John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:00:08 What’s interesting, as they start to go out to recruit, in fact, that’s what verses 29, 30, and then all of verse 37, 38, 39, 40, the Lord puts them in companionships of recruiting companionships. There’s eight men that are going to go out and recruit people for this expedition. They’ll call it the Camp of Israel. Later on, we call it Zion’s Camp, but they originally called it the Camp of Israel. And in their recruiting, they came across one Wilford Woodruff. He was already a member of the Church, but he was being recruited to join this expedition.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:00:45 And I want to just share a thought from Wilford Woodruff. He said this, he said that as he was settling his business affairs and preparing to join the Camp of Israel, some of his friends and neighbors warned him not to undertake such a hazardous journey. They said, “Do not go. If you do, you will lose your life.” And that’s the exact phrase that the Lord just said here, “Lose your life for my sake, or lay down your life.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:01:15 Here’s how Wilford Woodruff replied. He said, “If I knew that I should have a ball put through my heart the first step I took in the state of Missouri, I would go.” That’s discipleship right there, the Lord says. You know that Wilford is a disciple, verse 28, according to those standards. And so I like that story to tell in verse 27, 28.

Hank Smith: 00:01:44 And he had just joined the Church, is that just the following December? I have it written here, I’ll just mention this, and Wilford had just joined the Church December 31st, 1833. And here, this is just a couple of months later.

John Bytheway: 00:02:00 How old was he, Hank? Because in that movie, Mountain Of The Lord, he looks pretty young.

Hank Smith: 00:02:05 And I want to note here, Scott, that Wilford Woodruff was baptized December 31st, 1833, he’s just 26-, 27-years-old, and a new convert of, what, four or five months, and he’s ready to put his life on the line there.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:02:21 The Lord says, “You want to know what discipleship looks like? That’s what it looks like.”

Hank Smith: 00:02:25 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:02:26 That’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:02:27 Wilford Woodruff.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:02:29 Yeah. I wonder if he ever amounts to anything in the Church.

Hank Smith: 00:02:36 What ever happened to that guy?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:02:37 That’d be an interesting story to follow, maybe pick up that thread. Now, the Lord says, in terms of numbers, he would prefer 500, he says in verse 30. And if he can’t do 500, then 300, if he can’t do 300, then 100, and if he can’t do 100, don’t go. He says at least 100, but 500 would be awesome, that would be my recommendation.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:03:07 And so they go out recruiting, so 205 men, 10 women, and six children. So that’s going to be what they ultimately get. They’re going to leave, so Hyrum Smith and his group, they go up actually to Michigan to recruit up there. They get about 20 people and Joseph Smith and those in the Kirtland area get about 85, and then they start marching together to meet, they’ll meet together in Missouri on June 8th.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:03:39 So they’re so they’re recruiting all along the way until they’ve… The biggest it gets then is, yeah, 205 men, 10 women, and six children. Now, if you want a verse to cross stitch and put on your wall, you want a little handout to give to the youth, verse 36 is just so good.

Hank Smith: 00:04:02 36, yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:04:03 Yeah. John, you want to read it?

John Bytheway: 00:04:05 It’s marked, yeah. “All victory and glory is brought to pass unto you through your diligence, faithfulness and prayers of faith.” That’s a good cross stitch.

Hank Smith: 00:04:16 That is a good cross stitch

John Bytheway: 00:04:19 There’s people listening, saying, “What’s cross stitch?”

Hank Smith: 00:04:23 That was awesome. I love the image of Joseph Smith standing up in the meeting saying, “I’m going to Zion, is it a good idea?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:04:30 They’re like, “Yes.”

Hank Smith: 00:04:31 “It’s a good idea, who will go with me?”

John Bytheway: 00:04:33 Who’s with me?

Hank Smith: 00:04:35 Yeah. It’d be funny to vote, “Yes, it’s a good idea, will you go?”

John Bytheway: 00:04:43 I have bought some land, I have bought some oxen, I have to prove them, I have married a wife.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:04:51 Yeah. “You might die,” verse 27 and 28 say. You could ,could die. Who’s still with me? And that’s amazing, that they have 200 and, how many does that add up to, 215 plus 6, 221-

Hank Smith: 00:05:03 221 people.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:05 221 people that are willing to lay down their lives the gospel’s sake, for Zion’s sake in this instance.

Hank Smith: 00:05:13 Right.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:13 Wow. So this Section 104, it fits in the context here, because the issue is what to do about the United Firm. The United Firm, some of your listeners may recall Section 78 commanded its creation, Section 82 is the day that it happened in Missouri. It was the uniting of the Kirtland leaders and the Missouri leaders in a united financial group that would oversee the printing of Church publications, holding Church properties in trust, assisting the poor, it’s basically the first corporate management system of the financial corporate management of the Church.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:05:57 We’re talking about primarily three places. We’re talking about the Sydney Gilbert and Whitney store in Missouri, a dry goods store, a mercantile shop, and then we have the W. W. Phelps & Companies Print Shop in Missouri also, that was the Literary Firm that produced scripture. And then the third major player was back in Kirtland, which was the Newel K Whitney Mercantile Store, and they were moneymakers for the Church. Well, what happens when a mob destroys the printing press in Missouri and the dry goods store in Missouri, what kind of a United Firm do you have left? You just got the Kirtland store.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:06:44 And so they actually got together on April 10th, they, the United firm, those that could meet, and they voted, “We dissolve the Firm.” It’s two years old by this point. And so section 104 is the Lord basically ratifying that decision, that’s a good idea, on the 23rd of April. So this is now, they met on the 10th, now on the 23rd, the Lord is ratifying and saying, “Let me tell you how I feel about that.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:07:14 He takes this opportunity to teach. And he says, “Now, the reason why an adjustment to the firm needs to take place is because,” here he goes, “This was intended,” verse one, “to be an everlasting Firm.” Every time you see the word Order in this section, you can just cross that out and write the word Firm, that was just a pseudonym put in later to disguise the fact that this was anything about finances so the enemies of the Church who wanted to litigate wouldn’t know to come after that.

Hank Smith: 00:07:45 United Firm, United Order, same thing.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:07:48 He says, “This was meant to be an everlasting order with a promise,” verse two, “Immutable and unchangeable, that as long as you were faithful, you would receive a multiplicity of blessings, but if not faithful, then they were nigh unto cursing.” He says, “But in as much,” verse three, “But in as much as they were not faithful, they were nigh unto cursing. Therefore, in as much as some of my servants,” you know who you are, it was Sydney Gilberts and it was W. W. Phelps, “have not kept the commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetousness and with feigned words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:08:26 “And I have decreed in my heart that in as much as any man belonging to the Order shall be found a transgressor or breaks the covenant, that he will be cursed in his life and will be trodden down.” This is pretty strong language. “I, the Lord, I’m not to be mocked in these things.” The Lord is as merciful as the day is long, but when he’s dealing with covenant breakers who are consistently repeated offenders here, this is who he’s talking to here. Let me give you some context on what he means by covetousness and feigned words.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:08:58 I actually have a little excerpt from a letter, that on the 14th of January 1833, not quite a year earlier, Kirtland leaders wrote this letter to Edward Partridge about a letter that we don’t have a copy of, as far as I know, that Sydney Gilbert had written them in December. I guess it was pretty snarky. He said things. This is the words we have. It says, “Brother Sydney Gilbert’s letter of December 10th has been received and read attentively, and the low dark and blind insinuations which were in, it were not received by us as from the fountain of light.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:09:39 Though his claims and pretensions to holiness were great, we are not unwilling to be chastened or rebuked for our faults, but we just want to receive it in language we can understand. Like Nathan said today, ‘But thou art the man,’ just tell us what you have against us, no insinuations and dark innuendo here.” They said, “We are aware that Brother Gilbert is doing much and a multitude of business on hand, but let him purge out the old leaven and do his business in the spirit of the Lord and the Lord will bless him, otherwise, the frown of the Lord will remain upon him.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:10:16 And then they say this, “There is manifestly an uneasiness in Brother Gilbert and a fearfulness that God will not provide for his saints in their last days, and these fears lead him on to covetousness. This ought not so to be. But let him do just as the Lord has commanded him, and then the Lord will open his coffers and his wants will be liberally supplied. But if this uneasy, covetous disposition be cherished by him, the Lord will bring him to poverty, shame and disgrace.” Wow. That’s a rebuke

Hank Smith: 00:10:53 Uneasy covetousness, disposition.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:10:57 You don’t want one of those.

John Bytheway: 00:10:58 And that letter, that is a response to a letter from Sydney Gilbert, and who wrote that letter?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:11:04 So this was written, it says from Kirtland Church leaders to Edward Partridge, who is the leader over in Missouri. And they’re just saying, “Listen, the letter we got from Sydney Gilbert, that was not becoming of a member of the United Firm, that’s not how it should go.” So covetousness and feigned words. Phelps had also said things like, “Well, what are you going to do with my press and my printing stuff?” And Joseph Smith said, “Ooh, my stuff? Whose press is that, William? Is it not the Lord’s press? How did you come to have that press? Careful that you don’t forget that this is because of the consecration of the Saints.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:11:50 And so you can see… So human nature is just getting woven in here. And the Lord is saying, “You want to know why the United Firm needs to be dissolved? Well, it’s because that kind of stuff has crept in.” What lessons might there be for us as we think about covenant breaking? The Lord is serious, especially when it’s repeated, you’ve been warned again and again by leaders. This is over a year earlier, they’re warning him to repent of this kind of thing, and he clearly did not. And so the Lord’s stepping it up a little bit in intensity here, isn’t he?

Hank Smith: 00:12:20 I think this is a good gut check for all of us. Watch out for that covetous disposition that can just ruin things in your life. And the other part of this, Scott, that I’m hearing is, I like that these men were very human and that they said things sometimes they shouldn’t have said. I’m hoping Sydney Gilbert repents here and comes around.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:12:48 He reminds them of how this system is supposed to work. Verses 11 through 18 remind us the outline, the principles that should undergird or that do undergird the Lord’s system of stewardship that we should remember. For instance, we could highlight quickly verse 14, “Remember that all things in the earth that God built are mine,” he says. “It is my purpose to provide for my saints,” he repeats it again, “for all things are mine. It must, needs to be done in my own way. And behold, this is the way that I, the Lord have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted and that the rich are made low.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:13:31 “The Lord invites those who’ve been blessed with abundance to help the poor rise and thrive. And it’s without compulsion. And when the rich withhold their goods, Zion suffers.” And the Lord is going to talk more about that as we go on in Section 105. But that’s all along the way. It’s covetousness, it’s selfishness, it’s thinking me, my, me, my, me, my, and the Lord’s saying, “Remember, it’s mine and you are a steward, you are a steward, you are a steward.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:14:03 “Nevertheless,” verse 17, “the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves. Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart, not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, to the poor and the needy, he shall with a wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.” You can totally choose what you want to do with the abundance I have given you, but listen, this is my way. If you are my covenant people, I am asking you to give of your abundance which you got from me to help exalt the poor, help build Zion.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:14:45 And it seems like that lesson just has not sunk in and has not sunk in and has not sunk in. That’s caused problems in Missouri, in their expulsion, and now it’s causing the end of the United Firm, is what’s happening here.

Hank Smith: 00:14:59 I think the end of verse 18, that’s a direct reference to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, he just wouldn’t even give a Lazarus the crumb off his table. Lazarus just wanted the crumbs from the table, and he said, “No, I’m not going to give it to you.” It’s a fantastic parable. And this seems to be a lesson, you’re right, Scott, he’s saying over and over again, selfishness will destroy Zion.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:15:25 Yeah, it hasn’t sunk in yet, apparently

John Bytheway: 00:15:27 It’s hard not to read this and point fingers at ourselves. That’s a good application of this. Am I like this? Because I always look at them and think they had less than we do now.

Hank Smith: 00:15:42 It’s easy also, John, to look at people who have more than me and say, “Yeah, they should be giving.” I hope so-and-so reads this verse.

John Bytheway: 00:15:52 You know who really needs those verse. Not me of course, but– 

Hank Smith: 00:15:58 Not me, yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:16:00 I’m fine, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:16:01 I’m doing great.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:16:02 So we don’t want to go through all of 104 in, I think, all the details. Let me summarize a few things, and then if listeners want to dig deeper, I think they should. Verses 19 through 46 is one big section where the Lord says, “Listen, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to distribute the Kirtland properties that were managed by the United Firm as personal stewardships to members of the firm in Kirtland.” And he goes through each person in the firm and he says, “This is your stewardship, this is your stewardship, and if you do well, you…” Let’s see, he repeats over and over again. He says, “This will be your stewardship under which you shall be appointed unto them, and in as much as they are faithful, I will bless and multiply blessings upon them.” He says that over and over after each stewardship. You be faithful, and you’re going to get blessed abundantly.

Hank Smith: 00:16:54 I’m seeing the names here, Scott, Sidney Rigdon, verse 20, Martin Harris, John Johnson, Frederick Williams, Oliver Cowdery, 28, Newel K. Whitney, 39. So he’s just distributing out what is left to the individuals.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:17:12 That’s right. And this is going to be your stewardship, it’s in your own personal name, but remember whose it is. And he’s giving them back things like the property you live on, like Newel K. Whitney, verse 39, “Have appointed unto him the houses and  lot where he now resides. . . .” That’s now your stewardship, the place you’re living in, also your store and things that he was already interested in and already had some stewardship over. This is now just officially dissolving the ties with Missouri.

Hank Smith: 00:17:49 I wouldn’t be a good friend to my friend, Juliet Sorensen, who’s serving in Kirtland if I didn’t point out the ashery in verse 39. If you go on a tour to old Kirtland, do you can see the ashery. And it made them quite a bit of money.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:18:05 It was one of the few business ventures that actually was profitable for them.

Hank Smith: 00:18:10 Yeah. And so Juliet, that one is for you.

John Bytheway: 00:18:14 That’s so cool. And that’s how my children pronounce their oldest sister’s name for a long time. Ashley, they pronounced “Ashery” for a long time

Hank Smith: 00:18:23 Hey, I’m glad, that that’s a nice little tie in there, John.

John Bytheway: 00:18:26 Yeah, if you’ve been to Kirtland, that’s fun to tour that. And they made soap there, right Hank?

Hank Smith: 00:18:30 Yeah, they made the potash, which they could sell.

John Bytheway: 00:18:33 Potash.

Hank Smith: 00:18:33 Yeah, the potash.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:18:35 Potash. Yeah. So then verse 47 through 53 is where the Lord officially dissolves the United Firm. Look at verse 53, he says, well, sadly, verse 52, “The covenant being broken through transgression, by covetousness and feigned words—Therefore, you are dissolved as a united order.”

Hank Smith: 00:18:56 Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:18:57 Verse 48, he says, “Let’s have a United Order, or United Firm, of the Stake of Zion, the City of Kirtland,” And let’s have a total separate one called the United Firm of the City of Zion. So that ends right there, the joint association of the Firm. Verses 54 to 59 just reviews, again, some of the principles and purposes for their stewardships.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:19:20 My favorite is in 59, this is kind of a cool perspective about scripture, look at this, “If you want to know how the Lord feels about printing scripture and why he thinks that it’s worth the funds that it takes to print scripture,” listen to what he says here, he says that, in verse 58, he’s talking about, “Print my words, the fullness of my scriptures.” The revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants we’ve been talking about, He says, verse 59, Here’s why. “For the purpose of building up my church and the kingdom on the earth and to prepare my people for the time when I shall dwell with them, which is nigh at hand.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:19:54 I don’t know how often I think about scriptures as the instruments that God has given us to help prepare for his Second Coming, the instruments God has given us to build the Church and the kingdom of God on earth. It is a one by one thing that the scriptures do within our own hearts, helping us become pure. But then there’s also this aggregate thing happening as the 11 of the scriptures continues to influence us. It’s preparing for Jesus to return, and Jesus thinks that’s worth the investment, to get scriptures out to people. And that’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:20:27 Yeah, that is beautiful. And the amount of scripture we print today.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:20:32 Oh, man.

Hank Smith: 00:20:33 Yeah. It’s just astronomical. Can you imagine showing these men, these people, Jill Smith’s time, the hundreds of millions of copies of the Book of Mormon that had been printed?

John Bytheway: 00:20:45 In 120 languages of whatever it is.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:20:50 And now we’re giving them out for free. We’re giving them out for free to anyone who wants a copy. That speaks to the consecration of enough saints today, that we’re seeing the impact. When you consecrate, look how God-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:21:03 –Seeing the impact when you consecrate, look how God can build Zion through the consecration of the many members. I mean, it’s phenomenal, what’s happening to them. Yeah. Verses 60 to 77, Command the establishment of two treasuries, one for printing scripture specifically, and one treasury for all other proceeds from their stewardships, the different farms or the Newell K Whitney Store, et cetera. And then, verses 78 through 86 gives counsel on how to get out of debt.

Hank Smith: 00:21:34 That instruction to pay all your debts reminded me of Section 19. When Martin Harris was told, “Pay the debt thou has contracted with the printer, or at least I sell from bondage,” and this is kind of interesting to see. Scott, I’ve heard you share something before about debt from prophets more in our time that I thought would be helpful for our listeners.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:21:57 So yeah, let’s get some perspective on debt. Not all of it is, you got to get rid of it all right now. For instance, Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, he said that some debts, such as for a modest home, expenses for education, perhaps for a needed first car, may be necessary. President Hinckley said that, “In the financial operations of the Church, we’ve observed two basic and fixed principles.” Pres Hinckley said, “One, the Church will live within its means. It will not spend more than it receives, Two, a fixed percentage of the income will be set aside to build reserves against what might be called a possible “rainy day.” For years, the Church has taught its membership the principle of setting aside a reserve of food, as well as money to take care of emergency needs that might arise. We are only trying to follow the same principle for the Church as a whole.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:22:50 So yeah, you might need some debt to begin with. This particular scenario that the Lord’s talking about with them is different than, I think, most of us are going to find ourselves in. But I think the general principle does apply, let’s live within our means, let’s pay off our debts when that makes sense, and we can do that right without harming our families and follow the overall example of the Church in living within our means and setting aside some savings for a rainy day.

Hank Smith: 00:23:22 So, Scott, I noticed that Section 104 is received in April, Section 105 is received in June. And I’m guessing a lot happens between April and June. So you tell us what happens.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:23:37 Yes. I don’t know if you can hear if my microphone just caught, when you said that there was a thunderclap, that just happened outside my window right here, there’s rain on the window, and the thunder. And I think that’s perfect to talk about a Section 105. So let me give you the timeline here. On the 5th of May, they’ve done the majority of their recruiting at home and up in Michigan, and Zion camp leaves Kirtland. They’re on their way to Missouri to go help the saints who were displaced to get back to the lands that they rightfully own. And this is America, right? We should… And the Governor Dunklin’s like, “There is no way anyone can argue that’s not your property. You have every right to it, and I will help you. The militia of the state, militia, meets you and we’ll help your people get in there.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:24:35 So they’re going to march from May 5th to June 22nd. And this is going to be a long march. This is going to be almost 900 miles. I think it’s 880, and they’re not very well-prepared in terms of food and rations. There’s going to be a lot of hot days, a lot of blistered feet, a lot of hungry people, a lot of dehydration, a lot of rancid food. And this is going to test the mettle of the people. It’s going to test Joseph, the prophet, George A. Smith, Joseph’s cousin. He was a teenager on this camp, and he said that when Heber C. Kimball invited Joseph to ride in the wagon because he’s the prophet, “Come ride in the wagon with me”. Joseph would say, “No, thank you.” And he would walk along 20 to 40 miles a day, along with everybody else. He had blistered feet along with everybody else. He was eating the food, drinking the water, and experiencing the low rations.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:25:34 And I think this is testing everybody. It’s testing their patience it’s testing their resolve, it’s testing some of their faith and Joseph Smith, the prophet. William E. McLellin when he apostatized, he’ll be one of the original Twelve Apostles who will leave the Church he’s going to cite one of the reasons he left the Church was because he didn’t believe that our Lord was a man of war. And that when Joseph did this Zion’s Camp expedition, that was evidenced that he was a fallen prophet because he was being war-like. People are going to have some assumptions, they’re going to be violent as they’re watching this unfold. And yet at the very same time, some people are going to have their faith deeply, richly strengthened, and they’re going to come out of this polished and ready for the Lord’s work to take on the next level of responsibility.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:26:24 So this is the 18th of June. Let me tell you a story about lightning and thunder, this is awesome. So on the 18th of June, the Zion’s camp arrived within a mile of Richmond, which was the county seat of Ray County, which is near Jackson County. As the army is camping there, the prophet had a premonition of danger. He went into the woods, prayed for safety, and was assured that the Lord would protect them. He then had the camp roused in the early morning hours, and they left without prayers or breakfast. As they marched through Richmond, a slave woman said to them, “There’s a company of men lying in wait here who are calculated to kill you this morning, as you pass through,” which would be creepy, right? But as they pressed through, nothing happened. Instead of reaching their intended destination of Liberty, they camped just inside Clay County that night, alert, right on the lookout.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:27:19 There had been stories circulating in Jackson County and the counties nearby that the Mormons were coming with 2000 men, and they were going to come and wipe them out. And they were saying that the men were going to be killed, and the women were going to be made their slaves, and all kinds of stuff that they’re not saying, but they’re just these inflammatory stories. But people are getting whipped up into a frenzy like, “We’re not going to let that happen, are we? No!” And so they’re ready to take the Mormons on. Meanwhile, Joseph’s fears are confirmed that something’s up when five armed Missourians ride into camp, cursing and swearing, and they said, “The Mormons are going to see hell before morning.” Can I say that on the podcast?

Hank Smith: 00:28:04 Yeah, you can say that. It’s a quote.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:28:05 That was a quote. They boasted that nearly 400 men had joined forces from Ray, Lafayette, Clay, and Jackson counties. And they were then preparing to cross the Missouri river at Williams Ferry and utterly destroy the Mormons. Sounds of gunfire were heard off in the distance and some of the men wanted to fight, some of the camp of Israel were like, “Let’s do it! This is why we came.” But the prophet, he promised that the Lord would protect them. He declared… I love this. He says, “Stand still and see the salvation of God.” A few minutes after the Missourians left, a small little black cloud appeared in the clear Western sky. It moved eastward, unrolled like a scroll, and filled the heavens with darkness. As the first ferry load of mobbers started crossing the Missouri river to the south, a sudden storm made it nearly impossible for the boat to return to pick up another load.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:29:01 The storm was so intense. The record says that Zion’s Camp, they abandoned their tents. They find shelter in an old Baptist meeting house, and Joseph, he exclaims, “Boys, there is some meaning to this. God is in this storm.” It was impossible for anyone to sleep so they sang hymns, just pouring like crazy. And they’re singing in this old Baptist church and all outside is, he says, “During this time, the whole canopy of the wide horizon was in one complete blaze with terrifying claps of thunder.” The mobbers were scrambling to find refuge, and this storm broke branches from trees, destroyed crops, it soaked and made all the mobbers’ ammunition useless.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:29:44 It frightened and scattered their horses, raised the level of the river that they were trying to ford to come and take out the Mormons. Almost 40 feet in a half hour, it just “boom!” It prevented them from attacking Zion’s Camp. The prophet recalled, in his history, it says, “It seemed as if the mandate of vengeance had gone forth from the God of Battles, to protect his servants from the destruction of their enemies.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:30:11 My favorite is two days later, Colonel Scotts from the enemy’s army, rides into Zion’s camp to learn about the Mormon’s intentions. And he says to Joseph, after that storm, he said, “I see that there is an Almighty power that protects this people. And the prophet then explains that, “The only purpose of Zion’s camp is just to help our brother and be reinstated in their lands. We don’t have any ill intentions. We don’t intend to hurt anybody. The evil reports that are circulating about us are false. They’re trying to get people whipped up to come against us to destroy us.” After hearing that, Scotts and his companions were so affected by the stories of the unjust trials and suffering of the Saints, they actually then promised to use their influence to offset the feelings against the Mormons, which is…

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:30:59 So that’s the day before the 22nd, which is, you’ll notice in this chapter or the section heading, June 22nd is when this revelation is received. So what happens that causes the revelation to come about? Well, they get some bad news. They get bad news that Governor Daniel Dunklin has reneged on his agreement to support the army, to bring out any of his militia, to help escort the scattered saints back home to their property. And that’s devastating news, right? Because now it’s just them, 200 of them, 221, and there’s sounds like hundreds of others on the opposing side. So this is a great disappointment that the governor has withdrawn his promise to support the saints. And it was in the midst of that that it was counseled together. “What should we do?”, Joseph inquires of the Lord in section 105 is the result. So that’s the backstory.

Hank Smith: 00:32:09 Any reason why that happens? Maybe just political maneuvering?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:32:13 Yeah. The reason that happens, according to something I was reading on Joseph Smith Papers about this, recently, it said that Governor Dunklin saw the writing on the wall. He saw that people in Jackson county and Ray county, they were a little fanatical. They were crazy. They convinced themselves of the stories that they’d heard about the saints, and they were thirsty for blood. And Governor Dunklin felt like if we do this, this is going to lead to a bloodbath. Yeah. This is going to lead to a civil war right here in Missouri. This is not going to be a peaceable experience. And so I think his judgment was, this is not the time for anyone to be walking into Jackson county with guns. Even the state militia, as long as the members of the Church are there, that’s going to be provocative.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:33:12 And so I think his thought was, “Let’s forestall violence.” In all fairness to Governor Dunklin, he doesn’t seem to be a flake. He seems to be a concerned governor. But now they’re there. So now what do they do? They’ve walked 880 miles. They go up north about 10 or 20 miles to a member of the Church’s farm there, near Fishing River. And Section 105 is received there. So now, Joseph is asking the Lord, “What do we do now?” And it’s actually 105 is the response. So verses 1 through 15, it gives the Lord’s first reason why Zion is not going to be redeemed right now, and then verses 16 and 17 give the second. So let’s look at verses one through 15.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:34:08 The first reason the Lord says that Zion is not going to be redeemed right now is because… Verse two, here it is again, “Behold, I say unto you. Were it not for the transgressions of my people speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might’ve been redeemed even now.” What does that mean? “Speaking concerning the church and not individuals.” That’s fascinating. And there’s a phrase I want to use, the phrase corporate blessings, would that make sense? Corporate blessings require a corporate obedience. Meaning, if God’s going to bless an entire people, it’s going to take the unified, cooperative effort, and obedience of the entire people. Yeah, a few people can mess it up, right? I don’t know what the exact critical mass is to mess up the corporate blessing, but whatever that threshold is, they’ve crossed it. And the Lord said… I’m not talking about any particular person and I’m talking about it collectively. So the Lord is saying here that you still haven’t learned lesson number one, which is to learn to impart of your substance as becoming saints.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:35:18 And then surprisingly, he says… I’m not just talking about Missouri. This is interesting. Look at this. In verse seven, “I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under condemnation; But I speak concerning my churches abroad. …” Those outside of Missouri as well. And not just those in Kirtland, but those who are scattered out little branches”, he says. “There are many who will say: Where is their God? Behold, he will deliver them in the time of trouble, otherwise, we will not go up to Zion, and we will keep our moneys.” People are waiting for God to deliver them, to decide whether or not they’re going to truly consecrate. Once we see that the Zion project is fully underway, then we’ll contribute our moneys.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:09 The Lord saying, “That is backwards. That’s actually hindering the cause”. Therefore, he says, “In consequence of the transgressions of my people, it is expedient in me that my elders should wait for a little season for the redemption of Zion.” So this is a corporate beyond Missouri corporate, we’re talking the whole Church. He’s asked them time and time again, Section 101 most recently, to give up their moneys to help purchase lands in Zion. And that in combination with Zion’s camp, would help bring about the redemption of Zion. But the money didn’t come, and we only got some volunteers. That’s the reason number two.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:36:47 In verse 16, he says, “I have commanded my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., to say unto the strength of my house, even my warriors, my young men, my middle-aged, to gather together for the redemption of my people, to throw down the towers of my enemies, and scatter their watchmen; But the strength of mine house have not hearkened unto my words.” Well, they only got 221. That’s not enough. So two reasons Zion is not going to be redeemed right now: the various branches of the Church, number one, have not learned to consecrate their money as I asked them to do. And Zion can’t be redeemed until the body of saints as a whole learn to impart other substance. And then problem number two, there wasn’t a sufficient number of young and middle-aged men who responded to the call to come to redeem Zion as I asked them to do. He doesn’t even mention Governor Dunklin at all, which is interesting. But that was the impetus that got them to ask the question. But the Lord doesn’t even mention him in any way here.

Hank Smith: 00:37:48 So Scott I’m hearing no consecration, no unity. There’s no consecration and there’s no unity, and Zion can’t be built without consecration and without unity. I think that’s almost the definition, right? Consecrated, united people and…

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:38:04 Oh, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:38:07 And they’ve got neither.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:38:08 And you can’t get Zion’s blessings without being Zion people. You can’t get Zion’s blessings without living the love of Zion. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:38:19 So it’s almost as if, “Listen, Zion is waiting for you. It’s ready. I’m ready when you’re ready to be a Zion people. Zion is ready to be built, but for now we don’t have enough people who are in.” Right?

John Bytheway: 00:38:36 It’s an important discussion because we can always talk about, yeah, we were persecuted and this happened to us, and this happened to us, but what is the Lord actually saying? I think that’s… I liked the way you put that Scott here are the reasons, and they were internal. They were us. Saying us as if I’m a member of the Church with them back then, but we brought some of this upon ourselves.

Hank Smith: 00:39:03 And it’s the same thing today. Wouldn’t you think it’s the same thing today, both of you? Zion is waiting for us, as a Church, ready for us to be united and consecrated people. And it’ll happen.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:39:17 Now, what does that look like in 2021? And what corporate blessings will require corporate obedience and consecration. I mean, the Lord says that, basically, he’s ready when we are, for whatever that will look like and have that.

Hank Smith: 00:39:31 And what we need is the people who are willing to put all the chips, in no matter what, right? Yeah. I’m in. I’m here with you.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:39:38 I mean, listen to section… Just to jump back to Section 101, verse 75. Let’s see what the Lord said back in December. He said, “There is even now, already in store, sufficient, ye, even an abundance to redeem Zion and establish her waste places. No more to be thrown down where the churches who call themselves after my name, willing to hearken to my voice.” Yikes, right? So there’s enough there, the Lord keeps saying. And he’s not giving up on Zion, but he’s telling them here that, like you said, John, it’s internal, and they’ve got some work to do. In fact, that’s the solution. He actually gives a solution here and he gives two solutions. So there’s two problems, and there’s two solutions. Solution number one is in verse 9 and 10, the Lord says… I’ll just summarize these solutions as education and an endowment.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:40:32 Those are the two solutions. So verse 9 and 10 talk about education. The Lord says that both the elders and my people need to be taught more perfectly, have experience, and know more perfectly concerning their duty and the things which I require at their hands. I love how patient he is here. He is exacting. Can we say that about God, he’s exacting. He does require obedience, but he says, “Listen, let’s take as long as you need. You need more time to learn, to have experience, and to learn more perfectly what I’m asking you to do about your duty and the things I’m requiring of you.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:41:10 One of my favorite thoughts from Brad Wilcox, he gave a talk once and he said, “You know how in the sacrament, have you ever heard a priest mess up the prayer? And of course everyone can nod their head. Have you ever heard of a priest mess up over and over again, and it starts to get awkward and uncomfortable in the congregation? And each time the Bishop leans over, shakes his head, and says, One more time.” Brad said. He said that there isn’t some secret switch that a Bishop can flip that opens a trap door underneath the priest and sucks illiterate priests down into the dungeon until they can get those prayers. He said, “The Lord does want that prayer said exactly. But you can take as many tries as it takes to get it right. Sometimes you just-“

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:42:03 As it takes to get it right. Sometimes you just need to practice until you get it right, right? And I love that thought, I love the image of God that that portrays that he is exacting, but he’s also patient and merciful. And so, that’s what I see in verses 9 and 10 is, you got to do some more learning. Apparently there’s more you need to know more perfectly about your duty and the things I’m asking of you and let’s take as much time as you need on that. And then for this to happen, he says in verse 11 and 12, and he mentions again in verse 18 and 33, he talks about an endowment. He says, “This cannot be brought to pass this full educational experience, this reorienting of your hearts and minds, until mine elders are endowed with power from on high. For behold, I have prepared a great endowment and a blessing to be poured out upon them in as much as they are faithful and continue in humility before me.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:42:58 And then he actually tells them in verse 33, if you flip over that, that endowment is going to happen, he says in the Kirtland Temple. Back in Kirtland, there is an endowment on high that my elders need to receive as … he’s not super explicit here, but it seems somehow connected to this reorienting, reeducation experience and perhaps they need the gift from God, this gift of power to help them be what he needs them to be, to live the laws he needs them to live, to bring about the Zion project, the kingdom of God that needs to be brought about in preparation for his coming. So these are all kind of connected together, right?

Hank Smith: 00:43:38 Yeah. If you go back to 101, wasn’t that the parable? What does he need the tower for? Right? What does he need the temple for? Well, I needed the temple so you could learn to be Zion. And so we’re going to have to go do that somewhere else.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:43:54 Yeah. And if you can keep that in mind that a primary purpose of the temple is to make us Zion like or kingdom ready, ready for the king to come, being as consecrated and as pure in heart and mind and all the things that they’re lacking here and that as we look inside our own souls, we see that we’re often lacking the covenants of the temple and that that’s exactly what they’re calculated to do. Now those won’t come about till Nauvoo, what we’re talking about here, but Kirtland’s going to be the beginning of that kind of purification of the heart. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:44:29 Right. Doesn’t that what Isaiah says, go to the mountain of the Lord, he will teach us of his ways, we will beat our swords into plows, right? Am I getting this right? We will beatour spears into pruning hooks. In my mind he’s saying, let’s go to the temple so we can be taught and changed, right? We can be changed from a sword to a plow, right? A weapon of war to a weapon of feeding people. And it seems like that fits very well here. Don’t you think Scott, with the idea of the temple is what’s going to change you into a Zion-type people, a Zion person.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:45:08 Yeah. Part of that education, that reorientation that they need, we’re not doing things the way of the world, right? And it’s hard to unlearn, right? You can hear Yoda saying, you must unlearn what you have learned. I don’t know, John, can you do a good Yoda impersonation or-

Hank Smith: 00:45:30 I bet he can.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:45:30 Is that in your repertoire?

John Bytheway: 00:45:31 Do Yoda, I cannot.

Hank Smith: 00:45:33 It won’t get … that’s a great line.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:45:38 That was good. You must unlearn what you have learned. Right? One of my favorite Yoda quotes. In fact, that line is almost an exact line from Levi Hancock, who was on Zion’s Camp. He said that the prophet Joseph taught those in Zion’s Camp that quote, “we had to unlearn what we had learned from the world.” That was one of the things that we need to shed that. How long is it going to take for us to unlearn what we’ve learned from the world that keeps us from receiving the blessings of Zion and the Lord’s saying here, as long as it takes, right? You can see the Bishop looking over and just shaking his head and saying, one more time, give it another try. Yeah-

Hank Smith: 00:46:23 You’ll get it. You’ll get it.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:46:24 You’ll get it. You’ll get it. However many tries it takes, just keep trying.

Hank Smith: 00:46:29 Earlier in the podcast you said, this is the way. So you quoted The Mandalorian and there, you just quoted Yoda so,

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:46:35 I mean, so-

Hank Smith: 00:46:35 I don’t know, there’s something there. I think there’s some plagiarism going on. This was written first.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:46:43 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:46:45 Well, this is humbling. I mean, thinking of Joseph himself walking, as you said, 30 or 40 miles in a day, not getting on a wagon. And I think I might be tempted to murmur, blisters on your feet and everything, and then getting there. I mean, Zion’s Camp is just to a fascinating story. And I appreciate the way you’ve explained the reasons, the solutions, this is really good Scott. I’m reminded of President Benson’s cleanse the inner vessel emphasis, worry about the outside things as much, but we got to start within.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:47:22 Yeah. And I think John, some listeners might want to grab onto that phrase. You just mentioned verse 14, where the Lord promises to fight your battle. He says, “I don’t require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion. For as I’ve said in former commandment, even so will I fulfill, I will fight your battles.” For imagery there, you can think of that storm, that he protected them big time. So physically, that’s certainly one of the things he might mean here, but yeah, you work on you, you work on your heart, you work on becoming that Zion people according to the laws of the Celestial Kingdom, he said in verse five, work on that and I’ll worry about the enemies.

Hank Smith: 00:48:04 For me, I just personally am thinking, how can I be more consecrated and how can I be more united, first of course, in my home and my ward and my stake, how can I be more united with those people around me and how can I be more consecrated? I think if we all ask those questions, we’d be moving forward, wouldn’t we Scott towards our goal?

John Bytheway: 00:48:25 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:48:26 Amen. Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:48:27 I don’t want to be the one ruining the corporate behavior-

Hank Smith: 00:48:32 The corporate blessings.

John Bytheway: 00:48:33 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:48:33 Yeah. And John, you’ll appreciate a Book of Mormon reference here. Sometimes I think of it as when Lehi’s family, they’re in the boat, they’re crossing the ocean and how many did it take? How many did it take to bring the storm? There are a lot of people that were being very obedient to the Lord the whole time, and you get a few people who were being rude, a few people who were being, I don’t know what kind of dancing they were doing, but-

Hank Smith: 00:49:00 It wasn’t good.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:01 Yeah. And then there-

John Bytheway: 00:49:02 Forgetting God.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:03 Yeah. It was just a small, it was Layman and Lemuel and what was it? Some of the-

Hank Smith: 00:49:09 Sons of Ishmael.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:11 Sons of Ishmael.

John Bytheway: 00:49:12 Yeah. And who paid? Everybody.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:15 Everybody, everybody paid for their-

John Bytheway: 00:49:16 Good point.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:18 How many people does it take to rock the boat? It could be a few.

John Bytheway: 00:49:22 Lehi, can we make a separate boat for us?

Hank Smith: 00:49:26 Let’s split the boat in half, cut it right down the middle.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:49:30 Right. And sometimes that’s the analogy, where you’ve heard Elder Ballard talk about the Good Ship, Zion, right? The Good Zhip Zion, maybe that’s an analogy that’s helpful, but the Lord says … there’s a few other things maybe we should grab here that I think might be useful to understanding the Lord’s plan for that time. And then maybe some things that grew out of this, that would be interesting for our listeners. So the Lord says for those who will remain in the region, those who are Missourians, who’ve been displaced, that they should do their best to find grace and favor in the eyes of the locals. This is in verse 23, 24, 25. That’s the phrase, I will give unto you favor and grace, that you may rest in peace and safety while you’re saying to the people, please help us out, please execute judgment and justice for us according to the law and redress us of our wrongs.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:50:24 He says, if you can do that, kind of curry favor with the locals that will give sufficient time, verse 26, for Joseph to raise an army of Israel until the army of Israel becomes very great. Which he says that Joseph and mine elders, verse 27, will have time to gather up the “strength in my house.” Now, what about those, we haven’t talked about the good guys yet. Right? What about those, like Wilford Woodruff? What about those people? What about-

Hank Smith: 00:50:55 Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, all these guys, George A. Smith.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:50:58 They did a great job showing they were willing to lay down their lives right to come along to Zion’s Camp. What about them? And the Lord talks about them in verse 18 and 19. He says, “That in as much as there are those who have hearkened to my words, I have prepared a blessing and an endowment for them, mentions the endowment again here, if they continue faithful. I have heard their prayers and will accept their offerings. …” I will accept their offerings. And it is, Expedient in me that they should be brought thus far for a trial of their faith.” This was a refining, even for the best of them, a refining, a trial of their faith. And this is where we get some of those great stories, right? From some of the leaders that were there. Brigham Young, for instance, someone asked him, “Brother Brigham, what have you gained by this journey?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:51:48 And then when Brigham Young was in Salt Lake, he’s already there, he’s President of the Church at this time, he was recalling this and he said, “I have traveled with Joseph a thousand miles, as he has led the Camp of Israel. I have watched him and observed everything he said or did. For the town of Kirtland, I would not give the knowledge I got from Joseph from this journey. This was the starting point of my knowing how to lead Israel.” So this is going to be valuable. In fact, go over to verse 35. I think the Lord is starting to hint toward the fact that there were certain people on this trip, who he is about to choose for added leadership responsibilities. He says in verse 35, “There has been a day of calling, but the time has come for a day of choosing and let those be chosen that are worthy.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:52:47 “And it shall be manifest unto my servant, [Joseph] by the voice of the Spirit, those that are chosen; and they shall be sanctified.” He’s a little ambiguous here about what he means by chosen for what? Right? Chosen for what? But you both know what happens after this, right? When they get home, actually that next year on Valentine’s Day, this is when it’s time for the choosing of the Twelve Apostles and the Seventy. And the way that Joseph phrased the gathering of that meeting, he said, “We’d like to have a meeting with all those who were on Zion’s Camp.” That’s how he phrased it. Or the “Camp of Israel,” I think, would be his phrase.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:53:33 And they, along with others came and he actually had those who were in the camp of Israel. I want you to come sit over here and those who were not, you can sit over here. And he just wanted to highlight the sacrifice of those who were willing to do that. And then he said, the time has come for the Lord to call and to choose those who have proven that they’ve been willing to lay down their lives for him. And then he turned to the three witnesses and said, you know, back in Section 18, you were commissioned to choose the Quorum of the Twelve, now’s the time. They withdraw amongst themselves-

Hank Smith: 00:54:10 That’s Oliver Cowdery.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:54:12 Yeah, that’s Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris.

Hank Smith: 00:54:15 Okay.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:54:16 They withdraw, are prayerful and they’ve been thinking about this ever since section 18 was given, Oliver Cowdery later says, but like this kind of weight on them, this responsibility, but this was the time they come back and they present the names of the Twelve. And I think it was, was it nine of the Twelve, original Twelve apostles were on Zion’s Camp and then the selection of the Seventy, how many of the original presidents of the Seventy and Quorum of the Seventy were on Zion’s Camp? A Hundred percent, a hundred percent of those, yeah, were from Zion’s Camp. And so, the Three Witnesses set the Quorum of the Twelve apart, and then the First Presidency confirmed their calling. And so I think that’s what the Lord is alluding to here in verse 35 and 36 that, so here in Section 105. I think that’s what verse 35 and 36 are talking about, right? “That let those be chosen that are worthy. There’s now a group who have shown that they are willing to lay down their lives for Christ’s sake.” And that’s exactly the kind of people he wants as the leaders of the Church.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:55:25 Things get more complex as this continues to move, as the Church grows. We’re now going to have a group of tried and true leaders, right? That will hopefully be able to bear this kingdom forward. So Zion’s Camp had that influence, that refining influence. And it’s interesting that’s when … you know when you listen to Church leaders today, talk about Zion’s Camp, they seem to always go there. And I like this quote from Elder Dallin H. Oaks, he said, “According to its ostensible purpose, Zion’s Camp was a failure.” I love that, he was just like, they did not get their land back. Right? But then he said, but most of the men who were to lead the Church for the next half century, including those who would take the Saints across the plains and colonize the Inner Mountain West, came to know the prophet Joseph and received their formative leadership training in the march of Zion’s Camp.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:56:23 So good, right? Elder Bednar, he brings it kind of to our day, he says, “As individuals and in our families, we too will be tested, sifted and prepared as were the members of Zion’s Camp. Remember not everyone came out very well, right? There were some that this is going to try their faith and yet there’s others like Brigham Young, who just, they come out shining.” There’s something about this crucible, right? That sort of causes people to go one way or the other here. So Elder Bednar is saying, that’s happening also today in different ways. He says, “the scriptures and the declarations of the apostles and prophets do not indicate that the faithful members of this Church will have trials and tests removed from their lives.” Right? Quite to the contrary, the Lord needs to know who he can rely on. So anyway, thoughts on that from either of you?

John Bytheway: 00:57:17 I love that. And I think Hank brought this up before, the idea of, well, that wasn’t what we expected. I think Hank, you brought up the disciples on the Road to Emmaus. Well, we had hoped that this had been the Savior that would … and I keep seeing parallels with that because they also thought that Jesus was a political type deliverer and he ended up to have a much more spiritual work and impact that he had on them. And so did Zion’s Camp, it didn’t end up being as much as a physical thing, as a process of becoming for all those that went on it.

Hank Smith: 00:57:53 Yeah. It seems to be a pattern with the Lord. Doesn’t it? That he’s got … we have one intention in mind, he’s got another.

John Bytheway: 00:57:59 Expectation. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:58:01 He’s got a completely different thing in mind. And he kind of lets us go on with our expectation. And then when the moment comes where our expectation isn’t met, he says, “But mine was.” Right? Everything happened that I wanted to have happen there along the way. If you think about Brigham and the Exodus from Nauvoo and the experience he gained from this, and he’s also going to be the one who takes him from Missouri back to Illinois, right? When they’re-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:58:29 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:58:30 Exodus from-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:58:31 When Joseph’s in jail.

Hank Smith: 00:58:32 When Joseph’s in jail. These two experiences are going to create in him, someone who can actually pull off the Exodus of the Millennium. Right? And so I think the Lord has that in mind, as he’s working here versus our limited understanding right? Of what we think we’re doing. So, wow.

John Bytheway: 00:58:58 And I think it’s great. An application that we can all make is when our expectations are not met or we didn’t get what we thought we would get, but we can say, but what did we learn? What did we become? What did we experience? Those verses that you’ve pointed out Scott.

Hank Smith: 00:59:11 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:59:13 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:59:13 John what appears to be a total failure to some is an absolute success to the Lord. And that can be applied in many different ways. When things that you’d hoped kind of fall apart, right? When a marriage that you’d hoped was going to continue forever kind of falls apart, or when something, a career that you’d hoped was going to happen, doesn’t happen. You can see the Lord’s hand in that particular direction for a while. Right? And then he says, I got what I wanted out of that, now let’s go this way.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 00:59:47 Yeah. And you can go… yeah. And we see it, right? That people can go two ways with those types of really intense life experiences. It can either make them better or it can make them bitter. Right? And you never know until the crucible hits. And so I think just having that pattern in our lives of trying to be submissive to God, do the best we can, be willing to lay down our lives for his sake, having just kingdom of God first in our minds, I think that that prepares us when those types of things happen, when our assumptions are violated, because they will, because they will. Right?

John Bytheway: 01:00:34 One more example, end of the war chapters [in the Book of Mormon], where some were hardened because of the exceedingly great length of the war and others were softened and it was the same experience, different reactions based on what they chose internally, how they chose to take it.

Hank Smith: 01:00:50 No, I was just going to say, I just love seeing the Lord’s patience in these verses that … and he’s just so calm with them as how frustrated they must be at least some of them and even Joseph. Right? And he says, well, you’ve got a lot to learn, so I’m here for you.

John Bytheway: 01:01:08 Do you know what else, Hank? I’ve just loved experiencing this with everyone because I have sensed especially in those latter nineties Sections, how anxious he is to give them the blessings of the temple. It keeps coming back, I want to endow you with power, would you hurry up and do that thing?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:01:28 Yeah. Yeah. I have a gift I want to give you, but I can’t give it until you’re ready.

John Bytheway: 01:01:35 Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then-

Hank Smith: 01:01:36 I love going back to that parable that you mentioned from 101 Scott, what need has my Lord of a tower?

John Bytheway: 01:01:41 What do you need that for?

Hank Smith: 01:01:42 Why do you need a Temple? Right. You can give us everything without having a temple. We don’t need … I probably do that same thing in my own life. Why do I need to go to the temple? Why do I need to make time for that? I pray, I read my scriptures. Why do I need to make time for that temple? Right? And the Lord’s saying-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:01:55 I’m a good person. I’m a good person.

Hank Smith: 01:01:57 Yeah. And what is it the Lord said in the parable, I got to go back. Why? What is the cause of this great evil? Just do what I asked you to do.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:02:08 Wow. I have two thoughts. One, I want to just highlight something that there’s an article about this, that your listeners should know about written by Alex Baugh back in 2005, it’s on the Church’s website just called “Joseph Smith and Zion’s Camp.” Let me just read the last paragraph of what he says in there. It’s so good.

Hank Smith: 01:02:28 John is showing us the-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:02:29 John is showing it here for the viewers.

John Bytheway: 01:02:32 So good. Right.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:02:34 Yeah. It’s succinct and I think if you were going to teach a gospel doctrine lesson, you’d want to just read through this and have a highlighter. This is just an angle that I think is worth considering. He talks about, what did Zion’s Camp do for Joseph Smith? We often think about the up and coming leaders, but what about the … what’s Joseph? Is he twenty-

Hank Smith: 01:02:54 28.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:02:55 Oh 28, 28 years old, okay, so Joseph’s 28.

Hank Smith: 01:02:57 Turning 28, turning 28 I think.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:02:59 There you go. So Joseph is 28 years old. So what about him. So here’s what Alex Baugh-

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:03:03 So Joseph is 28 years old. So what about him? So here’s what Alex Baugh says, and I just love Alex Baugh and can’t say enough good about his scholarship on all these kinds of topics. He’s so good. So he said, “Lastly, we should not overlook the fact that the Prophet Joseph Smith as the commander may have gained more from the experience than anyone else. Five years after Zion’s Camp, the Lord revealed to the prophet that all the trials in his life shall give the experience and shall be for thy good.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:03:27 “Surely the Zion’s Camp experience was for his good. Unquestionably, he learned valuable gospel lessons about faith, and virtue, and knowledge, and temperance, and patience, and brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, and diligence. He also learned lessons regarding relationships with others, the need for preparation.” Joseph didn’t prepare very well for this, and a lot of people suffered including himself. “And the consequences of one’s actions. In short, Zion’s Camp was an important chapter in the life of Joseph Smith that further defined and refined him as a prophet leader to the Latter-day Saints.”

Hank Smith: 01:04:01 Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:04:02 Just a great, great statement there from Brother Baugh.

Hank Smith: 01:04:05 That’s a cool angle.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:04:07 Yeah. Now, second thought. How about this thought from Elder Ballard. Elder Ballard gave a talk, let’s see, 10, 11 years ago to Young Adults fireside. He said this. He said… so I’m going to play with his numbers a little bit because time has passed. But he said, “By the year 2040, just 30 years from now, which would be what, 19 years from now, just 19 years from now, the number of stakes will have doubled from what they were 11 years ago to approximately 6,000 stakes.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:04:41 Then he said to that group, that audience, “You’re going to be in your 40s and 50s, early 50s.” He said, “Now ask yourself, where are the 6,000 Stake Presidents? Where are their first counselors and second counselors, executive secretaries and Ccerks? Where are the 6,000 times 12 or 72,000 High councilors?” And suppose that every stake has an average of 10 units about the average and the stakes today, where are the 60,000 bishops, first counselors, second counselors, executive secretaries, clerks, elders, quorum presidents, their counselors, high priest group leaders, their assistants, relief society, young women, primary presidents and their counselors, and on and on. Where are they?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:05:24 He said, “I’m speaking to them right now. You are they. You are they. Will you be ready?” He asked to accept the callings that the Lord will extend to you. Do not let one day go by when you do not strive to be ready to serve. How are we going to be sifted and tested and tried and prepared? I don’t think we’re going to be asked to walk a thousand miles or 880, right? One way and then turn around. I just don’t think that’s going to happen.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:05:56 Here’s Elder Bednar dropped a zinger. It was actually that same year, 2010 at a BYU Idaho education week devotional. He’s talking about Zion’s Camp. The whole talk is about Zion’s Camp. It’s really good. He said, “Consider brothers and sisters that affluence, prosperity and ease can be tests in our day equal to or greater in intensity than the persecution and physical hardships endured by the Saints who volunteered to march in Zion’s Camp.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:06:24 So he’s saying that affluence, prosperity and ease can be tests in our day that are equal to Zion’s Camp. How about that? So sometimes I like to ask my students just to think about that, because this kind of boggles the mind, right? How could prosperity try me? How could the prosperity refine my soul? And sometimes I like to throw out some questions like this. I said, “All right. So which test is harder being thrown into a prison cell or being given unlimited cell phone service?”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:06:54 Okay. A little play on words there. It’s a little cheesy. I apologize. Here’s another one. Which test is harder? March with blistered feet, 900 miles to Missouri or a walk across the street once a month to check on your ministering families for the love. Right?

Hank Smith: 01:07:12 Can I do a shout out to the Day family who is my ministering family? We’re going to count this podcast that they listen to. All right, go ahead, Scott.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:07:19 Yeah. See, it’s never been easier. It’s never been easier what you just did. Okay. Here’s another one. Okay. Which test is harder being tarred and feathered for being Mormon, or remember The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or keeping your thoughts clean on the internet? Which test is harder being tied to a tree and whipped for your beliefs, which was totally happening to those saints in Missouri, during the expulsion, or always remembering the Savior, you covenanted to do while having TV, YouTube and Facebook in your life.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:07:54 Is it easier to follow the prophet to redeem Zion or is it easier to follow the prophets council to redeem your own dead ancestors using high speed internet on your laptop, in your living room, right? As you prepare to go to one of the… hopefully, I mean, if you live in the Wasatch Front, many temples that are nearby and maybe you don’t live close to the temple. But you understand the point. Which test is harder, right? Building the Kirtland Temple in your poverty or regularly attending one of the temples in your area. Right? I mean, it’s never been easier, but in that ease is the test Elder Bednar is saying. That’s a provocative thought.

Hank Smith: 01:08:37 Just like Zion’s Camp. You find out it’s a day of choosing, right? A day of affluence becomes then a day of choosing. Who chooses, right? Who chooses the Lord over their affluence, over their ease?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:08:52 At BYU, Idaho, I took a class from Elder Bednar right before he became an apostle and the class was called Teachings of the Living Prophets, my religion course. Then the next semester he actually became a living prophet. So that helped to kind of validate a lot of what he taught. I remember we were studying Elder Scott. You get to study different apostles and Elder Bednar, he wanted us to ask him questions. That’s how we act and not be acted upon in the learning process.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:09:20 Sometimes he’d have really cool stuff to share, but he wouldn’t share it unless we asked and this was one of those weeks. Elder Bednar had just been in Salt Lake at a meeting with some of the brethren. He had just seen Elder Scott. And we met on Friday with Elder Bednar. So I remember we’re there and Elder Bednar opens up class and he says, “All right. We’re talking about Elder Scott today. What questions do you have?” And I raised my hand and I said, “Elder Bednar, have you seen Elder Scott recently?” And he said, “I have.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:09:47 I raised my hand again, “Elder Bednar, what would you teach us? What did you learn from Elder Scott that you could teach us?” He said, “Well, that’s a great question.” I was actually in a meeting with him recently, and as we were leaving, we’re in the elevator and I told him, “We’re going to be talking about them today.” I asked him if he had any counsel for my students and he said, “Yes, I do.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:10:08 He said, “I wrote it down on this three by five card right here in my suit coat pocket. Would you guys like to hear what Elder Scott wanted to say to you?” I was like, “Yes.” This is what he said. I think this is pretty close to an exact quote. He said, Elder Scott said to us, the students of Elder Bednar. He said, “Tell your students that God did not send them to Earth to be entertained. They are here for a much more glorious purpose.” That was the message from Elder Scott. Wow.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:10:39 I think held in reserve 6,000 years. Pick your favorite prophet quote of some of the most noble and great generation. And here we are. We can spend hours and hours and hours just doing nothing. And maybe that’s part of the test. God needs leaders. God needs people who are consecrated, people who are willing to give their all to him. With your free time, you can give a lot to God. You can give a lot to God in your free time. You can help prepare your heart. You can consecrate your mind. You can prepare yourself to be something that God can use, someone who can be an instrument, his hands to do some things.

Hank Smith: 01:11:19 Let me read from Elder 2007, Elder Dallin H Oaks. “Team sports and technology toys like video games and the internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth. Surfing the internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family. Some young men and women are skipping church youth activities, are cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments.” And then this statement, I’ll always remember. “Some young people, and I’d say all people are amusing themselves to death, spiritual death, amusing themselves to death.”

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:11:57 Is that our Zion’s Camp? Elder Bednar seems to say that could be our Zion’s Camp today. Is this going to make you better, or is it going to make you like just a lump that God can’t really do much with? I don’t know. We never want to be too harsh. Right? But it’s just more… I check myself on these things like, “What am I doing?”

Hank Smith: 01:12:19 That could be the name of my autobiography, A Lump that God Couldn’t Do Much With. That would be a good title for the Life of Hank Smith. Is there anything else in these sections, John, Scott, before we wrap up? I feel like we’ve got some great, great content here.

John Bytheway: 01:12:37 It’s been great. I think everybody will have an enhanced sense of Zion’s Camp.

Hank Smith: 01:12:43 Yep. I think so too.

John Bytheway: 01:12:44 And the high council too.

Hank Smith: 01:12:46 And the high council.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:12:48 Did the high council get elevated at all in your minds? I mean, was this helpful anyway? There’s a lot of high councilman jokes. I just want to make sure that we got them.

Hank Smith: 01:12:56 Yeah. We’ve got to make sure we got all those in.

John Bytheway: 01:12:58 We like to bring you the love of the high council.

Hank Smith: 01:13:03 Yeah, or the stake presidency. I bring you greetings and love from the stake presidency. We come in peace. Scott, we’ve been friends for a long time and I know you have been studying the history of the Church and the doctrines of the Church. I know you said earlier, “I’m kind of a doctrinal guy.” I think that was a bit of an understatement when it comes to… If I want to know a doctrine of the Church, if I’m a little bit confused, I know that Scott Woodward knows. Right? Like he knows, he just knows. He’s made it his life study. So in 25 years of studying and teaching, our listeners would love to hear your thoughts on how you feel about Joseph Smith and the Restoration, the Book of Mormon and the temple and everything that’s come from it. What’s it done for you?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:13:51 I can’t remember what I said last time. So I might repeat some thoughts.

Hank Smith: 01:13:55 I think that’s okay.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:13:56 I still feel the same. I still feel the same. It just keeps growing. The reality of humanity is that we’re complex, right? We’re complex people. None of us are totally good. None of us are totally bad. We’re complex. As we’ve talked about today, we need time to figure some things out. I think when you give the charity to Church leaders and the history of the Church, that we would hope that people would give to us, it’s the right thing to do when you study Church History.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:14:32 It’s the golden rule. So when I studied Joseph Smith and when I study early Church History and I see some of the squabbles and the problems and the humanity and we’ve got a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles early on, who’s going to be in their 20s and 30s, and they’re going to be young guys. They’re going to have a lot of trouble sometimes with each other, sometimes with Joseph. It’s going to be complex. You’re coming up here on a few sections about the Kirtland Apostasy, or you’re going to get up there soon enough.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:15:07 We’re going to see that there’s some challenges in Church History and there are always human problems. And I’m okay with that. I’ve come to a place in my life where I don’t. Why would I expect anything else? Right. The divinity of this work is what God can do with weakened simple people. I would include Joseph Smith and that he’s marvelous, but he’s also one of the weak and simple things of the earth that the Lord likes to work with those kind of people.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:15:43 I remember President Nelson saying when he was asked about some of the complexities of Church History, I think it was a news conference. And I remember his statement was, “Yeah, you’re going to find a mix of divinity and humanity in that.” Totally. And then he kind of moved on next question.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:16:04 I love that matter-of-factness. You’re going to see it doctrinally. Sometimes you’ll have some doctrinal errors that prophets in the past have made and they get fixed and things are going to be all right. Brigham Young said, “I know many times I’ve preached wrong and yet that doesn’t make him not a prophet.” I have a little video maybe about me. I’ll include a link in this notes or something, just a little explainer video about how to become doctrinally confident and knowing sometimes there’s apostle who said things that weren’t true. And how do you work through the complexities of that?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:16:45 It doesn’t make someone not a prophet because they’ve made errors. We saw that in Section 102, right? If the President makes an error, then we can call for a rehearing and that’s totally in the cards. Right? So I think sometimes we bring to the table, some false assumptions about prophets and about Church history. We want it super sanitize, and we want them just to never do wrong. We want them to be amazing and we want to just cheer them on and just be inspired by their every move and every word. And that’s not reality, right?

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:17:15 My wife calls this maybe a mature testimony where we move past our simplistic assumptions and we just see things how they really are. And to me, that’s the miracle of it is what God did with some 20-somethings and 30-somethings in the early years of the church. What he’s doing today with 20-somethings and 30-somethings and octogenarians.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:17:39 And the whole gamut is dealing with the youth of the Church. We’re just a bunch of simple weak people. And yet God keeps telling us try again and keep going. So I love the man when I keep the commandments of God, when I try to keep my temple covenants, that I’ve made. My baptism of covenants. When I read scripture, I feel profound peace and goodness, and light and truth. Some scripture studies are better than others, but I feel consistently edified by them.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:18:14 As I step back and think where did all that come from? Most of the scriptures, besides the Bible that we study and my temple covenants, I mean, it all traces back to the life and ministry of Joseph Smith and what Jesus did through this weak servant. I love the Lord for it and I’m inspired beyond words for the gift of the restoration, for the prophets with my eyes wide open to the complexities and the problems and the challenges. But for me, I just wouldn’t expect anything else.

Dr. Scott Woodw…: 01:18:46 Of course, there’s humanity, but what about the divinity? So I feel it’s a good place. I’m very comfortable in my Latter-day Saint skin. I feel like I can stand up for the prophets also with my eyes wide open to pass weaknesses or erroneous statements or whatever. And that’s totally fine to me. So I just have a testimony of God’s work and I see what it’s doing in my life. And then I see what’s happening to those I love and then corporately, right? This big picture. Great things are happening right now. We’re moving in the right direction. The Lord is going to come and we’re refining ourselves in preparation for him to do so.

Hank Smith: 01:19:26 Yeah, absolutely wonderful, Dr. Scott Woodward. John, I’m going to look at these sections. I’ve had so much fun today with the very first hearing of the high council, all the way to the end of Zion’s Camp.

John Bytheway: 01:19:41 And the second one, and the third one.

Hank Smith: 01:19:44 So uplifted, and edified, and just enriched. It’s a good day. It’s a good day. We want to thank everyone for listening. Of course, we want to thank Dr. Woodward for his time, but we want to thank all of you for listening. We’re grateful for you and your support. John and I have said time and again, nothing like this would be happening if it weren’t for you who take the time to listen. Thank you to our executive producers, whom we love Steve and Shannon Sorensen. We have a great production crew in Jamie Nielsen, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Kyle Nelson, Will Stockton, and Maria Hilton. We hope you all will join us for our next episode of followHIM.