John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:00:07 Whenever the Lord talks about, like verse 45, “I … will avenge thee of thine enemy an hundred-fold; And Upon his children, and upon his children’s children, of all them that hate me, unto the third and fourth generation.” Some people might step back and say, “Well, now wait a sec. We’re told that we’re responsible for our own sins and not for the sins of our parents.” But as I pondered on that, I thought, is it just that natural consequence of if I’m a bitter, angry person and that’s what I teach my children, that’s the lifestyle that they will grow up with? Unless they choose to be a transition figure or a [inaudible 00:00:38] and to step away from that. I had a mission companion that is in that category when she chose to live a better life.

Hank Smith: 00:00:45 But I think you’re right. The natural result of this kind of behavior is that it’s going to be passed down to children. I think Elder Holland said, “Can take something that their parents do that they flirt with and turn it into a full-blown romance.”

John Bytheway: 00:01:03 Yeah. That talk was called “A Prayer for the Children.” I loved that. He said, “Parents shouldn’t be surprised if flirting with cynicism, their children turn that into full-blown romance.”

Hank Smith: 00:01:15 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:01:16 Yeah. Great statement.

Hank Smith: 00:01:17 Yeah. The idea is that… I think you’re right. I think that’s the natural consequence, Sherilyn, rather than the Lord saying, “I’m going to punish the great grandchildren of these people.” I think he’s saying that there’s going to be a natural flow down through the family tree unless someone stops it.

John Bytheway: 00:01:33 Okay. We’ll look at Section 99. This is about John Murdock and this is the same John Murdoch, isn’t it, whose wife gave birth to twins and then his wife died in giving them birth. And these twins were those that were raised by Joseph and Emma.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:01:54 Yeah. And that’s a common story that we hear, but as you look at John Murdock’s life, it’s even more poignant because that’s just the first wife that he loses. He remarries in, I believe, it’s 1836 and his wife dies in 1837. He remarries in 1838 and his wife passes away in 1845. And then he marries again. So not only does he lose them, but as we probably alluded to on earlier podcasts, one of the twins that Joseph and Emma adopt, the little boy, Joseph, he passes away. John Murdochk is given a promise. I believe, and a blessing that when he goes up to Zion in 1834 with Zion’s Camp, that his children will be safe and that they were. They were healthy. But shortly thereafter, his little girl, Phoebe passes away. I believe it’s Phoebe. So he loses a lot of family members.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:02:47 He’s a seeker. If you look at his biography, I love the biographies on Joseph Smith Papers and Making Sense [of the Doctrine and Covenants]. Steve [Harper] quotes him as saying, “The Spirit of the Lord rested upon me witnessing to me of the truth.” As he read the Book of Mormon. He wanted to have the Spirit teach them where to find truth. And he, unlike most people of his day, essentially gives his life to full-time preaching. He’s willing to just move forward and to give his life to preaching full-time.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:03:17 So D&C 99 is a mission call. Well, let’s start looking at some of the verses. It’s a mission call, but it also is instructions for him how to balance his responsibilities as a father and as a preacher and minister of the gospel. In verses two to four, I think there’s some great insights here as people hear about the gospel, as we hear about the gospel, as we are presented with revelation, we have two options, right? Receive or reject. In verse two, “Who receiveth you receiveth me; and you shall have power to declare my word in the demonstration of my Holy Spirit.” Which imagine how comforting that is to John Murdock as he sought the Holy Spirit for years to be promised that you’ll have the Holy Spirit with you. And verse three, “Who receiveth you as a little child, receiveth my kingdom; and blessed are they, for they shall obtain mercy.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:04:07 This revelation, we should note it’s chronologically out of order in the Doctrine and Covenants. It’s actually given a year before all these events we’re talking about. So we’re looking at August 1832. So it’s just around Section 83, between section 83 and 84 chronologically. And in verse four, “Who rejecteth you shall be rejected of my Father and his house.” So I love that that contrast, right? It reminds me to step back and say, “Okay, am I receiving the Lord’s word? Am I rejecting the Lord’s word? Am I being slothful?”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:04:37 It makes me think of a little story of three devils applying for a job. And the first little devil, he goes into the interview and he’s like, “Oh, I will be a good devil because I will tell people none of this gospel stuff is true–none of this Christianity is true.” And the second little devil goes and he says, “I’m going to tell people it’s half true.” And the third little devil goes in and he says, “I’m going to tell people it’s all true, but it can wait. It’s not important. You don’t have to do it now. The gospel, change, Christ, that can all wait. It’s true, but it can wait.” Since I heard that story probably 20 years ago, it stuck with me because it’s that concept of am I receiving or rejecting? And if I’m not acting on it, is that a tacit rejection by not moving forward?

John Bytheway: 00:05:17 I like that. I’ve heard something similar like… Well, “I’m no devil. There is none.” So there’s no need to repent. There’s no heaven. There’s no hell. But I’ve heard it. There’s no hurry. Another way you put it. It can wait. There’s no hurry. A procrastination plug. I saw a bumper sticker that said “Procrastinate later.” I thought that was a good one.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:05:45 That’s a good one.

Hank Smith: 00:05:47 I just crastinated, right? And then I went pro.

John Bytheway: 00:05:50 Yeah, I’ve gone pro. Who was an amateur? How many missions did he [John Murdock] fill then?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:05:58 He fills several missions in the introduction. Thank you to the Joseph Smith Papers writes for this. They talk about how all the people that he baptizes on his mission. So Murdock spends time traveling and baptizing about 70 people in four months in Ohio. This is shortly following his baptism, I believe. And then in early 1831, he decides to devote himself full time to the ministry. In June 1831, he’s called to go to Missouri preaching. By the way, that’s shortly after his wife has just died. And then the rest of 1831, the first half of 1832, he’s preaching in Michigan territory, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio. He comes back and then we’re in June 1832. He’s called to go again. He finds out his little boy Joseph has died and then instructs him to resume his preaching, this time going to the Eastern United States.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:06:44 But I think it’s interesting, right? In verse six, it says, “That it is not expedient that you should go until your children are provided for, and sends up kindly into the bishop of Zion. I think you mentioned, John, you’ve been a bishop and, Hank, maybe you as well. I don’t know if anyone ever sent their children to you to take care of, but it’s kind of an unusual charge for the bishop. And I think it’s partly right. He’s a single dad in that culture. It wasn’t so common for a man if his wife passed away to just raise his children alone. He would either find relatives to help or remarry as soon as possible. So when John went on his mission in ’31, his wife had already passed away. So he had his three older children, Joseph and Emma have the twins. The three older children are staying with other people. But when he comes back from his mission, the people that took care of those three kids demand payment, they’re like, “Okay, I took care of your kid on your mission. Now you need to pay me back for taking care of your child.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:07:33 So perhaps because of this, the Lord tells him, “Okay, send your children up to Bishop Partridge in Zion.” So he makes arrangements for his children, pays a man named Caleb Baldwin to take his three oldest children who are Orris, John, and Phoebe to Missouri. And then they live with various Church members, Phoebe living with Sidney Gilbert, who has the store there and is the uncle of Mary Rollins Lightner and Caroline, who are the ones that saved the pages. So that’s kind of an interesting side note there that I think is in many ways, reassuring that the Lord is telling John again, “I see you, I see that you’re a single father, and let’s make sure that your children are taken care of. Let’s make sure that you know that they’re safe. And then I’m going to call you to go. But take care of your children first.”

John Bytheway: 00:08:21 I really like that because so many times we hear stories about, “Hey, I’m calling you on a mission. Sorry you have 12 kids and your wife is sick and they’re all sick. Say goodbye and go on a mission.” Things have changed. We don’t do it that way, but I love that how it says in the Proclamation to the World on the Family, that fathers are to provide and here he’s making sure your children are provided for. I like that word there. So it’s not reckless to just go, but make sure that they’re provided for, then go.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:08:56 Yes. Agreed. And I think it’s interesting his offer. It says in verse seven, “After a few years, if thou desires of me, thou mayest go up into the goodly land, to possess thine inheritance; Otherwise thou shall continue proclaiming my gospel until thou be taken.” You can go to Zion. You can keep preaching. Kind of like what the Lord offers Peter and John. It’s like, do you want to stay in preach? Do you want to be taken up?

John Bytheway: 00:09:15 Yeah. 

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:09:16 They both make good choices, both want to serve the Lord.

John Bytheway: 00:09:20 That’s a good parallel. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:09:21 Yeah. I think if I were to ask for revelation, John, it might just be verse eight. Continue proclaiming the gospel until you’re done, until you’re taken.

John Bytheway: 00:09:31 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:09:31 Right? That’s what I want you to do. Just keep teaching the gospel until you die.

John Bytheway: 00:09:37 That’s what we’re all supposed to do. We’re supposed to be doing the work of salvation and gathering Israel until we’re taken. And I think taken means what, Hank? What does it mean, “Until you’re taken?”

Hank Smith: 00:09:48 Yeah. I think until the Lord’s like, “Until I bring you home.”

John Bytheway: 00:09:51 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:09:53 Yep. When does he go? When does he pass away? Do we know?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:09:57 He dies in Beaver, Utah in 1871 just before Christmas. So he definitely goes West. He’s in the Camp of Israel, but yeah, lives, what’s that? 40 more years. 39 more years after this revelation. And these are more missions. He continued to go on missions. He went to Australia. Yeah. Lots of different missions.

John Bytheway: 00:10:19 Oh, wow. Imagine that. We’re at Section 100. What’s the context here?

Hank Smith: 00:10:25 Yeah. We’ve hit the triple digits, John.

John Bytheway: 00:10:28 We did it. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:10:29 We need to have a moment for all the listeners who’ve listened to every episode and have a moment of silence for them. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:10:36 This is the century mark.

Hank Smith: 00:10:38 Yeah. And Sherilyn, almost-Dr. Sherilyn Farnes is with us. This is a blessed moment.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:10:46 I feel honored to be here. I am enjoying visiting with both of you. So thank you.

John Bytheway: 00:10:49 It’s like when the odometer turns in your car and it’s kind of like you want to pull over and take a picture.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:10:55 I thought you were supposed to get a milkshake. When it turns to zeros, all zeros, you get a milkshake. That was my family.

John Bytheway: 00:11:00 I like your idea better.

Hank Smith: 00:11:01 Oh, I missed that rule. Well, it works retroactively too. So, I’ll meet you there.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:11:06 Go up and make for all the ones that you missed your whole life.

Hank Smith: 00:11:10 Yeah. I like it when in the section heading something unexpected comes up and all of a sudden they’re back in New York. You’re going, “Wait. I thought we left New York.” So what are they doing back in New York?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:11:21 Yes. So Joseph and Sidney Rigdon are on a mission from October to November, but I have to read you these first few lines. There’s a great app that I love called Scripture Plus from Book of Mormon Central and Steve Harper wrote a bunch of introductory like contexts. They have cross references. They have little articles about it. They tell you who the people are. They show you pictures of where it was. There’s videos. And Casey Griffiths also is writing commentaries for them. Those are also great. But I love Steve’s opening lines here. He says of Section 100, “The adulterous apostate Doctor Philastus Hurlbut threatened to wash his hands in Joseph Smith’s blood. Besides that, the Saints in Missouri were in the midst of being forced from the promised land. On the bright side, missionary work around the Great Lakes was thriving.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:12:07 So you have kind of this contrast of, “Hey, there’s a lot of terrible going on.” But around the Great Lakes, kind of the area where Niagara Falls is—Toronto. Buffalo has been historically this great successful area for Church members. So Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon were requested to travel there by some recent converts, which I love this theme of early Church History. People hear about the gospel and then either they themselves say, “I’m going to go tell my family,” or they say, “Hey, can you send someone on a mission here? I can’t go right now, but someone’s going in that direction. Would you stop by and see this relative of mine?” So they go travel to preach in this area in Northwestern Pennsylvania, Southwestern New York, and a portion of upper Canada, which is the part of Canada that’s just above Lake Ontario. So, like Toronto area.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:12:53 So about a week after they leave, Joseph Smith writes in his diary, he feels called to go on this mission. He says, “I feel very well in my mind the Lord is with us, but have much anxiety about my family.” So that’s kind of the background. The setup for Section 100 is that they’re on a mission, but they’re worried about their families. I love, again, kind of this theme that we keep talking about, that the Lord not only says, “I see you,” but, “I see your family and I’m taking care of them and they’re okay.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:13:23 I remember I had a big conflict with somewhere several years ago. It was a breakup. I was dating this fellow. And I remember after we broke up, just praying for comfort for myself, praying for comfort for him. And I still remember where I was standing on BYU campus when I had the very distinct impression, the Lord saying, “I’m aware of him and I’m watching over him as well.” I think it’s really comforting to see this revelation that not only does the Lord care about us, but he cares about our family. In verse one, “Thus sayeth the Lord unto you, my friends Sidney and Joseph, your families are well. They are in mine hands and I will do with them as seemeth me good; for in me, there is all power.” And I just love that, that reassurance. And then continues to say, “Okay, and now let’s talk about your mission. I have many people in this place. The region’s roundabout. An effectual door shall be opened in the region’s roundabout. Lift up your voices.” Verse five, “Speak the thoughts I shall put into your hearts.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:14:17 I love that theme in scripture, right? Speak the thoughts I will put into your hearts all over the Book of Mormon. “The thoughts that are in your hearts. Speak those thoughts, and you should not be confounded before men, for it shall be given you. …” In the Doctrine and Covenants too. “It shall be given you in the very hour and the very moment what you shall say.” Kind of like Nephi. He’s, “Led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand the things which I should do.” Just move forward. And it’s kind of like Ether 1:42, right? With the brother of Jared. He gathers all the people.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:14:48 I just imagine this conversation. The Lord says, “Go to this valley, which is northward and there will I meet thee.” I believe is the exact phrase. And I imagine the people asking the brother of Jared, “Okay, so we’re going to go here. Where are we going to go next?” And he says, “Well, I don’t know actually. I just know we need to go this far and there, the Lord’s going to meet us.” Which is referred to back in 98. I can’t remember if we mentioned it, but it’s talking about, I will give you… In verse 12, “He will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; I will try you improve you herewith.” If we do what the Lord asks us to do and we move forward, we get more.

Hank Smith: 00:15:23 I just feel like we have a lot of missionaries who listen to our podcast and I can see them really, really having a moment with Section 100, right? They worry about their families. They’re worried about where they are, right? The Lord says, “I have caused you to come to this place.” John’s daughter was supposed to serve in Tahiti, but she’s in Tucson right now. And I think the Lord would say, “I wanted you in this place. I will speak the thoughts I put in your heart.” So I just think this is a wonderful missionary section where even missionaries today can read this and get the same comfort that Joseph and Sidney got.

John Bytheway: 00:16:13 Yeah. I think sometimes we want to have everything figured out that we’re going to do a day or two beforehand. And there’s a little bit of a test of faith here. I’ll tell you in the very moment what you need to say and do. And that idea is repeated, as Sherilyn said, in other places in scripture too, but just be where you’re supposed to be and I will treasure up the word. Yeah, you do that. But then the Lord can draw out of you what he needs you to say in the moment.

Hank Smith: 00:16:42 I don’t think this is the Lord saying don’t prepare.

John Bytheway: 00:16:46 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:16:46 Don’t prepare anything.

John Bytheway: 00:16:48 Yeah. He’s saying treasure up the words and then I’ll bring them out when you need them.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:16:54 I’ll bring all things to your remembrance, right? If you studied it ahead of time, right? And it kind of refers to that. Well, in verse nine where he says, “Sidney will be a spokesman unto this people.” And I love that the Lord knows us in our individual gifts. So Sydney, you’re going to be a spokesman. “I will ordain you into this calling unto my servant Joseph. And I will give unto him power to be mighty and testimony. I will give unto thee power to be mighty and expounding all scriptures … that he shall be a revelator onto thee.” So here you each have roles, your complimentary roles, you’re helping each other. I need both of you, right? There’s a reason that we’re sent out on fulltime missions and companionships that you can help and build each other up.

Hank Smith: 00:17:31 I like that because I think a companionship can be listening going, “This person’s nothing like me.” Right? “Why are we companions?” And the Lord would say, “That’s why. That’s why. You have your different roles and together you’re going to complement one another.” I think that’s great. You can almost see this with any companionship.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:17:52 Yeah. And I think there’s this concept, right? And that’s how we build Zion. It’s not because it’s handed to us and the Lord drops us in the middle of perfect people and says, “Here’s Zion. Go for it.” But the Lord says,

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:18:03 “You’re going to build Zion.” And verse 16, when He says, “I will raise up unto myself a pure people, that will serve me in righteousness.” That hearkens back in my mind, at least to D&C 97, just before where we started, 97:21, where it says, “Zion is the pure in heart,” or Moses 7:18, “They dwelt together in righteousness.” And then verse 17 reminds me of, well, let me read it. “And all that call upon the name of the Lord and keep his commandments shall be saved.” It makes me think of D&C 93:1 that says, “Come to pass … to those that calleth on my name,” and several other things, “And keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” And that part of building Zion is creating the environment that we can have a Zion-like people live where the Lord can come and dwell or like Moses, right before that verse in Moses that talked about what Zion is. It says, “The Lord came and dwelt with his people and they dwelt in righteousness.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:19:01 And we might walk into a situation. This what the early Saints did in Jackson County. They walked there and they said, “This is Zion? These rough people?” And sometimes people said, “Oh, this is one of the greatest lands?” And do we ever do that? We go into a ward, we go into a mission companionship, we go into a calling, we go into a work situation and we say a family situation. You say, “This is Zion? This is what you’re giving me to work with? What? This is not what I wanted.” But that’s how we build Zion is by saying, okay, by being humble, which I think one of you referenced earlier and saying, “What can I do?” Not, “What is everybody else doing?” But, “What can I do to build Zion?”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:19:35 And I think in D&C 97:21, that which I just referenced, “This is Zion, the pure in heart.” I think it’s interesting because some of the definitions of Zion and this pure people, it says, “There were no poor among them.” I believe that’s Moses 7:18. In the 1828 dictionary, the fourth definition of the word poor, yes, I read the 1828 dictionary when I’m trying to understand the scriptures better. The fourth definition of the word poor is “destitute of value, worth or importance.” And I thought about that in the connection with people and is part of building Zion having no poor among us, as in not treating anyone as if they were worthless or destitute of value, which ties in, which I didn’t think about until right now, and remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God, that to God, we are worth everything. [inaudible]  that talks about worthiness is not worth, that regardless of what we’re done, we are still worth everything to the Lord.

Hank Smith: 00:20:37 I was thinking about Section 100 and that Joseph is worried about his family, and I thought, well, isn’t every missionary worried about the family? But I can see Joseph being particularly worried because the threats against him are much greater than the threats against other missionaries. So I can see him thinking, “Oh, I’m leaving my family unprotected,” and the Lord saying, “Your families are well.” It’s not just a, “Hey, your family’s doing good,” to a missionary. It’s, “They’re okay. They’re okay. They’re safe.”

John Bytheway: 00:21:10 Tell us again how long this mission was that Joseph’s and Sidney were on to Perrysburg, New York.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:21:16 This one is only from October 5th to November 4th. So just about a month was all, but it was a good mission. They baptized 12 people after about a week or so, and then two more on October 28th. And then they left and arrived home. And later on, one of the people in the branch said that they had 34 members by the end of the year. So I believe he’s with Sidney Rigdon on this mission. So just the two of them.

John Bytheway: 00:21:45 But were there other missions, something we could call missions that he went on and proselyting like he did on this one?

Hank Smith: 00:21:52 I don’t think so. He makes what? Three trips to Missouri, Sherilyn, during his time? And then the fourth one where he lives there?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:22:01 Yeah. It’s definitely not the norm for Joseph to be called, oh now, go here and preach and go here and preach, et cetera, et cetera. One thing that I love about this is the Lord doesn’t say, “Why are you worrying about this? Stop worrying about it, get back to your mission.” But He validates his feelings and hHe just gives him a comforting answer, that it’s okay to care about your families. So D&C 101, which I believe has 101 verses. So this is December, 1833. And this bookends what we started with. In D&C 98, we were talking about the persecutions of the Saints in Jackson County in July.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:22:37 By December, 1833, there’s been part two of the major events of persecution. And the saints have been driven from Jackson County–tensions escalated. They had agreed to leave the county, but then thought government would intervene and save them. That did not happen. They start petitioning the Governor and they want to try and stay. In fact in August, Joseph, as we mentioned earlier, counseled the Missouri Saints to not sell one foot of land in Jackson County, stating that God would speedily deliver Zion, but tensions escalate. And at the end of October, beginning of November, the Saints are forcibly driven from the county. There’s bloodshed. This is the first time that Saints are killed, one Saint and then two of the mob are killed. And they drive them. And Joseph Smith receives letters talking about this violence.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:23:31 I wanted to just touch on one thing of the background. So the Saints, basically are living in their settlements and to paint the picture, we often picture, oh, the Saints are in Jackson County, they’re all close together. They’re spread out across 12 miles. There’s no cell phones, there’s no communication. And so a lot of what happens is due to miscommunication between the mob and between the Saints, which happens in any war, regardless of the communication styles. But also the Saints aren’t able to help each other the way they would like, because they are scattered. There’s no place where they can gather and all be together. So they cluster. And so Edward Partridge’s home, it’s half-mile west of Independence. A lot of times the Saints in there would gather there. And then the Whitmer Settlement, et cetera, they would gather. The mobs start coming around. They start ripping off roofs. They start beating some of the men. So the men would gather together thinking the women and children are safe, but then the mobs start attacking the homes where the women and children are. And so they realized we’ve got to just keep everybody safe together.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:24:37 One of the humorous, not humorous stories from this time period is the Saints hear something going on in Independence. They hear word of it. And so some of the group that’s at Partridge’s home comes into town. They found a number of men in the act of stoning the store of Gilbert and Whitney. The store is broken. Some of the goods are in the street. I think one account, I didn’t recently reread, it says there’s ribbons or cloth all over the street. Although people attacking the store flee, but one man named Richard McCarty, who “was taken and found to be well-aligned with whiskey,” they take them to the magistrate and say, “Can we get a warrant for his arrest?” They refused to give them one.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:25:16 But jumping ahead a few days later, Sidney Gilbert, Isaac Morley, John Corrill, and William McClellin were taken for assault and battery. So essentially they catch the man in the act of robbing the store and they can’t get a warrant for him to be arrested, but he can get a warrant. Partridge phrases it, he says, “Although they could not get a warrant for him for breaking the store, yet he had obtained one for them for catching him at it.” So just the irony of the judges of saying, ‘I’m not going to give you a warrant. Oh sure. You would like one because they caught you? Yes, I will grant you one.”

Hank Smith: 00:25:51 I hope Harry Truman, one of the future judges in Independence rolled over in his, I guess he wasn’t alive yet, rolled over in the premortal world saying, “That is wrong. That is just, … oh! I cannot. That makes me mad.” I’ll just be quiet.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:26:13 No, no. We chuckle because it’s so absurd, but imagine the frustration if you’re there and it’s happening to you. Phenomenally. And so what happens a lot is a group of Saints will maybe gather together to go protect someone. And then the mob, someone from the mob’s like, “Oh, a group of Mormons are coming to attack us.” So they gather people and then they go at each other, when really they’re second guessing each other’s movements a lot, but it does tragically lead to three people dying. Philo Dibble is also wounded, pretty severely. He’s got a great story. We won’t go into it here, but he’s healed. And he continues to live. These men that are on trial for catching Richard McCartney are in the courthouse when news comes and it’s grossly exaggerated. “Oh, 20 people have been killed. They’ve killed Moses Wilson’s son!” And so the people around the courthouse then think we’re going to kill these men right here. We have them. But to protect them, the officials there put them in the jail to save them.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:27:12 In the middle of the night, they’re taken out to go meet with the other Saints, to have a little council. And they say, “What should we do?” And they agree. They say, “Things have gone too far. We’re going to agree to leave the county. We’ll leave Jackson County.” The northern boundary of Jackson County is the Missouri River. Let’s go north across the river into Clay County. So the men that were in the jail returned back to the jail with the sheriff, but some mob members are waiting for them there and shoot at them. Two of them run away. I think it’s Morley and Corrill run away as they’re being shot at. Gilbert actually stands his ground, Sidney Gilbert, which is very impressive. Two guns are fired at him. Neither of them actually hit him. One flashes in the pan and then he’s knocked down, but he’s not actually injured. And so he gets back into the jail and then early the next morning, it’s kind of like, “Okay, we brought you back to jail. Now we’ll release you.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:28:05 And so there’s just all this confusion and people are scared and they once they decide to leave, then there’s even confusion among that. And there’s one party of women and children that start fleeing the county on their own. The men are off making arrangements and they just say, “It’s not safe. We can’t even stay here any longer.” And they just go and they wander for a few days. And there’s an account of the ground being so rough that the children’s feet are tender. And then they’re bleeding from the stubble on the ground. In fact, Partridge, when they’re camped on the southern edge of the Missouri River, waiting to go across the Missouri River, he says, “There was a cry of husbands looking for their wives, and wives, looking for their husbands, or children needing to be reunited with their families.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:28:54 So in addition to fleeing your home, you’re also wondering, “Is my family okay? Where’s the rest of my family?” Or, “I’m okay, my immediate family’s fine, but are my neighbors okay?” Maybe she was pregnant? She was about to give birth. “Is she okay? What’s going on with everybody that I care about?” So just a lot of really hard and really poignant things going on. So that’s the beginning of November, 1833.

Hank Smith: 00:29:17 I want everybody who is listening, make sure they understand that this isn’t being driven from Missouri. I remember when I was younger, I thought, oh, this is when we were driven from Missouri. That’s not going to happen until the winter of 1838 and the winter of 1839. This is the winter of 1833 and ’34, when we’re not driven from the state, but from the county. I think maybe we need to clarify for some who are going wait, I thought, is this where Emma carries the pages and things like that? No, no. That’s not going to happen for another six years.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:29:54 Yeah. Good clarification. Thanks for mentioning that. One last thing on the context, I think it’s helpful to remember the Saints couldn’t see the end from the beginning. They didn’t know it was coming. And so Partridge is writing letters. Other Church members are writing letters to Joseph Smith in Kirtland, “Hey, this is what’s going on?” This is what’s happening. Partridge says, “We are in hopes that we shall be able to return to our houses and lands before a great while. But how this is to be accomplished is all in the dark to us as yet.” And Joseph Smith has counseled them to keep their lands in Missouri. So Partridge has this tension of, “We just agreed to leave, but I think it’s going to save lives.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:30:29 On December 5th, 1833, Joseph Smith writes a letter to Partridge. Joseph himself is trying to understand the Lord’s will. He’s trying to understand why is this happening? Joseph is a prophet. He’s no less than a prophet, but he’s no more than a man. He’s not omniscient. He doesn’t know why everything’s happening. And so on December 5th, he writes to Edward Partridge telling him that if initial reports that Church members had surrendered and were evacuating were incorrect, then he says, “Maintain the ground as long as there is a man left, since it’s the place appointed of the Lord for your inheritance. But you can go to Clay County. If you’re already on your way to Clay County, it can be a temporary refuge. It will be no harm to go there.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:31:06 And then later in December, Joseph Smith receives this revelation that I feel it gives him some clarity and gives the saints some clarity of why is this happening? Not all questions are answered, but why is this happening? And let’s jump into this with one final thing. Ira Ames is a Church member living in Kirtland, and he goes to Joseph Smith’s house in Kirtland with Martin Harris early one December morning and finds Joseph and Oliver Cowdery at breakfast. And apparently according to Ames, Cowdery greeted the two by saying, “Good morning, brethren. We have just received news from heaven.” And so you get this sense of, “Yep, this is a revelation.”

Hank Smith: 00:31:42 Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:31:43 “We’ve just received news from heaven.” That’s fantastic.

Hank Smith: 00:31:47 I know, I loved, I read that in the Making Sense [of the Doctrine and Covenants] book. It’s like the newscaster, “This just in. We just got this from heaven.” Pretty matter of fact.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:32:01 Let’s jump into this. Oh, and as we’re doing it, I think one thing also to remember, not only is Joseph Smith concerned, but people’s family members, Edward Partridge’s brother writes him a letter in October. “I’ve heard crazy reports. Let me know if you’re okay. I want to know what’s happening.” So there’s a lot of people that are concerned. So in D&C 101, the Lord helps Joseph Smith and the Saints and others understand why this is happening.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:32:27 And it says, verse one, “Verily I say unto you concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance–I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted ,in consequence of their transgressions.” So one, they haven’t lived up to the covenants, to the instructions that they’ve been given. And I say that, which we’ll come back and talk about that. Not to criticize, because I’m certainly not one to point fingers. It says verse three, “Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.” Verse four, “Therefore they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son. For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny, me cannot be sanctified.” And verse six, which Elder Christofferson quotes in his “Come To Zion” talk from a few years ago. He says, “Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore, by these things they polluted their inheritances.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:33:26 So I think we’ve got a few things going on. We have the Lord saying, “You’ve got some transgressions, so that’s a consequence.” And I think more broadly afflictions come because of our transgressions, sometimes because of other people’s transgressions, and sometimes because we need to be tested and tried like Abraham. Sometimes because we just live in a fallen world, but Elder Christofferson talked about this and I love the way he put it. He compared their society with ours. And he says, “Rather than judge these early Saints too harshly, however, we should look to ourselves to see if we are doing any better. Zion is Zion because of the character attributes and faithfulness of her citizens. Much of the work to be done in establishing Zion consists in our individual efforts to become the pure in heart. Says, Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the Celestial Kingdom. ‘Otherwise, I cannot receive her unto myself’ (D&C 105:5).”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:34:17 And then he juxtaposes this verse with our day. Elder Christofferson says the Savior was critical of some of the early Saints, not all, but at least some of the early Saints for their lustful desires. These were people who lived in a non-television, non-film, non-internet non-iPod world, in a world now awash in sexualized images and music. Are we free from lustful desires and their attendant evils? Far from pushing the limits of modest dress or indulging in the vicarious immorality of pornography, we are to hunger and thirst after righteousness. To come to Zion, it is not enough for you or me to be somewhat less wicked than others. We are to become not only good, but holy men and women. And then he says, recalling Elder Neal A. Maxwell’s phrase, “Let us once and for all establish our residence in Zion and give up the summer cottage in Babylon.”

John Bytheway: 00:35:03 So what’s the reference of that Elder Christofferson talk again?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:35:07 Yes. So it is from “Come to Zion.” It’s October, 2008. Elder Christofferson, he often talks about Zion. That’s one of his themes that I love, I love hearing.

John Bytheway: 00:35:16 That’s great stuff. I mean to think about their world and what they had. And then you see that list of things in verse eight and then think about our world. Holy cow.

Hank Smith: 00:35:29 Jarrings, contentions, envying, strifes, lustful and covetous desires. I think he just described our culture.

John Bytheway: 00:35:39 Yeah, 2021.

Hank Smith: 00:35:39 2021. And this thing, and notice what the Lord calls them. They’ll pollute your life. Those things will pollute your life. You’ll pollute the blessings that I have for you. I like how you said this, Sherilyn, we can’t point fingers at these saints. We can’t judge anyone, but this does… I think if they were-

Hank Smith: 00:36:03 Yeah, but we can’t judge anyone. But I think if they were to see our day, they’d say, “Ooh, I think Section 101 is for you actually.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:36:10 They probably would. They’d say, “We had nothing on you all.” We say that lightheartedly, what we were just joking about there, but in truth, I love that there’s sections in the Doctrine and Covenants, and all the scriptures, that we can all relate to them in different ways, right? Sometimes we say, “Oh, well, my ancestors were part of this pioneer group, or they were in Nauvoo. Maybe we’re biologically sealed to these family members.” But then some people in the world today are refugees, and they can relate to the Saints in a much different way than I can relate to them, because they can say, “I know what it’s like to be a refugee,” like President Uchtdorf. Some people can say, “Hey, I’m not a refugee, but I’ve been subjected to physical violence. I’ve had someone break into my home. I know what it’s like.” So I think all of these ways that we relate to the early Saints are important, and they’re all equally valid.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:36:58 Some people are persecuted for their religious beliefs, and yet in many ways the Lord has messages in this for each of us, including jumping into verse eight and nine. So in verse eight, I think in many ways most, or all of us can relate to this. “In the day of their peace they esteemed lightly my counsel; but, in the day of their trouble, of necessity they feel after me.” How many of us, when things are going well, we’re comfortable, and I even love that phrasing there, “They feel after me.” It’s not just, “They start to listen to me,” or, “They read my words,” that’s part of feeling after him, but it’s a soul-deep hunger, a spiritual yearning. Later on, I believe it’s in this section, it talks about the soul and caring for the life of the soul, that the soul senses there’s something that we need here.

Hank Smith: 00:37:45 I automatically thought of Helaman 12 when Mormon gets so frustrated with human beings and he almost throws down his pen. He stops the entire story and he says, “Oh, you’re so foolish.” This is Helaman 12:4. “How foolish, how vain, how evil, devilish, how quick to do inequity, and how slow to do good are the children of men.” He says, “Except the Lord visits the people with death, terror, and famine-

John Bytheway: 00:38:14 “And with terror.”

Hank Smith: 00:38:15 Yeah. “And with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.” He says, “Why is it in the very moment that God blesses you, He does all these things, you harden your hearts and forget the Lord your God, and trample under their feet…” He’s saying under our feet… ” The Holy One?  “This is because of prosperity.” It’s almost this similar thing. I like the Lord’s tone here. He says, “I love you. You have a lot of problems, but I love you.”

Hank Smith: 00:38:44 Sherilyn, I think there’s going to be some listeners who say, “Oh, that’s why all these bad things are happening to me because I need to be chastened.” We’re not saying that any trial that someone goes through is because the Lord is trying to… that there’s something wrong. I think that’s an important thing, because some things happen, like you said, because we live in a fallen world, or because of other people’s choices, but there can be difficulties that come. I wonder if the Lord is saying “You did a pretty impressive job of creating your own difficulties. I just allowed you, I was hands off, and you did a lot of this to yourselves, with your difficulties, with your choices.”

John Bytheway: 00:39:29 On the official manuals, right at the top of 154, it says, “Some of our afflictions in life are caused by our own choices. Others are caused by the choices of others. And sometimes no one is to blame. Bad things just happen. Regardless of the cause, adversity can help fulfill divine purposes.” So I’m glad you’re bringing that up again, because when we honestly look, we can see, yeah, I probably cause a lot of my own problems. But we’re not saying that’s true in every case, right.

Hank Smith: 00:39:57 I love that the Lord’s tone here is, ” I love you, I haven’t forgotten you, and yes, this is going to hurt a little bit.”

John Bytheway: 00:40:04 I love verse nine. “My bowels are filled with compassion towards them.” So it’s not like, “I’m so tired of you people,” it’s, “You’re going through all this, but I’m filled with compassion.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:40:18 I love the concept of… jumping back up to verse five briefly… “All those who will not enter chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.” It made me step back and ask myself, okay, what does it mean to endure chastening? Just grit your teeth and, okay, I’ll get through this? Or does it mean without denying Christ? Does it mean accepting Christ? Does it mean following Him, taking his name upon me? What does it mean to endure chastening? I feel like there’s a President Eyring talk about enduring well. I’m not putting my finger on it right now, but it’s not just enduring to the end, but enduring well, and it’s building Zion as we go.

Hank Smith: 00:40:59 There’s that verse right in Section 121, “If thou endure it well.”

John Bytheway: 00:41:03 Right. Not just endure it, but in 123, “Let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power.” I got to be cheerful, too? Ugh.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:41:18 Oh, you are. Aren’t you the cheerful co-host, right? Wasn’t that the adjective from today?

Hank Smith: 00:41:21 He is the cheerful co-host.

John Bytheway: 00:41:23 I know. Hank was just reminding me of that verse when he said that.

Hank Smith: 00:41:26 Yeah, please be cheerful.

John Bytheway: 00:41:27 Would you be cheerful today?

Hank Smith: 00:41:28 You should see him when he’s ornery. It’s not very fun.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:41:31 When I was younger, a teenager, I used to think my mom is a very cheerful person, and I thought, oh, well, when you become a parent, that’s from heaven. It’s just bestowed upon you, you don’t have to try to be cheerful. And as you get older, you realize, oh, she actually puts effort into being cheerful. I mean, I think she has a naturally cheery disposition, but she also makes a lot of effort to remain cheerful.

Hank Smith: 00:41:50 Right.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:41:52 I think one of the things I was thinking about with D&C 101 is verse seven, when it says, “They were slow to harken unto the voice of the Lord their God,” and it made me ask myself, okay, am I slow, and what is slow? Am I judging these people as slow when perhaps I’m slow? Made me maybe question myself.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:42:11 A few cross-references for D&C 101:8. So verse eight, when it talks about, “They feel after me,” I started looking at a few other verses. It made me think of Hosea 5:15, where it says, “They seek my face in their affliction. They will seek me early,” or Acts 17:27, “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.” Then Alma 32:6. I think this is the cross-reference below; “Their afflictions had truly humbled them, and they were in a preparation to hear the word.” So, are we willing to hear? Are we open to?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:42:49 Maybe it doesn’t apply right here, but I was thinking about this when we were talking about something a few minutes earlier, of being willing to be chastened. I have a little niece that’s 10, and she was deciding which club soccer team to join, and she picked the one with the coach who was going to be harder on her. She said, “Yeah, I’m going to go with him because I know he’s going to push me, and therefore I’ll get better, and I want to get better.” I love that example. Here’s this little 10-year-old, and she says, “I want to get better. And it’s going to be harder, but I’m going to get better.” I know that’s what the Lord asks. That’s all he asks, right?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:43:17 I think in one of your earlier ones, you were talking with Steve Harper about repenting relentlessly. We just have to keep trying. We just have to keep trying. When I did my student teaching, Eighth Grade US history, several years ago, I taught here in Utah, and there was one class that I had some difficulty with. It was the end of the day, it was the last class. I finally told my students, I was like, “Look, we’ve got to change something. This is not working. I care about you. There’s something I like about every single one of you.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:43:45 Immediately, the kid who was by far the worst in the entire class, his hand shot up and he said, “Ms. Farnes, what do you like about me?” I could honestly say, “I like that you’re trying,” because I could tell. He’d be working on something and he’d start to goof off, or get distracted. He’d look up, he’d catch my eye, and it wasn’t that sense of, “Oh, I got caught,” but it was like, “Oh, you know what? You see me, and you know I can do better. I’m going to try a little bit harder to focus.” I love that, and I’ve thought about that ever since. I like that you’re trying, that the Lord says that to us. “I like that you’re trying. It’s okay you messed up, but you’re trying.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:16 One thing that I’ll mention that I’ve heard from Alex Baugh, is that they had not started the temple. The Lord had commanded them to start the temple, and they still hadn’t. Joseph’s going to start the temple in Kirtland eventually, but that’s an important thing the Lord wanted done, and he said, “They esteemed lightly my counsel.”

John Bytheway: 00:44:38 I think in previous podcasts, Hank, we’ve talked about that. The Lord really is anxious to give them the blessings of the temple.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:44:46 It makes me think of, in the book of Mormon, is it Limhi, where Ammon comes and says, “Hey, we’re here. We have a message of deliverance. Your brethren in Jerusalem are still alive. We’re here to help you,” and Limhi, what does he say to his people? “Okay, let’s come to the temple. Meet at the temple tomorrow. You’re going to find out how to be delivered. It’s still going to be hard. I trust there remaineth an effectual struggle to be made, but meet at the temple, and we’ll learn how to be delivered.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:45:10 So we have the parable of a nobleman that has a spot of land. He says to his servants, “Okay, I want you to go here and plant 12 olive trees. Set watchmen, build a tower, and then put a watchman on the tower so that my olive trees are safe.” Then they start building the foundation thereof, and they start to say among themselves, verse 47, “What need hath my Lord of this tower? And  consulted for a long time, saying among themselves: What need hath my lord of this tower, seeing this is a time of peace? Might not this money be given to the exchangers? For there is no need of these things.” Then verse 50, “While they were at variance one with another, they became very slothful.” Isn’t that us? We start to bicker about small things, and we get slothful in what we’re supposed to do, that particular commandment, or bigger commandments.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:45:53 It says, “And they hearkened not unto the commandments of their Lord.” Of course, we know what happens. The enemy comes by night, breaks down the hedge, servants of the nobleman arose, they were affrighted, in verse 50. They flee, the enemy destroys their works and breaks down the olive trees. The nobleman says to his vineyard, “Why! What is the cause of this great evil? Ought ye not to have done even as I commanded you, and–after ye had planted the vineyard, and built the hedge round about, and set watchmen upon the walls thereof–and built the tower also, and set a watchman upon the tower, and watch for my vineyard, and not have fallen asleep, lest the enemy should come upon you? And behold, the watchman upon the tower would have seen the enemy when he was yet afar off; and then ye could have made ready and kept the enemy from breaking down the hedge thereof, and saved my vineyard from the hands of the destroyer.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:46:36 A few sections later, the Lord identifies Joseph Smith as the servant that he speaks to, and then calls upon him to do exactly what verse 55 says. “Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants who are the strength of mine house, save those only who I have appointed to tarry.” Then, they’re going to go to the vineyard and redeem the vineyard, and the Lord says, “For it is mine; I have bought it with money.”

Hank Smith: 00:47:03 That is Zion’s Camp, right?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:47:06 Yes. At least that’s my interpretation. I believe that’s the general interpretation that they’re speaking of Zion’s Camp, or what they called at the time, the Camp of Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:47:14 I often find things pretty funny, and I think this would be interesting to read this being someone who was involved, going, “Oh yeah, I did do that. I did say that.” The Lord is, “Let me tell you a story. There once was these people. Does this sound familiar at all?” And they said, “Well, we don’t need to do that.” I think there was this one moment in the New Testament where it says, and the Pharisees… What is it? “The Pharisees saw that he spake of them…”

John Bytheway: 00:47:47 “They perceived that He spake about them.” It’s like, oh, now you’re getting it.

Hank Smith: 00:47:53 He’s like, “Wait. This sounds familiar.”

John Bytheway: 00:47:55 “Is he talking about… Hey, wait a minute.”

Hank Smith: 00:48:01 “He’s talking about us.” I always say to my students, “There’s Bobby the Pharisee over there, “I think he’s talking about us.” Yeah, we know Bobby. We know.” There’s got to be this moment where the Saints are reading this letter going, “Uh-oh. That was me.”

John Bytheway: 00:48:15 In fact, there’s a name for that. I heard Victor Ludlow talk about Entrapment Parables…

Hank Smith: 00:48:21 Yeah, an Entrapment Parable.

John Bytheway: 00:48:23 … where it’s like, Isaiah’s, “What more could I have done for my vineyard?” “I don’t know, I can’t think of a thing.” And then it’s like, “Okay, you guys are the ones.” Then what’s the other one? Nathan comes in to David, right-

Hank Smith: 00:48:40 Nathan, yeah. Nathan and David. The Savior uses Entrapment Parables. In verse 52, I like that the Lord is using a parable here, because it’s a, “I’m not going to go right at you, I’m just going to tell this story over here and let you see it from my perspective.” Because in verse 52, “Why? Why?” I think the Lord would say that to us, too, when we decide, “Oh, your way, I’m not going to go your way.” He’d say, “Let me tell you a story about a guy who didn’t listen to his boss. And the boss said, “Why? I wanted the best for you.”

John Bytheway: 00:49:18 I like 47 and 48, when they’re trying to use their own reasoning. “Well, I don’t really see why he needs this. This is a time of peace, we don’t need a tower,” and not seeing that there is a greater purpose that they don’t know about, that the nobleman has.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:49:37 It would be like people saying, “Why do we need Come, Follow Me? We go to church every Sunday. People can get enough at church. Why do we need to do ministry? Home teaching, visiting teaching, that’s good enough for us. Let’s just do that.” Then looking back, post pandemic, or as we’re getting towards the end and things are starting to open back up and become more normal. I’m so grateful that the prophets and apostles listened to that revelation, and didn’t say, ” That’s a great idea. Let’s do that in five or 10 years.” But we’re prepared. But yeah, I definitely see myself in this parable. I’ve done [crosstalk 00:50:07].

John Bytheway: 00:50:09 Think about what is the Gospel? What is the Restored Gospel as we understand it? Now take away the temple. Take away everything we learned in the temple, and you can see why the Lord is so anxious to give them that, because it’s hard for me to imagine what is the Restored Gospel without the temple? And what happens there, and the promises there, and isn’t that the meaning of the tower eventually? He told you to build a temple.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:50:37 The Lord doesn’t explicitly interpret it, but that’s the general understanding-

John Bytheway: 00:50:41 Sure sounds like it.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:50:41 … and it makes sense that it’s the temple that he says, “We need that temple,” which I think ties back into what we were talking about at the very beginning of this episode, 98:16, when he says, “Renounce war and proclaim peace, and seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, the hearts of the fathers to the children,” that it comes back to proclaim peace, and peace is found as we seal families and make covenants in the temple. So thank you, both of you, for tying it back to the temple, which it should be.

Hank Smith: 00:51:09 Sherilyn, it seems to me that in 57, 58 and 59, the Lord gives them a little bit of foreshadowing about Zion’s Camp not being successful in what they thought they were supposed to do. Because he says, “I’m going to enter the land with a remnant, a residue,” he says, “Of mine own house,” and the servant says, “Well, when?” And the Lord says, “When I will. Now go and do what I’ve asked you to do.” So when Zion’s Camp get to Missouri, I hate to throw in a spoiler, they actually don’t redeem Zion. The Lord stops them and says, “This is as far as I wanted you to come,” and it seems that there’s a little bit of a foreshadowing there in 56 through 60.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:51:53 Aha, maybe so. I hadn’t thought about it in that sense. Definitely in verse 60, he doesn’t promise any specific timetable, because there is, like you point out. The people going with the Camp of Israel, or Zion’s Camp, they’re ready to fight, they’re prepared, and they’re saying, “We’re going here. We’re going to get it back. The governor’s going to help us, and we’re going to stay here for a year to help the saints build Jackson County back up.” Which doesn’t happen.

Hank Smith: 00:52:18 He just throws out verse 62. “After many days all things were fulfilled.” Doesn’t make a promise there. I think that’s important to point out. That’s a fun parable.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:52:30 Yeah, and I love that you hit on timing. The Lord’s timing is often different from our timing. It makes me think of Elder Holland’s quote, “Some blessings come soon, some come late, and some don’t come till heaven. But for those who keep the gospel of Jesus Christ, they come.” The Lord’s ways of doing things can be different than ours, but it doesn’t mean that he’s not going to fulfill all of the promises. It might not be in the way we think might, it not be when we think, but it will be fulfilled.

Hank Smith: 00:52:56 Yeah, and I know many of them are disappointed in how Zion’s Camp turns out, but the Lord has a different purpose for it. I’m sure we’ll talk about that later.

John Bytheway: 00:53:07 For those who might be, “Wait, what’s Zion’s Camp? What?” The idea of redeeming Zion, when we think of redeem, we think of the Savior, the Redeemer, but in this case, redeeming Zion meant to go take it back, and that’s what they expected to do as Zion’s Camp, go fight and take it back.

Hank Smith: 00:53:24 They were going to escort the people back onto their lands.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:53:28 Thank you for clarifying that, because we definitely use it differently in our day. I mean, we talk about Zion differently. It’s not a place, but it’s more of the condition of our hearts, a stake of Zion.

John Bytheway: 00:53:36 I’m going to go redeem my back yard, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:53:41 Sherilyn, Section 101 is pretty long. Are there any other verses you’d like to highlight?

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:53:46 Yeah. There were a few others that jumped out to me. In verses 67 to 68, I know I keep tying it back to Partridge, but I’ve studied his life the most. But the Lord says, in verse 67, “Therefore, a commandment I give unto all the churches,” to continue to gather, specifically-

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:54:03 to the places He’s appointed. And then 68, “Nevertheless, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, let not your gathering be in haste nor by flight; but let all things be prepared before you.” And that was one of the struggles with Zion. A lot of the Saints were so eager to just go to Zion, that starting from when the Saints first moved there in July of 1831, some Saints came when they really shouldn’t have been coming.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:54:26 And so much so that a year later, in summer of June 1832 Partridge writes a letter to the Saints and says, “Okay, just a reminder, this is how we’re supposed to come to Zion. You’re supposed to get a recommend from your Bishop. You’re only supposed to come up if you’re invited and you’re welcome to come. We can’t support everybody just pouring in, especially without resources.” And so I see in this a little bit of a reminder, and I can see Partridge going, “Yes, thank you for reminding them how it’s supposed to be.” Do not do what you’re not supposed to do.

Hank Smith: 00:54:53 Yeah. The Lord was specific. Don’t go unless you’ve been called to go, but some just went. They decided they wanted to go, so they just went. And it really, it made things hard for Bishop Partridge. It made things hard for, to establish Zion, right? Because he can’t buy the land he needs if he’s feeding people who can’t feed themselves.

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:55:15 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. He’ll be spending all his time-

Hank Smith: 00:55:17 What’s he going to do, right? What’s he going to do when they show up? Just, “Well, I can’t feed, you.” No, he’s going to… That would be so frustrating, I can… To be Bishop Partridge saying… And I liked that you said that he’s like, “Yes! This is what we said two years ago.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:55:34 I imagine he might have been… “That’s what I told you to do.” Verse 78, where it says, “Every man may act according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment,” right? They are consecrating property and sharing and helping each other, but you’re still responsible for your own actions. You’re responsible for your own stewardship. And that made me think of Elder Christofferson’s talk from October 2014, “Free Forever to Act For Themselves.” When he quotes from Henry V, and talking about the king coming about the camp. And they’re debating whose fault is it if the king goes to war and it’s not a just war, and quoting and saying, “Every subject’s duty is the king’s/but every subject’s soul is his own.”

Sherilyn Farnes: 00:56:19 That we’re each responsible for our own soul, which kind of ties back into verses 37 and 38, which says care for the soul and for the life of the soul, which we could go off a long time about that. What does it mean to care for your soul, for the life of your soul? And then verse 38, what does it mean in patience you may possess your souls, and you shall have eternal life? How does patience tie into possessing your souls? But I think the last, they continued to importune for redress in verses 85 to 95, they turned to judges and governors and President. And verse 76 as well, they try and get redress. They don’t get a lot, but they continued to try.

Hank Smith: 00:57:01 Oh, that’d be… I just can’t imagine the frustration of this. I’ve taken people back to these places and described these stories, and people get so… even today, as you hear the story, you just get so frustrated with the legal system out in Missouri. That someone can be driven off of their own property, and sent away, and never paid for that property, never have it recovered. It’s just, you’re driven out of it, and if you set foot back in the county, we’re going to hurt you, perhaps kill you. And this is the United States of America. It’s so frustrating. And they do get to the president, right? Eventually they get to Martin van Buren.

John Bytheway: 00:57:49 And, yeah, the famous, “Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. If I were to take up for you, I would lose the vote of Missouri,” that famous story. I love verses 32 through 36. There’s, do you have questions about dinosaurs? Do you have questions about the age of the earth? Do you have questions about how the earth was made? And the Lord has all of these answers, but he is not often a God of explanations. And so I love these verses, and Hank, you know that a pivotal experience in my life was going to speak to the young men and women at Columbine High School after that horrific school shooting. And tossing and turning in bed, and what in the world do I say, and do the scriptures really have the answers, or don’t they? And I put together this talk, and this was scripture five of “Five Scriptures That Will Help You Get Through Almost Anything.”

John Bytheway: 00:58:51 And I put almost, because I thought, “The Savior gets us through everything without an almost, but these scriptures help.” And this was the last one, verse 32. “I say unto you, in that day, when the Lord shall come, He shall reveal all things.” And what do I always love to say when I see the word all, Hank?

Hank Smith: 00:59:09 “That’s a high percentage word.”

John Bytheway: 00:59:10 Is that a high percentage? I’m going to tell you everything, right? And look, think of what you can stick under this heading. Things which have passed. That’s archeology, that’s anthropology, that’s astronomy.

Hank Smith: 00:59:25 History, right.

John Bytheway: 00:59:25 “Things which have passed. Hidden things, which no man knew. Things of the earth by which it was made, and the purpose in the end thereof.” In one of Stephen Covey’s books he talks about Albert Einstein being asked, “If you could ask God anything, what would you ask him?” And Albert Einstein said, “Well, I’d ask him how he made the universe.” And then he changed his mind and said, “No, wait. I would ask him why he created the universe, because then I would know the meaning of my life.” And recently, I found that Stephen Hawking in our day said that, “Science may one day be able to tell us how the universe was created, but it won’t be able to tell us, why does the universe bother to exist?”

Hank Smith: 01:00:07 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:00:08 And we have beautiful answers here in the gospel. Anyway, “Things of the earth by which it was made, the purpose in the end thereof. Things most precious, things that are above, things that are beneath. Things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.” And verse 36, really stuck out to me in that circumstance. “Wherefore fear not even unto death, for in this world, your joy is not full, but in me, your joy is full.” And so those verses, for anyone that has questions, evolution, dinosaurs, anthropology, whatever, the Lord’s saying, “I will tell you everything. Hidden things, which nobody knows right now. I will tell you everything.” And it’s a move forward in faith. It’s “abide in my covenant.” It’s a continuing God type of a little section right there that I’ve always loved.

Hank Smith: 01:00:59 Yeah. That is really good. I remember calling you when I got asked to speak at the youth conference for those students who went to Marjorie Stoneman Douglas, and I said, “You’ve done this. Tell me what to do.” And you said, “You won’t sleep very well.” Right? You won’t sleep very well when this… before it.

John Bytheway: 01:01:17 Yeah, it was… well, it was pivotal, because it taught me do the scriptures have the answers or don’t they? And they do. We don’t know why. And so instead I focused on, but what do we know for sure? And that was one of those. This is, here’s some things that we do know, from a source where the answers don’t change. From the words of the Lord. So I’ve always loved those verses. Thanks for letting me talk about those for a minute.

Hank Smith: 01:01:47 I really like those, that your questions will get answered. Be patient, they will get answered.

John Bytheway: 01:01:53 Yeah. So, abide in my covenant. Continue in God.

Hank Smith: 01:01:57 Sherilyn, I bet as a historian, there’s plenty of questions you would like answered.

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:02:01 Definitely. Definitely. That’s one thing I thought about when I read over that verse, I was like, “I’m going to find out what happened there, and there, and there.” Yeah. And some intellectual, but a lot personal. Yeah. Why did this, or what was going on there?

John Bytheway: 01:02:16 Yeah, what was that all about?

Hank Smith: 01:02:18 Yeah, why did that happen?

John Bytheway: 01:02:20 Yeah. Why were we driven out of Missouri. He’s like, “I was pretty clear about that one.”

Hank Smith: 01:02:26 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:02:26 Any others before we wrap up here?

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:02:30 I think one of the things, going off what you said, I really liked what you just talked about, John. So thank you for that. Oftentimes, we can hear stories of the Lord helping other people. Does God love me if this terrible thing happened? But really as much as we hear those stories, and as much as they can help, it doesn’t mean anything to us unless we have our own testimony. And unless we feel that assurance and that witness from the Spirit, that God is still mindful of you, even though this terrible thing happened, or terrible things, multiple things happened. And that it’s when we come to know for ourselves, that I think even though we can share comforting things with each other, and share scriptures, and that’s what we should do, that in the end, we have to receive that witness for ourselves. And that’s when we can find peace with it. That’s when we can make peace with the terrible things happening in the world. With the, what did Elder Renlund call it? “Infuriating unfairness.”

Hank Smith: 01:03:22 Infuriating unfairness. There’s a piece towards the end of the section I find interesting where the Lord says, “Do you remember the story I told in the Bible about the woman who went to the king and just kept praying, and asking, and asking, and asking. And finally, he’s like, “I will answer your prayer just to get rid of you,” right? He said, “That’s what I want you to do. I want you to importune the judges. I want you to importune the Governor. I want you to importune the President.”

Hank Smith: 01:03:49 And then I found something so fascinating about verse 92. He says, “If none of this has any fruit, then the Lord’s hot displeasure and fierce anger will come.” And then verse 92, “Pray ye, therefore, that their ears may be opened unto your cries, that I may be merciful unto them, that these things may not come upon them.” That’s an interesting thing. That’s an interesting version of pray for your enemies, because you don’t want the Lord’s judgment to come upon them. So pray that they hear you. That’s an interesting moment where it’s almost the Lord is saying, “Oh, pray for them. Because the… what is it? The judgments are coming, and they won’t like them.”

John Bytheway: 01:04:36 Yeah. And I don’t think I’m there. I might’ve been a, “No, no, let them have it, Lord. Let them really, I want to see that hot displeasure thing. You really let them have it.”

Hank Smith: 01:04:47 Yeah. Yeah. He’s saying work your hardest and hope that they listen, because if they don’t, hot displeasure will come.

John Bytheway: 01:04:55 Joseph Smith said, “Come to God and weary him until he blesses you.” And I always thought that the judge says, “Lest she weary me by her continual coming.” And Joseph said, “Yeah, weary the Lord until he blesses you. Keep asking.”

Hank Smith: 01:05:09 I think my children have read this parable. Keep asking until they give in, right? Come to God, what did you say there, John? Come to God and weary him.

John Bytheway: 01:05:20 And weary him until he blesses you. From the Words of Joseph Smith, page 15.

Hank Smith: 01:05:26 Almost-Doctor Sherilyn Farnes. Doctor Next Year. It’s obvious that you have studied this history in depth, especially Edward and Lydia Partridge and their family. And you obviously have a great love for these people. So I think our listeners would love to know, in all of your research, what do you love about the Restoration? How do feel about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries?

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:05:59 That’s a great question. I think what stands out to me most is how human the early Saints were, because in understanding how human they were, it helps me understand how much they relied on the Savior. That we oftentimes, we put them on a pedestal, as it were, Elder Maxwell says, and we dry all their tears off of them. And we say, “Here’s these Saints that were perfect.” And they weren’t perfect. And they didn’t wake up every morning singing, “Come, Come Ye Saints.” When they crossed the plain, sometimes they woke up grumpy. Sometimes they were really annoyed. There’s a great story about Newel K. Whitney, when he’s crossing the plains, and the night guard wakes up. They wake up a gentleman and they’re like, “Hey, we hear a mule and it’s choking and we can’t find it. Can you help us find it?” And they’re looking for this choking mule.

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:06:45 And finally they realize, oh, it’s actually Bishop Newel K. Whitney snoring. He sounds like a choking mule. And we laugh and you think, oh, but what is real life for the Saints? I just picture this Sister pulling in on their covered wagon and looking over and she’s like, “Honey, you parked by Newel K. Whitney,” or NK Whitney, as he was called. “Why did you park by the Whitneys? He’s going to snore all night, I really need sleep. I’ve been up the past two nights with the baby. I need to sleep.” And the husband’s like, “I can’t move now, they already saw that we pulled in. We can’t go park somewhere else with our wagon.” This is real life that these Saints are having to deal with each other. It’s like being on a road trip for months at a time, you’re in close quarters with these people.

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:07:25 And yet what I love is Eliza Partridge says, she says, “There’s so many times in my life I felt like there was no other hope.” But then she says, “There is sure to come a ray of light.” That always there is light. Like Edward Partridge. Her father said that, “There’s light bursting forth,” starting with the Reformers and then continuing exponentially with the Restoration. That it’s because these people weren’t perfect, but they had faith, that’s what I take comfort from. And specifically Joseph Smith led them. That Joseph Smith, as someone said of Gordon B. Hinckley, “He was no more than a man, but he was no less than a prophet. “And that seeing the Lord work with Joseph and work with these Saints, and recognizing that they’re not perfect, it gives me hope that the Lord can work with me.

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:08:07 That maybe as imperfect and flawed as I am, the Lord can somehow use me in some way to help build this kingdom. To help build Zion. It will be hard, right? We’ll be chastened. We’ll be chastened, the Lord says, like Abraham. And there’s a lot of things that we won’t understand, but that’s the point of walking by faith is that we trust in the Lord and that we move forward. Even if we can’t see the end from the beginning, even if like Ether, or excuse me, like the brother of Jared, when the Lord says “There will I meet thee,” that we do the steps that we can, and then he meets us there.

Hank Smith: 01:08:37 Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. John. We’ve been very blessed today.

John Bytheway: 01:08:45 Yeah. Every time we go through one of these and I think I’ve read it, and now I’m seeing things in new ways.

Hank Smith: 01:08:52 Right.

John Bytheway: 01:08:52 So thank you so much Sherilyn for your time, your devotion to this topic, and for sharing these, some of your favorite things with us today. Thank you so much.

Sherilyn Farnes: 01:09:03 Thank you for having me. I feel very blessed, and uplifted, and edified by our discussion, so thank you. And I’ve enjoyed your previous podcasts as well. So thank you for what you’re both doing, to share and increase the light in the world.

John Bytheway: 01:09:15 I just get to listen, mostly. I love it.

Hank Smith: 01:09:17 Yeah, me too. I just have been so blessed today. Like what John said, these sections will mean… will just be different for me from now on, because of all you’ve shared. We want to thank, of course, Sherilyn Farnes, and we want to thank all of you for listening and staying with us. We’re grateful for your support. We could not do this without listeners, right John?

John Bytheway: 01:09:40 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:09:40 If nobody listened, we’d close up shop. So thank you. And thank you for sharing with your friends and family. We of course want to thank our Executive Producers, the wonderful Steve and Shannon Sorensen. We have a production crew that does a ton of work, and we want to mention them. Lisa Spice, David Perry, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Maria Hilton, and Kyle Nelson, thank you to you. We love you all. And we hope to see you next time on the next episode of followHIM.