through, and then here comes this glorious vision and the Lord comes first, “I forgive your sins,” then angels come just like Moroni came, right? So, yeah, I think there’s a beautiful pattern there.

John Bytheway: 00:55:03 It’s a good way to look at it. I love the idea. I mean, to me it’s testimony building that the same people showed up. It’s not just, “Well, I’m another guy in the 19th century that has a new take on the bible.” It’s, “Well, actually, I claim to have been visited by the Father and the Son.”

John Bytheway: 00:55:21 “What?”

John Bytheway: 00:55:22 “Well, that’s not all. John the Baptist.”

John Bytheway: 00:55:24 “What?”

John Bytheway: 00:55:24 “Well, that’s not all. Peter, James, and John.”

John Bytheway: 00:55:27 “What?”

John Bytheway: 00:55:27 “Well, that’s not all. I saw Moses.”

John Bytheway: 00:55:29 “What?”

John Bytheway: 00:55:30 “And Elijah and, well, I actually saw Adam and Seth. Well, and I could tell you what Paul looked like and what he sounded like.”

John Bytheway: 00:55:36 I mean, that is-

Hank Smith: 00:55:40 Yeah. What did someone say once, John? They have the same celestial goal. Is that where all the prophets from Adam to President Nelson have the same goal in mind, right? They’re all still part of the process. Yeah. Anything else about Section 110? What a day. I like how you said that. The second-greatest Easter ever. If anybody is wondering what the first greatest Easter is, just go read John 20 and 21.

John Bytheway: 00:56:12 Yeah. There you go.

Hank Smith: 00:56:13 That was the greatest Easter. You’re like, “Which one is the greatest one?”

John Bytheway: 00:56:17 I’m looking in the Come, Follow Me manual and I just love this. Well, in verse 10, it says, “The fame of this house shall spread to foreign lands and this is the beginning of the blessing which shall be poured out upon the heads of my people even so. Amen.” That vision closed, another one opens, but I love this paragraph on 166 of your manual. Why the great excitement on both sides of the veil? The promise that the Saints would be endowed with power from on high was one reason they had gathered to Ohio in the first place. It takes you to Section 38, which Brent mentioned.

John Bytheway: 00:56:52 Greater things were promised for the future. This the Lord declared is the beginning of the blessing which will be poured out upon the heads of my people. The era we now live in with accelerated temple work and ordinances available to millions of the living and the dead had its beginnings in Kirtland when the vale or the earth was beginning to burst. We should probably mention they sang that song, right?

Hank Smith: 00:57:17 That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 00:57:17 Was that the first time they sang the Spirit of God or was it known to them before?

Hank Smith: 00:57:21 I think so. I think he wrote it for that occasion.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:57:25 I believe that’s right. Yeah. I think that it was written specifically for the dedication of the Kirtland temple.

John Bytheway: 00:57:30 Well, and time stood still for me a couple of years ago. I was in the Kirtland Visitor Center and I saw a painting of these Moses, Elias, Elijah. Have you seen that one right by the doors? Oh, man! I just stood there and looked at that. The look on Joseph and Oliver’s face as these guys are coming down, it’s … These guys, sorry.

Hank Smith: 00:57:59 Hey, fellows.

John Bytheway: 00:58:02 Forgive me. As these prophets are coming, and I just thought, I thought of the words of that hymn. “The visions and blessings of old are returning/ and angels are coming to visit the earth,” and that’s what the painting depicts. I was like, “Wow! Look at that.” What a moment. What an answer to a prayer.

Hank Smith: 00:58:23 What a day to be a Latter-day Saint and to experience that. I have a quote from Joseph Smith. He says, “Brother George A. Smith arose, this is during the dedication, “and began to prophesy when a noise was heard like the sound of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the temple and all the congregation simultaneously rose, being moved upon by an invisible power. Many began to speak in tongues and prophesy. Others saw glorious visions and I,” Joseph Smith says, “beheld, the temple was filled with angels, which fact I declared to the congregation, and the people of the neighborhood came running together and were astonished to what was taking place.” They saw a bright light like a pillar fire resting upon the temple. What a day. I like what you said, Brent. The spiritual return is worth the cost.

John Bytheway: 00:59:14 Return on investment. Yeah. Thank you for that.

Hank Smith: 00:59:17 Brent, while we have you here before we let you go, we want to ask you a question. Here you are. You are a historian. You’ve dedicated your life to becoming a competent historian, right? You’re good at what you do. Yet, here you are a firm, faithful believer in the prophet and the Restoration. Can you tell us a little bit about how you feel about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries?

Dr. Brent Rogers: 00:59:51 I think I mentioned earlier that history can be malleable and it can be written and interpreted in different ways, but there are sources that exist, and they are the bedrock and should be the bedrock of any historical writing and interpretation.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:00:15 The words on those records, they don’t change. They continue to speak to us in different ways, and that’s been one of the things that I loved about studying Joseph Smith and Church History is getting back to those sources, and seeing in those sources for myself what took place in the past.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:00:45 Sometimes there are things in history we think we should be entitled to know everything that happened and every reason why things happened in history whether that’s in Church History or American History or World History, and then we have a vantage point from our present day that sometimes we think that what happened in the past should fit exactly how we think today and being able to go back to those sources and to think critically about them gives me the opportunity to think through the things that people knew and when they knew it, and how they approached different events and different things that happened.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:01:35 For me, when I look at Joseph Smith’s life, I see somebody who earnestly was seeking to do God’s will, what he believed to be God’s will for him, and he never deviated from that. That’s, to me, when I look at the sources, that’s what I see in the sources, and I see that in the records and accounts of a lot of other individuals who heard about the Book of Mormon and who heard about Joseph Smith’s revelations, and they conducted their lives that way.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:02:17 That uplifts me. That inspires me. That encourages me, but there are things that have happened in the past that we don’t have a lot of sources about. So when there aren’t a lot of sources that leaves room for speculation, it leaves room for interpretation, it leaves room for me, it leaves room for faith, and leaves room for choice and how we choose to look at those things and through which lens we choose to look at them.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:02:52 For me, I try always to look at events of the past and events with Joseph Smith and with Church leaders since and with Church members since is that people who were trying their best, but that maybe don’t always match up with 2021 and beyond thinking about the way things should be, but I think that if we look at things with a bit of a lens of faith and make choices to give room for people to be human, there’s good reason to appreciate things that happened in the past.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:03:39 If we understand context, that’s really helpful, too, but I know that we all … It’s a thing of human nature, I think. I mean, it is for me, anyway. I want to know. I want to have a reason. I want to search out the sources and create a pretty concrete narrative. There’s just times when there’s not a piece that connects the narrative. In those cases, like I said, there’s options that you can have. You can make up your own narrative. You can interpret. You can guess as to why things happened.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:04:18 For me, I turn myself to the scriptures and a favorite scripture of mine is in 2 Nephi 9:28 and 29. Hank, you mentioned that I’m a competent historian. I appreciate that. I hope that that’s true, but it says, “When they are learned, they think they are wise.” So I guess for me I consider myself learned. I don’t know if I’m wise, but I’m learned and I know what the scripture is saying. Sometimes when we learn a lot of things we think we’re really smart and we know everything, but the scripture warns about hearkening not unto the council of God and instead setting it aside supposing they know of themselves. I try not to know of myself.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:05:17 I try to follow this next scripture, “To be learned is good if they hearken unto the councils of God.” I guess for me as a historian trained to want to know and to find the sources and to create and construct those narratives and make something that is true to the past, in those cases, when there are sources that don’t sit well with me or there aren’t sources that create the whole picture because we have to know that we can’t reconstruct every day of every person’s life in a history. Even the best written histories take a mere fraction, and I’m not going to put a percentage on it, but a mere fraction of even what the available sources are, which are a mere fraction of a person’s life.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:06:09 So when there are those gaps, I turn and I look towards Christ. I guess that’s where I’m at and that’s what I say and what I do. I know enough to know that I don’t know. The things that are important to me are the things that I find in the scriptures that whether it’s the bible or the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants, there are things in there that teach me about Christ and about the nature of God. That’s where I choose to focus.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:06:49 There are things that I’ve learned about Christ. There are experiences that I’ve had with understanding his love and his atonement, and that’s where I direct my energies. I think that focusing on the savior and on his love and then following those two great commandments that he outlined for us along with the scriptures and revelations that generated from Joseph Smith, they teach me at least more about Christ and they make me want to keep my focus on him.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:07:24 So I think I try to hearken unto the councils of God and because the scriptures that I read and that I love, I mean, many of them emanated from Joseph Smith, I take the fruits of what he’s done and what he’s brought forth. I believe that he was doing his best to do God’s will and because of that, I get to learn more about Christ and because of that, I get to go on a journey that has a pretty awesome upside. I marvel at the work of Joseph. I marvel at the faith of him, but also of many Latter-day Saints. I’m grateful for the opportunities that I’ve had in this life to come to know my Savior better, and I’m able to know my Savior better I believe because of the Book of Mormon and because of the revelations that we have in the Doctrine and Covenants and Joseph Smith brought those forth for us to continue to do God’s work. That’s where I’m at and that’s what I believe. I say that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Hank Smith: 01:09:01 Amen. Amen. Wow. Dr. Rogers, thank you. Brent, thank you for being with us today. We have been uplifted and taught wonderful ways. John, we’re just lucky to be here.

John Bytheway: 01:09:15 That’s what I think. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:09:17 Yeah. I don’t know how I got this job.

John Bytheway: 01:09:20 Thank you so much, Brent.

Hank Smith: 01:09:21 Actually, I do, but I’m grateful. Yeah, Brent, it was wonderful.

Dr. Brent Rogers: 01:09:25 Thank you both. Thank you both for having me. I appreciate you and all the good work that you’re doing.

Hank Smith: 01:09:33 We feel the same about you. We want to thank Dr. Brent Rogers for being with us. We want to thank all of you for listening. We’re grateful for your support. We know that some of you turn off the podcast and you don’t hear about our production team. So if you’re reaching to hit the stop button right now, you stop. You stop so you can hear of our executive-

John Bytheway: 01:09:53 Use your most exciting voice for this part, Hank.

Hank Smith: 01:09:56 This is exciting. You want to know the names of our executive producers because we love them and we owe a lot to them. Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and we have an incredible production crew. We have David Perry, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton, Lisa Spice, and Jamie Neilson. We love our production crew. We hope that all of you will join us on our next episode of followHim.