Hank Smith:  00:01  Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway:  00:09  And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith:  00:11  We love to learn.

John Bytheway:  00:11  We love to laugh.

Hank Smith:  00:13  We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway:  00:15  As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith:  00:20  Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. I’m your host Hank Smith. And I’m here with my cunning hunter co-host John Bytheway.

John Bytheway:  00:32  That has a certain Esau ring to it. Doesn’t it?

Hank Smith:  00:35  It does. Yes. I was going to say plain man after Jacob, I figured cunning hunter you’d feel a little more complimented if I said it that way. We are in Genesis again this week, Genesis chapters 24 through 27. And John we’ve been waiting for this interview for a while because both of us have ties to our guest. Can you tell everyone who’s with us?

John Bytheway:  01:06  Yes. We’re so happy to welcome Dr. Camille Fronk Olson, she had faith in me so I am still teaching. Hank, she had faith in you so you’re teaching. We were joking before, we know she’ll be held accountable for that. But Camille is a retired professor, former chair of BYU’s Department of Ancient Scripture in Religious Education. She’s a scholar who’s written multiple books on the role of women in the scriptures, which is perfect for today. She’s also spoken widely in various forms on latter day saint beliefs, especially as they relate to women. She was born and raised in Tremonton, Utah, served a mission in the France Toulouse mission in Southern France. She has a bachelor’s degree in education from Utah State University, an MA, and listen to this, in west Asian studies and a PhD in sociology of the Middle East from BYU. She began her educational career as a full-time seminary teacher at a time when few women held that position. She was then on the faculty of LDS Business College, and that’s been renamed  Ensign College now where she also served as the Dean of students. She was a full-time member of BYU’s Ancient Scripture faculty in religious education. She’s also served as a member of the Young Women General Board and as a professor at the BYU Jerusalem Center. I was just going to hold this up because this is like one of the most beautiful books on my shelves behind me, Women of the Old Testament. I mean the paper, the illustrations, Hank, they don’t publish books like this, I get recycled newsprint in my books. These are gorgeous, beautiful illustrated. But I love that she has done so much on women in the scriptures and in the Old Testament. And we’re going to benefit from that today. So we’re so glad to have you here, Camille, as a friend and as a respected colleague. Thanks for coming.

Dr. Camille Olson:  03:08  Thank you. Old Testament women, oh there are so many and their stories are so unique and in such different time period. By women of the New Testament, which is the same size and format, I’ve actually got four women of the Old Testament in that one to introduce it, because this is the way Matthew introduced Jesus Christ. So that’s where you find Tamar and Rahab and Ruth and Bathsheba, very interesting. You cannot tell the story of God’s people at any time without seeing women figure very prominently.

Hank Smith:  03:50  John, Camille, today Genesis 24 through 27, maybe how do you approach ancient scripture differently than you approach other scripture Old Testament versus New Testament? Anything like that?

Dr. Camille Olson:  04:05  Well, I think the Bible specifically Old and New Testament, but probably even more Old Testament, it is just so critical to get the whole background story. It’s so easy to just take these stories out of their context and place them in our 21st century Elders Quorums and Relief Societies, and go immediately to modern day applications. Every time we do that, these people are stranger and do weirder things, and you just want to say I can’t do the Old Testament, let’s just jettison. I wish I could time travel and I would go back and just see life there. It would be fascinating. And we would be so impressed with their intellect and their hearts and their understanding of things that we do not understand today. But it is a very different culture, and the more we can understand that culture, the more we can appreciate what they dealt with and maybe be less judgmental of some of the decisions that they made.

Dr. Camille Olson:  05:15  The other thing I think different from say, the Book of Mormon, especially, and that is the Old Testament shows the humanness of all these individuals. I’ve often said, you cannot confuse the Lord with any of the other characters, he stands out. The others have need for a redeemer, very clearly.

John Bytheway:  05:44  I can discern between me and thee.

Dr. Camille Olson:  05:46  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes people in the Book of Mormon and you think they’re doing pretty fine, they don’t need an atonement. I mean, we can make them into such heroes. And if we’re not careful, we will do that to people, especially prophets in the Old Testament and the Book of Genesis, especially in these chapters we’re in, these are imperfect people trying to do the best they can. The Lord empowers them to do beyond their natural ability even when they continue to stumble and fall. And that ought to be very encouraging to us.

John Bytheway:  06:23  I mean, does the firstborn ever get a birthright or is that just a tradition that we talk about that never happens?

Dr. Camille Olson:  06:30  It’s much more fluid than I think a lot of times, we like to make things so simple and they follow these rules. Talk about dysfunctional families, I just think you look at Abraham’s family tree. And people that just get upset when sometimes multiple marriages, premature deaths, adoptions, divorces,

John Bytheway:  06:55  Sibling rivalries.

Dr. Camille Olson:  06:59  Sibling rivalries, estranged members of the family. We get them all. We get them all. I think trying to understand and appreciate that they had laws and expectations, in some ways different than we have opportunities today, and they can teach us. The main thing I just keep saying, we can get so caught up in stories and personalities sometimes and trying to exonerate some or making others look so terrible so that we don’t hurt somebody else, we forget the purpose of story is to bring us to Jesus Christ and these stories are here to help us find him. Old Testament, he’s the focal point, always, he must be. These men and women help us to see him better.

John Bytheway:  07:51  One of the things I have really enjoyed about teaching the Book of Mormon was I noticed that the plan of salvation, it’s only called that three times, it’s called about 15 times the plan of redemption and the idea of a redeemer and a need for a redeemer. And then I noticed the ones using the phrase were mostly Alma and the sons of Mosiah because they knew they needed a redeemer. And I’m looking at what you just said in the Old Testament, these folks, we’re trying to exonerate them but they all needed a redeemer, that’s the point. Point us to Christ.

Dr. Camille Olson:  08:27  That is, and it shows his power on every single page.

Hank Smith:  08:32  One thing I’ve been impressed with Camille is that here’s the Tower of Babel, the world has gone bad, the Lord chooses Abraham and Sarah to save the world and he stays with them despite their, like you said, they stumble around. He could say, you know what, let’s choose another couple.

John Bytheway:  08:54  Back to the old drawing board.

Hank Smith:  08:55  I think he messed up here. Yeah. He stays with this family, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and Rachel, and Bilhah, and all the rest. He stays with them. He doesn’t give up on them.

Dr. Camille Olson:  09:08  That is right. I think that’s the whole context, and we’re talking mainly about Isaac and Rebekah and their immediate family here. I think we keep in mind, this is a family and those generations are interconnected. You have to place Isaac and Rebekah and their sons, Esau and Jacob in this larger context with not only Abraham and Sarah, but Hagar, it’s coming through in this story. And then the next generation with not only Leah and Rachel, but Bilhah and Zilpah, and it’ll go on to the 12 sons and then the next generation with Manasseh and Ephraim, and Joseph’s wife, Asenath. There’s something in that whole big picture that shows us that God’s power and authority to pronounce his blessings was given through these heads of this extended family. But he trusted also they needed a matriarch or their wives to have a very significant position, and they actively influenced the wellbeing of these families and created an environment where life could progress and achieve God’s plan. They were very, very important.

Dr. Camille Olson:  10:37  The thing I find about these stories in Genesis, they’re easy to do jokes with, and I think very often some of these stories have become comedic that we diminish the roles of these women into just having children, how many babies they can have, and the competition among them. It’s far greater than this. It underscores the importance of the entire family and God’s plan from the beginning to do it through families.

Hank Smith:  11:07  This is great. Yeah. These women do not take backstage roles, they are receiving revelation and directing the course of the family.

Dr. Camille Olson:  11:16  It’s in the very end of section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants that we read that Sarah administered to her husband, administered. I’ve just gotten onto how much of an administrative role that all those women had in those generations, that the husbands needed them. We go clear back to Adam and Eve when Eve was called a help-meet for Adam. And these women needed help at a time where the husbands needed inspiration in their leadership.

Dr. Camille Olson:  11:55  Big picture, this is just getting us started, but just to see this. Remember back in Genesis 21, God directed Abraham to harken to Sarah’s voice when it had to do with Isaac and Ishmael, turning them together. Hagar received the witness of an angel of the Lord concerning the important role of her unborn son. In Genesis 16, the Lord talked directly to her and sent her back and as a result, both she and her son when he’s born, Ishmael, receive part of the covenant. That’s critical. God revealed to Rebekah, and we’re going to see this in this time about before her children were born that she was going to have twins and that the younger one would serve, would be the leader.

Dr. Camille Olson:  12:45  Despite all the tension between Leah and Rachel it seems, there’s a moment that I just think is so powerful in Genesis 31, where Jacob is leaving, the Lord tells him he needs to leave that homeland of Leah and Rachel and leave their father Laban and he brings those wives together and sits down and says, what shall I do? And they said, do what the Lord commanded you to do. It’s a family decision. Tamar saves Judah’s bacon, I’m telling you. Chapter 38 of Genesis we rarely talk about, before the story of Tamar, Judah wants to kill his brother Joseph, sells him off to Egypt. I mean, he’s a pretty rotten brother. And after Tamar, he’s willing to give his own life for his brother Benjamin. The way to understand that, it’s Tamar and she saves Judah’s lineage who is intent on having the Canaanites’ more influence in his life, and Tamar changes that. It’s a fascinating thing to read her as being in the lineage of Jesus Christ. I love it.

Hank Smith:  13:59  Right. In Matthew one, right?

Dr. Camille Olson:  14:03  And then, if you even go as far as Moses, Zipporah. Again, this is Joseph Smith translation, but the Lord is ready to take Moses’ life. That’s not a part of the story that we often look at, but you’re reading the Joseph Smith translation. He, for some reason, wouldn’t circumcise his son. Zipporah finds the rock and she says, “I’ll do it,” and it saves Moses’ life. These stories, collectively and individually, show that we are stronger when we work together. Men and women working together using the talents and inspiration that God gives each one of us, and that’s what shapes Israel. That’s what is the foundation for all of Israel. In concert with their husbands’ divinely appointed assignments, these women establish a people who had pledged allegiance to the God of Abraham in a very polytheistic world. It’s wonderful.

Dr. Camille Olson:  14:58  And maybe I could do just one other, just to kind of just see these, all of this in perspective. It is section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants verse 37, talking about plural marriage, specifically, we’ll get into with Isaac and Rebekah. But I’m just going to read that verse. “Abraham received concubines and they bore him children, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness because they were given unto him and he abode in my law.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  15:27  So right there, we’re saying, again, from the Doctrine and Covenants what the Lord told Joseph Smith. These multiple wives, this family situation he’s well aware of. “As Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded. And because they did none other things and that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones and are not angels, but are gods.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  15:58  That tells us very specifically the future of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but we know from both that section and section 131, exaltation is not given individually. Can’t you read in that? This includes Hagar and Zilpah and Bilhah, and they are all in there. And I think that is something helpful to remember before we just want to throw some of them that we don’t really agree with under the bus. But the Lord’s going to exalt them. It’s very powerful.

Hank Smith:  16:32  That’s a big picture overview that we need to have. We need to be able to place now this little story in the big story-

Dr. Camille Olson:  16:38  Yes. Yep. Yep.

Hank Smith:  16:39  … where it belongs.

Dr. Camille Olson:  16:40  Yep. Okay. Main characters, Isaac and Rebekah here, and what is interesting in this generation I think is that we learn a lot more about Rebekah in these chapters than we learn about Isaac. In fact, Isaac, as an adult is more often in the background, more of a passive character, and Rebekah is this dynamic power of force. And that already sets this off as just being this like, oh wait, that’s not the way it should be. But I don’t know if there is a couple that represents what we should be. They have different talents.

Dr. Camille Olson:  17:21  And so I found this talk given in October 1972 General Conference, Elder Theodore Tuttle. He took it from a verse in Genesis 26, speaking of Isaac called Altar, Tent, and Well, because that’s what… Isaac built an altar and he called upon the name of the Lord and he pitched his tent and dug his well. He gives a perspective that I think that sometimes we can miss because Isaac is quieter. We don’t see him so dynamic in these chapters.

Dr. Camille Olson:  17:55  This is what he said, “Altar, Tent, and Well. Isaac did not become an Abraham or a Jacob. He did not reach the heights of Abraham, called the Father of the Faithful, nor is he as impressive as his son, Israel, Father of the 12 Tribes. Yet Isaac is loved and revered. He worshiped God, cared for his home, and pursued his work. He is remembered simply as a man of peace. The eloquent simplicity of his life and his unique ability to lend importance to the commonplace made him great. Altar, Tent and Well. His worship, his home, his work, these basic things of life signified his relationship to God, his family and his fellow men. Every person on earth is touched by these three.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  18:50  Kind of a nice way to think about Isaac too. You don’t have to be the gregarious, out there commanding in all things. There’s a peacefulness about Isaac. And then by contrast, here, we have Rebekah. Her individuality and vitality among the covenant people is striking in these stories, and we see her using that individuality and her agency to make choices and free to decide how she will act to fit her perception of what’s best for her family. And so this dynamic is what we’re going to run into.

Dr. Camille Olson:  19:28  Should we start here at chapter 24? We start out, Abraham was old and well-stricken in age. We get in the next chapter, chapter 25, verse 7 and 8, he dies. Sometimes I’ve wondered if chapter 25 is perhaps a little out of context. If his death could have happened before Rebekah ever joins the family, and I’ll tell you why I might think that. But we don’t see Abraham after Rebekah comes back. We don’t see any connection there. But Abraham is old. Sarah has already died, right? The chapter before, in chapter 23 versus 1 and 2, Sarah has died. And it seems like, yes, the Lord has blessed Abraham in all things, except he’s seeing the end of his life. Remember how old he was when Isaac was born? So it’s not surprising that here he’s thinking Isaac hasn’t married, and Abraham was promised the sands of the sea, and it’s looking pretty single kernel of sand-ish right now.

John Bytheway:  20:37  Not exactly a beach yet.

Dr. Camille Olson:  20:40  He’s anxious to make sure that next generation is taken care of. And what was very common, arranged marriages in that day. He’s in the land that God has given him as an inheritance, and he sends his servant back to where he came from to see if there’s some covenant people up there, or I should say… believers that he could find, the servant could find a wife for Isaac. He doesn’t want them to marry among the Canaanites that surround him.

Dr. Camille Olson:  21:11  I’ve often thought, Melchizedek was around not long ago, right? Not far that Abraham paid tithes to him. But it does appear from the Joseph Smith translation that he and his people have gone to meet the city of Enoch, and so that would’ve been convenient to find Isaac a wife there, among those people. But he sends him back to his own country. He has his servant make this oath with him. And you see this, in verse 2, “I pray thee thy hand, put thy hand under my thigh,” which is a quirky way of making an oath.

Hank Smith:  21:47  Is this a Joseph Smith translation to a hand clasp? 

John Bytheway:    A covenant of some kind that way?

Dr. Camille Olson:  21:54  I don’t know. Yeah. I think it would make sense to us, a hand clasp, that’s how we would do it, but they might have had a way of doing this back then that was different. The idea is we don’t need to get hung up on that. It’s the idea that they had an agreement. We think this could be Eleazar because that’s the servant of Abraham’s that he’s so close to, but it never says his name specifically there. But I do always wonder if that’s who it is. He trusts him and he sends him up with all these camels and a lot more men.

Dr. Camille Olson:  22:23  But notice in verse 5, the servant is concerned saying, “What if she won’t come?” I mean, you think about this. This is going to a land, and he’ll be bringing a woman that’ll never return to her homeland again. It is quite a remarkable marriage negotiation, perhaps different from some of the others because of the distance that’s involved here, and not knowing the family that this daughter is going to marry into except by reputation perhaps, if they are really connected. And so the servant is worried.

Dr. Camille Olson:  22:55  Verse 7, I love this. Abraham says to him, “The Lord, God of heaven, which took me from my father’s house and from the land of my kindred, and said to me,” look at the end of that verse “unto the seed will I give this land. He shall send his angel before thee, and thou shall take a wife unto my son from thence.” He’s confident the Lord is going to do that. And then verse 8, “If the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be clear from my oath; only bring not my son thither again.” Don’t take him up there if she won’t come. We ought to pause there. He allows the woman to have a say in this.

John Bytheway:  23:35  Yes. There’s consent and agency.

Dr. Camille Olson:  23:36  Yes, it’s very important. And I think sometimes when we talk about patriarchal era, because this is a time where people lived in families, in family clans, and there’s not a city government over them, it is family, patriarchal, that we think women had no say. And we see it in this story many times the agency of Rebekah. Verse 10, they take his 10 camels. And it says in verse 10, “All the goods of his master were in his hands.” Well, we know very well his master is exceptionally wealthy, right, and we think of a number of servants he has alone. But could this be perhaps a document that outlines Abraham’s assets-

John Bytheway:  24:26  Property. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  24:27  … all of that and how impressive it is, because he’s going to need to show that to the bride’s family to show this family can take care of your daughter.

Hank Smith:  24:37  I didn’t have that when I got married. I didn’t have a list of assets.

John Bytheway:  24:40  If I just show you my balance sheet as an –

Dr. Camille Olson:  24:42  Yeah. Yeah.

John Bytheway:  24:44  … incentive, if you want to go out with me or not.

Dr. Camille Olson:  24:47  Yeah. That was part of the negotiation that a family would not put their daughter in a situation where she wasn’t taken care of. And so there would’ve been gifts or a bride price that the servant would’ve taken up… I mean, 10 camels. What are you taking up there? There’s some stuff that they’re going to leave up there for the bride’s family because they’re going to take her away. And she’s very valuable. I mean, this tells you how valuable daughters were too. Her work, her contribution to the family, to the clan would be important, and this is compensation for that.

Dr. Camille Olson:  25:24  So he goes up, it’s up in Mesopotamia. This is like we see later in these chapters, Paddan Aram. Aram is another name that we refer to as Syria. It could be as much as like 800, 900 miles. I mean, it’s a distance and taking all of this stuff. So he gets up there, and not surprising, end of verse 11, it’s evening. And where does he know the women will be in the evening? Women draw the water, and morning and evening are the times you’re going to need the water.

Dr. Camille Olson:  25:57  And so he goes to the well, and here’s his prayer. First thing, the steps he takes, he knows he cannot succeed without the Lord, and the Lord is with him all the way here. “Oh Lord God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day.” Oh, can you imagine the responsibility to find the right woman who is going to be the matriarch in this companionship to secure and guard and protect the covenant for the next generation?

John Bytheway:  26:31  For millennia after too.

Dr. Camille Olson:  26:33  Yeah. Yeah.

Hank Smith:  26:35  I can say, Camille, I know a little bit of the pressure of finding a woman who would be willing to take on a huge project, but-

Dr. Camille Olson:  26:44  But could you think of doing that for your son or for someone else?

Hank Smith:  26:50  Right.

John Bytheway:  26:50  And for Abraham, you know what Abraham’s been promised, and you have to go, “I can’t get this wrong, Lord. You got to help me.”

Dr. Camille Olson:    Yeah.

Hank Smith:  26:57  Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  26:58  And I think he’s seen and watched Sarah, and saying we got to have someone that can be strong like Sarah. It reminds me a little bit of the brother of Jared, where he comes up with a plan and then said, “Hey, will this work?” And this is the way the Lord asks us a lot of times, isn’t it, to suggest… So here’s the servant’s plan. “I stand here by the well of water and the daughters of the men of the city come to draw water, and let it come to pass that the damsel to whom I shall say let down my pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she say drink and I will give thy camel’s drink also. Let the same be she that has been appointed for my servant, Isaac.” Because there’s all these women. How do I know? Don’t you love it? Verse 15, “And it came to pass before he had done speaking.” Oh, yeah.

John Bytheway:  27:45  Yeah. The Lord is fast.

Dr. Camille Olson:  27:48  And suddenly here comes Rebekah. We are told this and we’re even told her lineage. And see, the servant doesn’t know this yet, but it is so good. She’s the daughter of Bethuel, who’s the son of Milcah, who’s the wife of Nahor, who’s Abraham’s brother, she’s coming with her pitcher on her shoulder. Oh, this is just too good. But all the servant sees is, “Oh, here’s this damsel who’s very fair to look upon.” And in some ways, I want to say at that age, young women all are beautiful. And when she is also God fearing, and honest, and true, she is, you can almost see, there’s just a glow about her. She’s a virgin, “Neither hath any man known her.” Go down to the footnote, “Known the like unto her.” Oh, Joseph Smith translations, she just stands out. You can see a little light just glowing around Rebekah. He notices her. And verse 17. He’s not waiting around. Watch this. “He ran to meet her.” I love the verbs in this story. And he says, “Let me, I pray thee drink, a little of I pitcher.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  29:06  And she said, drink my Lord. And then how does she respond? She hasted, I mean, she’s going fast. And she gave him to drink. And then she says almost before he can finish drinking, it seems like, I’ll give water to thy camels also until they have done drinking. And she hasted and emptied her pitcher into the trough and ran again to the well, to draw water, and drew for all his camels. I mean, some have tried to figure out how many gallons of water she’d be drawing for 10 camels. And I don’t know how far we go into this, but the idea is you can see she has energy. She’s not afraid of work. There’s a hospitality and service orientation about her.

Hank Smith:  29:51  It’s not like this is the first time she’s ever done this. She knows what she’s doing.

Dr. Camille Olson:  29:55  I think she’s got some serious muscle. You know, she doesn’t have to go to the gym. She’s got it. She’s there. And the man wondering at her held his peace. He’s just in awe. Talk about easy. The Lord’s made this so easy. And so that fast, in verse 22, as the camels had done dreaming, the man took out this golden ring or earring, just come over here, let’s see. Verse 47. We get a little bit more about that earring. “I put the earring upon her face.” In the Hebrew… I love to point this out because it gets you right there. This is perhaps a different culture.

Dr. Camille Olson:  30:35  This is clearly a nose ring that he gives her. She has it on her face, just a little ring that goes on the one nostril. And so I love the details when you start visualizing. And then he gives her these two bracelets and the weight of this jewelry, it’s heavy. This is serious gold here. And two bracelets is a typical kind of a wedding gift or for a bridal gift because it represents man and woman creating a new family, the two bracelets. And so he’s already moving on this, if you noticed, he’s starting giving away the presents.

Hank Smith:  31:12  The gifts.

Dr. Camille Olson:  31:12  And he asks, “Whose daughter art though? is there room in your house that I might be able to stay?” And then she tells him what we already know about her lineage. And tells also in verse 25. Yep. We have plenty of room if you’d like to stay. You know, this servant is as God fearing as his master Abraham, as he finds that out, look that immediately, verse 26, “The man bowed down his head and worshipped the Lord.” And he says, “blessed be the Lord, God of my master, Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth. I being in the way the Lord led me to the house of my master’s brethren.” Can I just do an insert just as I read that. I want to do a shout out to Elder Uchtdorf’s general conference talk last October. October, 2021, especially with the footnotes.

Dr. Camille Olson:  32:08  He starts out talking about the way, and if you follow those footnotes, it just hit me. Christ is the way. Think of what he taught in the new… I am the way, the truth, and the life. It is his way. It is him. Lehi’s path. Now, I got thinking of this. That path leading to the tree of life. There’s Christ at the tree of life. There’s Christ with the fruit of the tree of life. But he’s the path. He’s the iron rod. He’s the way. So, every time now I run into where it says the way, I put Christ in there. I got that from Elder Uchtdorf’s General Conference talk on the way.

John Bytheway:  32:51  This is one of the reasons I love my last name.

Dr. Camille Olson:  32:55  B-T-W. I do too.

John Bytheway:  32:57  I was holding my scriptures once over my thumb, of the personalized and it was covering everything, but the way, and I was like oh, my name tells me to be by the way.

Dr. Camille Olson:  33:12  Oh that.

John Bytheway:  33:12  Jesus is the way. So I joke about it a lot, but I love that I have the way in my name.

Dr. Camille Olson:  33:18  That is good.

Hank Smith:  33:20  Camille, I feel like I’ve had these moments before, where I am shocked at how things worked out. Right? Just are you kidding?

Dr. Camille Olson:  33:30  And I think you see that in these stories. And when you see these in these stories, it reminds you to look at your own life and you see, he has been there to show us the way as well.

Hank Smith:  33:41  Yeah. He says I stopped at a well, and I found the right girl, and this is just amazing. Right? I love those moments of amazement that things have worked out.

Dr. Camille Olson:  33:53  You know, he knows immediately, this is the Lord’s doing. He’s not taking credit at all. And look at verse 28. I think reading between the lines does Rebekah, is she clueing into this? Does she have any emotion about what’s going on? And the damsel ran, oh, she’s fast, and told them of her mother’s house, these things. I mean, I think she’s excited. She has a clue of what’s happening here. She’s got the jewelry, and I think she’s excited, but the negotiations haven’t happened.

Dr. Camille Olson:  34:28  And you ought to also pick up whose house is she running to? Her mother’s house. That is very unusual. We know her father is Bethuel, but with one little side reference over here in verse 50, it’s the only time we read of him there. I would like to suggest that Bethuel might have passed away already. Because all the negotiations, it’s the mother and Rebecca’s brother Laban, and it’s her house. But it also then underscores her leadership. She is chief of the house. It hasn’t fallen to Laban’s house. It’s not my brother’s house. It’s my mother’s house. And that tells us something else about this patriarchal era as well.

Hank Smith:  35:12  How can we emphasize this more? He got this idea for this, I’ll stop by the well, and the right person will come out.

John Bytheway:  35:20  Yeah. Usually, you don’t tell the Lord what sign to give you. But I love that he was so eager to get it right.

Dr. Camille Olson:  35:27  There are times we say, I’ve got to get this right. And I’ve got to be able to know. Can you help me? This is one way I could recognize it. Of course, he doesn’t have to do it that way. But oftentimes he likes us to think it through and maybe come up with something, especially like in the decisions about marriage. That we have a feel, that we connect with it. And it’s not just saying very coldly. There’s a person go marry that person. And no emotion in it at all. That we might say, if I can feel this, or if this can happen, there is just something that I think the Lord can bring it into a way that we could recognize and understand. And you don’t get the idea that the Lord is upset that he’s made this suggestion.

John Bytheway:  36:20  Right. Love verse 50. “The thing proceeded from the Lord.” It’s like then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, the thing proceeded from the Lord. He’s made it obvious. We don’t want to get in the way of the Lord’s will here, because he’s made it clear.

Dr. Camille Olson:  36:33  And that verse 50, I think has an important… That tells you where this family of Bethuel is coming from. Are they believers? And that’s critically important as well. This is not just because they’ve got the right lineage, and they’ve got some wealth and they’ve raised their daughter up well to be a good, hard worker. And she’s beautiful. They’re believers.

John Bytheway:  36:55  And she runs a lot.

Hank Smith:  36:56  Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  36:56  And she runs a lot. Let’s not forget that. She’s one fit cookie. Yes.

John Bytheway:  37:03  The cross country team of Syria there.

Dr. Camille Olson:  37:07  Rebecca had a brother, verse 29, and his name was Laban. We’re going to see Laban the next generation, because he’s going to have two daughters that come into this family as well. Right?

John Bytheway:  37:17  Same Laban.

Dr. Camille Olson:  37:18  And Laban ran out unto the man. When he saw this, he can’t wait for the servant to get there. He runs out to meet him. This is just too good. You know, he got a little hint of the wealth. When he saw the jewelry on Rebecca, they bring him in, they’re ready to feed him and wash his feet, all the hospitality. And look at the end of verse 33, the servant says, “I will not eat until I have told you my errand.” I mean, he’s got to say, I don’t want to mess this up. Let me finish and make sure this is going to work. I can’t relax and have a dinner yet.

John Bytheway:  37:53  You have got to hear this. It sounds like that too.

Dr. Camille Olson:  37:56  And he just goes on. You get the whole story again. He tells it-

John Bytheway:  38:00  I was there at the well, and I said if you could… Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson:  38:04  Including I was promised an angel would be there. Verse 40. “The Lord before whom I walk will send his angel before thee and prosper thy way.” He quotes Abraham. That’s an important part of what he was doing there. I want to just point out though, as we’re going through this, he continually calls Abraham his master. Keep that in mind. So then, oh, they’re just going. This is good. This is good. And-

John Bytheway:  38:29  Before I had done speaking, he repeats that part again in verse 45.

Dr. Camille Olson:  38:33  Oh, yeah. I mean, he’s got the details. This is his testimony. I know this is what’s supposed to happen. He gives verse 48. “I bow my head and worship the Lord and blessed the Lord, God of my master Abraham.” Rebecca’s family is saying, yep, this is from the Lord again. Verse 52. “He worshiped the Lord bowing himself to the earth.” Every step he’s remembering the Lord and the servant brought forth jewels of silver and jewels of gold and raiment and gave them to Rebekah. And he also went to her brother and her mother.” Again, you see, it’s the brother and the mother, the father isn’t there. It doesn’t seem. And then they’re eating and drinking and it is so good. And end of verse 54, he says, okay, send me away. Let’s go. Verse 55. Her brother and her mother said, oh, can’t he stick around 10 days.

John Bytheway:  39:31  You can stay for just a little while longer. Yeah.

Hank Smith:  39:33  I’m not ready for her to leave. I have a daughter right now who’s about ready to go to college, and I can see that. No, no, let’s not let her…

Dr. Camille Olson:  39:42  Don’t. And the servant saying, “hinder me not, seeing the Lord has prospered my way.” Let’s don’t mess this up. Let’s don’t get anything that could happen. Maybe another man could come into town and I don’t know whatever. But here’s the solution. Verse 57. Her family says… I love this. As a woman, I love this. “We will call the damsel and inquire at her mouth.” What does she think? Let her make that decision. I think we’ve already seen Rebekah likes the idea. And verse 58. “They called Rebekah and said unto her, wilt thou go with this man.” Oh, this, next words I’ve got so highlighted. She said, “I will go.” I can almost cry as I read that. My friends, my friends, my friends, I will go. We sing songs. We memorize scriptures about a young man. Not much different from Rebekah’s age that said, I will go and do the things which the Lord commanded. Nephi is a hero.

Dr. Camille Olson:  40:42  But I think about what Rebekah is saying, I will go for, and she’s not coming back. It’s not just a months trip back to get some plates. It’s dangerous, but it is giving her life, in this family, and trusting in the Lord. Okay. I’m changing the mood a little bit. I brought you a little surprise today, my friends. Because I was working with young women a few years ago when they had the theme from 1 Nephi 3:7, “I will go and do the things which Lord had commanded.: I go, I got to teach these young women.

Dr. Camille Olson:  41:17  There’s a young woman who has that example of I will go. And so I took the Liberty of writing my own lyrics to the song of Nephi’s courage. Okay. Are you ready? I’m not going to sing it, but I’ll give them to you. And Rebekah has three syllables and Nephi only has two. So you have to do a little… But you know. “The Lord commanded Rebekah to marry Sarah’s son. Trusting in a servant who far away had come. Knowing she’d never again, her home a spy, Rebecca was courageous. This was her reply. I will go, I will do the things the Lord commands. I know the Lord prepares a way. He wants me to obey…

Dr. Camille Olson:  42:02  I will go, I will do the things the Lord commands. I know the Lord prepares a way, he wants me to obey.” So I didn’t stop there. I did one for each of the books so I tried this. “An angel commanded Mary to mother God’s own son. Mary had a question, “How could this be done?” Trembling and fearful, she did not ask him why. Mary was courageous, this was her reply.” She said, “Behold, the handmaiden of the Lord. Be it unto me according to thy will.” But that is basically, “I will go, I will do the things the Lord commands. I know the Lord prepares a way, he wants me to obey.” “The Lord commanded Lehi to leave Jerusalem. Sariah was obedient and gladly followed him. She began to murmur when she feared her sons were dead. Then she was courageous and voiced her faith instead. I will go, I will do the things the Lord commands. I know the Lord prepares a way.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  42:59  Then my last verse, “The Lord commanded women to teach His Word at home. He gave to us his promise, we’ll never be alone. At times we are discouraged and ask, why should I try? Then we turn courageous and this is our reply. I will go, I will do, the things the Lord commands.” We’re all asked to do challenging things and these women can be our example. Remember General Relief Society President Mary Ellen Smoot, back in the May, 2000 Ensign, her talk that she gave at the women’s meeting just prior in April, she gave Rebekah as an example in this very setting. She was talking about telling us as women, do we ever say to ourselves, “What will I create of my life, my time, my future?” The first thing she suggested, “Go where the spirit directs. Be still and listen. Your Heavenly Father will guide you as you draw near to Him. Immerse yourselves in the holy word of the prophets, both ancient and modern and the spirit will speak to you.”

Dr. Camille Olson:  44:10  But her second point was, “Don’t be paralyzed from fear of making mistakes. Thrust your hands into the clay of your lives and begin. I love how Rebekah of old responded to Abraham’s servant who came in search of a wife for Isaac. Her answer was simple and direct. ‘I will go,’ she said.” Rebekah could have refused. She could have told the servant to wait until she had a proper sendoff, a new wardrobe. Until she’d lost a few pounds or until the weather was more promising. She could have said, ‘What’s wrong with Isaac that he can’t find a wife in all of Canaan?’ But she didn’t. She acted. And so should we. The time for procrastination is over. Begin. Don’t be afraid. Do the best you can. Of course, you will make mistakes. Everyone does. Learn from them and move forward.” I like that little quote from Sister Smoot.

Hank Smith:  45:05  That’s wonderful. I could have waited until the weather was a little … Let’s give it a month.

Dr. Camille Olson:  45:10  Yeah, lose a few pounds so I can look better in my wedding dress. Yes, okay. She’s leaving. This is sayonara.

Hank Smith:  45:18  You can miss the emotion here if you’re not careful.

John Bytheway:  45:22  It sounds like it’s for a long time, right? They may never see her again.

Dr. Camille Olson:  45:26  In fact they don’t. Rebekah’s going to send her son Jacob up there, but she doesn’t go.

John Bytheway:  45:34  A matter of, it sounds like, 24-hour period almost. How long is this when the servant of Abraham shows up and she leaves? How much time is there?

Dr. Camille Olson:  45:43  It seems like as short a period as you possibly can have to take care of his business.

John Bytheway:  45:49  Wow. Your life can change in a minute.

Hank Smith:  45:53  There’s a little bit of a Emma Smith feel to this, that she leaves Harmony and never sees her family again, right? This both feet in full dedication to God’s work.

Dr. Camille Olson:  46:08  It’s the women most frequently that are the ones asked to leave and they join the family of their husbands. And we don’t give them credit for that sacrifice often enough.

John Bytheway:  46:20  I had a question about verse 61, Rebecca arose and her damsels. She took people with her?

Dr. Camille Olson:  46:27  Yes. In fact, up in verse 59, she got to take her nurse and we’re going to run into that nurse later. She’s taking care of Rachel when Rachel gives birth. I wonder if she’s with all Jacob’s wives as they give … You wonder, so she might have gone back with him. I don’t know, but we see Deborah. Her name is Deborah. We learn her name, the nurse’s name. And so, she probably brought other people. She would’ve brought her dowry. She would’ve been sent with a lot. Those 10 camels are probably going back laden, again, coming back.

Hank Smith:  47:03  Who is this speaking in verse 60? They blessed Rebekah. Is this the people she’s leaving?

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:08  Yes, this is her brother and her mother.

Hank Smith:  47:12  Oh, this is tender.

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:12  It is. This is their greatest gift they can give. That you be this mother of thousands, of millions.

John Bytheway:  47:22  That’s a phrase you don’t see very often. Thousands of millions.

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:26  People would call that a curse too often today. But back then, that was the best blessing ever. They appreciated children.

John Bytheway:  47:34  Elder Pace down at BYU, he said that they were in a beat up station wagon, going to church with a sticker on the back that said Families are Forever, and people didn’t know if it was a boast or a complaint.

Hank Smith:  47:48  As a father of a wonderful daughter, I find verse 60 kind of tender.

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:52  It is.

Hank Smith:  47:54  Saying goodbye.

Dr. Camille Olson:  47:55  I have put the focus a lot here on Rebekah, but you are feeling it, the family behind.

John Bytheway:  48:01  There goes my little girl.

Dr. Camille Olson:  48:02  They love her and she has made contributions. Do you know how hard she works? They’re going to miss her work.

John Bytheway:  48:08  She’s always running around.

Dr. Camille Olson:  48:09  And she’s doing good. It’s an interesting thing that with Abraham willing to sacrifice Isaac, that we’ve talked about already, there’s often the parallel between Isaac and Jesus Christ. Isaac is a type of Christ. And as Isaac marries Rebekah, we know the bride of the bridegroom is symbolically the church. So I’ve oftentimes considered also looking at Rebekah and her attributes and responses to a type of us as members of the church and how we respond to our Savior when he gives us direction. That running around has new meaning to me. Be quick. Quick to respond

John Bytheway:  48:56  And running about doing good, we might say.

Dr. Camille Olson:  48:59  Yes. She’s not hesitating. She’s not hoping the command will change by the time she gets there. She’s acting.

John Bytheway:  49:06  And I suppose we could say that her willingness to say, “Well, let me take care of your camels also,” was an insight into her character. Her service orientation. I’ll do that too. Take care of your camels.

Dr. Camille Olson:  49:19  And you get a little hint about what contribution she’s going to make in the clan of Abraham, Isaac’s now. Which is where we’re coming. Well, first, verse 62, we notice where Isaac is living and you notice that well name, Lahai-roi, this is the one that Hagar named. This is the well where Hagar, when she ran off and she thought everyone had forgotten her, that the Lord sends an angel to speak and she names it, “the God who sees me.” That’s what it is. And obviously, the family has not forgotten.

Dr. Camille Olson:  49:58  That place has become important to the entire family, and we’ll see them a couple of times living there. Isaac is there meditating in the field. We always wonder what he’s meditating about. He looks up and here come the camels. Rebecca sees him afar off. Verse 65, “She had said unto the servant, ‘What man is this that walketh in the field to meet us?’ And the servant said,” notice the wording here. ” It is my master.” Now, did you notice something? Who has been his master before this? We don’t hear about Abraham. This is one of those that I have sometimes wondered if perhaps he could have died prior to this. Before Rebekah came back.

Hank Smith:  50:52  While the servant was gone.

Dr. Camille Olson:  50:54  Just glancing, while we’re right there, just go right across the column where Abraham does die. End of verse eight. This is good. This is chapter 25 now. End of verse eight, “He dies,” old age is saying it lightly, “and was gathered to his people.” That’s an interesting phrase. Does that suggest, understanding of the spirit world, and that you will be with family there?

Hank Smith:  51:19  Gathered to his people, reunited with his wife.

Dr. Camille Olson:  51:25  And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah. We can just glance by that, but I’m going to argue that Abraham never forgot or lost where Hagar and Ishmael ended up living. They were in contact and they’re here together. I’m going to stand up as Ishmael, as a covenant son. He’s not the leader of the covenant, but I’ll get there. He was circumcised. They went back and lived there with Abraham. Part of my reasoning, let’s go back and just fill in where I just skipped, chapter 25, verse one. Again, chronology, in section 132 it says, “Abraham married his wives and concubines.” Plural. She’s called a wife. “Abraham took a wife and her name was Ketura.” Here’s a third wife of Abraham and she has six sons by Abraham. His numbers are growing faster and more than we’d sometimes remember. We go through the names of those sons and then grandsons, and then you know there are daughters and granddaughters. But one of the sons that we really click into is the fourth one whose name is Midian. That becomes important, right? Why? Who’s Midian?

John Bytheway:  52:50  Jethro’s father-in-law, he’s a Midianite, right?

Dr. Camille Olson:  52:53  He’s a Midianite. Why is Jethro so important to Moses? Not just because he’s got a daughter, Zippora, that Moses marries. But what does Jethro do for Moses?

John Bytheway:  53:07  He ordained him.

Dr. Camille Olson:  53:08  He ordained him to the Melchizedek priesthood. And so, what does that tell you about Midian?

John Bytheway:  53:15  There was priesthood there.

Hank Smith:  53:17  These are covenant sons.

Dr. Camille Olson:  53:17  It’s not just Isaac. I think there’s more happening here. And this covenant, they’re blessed. Those other sons, he sends them off, but he gives them gifts for six. The sons of the concubines which Abraham had, he gave them gifts and sent them off. What I understand about this, like sons of concubines, the law didn’t require that, but he gets them something to really make a good life for them and then sends them off so that they make their own clans. But they’ve taken priesthood. Could I even suggest that? And knowledge of the covenant and knowledge of God and their worship. But he’s, verse five, Abraham gave all he had unto Isaac. Isaac is the one who’s going to succeed him in leadership and with birthright, with the bulk. This is his estate, so to speak.

John Bytheway:  54:16  Please join us for part two of this podcast.