Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway, we love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:19 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I am here with my indomitable co-host, John Bytheway. We want to mention that you can find us on social media. Please come over to our Instagram, Facebook accounts. You can get show notes and transcripts at followhim.co, not com, John, followhim.co.

John Bytheway: 00:00:48 Just co.

Hank Smith: 00:00:48 Just co  . . . .co. And of course we’d love for you to rate and review our podcast. That makes us very happy when we get good reviews. John, you and I rarely got second dates in college, but we have someone who came back, a woman who came back to talk to us a second time. Who’s with us today?

John Bytheway: 00:01:11 Yes. And of course I’m so excited about this because we had so much wonderful feedback when we had Barbara Morgan Gardner on before. And the last time I read a bio from the BYU website, this time I’m going to read one from the back of her book. It’s a little shorter if that’s okay, Barbara.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:01:29 Great.

John Bytheway: 00:01:29 The Priesthood Power of Women: In the Temple, Church, and Family. And this was, oh, I want to look this up real quick, published in 2019. So it’s kind of hot off the press. Barbara Morgan Gardner is an Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University. She holds a master’s degree in Educational Leadership and Foundations, and a PhD in Instructional Psychology, and she did postdoctoral work at Harvard University. She was Institute Director in Boston, Massachusetts, serving more than 100 universities and colleges in the area and acting as chaplain at Harvard and MIT. She continues to serve as the Chaplain-at-Large, in higher education for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She also serves on the BYU Interfaith Outreach Council. She and her husband, Dustin Gardner live in Utah, and we’re really so excited to have you back. Welcome. Thank you for coming back.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:02:23 Thanks. It’s such a pleasure to be here with you guys. My life is better being with you. So, thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:02:28 We’re grateful you would associate with us, Barbara.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:02:31 It’s rough, it’s rough but I’m willing.

Hank Smith: 00:02:35 John, that book, what’s the title of it again?

John Bytheway: 00:02:39 It’s called The Priesthood Power of Women.

Hank Smith: 00:02:42 And Barbara didn’t ask us to do this, but I just want to say this book has changed a lot of lives, just giving people… Well, I think it was Elder . . .  President Oaks said his favorite talks were when someone took an old topic that he already knew about and showed him new things about it. Well, the priesthood is an old topic in the Church, but Barbara will show you new things, and it’s page after page of new things you’ve never known. So we’re just going to throw the followHIM stamp of approval on her book.

John Bytheway: 00:03:22 And I think what you’re saying, I like how you said that, Hank, but it’s kind of like, you read something and you just go, “Oh, well of course I should have known that type of a thing.” And it settles inside. I like that. It helps you know yeah, that’s true.

Hank Smith: 00:03:36 Yeah. So it started to gush there, Barb, a little bit.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:03:40 Thank you. I never intended to write a book. I was intending to help people find answers to questions and help them stay strong and active in the Church and understand the priesthood, especially how it relates to women and the book–the book ended up being the result.

John Bytheway: 00:03:56 Just kind of formed out of that. A lot of books start that way.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:04:00 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:04:02 Yeah. Well, let’s jump into our lesson this week, Barb. We have a single section. We are in Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Why don’t we back up as much as you want?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:04:17 Okay. When I think about Section 84, having taught Seminary and Institute at BYU, when I think of this section, I immediately think priesthood. I mean, it says right in the section heading, “This is a revelation on priesthood.” And so traditionally, anytime we’re talking about a revelation on priesthood, we have thought of men. And there’s a reason for that as well in Section 84, because this section actually comes in September of 1832, and just nine months earlier in January of 1832, Joseph receives a revelation from the Lord and he’s sending all these 24 different missionaries throughout the United States. And if you guys remember just a few sections there, that we had these missionaries just listed one by one, and here’s your companionship, and this is where you’re going, and sometimes good luck and figure it out while you’re going.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:05:02 But now these missionaries have all returned and they are in Kirtland with Joseph Smith now, and they’re basically kind of giving their missionary homecoming discussion with the prophet. And so it’s in this setting that Joseph is going to receive this revelation now known as Revelation on Priesthood. It’s important to know though that this revelation in Section 84 is actually a compilation of three revelations. So it’s received on September 22nd and then 23rd, Joseph calls it again in section heading, he says, “A season of joy,” but actually what you’re seeing is three revelations eventually tied together. So the first part of this revelation in Section 84 goes from about verses one through… So The Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood. So you’re going to be looking at 1 through about 43, 44, and then the next two revelations are going to be received the next day. And they’re going to finish up the rest of this section.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:05:53 So a lot of times when we look at this, there’s kind of a break in the section as you’re reading it, and that’s actually purposeful because it has three revelations combined into one. So Joseph’s receiving this revelation in front of all these elders, and it’s interesting because you have the writings of some of them later saying, this is what we saw. And we saw Joseph’s counselings and they described his cadence and how everything was being received by the Lord. But none of them were actually writing it down. So in the process, Oliver Cowdery comes in and he sees this revelation taking place, and he’s like, “Wait, is anybody writing this down? Because this sounds pretty important.” Nobody was, and so at that point, Oliver kind of takes up his pen and starts being described for this revelation. Why these revelations? Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:06:36 Somebody should do some writing. That’s so funny. All right. And you tied this usually to Section 75, isn’t that right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:06:48 I tied this section to many sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. I mean, if I were to look at the Doctrine and Covenants and I were to say, “Okay, what do you need to know in preparation for this revelation? What sections should you read before you read this?” I would say strongly that you need to read Section 2, because Section 2 is going to be talking about Elijah and the temple and the work of sealing. You need to read and understand Section 13, because now we’re talking about the priesthood being restored, right? We could read Section 25, which President Nelson told the women of the Church to study as they’re trying to understand more about priesthood. You can read Section 27. I mean, you could go on and on. You could read Section 36 where the temple is first mentioned in Doctrine and Covenants, and then [Section] 38, where we’re talking about “being endowed with power.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:07:36 I mean, there’s so many. Section 76, you’re talking about The Great Vision. Then 82, right before this is going to be a great revelation also is going to be mentioning priesthood and Zion and temple work. But then this section and the reason why I bring up all those other sections before this is because this section is a temple section. So when I teach this and when I study this, it’s absolutely imperative that we understand that Joseph Smith was receiving revelation regarding the temple. So, if you see right off the bat, verse 1, we’re seeing that he’s talking to these six elders, but verse 2, we’re seeing Mount Zion and New Jerusalem. Then you turn the page, this new Jerusalem is going to be built on the temple  lot. That’s verse 3, then verse 4, you see even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. And then you start seeing verse 5, “built unto the Lord,” the Lord’s house, and you continue on this. And then it talks about this Holy Priesthood.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:08:31 So it’s absolutely imperative that we’re talking about this Holy Priesthood, that we understand that we’re talking about the Patriarchal Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. So often we talk about the administrative function of the priesthood, and that’s going to be Section 18 of the Doctrine and Covenants, where we’re talking about the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, and the administrative function. That’s Peter, James, and John coming to Joseph Smith, right? And revealing or giving to him the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood. This priesthood– the Melchizedek Priesthood, the highest or the Melchizedek priesthood, the keys are going to be received in the Kirtland Temple. And so this is going to be following this revelation where Joseph receives these keys, as a Patriarchal Order to the Priesthood is referring to husband and wife, women and men going to the temple and receiving their priesthood together, as President Benson would talk about.

Hank Smith: 00:09:17 I’ve heard you talk about this before that there’s two, not two priesthoods, but two priesthood-  What did you…

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:09:25 Structures per se.

Hank Smith: 00:09:26 Two priesthood structures.

John Bytheway: 00:09:27 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:09:28 Yeah. For right now, I think it’s important that we just understand that there are two priesthood structures, Adam and Eve enter into the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood. This highest order of the priesthood continues on from Abraham to Sarah, and then it continues on through Moses. And as we know from the Book of Exodus, and we’re going to see this in this section as well, when you look at verse 23, for example, he talks about this priesthood and he says, “Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God, but they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. Therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fullness of his glory. Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst and the Holy Priesthood also.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:10:10 So we’re referring specifically to this Holy Priesthood, it’s the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood, it’s the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood. So we have to understand going into this section that this Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood was taken away from the people during the time of Moses. It returns again during the time of Christ. Although during the time of Christ, according to Elder McConkie, Christ set up his Church and the administrative or hierarchical function of the priesthood. Or in other words, he has First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve. So it’s a hierarchical function structure. In a patriarchal order, you’re going to see family, you’re going to see the Old Testament, you’re going to see more temple. When you’re talking about administrative or, of ecclesiastical function, you’re going to see a First Presidency, a Quorum of the Twelve, and you’re going to see bishops in our day–stake presidents.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:10:53 So when Joseph Smith is now restoring the gospel of Jesus Christ, he is receiving both simultaneously, he’s receiving the hierarchical or administrative order of the priesthood. He’s going to be called as the Prophet of the Church, First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve, were going to be established, et cetera. But he’s also going to be told by the Lord that they need to gather Israel and that they need to move to the Ohio. And the purpose of leaving to the Ohio is to be gathering and establishing the temple there. And he’s going to do the same thing and he’s moved on to Missouri. And then the temple is going to actually be built, and then revelations are going to be received in the Kirtland Temple. So there are two administrative structures of the church that are going to overlap, which is why in our day, you see the public is going to be the administrative, and you’re going to see more of the private, which is the patriarchal and it’s the temple.

Hank Smith: 00:11:38 So I should, in my mind, I’m not slow, but I just have to make sure I get it. I feel like I’m saying-

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:11:47 Yes, there’s a lot here.

Hank Smith: 00:11:48 Yeah, I feel like there’s a priesthood structure that runs the Church, and then there’s a priesthood structure that is going to be involved in my home and marriage and my temple covenants. And knowing me, I could probably get those confused and I bet people do that sometimes.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:12:10 Easily.

Hank Smith: 00:12:11 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:12:11 In fact, I’ll rebel that one of the things that he talks about is the Church right now is a scaffolding. What we had in the premortal life is going to be the patriarchal Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, Heavenly Parents reign in this premortal world. What we have on the earth is a structure of the Church that is supposed to be for the purpose of strengthening the family. What you see in the home is a patriarchal priesthood structure, right? So President Oaks talks about how there’s a difference between how the priesthood functions at church and how priesthood functions in the family. And that becomes extremely important. And then this life, we have a priesthood structure that’s public. President Ballard would say that this is a “scaffolding” right now that in the eternities we will be using the order of the priests–patriarchal priesthood. And this scaffolding right now is to help us prepare to live in families for eternity.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:13:01 We already kind of started there in verse 2. I would like to talk about temple. And I think also as we talk about this, a lot of people, I shouldn’t say a lot, there are a number of people who struggle with the idea of women and priesthood. And this becomes extremely important because as we understand the role of priesthood and understand those different priestess structures, that helps answer a lot of the questions that people have. So today we don’t have time to go into all of the intricacies of this, but for a simple answer to a lot of these is president Packer says, “True doctrine understood, changes attitude and behavior.” And I am one who studied the doctrine of the priesthood for many reasons, but one very important reason was because I heard enough people that were confused and disgruntled that I knew if they truly understood the doctrine of the priesthood, they wouldn’t be.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:13:50 That’s just kind of my understanding. There may be some, but the majority are going to say, “Oh my goodness, I had no idea.” Women really do have priesthood power. Women really do have priesthood authority. They aren’t ordained to a priesthood office in the Church structure, but when they enter the temple and they receive their endowments, when they make covenants with the Lord, they are endowed with priesthood power and priesthood authority. And understanding the difference between those two priesthood structures answers many questions that women have. So when a woman says, “Yes, when I go home,” somebody will say, “Aren’t you so sad that you don’t have the priesthood in your family?” And she’s a single woman, as President Nelson said recently, she says, “Oh, actually I do. I do have the priesthood in my family.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:14:29 If a mother, for example, her husband may be gone and the there’s a son who has been ordained to a priesthood office, and let’s say he holds it around the priesthood, who presides in the family, well, when the husband’s gotten the mother, of course she is presiding because she’s the mom, as she has made covenants with the Lord. And even if she hasn’t made covenants towards the relationship between a husband and wife, puts them in a leadership position with the children. So understanding a lot of these things answers the questions of presiding, it answers the questions of power and authority, why we do these things, but also helps us understand that the purpose of the priesthood is for the salvation of souls, that it’s not a war or a battle between men and women. It’s a synergistic approach that God has given to women and men in this church to unite together for the purpose of bringing all of our brothers and sisters back to our Heavenly Parents.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:15:22 So when we understand the priesthood and the responsibility behind it, all of us then are working together for the same purpose, which is to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life” of all of God’s children. That’s the purpose of the priesthood.

Hank Smith: 00:15:34 I love that. I have two sisters who are single parents, and it’s been said to them many times, right? “You don’t have the priesthood in the home.” When my sister’s son finally became a deacon, it was like, “Oh, the priesthood’s back in your home.” But yet she was endowed. She had the priesthood in her home the entire time, the power and authority of the priesthood. Maybe it’s because we, Barb, and you could probably speak to this as we go through the section, but maybe it’s because in the, I don’t know, the last, I don’t know however long we’ve said, we’ve just made men priesthood, we’ve just exchanged those two words. The men in the Church are the priesthood of the Church, right? But there was a time in the Church where not every man who got priesthood became an elder or bishop.

Hank Smith: 00:16:27 John, didn’t someone teach us earlier that you would have an entire congregation and two elders and a Bishop, right? Or two elders and a teacher in the whole thing.

John Bytheway: 00:16:38 Thank you. I remember, was it when Elder Oaks’ talk, when he said, “It’d be improper to say, ‘We’ll now have the priesthood pass the sacrament.’” Was it he who said that?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:16:48 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:16:49 Because no, that’s not what happens. There’s people who hold the priesthood might pass the sacrament, but referring, and those kinds of things are very helpful. Men are not the priesthood. And I thought that talk of Elder Oaks was wonderful where he said, “We talked about this phrase where… He said, “When a woman has set apart to do her calling or as a missionary, she is set apart with priesthood authority.” And then he said, “What other authority could it be?” And that was one of those moments where it will, of course, if you’re doing God’s work, you’re using the power of God, what would you call that?

Hank Smith: 00:17:26 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:17:27 And so on that, that becomes important because again, that’s the ecclesiastical structure that we’re talking about. When President Oaks says, “When women are set apart to a calling, they have priesthood authority and they have power because of their righteousness.” Well, what other priesthood authority would it be? That’s the authority of the priesthood that comes through the keys of one who is either a bishop or stake president, or in some ecclesiastical role. You don’t receive priesthood power in the temple through priesthood keys, you receive priesthood power and authority of the temple through your covenants. So it’s very different when you look at how this process is moving forward. And so understanding again, that relationship is important. That’s why, for example, you’re getting into… Look back to Section 84, we’re talking about Moses and how he sees this priesthood, and you see this whole father to son relationship.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:18:12 And I remember one day I was asked to explain this, and I could not explain it. This idea of patriarchal order for some women is very difficult because patriarchal seems a little bit patronizing as if men again are in charge. And I love President Benson, where he says, “We call it the patriarchal order of the priesthood because it’s passed on from father to son, but that does not mean that it’s not a family priesthood.” He actually says,  “Adam and Eve together entered into this patriarchal order. Both of them have the power and authority associated with the patriarchal order of the priesthood.” And he says a better term for it would be familial governments rather than patriarchal priesthood, which is really a beautiful statement from him.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:18:50 That comes by the way from a great talk that I highly recommend to anybody who is studying this subject. It’s what I wish you would teach your children about the temple from President Benson. Elder Bednar quoted heavily out of that talk in his last talk on the temple and trying to help us understand the temple better. That’s a heavily quoted talk. It was given the Logan Tabernacle, I believe, years ago but it’s a phenomenal talk on this topic.

John Bytheway: 00:19:15 I can’t be exalted without my wife. She can’t be exalted without me. This is all about family. And so no wonder Satan is trying to divide so much because we need each other.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:19:27 The talk is titled, “What I Hope You Teach Your Children and Grandchildren About the Temple” is April, 1985 in the Logan Temple. And he says this, “Adam and his descendants entered into the Priesthood Order of God. Today, we would say that they went to the house of the Lord and received their blessings. The order of the priesthood as spoken of in the scriptures is sometimes referred to as the patriarchal order because it came down from father to son. But this order is otherwise described in modern revelation as an order of family government, where a man and a woman enter into a covenant with God, just as did Adam and Eve sealed for eternity to have posterity and to do the will and the work of God throughout their mortality.” It’s similar to what Elder McConkie teaches about the Abrahamic Covenant. He says, “There will be no Abrahamic Covenant if there was no Sarah.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:20:17 It’s a couple, it’s a family relationship. I mean, we could say it’s the Abrahamic and Sarah covenant, if we really wanted to, but scripturally, we say it’s Abrahamic Covenant. When you’re talking about the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood, and you’re talking about sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, we’re talking about family. We’re talking about the gathering of Israel. We’re talking about creating Zion. We’re talking about becoming gods and goddesses. We’re talking about, as we get into Section 128 later on in the Doctrine and Covenants, they’ve received their exaltation, meaning husband and wife, they become gods and goddesses. Husbands and wives together become that. And so regardless of marital status right now, for a man or a woman to enter into the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood and become gods and goddesses, they have to make and keep these covenants whether in this life or in the next, which is absolutely significant.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:21:05 We are looking at Section 84 because these promises that are going to be given to both women and men are only associated with those who enter into this order of the priesthood. Understanding that order of the priesthood is a lot more important than people realize. You have to understand the temple in order to understand this section, but as paying the price, as President Nelson says, “To spend time in the temple where the Lord does his teaching,” is critical to understanding Section 84.

John Bytheway: 00:21:30 Yeah. This would change everything. It changes your paradigm because you would say, “Oh just like the Bishop presides over the ward, the father presides over the family.” And that’s not the case. You’re taking the structural priesthood, the administrative part and moving it over into the family, and you’re saying, “No, that’s not how it works.” You need to understand this patriarchal priesthood, this familial government.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:21:58 Yeah. I mean, you’d look at some of these things and again, this is a little bit hard because some things we would like to discuss in the temple that perhaps are sacred and difficult to discuss outside of the temple. But if you carefully look at the section for those of you who have received your endowment, and for those of you who haven’t, you can still see through the temple live some of these things just from the Old Testament and from the priesthood in other areas. But when you think about verse 19, for example, President Nelson says that both women and men are not using the priesthood privileges that could be theirs. And then he tells them to study 19 through 22 specifically. It’s not just men who aren’t understanding the priesthood privileges, women aren’t. And where do women receive their priesthood privileges? In the temple, right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:22:36 So this is all temple. So you go to verse 19, “The greater priesthood administers the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.” So some people would look at that and say, “Well, we’re talking about keys, so that’s definitely got to be men, right? Because keys are men.” No, keys are not men. This isn’t talking about a position in the Church. They’re not called to be an apostle. They’re not called to have a presiding stewardship. They’re given the key of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. In fact, President Benson in that same talk says, “Both women and men received the key of the mysteries of the kingdom of God and the temple.” So this becomes extremely important in verse 19, for example, because this talks about this priesthood structure, and we’re talking again about this patriarchal [order] of priesthood structure, but we’re talking about in verse 19, where President Nelson recently asked both the women and the men of the Church to study Section 84.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:23:34 In fact, to the men of the Church and the Priesthood Session of the Church, he actually said to the men that both women and men do not understand their priesthood privileges. And he asked them to study. And if you go to the footnote, he asked the men to study  Section 84 verses 19 through 22. Then in 2019, President Nelson gave the same invitation to the women of the Church and asked them to read Section 84 to better understand their priesthood power and authority. So this becomes extremely important. President Nelson and in the last few years has invited both the men and the women of the Church to study Section 84 in regards to the priesthood. So what are these privileges that we may be missing? Well, in verse 19, the Lord talks about, “The key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:24:19 So for many women and men, sometimes we think about keys, we think about presiding, In this case, we’re not talking about presiding at all. We’re talking about a blessing that comes from one who makes him keeps temple covenants. And so, for example, in verse 19, “That key of the knowledge of God”, President Benson actually says, “When you attend the temple and perform ordinances that pertain to the house of the Lord, certain blessings come to you.” He gives a few and then he says, “In the temple, you will receive the key of the knowledge of God. You will learn how you can be like Him, even the power of godliness will be manifest to you.” So when we look at this, I hope that we understand the temple and you think about what the prophets and the leaders of the Church have taught about the temple. The temple is where we receive the knowledge of God. It’s where we receive and have the key of the knowledge of God, and where we learn to become like God and have, therefore, the power of godliness in our lives.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:25:10 And then we continue on talking about the ordinances and the authority given specifically in regards to the temple. And then you see in verse 22, For without this, no man can see the face of God, even the father, and live.” And where are we taught to see the face of God? And where are we taught to be in his presence? Again, this is the temple, right? So this whole section is things that we’re missing. We’re talking about the temple, and that’s why we continue where we talked before about Moses. Moses lost these temple ordinances. Moses lost this power. The people lost this ability to see the face of God because they lost the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood. They no longer had the ability to enter into the temple and make and keep those sacred covenants associated with this Highest Order of the Melchizedek Priesthood. So then it’s the Lesser Order of the Priesthood then that we have, and we talk about that starting in verse 26.

Hank Smith: 00:25:55 Barb, how much do you think Joseph Smith… It says you can see the Lord laying the groundwork here. And I wonder if he’s saying these things, not quite understanding what they mean, right? Because he’s not going to have the Kirtland Temple for another… We’re four years away from the dedication of the Kirtland Temple still. So I wonder if he’s saying some of these things and he’s going, I can’t wait to find out what all this means, right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:26:23 I don’t want to say before Joseph, but talk about a mind-blowing experience on a regular basis. I mean, it’s so fascinating and he just keeps saying, we need to learn more, we need to learn more. And then Joseph actually says, “We cannot learn more about this Higher Order of the Priesthood until we build a temple. We have to build a temple in order to learn this.” But then I think for women, this becomes extremely important because the men receive their endowment in 1842. It’s six years after the keys are restored in the Kirtland Temple, right? Then finally, they’re starting to move to Nauvoo and Joseph, and some of the men, some elect men are receiving these keys, but Joseph says, “We cannot still have the fullness until the women receive this priesthood.” And it was because of that, that the Relief Society started.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:27:06 And the Relief Society is what prepares women to be able to enter the temple. And as you go through those early Relief Society minutes, Joseph is clearly helping the women to enter into the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood with the men. And he says, “The men can’t have it without the women, the women can’t have it without the men. And therefore we need both to enter into the temple.” He was so forward-thinking. In the book, Daughters in My Kingdom, Joseph has a statement, first of all, the key of knowledge. And then he says, “The purpose of organizing the Relief Society was to give… this is from Daughters in My Kingdom, was to give the women the responsibility to help each other prepare for greater blessings of the priesthood, found in the ordinances and covenants of the temple.” I wish I could pull out all these quotes right now, but this is a great place to find quotes and understanding of this is the book from the Church History Department. Well, actually I would give you two references. Actually, I can give you three references.

John Bytheway: 00:28:02 The book, Daughters in My Kingdom is one source?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:28:02 That’s one. That’s a great reference. Daughters in My Kingdom, that’s an official Church. Yeah. And then the other one is Women of the Covenant. It’s a story about the Relief Society. That’s another place where Joseph talks very specifically about the purpose of Relief Society and women and how they have to come in together to have the fullness of the priesthood. Actually, there are so many. President Benson actually talks about that same idea there. And then in the early minutes, Joseph Smith’s… What do they call them? Minutes. I was going to say the minutes of the Relief Society, Joseph Smith accounts to the women of Relief Society. You can actually find the minutes on the josephsmithpapers.org. There’s also a great book by Sheri Dew and Virginia Pearce Hinckley that also goes through carefully and discuss the minutes of that book as well that I would recommend

John Bytheway: 00:28:50 Okay, can you just kind of one more time restate the gist of that. We can’t keep-

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:28:56 So basically, there are two ideas. The first one is in order to receive the fullness of the priesthood, we must have a temple, right? So we have to have the temple in order to receive the patriarchal order of the priesthood. We cannot enter into the patriarchal priesthood unless we have both men and women together. And so the purpose of the Relief Society was to prepare the women to enter into the temple, which is why in the early days of Relief Society, they were called, these women were actually called priestesses and they were actually given that responsibility. These were women and men coming together in order to enter into the fullness of the priesthood. I mean, even just studying the scriptures, you can find so much more on this topic regarding women and men together. Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants talks about what we talked about before, “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end, therefore they shall be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:29:47 It’s talking about husband and wife. This whole section is about husband and wife and being sealed. Again, a man can’t be sealed and receive the patriarchal priesthood unless he has been sealed to a woman, neither can a woman to a man. It’s all throughout the scripture. Section 131 of the Doctrine and Covenants as well talks about verse two, “In order to enter into the highest, a man must enter into this Order of the Priesthood, meaning the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.” And then another name for the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage is the patriarchal priesthood. “And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom. He cannot have an increase.” So it’s this continuing on of this Holy Priesthood, it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance, and that talks more about the priesthood there.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:30:32 If you go through the Doctrine and Covenants, and you just follow through temple, sealings, marriage, endowments, and authority, and things of that nature, you’re going to see the progression between women and men and receiving their priesthood ordinances–sorry, their priesthood covenants–and ordinances associated with it. I recognize it, and talking about this, I get kind of excited about it, but when you start really looking at it, it becomes very clear what the Lord is trying to do that. The Lord is trying to create eternal families and the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood is how God creates eternal families. And so Section 84 is a temple section regarding how to create eternal families.

John Bytheway: 00:31:07 The women who were referred to as priestesses in some of the meetings?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:31:12 So women were actually referred to as deaconesses–priestesses. The early days, it was known as the Anointed Quorum. Both women and men together who had entered into the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood were known as the Anointed Quorum. When referenced to the temple, you’re talking about women, they are being given positions in the temple that allows them to have this temple authority and this priest had power. It’s actually referred to. That’s what we’re really talking about here, which is a little bit difficult to talk about outside the temple, but it’s important to know though that this was patriarchal priesthood.

Hank Smith: 00:31:47 So Barb, if a Young Women’s leader or Relief Society teacher said, “Oh, the lessons on the priesthood this month, we don’t really need this,” how would you feel about that?

John Bytheway: 00:32:02 Let’s take a guess.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:32:04 Wow. I would say, “You know what? I appreciate that, but we do know that you as a teacher have been given priesthood power and authority, first of all, right? And I hope that you recognize that you’re teaching young women, they have all made covenants with the Lord through baptism and therefore just as it says in verse 30, “they have received the blessings of the lesser priesthood, including the ministering of angels.’” In this case, they haven’t received the key because that is specifically related to the lesser priesthood, but they have received administering of angels because as President Oaks again says, “Any person who had makes a covenant with God received the blessings of the priesthood and those who have made the baptismal covenant specifically are promised that they would have the Holy Ghost with them, angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. And therefore they have the ministering of angels.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:32:53 So what a difference it would make in the lives of these Young Women if a Young Woman leader would say, “Although the Aaronic priesthood has been ordained or given the key of the ministry of angels, keys open doors.” And so what do you have when you take the sacrament? You have the ministering of angels. The key opens the door to the ministering of angels, but when you make and keep sacred covenants with the Lord, including the baptism covenant, and therefore every time you’re taking a sacrament, you’re renewing the covenant, and therefore God is blessing you with the ministry of angels. So what a difference it would make for us a-16-year-old young woman going to school, knowing that not only does she have this ministry of angels, but as it says later on verse 88 of the section, “And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left and my Spirit shall be on your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:33:48 So women and men both have angels on their left hand and on the right hand, round about us to bear us up. That’s critical for a young woman going on a mission for the first time, leaving her family for the first time, going to a movie theater, going on her first date, babysitting at some unknown house for the first time, just walking down the street to know that because of her covenants, the Lord has promised her angels to be around her. No young woman is ever alone.

John Bytheway: 00:34:13 My daughter is on Week Two of her mission, my second daughter right now. So of course, angels are on your right hand and on your left. You’re a missionary.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:34:24 And that’s true, John, except I will say that even for me, as a young woman and many young women that I’ve talked to, they don’t know what does and doesn’t apply to them.

John Bytheway: 00:34:31 Yeah, I’m going to try to summarize here. If I take part in an ordinance and make covenants through the priesthood, I then have priesthood power, regardless of my gender.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:34:45 Absolutely. Your priesthood power is associated with the covenant that you make, and the righteousness, just like for a man and a woman are the same thing. So if a woman is going to the temple and she is making covenants in the temple, but she comes home and she’s abusive and yelling and fighting just like a husband maybe, she loses priesthood power based upon her righteousness and her purity. But if a woman goes to temple and makes covenants with the Lord, just as a man who goes to temple and makes covenants with the Lord and, and does his best to be Christlike as he becomes more righteous, his priesthood power will increase. It’s the same thing with women. Women’s priesthood power increases as the same way men’s does is through righteousness. The authority is what’s different. The authority, men receive authority through being ordained to a priesthood office in the Church as the ecclesiastical structure.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:35:35 So a deacon does receive priesthood authority to be able to perform priesthood functions. Participating in the passing of the sacrament would be one of those priesthood functions. Baptism, baptizing someone would be a priesthood function. A woman will receive priesthood authority through her calling given to her by someone who holds priesthood keys. She’s not ordained to the priesthood. So therefore, a 12-year-old-girl does not have the authority to be involved in the sacrament like a 12-year-old-boy, nor can an 18-year-old-girl perhaps baptize because she hasn’t been ordained a priest in the Aaronic Priesthood. That is something that he has only been given authority to do, but she can participate in the saving of souls. She can participate in bringing people to Christ. She can participate in all that she needs to do under the authority given to her by the keys of the Bishop or Stake President.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:36:22 And in addition, she has the authority of her covenants that come through her baptism and through, in this case, it could be her temple covenants at this point. So as we continue making and keeping sacred covenants, our power increases as we are obedient, and the authority comes through the covenant and especially in the ecclesiastical, through the person who has priesthood keys.

Hank Smith: 00:36:42 Very good.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:36:43 Does that make sense?

Hank Smith: 00:36:45 Yeah, this is making perfect sense. And so just because my son has the Aaronic Priesthood, when I’m out of town, he’s not presiding in the home. He’s not going to be the one calling on people to pray, right? My wife is presiding in my home together, right? It’s not just when I’m gone.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:37:08 Well, Hank, you have to be a little bit careful with that because you need to be-

Hank Smith: 00:37:11 Yeah, I want to be, I want to know what you think about that.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:37:16 Right. When we’re talking about presiding, we’re very specifically taught in the Family Proclamation that the man presides in the home, but often what is confusing with that term is what does it mean to preside? L. Tom Perry has a great quote where he says, “Remember brethren that in your role, as a leader in the family, your wife is your companion. Since the beginning, God has instructed mankind that marriage should unite husband and wife together in unity. Therefore, there is not a president or a vice president in a family. The couple works together eternally for the good of the family. They’re united together in word, in deed, and in action as they lead, guide, and direct their family unit. They are on equal footing. They plan and organize the affairs of the families jointly and unanimously as they move forward.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:38:02 So then you say, “Okay, well then what is presiding? Because the world teaches us that presiding means you’re in charge.” Well, I don’t find a single place in the scriptures or in any of the teachings of the prophets where it says the man is in charge. Traditionally, you can see some of that in the world. And traditionally you could even see some of that in the church, but the brethren, especially of late have been very clear that presiding doesn’t mean you’re in charge. In fact, recently, Elder Holland said, “Presiding is to love, to serve, and to sacrifice.” So when we’re talking about president Benson, “I say unto you with all soberness, Jesus Christ, as a model, we must follow as we take the spiritual lead in our families, especially this is important with your relationship with your wife.” So we talk about the word presiding, we’re not talking about somebody being in charge ruling over. We’re talking about two people that are equally yoked, that are to love and serve each other and their children.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:38:58 We talk about nurturing them, and we talked about the same thing with the Family Proclamation. Well, so what is nurturing? Well, a lot of people would say, “Well, nurturing means that you are in charge of changing diapers and making sure that they’re close to your children.” Well, President Eyring in 2018 actually says that women are to be the principal gospel teachers in the home. That’s what nurturing is. That’s very different. If a woman’s primary responsibility is to be a gospel instructor, that’s a different definition of nurturing than the world gives. So again, when we’re looking at these definitions it is extremely important that we say not what does the world teaching about the word preside and nurture and priesthood, but what is God teaching about priesthood, presiding, and nurturing?

John Bytheway: 00:39:41 Could we go with that too? It does that fit nicely with the Stripling Warriors’ mothers?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:39:48 Yeah, absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:39:49 Because they changed their… The Stripling Warriors have clothes, Hank?

Hank Smith: 00:39:56 Cloth diapers. I don’t know.

John Bytheway: 00:40:00 No, that’s exactly what it says. They taught them. They taught them the gospel, right? So I liked that. So President Eyring 2018 said, “Nurturing is the primary gospel teacher.” Did I get that right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:40:15 I will actually find you the exact quote because I love this quote. When he said this, he was talking about… President Nelson in the same conference talked about how we, as women, need to have the courage of Mother Eve to make decisions that would impact our family for eternity, which again, this is a very Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaching that we have a prophet who was trying to tell us to become like Mother Eve, to have the courage to make decisions.

John Bytheway: 00:40:39 That’s very uniquely us.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:40:42 Extremely uniquely us. And then he basically says in that same talk that Adam was wise enough to partake, right?

John Bytheway: 00:40:50 Follow her. Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:40:50 –To follow her. And so she’s nurturing in this case. This is her nurturing role to recognize the importance of what she’s doing, to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and act in accordance that will save for eternity God’s children or Heavenly Parents’ children. That’s nurturing. So now we see, and Adam was wise enough to partake, right? And that’s presiding and nurturing at its finest. We’re working together as a couple.

Hank Smith: 00:41:15 She didn’t just nurture her children. She nurtured her husband.

John Bytheway: 00:41:20 Look at Moses, that verse in Moses, Moses 5, like 10 and 11, it’s like, it’s so funny to see what both of them say and how Eve seems to have a bigger picture than Adam does. Is it Moses 5, 10 and 11, “Because of my transgression, my eyes are open.” And he was like, “Because of our transgression, we… And she sees the big family picture. I mean, you read it, and she has a bigger… And Elder Oaks has talked about that too. Her special perspective or something in that episode of the fall. But I’m glad you mentioned that I just finished a class for my students on, I call it Our Glorious Mother Eve, and I was like, go find me that phrase anywhere in traditional Christianity, “Our Glorious Mother Eve.” You’ll find it here.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:42:14 That’s what God called her.

John Bytheway: 00:42:15 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:42:16 I mean, I don’t want to minimize Joseph Smith. That’s aren’t Joseph’s words. That’s what God called her, Glorious Mother Eve. And a prophet today’s saying that we need to have the courage of Mother Eve.

John Bytheway: 00:42:30 Courage to make decisions. I’m going to put that in my lesson.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:42:35 I can find that for you. Again, that’s 2018. But this is a quote from President Eyring that I was referring to. He says, “Part of the Lord’s current sharing of knowledge relates to accelerating His pouring out eternal truth on the heads and into the hearts of His people.” He has made clear that the daughters of Heavenly Father will play a primary role in that miraculous acceleration. One evidence of the miracle is his leading his living prophets to put far greater emphasis on gospel instruction in the home and within the family. And we’re definitely seeing this in COVID time, who knew when the prophet was doing this, this was going to happen. So then he continues, “In the proclamation, He gave sisters charge to be the principal gospel educators in the family.” That’s a pretty strong statement. So when we’re talking about nurturing, we’re talking about principled gospel educators.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:43:21 We often talk about how the fathers needs to take this role in teaching, but the father and the mother are a team. I mean, on a personal note, I miss my parents, but if somebody were to say, “Who was the principal gospel instructor?” I would say both. I remember one time coming into my mother’s room a while after she had passed away, her scriptures were still by her bed and her glasses were on top of it. And I remember walking over there and seeing dust. And it was the first time in my entire life that I ever saw a speck of dust on my mom’s scriptures. She studied the scriptures and she taught us from them. And I think about my dad. Recently, we’ve gone through my parents’ scriptures, dividing them out between brothers and sisters and you open them up.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:44:09 My mom has probably a lot more writing in her scriptures. Typically, my dad’s scriptures are just kind of highlighted here and there, but there’s no question that they were a team and their use of the scriptures in order to help our family. She was nurturing. My father was presiding, but together they were completely united. Neither was in charge, they were a team. They were a husband and wife that were preparing their children for hopeful exaltation. That’s what the Patriarchal Priesthood is about. That’s what Section 84 is about. It’s people working together in order to bring us back to Christ. So Elder Talmage has one of my all time favorite quotes. He has a few regarding women, but I love this again, referring to temple and the covenants that we make and women.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:44:50 He says, “In the glorified state of the blessed hereafter, husband and wife will administer in their respective stations, seeing and understanding alike, and cooperating to the full in the government of their family kingdom.” I love that terminology, family kingdom. And then he says, “Then shall women reign by divine right, a queen in the resplendent realm of her glorified state, even as exalted man shall stand, priest and king unto the Most High God. Mortal eye cannot see nor mind comprehend the beauty, glory, and majesty of a righteous woman made perfect in the celestial kingdom.” This is the whole idea of husband and wife reigned together and the glorified state of both of these people. And the beauty of the eternal family, there’s so much more as President Nelson says that God is trying to show us and teach us in this idea of his glorified state of the blessing hereafter. This is what we’re talking about. This is why we’re here. The glorified individuals.

Hank Smith: 00:45:49 I have a question relating to this. John and I both received this question before from wonderful faithful women. I think this new view could change not only the answer to the question, but even not-

John Bytheway: 00:46:08 -the question.

Hank Smith: 00:46:09 Yeah, it would change the question, which is: How do I get my husband to preside, to gather us in family prayer, to teach us? How do I get him to do that? I’ve received that question before, and it seems like what you’re teaching here is changing your question almost.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:46:27 Yeah. Yeah. It’s not, you’re trying to get your husband, it’s what can you do as a couple to draw closer to Christ so that together you can help your family? I’ve known some women in the past that they’re almost nervous to become too righteous because they think in so doing, they’re going to lose their husband or they’re going to leave him behind. Nothing could be further from the truth. The more righteous a woman is, and the more she tries to draw closer to the Lord, the Lord will guide her and give her through the Spirit, through the power of the priesthood that she has, with the covenants that she has made, the ability to know what to do. I mean, that’s a promise again from President Nelson recently was we will know what we should do through the priesthood.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:47:13 So when you’re talking to this woman and saying, “How do I get my husband to do this?” You’re not trying to get your husband to do things you’re together as a couple, trying to be united. And so maybe a question could be, “How can I better be united with my husband so that the two of us can draw our children unto Christ?” That’s a different kind of question. It may be that it’s not a matter of just sitting back. There are so many answers to that question because every couple is different. My husband is very different from my father. My mom would probably respond differently to my husband, then I would to my husband, but my husband would respond differently to me. It’s a couple. And that’s the reason why that’s such a private relationship.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:47:57 It’s two people who have been, in this case, sealed in the temple with all of the promises associated with what we were talking about in Section 128, that when that couple is sealed in the temple, they have started an entirely new kingdom. And so it’s that couple working together, those individuals coming together as a couple to figure out how they can make that happen. You’re not just trying to get your husband to preside. You’re trying to create an eternal family. You’re trying to create an eternal couple. And so that takes a lot of humility. It takes a lot of patience. It takes a lot of faith. It takes a lot of honesty. It takes a lot of becoming like Christ for both the wife and the husband. Christ had to wait a long time for us, too

Hank Smith: 00:48:41 I can’t tell you how many times, and it has gone both directions, that my wife will say, “Oh, let’s gather everybody to pray.” Or I say it. She’s like, “Hey, let’s go get our pajamas on.” I’m like, “Oh, should we get everybody together to pray?” And it’s not like she’s reminding me of my job or I’m reminding her of her job. It’s we’re trying to…

John Bytheway: 00:49:03 It’s what we do. It’s what we do at the end of the day. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:49:07 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:49:08 I really like it because I’ve always understood preside, but when you use that phrase, it’s not a president and a vice president. That is really helpful because I don’t see it that way in our family at all. And I get the word preside, but if you equate it with president, then it does sound like there’s a vice president and that’s not what we’re after, we’re equal partners. And sometimes it will be, oh, we’ve got to have family prayer for me, or sometimes it will be, we got to have family prayer from my wife and that’s how it’s supposed to work. We’re both doing this. It’s like the “vice presider.” Had never thought of that before.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:49:47 I’ve thought about this a lot, and some people have asked, “No, what does it look like?” And this sounds like almost a cop out, but I will just say it like this, “When you see it, you know it. When you feel it, you know it. You know what it’s like to have a righteous man presiding in your home and your family.” And if you don’t know, then find it, for a man or a woman. Both of both genders can be looking for examples, but we know what it’s like. I can imagine what it’s like for President Nelson to be presiding “in his family.” He’s married to a very strong woman who has very strong opinions too, but I promise you that those guys, those two, he is presiding and she is nurturing in love and righteousness.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:50:29 When I think about this, I think about a time when I was on a Church History trip with my family and we were going across Martin’s Cove and we got up to the Rocky Ridge area and coming back down and we went to the gravesite where you have the big wheel and the bodies buried there. And I remember looking at the stone and just seeing the numbers of genders that were buried. For whatever reason, that caught my attention as a young teenager. And I remember asking my mom, “Mom, why are there more men than women that are here? The men are stronger. Men have bigger muscles and they could have gotten across as playing so well.” And my mom said, and to this day, it rings so true, because righteous men will always sacrifice for others. There were more men passing away because the men were giving their food. The men were pulling these handcarts. And so were the women.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:51:31 But the men who presided gave their lives with their families, they weren’t trying to be in control. They were trying to save, they were trying to exalt. And that’s what a presiding man does. No woman would be afraid of the term preside or find it demeaning if she really understood what a true presider is like. In my life, I’ve been blessed by that, and I’m almost hesitant to say that because, well, frankly, I wasn’t married till I was 40 and I didn’t have a husband in my family, but I sure watched a lot of righteous men, home teachers, bishops, my own father, people that I taught with. Presiding is a very holy, sacred responsibility for men. And it’s not what the world would have as belief. And frankly, Satan would love to make us hate that word. It’s very righteous. Our Father in Heaven presides, but I don’t think our Mother in Heaven is just doing whatever he says. They are a couple united for the purpose of exalting their children. It’s righteous. It’s powerful.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:52:39 So I think when we talk about these words and we talk about the section of the Doctrine and Covenants again, I think the Lord is really trying to help us to see these people are brought into the presence of God. When you’re bringing a husband and a wife into the presence of God to see his face, they aren’t just standing in pride, they’re kneeling in righteousness, and that’s why they weren’t ready yet. They weren’t ready to kneel and see God’s face yet. And that’s part of this couple coming together is as we are trying to become gods and goddesses, we have to lose all of those sharp points in our lives and become like Christ, which the priesthood gives us that opportunity to do.

Hank Smith: 00:53:14 Now, our priesthood and our covenants, right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:53:16 Yeah. So I’ve always loved this quote, this tying in the patriarchal priesthood with the temple. Joseph Smith says, “Go through and finish the temple and God will fill it with power and you will then receive more knowledge concerning this priesthood. There’s only one place where the order of the priesthood, which is patriarchal authority, is made known, and that is in the temple. You enter into an order of the priesthood in the temple.” I just love here where Joseph Smith is very explicit and he’s simply saying, we’re talking about the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood and the Patriarchal Order of the Priesthood is only found in the temple, and that’s why we need temples built. And again, that’s why we need temples built throughout the world today is because it’s all about creating eternal families, and eternal families are made in temples.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:54:01 Well, we talk about the Aaronic Priesthood and how important it is. I hope in all of this, we aren’t dismissing the importance of Aaronic Priesthood because there would be no repentance, there would be no baptism, there would be no remission of sins if we did not have the Aaronic Priesthood. So all of this becomes important as well. But I will continually say that, remember in all of these things, although the Young Men have the key or have been blessed with the key, also the Bishop has the key in this case, all women and all men are receiving these blessings. All of them are able to repent. All of them are able to be baptized. So again, President Nelson says that, “Oh, how he wishes that the women would understand how relevant the Restoration of the priesthood is in their lives.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:54:40 Well, it is just as relevant to the Young Women as it is to the Young Men. Sometimes traditionally, we teach that, it’s kind of skewed. I mean, sometimes we’ll have the priesthood camp and we’ll have a fathers and sons outing and call it the Priesthood Overnight or something. It’s no different, frankly, than having a woman go with her daughter. We could call that the Priesthood Overnight or two, depending on the definition of priesthood that you’re using. Okay. So in the introduction to the 2020 Handbook, there’s actually been a change in this introduction, which is extremely significant. There’s not a change in the doctrine, the priesthood itself is the doctrine, but this is the change in our understanding of this doctrine. It simply says this, “The priesthood is the authority and power of God. That’s the same. It has always existed and will continue to exist without end.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:55:24 “Now note this, through the priesthood, Heavenly Father accomplishes his work to bring to pass the immortality eternal life of man. God grants authority and power to his sons and daughters on earth to help carry out this work.” Until 2020, I have never seen the word, daughters, in there, but there has been a very strong emphasis from our prophet today to help the Young Women and the women of the Church understand that they have priesthood power and authority. So it is therefore related and kind of gone through that in their most recent habit of instruction, no longer does it say, man, as if man could be both genders, it is actually specifically stating sons and daughters so that the women understand that they also have this piece of power and authority. That’s a critical point for women and men of the Church to understand.

John Bytheway: 00:56:10 Exactly. And I think if we don’t, there’s a danger here, Barb. If we don’t understand this, we’re going to pass down some false traditions. One of those could be, and what would you say to this? That somehow a young man has it in his head that because he is a holder of the priesthood and he’s 14 or 15 and the young women in his word who are also his same age, 14 or 15, that somehow he has more decision-making authority than these young women. That seems to me a pretty damaging result of not understanding.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:56:48 Again, that’s something that’s very traditional. I mean, we teach so much the importance of keys and priesthood responsibility and authority, and that is so traditionally tied to men. And it’s true. Men preside in the Church, there is a prophet and he is a man. And that is the way God has organized it. President Hinckley was one asked, “Why is it that men are ordained to priesthood offices and not women?” And his answer was, “I don’t know.” We don’t know. And I love that answer. There are so many bad answers to that question. And I hear it so many times. I appreciate Elder Oaks in the statement where he says, “One of the biggest problems we have in the Church is giving answers to questions that God has never revealed.” Amen. So let’s not give the reasons. So yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:57:32 Traditionally you see, not just traditionally, but in the Church, you do see in the hierarchical structure of the Church that you do have men who are presiding in specific responsibilities. So First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve, Presidency of the Seventy, Stake President, Bishop. Those men have keys and they do so hopefully in great righteousness, will, and authority and have great influence. But if you look at these righteous wise men, President Ballard has spoken so much regarding this, a very wise priesthood of the holy man who holds keys will turn to the Relief Society President and ask for her opinion on things and take her opinion very carefully and very seriously. So we look at a young man, well, young men traditionally for some reason have thought, and you brought that before that if a young man is the one in the home and he has been ordained to a priesthood office and he presides, well, of course he doesn’t. That we know. President Oaks recently has clarified that very carefully.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:58:27 But in the Church, sometimes we think that if a man is ordained to a preset office, therefore he is going to preside over the women at church. That’s not the case. Let’s say a 17-year-old-young man in a 17-year-old-young woman were called for whatever reason to be in charge of the Trek, the Stake Trek, and no one else was in that room, who presides in that meeting? Well, both or either.

John Bytheway: 00:58:53 Both or either. Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:58:54 Because the presiding comes from one who has priesthood keys. The Bishop could have said, “Jenny, you’re going to be in this meeting with John and you’re presiding.” And that would have been fine because the presiding isn’t a priesthood office. It doesn’t relate to the priesthood, unless the priesthood holder, the key holder is actually making that delegation. If a husband and wife were called to be teachers of a Sunday School class, and that they were called to work in the Primary, well, who presides in that class? Well, both because this is a calling. They’re no longer at home, right? So now they’re at church, they’re both called by one who has priesthood keys, the Bishop. And so they are both given equal authority. It’s extremely important. In fact, I’ve asked many, many students over the years similar questions to this, and most of the time until recently, they’ve been very wrong. So it’s a tradition that we need to work on for sure.

Hank Smith: 00:59:46 You feel like we’re turning a corner though. We’re starting to-

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:59:50 -yeah. And just for the purposes of our discussion, I hope we recognized this isn’t a problem just in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I didn’t want to call it a problem. This isn’t just an issue. I mean, I serve as a Chaplain. This is a tendency throughout most religions. This is a tendency throughout the world. I mean, we have been working on women’s rights and women’s issues for years and years and years and years. And like I’ve said before, Joseph Smith was very forward-thinking. We have a prophet today who is very forward-thinking. President Nelson has opened the doors and turned the keys to women in ways that we have not seen in years. But this is not a problem of just our church. This isn’t a struggle that just women of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have, this is something that is very cultural. And I think our prophet is helping us to get out of the culture and into the gospel.

Hank Smith: 01:00:38 And how would you explain to a young woman why it didn’t start out this way, right? Why didn’t when the Church has organized, did the Lord… It’s pretty much here. Here it is, 1832, but I get that sometimes from students is, if it’s the Lord’s Church, why does it have to learn, right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:01:02 The Lord could tell me that I should use calculus today. But unless I started with basic one plus one mathematics, I would never be able to do calculus. So even though he could reveal calculus to me, I still need to practice basic mathematics skills to get there.

Hank Smith: 01:01:21 Line upon line.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:01:22 Line upon line. Precept upon precept. We talk about this so often and people say, “Well, why didn’t the Lord just tell the women?” Well, what would have happened in that day, and what would have happened in the 1860s, and what would have happened in the 1920s? I mean, you think about the world and progression. God is very wise and teaches line upon line. These doctrines and these principles that are set here are in the scriptures. This is straight 1830s.

John Bytheway: 01:01:46 It is there.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:01:46 It is so there, and it is very clear. I mean, he is establishing the Relief Society with the intent that women are going to receive their endowments and receive power and authority. It was taught in Nauvoo in the 1840s, very clearly to these women, they understood it. They pass it along. You see these all through these women of the Church. But it’s as if we, as a culture, are trying to catch up to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s been there all along. We’re just finally to the point where we’re really figuring it out. And we have a prophet who is making it a key emphasis today.

Hank Smith: 01:02:18 Right.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:02:18 President Nelson in the last three years has asked the women of the Church to study priesthood power and authority two times consecutively in General Conference. He doesn’t typically repeat himself, but he actually says, “I repeat my plea for the women of the Church to study priesthood power.” That’s uncommon. And then he gives them specific instructions on how to do that. That was 2019 and 2020 President Nelson has done that. And sometimes women struggle with that because they think, well, if women are setting priesthood, power and authority, maybe they’re trying to be ordained to a priesthood office. But there are a number of reasons why women don’t study that, and many of it is just because there’s a culture of, if women try to study it, then they are trying to change the prophet. But the prophet is the one asking.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:03:03 So it’s important for the men to help the women also to understand, because if there is not a supportive man behind us, a woman, who’s trying to follow the prophet, it’s very difficult. If a man says to a woman, “Why are you studying the priesthood? Are you trying to be ordained to a priesthood office?” Well, he just slammed that woman down pretty hard, even though he may not have meant and intended that. The smallest nuance of negativity in this topic is extremely damaging to women because it has been a hot topic and many people have struggled with it over the years. So in this topic as we’re studying in Section 84, it’s extremely important that questions are allowed and asked for, that testimonies are born, that we understand that we have literally a prophet of the Church today who is pleading, using the word “pleading” coming from him for the women of the Church to understand their role in the priesthood.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:03:53 So it’s important that the men understand that, that that is the direction that the women have been given by the prophet.

John Bytheway: 01:04:02 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.