John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:00:07 What would you say to someone who says yes, it wasn’t a trial that I went through, but maybe a trial of my own choosing, an addiction. I think the Savior is saying the same thing. I experienced maybe humanity, maybe not that particular addiction, but I experienced humanity and the people in it. So I get it. I understand human nature.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:00:33 That’s one point in connection with the Savior we struggle with. We suffer, like you said, Hank, because of our own decisions sometimes. The Savior never made a bad decision, is what we’re saying, but He still suffered. Sometimes the most poignant suffering comes when you’re doing the right thing. You’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to be doing, but things still don’t work out for you.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:00:55 If you weren’t doing what you were supposed to be doing, I think the Savior genuinely has the ability to help people. To take your bad experiences and turn them into something that is healing for others. One of the missionaries I know in my mission, one of my favorite guys had a marijuana leaf tattooed on his shoulder and I found out he was a convert to the church when he was around 22 or 23 years old.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:01:19 He had had a rough life, but he was able to take those experiences, and really in a way that I couldn’t, help people. The Savior is able to sanctify everything and everyone around Him, whether it’s suffering you didn’t cause or whether it’s suffering you did cause. Both those things can be turned into a cleansing sanctifying and ultimately building things that not only help you, but empower you to help others.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:01:44 I don’t think Alma the Younger, might have been able to do everything he was supposed to do if he hadn’t had such a rotten childhood, I guess, but here’s a person-

Hank Smith: 00:01:54 Of his own, choosing a lot of it-

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:01:55 Of his own choosing. Here’s a person who can speak about the negative consequences of sin with real experience, but those negative consequences have been turned into sanctifying experiences.

Hank Smith: 00:02:06 By the Savior. Yeah, that’s a beautiful idea, Casey, thank you.

John Bytheway: 00:02:10 I don’t know if this is exactly correct, but I’ve always thought that perhaps because Jesus didn’t sin and made the correct moral choices, but I’ve always wondered if maybe the reason that He lost the Father’s presence while suffering on the cross was so that He would feel a taste of the spiritual death, the separation from God, that we feel when we sin and all those sins you’ve just talked about. He would even know what that felt like. I don’t know if that’s theologically correct, but I’ve always thought now He can even say that I know what it’s like not to have My Father’s Spirit with me.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:02:53 Well, I think if you put your logic hat on, that one’s an easy one to see. If Nephi and the Savior are both saying He went through all things, and one thing we suffer is a loss of the Spirit and being cast out in the presence of God. It’s clear that at some point, the Savior experienced it. Probably at that moment you described John, but that moment rather than being sad and pathetic, needs to be empowering to us that that’s the moment where the Savior finally makes it over the top of the hill.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:03:24 That’s the moment when the atonement fully happened that, He had to experience separation from God. The words were so powerful that one of the gospel writers literally couldn’t translate. He had to write down, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, and then translated as, My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? Because as a witness of that, he must have felt like I can’t undersell this. You need to know the exact words he said at that moment. It’s that important. So here’s the language that he used.

Hank Smith: 00:03:57 That’s a beautiful idea, and the Savior Himself in Section 19 said, “You don’t understand what the atonement was all about. You’ve tasted a tiny, tiny portion.” So had he not experienced it in life, we’re saying, He experienced it at some point whether it was in His life or during His Atonement there was at some point, He knows all things. He’s experienced all things. Let’s keep going here, Casey, because I can see why you’d say there’s a lot in this section. We’ve only gone through the first third.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:04:32 It’s dense. There’s a lot of stuff here. So, we talked about what you worship, what we learn about Jesus Christ here. Now, let’s go to the second thing, which is how you worship. So, I love this quote from Elder McConkie. Elder McConkie says, “Perfect worship is emulation. We honor those whom we imitate. The most perfect way to worship Jehovah is to be holy as He is holy. It’s to be pure as Christ is pure. It’s to do the things that enable us to become like the Father and the course is one of obedience.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:05:04 So Elder McConkie says worship is imitation. When you start to think about it that way, what we call a worship service in the church, you go to a building, you have somebody get up and preach a sermon, which is something Jesus did. When we have the most important part of our worship service, which all of us have thought a lot about in the last year, we have a person, a young man, get up, and break bread, and bless water, and then distribute it to everybody. Those are all things that Jesus did.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:05:32 Jesus was the first person to break the bread, and then administer the wine, and give it to people. So literally, we’re asking a priest, a teacher and a deacon to act like Jesus for five minutes, and that’ll help you become more like Jesus. We, in taking the sacrament also imitate Jesus. He took the sacrament to. That worship as imitation.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:05:54 So it’s like when we go to church, the reason why the sacrament is such a big deal is because for those four or five minutes, we’re literally just setting everything down, turn off your phone, act like Jesus, and literally imitate actions that He did down here on earth. The idea being that that spreads to our entire life, but when Jesus is saying, “I want you to worship Me,” now He starts to sort of take the lens off Himself and put it back onto us.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:06:21 Look at the patterns that He gives her. Okay, go down to verse 21. “I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and I’m the Firstborn. And all those who are begotten through Me are partakers of the glory of the same, and the church of the Firstborn.” Then He says, “You were also in the beginning with the Father, which is even that which is Spirit or the Spirit of truth.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:06:40 So He starts to make statements about Himself, and then throughout the rest of the section, He starts to say, “This is true for you, too. I was in the beginning with the Father. So were you.” Then He starts to talk about, well, if you get out a little bit further, “I’m the Spirit of truth, you’re the Spirit of truth.” He starts to take all these statements about Himself and put them on top of us, starting with, I receive grace for grace, you have to receive grace for grace.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:07:06 I was in the beginning with the Father, you were in the beginning with the Father. So He’s laid out the table to basically say, here’s what I am. Then He’s basically taking all these statements and saying, and it’s the same thing as you. This is where a lot of the statements that sometimes other religions struggle with when they come to understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints struggle, because the Savior is basically here saying, what I did, you can do. What I am, you actually are. What I have become, you can also become too, and then teaching us this about Himself.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:07:41 He’s saying, the way that you worship Me is to become like Me. I’m not holding you to a lower standard. You’re not going to do everything that I did, you’re not going to atone for everyone’s sins, but to follow a course of obedience, and to demonstrate your fidelity to the Father and to the Son and then become like us is something that’s possible, just based on the very nature of what you are.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:08:05 So this is where section 93 gets really interesting, because the Savior has now explained what He is and He’s trying to explain to us what we are, and what our potential really is. So you look at a couple statements like, “I was in the beginning with the Father,” is Jesus saying he’s as old as God. Then when He says, “You were in the beginning of the Father,” is He’s saying, you’re as old as God, and you start to go, “Well, how can God be my Father if I’ve always existed, if I’ve been around as long as Him? We start to break down these barriers, where we think deeply about who and what we really are. In a philosophical sense.

Hank Smith: 00:08:45 In our very first episode, Tony Sweat, Dr. Sweat said, “This farm boy is creating theology that the best theologians of the world would be shocked and would just stand in awe, that He is churning out all this theology.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:09:07 Joseph Smith takes all these philosophical problems about the nature of man and the nature of God. Is Jesus fully human and fully divine, and section 93 just basically solves all of them. For instance, can I walk you through one of those philosophical problems?

Hank Smith: 00:09:22 Yes.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:09:23 All right. Jump over to verse 29, and this is where He comes back to the idea of where we come from, who and what we are. “Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence or the light of truth was not created, or made, neither indeed can be.” So, He teaches us something about men and women, that we’ve always existed, that we can’t be created or made. We just always existed. In that sense, we’re as old as God. Now, is God our Father? Yes, in the exact same sense that you and I and everybody else that becomes a father is.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:09:57 I don’t believe that my children were created out of nothing, and came to me. I believe that they existed before they came here. The Savior is saying we existed as something called intelligence and then God took that, and blessed it. Endowed it with a spirit, moved it down the path towards exaltation and eternal life, but there’s a part of every single person that’s always existed, that’s always been there. Intelligence.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:10:28 Then he goes on to say this, verse 30, “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it to act for itself, as all intelligence also, otherwise, there’s no existence. Here’s the agency of man and here’s the condemnation of man, because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest to them, and they received not the light.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:10:47 So there’s all kinds of speculation in the church over what intelligence means, but here, He basically just says, there’s two things about intelligence that we know for sure. One, it’s always exists. It can’t be created or made. Two, it has agency. It’s always had the power to make its own decisions. Now, we sometimes in the church say, didn’t God give us the gift of agency. He did.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:11:10 He gave you greater agency by giving you a spirit body and arranging for you to receive a physical body, which gives you more and more power to do things, but you’ve always had the power to make certain decisions, and to determine for yourself. Now, if we’re taking this on a philosophical level, one of the questions that sometimes confronts us is why, if God is all powerful, do bad things happen?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:11:36 A person of faith will often answer and say, “Because people make bad decisions,” and a person confronting them might say, “Well, why didn’t God just make us to be the sort of beings that never make bad decisions?” Section 93 gives the answer that there’s a part of you that is unmade, that’s primal with the universe and that part’s always had agency.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:11:57 So you can’t basically blame God for every bad decision you make. Because section 93 is saying, you’ve always had intelligence, you’ve always existed, and you’ve always had the power to make decisions. When you think about it in this way, it’s kind of freeing because another thing that they were talking about in those councils and that philosophers have always wrestled with is the question of predetermination.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:12:18 Like, are we just robots that are running a program that God placed inside of us? Section 93 is saying, no, you’re not a robot, you’ve always existed and you’ve always had the agency to make your own choices. What Heavenly Father did was come along and nurture you the best He possibly could, and allow you to make those decisions and sometimes you make good decisions, and that’s great. Sometimes you make bad decisions, but it’s your power to choose. It’s not something that just exists within you.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:12:47 Now, when it comes to our own children, a lot of times our kids will make bad decisions and we sit there and beat ourselves up and say, “Am I a terrible parent,” or something like that. Section 93 is saying you have to respect these children that come into your home as beings that have always existed, and beings that can make their own decisions. Sometimes they’ll make bad decisions, and sometimes they’ll make good decisions. You’re doing what God has done with you, which is point out the right way and then hope that you go in it.

Hank Smith: 00:13:17 This is good stuff.

John Bytheway: 00:13:19 I’ve got that statement from Truman Madsen, which is so good. This is from Steven Harper’s book called Making Sense of the Doctrine & Covenants. He says, “Every sentence, every word is freighted with meaning in Section 93. In one fell swoop, it cuts many Gordian knots. For example, how can something come from nothing? Answer. The Universe was not created from nothing. The elements are eternal. How can Christ be both absolutely human and absolutely divine at the same time? Answer. He was not both at the same time. Christ received not the fullness at first but continued until He received a fullness.

John Bytheway: 00:13:57 If man is totally the creation of God, how can he be anything or do anything that he was not divinely pre-caused to do? Answer, man is not totally the creation of God. Intelligence was not created or made, neither indeed can be. Behold, here is the agency of man. Another question, how can man be a divine creation and yet be totally depraved? Answer, man is not totally depraved. Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning, and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. What is the relationship of being and beings, the one and the many?

John Bytheway: 00:14:32 Answer, being is only the collective name of beings, of whom God is one. Truth is knowledge of things plural, knowledge of things plural, and not as Plato would habit, of thing hood. Truth is knowledge of things as they are and as they were, and as they are to come. How can spirit relate to gross matter? Answer, the elements are the tabernacle of God. Why should man be embodied? Answer, spirit and element inseparably can did receive a fullness of joy.

John Bytheway: 00:15:02 If we begin susceptible to light and truth, how is it that people air and abuse the light? Answer, people are free. They can be persuaded only if they choose to be. They cannot be compelled. The Socratic thesis that knowledge is virtue, in other words, if you really know the good, you will seek it and do it, is mistaken. It is through disobedience and because of the traditions of the fathers that light is taken away from mankind.”

John Bytheway: 00:15:31 So one last paragraph, during a presentation at the Yale Divinity School, Brother Truman Madsen told of a conversation with some Catholic priests. Learned Jesuits who expressed their inability to conceive of God as an intimate Father intent on raising mankind to share in his glory and status. Brother Madsen offered to them, how hard it is for Latter-day Saints to conceive of God as anything other than a concerned Father, whose work and glory is to glorify and exalt all of His willing children in the ways outlined in Section 93.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:16:06 Now, another thing Truman Madsen points out is that in the spring of 1833, Joseph Smith was 27 years old.

John Bytheway: 00:16:13 I know.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:16:15 And had a sixth grade education and he gives this revelation that’s 53 verses long, that just basically solves almost every problem that everybody has been wrestling with from Socrates, to Plato to Aristotle. That is amazing. If I didn’t have the Book of Mormon, I’d still think Joseph Smith was a prophet because I don’t know where the heck Section 93 came from, but going back to just one of those questions that you read, John, I’m going to read it again.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:16:41 Truman Madsen said, “Question, if man is totally the creation of God, can he be anything or do anything that he was not divinely pre-caused to do?” The basic philosophical argument being here, anything that happens, God caused it because He created everything from scratch. Heavenly Father created everything from nothing and because He created everything from nothing, He’s responsible for everything that happens.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:17:05 Section 93 is saying, answer, “Man is not totally the creation of God. Intelligence was not created or made, neither indeed can be, and here’s the agency of man.” The simple fact that Section 93 says that you’ve always existed, and you’ve always had some power to make your own decisions means that in essence, you’re your own man or woman.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:17:27 You’ve always had the right to make your own decisions and Heavenly Father respects that right. Heavenly Father is a good parent, in the sense that He’s not just doing the best to make you the best that you can be. He’s a good parent in the sense that sometimes He lets you make the wrong decision. He’s not interested in micromanaging our lives. He respects our agency that’s always been there from the beginning, and sometimes allows us to make the wrong choice.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:17:56 In that sense, we really are free. We really are the masters of our own destiny. If you look at it any other way, if, for instance, Hank, you brought up the Christian counsels a lot in our discussion here. One Christian belief is the God created everything ex nihilo, out of nothing. That there was nothing then God brought it into existence. Section 93 is saying God didn’t create something out of nothing. He nurtured what was already there.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:18:22 He took the matter that existed and turned it into beautiful, breathtaking landscapes, planets, stars, the whole cosmos that we can see. He took these intelligences which were primal, and have always existed along with the universe, and nurtured them into sons and daughters of God. That we have the best possible parents be there by our side, and help us make our decisions, but ultimately, parenting isn’t about making a decision for someone else.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:18:51 It’s about teaching them correct principles, and then allowing them to make their own decisions. These are the few verses where basically we go from being God is this mysterious being to we really know why He’s so invested in us. He’s so invested in us because His relationship with us is the same that we have with our children. You just love them from the moment that you see them, and you want the best for them, but it’s sometimes so crippling to think that you can’t do everything for them.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:19:25 Heavenly Father’s in the same position where He gives us every possible advantage that He can, but sometimes He’s got to just let us be what we are, and make our own choices and decisions. In the case of Jesus Christ, you have a child that makes every right decision and Jesus is saying, “This is what you have the potential to be like.” In the case of a child like Lucifer, you have somebody that makes all the wrong decisions and the scriptures also exist in part to show us what our potential is in that direction. Here’s how good you can be and here’s how bad you can be, all wrapped up in the principle of your eternal existence, and your agency which has been present from the beginning.

Hank Smith: 00:20:05 The Come, Follow Me manual has a great quote from Joseph Smith. Right at the very beginning, he says, “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and ascend, step by step until you arrive at the top and so it is with the principles of the gospel. You must begin with the first and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation.” Then this is added, after the quote. “Sometimes that ladder of exaltation seems impossibly high, but we were born to climb to the top. Whatever limitations we may see in ourselves, Heavenly Father and His Son see something glorious in us, something godlike.” That is a beautiful summary of what we’ve read so far.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:20:50 Well, let me read another quote from the manual too. The Prophet Joseph Smith thought, if men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves. It’s like being a Latter-day Saint means that you look at every single person and say, what’s their potential and Section 93 is saying their potential is that they could become like Jesus, and Jesus became like God.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:21:13 Section 93 is basically saying, you kind of take everybody around you that seriously. You can’t just dismiss them as a guy in the corner. You’ve got to see them for what they really are. If you don’t comprehend God, you don’t comprehend yourself, and you don’t comprehend the people around you, and what their potential is, and that is a really powerful thought. That’s a thought that’s worth fighting for. That’s a thought that’s worth dying for.

Hank Smith: 00:21:41 As I read Section 93, I’m seeing a lot of two words, light and truth and he talks about them together as though they go together, but they’re different. What do you usually teach about light and truth with Section 93?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:21:55 Well, there’s so much to deal with here. We skipped over light and truth because we had to … But go back to verse 24. When you think about it, this is the most useful definition of truth that you can find in any writing. Verse 24 says, “Truth is a knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come, and whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of the wicked one, who was a liar from the beginning. The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth and John bore record of Me saying he received a fullness of truth.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:22:27 Now, that seems pretty simple on the surface, but if you really understood things as they were, and as they are, and as they are to come, you’re powerful, but just imagine what it would be like to really know things as they are. To know what is actually happening around us and know what it actually means. That could be really powerful. The Savior is saying, “I’m trying to give you truth. Truth is to know what actually happened, what’s going to happen and what’s happening right now.” Maybe what’s happening right now is the most difficult one for us to grasp, for us to lay hold on.

Hank Smith: 00:23:06 I’m going to tell you a little bit of a story where … God speaks to man in His own language. So one time, I think the Lord spoke to me through professional basketball, because the Utah Jazz are my language. It was years and years ago, when TiVo had first come out. I don’t know if you guys remember watching commercials, and you had no choice but to just watch commercials. Do you remember this?

John Bytheway: 00:23:33 Oh, and some kids. Their kids are like, “What is this? What is this?”

Hank Smith: 00:23:37 My kids are-

John Bytheway: 00:23:38 For the first time in their life, they’re not on Netflix or something and they’re, “Something’s wrong with the TV.”

Hank Smith: 00:23:43 Who changed the channel? Why are they talking about laundry detergent? So TiVo had just come out. Our close friends, Lynn and Hailey had invited us over to watch a Jazz game, but they said, “Hey, we have this new thing called TiVo, and we can start it a little bit later and fast forward through all the commercials.” I remember seeing them fast forward to the commercials for the first time. It was like the millennium had come. I just was shocked. It was emotional.

Hank Smith: 00:24:15 Well, at one point during this whole experience, Lynn had left the room and his wife, Hailey went to fast forward through the commercials, but she pressed the wrong button and she went to the live … She hit live TV or whatever. Caught it all up to end the game had just ended and it showed the final score. I saw the final score and the Jazz had won and she said, “Oh,” and she comes back and she said, “You didn’t see that.”

Hank Smith: 00:24:46 I said, “Yes, I did. I know how it ends.” She said, “Well, don’t tell Lynn. He doesn’t know.” Then by that time, Hailey and my wife had left because they knew the end. So they’re like, “Well, no point in watching it.” So I’m sitting there and Lynn comes back into the room and he said, “Where’d the girls go?” I said, “I think they left.”

Hank Smith: 00:25:06 He said, “Oh, they think it’s over?” “Yeah, something like that.” The whole game, I’m watching it, knowing how it ends, knowing how it ends, and I’m watching him go, “Oh, oh, I don’t think … He would turn to me, he says, “Do you think they’re going to win?” I say, “I have faith. I believe.” Because I knew the end and you’re right, Casey.

Hank Smith: 00:25:29 When you know the future. I think God spoke to me and said, “This is how I view life. I see the end. That’s why I don’t get very stressed.” I’ve never prayed to God and said, “I don’t know how this is going to work,” and He’s saying, “We don’t either. We’re stressing up here as well as you down there.”

Hank Smith: 00:25:49 When I knew the end, yes, I felt bad some times, because my friend Lynn, he was doubting and struggling and wondering, but I knew the end, and I knew he’d be okay in the end. So it made it … I know it’s kind of an odd story, but it made it so I was able to be kind of calm and collected and help him through it. Then he was really mad at the end when I told him I already knew. So when Casey, when you say truth is knowledge as things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come, there is great power in God when you start to think about all He knows.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:26:30 I do this little exercise. I keep a journal, I’m not great. I do the best I can, but when I’m really stressed, I will pull out my journal and I’ll look at what I was stressed out about a year ago. Most of the time, what I was really stressed out about was no big deal. It resolved itself, it came through. It was just the anxiety of being in the moment.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:26:52 I think the Savior and revealing this truth to us to is saying, “Hey, I know what’s going to happen, and it’s going to be okay.” Sometimes you need to step out of the complexity that swirls around you at all times, and the truth is like John said, you look down the road and say, “This is all going to work out.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:27:10 We believe in who God is and we know what He is, and we know how He cares about us and that allows us to have the faith to know that it’s going to be okay. That even in your darkest moment, you know that eventually things are going to be all right. Whether it’s just the situation will resolve itself, or, hey, someday I’m going to be resurrected and this stuff will be over. There’s a way out of our problems and our complexity.

Hank Smith: 00:27:38 There’s a verse in Revelation where says God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Kind of telling us a little bit of the future, and giving us that power that He has. Any more about light and truth, Casey? It just keeps going.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:27:53 Well, let’s do this. Jump down to verse 41, and this is where Section 93 seems a little weird. He’s teaching are these phenomenal cosmic truths and then all of a sudden, it switches to the mundane. It’s like He’s just barely said, every spirit of man was innocent from the beginning. God having [inaudible 00:28:12].” This goes back to that statement John made. Is mankind depraved? God says, “No, they’re innocent. They start from the beginning.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:28:18 In verse 41, it seems like He really does a U-turn and instead of talking about all these cosmic truths, starts talking to the people that are seeing this revelation. “I say unto you, My servant, Frederick G. Williams, you’ve continued under this condemnation,” verse 42, why is he condemned? “You have not taught your children light and truth, according to the commandments, and the wicked one hath powers yet over you. This is the cause of your affliction. And I give unto you, which shall be delivered, you should set in order your own house, for there are many things that are not right in your house.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:28:49 So light, truth, knowledge, cosmology, the basis of what a human is, the Savior basically says, “The reason why I’m telling you this is so you can teach it to your children.” He’s saying, “Your biggest responsibility here is to set your own house in order and you haven’t been teaching this to your children.” So I’m not saying you can sit down with your kids and go through Truman Madsen’s q&a about what philosophically is answered in this section, but can you sit your kid down and say, “Look, there’s something really special about you, and what’s special about you is that you’ve always existed and Heavenly Father gave you to us to be your caretaker for the next little while.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:29:28 We’re going to mess up and we’re going to make mistakes and we’re going to have problems and there’s going to be ups and downs, but Heavenly Father wanted us to nurture you because you have the potential to be something really, really wonderful and really, really great. That you’re an eternal being and you’re special.” The thematic tie between everything that comes after verse 41 and everything that comes before sometimes seems weak, but when you look at Heavenly Father saying, I’m teaching you the most profound and important things you need to know about being a human.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:30:01 Then He turns to Frederick and then if you jump down, He does the same thing with Sidney Rigdon and then with Joseph Smith himself, verse 45 and Newel K. Whitney in verse 50. He’s basically saying, “This is stuff that every child needs to know.” How much of a difference would it make, if every single person on earth really believed the statement, I am a child of God, and He has sent me here.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:30:28 There’s so many people that just struggle through their lives, wondering what the purpose is and what they’re supposed to do. We sing those little phrases in one of our primary hymns, and don’t realize how transformative it is to know that-

John Bytheway: 00:30:41 Absolutely, because we really believe it. It’s not a child of God, like George Washington is the father of our country. It’s not a metaphor. He’s the Father of our spirits, and that is theological dynamite that our kids are in there singing the other room. That means you can pray to Him. He’s your Father, He loves you and it just changes everything.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:31:04 Well, and not just that, it also turns our experience down here on earth, especially if you’re a parent, even if you’re not a parent, to help us understand what God is like. I remember my daughter came home from school once and she was just sitting in the corner crying. It was because she got sent to thinking time. She got in trouble in class and got sent to thinking time, and she started crying.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:31:31 I was like, “Honey, what’s the matter?” I’m trying to comfort her. She goes, “Well, I thought that if you thought I was a bad kid, you wouldn’t love me anymore.” I remember sitting down and having one of those father moments where I was like, “Look, as long as you continue existing, we are going to love you. If you’re a serial killer, we’ll love you. You can be as bad as you want to be and we’ll love you. Don’t worry about our love. That’s intrinsic. The moment that I knew you were coming to earth, before you came out of your mom’s belly, I loved you and I’ll always love you.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:32:07 To take that idea and to apply it to God really is transformative too, because there are people like, “God hates me or God doesn’t know me.” Section 93 is saying, God is fatherhood. Like the type of love that you feel for a child down here on earth that your own child is the type of love that God feels for you. It’s not arbitrary. He’s not tossing you around like some statue that He sculpted and He’s ready to throw out into the trash. You’re literally His flesh and blood and that creates this kind of bond between you and Heavenly Father that really is powerful, and really does change your relationship when you think about it.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:32:48 That when you make a mistake, you think, Heavenly Father wants me to do better, but he still loves me. I haven’t lost God’s love because I did this, but sometimes when you get chastised a little bit, like these people were, like Joseph Smith was, you also don’t look at it as something that God is doing because He’s mean or tyrannical. A good parent, and God’s the greatest parent, a parent chastises because they’re trying to correct something that might hurt you. They’re trying to stop you from doing something that could hurt you down the road.

Hank Smith: 00:33:19 Now, and this is the First Presidency and the bishop.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:33:25 These are good people, but the Lord is saying, “Hey, I’ve given you such an important responsibility. Don’t let it overwhelm your most important responsibility, which is your families. Make sure they’re okay. Joseph, the next time we take off to Missouri, make sure Emma has a good place to stay and that she’s okay, and that your children are safe.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:33:42 It’s so easy for us in a church where we’re so involved, to spend another half hour or a few more minutes on our lesson, and neglect the child that’s sitting right next to us that needs somebody to love them. I think the gospel is engineered to try and help us be good parents.

Hank Smith: 00:34:05 I’ve noticed he says in verse 36, “The glory of God is intelligence, light and truth. I want you to become like Me, so you have to,” verse 37, “As you become more like Me, you will forsake sin. You will forsake the evil one.” I’ve often told my students that keeping away from sin is wonderful. It’s a great thing to say, “I want to do that, but I’m not going to do that. I have self control.” It’s an even better place to get to when you say, “I don’t want to sin.”

Hank Smith: 00:34:41 What is it? Mosiah 5, “The Spirit has brought a mighty change in us and we have lost the disposition to do evil.” That seems to me what the Lord is saying here that as you become more like Me, sin will become less and less attractive to you.

John Bytheway: 00:34:59 There’s a great article a brother named Dennis Gaunt wrote in The New Era, “I think back in about 2013 and he said that mockers tend to focus on the word can’t. Why can’t you do that? Why can’t you do this on Sunday? Why can’t you do this before you’re married?” He said, “We’re much better off if we focus on the word won’t. I’ve thought about it. I consider I won’t do that. I choose not to.”

John Bytheway: 00:35:25 I like what you’re saying there, Hank, because I think as we grow, I think it’s evidence of kind of becoming … As the process of being born again, is that light and truth. What is that? Six, seven words. Light and truth forsake that evil one, and we start to just think differently. I know I have the option to do that, but I don’t really want to, and it’s not I can’t do it.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:35:50 The whole concept of light tying back to truth. Truth is knowing things as they were, as they are. If you’re in a room and all the lights are turned off, you have no truth basically, is what we’re saying. Light allows you to actually see things as they are, and to tie it to verse 37, the reason why you forsake the evil one is because you actually see what he is. Not as someone that’s attractive, but as someone that’s pretty pathetic when it comes down to it.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:36:15 Someone that’s petty, someone that’s insular, someone that is self centered, instead of being centered on making other people better. Sometimes, all you need to do is create an environment of light, and people will naturally see what exists around them. Hank, you and I have both … Well, all of us have done EFY and we’ve seen the effect that happens after a person’s spent a week studying the scriptures and going to classes.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:36:42 It’s like they needed to be taken out of their environment sometimes to know how dark it was. You put them in this environment where there’s light and truth. So Randy Bott, you probably know this story. Told this story, someone came up to him and asked how you change somebody that’s involved in bad things.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:37:00 He told the story where he’s playing football outside with his friends and as he’s playing football, it’s getting darker and darker and he runs to catch the football and doesn’t see this tree branch and hits into it, just gets laid out flat and asked to go in the house and get a band aid or something. He comes out and he notices that it is pitch black, and he calls to his friends and says, “Hey, somebody is going to get hurt. Why don’t you guys come in?”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:37:24 All of them say, “No, it’s fine,” and he realized it had gotten dark so gradually that they had adjusted to it. He couldn’t convince them to come in because they couldn’t see how dark it was. So he came up with an alternate strategy and instead, he said, “Let’s take a timeout. Everybody come in and get a drink.” Everybody came in and got some water, and then when they ran back out to play again, they saw how dark it was.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:37:45 He said, “All I needed to do was to bring them into an environment where there was light, and they realized on their own what darkness was.” So sometimes rather than going up to somebody and saying, “Hey, what you’re doing is wrong, and you’re going to get hurt.” Sometimes if you bring them into an environment of light, they’ll see what’s going on in their life, and they’ll change. You can get a person to come to church or go on a youth activity or maybe just invite them into a really good home, or send them to a youth conference where they get out of the regular environment.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:38:17 A lot of times they’ll naturally recognize and see and forsake the things in their life that are hurting them. Light exposes us to what we really are existing in and sometimes just bringing light into a person’s life is enough to change them.

Hank Smith: 00:38:36 Yeah, Casey, you pretty much quoted this section, verse 39, “Wicked one cometh and take it the way light and truth.” So I like how you quoted Randy there. You’ll probably do it gradually, through disobedience, through gradual disobedience. I’m going to slowly take away your light and truth, and you might not even notice. What is that? 2 Nephi … John, you’d know this. 2 Nephi-

John Bytheway: 00:39:00 28.

Hank Smith: 00:39:01 He leadeth them-

John Bytheway: 00:39:03 Carefully. Verse 21, and it’s poisoned by degrees in the Amalickiah and Lehonti story too in Alma 47. Just it’s subtle, and I like how Elder Bednar talk has about that most of the time, the light that we receive is gradual like dawn and we know the sun is coming in the same way. The exceptional stories of the one with huge bright intelligence all at once, but I like that idea in there, verse 39, of taking away the light suddenly and then you don’t see as well.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:39:47 Then verse 40, “But I’ve commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.” Create an environment in your home where there’s plenty of light and plenty of truth, and that as much as anything, helps a kid turn out okay.

Hank Smith: 00:40:00 Man, say that again. Create an environment…

John Bytheway: 00:40:04 Of light and truth.

Hank Smith: 00:40:06 Where there’s plenty light and plenty of truth-

John Bytheway: 00:40:08 I remember having a mom tell me that sometimes there’d be a big event in the news or something and they would say, “Okay, why did this happen? What choice did this person make? What consequences came from that and just instead of just saying, oh, the world’s so terrible, let’s look at this and look at what choices brought this.” I thought that’s a good way to help young people make sense of what brilliant it is. The gospel is not only the right way to live, but in a way it’s the easiest way live because you avoid so many bad, bad consequences and kind of pointing that out and putting it in the light. This is why this is … You will avoid some really bad consequences by staying in the light.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:40:57 Haven’t we all had that experience too, when we walked into someone’s house and you’ve kind of like felt the light. I remember when my wife and I were first married, going over to the home of this guy that trained me as a seminary teacher and just the feeling when I walked into his home and recognizing that’s the kind of home that I want to create. It’s a place of light and truth, and if there’s this home base where your own family can come and see things as they really were, are, and will be, it makes a big difference in helping them navigate when they get out into the complexities and dark shadows that sometimes surround the world around us. [crosstalk 00:41:42] between what we are and what Heavenly Father wants us to do, which is nurture other people.

Hank Smith: 00:41:47 I recently spent some time with the family of our executive producers Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and that’s the perfect way to describe it. As I spent time with them and their children and their grandchildren, there is a lot of light and truth just radiating and it comes from even grandparents. Grandma and grandpa Sorensen and others who continue to teach light and truth. Then I do my part as a parent and then the children do their part as a parent and it creates generations of light and truth that are powerful. Being around this group was a powerful testimony to how glorious the commandments are. It was a little taste of heaven, almost.

John Bytheway: 00:42:39 Hank, you used the word taste. Is it in Alma 32, 33? You have tasted this light. Actually it says that you can taste light, because here in Alma 32 is using the idea of this fruit, plant Christ in your heart it grows this, but then he actually says, you can taste the light.

Hank Smith: 00:43:02 That tastes good, that light.

John Bytheway: 00:43:04 Yes. Exactly.

Hank Smith: 00:43:08 Casey, from our knowledge, does the First Presidency and Bishop Whitney, do they go home to their families and decide that they’re going to do better there?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:43:20 Well, thematically the next section is Section 94. Section 94 and 95 talk about the Kirtland Temple. So you do get the sense that they do kind of get their house in order, and then the next thing the Savior says is, “I want you to build a house where everybody can kind of come together.” That if Section 93 is about creating the ideal home, well, what’s the most ideal of homes?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:43:43 It’s a temple, a house where these truths and ideas can be taught and shared with everybody. Again, that idea of … I put up a picture of the celestial room in the temple and I told my students, “Pretend for just a moment that you didn’t grow up in the church and you’ve never been to the temple and you’re just seeing this picture for the first time. What would it look like?” The answer that almost everybody gave was, “It looks like a family room. It looks like you could set down a game board on top of one of those tables and start playing a board game together as a group, or you’re sitting in a circle having a conversation.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:44:22 It’s interesting that based on our beliefs, Latter-day Saints conceptualize the temple, which represents the presence of God as this really homey room. There’s not soaring arches and stained glass windows. It’s very homey and very comfortable and very safe in that sense. Gosh, I, like I said, love the idea that the Savior is basically saying in essence, I’m like you and Heavenly Father is like you as well. He’s a Father that’s concerned and cares about you. There’s this quote by President Oaks that I share sometimes with this.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:45:01 He says, “Our theology begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them. Under the merciful plan of the Father, all this is possible through the atonement of the only begotten of the Father, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and as earthly parents, we participate in the gospel plan by providing mortal bodies for the spirit children of God. The fullness of eternal salvation is a family matter.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:45:23 Our theology begins and ends with heavenly parents. That’s how we think of God. That’s how we conceptualize God. The temple is God’s house, and if we’re talking about like we were a few moments ago, entering into a home and just feeling light and truth there, that’s also what we feel when we go in the temple. The temple’s our Father’s home. It’s where we should feel most comfortable because ultimately that’s what eternity is like.

John Bytheway: 00:45:50 Beautiful.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:45:51 Let me point out one last thing. Verse 53, you can take a look at them. He says, “Verily I say unto you, it’s My will that you should hasten to translate My scriptures and obtain the knowledge of history, of countries, of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion.” In other words, this is going to sound strange too, but when you’re sitting there helping your child with their homework, you’re also teaching light and truth.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:46:19 Going back to that old Brigham Young statement that the gospel embraces all truth. Everything that’s true, we’re good with. So it’s not just that you’re doing the Lord’s work when you’re reading scriptures or praying with your kids. When you’re sitting there doing homework with your kids, you’re worshiping in a sense, and when you take your kids to a good movie that uplifts and instructs them, that is spreading light and truth.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:46:46 That’s all stuff that’s helpful. If you don’t have any kids, but you’re serving diligently and in a calling … I have a wonderful sister-in-law who teaches elementary school kids. She doesn’t have any kids of her own, but she spends all of her days, all of her time, teaching light and truth to third and fourth graders. That is a form of worship as far as I’m concerned, because I think when Heavenly Father thinks of His titles, it goes Father and then teacher probably number two.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:47:16 When we try to think of what Jesus did in this life, we like to talk about how he was a carpenter, but He was really a teacher. A person that teaches and teaches light and truth is also doing God’s work and worshiping God.

Hank Smith: 00:47:30 This kind of brings us full circle with your studies in education. Education has always been a part of the restoration, hasn’t it?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:47:39 Yeah. One of the titles for the Kirtland Temple was a house of learning and they thought of it first and foremost as a school. They just didn’t quite know what school was going to be like until they got there and Heavenly Father endowed them with power, gave them the knowledge that they needed, but going back to the school of the prophets, which takes place right before this, learning is worship. Teaching is worship. That if worship is emulation and God is the ultimate teacher, then that’s what it means to be like God, is that you’re always teaching, improving and helping someone else.

Hank Smith: 00:48:14 Joseph Smith had a vision for the university in Nauvoo and a university in Zion, and I’m sure Brigham young continued that out in out west.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:48:24 Yeah. The first building built in every Latter-day Saint settlement was a schoolhouse. We got around to building temples because they’re grand and majestic a little bit later, but the first thing was we had to make sure that our children were learning light and truth. That’s a theme you can follow all the way through the Doctrine and Covenants.

John Bytheway: 00:48:43 I remember President Nelson giving a talk at BYU and I was there and he said, “The main difference between hoping to make a difference in the world and actually making a difference in the world is in education.” Does that ring a bell? That idea to keep learning, and I love that what you said about like Brigham Young statement about if it’s true, it belongs to Mormonism. I thought is the way I heard it. We’re not afraid of science. Science had stopped changing because I had a biology textbook that cost me a hundred bucks and when I gave it back to the BYU bookstore, they gave me five for it.

John Bytheway: 00:49:21 Why? Because it changed, and it wasn’t true anymore, but I set my scriptures on the shelf and they’re still true. So I tell my students, “We’re not afraid of anything that we discover in science because we embrace all truth.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:49:39 President Uchtdorf said, “To Latter-day Saints, education’s not just a good idea. It’s a commandment.” This is one of those sections where you get that, that we’re not afraid of a person knowing too much. We’re afraid of them knowing too little, but again, it’s light and truth. As long as you’re learning things that are true, it’s always going to be edifying to you. The danger lies sometimes in learning things that aren’t true.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:50:02 Joseph Merrill was a physicist and he was basically saying, “I’ve studied physics and I can’t figure out how all this came together without some sort of divine mind behind it.” That the more you study science, true science, real science, it’ll increase your faith. It’ll make you look at the wonder and beauty and complexity of the universe and just say, “There’s no way that this happened by accident. This is a beautiful creation of a master artist.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:50:30 So that’s another great tradition, I think you could trace back to section 93, but a whole bunch of revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants where the Lord said, “Get out there and learn stuff. Explore the world around you and embrace it. It’s beautiful. I made it for you.” Learning how the world works is learning another part of godhood.

Hank Smith: 00:50:50 One of my favorite gospel books was either about or written by Henry Eyring senior. I think it’s Reflections of a Scientist or The Faith of a Scientist. Both of those were either about him or by him and he says that same thing. I want to learn more. Here he is, probably should have been a Nobel prize winning chemist and he talks about how God must think it’s so darling, him and his chemistry set and how he’s trying so hard that it’s got to be so fun to have him … He said, what is it? See if I can get the quote right. “Our knowledge must look like wide eyed awe of a child to Him.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:51:36 Oh, look, honey. The kids landed on the moon. Isn’t that wonderful? But someday they’ll master interstellar traveling, just like we have. I love that idea that a biology class can be as edifying as a theology class can be, if you just look at it through the right lens and take the truth from it that you need to take.

John Bytheway: 00:51:56 Oh, I was thinking about the story that President Nelson, President Russell M. Nelson likes to tell about having revelation in the middle of heart surgery about how to repair this heart. It wasn’t the Lord saying, “Oh, just have faith.” The Lord taught him truth and taught him a way to do that. It’s such a cool story because that was pure intelligence and it was science-type intelligence. It was medicine, it was anatomy-type intelligence in that moment. It’s a cool story.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:52:30 Isn’t it cool to have a medical doctor be the head of the church? In most churches, the heads are guys like you and me, that teach theology and be ourselves in that. It’s just great to be part of a religion where being smart is recognized as a really, really great thing, that education’s great and get out there and educate people and educate yourself and it’ll be a blessing to everybody around you. That the glory of God is intelligence or light and truth. So get as much light and truth as you can from every possible source that you can. The church helps a ton when it comes to religious light and truth, but there’s other places to go where you can learn light and truth about how the world works.

Hank Smith: 00:53:11 You can thirst after it. We’re not just talking about degrees here, like college degree, we’re talking about anywhere. Other sources as well.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:53:20 One thing I’ve noticed going through the Doctrine and Covenants the cycle is how often the Savior says that to them. He says it in Section 88, He says it at the end of Section 90, and there’s a dozen other places where He says, “Get out there and learn stuff.” Joseph Smith and the first generation of the church had one thing in common. They were all intellectually curious about the world around them. It’s funny that a couple months after this is given, Joseph Smith … When you get to Section 111, not a couple months, a couple of years, but Joseph Smith goes to Salem and we don’t talk about the fact that while he’s in Salem, he’s running from museum to museum. He’s learning as much as he can because he hasn’t been there before. He was just an intellectually curious person, and that’s a great attribute. That’s something that all of us should seek to cultivate in ourselves.

Hank Smith: 00:54:06 Excellent. Let’s ask our last question, I think. So Casey, you’ve been studying the history of the church, these sections, the history of church education for over two decades now. I know that because we started just about the same time. Share with us, maybe just your personal thoughts about Joseph Smith, his contemporaries and the history of the church.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:54:36 Boy, that is a big topic to try and capture. I will say this. I just got back from Kirtland. It’s been a year since anybody’s able to travel and my first major trip was to go to Kirtland. Part of the reason why I went there was to visit this guy named Karl Ricks Anderson who lives in Kirtland and is a tour guide there. Probably the best tour guide in the world when it comes to Kirtland. To think Karl’s been state president, a regional representative, and is now a patriarch in the church, but not many people know who he is.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:55:20 I would say one of the beauties of the gospel is that for every Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon and Newel K. Whitney, there are tens of thousands of people out there that are doing everything they can to live the gospel and strive to make a difference that really do make a difference, but might not wind up in the pages of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:55:43 On Memorial Day, I took my kids to this town where my parents grew up and there’s a grave there marked John R. Murdock, who’s the guy that Section 99 was received on behalf of. It’s a really short section, but if you go back and study his life, he made so many contributions and did so many profound and amazing things. We sometimes overlook those men and women that don’t make the front pages of the scripture sometimes.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:56:10 I would say to every single person out there, you’re making a difference and even if there’s not a big recognition for what you’re doing, you’re making a profound difference. I talked to the first of this about the first seminary teacher. Nobody knows his name. He made a huge difference. Changed the lives of millions of people. Everybody out there is important and that as much as anything is freeing in the gospel is the ability to look at people around you and see the best that exists.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:56:45 It’s so easy for us to become cynical and just think people are the worst and why is everybody so terrible, but we need to recognize how good everybody is around us and how much potential they have and how wonderful they are. We need to see goodness where it’s at and recognize that truth and light is not just a knowledge of things as they are, and as they were as they will be, but it’s genuine goodness.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:57:13 Being like God, isn’t just knowing everything fact wise, it’s knowing perfect empathy and sympathy and kindness. That that’s what we should aspire to be. That there’s people out there that don’t have PhDs, but boy, do they have a high quotient of emotional intelligence and know how to help among people. There’s some people out there that might not ever have the means or the way to attend a university, that understand more about this universe and how it works in a profound way than you really can’t get in a classroom.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:57:43 So I would say in embracing learning, we not only embrace that kind of comes from a book type of learning, but the early members of the gospel also embraced the idea of experiencing and loving and fully living life in a way that you engage with other people and learn from them as well. I learned so much from the people around me and I’m so grateful for them and I hope everybody gets their moment with Heavenly Father, where He gets to say, “Well done thou good and faithful servant,” whether that person’s a Joseph Smith or whether that person was just a really great teacher that stated their post and taught light and truth for their entire life. In the end, both will have made a really critical contribution to the kingdom and both deserve the same reward, and that’s my spiel.

Hank Smith: 00:58:29 That’s excellent. Absolutely excellent. I love Section 93 now. I knew a little bit about it before coming in, but nothing like you’ve shown us. So John, any closing, parting thoughts?

John Bytheway: 00:58:46 No, I thought that was a great way to summarize, especially for your average … That was great. Average grandmas and grandpas out there that maybe don’t have all the … Or like the John R Murdock’s who have made such a contribution, and to them it was their family and that’s what this section says to take care of your families. Teach them the truth, but take care of them and that’s what’s important.

Hank Smith: 00:59:14 I have a quote here from president Spencer W. Kimball. He says, “That is the answer. Family life, home life, home evenings, dedicated selfless parents. That is the way the Lord ordained our lives to be.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:59:29 Can I add in just one thing real quick?

Hank Smith: 00:59:34 Please.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:59:34 At the last conference, I was really moved when Elder Gong talked about changes in the church and he said that over half the church is single. Over half the adults in the church are single. I just want to impress on everybody the idea that family is more than just mom and dad, son, and daughter, that your family ultimately is everybody around you and the people that you love and make connections with. So if you’re not married and you don’t have kids, you’re still part of a family and you have an obligation to help where you can help, to lift where you can lift and to spread light and truth to all people that you connected with, whatever your family looks like.

Hank Smith: 01:00:13 Well said, well said. We want to thank Dr. Casey Griffiths for being with us today. We want to thank all of you for listening and staying with us. We’re grateful to our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and we have a great production crew. We mention them every week because they are doing so much. Their names are David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Kyle Nelson, Will Stockton and Maria Hilton. Thank you to our incredible team, and we hope that you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.