John Bytheway: 00:00 Continue listening for part two with Dr. Aaron Franklin Doctrine and Covenants sections 49 through 50.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 00:07 Back to the specifics of Section 50 here. One other thing I really love about the Lord’s instruction is it has some correlation to what we hear in the church a lot these days, which is love, share, invite. When you approach someone love, share, invite with regards to bringing them to the gospel, I see some pattern of that in the way the Lord approaches these teachings in section 50 that you could maybe change some of the wording even though you can map them to each other. I would change it to teach reason and love with love being the most important of these. So with regards to teach and love, I think it’d be great if we start on the bookends of this revelation. First verse is sort of intro. It sets the stage there and there’s power to that.

  00:56 But we’re gonna go ahead to verse two. We’re gonna compare the first seven verses after verse one. So two through eight to the last seven verses of this revelation. I’m not suggesting the entire revelation is compartmentalized in this teach, reason and love sort of sense, but I do see some teaching with respect to the first seven and some love with respect to the last seven. So given the conditions that we talked about of addressing some of these various manifestations that were purported throughout the church, the Lord says starting in verse two, behold verily I say unto you that there are many spirits which are false spirits which have gone forth in the earth, deceiving the world and also Satan has sought, also Satan has sought to deceive you that he might overthrow you. Behold I the Lord have looked upon you and have seen abominations in the church that profess my name, but blessed are they who are faithful and endure whether in life or in death for they shall inherit eternal life but wo unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites for thus saith the Lord.

  02:03 I will bring them to judgment, verses seven and eight. Carry that out further talking about hypocrisy that is present with some of these manifestations. Now that that’s weighing heavily on us with respect to calling out some of these, we skip all the way down to those last seven verses and again just so that you can feel the contrast between these within this one revelation starting in verse 40. Behold ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now. Ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth, the light that is to be growing brighter and brighter as instructed in 24 fear not little children for you are mine and I have overcome the world and you are of them that my father have given me and none of them that my father have given me shall be lost. And the Father and I are one.

  03:00 I am in the Father and the Father in me and inasmuch as you have received me, ye are in me and I in you. Wherefore I am in your midst. This calls back that end of section 49 reminder that he is always around us. I am the good shepherd and the stone of Israel. He that buildeth upon this rock shall never fall. There’s no perfect evidence of a correct approach to addressing something that may be off that may need some additional light and truth to it than what the Lord has provided here, which is clear instruction and loving invitation, no condemnation to the individual. It’s an invitation to repent, an invitation to acknowledge where there may be something wrong and how to correct for it. There’s beauty in that that we could use a lot more of. And these little children by the way are the leaders of the church of the day. This is Joseph Smith and the other leaders. These are not the brand new converts that he’s talking to.

John Bytheway: 04:02 Yeah. Going back to verse eight, I had a note the hypocrite shall be detected and shall be cut off either in life or in death even as I will and I have in my margin, the hypocrites are not your problem. I will deal with them. That’s what seems to be what the Lord is saying. Even as I will, I’ll handle that. You repent.

Hank Smith: 04:27 I like that John.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 04:28 Where does our job begin and end, right? Yeah. He comes back to Parley’s approach. Is it to bring in the spotlight and make this huge bright showing of what is off in a way that certainly reeks of some judgmentalness and things that are less inviting? Or is it to really show, demonstrate by love that this is a truth that could aid and could brighten and provide more insight? A funny story came to mind when you were saying that John. My family, we have a one of our most oft quoted, you know how you quote things that your kids did when they were smaller and it becomes family lore. we’ve got one and we caught it on video actually. So this was a really, really great one. So my kids were eight, six, and four at the time. They loved Lucky Charms cereal. Okay. Not exactly unlike other kids, two of them couldn’t say Lucky Charms very well.

  05:18 They were having a laugh about how my 6-year-old was teasing my 4-year-old about how he said Lucky charms. And my 4-year-old says, well it’s yucky charms And my 6-year-old says, no, no it’s not yucky charms, it’s wucky charms And then my 8-year-old chimes in and says, you’re both wrong. It’s lucky charms. This active dialogue was happening when we caught this on video. They are little children. You think about that and as silly as the topic it is, can you not see that lucky charms argument happening every single day in this world, every single post of political or other commentary that it’s, you’re wrong. It’s not yucky charms, it’s wucky charms, and even the one who might chime in and maybe just maybe they actually know what it is but their intent is not often with love or with reason as we’re about to get to It’s it’s lucky charms. You’re both wrong. It gets them nowhere. It’s to your point John, it’s like you know our job is not to call out the hypocrites. God’s got this. He’ll take care of that.

Hank Smith: 06:33 Yeah, sometimes my wife will say, come to bed and I’m like, why? I can’t. There’s someone on the internet that’s wrong. I have to correct every single person online before I go to bed. The Lord says, why don’t you focus on you?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 06:48 Yeah, I love that. As we dig deeper in, so now we’ve got these bookends in place. We’ve already caught the beautiful doctrine on light that’s in the middle. Let’s build up to that in covering through what else we have in this beautiful revelation. I’d say before going into the direct verses 10 through 12 is where I’d like to land next, but we’re gonna start talking about reasoning starting in 10 and now come saith the Lord by the spirit unto the elders of his church and let us reason together. I read that a little wrong and maybe I should reread it the way that I think the language suggests what the how the Lord is saying. It says, and now come saith the Lord by the spirit unto the elders of this church and let us reason together saith the Lord by the spirit unto the elders is sort of a parenthetical.

  07:38 It’s like that’s how I’m communicating. The message here is come let us reason together that ye may understand. Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now when a man reasoneth he is understood of man because he reasoneth as a man. Even so will I the Lord reason with you that you may understand. This word, reason, it can go on a lot of branches. For me, the one that stands out is that it means we should be reasonable when we approach the Lord when we approach discovering the truth of something. Because that’s what’s at stake here. You have some worshiping in one way and some worshiping in another. What’s at stake specifically in this time is how to determine what is right, what is the true form of worship, what is the true manifestation of the Spirit?

  08:34 But it can be applied to anything with regards to how we would be reasonable in how we approach and consider things. And reason in general is being open-minded, being considerate of all factors that might be present. There’s a great talk from Elder Renlund in BYU Education week. He spoke about faith, observation and reason with regards to how we come to truth and light. It’s a brief quote that I’ll share here. He says, observation, reason and faith facilitate revelation and enable the Holy Ghost to be a reliable, trustworthy, and beloved companion. These elements will be key factors in producing spiritual momentum in our lives and helping us move forward amid fear and uncertainty. When we start with an inclination to believe, observation leads to faith. As faith grows, reason facilitates the transformation of faith into revelatory knowledge and revelatory knowledge produces added faith. There is so much beauty and succinctness to what he worded there. You could probably rewind as a listener and listen to that over and over and dig further into Elder Renlund’s comments because he really lays the groundwork for how to access truth and how to grow that truth by applying these principles of faith, observation and reason.

Hank Smith: 10:01 I really like that. I like the Lord’s end goal there in verse 12 that you may understand. Not be forced. I really want you to understand and that sounds like what Elder Renlund was saying there. This is how you can get to that point.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 10:14 I have a question for you too, and I’ve alluded to my feelings on this. Maybe this is almost rhetorical. When you consider this counsel, do you read it and think, yeah, that’s broadly relevant, that it’s not just when we’re talking about gospel related things, but broadly this counsel about how we reason with one another should be applied in all of our interactions.

John Bytheway: 10:39 I like the idea of all our interactions. If contention is of the devil, then reasoning together is how do you see it? This is how I see it. What do you think more of that approach.

Hank Smith: 10:54 In parenting. Oh, it’s such a hard lesson to learn that reasoning, moral authority and building a relationship is much more effective than I’m gonna tell you what to do. I’m going to create new rules. It’s almost the best part of being a parent. You make up new rules on the spot but it always backfires. It rarely, rarely works. John I don’t know if I’ve told you this, but I was doing the dishes one day and my daughter was over on the couch on her phone and I said, Hey, you wanna help me with the dishes? And she said, no I should have said, why don’t we have the relationship? Right? If it was her mom, she’d say yes. If it was her best friend she’d say yes. What is it about our relationship that it doesn’t work? That’s what I should have been thinking and thought, okay, how can I reason with her and become closer, build the relationship. Instead I went straight to the easy new rule. She who does not help with the dishes, doesn’t keep her phone. Do you wanna help me with the dishes? Yes, she didn’t do it with as much gusto as I had hoped. We didn’t even connect all areas of life. Let us calmly reason. Man, I wish I could learn this. I bet neither of you struggle with this

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 12:13 No, my goodness just ask my kids. No struggle at all. Yeah, the old carrot versus the stick. Yeah. Options of how to approach this. Somehow the Lord finds the balance of course and perfection that we can strive to follow. If I could pull us to a connection between this being reasonable and broad applicability, thinking back to 49:2 about only wanting to know the truth in part I would suggest that to be reasonable and to be reasoned with would require approaching whatever the topic is with an openness of consideration that cannot be offered if we are dogmatically determined to hold only to what we have. To decry anything else. I’m not suggesting anyone should ever compromise their core gospel truths, the hold of what we have with respect to that central essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ. But that is a relatively small portion of the broad nature of fact or fiction or information and misinformation.

  13:20 It’s the most important and powerful by an overwhelming majority of the saving principles of the gospel in truth. But there’s so much more out there to it. So silly analogy on this front. You think about how we approach topics in the world. We live in a time that it’s like a constant buffet of information. If you have a golden corral or Chuck-a-Rama fan, if they’re in Utah, because I think that’s a more Utah specific establishment. But either way you show up to those, no one goes there with their family so that they can go find a place to sit and then say, okay, let’s reason together. I know there’s mac and cheese and biscuits and unlimited dessert buffet but let’s go for some balance, some broccoli and salad and such. Little Johny is not going to reason with that. He came for his moments.

Hank Smith: 14:17 I could see that. Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 14:17 And it’s going to be just those things that are of most interest that are going to be sought for. It’s kinda a silly analogy but the same is sort of true with how we navigate this world. Like we are living in a buffet of available information. Some of it’s bad, more of it is good than we might often allow for. What we often see occur though is that we fill our plate with our specific go-tos and then we look over at other people’s plates and we’re like, what are you doing? Do you know where you are? They’ve got honey butter biscuits over there. Like why would you have that on your plate? Why would you go there. We immediately go to this form, the yucky charms and wucky charms and all these things and to come and reason together I think requires openness. It necessitates looking beyond our own passions and interests to see and seek to understand others. That’s hard. It’s hard to do. But so necessary.

Hank Smith: 15:18 In a world where we interact with each other online so much and can become so full of vitriol and anonymity doesn’t help. I can be anonymous and say these things and it just is a terrible spiral. John, you know this story in Luke where James and John say, Lord, let’s blow up that Samaritan village. He says, you know not what manner spirit you are of.

John Bytheway: 15:49 The goal then becomes winning an argument instead of being edified and learning.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 15:55 Yeah, this may seem like a bit of an odd tie in, but it came to mind when you said that John is, I love the quote from Roger Federer, the famous Swiss tennis player, one of the greatest of all time. He gave, I think it was like a speech at a graduation commencement. He talks about how he says, do you know how many points I won over the course of my career? And you think one of the winningest tennis players of all time, he says barely over half. He indicates that you have to be in it for the purpose of the game. It’s not, you know, every point matters and you can, you can dissect a whole lot of things in there. But the main takeaway as I think about it relevant to this is move forward the best you can. It’s not about having this mentality of victory has to happen at every point or we lose all. Having openness with regards to considering what others’ perspectives may be that differ from yours it’s not gonna cost you the game. If anything, having vitriol and having anything other than love towards our fellow man is going to cost you the game even if you have done all of these other things that we know are good and are important. There is a greatest of all commandments. There are two of them and all others hang upon them. I think this is a matter of recognizing what is the game really about. It’s those.

John Bytheway: 17:19 Stephen Covey’s seven habits is seek first to understand and then to be understood. One of the things he talks about that’s a great tool to make that happen is the talking stick. Have you heard that Hank? Only the person who is holding this talking stick can talk and they won’t give it to you until they feel they are completely understood.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 17:40 It was truly my intent and I felt like it was not gonna be a hard ask to ask that question that was mostly rhetorical of like, Hey, does this apply to our day? And then you both have shared fantastic insights and perspectives on that and the intent of that was we did all of that without actually reading these beautiful verses with regards to the spirit of truth. Now that we have had this conversation and considered it broadly, it’s worth reading these and letting it sink in. For anyone who’s listening to this, is thinking through this, hold onto something, grab whatever a recent encounter was. Maybe it’s something you observed in interaction. Maybe it was on social media, maybe it is something with respect to the gospel or beliefs. Maybe you have a friend or a loved one who has stepped away from things that they had previously held in common with you with respect to their beliefs.

  18:28 Whatever it is, wherever they stand and the situation you have, hold onto that when you think about approaching with reason and consider these verses. So if you don’t mind, I’ll read us through starting in verse 17. Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter in the spirit of truth doth he preach it by the spirit of truth or some other way? and if it be by some other way it is not of God. And again, he that receiveth the word of truth. Does he receive it by the spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way, it is not of God. Therefore why is it that you cannot understand and know that he that receiveth the word by the spirit of truth, receiveth it as it is preached or shared or commented by the spirit of truth. Wherefore he that preacheth and he that receiveth understand one another and both are edified and rejoice together and that which doth not edify is not of God and is darkness.

Hank Smith: 19:37 Why is it that this is so difficult to grasp?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 19:41 Yeah, well and do you think because it’s so much about approach, the lord’s not talking about a doctrine, that they’re not grasping of a specific belief or practice it’s approach. It’s my wife and I watching our kids have the wucky charms, yucky charms debate and we’re sitting there looking probably similar to how the Lord looks upon us in terms of like, wow, I really love them. They’re little children. I don’t understand. It doesn’t matter. He can’t say it because his speech isn’t there. He’s saying it wrong because he doesn’t understand what the word is. You see these things from that level. You realize the content doesn’t matter. It’s the approach, the approach that really is making the impact here that’s really transforming the ability to embrace the light, to allow it to grow.

Hank Smith: 20:28 This applies to every relationship, especially our most intimate relationships. It’s often your tone. It’s not an edifying tone or the way that I view you is coming across in the way I say something and then texting doesn’t help because now I’ve lost my tone. Now I can read it whatever tone I think it was said.

John Bytheway: 20:52 I have to add emojis to give tone to my voice. Yeah, I say that with a smile.

Hank Smith: 21:03 Aaron, how do we learn this skill? There’s many parents listening who think, Ugh, why do I always fall back into the same, I’m a tyrant almost trap. When I was younger I didn’t think, oh I can’t wait to be a parent so I can make people cry when they go to bed. That was not on my list of things yet there I was. In your mind, I know you’re not the perfect parent, maybe you are but how do you learn this skill? It’s almost like section 121, isn’t it? Show forth an increase of love, persuasion, gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned. That’s where influences.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 21:42 Thankfully, while I am most definitely not a perfect parent, I have been given the gift of 21 plus years of observation of one who I think is that has allowed me to get a sense of approach here. So I see my wife, I carry the stick and she has not the carrot but a balance, a carrot on a stick that is multifunctional. So I look at things and say why aren’t they understanding? Try to bring out my frustration. It’s funny that I used a bit of a finger point on Parley P. Pratt for his approach to the Shakers because that’s Aaron Franklin who rode in on that horse. Really if I think about the way I’ve approached a lot of those things in my life. But one of the things that my wife has done a remarkable job of is reasoning with our kid. Some of it I could blame on how I grew up or other mentalities, other culture which is that like no, there’s no reasoning here.

  22:38 I’m in charge. You know this is the way it is and that’s the way it’s supposed to be. And she sought to reason it was a reason without necessarily a compromise. That’s what’s interesting is that it doesn’t require you to compromise what your core truths are for you to listen, for you to make sure that that talking stick is able to be held and that they are able to really feel understood and that takes time and patience. Those are things I haven’t offered enough of. I think in those scenarios. My wife does a remarkable job of it, especially with our teenage kids. You know, I’ll hear them say something, I’ll say, no, no, that’s not the direction we’re going. And she’ll say, wait, let’s hear them out. So let’s get through this. Because oftentimes what you find, especially if someone who is learning and if they are open and not just going to the buffet for their specific go-to items, if they’re open and you use the opportunity to have them talk through it, they can guide themselves onto that path. They can bring themselves there as you allow space for them to get there.

Hank Smith: 23:45 Yeah, amazingly they use their agency, right? It’s almost as if that’s important to the Lord that they get there.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 23:54 Yeah, it’s sort of the herding effect. Like I’ve never done any cattle ranching but I’ve seen movies and I never see them go with the lasso unless it is a dire last moment need where there is a targeted rescue that is at hand, in most cases it’s by corralling them. It lets them freedom to move. They move and they run and they gather and the general prodding within that allowance gets them in the direction that they need to go. I don’t want to suggest that that should be taken too far in terms of parenting styles and whatnot. I mean there’s different paths to the sea there, but it does bring to mind how we approach something. When you see a cattle start wandering off a little bit, it’s get the lasso. That’s me lasso on that one. I can see them. They’re veering over there and not trusting in them and in the environment and approaching them in a way that shows that.

Hank Smith: 24:50 Oh John, I know that I’ve, I know all of your children and they would say our father and mother are perfect in every way. But how did you learn? How did you learn to to be calm and to work with someone gently? You laugh but I’ve seen.

John Bytheway: 25:10 I can laugh. I laugh because I, because I know something you don’t know. So we like everybody else, are learning by doing. I said this before, I don’t want to create the impression this is every night of family prayer, but there’s times when mom and dad repent in family prayer of how I handled something today and that creates an openness. The kids see hey, they’re trying too.

Hank Smith: 25:40 I think we get tired as well as parents and we’re living day to day and that can affect the way we reason together. Husband and wife, we could talk about that, how things can spiral and then become, I just have the wrong spirit about it. Do you remember John two weeks ago, I think it was when Dr. Baughman was here and she said she and her husband would have some contention between them but they decided to go to the temple once a week. Do you remember what she said? She said we would go in fighting and come out holding hands. The Lord seems to know the recipe for this.

John Bytheway: 26:16 Aaron I like how you said if they’re open to that. When I read some of these verses, I see that the listener has a responsibility. I’ve heard Hank give some excellent talks about listening. Listen to verse 19. He that receiveth the word of truth. So here’s a responsibility for the listener, doth he receive it by the spirit of truth or some other way? If it be some other way, it’s not of God. Verse 21. Therefore why is it that you cannot understand and know that he that receiveth the word, here’s a responsibility on the listener again, by the spirit of truth, receiveth it as it is preached by the spirit of truth. I understand the temptation even at church to be on your phone. I was looking up the hymn. But I love that the Lord says it’s not just about, well if this brother, if this sister gives a good talk then I’ll listen. It’s what kind of receiver are you if you listen by the spirit of truth. In fact, Hank one of my favorite analogies of this is a tuning fork. I think it was Elder McConkie back in the day who said, you’ve seen a tuning fork at one end of the room and now we’re talking about sound instead of light. But you’re an engineer, you probably work with it too. It’s a wave.

Hank Smith: 27:31 You follow this.

John Bytheway: 27:32 You smack a tuning fork and a tuning fork clear on the other side of the room will begin to vibrate and resonate because they are, what’s the phrase we use in tune? It’s possible that two people could be sitting next to each other and leave a meeting and somebody say that was a good meeting and somebody else sitting next to them could say, I didn’t get anything out of that. Somebody showed up with a B flat instead of an A. But there sounds like there’s a responsibility for the receiver to receive by the spirit of truth. President Henry B. Eyring told a story about leaving a meeting thinking these are President Eyring’s words. He said, I was sitting in sacrament meeting listening to what I thought was a terrible talk and he said I kept looking over at my father and my father was beaming at the speaker and he said, we’re walking home.

  28:24 I was kicking a rock in front of me trying to figure out how to bring this up. And I said, so dad, what did you think of sacrament meaning? And he said, my dad said, I thought it was a wonderful meeting and Elder Eyring’s like it was not. He said, my dad put his arm around me and said Hal. Now I don’t call him Hal but he’s telling the story. Hal, let me tell you something I taught myself to do when I was a young man. When I go to a a meeting and the speaker begins, if they’re having trouble, I ask myself, what is this person trying to say? And if they’re struggling then I give myself a sermon on the same subject he said and then he laughed and he said, since then I’ve never been to a bad meeting.

Hank Smith: 29:05 I’m a pretty good speaker, right?

John Bytheway: 29:09 Third Nephi 5:17. Jesus quotes some Isaiah at the end of third Nephi 16. And then it says, I perceive that you can understand. Go home, ponder upon the things which I’ve said, prepare your minds for tomorrow. We see that the listener has a responsibility. Then he that preacheth and he that receiveth understand one another and both are edified and rejoice together. I love that verse 22 of saying it’s not just, well I hope this guy’s good or I’ll be in the foyer on the couch. I’m gonna do the work necessary to receive from the Spirit something.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 29:47 I love the example and the story from President Eyring. That’s fantastic. In my book all about what is truth, I talk about something called the Rashomon effect. Rashomon effect is a cinematic effect that is used to display the differing perspectives on a singular event. It comes from an old Japanese movie called Rashomon which was about a murder that occurred and four different witnesses saw it and they each shared their perspective and these four different versions of the story and it all changes little pieces of it. We’ve seen this carried out in popular culture. I was a fan of Family Matters back in the nineties. So the Steve Urkel show, right they loved the rashomon effect. There would always be Steve Urkel sharing his version of something that happened and then the Winslow family sharing their version of something that happened this totally different view and it was the same exact thing that occurs.

  30:44 Truth isn’t relative, it didn’t change what happened, it just changes the way that it was perceived. Sometimes not even intentionally. You know, someone might have tried to say something and it was misheard and we thought they said something else. Both experienced the Rashomon effect, the one that said it thinks they communicated one thing but the reaction is so different than what they thought and the one who heard it thinks they heard one thing and it was totally different than what was intended. This Rashomon effect is something that occurs in our experience with the gospel in learning environments and the various levels of which we are prepared to receive and doing our part for that connection to occur also occurs with, it comes to somewhat questioning things that we have experienced when we hear from someone else. Because it kind of goes the other direction too.

  31:30 You know, if someone comes out of a meeting or other experience and and they’re thinking that was so powerful and someone comes to them and says, wow, that was worthless. Sort of the reverse of what that scenario, it was terrible and it suddenly it’s like maybe it was terrible. Maybe my perspective wasn’t right. There’s a lot that you can kind of unpack out of that. But I think it’s worth noting that when we reason with others and we seek for the spirit of truth, it takes both openness and awareness that we are all individuals. That the light we are gaining and growing the roots, we are growing. So you think of the light brought into the analogy of Alma 32. We planted the seed. The seed has begun growing. It didn’t have to turn into a whole tree to know it was good, it just started growing. When you think of a seed growing, it’s gonna grow custom to wherever it was planted. The roots will wrap by, they’ll go around. There are no two root systems the same in this world. So as that seed plants and grows and develops, it is going to be uniquely its own. So when it comes to that spirit of truth and finding that light, it’s individualistic. We’re given this gospel truth to embrace and what we can use it to shine on for us.

Hank Smith: 32:40 President Uchtdorf gave a talk called Continue in Patience. I thought I am gonna figure this out. So I listened to that talk every day for a month on my way to work. Just trying. Make it me.

John Bytheway: 32:56 By osmosis.

Hank Smith: 32:57 Yeah maybe something, I’ll just absorb it and it’s taken me a while.

John Bytheway: 33:02 My grandchildren are still just toddlers. It is just pure joy all the time. You know they come over. There’s a word in here that I remember my dad using the word referring to a building as an edifice. Edify, something that builds. I was at BYU one time in the old JSB and Elder Neal A. Maxwell was there. He said the coolest thing. He said, if you could compress the missionary handbook into one verse, it might be Alma 38:12. Use boldness, but not overbearance and also see that you bridle all your passions that you may be filled with love. See that you refrain from idleness. And I thought, whoa, what a cool idea. Read it as a missionary we might say, if you could compress the for the strength of youth guide into one verse, it might be verse 23, think about it as a media standard for all of us. I mean this is a pack your bags we’re going on a guilt trip type version.

  34:01 That which does not edify is not of God and is darkness. If you look in the current for the strength of youth and there’s a subtitle this time, A Guide for Making Choices. It’s not a book that makes choices for you, it’s a guide for you making choices. This is the longer paragraph. Seek that which uplifts inspires and invites the Spirit as you make choices about what to watch, read, listen to or participate in. Think about how it makes you feel. Does it invite good thoughts? Stay away from anything that mocks sacred things or that is immoral. Don’t participate in anything that dulls your judgment or sensitivity to the Spirit such as violence, alcohol and harmful drugs. Have the courage to turn off a video game, walk out of a movie or a dance, change your music or turn away from anything that is not consistent with the Spirit. We could take that and shorten it and say verse 23, does it edify? Which I just love that word. Does it build me up spiritually?

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 35:07 I love that. It reminds me, my bishop growing up when I was a teenager, he would tell us, Hey there’s a story. There’s you’re at a party and suddenly things take a turn for the worse. And maybe it’s alcohol being passed around, maybe it’s, maybe it’s marijuana. You’re in a circle and it’s being passed around that circle and you’re sitting there thinking what am I gonna do? You know what? I don’t know what I’m gonna do. And suddenly it gets to the person next to you and the person next to you says, no, no, I’m not gonna do that. That boosts your courage too. Strength in numbers. Yeah. So you’re like okay, I’m not gonna do it. And then he would ask us, are you the first person or are you the second one? The way he told the story was very much like this concern, how am I going to do this? And then it took the bolstering from another to bring it about. But we really need to recognize this simple truth. I love how you talked about condensing down all of these other things.

Hank Smith: 36:01 Elder Scott said, a memorized scripture can be like a close friend. That’s something could come to mind if I’m somewhere I ought not to be and it that which stuff not edify is not of God and is darkness. Maybe we could all be a little more scared of the dark.

John Bytheway: 36:19 Nicely put.

Hank Smith: 36:23 So Aaron, we’re back to where we started, which I love that we’ve come full circle. I’d love to ask you some more questions in just your experiences studying light. What spiritual connections have you made as you studied? Is there any moments where you went, oh that’s funny, where something you studied became well that lines up with gospel principles.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 36:44 I love that we brought it back to the, that’s funny. Yeah, that’s great. You write a whole book about light and the physical and spiritual connectivity and then it doesn’t take more than a few months after it comes out to realize, oh wow, I never even realized this new insight that someone shares or how this ties in. And I’ve missed many, many, many since then, but one in particular. So I do talk about the fact that light is the medium with which we communicate virtually all information in the modern age. So it doesn’t matter if it’s your wifi signal or your cell phone connected or a radio wave. It is all via light including transmission through optical cables that are buried under the ocean floor. All of this transmission is by packing information into light and re-extracting it. One thing I do point out is when you think about the magnitude of that takes light basically less than a 10th of a second to circle the entire equator of the earth.

  37:39 Speed of light is incredibly rapid. The amount of information that can be crammed at it is so vast it’s hard to really wrap your mind around if we can do that with light, mankind can do that, what can God do? And whether he uses light or not to make this communication happen, his capabilities are beyond our imagination. The part to answer your more specific question of what occurred to me even more recently that I’ve learned about this is the way I think about how God communicates. That I like thinking about it as light. I still had I’d say traditional maybe for lack of a better word, understanding of when I want to hear God more, when the hear him campaign happened. When I wanna hear him more, I need to right myself more to him. I need to pray more. I need to align better with His gospel and be more receptive.

  38:28 None of those things will hurt in preparation to receive. I’ve come to convince myself that that was wrong way of thinking about it. God is always speaking. Nothing we can do can change his love for us. There is no variance there. There is only our reception, to John’s point. That is all that’s within our control is how we will manage our reception to his truth. They will always come. It’s less about me trying to do what I can to get him to call or to speak in any way and entirely about how I can listen. There’s an old talk that I ran into from Elder Bruce R. McConkie where he talks about serving as a mission president in Australia going up to visit this TV broadcasting station, being fascinated by it because he’s like, oh wow, these are transmitting it via light through these satellites down to the village below and they’re picking it up and watching and he’s like, that night I went back home and with my boys was watching the TV station that was from the tower and he says it brought to his memory that this is how God works.

  39:35 The revelations of eternity are constantly before us. They are always available and it is simply a matter of whether we tune into them. Just like the fact that each one of us right now is surrounded by information we’re not picking up. It’s people’s cell phone conversations, it’s wifi data transmitted. It’s all going around and through us right now. Just because we aren’t picking it up doesn’t mean it’s not there. Same is with the truths of eternity. The opportunity bringing us back to section 50, the brighter and brighter till the perfect day. What else could that perfect day be besides preparing ourselves to be so familiar with Christ and his light that we will see him as he is when he returns because of our likeness. But also it’s the perfect day of comprehending all things. D&C 88:67 has that language. If your eye is single to God, the whole bodies will be filled with light and you will comprehend all things.

  40:36 I asked earlier in this section to what were you ordained. It answers a few different things but one of them included in that is down in verse 29. And if you are purified and cleansed from all sin, you shall ask whatsoever ye will in the name of Jesus and it shall be done. This calls to mind Nephi the son of Helaman. It’s a promise that comes with understanding comprehension. You come to comprehend and see so much. Your room from getting the light shined in your eyes to now having it coming from within you is so bright that your awareness of the things in front of you are enough for you to have earned that level of trust that you will not ask amiss because your awareness is grown to that level. I think that’s where God intends all of us to get. And it helped me with reframing the way I think about communication with God. It comes to those other conversations we talked about like I had with the teenager recently about whether God was speaking to, it’s like so easy for me now because I’m like, no, no he is, he is. Because that’s the God that we have.

Hank Smith: 41:39 I’m fascinated by this. I wish you could stay for hours with us here where we can talk about being, I just quipped earlier, being scared of the dark. The light can be so calming, right? Like oh good, I’m, I’m okay. When my boys were younger, they didn’t like to go in if the basement was dark. And I would say it’s the same place you went to two hours ago when the lights were on. Well it’s dark now. Fear and darkness seem to go together.

John Bytheway: 42:13 It limits your perception. It’s illuminating. That is exactly the right word. All of a sudden you have more information about the world that you’re in when you can see and when you can’t see, you’re limited to maybe one of your senses, a couple of them I guess. But we even used the phrase and then the lights went on or the cartoon has a light bulb over our head to say Bing, I just got an idea. Lehi is in a dark and dreary wilderness for many hours and then he prays and when he opened his eyes he beheld. It sounds to me like the Lord turned the lights on.

Hank Smith: 42:51 Yeah. He saw. Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 42:55 I think that’s right. I think we fear what we don’t understand. When light isn’t there to illuminate and provide comprehension, that’s one of the most beautiful points of connectivity between light and truth. The connectivity is through comprehension is that you can now see. And so now you understand and more than that it’s, it’s a comprehension that’s akin to the people of King Benjamin. What is it? That was the sign of their conversion. Why did they know the seed was good? It wasn’t because they saw an angel. It wasn’t some other major manifestation is because their outlook, the way they saw the world was transformed. The disposition. They had no more disposition to evils. When we change the way we see things because we’ve embraced truth that is light illuminating the world, the path in front of us. And that’s a sign that it’s good that that has happened.

John Bytheway: 43:47 There’s a phrase in there I’m sure you saw, which is so strange when you have tasted this light, you can taste light because his whole metaphor is fruit and tasting, but it’s more than that. It’s light. You’re tasting light reminds me of Elder Uchtdorf commenting on being 30,000 feet above the earth and he saw the terminator, which is from that vantage point where part of the earth is dark and part of it’s light. And he said this comment that sounds so obvious, but it was so good when you think about it. He said, I realized night is nothing more than a shadow. The light has always been there. It’s just you aren’t in a place to receive it. To your point, Aaron light’s always there, but we might put ourselves in a shadow. I thought, oh what a great way to put it.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 44:39 Yeah, I like that. So much else that has to do with the physical attributes of light and the way it interacts with things can bring a lot of appreciation for our capabilities to receive things from the Lord’s light. Like we talked earlier about the directionality of light, that it has a direction to it and yet Christ is the light that fills the immensity of space. He is in all places D&C 88. So that just tells you how intentional his direction is. It’s everywhere. It’s not just that. Oh okay, um, here’s this source and it’s gonna go everywhere. So you’re all good. There’s direction. It’s the section 49 in your rearward and all around you and Section 50 reiterated that he is coming from all directions. There is no hiding that you know there’s no way that you can put yourself in a position that he cannot access with his love and offer you the chance to embrace it and illuminate things to enhance your own understanding.

Hank Smith: 45:39 I sometimes use this sequence, I hope I’m right here and I would love to hear what both of you think. I’ll speak to young people and say God gives you a portion of light so you can see some truth. If you live that truth, you get more light. With that light, you see more truth. And if you live that truth you get more light. And with that light you see more truth and it keeps going and keeps going until you have all light and all truth. And the opposite seems to be also true, that if I have light and I see truth and I don’t live according to that truth, I lose that light. And I actually no longer can see the truth. Like I’ve lost what I once knew. Section 93 is a wonderful little sister chapter to 50, this is verse 28, continuing.

  46:28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Then skip down to 36, the glory of God is intelligence or in other words, light and truth. Light and truth. Verse 37, forsake the evil one 39. The wicked one comes and takes away light and truth through disobedience. And then he talks about verse 40, bring up your children in light and truth. Do you see that play out at all? It seems like I do that those who I’ve seen once who have been bathed in the light of the restoration and then turn away from it. They have good hearts. That’s not what this is about. But they seem to not remember things that they were that they once knew.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 47:17 Yeah, I most definitely have seen that played out and think it is a reality of what happens when we stop believing the things we know. A scale of knowing something. John, you have a book on how do we know if we know? I think that is the title of it and I have a chapter in this new book. How do I know if I know I make point to your excellent work on that.

John Bytheway: 47:39 Oh thanks!

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 47:39 There’s almost like a scale to it. There’s things you don’t know that you don’t know and then you know you don’t know. And then you might know that you know because you learned it and then you might not know that you know or not believe that you know. And everything can be kind of slid around between these with these quadrants when it comes to this light and truth.

  48:04 Because light is a knowledge of things, is an understanding of truth. Things that they really are as they really were as they are to come. This calls to mind a similar phrasing that exists in the Book of Alma that talks about this except it makes that connection to the fact that light or having light is to have knowledge, is to know something, to know things, the mysteries of God. All things in Alma 12 verses 10 and 11 it says, and therefore he that will harden his heart. The same receiveth again to John’s comments about receiving. So here’s a hard heart. So receiveth the lesser portion of the word and he that will not harden his heart to him is given the greater portion of the word until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full, the perfect day brighter and brighter, perfect day. And then verse 11. And they that will harden their hearts to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries. And then they are taken captive by the devil and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. So the chains of hell being the representation of us losing that light of no longer knowing things concerning the mysteries of God, understanding his ways, his love, his will for us.

John Bytheway: 49:28 We know we can increase in knowledge, but it sounds like we can also somehow decrease in knowledge when we lose light. Maybe this doesn’t apply, but Sister Sheri Dew wrote a chapter in a book called Sin Makes You Stupid and it Costs a Lot Too. And I think what she was trying to say was, when you lose the influence of the Holy Ghost, you’re not as smart. I mean you have access to infinite intelligence. Imagine that when we don’t, I guess we can make not as good decisions because we’re losing light.

Hank Smith: 49:59 Yeah. It’s an interesting interaction with light and dark, which we see around us all the time, but also apparently is happening in our spirits, in our mind.

John Bytheway: 50:09 I can’t wait to see your book because this has always been a topic that has fascinated me too.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 50:15 You’ll have to endure some very engineering diagrams and ways of thinking.

John Bytheway: 50:20 I love it.

Hank Smith: 50:22 I had a friend do an interesting lesson in his seminary classroom. I don’t know exactly how he did it, but he started the class with a single lamp on and as they kept studying he would turn on more light and he would ask the students, is it light in here? Yeah. Then he could turn on another light. Is it light in here? Yeah. What was interesting is that it could always get brighter. You would think, oh, I’ve got the light. And then it would get brighter and no, no, I’ve got the light. And it would get brighter. And it was fascinating to me to think sometimes we think, oh I’ve got it. I’ve got the light like I can see around me and then another light comes on, you think, I guess I didn’t have it all. I didn’t have all that light.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 51:08 It reminds me of Joseph saying he was seeking a more perfect understanding when he was going after this revelation. Right, section 49 where it said that, I mean that yeah, he had a lot of light. So much light and revelation and yet awareness that there’s always more that he could understand and seek for.

Hank Smith: 51:24 Wow, that’s great. Aaron, this has been really fun. John and I both love to talk about light and truth. We rarely get to do it with someone who actually understands it. So this has been when two ignorant people get together, not much happens.

John Bytheway: 51:41 It’s called followHIM. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 51:45 Aaron there may be a narrative out there for some Latter-day Saints that educated people are not faithful religious people. If you get to the point where you know enough, you then

John Bytheway: 51:58 Really know stuff.

Hank Smith: 51:59 Yeah. Then you don’t need religion. Yet here is someone who has had some serious education. We don’t worship at the feet of academia, but it is something that you go, wow, there’s a lot that goes into that one. How are you received out there in North Carolina? Have you ever received a, you know so much, how can you still believe this? Or has it been the opposite where people admire you for this? And what would you say to those listeners at home who are getting that message from somewhere that, oh, if you only knew what I knew. And then finally, I’m just giving you a bunch to talk about here, what are your feelings for the restoration, for the prophet Joseph Smith and of course the Lord that leads him.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 52:44 Wow, so much there. Hank, I appreciate the multi-layered question. I will say that I have had such a marvelous reception overall with respect to the broad community that I have the blessing of being a part of at Duke University. I think there’s so much that is not understood about the environment of some of these higher education institutions. Lots of assumptions about what might be there or not. I’ve had such great conversations come out of doing things like publishing my first book on the spiritual physics of light. This isn’t my day job. I don’t work on those things directly there, but it’s something I’m passionate about. It’s been wonderful to have colleagues and students who have approached me to discuss these things. I obviously don’t teach a class at Duke about this. There’s more respect than I think folks often give room for in the broader academic world and also in the scientific community that I’ve had many of my close colleagues across different universities across the world who find out about this book.

  53:52 You know, like, wait a minute, you wrote this, this book. We’re publishing research articles. What are you writing this book about? They’ve shown great respect with respect to that and interest and so it’s sparked a lot of really great conversations. So I’d say maybe an answer that I’d have to, that is of course you’re gonna have some outliers, but the assumptions that people have are a little more pegged to the outlier than they are to the reality or the norm. We live in a world of really passionate and incredible people that exist both in the, you know, academic enterprise and at any other vocational or cultural living place or environment that you can find. And there’s certainly nothing special about one who may have spent more of their time doing one thing versus another. They just happen to know more about the one thing than maybe they do of the other.

  54:42 In all fields, in all areas. Whether they receive accolades and recognitions of the world or not, wo unto the learned who think they are wise, that’s a dark place that is accessible to anyone regardless of the level of learning. Sometimes those who point the fingers the most adamantly at the academically learned as being in that camp are pointing the finger from the camp because it’s a place that all of us have the potential to fall to. If we don’t use reason, if we don’t have openness to all truth, not just part of it. I think I’ve been blessed to be in an environment of people that have really demonstrated that regardless of what their backgrounds are, to your question about my feelings, about the Restoration, about the magnificent truths that we have been blessed with through it. There’s a verse that I’ll read that came from this very Restoration to me.

  55:39 I told you I like looking back at some of the oldest versions of documents. A little fun fact for you and for when you both come and visit me at Duke University. I’ll take you to the Duke University rare books and manuscript library, which houses not one but two original 1830 editions of the Book of Mormon. They had them through various means that they came into their collection. We can reserve a reading room and they bring them out and allow you to handle them and, and look through these original versions. Just being able to turn to verses like the one I’m about to read. This is where the power of the Restoration is. To me it’s of course it lives in the sacred grove and the magnificent manifestations that came from that. Of course, it’s through the gift and power of God, the translation of the Book of Mormon and all the revelations that came through like we talked about today.

  56:28 It’s most acutely in the small and simple truths that were brought back through all of that, through simple means. So this is my closing thought of my testimony here is Mosiah 4:9 believe in God, believe that he is and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth. Believe that he has all wisdom and all power, both in heaven and in earth. Believe that man does not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. If we can hold on to that one truth about recognition of where we stand and where God stands in this relationship, his love, his constancy, that will get us through things so much better than the bickering and the finger pointing, all of the light shining in others’ eyes instead of inviting and loving. I’m grateful for the restoration that it has brought me to the Savior. It literally did as a convert to this church and finding the power of these truths that have brought me the kind of realization of life and our purpose, light and truth that I just don’t know I would’ve accessed any other way.

Hank Smith: 57:46 Aaron, that just fantastic. Isaiah 55, the Lord says, as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways than your ways. He knoweth all things. John, how many times have I said this to you? I don’t know how in the world the two of us get the opportunity to sit with people like Dr. Franklin and just learn.

John Bytheway: 58:11 What a blessing. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 58:12 Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 58:13 Thank you both for the work you do. It’s so great.

Hank Smith: 58:16 Thank you. Hey, wherever you’re listening from, we would love to show Dr. Franklin so you can come onto YouTube or you can come to our website, follow him.co. We have our show notes there and you can just shoot us a message and let us know where you’re listening from. It’s a joy to share that with our guests, to show them where their voice was. I think we’ve received emails from Japan to India to Ukraine. It’s a joy to hear from you. We want to thank Dr. Aaron Franklin for being with us today. What a day. Full of light.

John Bytheway: 58:48 Enlightening.

Hank Smith: 58:49 Yeah, it was very enlightening. Thanks John. And illuminating.

Dr. Aaron Franklin: 58:54 Light puns are always welcome.

Hank Smith: 58:55 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 58:55 Lots of lumens.

Hank Smith: 58:57 Always. Yeah. If you know a light pun, please come share it with us. We’ll send it to Dr. Franklin. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re gonna continue on through the Doctrine and Covenants on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. FollowHIM.co. That’s followHIM.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, and Annabelle Sorensen.