Hank Smith: 00:02 Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast. Barb, we’ve got teaching. We’ve got repentance. What’s next?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:10 Besides the fact that he’s talking about the poor and the needy are always going to be among us, and he’s talking about the storehouse verse 34. Verse 35 he’s talking about the purpose of purchasing the lands and why they’re doing it. But I want to make the point that again law of consecration. I love the temple. So, verse 36, that my covenant people… So, why are they being commanded to live the law of consecration? Why are they going to be eventually commanded to move to New Jerusalem? He gives the answer in verse 36 that my covenant people may be gathered in one in that day when I shall come to my temple, and this I do for the salvation of my people.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 00:41 I love that President Nelson, this is not a direct quote, but he said, “It’s much harder to build a covenant, a temple people, than it is to build a temple,” that kind of idea and the Lord is trying to build a temple people. And the law of consecration is one of the best ways, hands down, to help people sacrifice their wants, their selfish ideas and ideologies and everything else for the betterment of people and become the kind of people that Christ is who sacrificed all things.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:08 The law of consecration is critical that we understand that it’s agency at its finest. No one’s being forced to live the law of consecration. People have the opportunity to choose if they do or don’t want to live it, and what they are going to give in so living. And so, the law of consecration is really a people. The Lord is cleansing the people as it says in verse 41, cleanliness before me. And then, verse 40, thou shalt not be proud in thy heart.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 01:30 He’s helping the people to become humble. He’s helping them to care about each other. He’s helping them to be prepared to enter the temple, make those covenants that are going to be required, and that are going to be required of all of us who desire to become like God. That’s the law of consecration. It’s critical to the history of the church. More importantly, it’s critical to the exaltation of all of us.

Hank Smith: 01:50 I wonder to you and I, we think, “Oh, temples, law of consecration, of course. I wonder how new this is, temple, right? We’re going to have the temple?

John Bytheway: 02:01 What do you do in a temple?

Hank Smith: 02:03 Yeah. What do you do?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 02:05 They didn’t know. Clearly, they didn’t know what was going on with the temple. The Lord knew. But they think were getting excited because the Lord gives them little hints here and there. I’ll [inaudible 00:02:12] with power. He gives them little bits and pieces that there was no way they had any idea when you look through this what the Lord was going to give them. But, boy, does he help prepare them to get there.

John Bytheway: 02:23 This is such an interesting point to me because I’m trying to think of the existing churches of the day. Did anyone use that name temple? Was the only temple that we knew about the temple in Jerusalem? And now, all of a sudden the Lord keeps using this idea of building a temple. And what are we going to do there? Would you say that’s pretty unique to our faith, this idea of temples?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 02:51 Yeah. Maybe. I don’t know exactly how unique. I know we have the Jewish faith that has the temples that they’re believing in. Other Christian churches will recognize… Any Judeo-Christian church is going to recognize temple. This emphasis on the temple and the purpose of the temple is different. The restoration of the priesthood blessings that are going to be associated with the temple are clearly different.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 03:11 So, I guess the context of the temple is probably different. Maybe, the emphasis on the temple as we continue on. But other religions would have had an understanding at least of temples.

John Bytheway: 03:20 But they didn’t know what was coming, didn’t they?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 03:23 No, no. Clearly, they didn’t understand what was coming. We’re still extremely distinct in the use of temple on that, no question.

Hank Smith: 03:28 Barb, the law of consecration is going to be something we talk about continually in the next 40 seconds.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 03:35 Yeah. This is merely an introduction. Right.

Hank Smith: 03:37 Yeah. It’s just an introduction. But how do you help your students understand the difference between, hey, what’s yours is mine now versus what the law of consecration is really about. Do you have students that ask you those type of questions like before Joseph Smith shows up in Kirtland, they’re trying to live this law. And the idea is I can just walk up to you, and, hey, I like that watch, right? [crosstalk 00:03:59].

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 03:58 But there’s stories of people doing that, I mean, legitimate church history stories. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 04:02 And that’s not what the Lord has in mind.

John Bytheway: 04:04 And then, the guy took it and sold it, right?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 04:06 Exactly. [crosstalk 00:04:07]

Hank Smith: 04:07 To a pawnshop.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 04:10 It’s so funny. The question I get more from my students is what’s the difference between the law of consecration and communism or socialism. That’s typically the question I get regarding the law of consecration, and why were people forced into it which is why we talked about agency. Another question I often get is why don’t we live it anymore. That’s one’s a tricky question because we may not live it according as it is here publicly in this way where everybody was giving this, and we had a storehouse in that exact manner.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 04:37 But as President Hinckley says, “The law of sacrifice and law of consecration were not done away with and are still in effect.” I used to ask my dad, “Why you didn’t live the law of consecration?” And I’ll never forget his answer. It was just simply, “I don’t know. Why aren’t you?” I was like, “Okay.”

Hank Smith: 04:55 Okay. Thanks, dad.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 04:56 Everybody else is. Apparently, I didn’t pick that ball up.

Hank Smith: 04:59 Because I want to keep my watch. That’s why.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 05:01 Exactly. So, yeah. Hank, I mean people could be asking like… It’s all a matter of as they said at the time they lived in association called the family in Ohio in those early years. Although people as a group joined. Not every individual was given their agency if a family joined. But in law of consecration still individuals are given that responsibility. But it’s also a matter of sacrifice and willingness. In the law of consecration, people weren’t told to take things.

Hank Smith: 05:27 It was all giving.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 05:28 It was all sacrificing and giving, and there’s a lot more law of consecration that’ll come up in the sections in the future. But we’re talking about needs, wants, and what wanting really means and lacking of things. There’s a lot more that we could talk about.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 05:38 I think the biggest thing for law of consecration is agency, stewardship, sacrificing for the greater purpose of others in the Lord coming unto Christ as it is today. No difference.

Hank Smith: 05:49 It looks different than it did then. But the law of consecration is still very much in effect.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 05:55 The elders of the church were talking about living together in love, and we’ve kind of already talked about relationships between people and speaking highly of each other. We have the law of healing and death, and I love these. This is really 43 to 52. I love where Brigham Young says, “There are too many people who are saying don’t call a doctor. Just heal me.” And Brigham Young basically kind of summarizing says, “Are you kidding me?” If we have a doctor, call a doctor.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 06:20 If we’re in the middle of a mountain somewhere, we have nobody to help us, yes, then, we will perform a priesthood blessing, and the Lord will bless us according to our faith and according to his will. But if there’s a doctor in town, go to the doctor. And it’s the same thing I think as Elder Holland is talking about mental illness.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 06:34 I take this personally because I have many of my family members who struggled desperately with mental illnesses. And one of the things Elder Holland says is, “Find a good counselor. Talk to your priesthood leader or authority and also take medication.” So, I think is interesting 43 to 52 the Lord is saying, “Use the help that you can help. Be healed where you can be healed.” But also have the faith to be healed or the faith not to be healed according to the Lord’s desire. To me, those are some significant teachings just in those verses by themselves.

Hank Smith: 07:03 What is that in verse 43? But believe shall be nourished with all tenderness, with herbs, mild food. To me, use what’s available to you to get healed. And today, it would probably be, yeah, we would add to that doctors, medications, study?

John Bytheway: 07:19 What is the verse shall we not make use of the things which the Lord hath provided? I love that because that says, “Look, there are even medications there. Look at what the Lord has provided.” Don’t just, “No, we’ll just go get a healing blessing.” And most healing blessings that I’ve been a witness to I have heard the counsel coming listen to the doctor. See what he says as well and exercise your faith, type of a thing.

Hank Smith: 07:46 That’s Alma 60 verse 21, John.

John Bytheway: 07:48 We read. [crosstalk 00:07:50] It’s Pahoran and Moroni [crosstalk 00:07:53] back and forth, right?

Hank Smith: 07:53 He says, “Do you suppose that the Lord will still deliver us while we sit upon our thrones, and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us? Very good. It’s almost like you do this for a living, John. You’re pretty good.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 08:08 I’d love this in connection with that almost as similar wording as Moroni. If we are sick and ask the Lord to heal us and do all for us that is necessary to be done according to my understanding of the gospel of salvation, I might as well ask the Lord to cause my wheat and corn to grow without my plowing the ground and casting in the seed. It appears inconsistent to me… It appears consistent to me to apply every remedy that comes within the range of my knowledge and to ask my father in heaven in the name of Jesus Christ to sanctify that application to the healing of my body.

Hank Smith: 08:36 Nice.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 08:36 I just love that. Brigham Young, he’s such a practical person.

John Bytheway: 08:41 I heard Sharlene Wells Hawkes tell a story about one of her ancestors that their wagon was stuck or something, and they didn’t know what to do. And somebody said, “Well let’s pray,” and her ancestor said, “I prayed this morning. Let’s get out and push.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 08:55 Yeah. That’s great. As opposed to my ancestor who was walking across the plains, and she says she wasn’t going any farther. So, her husband took her and dumped her right in the middle of the river and said, “Well, you have a choice. One way or the other, you’re going to get wet. So, you better start walking.”

Hank Smith: 09:08 Oh my goodness.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 09:10 These stories. I don’t think mine were quite as faithful as Sharlene Wells’ family. Hey, can I share with you one of my other favorite scriptures in this part?

Hank Smith: 09:17 Please.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 09:17 Verse 45. This is personal to me and many who have lost loved ones. I love it. Thou shalt live together in love in as much as thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die and more especially for those that have not hoped of a glorious resurrection. This idea, I mean, I lost my father just a couple of months ago. I know, Hank, you’ve lost your father recently. John, I’m not sure about your situation.

John Bytheway: 09:42 My mother in December.

Hank Smith: 09:44 Yeah, just a couple of months ago.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 09:45 All of us within the last three months have lost… Four months, I guess mine was in November. But I’ve lost people that we love dearly, and I love that it’s the law to weep for the loss of them that die. President Nelson, this is one of my favorite quotes on death. He says, “Irrespective of age, we mourn for those loved and lost. Mourning is one of the deepest expressions of pure love. It’s a natural response and complete accord with divine commandment. Thou shalt live together in love in so much that thou shalt weep for the loss of them that die.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 10:15 Elder Holland has this statement where he says, “Tears are the price we pay for love.” I mourn deeply at the loss of my father and at the loss of my mother, and my husband at the loss of his mother and father, and we are eternal beings, and there’s a reason I think that we mourn. We miss people. We love each other, and I’m grateful. I’m grateful to be blessed with the kind of love that allows me to weep, and I’m grateful for the love others have that allows them to weep.

John Bytheway: 10:41 And the Lord’s saying, “Don’t avoid that. Don’t try to isolate yourself and avoid that.” Love people and live together in love. And yeah, you will weep. But internal perspective helps that, doesn’t it? And I was thinking Mosiah 18. Here’s Alma, the elder, the waters of Mormons saying, “Are you willing to come into the fold of God be called his people? Are you willing to mourn with those that mourn?” It’s part of being a member of the church even is that, together, we mourn with one another.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 11:10 You’re talking before, John, about joy and about the happiness. You can be a joyful person and still mourn deeply. And Christ was the perfect example of that. I think that’s something as members of the church, sometimes, we are really good at being happy, and for good reason. We have a great reason to have joy, no question. And as President Nelson says, it’s who we are and what we believe in, and it’s the direction that we’re going in that causes us to have this joy.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 11:34 It’s our foundation in Jesus Christ that causes the joy. But it’s also our foundation in Jesus Christ that causes us to mourn. It’s about love.

John Bytheway: 11:42 When Lazarus was dead and when Jesus swept, and he knew exactly what was going to happen. But he wept, and he mourned with them, and we don’t mourn… What did Joseph Smith say? But we don’t mourn as those without hope. We shall have them again.

Hank Smith: 11:58 We should also add that you can have faith and still mourn. And sometimes, we think our testimony is I shouldn’t be mourning. I know. I have a great testimony of the Lord. But mourning and faith go hand in hand. You can be very faithful and have deep grief for a long time.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 12:16 We’re probably going too far on this. One more, Joseph F. Smith, I don’t have a direct quote. But I think about his life and the pandemic of his early 1900 years and the millions who died then and losing his own son who was an apostle and many of his own children. I read in his own personal writings one day in one of his journals, he wrote something to the effect of as he lost one of his daughters, he said, “I don’t mourn because I am lacking in faith, or I don’t mourn because I feel that I will never see her again.” He says, “I have no question I will see her again. I mourn because I miss her.” I mourn because I love her. That’s very healthy.

Hank Smith: 12:53 Yeah. That is very [crosstalk 00:12:54].

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 12:54 Great conversation.

Hank Smith: 12:58 What’s next? This is a long section. It’s prolific. Just the content here is rich with theology and law.

John Bytheway: 13:12 I just look at 61 because I was thinking about this. Look, how the Lord was just… Well, I want a revelation about this. Okay. Well, this guy wants revelation. Okay. Well, this guy wants revelation. Okay. And he’s just not saying, “Don’t bother me.” He’s saying if you shall ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge that thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things that which bringeth joy which we’re just talking about, that which bringeth life eternal. I put an exclamation point by that verse. I thought that’s another ask-and-you-shall-receive-type verse.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 13:45 Amen. That’s a President Nelson at its finest lately calling us to seek revelation.

John Bytheway: 13:50 To hear him.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 13:51 Yeah. These are also good parenting scriptures for me at least as I have my children and also as a daughter by, I think, of one specific instance where my mom asked me a question and my mother passed away from brain cancer. And so, at the end of her life, she was asking a lot of questions that weren’t making a lot of sense.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 14:08 And I remember again a lot of negativity in my life, negativity meaning I made some very stupid comments in my life clearly. But I remember saying to my mom, “Mom, you’ve asked that question so many times.” And it was one of those stupid moments. I just look back at what I would give for my mom to ask a question again, that I could actually give an answer to.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 14:29 But I remember in the moment I said that to my mom, the very simple rebuke, and you haven’t from the Lord. Like, “Really? Really?” You’re actually telling your mother right now not to ask a question she knows the answer to. I mean how many times. And I love what John said, I mean revelation upon revelation, and that I’ll [inaudible 00:14:53] God wants to speak, and he is speaking. And as a parent, I also need to be careful that I’m not shutting people down or as a teacher that I’m allowing great questions, and I’m creating the atmosphere of where questions can be asked and especially that I’m creating the atmosphere where questions can be asked of the Lord.

John Bytheway: 15:09 A great contribution that Sister Sherry do made was that questions are good, and she started that talk up at Rick’s about have you engaged in the wrestle? And then, oh heck, bring all your questions. Absolutely. Bring all your questions and wrestle with them. Now, we don’t say in the gospel, “Don’t have questions.” We say, “Ask.” And here’s the Lord saying, “If you ask, you’ll receive.” That’s pretty straightforward. I wish the timing were on my terms sometimes.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 15:38 Definitely. And I think that’s important especially in our day and age. We have a lot of young adults who sometimes, I think, that they think or not just them, many people, many of us may think that if we ask too many questions at some point, we might find that the church isn’t true. Nothing could be more opposite than that. The problem is when we don’t ask enough questions, when we stop too early from finding the answers in my entire life, I have never yet, and I have asked many, many questions.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 16:07 In fact, I have a book where I keep my questions, and I just keep adding and adding legitimately do. And most of my research that I do comes because of my questions. I want to find answers, and I have yet to find something that if I studied it all the way through that has in any way, shape or form caused me to have any desire to leave the church, there are times when I’ve asked a question, and I haven’t gone far enough.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 16:32 And I’ve thought, “What in the world am I believing?” But if I keep going, the Lord satisfies the question with a very solid answer even if it’s the spirit confirming to me that I don’t understand, but it’s still true. The Lord will confirm through revelation. We can’t be afraid to ask questions as members of the church.

John Bytheway: 16:51 Absolutely.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 16:51 That’s the principle of the gospel.

John Bytheway: 16:53 Yeah. Keep asking.

Hank Smith: 16:55 I think implied in the verse is it’s going to take time because he doesn’t just say, “You’ll receive a revelation.” He’s saying, “You’ll receive revelation upon revelation.” He probably could keep going upon revelation. So, be patient in this process as I lay this out for you.

John Bytheway: 17:12 I like to tell my students that sometimes you think your question will be met with an answer. But what if the Lord instead says, “I’m going to give you an experience, and it’ll take six months. And then, you’ll find your answer.” And you trust him to answer your question through an experience that might take months or years. And for me, that’s how some of my answers have come through an experience that took a while.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 17:35 Elder Bednar actually has a statement where he says, “He goes to the temple looking for better questions to ask.” And then, he goes, “Home to study and try to live according so that he can find answers.” But I find it fascinating that, for him, the temple is a place to find good questions. Kind of a difference. And, sometimes, we perceive the temple as.

Hank Smith: 17:52 Barb, I’m seeing the end of the tunnel here. What are you teaching here as we get towards the very end of this one, 92 verses?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 18:01 Wow. Are we already there? So, we I just see that verse 74, again, this is the second revelation. So, it’s important to recognize that this was the first up to verse 72. And then, we see this the second revelation. So, we have a little repeat about adultery and covenant keeping, and things of that nature. And then, the Lord specifically is dealing with the law of dealing with transgressors, those who have sinned and how to go about helping those people come back into the fold.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 18:24 But also, he’s trying to teach his bishop how to deal with those who are leaving the church and struggling with law of consecration or not necessarily holding up to the covenants that they have been making with the Lord. And so, we see these verses ending in 92, 93. But if any of you shall offend in secret, he or she shall be rebuked in secret that he or she may have opportunity to confess in secret to him or her whom he or she has offended and to God that the church may not speak reproachfully to him or her.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 18:49 The purpose is let’s help people repent. Let’s help people get back on their feet. The purpose of all of this is the salvation of souls. Let’s not again be communal about it. Let’s not talk to the world about it. Let’s help individuals come into Christ.

John Bytheway: 19:05 Do you know what I love about this? I think about John chapter 8, the woman taken in adultery and how Jesus dismissed the crowd before he spoke to her. He spoke to her even as far as we can tell. It wasn’t in dispute that something bad had happened. But his respect for her even in that state was such that he dismissed the crowd before he said, “Where are those nine accusers? Hath no man condemn thee?”

John Bytheway: 19:32 And I love the respect he had for her that… He didn’t say, “Okay. Is this true in front of everybody?” He dismissed them all first, and I’ve always loved that, that between him and her and the alone, verse 88 and then, verse 92.

Hank Smith: 19:48 Yeah. Barb, I really liked when you said. This is the Lord to helping his bishop. I just felt my heart just left for Edward Partridge and anybody who has to who… I shouldn’t say has to, who has the opportunity to work one-on-one with someone who has made serious mistakes, and I think it’s a beautiful thing that the Lord put this in here because he could just say, “I want you all living the commandments. Take care of it.”

Hank Smith: 20:16 But implied in this is you’re going to make some mistakes along the way, and I’m going to create a way to help those who are limping along who have been wounded by sin.

John Bytheway: 20:29 And if anybody is willing to come and see the bishop, they are so far down the road because they’re willing to come and the Lord’s mercy… I love what Elder Neil L. Andersen talked about giving a guy a blessing who was still haunted by actions. And so, yeah, I like looking at that as, hey, Bishop Partridge, this will happen.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 20:52 I heard a friend recently talk about the iron rod and how so often in pictures we depict an iron broad as if it’s waste time or holding on and just kind of touching along. And depending on the picture, we have some darkness here, a river there. And he’s like, “For me, the iron rod is like high above the sky.” And I am holding on for dear life trying to do as Elder Bednar says continually holding. But he’s like, “It is taking every piece of muscle I possibly have.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 21:21 But then, I think when you get to that tree of life, and I think that this is where the bishop often is representing the savior or a stake president or someone else that we have people in our lives. In this case, we’re talking about the bishop or those who are called to do so. If we’re doing so correctly, an individual legitimately is filled with God’s love. But for all of us, I mean all of us are sinners and need the savior. And all of us are sinners and need leaders, family members to help us-

Hank Smith: 21:47 Implied in this whole thing, it just seems a lot of mercy and a lot of… That the Lord knows that we’re going to make mistakes, and that there’s going to be a way for this to be dealt with and bringing someone back. I like how you pointed that out in verse 92 that the church may not speak reproachfully of him or her. I think that is beautiful. When I was serving on the high council in my stake, I was part of these membership councils, and I remember my very first one going, “Oh, this is scary. Oh, I’m nervous. What’s going to happen?” And everyone that I was a part of was so full of love for the individual and for anyone who had been offended by that or hurt by that individual.

Hank Smith: 22:33 And they were some of the most sacred experiences of my life. And I wasn’t a major player here. I’m just on the high council. But I look back on those, and think about those, and think of what I had thought in my head. It was like versus what it was actually like. And the difference is pretty stark.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 22:56 However, in the early days of the church, there were some pretty funny councils that were going on. I can’t remember the name that I apologize. I don’t have it on top of my head right now. But the first accusation was speaking too loudly in public. And then, you learn more about this later in the doctrine and covenants, and we’ll have more specific as to the way in which people are going through these councils and responsibilities of each individual. But there was a lot to learn for the early states too regarding these councils.

Hank Smith: 23:26 You speak of the problems with the saints. That kind of leads us to section 43, doesn’t it?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 23:30 It sure does. [crosstalk 00:23:33].

Hank Smith: 23:33 They’ve having some problems.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 23:35 I call it hubble trouble.

John Bytheway: 23:37 Oh, that’s good.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 23:38 You like that?

John Bytheway: 23:39 Yes.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 23:41 It makes me happy to say it. I don’t know why.

John Bytheway: 23:43 If you don’t know about this, you’ve been in the hubble trouble bubble.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 23:49 That was good. That was good, John. Wow.

John Bytheway: 23:52 So, as we approach section 43, there seems to have been a bit of controversy or a question that kind of reminds us a little bit of section 28. So, what was happening here that brought this one about?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 24:03 I love in this section that we hear from this woman. But what I love about section 28 is [inaudible 00:24:09] repentance comes back at least initially. In this section, we have Mrs. Hubble Trouble who doesn’t. And so, these early days, again, we talked earlier about Ohio and some of these struggles. We are at the beginning of the church.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 24:24 The church has only been organized for I mean [inaudible 00:24:27] February of 1831. So, I mean yeah. We’re talking not even a full year yet. Joseph has just received the revelation in section 28 regarding only one person being in charge and speaking for the church. And so, we’re just barely understanding government structure of the church.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 24:40 We did now receive our law which talks about revelation. But it doesn’t talk about who receives revelation necessarily. So, that’s section 43. There’s a reason. People didn’t always believe that there was just one prophet speaking on the earth. In fact, that is what separates us from the other churches. And so, Mrs. Hubble believes that she is receiving this revelation.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 24:57 People are believing her, and in the words of John Whitmer, I think in his history that he kept for the church, he said, “She professed to be a prophetess of the Lord and professed to have many revelations and knew the book of Mormon was true, and that she should become a teacher in the Church of Christ,” which is the tricky part because she’s teaching the book of Mormon, and she’s trying to bring people to Christ so it seems. But then-

John Bytheway: 25:17 She’s a baptized member?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 25:19 I don’t know. The answer is I don’t know to that question. So, he says “She appeared to be very sanctimonious and deceived some who are not able to detect her in her hypocrisy. Others, however, had the spirit of discernment, and her follies and abominations were manifest.” And then, this one from Ezra Booth, I think, is also very telling. I love these little historical eclipses and these about her just because I want to understand what’s going on with her.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 25:39 There aren’t enough women in the church in the scriptures. And so, it’s kind of buggy that again we have this one. But it’s great. It’s true. Anyways. So, he says, “A female professing to be a prophetess made her appearance in Kirtland and so ingratiated herself into the esteem and favor of some of the elders that they received her as a person commissioned to act a conspicuous part in mormonizing the world.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 26:00 But Smith declared her an imposter, and she returned to the place from when she came. Her visit however made a deep impression on the minds of many and the barbed arrow which she left in the hearts of some is not yet eradicated. I don’t like the word barbed arrow very much either like my name. But I understand what they’re saying here. But just the idea that he says is not yet eradicated.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 26:21 I mean this problem and this philosophy was very difficult to get out. But partially, it’s because there was no standard yet that had been set. They’re still in the process of understanding. But it was a difficult experience for Joseph the prophet as you can imagine.

Hank Smith: 26:37 Verse 3 says there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken meaning Joseph Smith if he abide in me. So, it seems to me that Joseph Smith and the Lord here are there’s a delicate balance between yes, you need to receive revelation, yes you need to go to the Lord for yourself, no you’re not going to receive revelation for the church. So, Joseph doesn’t want to squash revelation and say, “I’m the only one.”

Hank Smith: 27:03 But he also doesn’t want to make revelations. So, without boundary, that everybody’s up in arms. So, it seems, to me, it’d be a delicate and difficult balance.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 27:14 Absolutely, and I think that’s also what we’re seeing here is this is happening. And Joseph, I think, he doesn’t know for sure how he’s supposed to respond. And so, this revelation comes as an answer to Joseph’s prayer saying, “There’s this lady, and she’s clearly receiving different revelation than I am. What do I do?” So, he’s asking the Lord, “How do I handle this? What is the truth? How do I teach this?”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 27:37 And the Lord is explaining to Joseph for the first time Joseph is now receiving this revelation saying exactly what you just read, Hank. So, the Lord is tutoring Joseph in the process. And as you can imagine, Joseph, I mean I just think, “Wow, that is an extremely heavy piece of responsibility that Joseph has just received to know that he is the one to receive revelation for the church.” Others can receive revelation for their own lives as President Oaks talks about the two different lines of revelation.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 28:02 But as far as the one receiving revelation for the church, it’s the prophet. And no one will take his place until the Lord appoints that to happen.

Hank Smith: 28:09 Let me share something from there’s a four volume commentary by Stephen Robertson and Dean Garrett, both of whom I had classes from, and this on page 35 of volume 2. These protestant churches were very democratic in their structure working from the bottom up. And the new converts were mostly unfamiliar with the idea of a priesthood order working from the top down or a hierarchy of spiritual authorities over the church.

Hank Smith: 28:34 Thus, the Lord needed to make clear to the Kirtland saints how he would reveal his will to them in his restored church. I thought that was interesting because this is where they’re coming from.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 28:44 Yeah. It’s part of that family philosophy. I mean they were they were living this week called the law of consecration. They would say sharing, but it wasn’t just sharing of food and clothing. It was sharing of ideas and authority and everybody had a say. So, this is very different than what they were accustomed to at that time. No question.

Hank Smith: 29:00 Now, I see the Lord kind of giving the balance between them when he says in verse 5 this shall be a law unto you that you receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments. And then, you look at verse 8. He says, “I do want you assembled together instruct each other, edify each other.” But this idea of someone coming with you with prophetic revelation commandment, no. Instruct and edify each other. Yes, that’d be a difficult thing to learn as a new member, right, like where’s the boundary?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 29:32 Well, yeah, and I think verse seven as well, the Lord is saying to Joseph starting in verse six, “I give unto you that you may not be deceived.” And then, how are you not to be deceived? Well, the person that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before. They’re not going to be a backdoor person. They’re not going to be an unknown person all of a sudden who’s taking over. It’s going to be someone who is legitimately called of God, and that people have understood.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 29:52 He is going to be known as the prophet. And then, verse 8, I just love that. After being known that this is the prophet, the Lord, then requires people to act, and you see that in verse 8 how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law. So, he’s speaking literally to the leader. But also, he’s teaching the people you need to be acting.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 30:10 And then, in verse 9, act in holiness before me. This idea that we have a prophet, he speaks and is the responsibility of the prophet to act upon what God has said to him, and it’s the responsibility of the members of the church to act upon what the prophet has said for the church. This real need of people to actually do something according to the will of the Lord.

Hank Smith: 30:27 I love to see the boundaries being laid out and not to think that they should have known everything. They’re figuring it out. It’s being laid out in front of them. So, I’m learning to be more charitable towards the saints of the past just because Joseph Smith didn’t go to primary. He didn’t have young men. He didn’t have-

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 30:48 He didn’t have the articles of faith.

John Bytheway: 30:51 And this bishop didn’t have a handbook of instructions, and I did. And I’m still worried about. I asked the Lord, “Oh, boy. Lord, I hope I didn’t spend those fast offerings wrong.” Oh my goodness. Haunts me to this day.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 31:06 And no [inaudible 00:31:07] president. Nobody was going through the cupboards. Nobody was making assignments. There was no home teaching. I mean this is just so much. We’re so at the beginning. And the Lord again, I mean, we see this. But the Lord clearly again as you see this, he’s trying to get him to act, purge out the iniquity among the people as we see in verse 11. He continues on, provide for those. And then, verse 14, reserve unto myself a pure people before me.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 31:28 And then, you are not sent to teach. You’re not sent forth to be taught but to teach. So, this is a whole another level of responsibility for these very young members of the church. And then, again as we see in verse 16, you’re taught from on high sanctify yourselves, and you shall be endowed with power. So, he’s again preparing his people for the temple, preparing his people for this experience. I know I keep parking on that. But Ohio, there’s a reason for Ohio.

John Bytheway: 31:53 That’s why he told him to go.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 31:55 Yup. And I love verse 17, the great day of the Lord is at hand. Obviously, they thought that it was coming sooner. But the great day of the Lord is it.

John Bytheway: 32:01 Oh, I was laughing about that because… Sorry. But I’m looking back at section 41, verse 4. “And behold, I come quickly,” said the Lord 190 years ago. And so, we talked about this in a previous broadcast. But quickly can mean suddenly or in a time you think not.

Hank Smith: 32:25 We’ve covered the first half of 43 here, Barb. What’s the last half of 43?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 32:30 Oh, so, here we are talking about preparation for the people to be endowed with power, and I think that really does kind of lead into what we’re talking about. So, now the Lord is saying, “I need to prepare you.” And then, we’re talking about how the Lord is going to get their attention, verses 20 through 25, like I am going to get your attention. You need to repent. I’m going to shout at the trump of God, all of this.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 32:48 And then, he’s going to help us to understand his words and his voice is how often have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants and by the ministering of angels and by my own voice and by the voice of thunderings. He’s establishing how God uses revelation, how he uses his voice, and he’s establishing the prophet as one who is speaking for God which is extremely critical. And then, he leads us into the gathering of Israel which as we know from President Nelson is one of the most important topics of all time that we can [crosstalk 00:33:14] talking about.

John Bytheway: 33:13 The greatest words. Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 33:15 Yeah. The greatest work. So, he’s trying to lead us into the gathering of Israel. And then, you see verse 40… Sorry, verse 30, the great millennium. And then, the time where Satan is bound. And then, verse 34, behold, I am Jesus Christ, the savior of the world. Treasure these things up in your hearts, and let the solemnities of eternity rest upon your minds. I just love that so much. Be sober. Keep all my commandments even so, amen. So, he’s going to just bring it all in.

Hank Smith: 33:38 Two things that impressed me this year with the prophet are these little hints that the Lord drops in these sections, and there’s no possible way Joseph Smith knows the next 10 years hold, and you’re getting tiny little hints here and there. First with priesthood power, and then, it was, oh, we’re going to have a church. Wait. What? A church? Oh and now, we’re going to move to Ohio. What is that about Ohio? And then, Barb, as you’ve been pointing out, I’m preparing you with an endowment of power.

Hank Smith: 34:08 The Lord is just moving them along so slowly and gently. And the second thing that’s impressed me is that the Lord takes these situations like Miss Hubble and turns it into a revelation about the second coming, the millennium, and the gathering of Israel.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 34:27 Why not?

Hank Smith: 34:29 It’s not a simple answer to, oh yeah, let’s could-

John Bytheway: 34:31 That could have been one verse. Don’t listen to her.

Hank Smith: 34:34 Yeah. And instead, he says, “Okay. Now, that we’ve addressed that, it almost reminds me of Joseph Smith saying, “Many other things which he said unto me which I cannot write at this time.” He’s just so generous with, oh, be prepared for the second coming. Be prepared for the gathering of Israel, the great millennium. In verse 30, Satan to be bound. And then, he finishes with such a beautiful like capstone statement, “I am Jesus Christ, the savior of the world,” we just talked about. I think it was Mike Wilcox who said Joseph Smith writes with the pen of heaven, and he does.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 35:11 So well said, Hank. I just think we’re going to see this later on in the [inaudible 00:35:16]. So, I’m not going to blow it yet. But there are going to be other times in the future where the Lord says, “You think you can write a revelation?” [crosstalk 00:35:26] But in this case, it’s almost like he’s saying, “Okay. Mrs. Hubble, I’ll show you a revelation.” He kind of puts you in your place. We see that here like, “You think you have a revelation?” I’ll use my prophet.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 35:38 And then, you have verse section 45 which is coming is like, “Let me just really give you a revelation.” If anybody’s wondering about Mrs. Hubble, that you should no longer have need to wonder because this is what revelation looks like for the prophet. And we see that today with President Nelson as well.

Hank Smith: 35:56 I think it reminds me of President of Elder Holland saying, “The adversary cannot imitate the real thing.” The real thing blows you out of the water.

John Bytheway: 36:04 And that leads us to section 44, Barb. We’re going to have yet another conference.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 36:10 We sure are. It’s the first conference in Ohio but the fourth conference of the church. This is extremely significant. Again, we’re in February of 1831. The church has already been established in New York. But this conference is going to allow for the church to be established now in Ohio. So, Ohio has their own rules, their own regulations, their own laws, government laws. And they are going to be needing to satisfy these laws. And this fourth general conference that we want to call it that way is these elders gathering together, they’re going to organize the church according to the laws of Ohio, and that’s where we’re getting this section 44.

Hank Smith: 36:45 Yeah. That’s verse 4, according to the laws of man. Anything else in section 44 you want us to know, Barb? I love how he says, “I want you to get called together, and I’ll pour out my spirit.”

John Bytheway: 36:56 Assemble yourselves together.

Hank Smith: 36:58 They assemble themselves together. That reminds me of general conference every April and every October. I feel a pouring out of the spirit and increase of the spirit.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 37:07 Yeah. We have about, at this point, we’re close to 2000 members living now if I remember right, now that we have all this combination coming together. And the Lord is going to really talk to this group about the importance of discipleship as they’re now in Ohio. They’re going to be some really hard heavy times coming in their way. He’s going to talk to them about loving each other and caring about each other, and he has this that your enemies may not have power over you, and he gives them these things that they should be doing to be able to withstand some of these evil forces, and he talks about power in verse four.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 37:40 And then, he also talks about some of these simple things. Keep my law in verse five. And then, verse six, visit the poor and the needy. Administer to their relief that they may be kept until all things may be done according to my law. These are the kinds of things that as you already alluded to that we hear in general conference, that we love each other, that we take care of each other, that we are assembled together, and there are purposes of and power that comes from joining together and gathering. And this is continuing that process of the gathering of Israel.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 38:05 But it’s also the gathering of the saints at that time. Again, as Elder Bednar says, “One of the major purposes of gathering is to build these temples. The purpose of temples then is to help us come to Christ, et cetera, et cetera.” So, it’s just this eternal round that we talk about in the scriptures.

Hank Smith: 38:17 The work rolls forth here in these sections. We’re going to keep going, keep on going.

John Bytheway: 38:22 Oh, what a treat, Barbara. Thank you so much.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 38:26 Thank you. [crosstalk 00:38:26] It’s been so fun.

John Bytheway: 38:27 Yeah. Barb, you are a lot of fun. I knew you would be.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 38:31 The scriptures are fun. It’s a kick in the pants. Can you go wrong? And these are some fun scriptures here.

Hank Smith: 38:36 Yup. This is really fun.

John Bytheway: 38:38 Talking with some friends at the [inaudible 00:38:40].

Hank Smith: 38:40 Barb, you’re a historian. You’re a gospel scholar. You’ve been teaching the scriptures. You’ve been teaching church history for over 20 years. So, you don’t look it.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 38:49 Thanks, Hand. You either.

Hank Smith: 38:49 Yeah. I would love to hear your personal-

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 38:52 You either, John.

John Bytheway: 38:53 Yeah. You either, John.

Hank Smith: 38:55 I would love to hear your personal thoughts, Joseph Smith, the restoration, what it’s done for you personally. As John said, you wrote a chapter why we stay.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 39:06 Yeah. That’s such a loaded question. I have so many thoughts. I’ll just share a short experience. When I was a teenager, I had this horrible dream, and I was running all over downtown Salem, Oregon where I’m trying to find something, and it was so random. I mean I ran into George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and Harriet Beecher. I mean I was running all these historians everywhere into famous actors and basketball players. And finally, I stopped, and I don’t even know who I stopped in front of.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 39:34 And somebody just said, “Barb, what are you looking for?” And I just said, “I have to know the truth. I just have to know the truth.” I remember that dream so well because I was so intrigued. And as a child, I asked questions. I was raised in a family where questions were critical. And I’m grateful that my parents allowed that.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 39:56 My dad was a stake president when I was a teenager, and he was a convert to the church. And I remember one day him saying to me after a basketball game… Actually, it was a volleyball game, and he could tell that I was just pretty much distraught, and I started crying, and he was like, “Did you lose?” I was like, “Well, yeah, but we always lose.” That wasn’t the problem. The problem was I was riding home on the bus with a number of my friends, and they were asking me every question under the sun about the gospel. Why we were baptizing people for the dead? And why the horns? And why Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon? Where are the gold plates and all these questions?

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 40:24 And I said to my dad something to the effect of, “I will never go to church again until I know this is true.” And I was so scared to say that because I had 11 older siblings, and they were pretty much perfect in my eyes and so were my parents. But I was serious. And my dad just simply said to me, “Well, what are you going to do about it?”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 40:42 Rather than just saying, “No, you’re going to church or anything….” And sometimes, that works. Every parent has a different relationship, and it works differently with different kids. But in my case, he did the right thing for me, and I believe he had revelation to ask that question, and it put me on a search for truth through the scriptures and through prayer and asking additional questions.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 41:00 I remember clearly reading and Timothy ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and I remember I had every answer for every question my friends were asking me. And, in fact, it was embarrassing how much I knew intellectually at that age but didn’t have a testimony of. And I thought I did. But I recognized quickly I didn’t.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 41:18 And during that next few years as a teenager, I just studied everything I could and took things to the Lord over and over and over again into my teachers and to my parents, and I legitimately searched for truth, and I can say I found it. I can say I found it the same way that the revelations are being given in the doctrine and covenants. I found it piece by piece, lined upon line, precept by precept. The Lord made himself known to me at that age. But he continued to make himself known to me, and he’s continued to let me struggle. He’s continued to let me get frustrated. He’s continued to guide me in questions, and he’s guided me in giving me more questions.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 42:01 But what I have found is as I have studied more and as I have studied the scriptures, as I have pondered deeply, and mostly as I listened to the Lord and spoken with him and counseled with him, he has clearly taught me that these things that I know are true, so much so just as Nephi and other prophets of old and women as well I’m sure, can’t keep it inside. I know it’s true. That’s why I served a mission. That’s why I teach the gospel. That’s why I continue to study. That’s why I continue to love it because the more I study, the deeper I get.

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 42:40 I’m nerdy. But I got my latest copy of the Joseph Smith papers, and I ran up to my office and just started sucking it. I just wanted to soak every piece of it because it’s true. And the more I read and the more I study, the more the Lord’s spirit testifies to me of what I am studying is true. And now, it’s built in that confidence, I guess, in me where I want to have more questions, and I want to study more because he continues to prove himself to me over and over and over again to the point where I would say, “This sounds strong, but I do believe this.”

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 43:14 I may be having this conversation with you, John and Hank. I don’t know. But I do know that God lives. That is more true to me and my testimony of Jesus Christ. It’s more true to me than what I can see with my eyes and hear with my ears. It’s just true. I just know it. What I read confirms it. What I study confirms it. What I think about confirms it. What the spirit teaches me confirms it. It’s just it’s in me and through me.

Hank Smith: 43:41 Yeah. And to us, who you are confirms it. You’re a joy to be around. You’re a joy to be friends with. John, I’ve got another episode in the books and every time I think we can’t top it, we top it.

John Bytheway: 43:54 Yeah, and I think-

Dr. Barbara Gar…: 43:55 You guys are good.

John Bytheway: 43:56 … if we were going through one of my biology textbooks, it would just not be this fun. But we get to have these scriptures to go through, and that is part of why this works in spite of us and maybe because of us, but maybe in spite of us.

Hank Smith: 44:11 I’m with you there. I’m with you there. We want to thank Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner for being with us today. You’ve just been a phenomenal guest. Thank you for everyone who took the time to listen. We’re grateful for your support. We’re grateful and thankful to our producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, our production team David Perry, Lisa Spice, and Jamie Nielsen. And we hope you will all join us on our next episode of followHIM.