Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith and I am here with my worthy and capable cohost, John Bytheway. Hello, John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:00:29 An intro ripped from the headlines or rather verse seven of Section 102.

Hank Smith: 00:00:35 Right from the scriptures.

John Bytheway: 00:00:37 I don’t think that’s about me, but I’ll take it. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:00:40 Yes. Well, I’m sure it has a double meaning. Hey, we want to remind everybody to find us on social media, on Instagram and Facebook. If you want to watch the podcast, you can watch John and I and our guest every week if you’d like. You can find us on YouTube. Show notes, go to followhim.co, followhim.co and, of course, we would love it if you’d take the time to rate and review the podcast. That actually really helps us a lot. John-

John Bytheway: 00:01:07 -Hank, I want to add something. There’s not only show notes, but look around. There’s a transcript.

Hank Smith: 00:01:13 There’s a transcript at followhim.co.

John Bytheway: 00:01:14 People in my ward didn’t know that existed, and they’re very excited now and going down to Walmart and buying all kinds of printer paper and printing out transcripts.

Hank Smith: 00:01:23 So they can print out and bind the transcript together?

John Bytheway: 00:01:26 Bind it, mark it, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:01:28 Yup. John, we’re in for a treat. It’s every week we’re in for a treat, but I’m especially excited because I’m here with someone who makes me feel like I can just be myself. Tell us who we have today.

John Bytheway: 00:01:41 We are happy to welcome back Scott Woodward that we’ve had before. So glad he’s here. Dr. Scott Woodward got his PhD in Instructional Psychology and Technology from Brigham Young University. He’s been teaching in the Church Educational System for nearly two decades. I don’t know how old this bio is. Is it two and a half yet? He’s currently a member of the faculty at BYU Idaho, BYU Idaho Religion faculty. He’s a Managing Director of Doctrine and Covenants Central. I hope you’ll check that out, a partner with Book of Mormon Central, a rich resource of gospel scholarship and all things related to the Doctrine and Covenants. I love those websites, and they’ve been so helpful. We’re so glad to have you back, Dr. Woodward. Thank you for coming.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:02:28 Thanks so much for having me back. It’s an honor.

Hank Smith: 00:02:30 Yeah. Scott Woodward, honestly, you’re Dr. Woodward, I know, but to me you’re Scott and you’re just somebody who I just like to be around. You make people feel good.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:02:41 Thanks! Thanks, Hank. Likewise, brother. Thank you so much.

Hank Smith: 00:02:44 I was sad when you went up to Rexburg and left us down here in Provo, but I’m glad that they have you up there. Hey, I want to tell everybody, if you want to have an awesome experience, go back and listen to Episode 9. Way back a long time ago, John, if you remember, we weren’t very good at this, not like we’re great at it now, but we really weren’t good at it then and Scott joined us for some commentary on Sections 18 and 19. Do you remember, John, he said put Martin and the Savior forehead-to-forehead and they’re having this discussion. I mean, people have asked me, “What’s your favorite episode?” and that’s one that always comes to mind is Scott Woodward on Episode 9. I don’t even know if you remember it, Scott. You’ve done so much since then, but that was a good day for us.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:03:31 Yeah. Those sections are some of my favorites. So, that was awesome.

John Bytheway: 00:03:35 It’s interesting you had mentioned that, Hank. I actually just this week got an email, “Thank you for helping me change my feelings, my perception about Martin Harris,” and that was a lot of what you did, Scott. So, thank you.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:03:50 Yeah. Can I say the good people of Clarkston, Utah, after that one, they reached out and said, “We like that you paint Martin Harris in a good light. Could you come and talk to us?” So, last week, I just spoke at Martin Harris’s graveside to a bunch of wonderful people in Clarkston, and we just talked Martin Harris for an hour. It was magical.

John Bytheway: 00:04:12 That’s fantastic. That’s great. That’s great.

Hank Smith: 00:04:12 It was on the podcast, Scott, that they heard that?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:04:15 Yeah. They were listening to this podcast, that, that episode, and then we made that connection, and blessed my life getting to know those people, and just sending salt to the earth and being right there at Martin Harris’ graveside just talking about Martin Harris for an hour was just so fun.

Hank Smith: 00:04:30 We’re not doing Sections 18 and 19 today. We are far ahead, Scott. We are going to jump in to Section 102 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It’s February of 1834. So, the Church is coming up upon four whole years of organization. So far, I’ll just give a little background and let you take it from there. Things in Missouri are not going well with the Saints being driven out in the fall of 1833 and here in 1834. Joseph is in Ohio.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:00 Yeah. So, Section 102 is actually not a revelation. How about that? Section 102 is, wait for it, the minutes of a meeting. The minutes of a meeting is what we got here. This is minutes of a meeting edited by Joseph Smith to make sure that the scribe got it right, and he tweaked and edited it. This is what we have.

Hank Smith: 00:05:23 I don’t know if there’s anything that’s quite as exciting.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:26 Are you on pins and needles now? This is good.

Hank Smith: 00:05:31 The minutes!

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:33 It’s not just the minutes of a meeting. This is the minutes of a meeting where they organized the very first high council of the Church.

Hank Smith: 00:05:42 Ooh, okay.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:43 I know. If you don’t know, if you’re teaching Sunday School or you’re trying to get your children’s attention with scriptures, I think you just lead with that. I think if you just lead with that, “Do you guys want to study about the minutes of a meeting where the first high council was organized?” I mean, you really don’t have to be. You’ve got them in the palm of your hand at that point.

John Bytheway: 00:06:04 Edge of their seat! Yeah!

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:06:05 That’s right. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:06:08 When most teenagers hear about the high council, the only thing they know is that’s the one Sunday where somebody shows up and acts like the stake presidency lives on another planet, “We bring you greetings from the Stake Presidency,” right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:06:23 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:06:23 “We bring you greetings. We come in peace.”

John Bytheway: 00:06:24 “We bring love and greetings.”

Hank Smith: 00:06:26 “The love and greetings of the stake presidency.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:06:28 That’s right. That’s right. All that love and all that greeting, that started right here in Section 102 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Hank Smith: 00:06:36 Okay. So, all of the high councilors out there, please don’t write us a letter.

John Bytheway: 00:06:42 We love you. We give you our love and greetings, too.

Hank Smith: 00:06:45 We do. We love you.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:06:45 One of my friends he said some Church callings have on the scale of glory to work ratio, they’re different. He said high councilmen seems to have a high glory to low work ratio. They get recognized every time they’d come in to the meeting. They get recognized, Brother Johnson from the high council, and then the Stake Executive Secretary is high work no glory or the Ward Clerk is just working like crazy–gets no love. Anyway, so here’s the situation.

Hank Smith: 00:07:18 The minutes!

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:07:19 The minutes, the minutes. So, Joseph Smith had … This is not the first time he had convened a council. That’s one of the geniuses of Church organization is councils, right? Section 42 is actually where that starts in the law, right? Remember that section, the law? In the law, it says that difficult situations particularly dealing with Church disciplinary action should be dealt with by bringing the person before the Church, the elders of the church.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:07:53 So, Joseph would convene councils to arbitrate, adjudicate church decisions, especially with church disciplinary type stuff. So, they’re just called as needed, but as the church is growing and things are getting a little more complex, there needs to be what Joseph called a standing council, like a council that’s always the council. They’re the guys, right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:08:17 So, on February 17th 1834, Joseph told a group of priesthood leaders that he would “show the order of councils in ancient days as shown to him by vision.” So, this isn’t the vision. This isn’t the revelation, but this is coming from some revelation Joseph never recorded down. These are the fruits of that vision if you will.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:08:40 Let me read a little bit of what Joseph said, and this is from the minutes that Joseph edited that become Section 102, but this part got edited out, but it’s in the original in the Joseph Smith Papers.

Hank Smith: 00:08:53 So, whatever you’re about to read us did not make. It didn’t make that.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:08:57 Yeah. So, here’s what the minutes say. It said, “Brother Joseph said that he would show the Order of Councils in Ancient Days as shown to him by vision, the law by which to govern the council in the Church of Christ.” Joseph said Jerusalem anciently was the seat of the Church council in Ancient Days. The Apostle Peter was the president of the Council, and he held the keys of the Kingdom of God on the earth and was appointed to this office by the voice of the Savior and acknowledged in it by the voice of the Church.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:09:27 Then Peter had two men appointed as councilors, Joseph explained, and in case Peter was absent, his councilors could transact business or either one of them. The president could also just transact business alone. He said, “It was not the order of heaven in ancient councils to plead for and against the guilty as in our current judicial court.” Interesting.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:09:47 He said, “But every councilor when he arose to speak should speak precisely according to evidence and according to the spirit of the Lord, that no councilor should attempt to scorn the guilty when his guilt was manifest,” so no shaming here. But he says, “The person accused before the High Council had the right to one-half the members of the council to plead his cause in order that his case might be fairly presented before the president, that a decision might be rendered according to truth and righteousness.” Then he ended by saying that that Ancient Order is the example for our high priests today.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:10:21 So, they voted on it, all present, and he said, “Who here is willing to come under the present order of things as I’ve described?” And it was unanimous that they wanted to all put themselves under the will of God as pertaining to the council.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:10:41 So, that’s the interesting, if there’s a revelatory part of Section 102, I think that’s it that Joseph learned about how ancient councils were run. So, in some ways, this is like a restoration of ancient councils to some degree. So, yeah. So, that’s that. They call it in the section heading you can see it’s called the Form and Constitution of the High Council. This is the Form and Constitution.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:11:07 Now, they said that there were some problems in the minutes. Some people are like, “I don’t know if I jotted that down right. Joseph was talking fast.” So, they said, “Joseph, could you look over the minutes and let us know if this is accurate.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:11:18 So, he said, “Sure.” He took them home. On the 18th, he’s going through them. Then on the 19th, they reconvened, and he said, “I’ve gone over them as best I could, and I think this is as accurate as it gets.” He said, “Let’s read it.” They read it three times. They read Section 102 three times, and people were listening carefully. Then there was one thing tweaked, and then they all agreed, “This is perfect. This is excellent.” So, that’s how Section 102 comes about.

Hank Smith: 00:11:45 Do you think it’s a pattern, Scott? They’re writing this down for a pattern for future councils or is this to run their council?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:11:52 Totally.

Hank Smith: 00:11:52 Both?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:11:53 This will be the pattern not only, yeah, because this makes allowance both for the standing High Council in Kirtland and then the creation of any other High Councils as needed. You can even have little ad hoc High Councils called and branches of the church if you need to, verses 24 and 25 say. So, yeah, this is going to be the pattern. Today, remarkably, High Councils run a lot like this.

Hank Smith: 00:12:21 Yeah. They still do. I remember drawing numbers as in verse 17, right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:12:25 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:12:26 Drawing numbers, even and odd. Still is done to this day.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:12:31 Yeah, yeah. So, this has been the governing sheet that, how does it say, “The Constitution, the Constitution of the High Council.

John Bytheway: 00:12:38 Are there any appropriate verses that we ought to make sure we touch on?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:12:45 Yeah. So, let’s look at verse two. This gives us the mission statement for High Councils. The High Council was appointed by revelation for the purpose of settling important difficulties, which might arise in the Church, which could not be settled by the Church or the Bishop’s Council to the satisfaction of the parties.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:13:09 So, that’s, I think, the key in our current Church Handbook if you look up anything about disciplinary councils and when a council should be called. It will talk about, well, if it’s a certain degree of complexity or difficulty, then the High Council should be involved, and then it will say, “See D&C 102, verse 2.” Yeah, this is still the governing.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:13:31 So, on a Bishop’s Disciplinary Council, there are certain things that a bishop can adjudicate as a judge in Israel, but there are some things that they need to defer to the stake, and then the stake president may say, “This would be one that we want to call in the full High Council over,” right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:13:51 Typically, if someone is going to lose their membership in the Church, for instance, that’s going to be pretty serious. We want to make sure we have the wisdom of the whole group there.

Hank Smith: 00:13:59 I like this because inherent in the statement in verse 2, the purpose of settling important difficulties, it’s almost as if Joseph and the Lord I would think are saying you are going to have difficulties. It’s normal. It’s normal for human beings to have difficulties. Sometimes we think if we’re having any difficulties at all in our ward, stake or family, we’re doing something wrong. Well, no, the Lord inherently is saying, “You’re going to have difficulties and I’m going to give you a way to settle these.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:14:28 That’s right. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:14:30 It’s okay to have them.

John Bytheway: 00:14:32 I think it’s interesting that in verse 13 it allows for different levels of difficulty. Well, they’ll decide whether it’s difficult or not, and if it is not, two of the councilors shall speak upon it, verse 14, but if it is thought to be difficult, four shall be appointed. If more difficult, six. It’s fascinating.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:14:58 Yes. There’s almost a preliminary vote taken like, “How difficult is this? Is this going to require all the stops or can we handle this with just two?” Yeah. That’s right. I love the built-in safety for the accused, someone who perhaps has violated something. Verse 15, “The accused in all cases has a right to one-half of the council to prevent insult or injustice.” Meaning, so half of the high council is going to make sure that they’re not being treated poorly, they’re not being shamed, that what they’re doing, how they’re being represented, how the evidence is being examined is fair. That’s awesome. There are also verse-

Hank Smith: 00:15:47 -That’s interesting, Scott.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:15:49 Yeah. Go ahead.

Hank Smith: 00:15:49 Scott, I was just going to say it’s interesting to me because occasionally today, 2021, you’ll see high council meetings coming up in the news. You never hear from the Church’s side, but from Section 102, we learned that whoever this high council was for, half that room was there to watch over them being protected. Sometimes it’s painted as if someone has marched in there and it’s the Church against this individual where the Lord is saying, “No,” where the Lord is saying, “No, that’s not how it is.” So, anyone who sees one of these on the news can know half that room was designated to be on the side of the individual brought in.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:16:31 Super important. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:16:31 I’m glad you brought that up, Hank. My favorite nickname for the Savior–I might change my mind tomorrow–but today, it’s Advocate. You come in to that if you are in a membership council, you have half the room, are your advocates there and are acting like, I love that, to prevent insult or injustice. Someone is there on your side.

Hank Smith: 00:16:53 Yeah. I would say, John, everyone’s on your side, but these people are specifically assigned-

John Bytheway: 00:16:58 Specifically, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:16:59 … to watch out for you. I think that’s just an important thing because the way I’ve seen these painted in the news-

John Bytheway: 00:17:06 Yeah, you’re right.

Hank Smith: 00:17:07 … seems to be 15 against one, right? Bring them in and let’s-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:17:13 Line them up against the wall. Yeah. No. This-

John Bytheway: 00:17:16 What are the others doing, Scott? I think it might be good to talk about that. The others are there to look at what?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:17:23 Yeah. They’re there to protect the good name of the Church. Yeah. So, half have the interest of the accused and half have the interest of the Church in mind, right? This isn’t all mercy, all justice. This is supposed to be a blend of “just right”. Then the president is supposed to weigh all the evidence and in a prayerful attitude, come to a conclusion of what should be done and what should be done should always be geared toward helping the person.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:17:56 We’re talking right now about disciplinary types of councils, but high councils are used for other things, but in disciplinary council, it’s always about how do we help that person truly repent, right? The worth of souls, we’re back to Section 18 for a second, “The worth of souls is great in the sight of God,” right? “Therefore, cry repentance.” So, these councils, some sins are serious and they need to be, as far as helping that person repent of a serious egregious sin, it’s going to take sometimes the wisdom and prayerful action of a group of men like this, like the High Council, and the president will make a decision after hearing all the evidence and then the high council needs to then sanction that.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:18:44 If anyone feels like, “I don’t know that we got all the evidence,” so let’s look for instance in verse 19, after the evidences are heard, the councilors, accuser, and accused have spoken, which they get to speak for themselves, verse 18 says, so everyone gets a voice here, the president shall give a decision. Verse 19 says, “According to the understanding which he shall have of the case, and call upon the twelve councilors to sanction the same by their vote,” but verse 20 says, “Should the remaining councilors, who have not spoken, or any one of them, after hearing the evidences and pleadings impartially discover an error in the decision of the president, they can manifest it, and the case shall have a re-hearing.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:19:26 We want to get this right. By the way, in this instance, in this setting, the president was the President of the Church. Joseph Smith was the president of this high council, which I love the humility here. The President of the Church could get it wrong? For sure. That’s why we have a council. If someone thinks that maybe he’s out of line, they ought to bring it up and say, “I think maybe we missed an important piece of the evidence here, President. Can we reconsider that?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:19:53 Then verse 21, “If, after a careful re-hearing any additional light is shown upon the case, then the decision shall be altered accordingly.” If not, then the previous decision will stand.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:20:02 So, I just think this is layered with just checks and balances, right? Any one of us can make snap judgments, but it’s not very often that a group of, I think, humble, dedicated people of … We got 12 high councilors, plus a presidency, so we got 15 people who are just trying to get it right–trying to figure out the best way to help this person repent. I think they’re going to get it right. If they don’t, which is possible, then let’s reexamine the evidence until we do.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:20:36 So, just a lot of layers in here just to make sure it’s done well and done right, and that justice is done.

Hank Smith: 00:20:41 What would you say to a teenager who struggles with the idea that we have these at all, right? Someone who says, “This just seems mean that you bring someone in. It seems unloving to bring someone in.” Yet, I would say anytime I’ve been a part of any of these, they’ve always been very positive and very uplifting and very good. Where I can see if you’ve never been a part of it, it seems maybe a little more, yeah, scary and difficult. So, any advice for teachers or for parents who are trying to explain this to their youngsters?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:21:21 I’ll give it a shot. The Church Handbook–the current handbook–has a great little one, two, three purposes of church disciplinary councils. Number one, “Help protect others.” If there’s somebody who has some tendencies to hurt people, whether physically or emotionally, any abusive language or actions that they’re taking toward other people, those people need to be identified and talked to. We’re trying to protect other people, maybe from someone’s negative influence. Maybe it could be they’re always doctrinally digging it. People are trying to sow seeds of doubt. That can be a thing. So, of course, the first thing-

Hank Smith: 00:22:03 Of course, any physical, emotional, sexual abuse, anything like that we’re trying to protect people. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:22:08 Totally. Yeah. So, yeah, spiritual, emotional, physical, all of that. So, protect others is number one. Number two is then, “Help that person access the redeeming power of Jesus Christ through repentance.” That person, clearly by the time they’re in front of a high council, they have not been repenting on their own to a point where it’s gotten so serious that we need to know, “Let’s see if we can help you. Let’s see if we can help you.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:22:33 Then the third is then, “To protect the integrity of the Church.”

Hank Smith: 00:22:39 What does that mean, Scott, to you?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:22:41 Yeah. So, sin cannot be, especially serious sin, you can’t just turn a blind eye. This can start to stay in the reputation of the Church, right? If people are just allowed to just whatever, and there’s no real consequences, we say, “Oh, we shouldn’t be doing that,” but then there’s actually no real consequence, that taints the name of the Church and the integrity of the doctrine.

Hank Smith: 00:23:07 I think you’re exactly right, John. I bet you thought of Alma, chapter 4. We’ve been companions for so long I’m starting to think for you, but I bet you thought of Alma 4, where Alma, the younger sees that the wickedness of the Church was a great stumbling block to those who did not belong to the Church, right? He’s got to go on this reactivation tour. The same thing happens right with his father, Alma the Elder, back at the end of the Book of Mosiah, where he has to put in this policy of basically what we would call excommunicating people if they’re not repenting. You can see how hard it is for him. So, here it is straight out of the Book of Mormon twice. They’re really close to each other, the end of Book of Mosiah and the beginning of Alma.

John Bytheway: 00:23:50 Yeah, and I was thinking of Moroni, and Moroni 6 has this little tiny handbook of instructions in Moroni 6 and also mentions briefly a Church council like this. I wanted to add that, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m looking in the newest handbook and it doesn’t use the phrase disciplinary council anymore. They’re called membership councils.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:24:11 Oh, you’re right. You’re right. Sorry, I said that.

John Bytheway: 00:24:11 No. I thought that’s-

Hank Smith: 00:24:15 They’re called membership councils.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:24:16 Membership councils.

John Bytheway: 00:24:16 Yeah, and I thought that makes sense because I remember on the high council where someone was trying to come back and yet it was called a disciplinary council and I thought, “It’s probably the wrong word.” It was more like a reinstatement or something, which is what happened, but maybe the idea of membership council is great. I think also the words disfellowship and excommunication aren’t in the manual anymore. It talks about membership withdrawal or temporary membership restriction, something like that.

Hank Smith: 00:24:48 Yeah. Scott, I hear you saying one thing that, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but it sounds like to me you’re saying, listen, if someone is to this point the unloving thing would be to do nothing, just let it go. That would be for-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:25:04 Totally.

John Bytheway: 00:25:04 For the reputation of the Church.

Hank Smith: 00:25:06 For others. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:25:08 Yeah. That could put other people in jeopardy. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:25:13 Yeah. So, a membership council is the loving step to protect people and protect the church when, man, I just don’t see it painted that way often by others who are part of these.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:25:25 You’re right.

John Bytheway: 00:25:25 You’re right, Hank. Those who have been involved and have been on a high council or have been in [inaudible] and seen these things, I have very positive, beautiful feelings about some of those meetings, and the power and the spirit of the Atonement being made manifested have been amazing when I’ve been involved in those. So, you’re right.

Hank Smith: 00:25:48 Yeah, and I’ll tell you also, John, that not only are they powerful for just the people there, but also I would, and not my experience, the people who come in for the membership council, the member who is coming in has a positive experience. In my experiences with it, they’ve had a positive experience. It’s been very humbling for me to see how they proceed through this, right? What a beautiful and humbling thing because I think everyone in the room was thinking the same thing I was. I don’t know if you were, John, ever, but I was thinking, “Well, there but for the grace of God go I,” right? Just someone ended up in a bad place.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:26:31 Yeah. Elder Ballard has a whole article about church disciplinary councils back when they were called that, back in 1990, an Ensign article of September 1990. He told a story of a relief society president. I’ll just quote him. He said, “A woman who had been Relief Society president tells of the love and support she received during a painful period of disfellowshipment,” when they used to call it that. “She said, ‘When the brethren of the council listen to me. I could feel love as I had never felt it before. They all wept with me,’ and then with agony she acknowledges.” Elder Ballard says, “Every member of the Church must realize that he or she is capable of sinning.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:27:14 Like you said, Hank, “There but for the grace of God go I.” This is a Relief Society president talking who went through something that I’m sure she didn’t plan on going there, and yet she went there. Now, here she is trying to be helped in, “How can I repent?” She said, “How I have paid for fooling myself about what I was doing right, the justifications, the rationalization.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:27:35 So, this is great being brought. Oftentimes, by the way, this is initiated by the member themselves, right? There’s no witch hunts going on out there. There may be cases where someone might be called in if they’re belligerent, if they’re harming people, of course, but oftentimes, these are initiated by the person as they want to fully repent. So, what a courageous thing, and what a beautiful system that is set in place.

Hank Smith: 00:27:59 Yeah. Wow! You did something of [Section] 102 I did not know we could do. Here we were joking about the minutes of a meeting, Scott, and you were sandbagging us. You said that you were going to bring it.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:28:12 Can I just say one more thing?

Hank Smith: 00:28:14 Please do.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:28:15 Yeah. Verse 23, I think this is interesting. Just to note that this is not just for disciplinary type things, but it says, “In the case of difficulty respecting doctrine or principle, if there is not a sufficiency written to make the case clear to the minds of the council,” then “The president may inquire and obtain the mind of the Lord by revelation.” These could be places where difficult doctrines are wrestled with. I love that the Lord says, “First, look in the scriptures.” Scriptures are doctrinally primary and if it hasn’t been sufficiently made clear in the scripture, then the president can inquire the Lord and receive revelation.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:28:56 I just think that’s interesting. I’m a doctrinal guy. I love just to scour the scriptures, looking for what’s consistently taught and repeated and so I can have doctrinal confidence in what I’m teaching or how I’m trying to live my life. I love the Lord just puts a primary point to say, “Is it in the scriptures? Is it clear in the scriptures? If it’s not, then there’s actually a system in place where the mind of the Lord can be had by revelation.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:27 Scott, I think that principle can help us in our own lives. Oftentimes, I think if we go way back in our episodes, John, you’ll remember Dr. Lili Anderson talking about this. She said oftentimes we go to the Lord with questions when the answer has been made clear over and over and over in the scriptures. I remember she used the example of a woman who said, “Well, I just haven’t received an answer of should I move in with these roommates who are doing these terrible things. I keep going to the Lord and asking him and I don’t get a yes or a no.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:59 She said, “Well, do you think they’ll influence you to do bad things as well?”

Hank Smith: 00:30:03 “Yeah, I do.”

Hank Smith: 00:30:04 She said, “I think that’s been made pretty clear in the scriptures what you should do about that, right? No wonder you’re not getting an answer. It’s in the scriptures pretty clearly.”

Hank Smith: 00:30:15 So, it reminds me and both of you will recognize this statement. Check the syllabus, right? When a student comes with a question and I say, “That was in the syllabus.” It’s almost as if the Lord is saying, “Hey, I’ve answered this one already a couple of times. So, go ahead and look in the scriptures.” I like that, Scott.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:30:36 Yeah. That might be interesting. You guys want to hear some stories? Could I just tell some stories?

Hank Smith: 00:30:40 Please do.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:30:41 So, do you want to know what the very first case was that the high council adjudicated or sat in council about? You want to hear this?

Hank Smith: 00:30:51 Was it this specific council?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:30:53 This council two days after they were formed.

John Bytheway: 00:30:57 No kidding. Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:30:58 February 19th, a brother named Curtis Hodges was accused by Brother Ezra Thayer of the following charges. Listen to this. Brother Hodges, when he preached, he taught loudly and incoherently. When people try to correct him, he insisted that his behavior was inspired by a good and proper spirit, but the truth was his behavior was hurting the work of God, and so they convened a council.

Hank Smith: 00:31:27 Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:31:27 This guy, when he starts talking, he starts yelling, and people couldn’t understand what he’s saying. He’s like, “What? The Spirit is inspiring me.” So, the evidence was heard. An eyewitness says, “Yeah, the other day, he was yelling so loudly that some neighbors were alarmed they came out to see if someone was hurt.” Another one was like, “Yeah. Whenever he preaches, he puts a damper on the meeting and it’s not edifying.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:31:53 So, Joseph Smith is listening here to this case, right? At the end, they had the other high councilman who’s supposed to then make sure he’s being treated well, right?

Hank Smith: 00:32:05 “No insults or injustice.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:32:06 “No insult or injustice,” yeah. So, the meeting minutes say that one member of the council tried to speak on behalf of Brother Hodges, but could say but few words.

Hank Smith: 00:32:22 He didn’t get loud. It doesn’t sound like the guy who’s speaking on behalf of Brother Hodges.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:32:28 No. He’s like, “I don’t really have a lot to say.” Then Joseph Smith said, “Well, let me see if I can sum up the evidence.” He gave as his decision that the charges has been fairly sustained by good witnesses, and that Brother Hodges ought to have confessed when he was first rebuked by Brother Thayer and that if he, he said this, “If he had the spirit of the Lord at the meetings when he hallowed, he must have abused it and grieved it away,” and that’s what Joseph said, and all the council agreed with the decision.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:33:02 Brother Hodges, I like this, “He then arose and said that he saw that he was wrong. He’d never seen it before and he appeared to feel thankful that he saw it. He said that he had learned more during this trial than he had since he came in to the Church. He confessed freely his error and said he would attend to overcoming that evil, the Lord being his helper.”

Hank Smith: 00:33:26 Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:33:27 So, that ended really well.

John Bytheway: 00:33:29 That’s a great story.

Hank Smith: 00:33:30 Very first one. It’s a great story.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:33:33 Yeah, a two-councilor case. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:33:35 The Lord gave him a bit of a softball on this first one.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:33:38 A softball. How about this?

Hank Smith: 00:33:39 He said, “Let me pitch this one to you.” It’s quite humorous.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:33:44 Yeah. I don’t know that any high councils are being convened about such things today, but that’s a fun story.

John Bytheway: 00:33:52 He was loud and he was incoherent.

Hank Smith: 00:33:56 My favorite, that witness, that witness, “I was there, your Honor. I heard it.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:03 Yeah. The neighbors came out and they were like, “Who’s hurt?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:07 “Nothing. It’s just Brother Hodges. Brother Hodges is just preaching again.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:10 So, I am so sorry.

John Bytheway: 00:34:13 I love that he said he had learned so much. That is a really nice thing to that humorous story.

Hank Smith: 00:34:18 That is. That is awesome.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:18 Right? Yeah. “I never learned so much in my life since I joined the Church than what I’ve learned here,” in that simple council.

Hank Smith: 00:34:28 What a humble Brother Hodges. That’s awesome.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:31 Okay. Then the next day, you guys want case number two? Then the next day-

Hank Smith: 00:34:36 Wow! This is a busy council.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:38 I mean, yeah. The very next day, so this is two in a row. The question of whether disobedience to the Word of Wisdom, which had just barely been revealed, whether disobedience to the Word of Wisdom was a transgression sufficient to deprive an official member from holding an office in the Church after having it sufficiently tied to him.

Hank Smith: 00:34:57 Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:58 The context was at a Church meeting in Pennsylvania, Orson Pratt and Lyman Johnson were there, and some members refused to partake at the sacrament because the elder administering it did not observe the Word of Wisdom. Lyman said that they’re justified in doing that because the elder is in transgression, but Orson Pratt, he said, “No, the Church is bound to receive the sacrament from an elder so long as he retained his office or his license.” So, the council was like, “Ooh, this is a six-councilor difficulty level.”

John Bytheway: 00:35:30 “Level of difficulty,” yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:35:30 Yeah. So, they all spoke. They heard the evidence, and then Joseph, the president, said that, “No official member in this Church is worthy to hold an office after having the Word of Wisdom properly taught them and then they neglect to comply or obey them.” Everyone sustained it. So, boom! So, day two on the job they’re already, right? So, the first one is a Church disciplinary and this one is more of a what should be the policy, right? So, they’re determining policy as well. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:35:59 Thanks, Scott. Those are both really fascinating stories.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:02 There you go, 102.

Hank Smith: 00:36:03 This is our first council. Correct me if I’m wrong, but our second council is going to be in Missouri or the second high council.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:09 That’s right. We’re going to talk about that later on. That’s right. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:36:13 Okay.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:13 Okay. So, transitioning to Section 103, yeah? Are you guys ready for that?

Hank Smith: 00:36:17 Yes. Let’s go to 103.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:19 All right. So, 103, look at the date. The date is February 24th. We’re just a week after the High Council has been organized, and guess what happens, a difficult case. Another difficult case comes before the High Council. This case is not a disciplinary case. This is a case of, well, let’s just get into the history. So, let’s back up now. Let’s now go to July of 1833. This is on July 20th. That’s when mob violence breaks out against the Saints in Jackson County over in Missouri.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:57 On the 23rd of July, the Church leaders signed an agreement to leave Jackson County, half of them by January, the next half by the next April. Well, then on the 9th of August, Oliver Cowdery arrived in Kirtland to tell Joseph what’s happening. Then on the 31st of October through the 17th of November, that time period, that’s when the hellish actions of the mob break out, where mob violence recommences with satanic vigor and the fleeing saints gather mainly up north in Clay County, Missouri, and Church leaders are sending letters to Joseph Smith saying, “What do we do?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:37:40 Meanwhile, no, not meanwhile, sorry. Go ahead.

Hank Smith: 00:37:45 Now, Scott, if I remember, if I remember right, it’s because we had agreed to leave, but then hired a lawyer in Alexander Doniphan and the rest of his men and they said, “Well, if you’re going to hire a lawyer, that means that you’re going to fight this extradition that’s kicking you out of the county.” So, they picked up the intensity of the persecution because we had actually tried by legal means to stop the ousting, right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:38:15 Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah. So, now they’re seeking guidance, “What do we do?” Right? So, Section 101, which you guys covered last week, was received on the 16th and 17th of December and the Lord gave the Saints guidance and hope, what to do in that situation. That doesn’t make it until January 22nd. So, before section 101 makes it to Missouri, Missouri Church members hold a conference where they determine that they need to send two representatives 900 miles from Missouri back to Kirtland to council with the prophet.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:38:54 So, Parley P. Pratt and Lyman Wight volunteer and according to Parley P. Pratt, he said that the conference instructed him to “Counsel with President Smith and the Church at Kirtland and take some measures for the relief or restoration of the people, thus plundered and driven from their homes.” So, they start off and they make it in Kirtland in February. They make it to Kirtland in February, and this is a day or so, this might be the day they arrive or a day or two after. I can’t remember, but Section 103.

Hank Smith: 00:39:27 Interesting. So, 101 is on its way to Missouri.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:39:31 Yup. They crossed paths. Yup. Yeah. Then when they make it here, Joseph says, “We should convene the high council.” That’s what happens here, right? So, they need to hear what’s happening, and they need to help make some decisions on this. So, here they are. So, let’s paint the picture. So, the high council is first organized on the 17th of February. One week later, now they’re convened. Other members were in attendance, too, just to watch, but the High Council was the hub, and they’re here to hear from Parley P. Pratt and Lyman Wight who had just arrived. They came to ask, “When, how, and by what means Zion was to be redeemed from our enemies?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:40:18 After hearing these men just give their report on the conditions and what was happening, and then to hear that heartfelt question, then Joseph declares his intentions. He stood and declared his intention to travel to Missouri to assist in redeeming Zion. Between 30 and 40 conference attendees volunteered to go with him. So, some time either during that meeting or just after that meeting, Section 103 was received confirming that decision and giving instruction about that.

Hank Smith: 00:40:52 Wow. Scott, I heard this in the way you explained that, but it’s fantastic that the Lord had these men prepared as a council before Parley and Lyman show up as they’re actually on their way, right.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:41:10 That’s right. They’re ready to en route.

Hank Smith: 00:41:12 They’re ready to en route this.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:41:14 Yeah. It’s interesting as well, our listeners might be interested to know, I didn’t know this as I first heard the stories of the Saints being kicked out of Jackson County, Missouri, but when they came to the council, Parley reported that those who had been driven away from their lands and scattered abroad had actually gained the sympathy of many of the people up north in Clay County who were as kind and accommodating to the refugees as could reasonably be expected, he said. From then, “They could obtain food and Raymond in raiment in exchange for their labor and so much that they were comfortable.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:41:51 So, here’s a group of people who’ve been displaced as refugees, but they’ve fallen into a lot of a kind group in Clay County. “Nevertheless,” Parley says, “the idea of being driven away from the land of Zion pained their very souls, and they desired of God by earnest prayer to return to that land with songs of everlasting joy.” So, what can be done? What can be done?

Hank Smith: 00:42:16 It’s interesting that you should say that, Scott, because we usually talk about Quincy, Illinois as the compassionate town, that takes us in, but that’s not going to happen until 1838-1839, fall of 1838, the beginning of 1839. Here in 1833 was another county. You said Clay County that took these refugees in from the south, from Jackson County, and there’s one man in particular, his name was Michael Arthur. If you go there, there’s a monument where they would have called him a “Jack Mormon” at the time because he was helping-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:42:54 -a Mormon sympathizer?

Hank Smith: 00:42:55 Yeah, a Mormon sympathizer, where he allowed, I think it was somewhere around 1,000 Latter-day Saints to live on his property and he hired them to work. I don’t know if they survived without people like Michael Arthur.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:43:10 Yeah. So, it’s not just Missouri, it’s not just full of these wicked, vindictive people, but, yeah, just something about Jackson County. There’s something about that place, but up north, yeah, things were-

Hank Smith: 00:43:23 It’s different, yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:43:24 … were compassionate, yeah. So, I want to read a little bit from the minutes of this. I was just summarizing earlier, but here’s the exact language and watch again how the council interacts here. It says, “Brother Joseph then arose after hearing Parley and Lyman, and he said that he was going to Zion to assist in redeeming it. He then called for the voice of the council to sanction his going, ‘What do you guys think? Is that a wise choice, the prophet throwing himself on their wisdom?’ They all sanctioned without a dissenting voice. He then said, ‘Who will volunteer to go with me?’ Then some 30 or 40 volunteered to go who were then present at the council.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:44:07 Joseph, Jr. was then nominated and seconded to be the commander-in-chief of the armies of Israel and the leader of those who volunteered to go and assist in the redemption of Zion. That decision was then carried by the vote of all present.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:44:23 So, you see the work, how important was the council in this moment, right?

Hank Smith: 00:44:27 Right. Just one week after it’s formed, it’s needed.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:44:31 One week, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:44:32 Absolutely needed.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:44:32 This is their third case. This is their third case. How about that?

Hank Smith: 00:44:36 Level of difficulty just went to the extreme. So, what’s in the verses here? So, somewhere during this meeting is when Section 103 comes?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:44:44 We don’t know from the historical record that we have if it was during the meeting or after the meeting, but look at verse one. In verse one, he calls them my friends, “Verily I say unto you, my friends,” and the Lord uses that phrase in the Doctrine and Covenants when he’s referencing the group of high priests. The high priests are consistently his friends.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:45:04 So, Joseph is still with the people, so is it during the meeting? Is it after the meeting? So, here’s the revelation to know how to act in the discharge of your duties concerning the salvation and redemption of your brethren who’ve been scattered on the land of Zion. He calls those in Jackson County in verse two my enemies. Why has God not intervened on behalf of his people? The reasons he give is verse two and three is the first reason. He says, “You’re driven and smitten by the hands of mine enemies,” or they were, “on whom I will pour out my wrath without measure in mine own due time. For I have suffered them,” that is mine enemies, “thus far, that they might fill up the measure of their iniquities, that their cup might be full.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:45:49 So, reason number one that has allowed this is the wicked need to be allowed to be wicked so that the punishment that comes upon them will be just, right? Maybe we’ll talk about the punishment that comes upon these people in that generation when we talk about Section 105, but mark that.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:46:07 Then verse four he gives the second reason. He says, “Also that those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement.” Why? Well, “because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:46:25 They are not innocent. For sure, the Lord is saying in verse four, “You’re not innocent, actually.” At least there’s enough of you that are not innocent, you must suffer. In fact, there were innocent people who were suffering, and this bothered Joseph Smith. Oliver Cowdery said he was an eyewitness, and then he came to Kirtland and then he wrote a letter back to his friends in Missouri about what they’re experiencing, a letter dated the 10th of August 1833.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:46:52 He said this. He said, “This tribulation would not have come upon Zion had it not been for rebellion.” He said, “Firstly, there were rebellions against the one to whom were entrusted the keys, and from thence, it has spread down to the lowest and least member.” Then he says, “It was necessary that these things should come upon us. Not only justice demands it, but there was no other way to cleanse the Church.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:47:17 That’s how Oliver Cowdery feels about it. The Lord seems to be saying the same thing here, but it bothered Joseph that there were some innocent people in here that suffered. He said, “The only way I can deal with this is the idea that if one part of your body is injured, it’s going to hurt the whole body,” right? That analogy from Paul that we’re all part of the one body of Christ. So, there were some innocent people, for sure, some dedicated consecrated people in Missouri who are suffering because of the disobedience of some others.

Hank Smith: 00:47:47 I was going to say there’s a letter from W. W. Phelps to the prophet and saying, “I know it was right that we should be driven out of the land of Zion that the rebellious might be sent away.” So, there is the feeling there that they know a little bit of what the Lord is talking about when he says, “Some did not hearken to the precepts and commandments which I gave.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:48:11 Yeah. That’s right. So, those are two reasons he gives for why this is happening. One, “So that your enemies may fill up their inequities, so that the punishment that comes upon them will be just,” and two, “Because you need to chastened to be cleansed,” right? The word chastened has that idea in mind. Chastening is intended to cleanse. It means, “To make chaste, to make you pure, to make you clean.” So, that’s the idea.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:48:39 First of all, in verse five, six, and seven, he assures them that, “From this moment on, from this very moment, they will begin to prevail against their enemies by hearkening to observe God’s words, they will never cease to prevail until the kingdoms of the world are subdued under my feet and the earth is given to the saints to possess it forever and ever,” and then he says, “But if you don’t keep my commandments,” verse eight, “and hearken not to observe all my words, then the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:11 This is your do or die here. “You are set to be a light to the world, to be the savior to men, and if you don’t, if you’re not, then you’re that salt that’s lost its savor,” he goes on to say. So, you stay close to me and you cannot fail. Hopefully, you’ve learned your lesson from this and from that lesson you can learn, too, to hearken unto my words, all of them, and you’ll prevail from this point on. The fact that we know they don’t prevail from that point on tells us which way they went historically.

Hank Smith: 00:49:45 Let me make a quick note on verse 10 about the salt of the earth. That’s a very new testament idea, comes from the Sermon on the Mount. The idea was that salt was very valuable because it could preserve meat. So, you could trade salt almost like cash, but if you had dirt in your salt, if you got impurities in your salt, it’s good for nothing. You can’t use it anymore, right? So, it says to be trodden under the foot of men, they would actually use it, dump it out on the roads to suck up all the moisture on the roads from all the humans and the animals around, all the moisture that’s on the ground and it would just be walked on, right? So, the idea is don’t let that impurity into your life.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:50:30 Yeah. This is the same Jesus who spoke in the New Testament. Yeah. Here he is.

John Bytheway: 00:50:34 You’re remembering the Elder Carlos E. Asay quotation where he said in General Conference years ago that salt will not lose its savor with age. It’s only lost through mixture and contamination, and then taught that don’t get mixed up and contaminated. You’re going to lose your savor.

Hank Smith: 00:50:55 Yeah. That’s exactly right.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:50:56 Yeah. One other interesting thing about salt since we’re on the topic is that in the Old Testament, sometimes they would use salt in their covenant making because salt was a symbol of eternity. Sometimes they call it the covenant of salt, which is an everlasting covenant, immutable. When you become my covenant people, then you are considered the salt of the earth. Yeah. Let’s continue, shall we?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:51:17 So, he goes on to instruct them to … He gives perspective in verse 12 and 13 that after much tribulation I said back in Section 58 when you first got to the land of Zion, “After much tribulation cometh the blessing. This is the blessing which I’m promising you, which is your redemption. Your redemption and the redemption of your brethren even,” what he means by that, “is their restoration to the land of Zion,” he says.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:51:46 So, he’s not saying give up on Jackson County, Missouri. He’s saying, “It’s time now to line up your hearts, purify your intentions, follow my words with exactness, and after the tribulation you’ve gone through, it’s time to restore you to the land of Zion.” He called that the redemption of Zion. It needs to come, verse 15, by power. It needs to come by power.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:52:11 “Therefore,” verse 16, “I will raise up a man like Moses who will lead them like the children of Israel for you are the children of Israel. You are the covenant people. You are the seed of Abraham and you need to be let out of bondage by power, and as your fathers, the ancient Israelites were led at first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be …” He’s being pretty dramatic here, right? This is going to be another Exodus story in some ways, right? Bringing them from their state of bondage back into the land of Zion, it’s going to be great.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:52:42 He uses another term in verse 19 and 20. He says, “But for them, I told them that mine angel will go up before you, but not my presence, and in time, you’ll possess the goodly land.” Then he says in verse 21, he says that, “My servant Joseph Smith, Jr., I’m talking to you, he is the man to whom I likened the servant, to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable, which I have given unto you.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:53:06 So, that’s a reference back to D&C 101, verse 55. Remember the parable back there? Let me just jump back for just a second. He gives this parable that the Lord had a very choice land, Lord of a vineyard, some noble man. He told his servants to build a hedge, and then there are 12 trees and build a hedge around it so the enemies couldn’t get through there. They build a tower so they can watch to make sure the trees don’t get corrupted. Then they were like, “Why do we need to build a tower? Everything’s fine. We don’t need a tower.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:53:40 Then the enemies actually come and they break through the hedge, they break down the trees because they didn’t build the tower, and then the noble man is like, “Guys,” verse 52, he’s like, “Why? What is the cause of this great evil? Ought you not to have done even as I commanded you?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:53:59 They’re like, “Yeah. We probably should have done what you told us to. Now, we see the consequences,” right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:54:04 Then he says, jump to verse 55, he says that the Lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants, “Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of my house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of my house,” and take them and I want you, verse 57, to go, “Straightway unto my land, break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen.” We’re going to take this land back. This is a pretty thinly veiled parable, right?

Hank Smith: 00:54:39 I wonder what he’s talking about here.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:54:43 What could he be talking about here? In line with recent events, then in verse 103 he’s saying, “Joseph Smith, you’re the man whom I liken to that servant who should gather the strength of my house.” That’s what he says in verse 22. “Therefore, let my servant Joseph Smith, Jr.,” we’re now back in section 103, “Say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged–Gather yourselves together to the land of Zion, upon the land which I had bought with money that has been consecrated to me. And let all the churches, round about all the churches, all the branches of the church, let them send up wise men with their moneys and purchase lands even as I have commanded them.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:55:21 He’s actually repeating what he said in Section 101. There are two ways you’re going to get Zion back. One, strength of my house is built up, the young men and the middle age. You’re going to go as an armed force to take this land back. Number two, you’re going to purchase the land legally, right? So, that’s an odd thing. So, we’re going to go take it by military force or we’re going to buy it in an upstanding business-like way.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:55:46 Well, it turns out that the purpose of the military force was simply to ensure that those who had been kicked out could be brought back safely. There was actually, Joseph will later tell us, no intention in any way to fight unless they absolutely had to. It was just to be there so that the innocent could come back.

Hank Smith: 00:56:07 Bodyguards, right? Bodyguards will walk them back in, escort them back in.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:56:10 That’s right. That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:56:12 Didn’t Governor Dunklin gave them some positive reinforcement at some point?

Hank Smith: 00:56:16 Totally. He was going to, right?

John Bytheway: 00:56:18 Right.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:56:19 Yeah. So, the governor, Daniel Dunklin is his name, he, according to some notes here in the History of the Church says that Governor Dunklin, “Manifested a willingness to restore us back if we will request it.” In February of 1834, the governor reiterated his position in a formal reply saying that he’s willing to do that. He fully recognized that the Mormons had a right to organize a military body. He said, “Indeed, it’s your duty to do so.” So, the governor says that the Mormons, obviously, have a right to the land and you obviously got a right to then organize a military body. In fact, you’ve got a duty to do that.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:57:02 He agreed to meet with them with some state militia and with their forces combined they would peacefully escort those who had been kicked out of their land back to their land. That was the plan. So, yeah. So, they felt like they have the backing of the governor of the state of Missouri. So, they felt like their own solid ground, right?

Hank Smith: 00:57:22 Scott, you had mentioned that they’re going to use more money to buy land, but they had already purchased some, right? They had already purchased 2,000 acres or somewhere around that.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:57:31 That’s right. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:57:33 That had just been taken, right? Someone just pushed you off and taken your land.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:57:38 I think 203 homes had been totally deroofed or destroyed, burned. Yeah. In fact, when some people in Missouri hear that the Mormons are coming to get their land back and there was all kinds of inflated stories of the numbers and their intentions and what oaths they were shouting out, what they were going to do to the Missourians and stuff like that, none of which was true, but in panic, they went and tried to basically destroy everything else that was there so that they wouldn’t want it back. I mean, they were just intent on keeping the Mormons out. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:58:15 The Lord is basically giving them a full speed ahead, right? Let’s organize this military group and then let’s keep all the wise, he calls them wise men in verse 23, “Let the wise men with their moneys come and purchase lands even as I have commanded them.” Let’s buy the lands so that the Missourians who are there can be justly compensated. If they want to leave, they can leave. We’ll buy their lands from them.

Hank Smith: 00:58:42 Buy our own land back?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:58:44 No, no. Buy more lands so that those who hate us don’t have to live by us. We’ll buy your house. How about that?

Hank Smith: 00:58:49 Got it.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:58:50 We’ll give you just compensation. Yeah. So, in fact, when they actually get there, I’m jumping ahead a little bit here, but when they actually get there, there’s a little meeting with some from the Jackson County side and with Joseph Smith and some of the leaders, and they decided that 12 people should be chosen, six by the Mormons and six by those in Jackson County, totally neutral parties, and those 12 people should go in and evaluate the worth of the land of the Mormons and the worth of the land of the Jackson County people who are still there, and then they would agree.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:59:32 Joseph Smith said, “What we’re going to do is we would, if you’ll give us one year, we’ll buy all the lands from the Missourians. If they don’t want to live by us, we’ll buy their lands in one year’s time. So, if we can have these neutral parties assess the worth of those properties, we’ll go in and buy it within a year’s time. We don’t want war. That’s our last resort. We just want to live peaceably and lawfully in this land that we ought to live.”

Hank Smith: 00:59:57 “… which we bought.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:59:59 “We bought it with our money and we’re willing to buy your land that we haven’t bought yet. We just want to live in that spot. We have really important reasons to do so.” So, yeah, that’s where this is going. That’s what verse 23 is referencing. In Section 105, we’ll mention it again. So, we’re just maybe getting a little bit ahead, but this is all going to be taught in the same lessons. You could cross reference back and forth, but that’s what that’s all about.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:00:20 So, the Lord promises them that, “Those who curse them will be cursed, and my presence will go with you and I’ll avenge you of my enemies under the third and fourth generation.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:00:32 Then verse 27, this is a touching, interesting verse. He said, 27 and 28, “Let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake.” You might gulp at that point if you’re being recruited for this mission. “For whoso layeth down his life my sake shall find it again.” There’s a nice new testament, Matthew 16, right? “My disciples need to be willing to lay down their life.” Remember he says, “If you lose your life for my sake, then you’ll find it.” Verse 28, “Who so is not willing to lay down his life for my sake is not my disciple.”

Hank Smith: 01:01:10 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.