Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you, as together we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host, and I am here with my Isaiah loving co-host John Bytheway. John, you know why I know you love Isaiah? Because you wrote a book called Isaiah for Airheads. I have that book, and it’s a fantastic read. Is that when you learned to love Isaiah?

John Bytheway: 00:41 I thought when I first had the opportunity to teach the first half of the Book of Mormon, I thought, “Oh my goodness, I have to learn Isaiah. I better know this stuff.” And that was a result of a lot of work and a lot of reading, even from our guests today and a lot of other great scholars. So that book is available at Goodwill and Deseret Industries everywhere.

Hank Smith: 01:03 John and I have our own shelves at… Well, John, in order to cover these sections today, we needed another person who loves Isaiah and I think we found him. Who’s joining us?

John Bytheway: 01:16 I’m very excited today to have Brother Terry Ball with us. And Brother Terry Ball, let me tell you a little bit about him. He served a mission, the Japan Kobe Mission. After returning, he taught Japanese at the MTC, so a big konnichiwa to you. He also taught as a seminary and institute teacher in Arizona, and Mountain Home, Idaho. He served in numerous callings including a bishop, twice, stake president of the BYU 20th stake. He’s married to the former Deanna Hill. They have six children and 14 grandchildren.

John Bytheway: 01:49 This is the part I was excited about, Hank, because I don’t know anybody who has this degree, but he holds a bachelor’s degree in botany and education, a master’s degree in Ancient Near Eastern studies, and a PhD in Archeobotany.

Hank Smith: 02:03 Archeobotany.

John Bytheway: 02:03 How cool does that sound-

Hank Smith: 02:05 Wow.

John Bytheway: 02:07 … archeobotany? I mean, I just discovered in studying Isaiah and the whole scriptures, how often there are agricultural metaphors and parables, and how much of a part of life that was. And so that’s why I’ve just loved reading from Brother Ball, because of his archeobotany background. He became a professor of ancient scripture at BYU in 1992. In 2006, he was the Dean of Religious Education. He’s focused research on the prophet Isaiah. Has continued to research in his field of archeobotany. He’s also taught at the BYU Jerusalem Center.

John Bytheway: 02:42 I’ve used this one a lot, Making Sense of Isaiah right here. And you will notice today, those of you who are watching on video, that Brother Ball is Elder Ball, and has a name tag on. We welcome you and please tell us about your mission, Brother Ball.

Dr. Terry Ball: 02:57 Well, thank you. I’m delighted to be here. My wife and I are currently serving as a senior couple in the Utah Orem Mission, as MLS missionaries. It’s a great opportunity to serve. We work to strengthen new and returning members, and we’re assigned to about 11 stakes in Utah County that we serve.

Hank Smith: 03:14 My goodness, I thought you’d retire and go live your life in Jamaica, but here you are serving a mission, Terry.

Dr. Terry Ball: 03:20 Well, they say you can’t retire till you tire, and I haven’t tired yet, so I’m still here.

Hank Smith: 03:25 I like that. Terry, how long at BYU did you teach Isaiah?

Dr. Terry Ball: 03:30 As I recall, I probably taught my first course, in Isaiah probably about 1992. After I taught seminary for about 10 years. I still sort of viewed Isaiah as the brussels sprouts of the scriptures. They were supposed to be good for you, people said you should consume them, but when they came up on my scriptural plate, I just kind of tried to gag them down and when they were done, I’d think, “Oh, I’m so glad those are over. I know that was good for me, but I don’t know why.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 03:55 But then in the late ’80s, I decided I needed to repent, to follow the Saviors admonition, to search Isaiah diligently. And I started trying harder and working at it. And that decision has been a great blessing in my life. I’ve come to love this prophet. I love what he wrote. I love the way he writes things. I love what he says. I love his teachings. I love the phrases and words now that feel like old familiar friends. I just love this prophet. And I love what he’s done for me as he’s made me a better father and a husband and a saint and a servant.

Dr. Terry Ball: 04:29 Isaiah, for me, now is the dessert of the scriptures, that part you can’t wait to get to and just delight in and take your time and savor every morsel of it. I just love this prophet. And I’m sure a lot of the listeners share that love for Isaiah, and some are probably still trying to get it and I hope that we help.

John Bytheway: 04:47 Yeah, you went from brussels sprouts to the dessert. That’s a lifetime of work and study, and that’s great. We’re so excited to have you, because of your insight on Isaiah. So I’m really looking forward to this today. And I hope you’ll give us some archeobotany and share with us some of these agricultural metaphors and symbols that he uses and how that works.

Hank Smith: 05:10 Terry, how do you want to approach these sections? The lesson this week is Isaiah 40 through 49. The lesson is entitled, Comfort Ye My People. And so far, as we’ve read in Isaiah, not a lot of comforting.

John Bytheway: 05:24 So far.

Hank Smith: 05:25 Yeah, so far. So I was surprised to see the heading Comfort ye My People. Usually when you teach Isaiah, what do your students need to know? What background do they need to have in coming into this?

Dr. Terry Ball: 05:36 Well, Comfort ye My People, I think, is an excellent title for these last 27 chapters of Isaiah. The first 35 chapters of Isaiah, are primarily prophesies of warning, rebuke, repent with a little bit of restoration and hope thrown in. The last 27 chapters, starting with chapter 40, are really prophesies of redemption and the greatness of God. And his plan and ability to save you. And comparing the omnipotence of Jehovah to the impotence of the idols. And it’s like a whole different genre of, there’s all this hope, with a little bit of warning and rebuke thrown in.

Hank Smith: 06:07 Oh, okay.

Dr. Terry Ball: 06:07 And so two very different themes. Right in the middle of those chapters, 36, 37, we have a little historical interlude, which details the Assyrian siege, an attack on Judah in 701 BC. And to me, I think there’s a purposeful structure for this, where you have these first 35 chapters that are rebuke and warning and Christ repentance, and the last 27 chapters of hope and restoration. And in the middle there’s this little case study of how King Hezekiah, the most wonderful king in my estimation to ever rule over Judah, how he is able to access the powers of God through his faithfulness, and overcome this great enemy with God’s help.

Dr. Terry Ball: 06:48 It’s almost like it’s saying, “You need to be like Hezekiah. If you want to have a chapter 40 through 66 experience in relationship with God, rather than a chapter one through 35 experience in relationship with God, follow the example of King Hezekiah in chapter 36 and 37.” So I believe there’s a purposeful structure there to make that very point. And so there is a very different flavor to these last 27 chapters. There’s a lot more hope and restoration and testifying of the greatness and nature of God.

Hank Smith: 07:17 Awesome.

Dr. Terry Ball: 07:18 Chapter 40 is probably a wonderful introduction through this whole final theme, in fact, I sometimes call it the introduction to the greatness of God, as it tells us about who God is and what his attributes are. In the lectures on faith, we’re told that in order for a person to have faith unto salvation, you have to have a belief that there is a God, a knowledge that there is a God; you have to have a proper understanding of his character and attributes; and then you have to have a confidence you’re living life that’s pleasing to him.

Dr. Terry Ball: 07:52 And this chapter 40 is a wonderful place to teach about the nature of God, what his real attributes are. And then the rest of the chapters, up to chapter 66, kind of illustrate this introduction that he gives in chapter 40. One of the things I like to do is just to pick out a few lines from chapter 40, and see what it tells us about the nature of God.

Dr. Terry Ball: 08:15 Shall we do that?

John Bytheway: 08:16 Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith: 08:16 Let’s do it.

Dr. Terry Ball: 08:17 So let me read a few phrases, and then while I’m reading, just kind of think, what does this tell us about the nature of God? Isaiah 40:4, speaking of what God does, every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together. Over to verse 12, he asks this question, who hath measured the waters in the hollow of God’s hand, and meted out the heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the Earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in the scales?

Dr. Terry Ball: 08:54 In verse 15, it talks about God as being one who nations before Him are as a drop of the bucket, and they’re counted as a small dust of the Earth compared to Him and His greatness. Over in chapters 22 through 25, it talks about that he’s the one who sits on the circle of the Earth and the inhabitants are like grasshoppers compared to him. And he makes and sets up princes and establishes kingdoms, and does all these great things. And there’s none equal to him, we see in 25. And so if you’re thinking of an adjective, I know you love adjectives, Hank, what adjective would you use to describe what that tells us about the nature of God?

Hank Smith: 09:31 I loved what you said in verse 25, there is none equal. He is unequal, omniscient, all powerful. You get this chapter 40 that there is nothing like him.

Dr. Terry Ball: 09:43 I liked what you said, when he’s all powerful, or the word we use for that is he’s omnipotent or omnipotent. Now, look in verse 13 and 14, what it tells us, who has directed this spirit of the Lord or been His counselor or hath taught him, with whom did He take counsel? Who instructed Him? Who could instruct Him? You can’t teach him anything, because he is-

Hank Smith: 10:04 He’s omniscient.

Dr. Terry Ball: 10:05 So he is omnipotent. He’s also omniscient. How about this verse? What else does it tell us that he is? Verse seven, the grass withereth, the flower fadeth, because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely, the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth, but the word of our God shall stand forever. In verse 21, it tells us he was there from the foundations of the Earth. In verse 28, we’re told that he is everlasting. So not only is he omnipotent, not only is he omniscient, he’s also-

John Bytheway: 10:38 Omnipresent.

Dr. Terry Ball: 10:39 Omnipresent. Now omnipresent can mean that he’s always there or that he is everywhere. Which one do you think applies to God?

John Bytheway: 10:48 Both.

Dr. Terry Ball: 10:50 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 10:50 I’d say both, yeah.

Dr. Terry Ball: 10:52 So he is omnipotent. He’s omniscient, it’s telling us. He’s omnipresent. How about verse one and two? “Comfort ye my people,” saith your God. “Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned.” Or verse 11, He shall feed His flock like a shepherd. He’ll gather the lambs with His arms and carry them in His bosom, and gently lead them that are with young. And in verse 29, He giveth power to the faint, and to them that have no might, He increases his strength. So He is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and…

Hank Smith: 11:29 All loving.

Dr. Terry Ball: 11:31 Omnibenevolent is the word we sometimes use. And so in this chapter 40, we’re getting this introduction to the correct attributes of God. To me that makes excellent sense that he needs to be these things, as we learn in the lectures on faith, we want to have faith unto salvation.

Dr. Terry Ball: 11:47 For example, if you didn’t believe God was omnipotent, even if he wanted to save you, you might think, “Well, I can’t trust Him, have faith in Him, because He may not have the power to save me.” If you didn’t believe He was omniscient, you might think, “Well, He may have the power to save me, but what? He may not know how to save someone like me.” If you didn’t believe He was omnipresent, you might think, “Well, He has the power and the knowledge to save me, but He might not be there tomorrow for me, or He might not have any influence where I am.” And even if you believed He had the power and the knowledge and the presence to save you, and you didn’t believe He was omnibenevolent, you would think, “He may have the power and want to do all these things for me, but…”

Hank Smith: 12:30 Does he care?

Dr. Terry Ball: 12:31 Yeah. “Why would He care for me?” What a blessing it is to know that God has the power and the knowledge and the presence and the love to save us. In fact, we know that that is His entire work and glory. So chapter 40 here is just kind of introducing these themes that are going to permeate the rest of these 27 chapters. So I think in Come Follow Me, to call this lesson Comfort ye My People, it’s a perfect title to introduce us to this last big block of Isaiah, to show how God plans to comfort and save and redeem His people.

John Bytheway: 13:05 Can you talk to us about this metaphor, all flesh is grass in verse six? Can you talk about the grass in the holy land and why that works?

Dr. Terry Ball: 13:15 Well, particularly when you get into the Judean hill country, where you have just a couple of seasons in the holy land. You have the winter rainy season, where they get a lot of rain, and then you have the summer season, where it’s very hot and dry. It hardly ever rains in the summer. And so a lot of these herbs, particularly the annual herbs and grasses and so forth, have to go through their whole life cycle during the winter rainy season. And so you can have a place that looks absolutely barren, the rains start, you have all these plants that grow up and the grasses, and they look really lush and green and covered with flowers, and then in a couple of months they’re totally gone. And then you have the rest of the year there’s just very, very barren terrain. And so it’s a wonderful metaphor to show that some things come and go, like the grass, but not God.

John Bytheway: 14:01 Is it in the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says, “Which today is, and tomorrow is cast into the oven,” about the nature of grass, how after rain it’ll spring up, but then when it gets dry-

Hank Smith: 14:14 The season’s come and go, but God is ever present.

John Bytheway: 14:18 I had never, until just now thought, oh, does that phrase like a drop in a bucket, that’s an Isaiah phrase? Isn’t that something, in verse 15. I mean, we’ve seen some of those proverbs, apple of thine eye, and stuff like that, that you think, is that where that came from? But maybe Isaiah originated, and with some help from the King James translators, the idea of a drop in a bucket.

Hank Smith: 14:41 And think how powerful nations are, the nations of the Earth today, and Isaiah’s saying, “They’re nothing in comparison. They’re a drop in the bucket.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 14:52 So as he moves on in the text now, in these next few verses clear up through about chapter 46, he’s going to give some illustrations of how God is working to save his people, and all that he has done. And as he does, so he really likes to compare Jehovah, this God of the Old Testament and his great power and knowledge and presence and love to the idols that these people are constantly building and wanting to worship. And the way I like to say it, he wants to show the omnipotence of God through the impotence of idols.

Dr. Terry Ball: 15:24 And you’ll see him do that powerfully in chapter 41, in Chapter 43, in chapter 44, especially, showing that Jehovah can and will do all of these wonderful things for you, and idols can do nothing. So as he moves into chapter 41, I kind of give this title, Jehovah versus the Idols, as he starts showing all the things that God has done and can do for you.

Dr. Terry Ball: 15:50 I found a helpful way to look at chapter 41, to look at the verbs that it says God does, and compare it to the things that idols cannot do. The list of verbs. For example, in 41 you see that God can deliver, He can choose, He can strengthen, He can help, He can uphold, He can defend, He can lead, He can protect, He can nourish, He can nurture, He can provide, and He can prophesy.

John Bytheway: 16:17 Wow.

Dr. Terry Ball: 16:18 All of those things are verbs in that God does. And in contrast, the idols in Chapter 41 cannot create, they cannot move, they cannot act, they cannot choose, they cannot prophesy. It’s kind of fun the way that he brings this message out so powerfully. I like verse 10, the words that start verse 10 of 41 should sound familiar to folks, “Fear not, I am with thee, oh, be ye not dismayed. For I am thy God, I will help thee, I’ll uphold thee by the right hand.” Verse 13, “I will help thee.” Verse 14, “I will help thee.” Verse 15, “I can make.” Verse 17, “I can nourish you. I can give you water. I can care for you.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 17:00 Very interesting in verse 17, where he makes the point that Jehovah is the one who can give them water when they thirst. One of the gods to which the Israelites often apostatized was to the god Baal, B-A-A-L, no relation of mine, I’m B-A-L-L. But Baal, some of us pronounce that Bale. We know that Baal was a god of thunder, lightning, and rain, a storm god. And whenever in the Old Testament you see them making the point that it is Jehovah who controls and gives us water, that’s really an argument against Baal. Trying to make the point, that is Jehovah who controls these things rather than Baal.

Dr. Terry Ball: 17:40 So in verse 17, “When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, their tongue fail for thirst, I the Lord will hear them. I the God of Israel will not forsake them. I’ll open rivers in the high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys, and I’ll make the wilderness a pool of water.” That idea. That’s why, for example, when Elijah becomes the prophet to Israel, just about the time that Ahab marries Jezebel and makes Baalism, the worship of Baal the state religion, one of the first things that Elijah does is to seal the heavens in the name of Jehovah for three years, so that it won’t rain. He’s making the point that Jehovah is God, and controls the waters, not by Baal.

Hank Smith: 18:22 Isaiah’s modern-day reader would’ve picked up on that.

Dr. Terry Ball: 18:25 Yeah, they would’ve understood. They would’ve understood very well. When you have something that is showing that Jehovah is God rather than Baal, the academics call that a Baal polemic. A polemic means an argument against. And there are a lot of Baal polemics in Isaiah as he tries to make this point that Jehovah is God rather than Baal.

Dr. Terry Ball: 18:46 The listeners might want to know, in chapter 41:2 as he is listening to great things that Jehovah does for people. One of the things He does is He raises up the righteous man from the east. A righteous man from the east. This man’s going to be mentioned several times. He’s called the righteous man from the east there. He’s the man who comes from the north in verse 25. Elsewhere, he’s called the ravenous bird from the east. This is all referring to some man who’s going to come, and he’s going to conquer Babylon and set the covenant people free.

Dr. Terry Ball: 19:19 Scholars like to debate who that could be. Some say maybe it was Father Abraham, and some say maybe it was Isaiah himself. Most think that Cyrus, a man named Cyrus, C-Y-R-U-S, and we’ll read about him in chapter 45 here, who conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to return and rebuild Jerusalem, is a fulfillment of that prophecy.

Dr. Terry Ball: 19:42 And all of those are true, but on a spiritual sense, who really does give us the ability to conquer Babylon, the world, and set ourselves free? So Cyrus or Isaiah or Abraham ought to be viewed as a type for Christ. The one who comes from the east and conquers Babylon and sets us free. Anything else in chapter 41 we want to talk about?

Hank Smith: 20:05 Yeah, I think that verse 10, one of those verses that I think Jacob would say, “The word of God which heals the wounded soul.” “Fear thou not I am with thee; be not dismayed, I am thy God. I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.” That’s one that I can see someone in suffering grabbing onto that verse and believing it, having faith in that I don’t need to be scared of the future I trust in my God.

John Bytheway: 20:36 There’s another verse that hymn, I think it’s one of the verses that is maybe four or five that we don’t usually sing, but I like to read it to my students whenever we talk about a refiner’s fire, like perhaps the earlier chapters of Isaiah. Though through fiery trials that pathway may lie, my grace all sufficient shall be thy supply; the flame will not hurt thee; I only design thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine. And when the Zoramites in the Book of Mormon say, “We are as dross,” I like to point out, “That’s a smelting term, and we use that in one of our hymns. I’m going to consume the dross and refine the gold. And that’s the refiner’s fire idea that’s also in that song, How Firm a Foundation.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 21:25 And chapter 43:2 is another stanza from How Firm a Foundation, “When thou passeth through the waters, I will be with thee, and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee.” When through the deep waters I cause you to go, the rivers of sorrow shall not overflow. When though walketh through the fire that shall not be burned. Neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. That particular hymn draws a lot from these chapters of Isaiah.

Hank Smith: 21:47 Yeah, for I am the Lord thy God, right out of the hymn.

Dr. Terry Ball: 21:52 Then he throws down the challenge in verse 22 of 41 to the idols. Well, he’s talked about all these great things Jehovah does, and now he turns to them and he says, “Let them bring forth,” them being the idols, these manmade things you’ve done and Baal and so forth. “Let them bring forth, shew us what will happen: let them shew former things, that we may consider them, and know the latter end; or declare us things to come. Shew things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good or do evil.” Do something.

Hank Smith: 22:20 Do something.

Dr. Terry Ball: 22:21 Anything, “that we may be dismayed and behold it together. Behold, ye are nothing, and your work is of not: an abomination is he that chooses you.” And then he goes back and talks about what Jehovah does. He raises up, He brings forth, He helps, and all those things. That idea, Isaiah’s going to bring this idea that what God can do and what idols can’t do several times in these chapters. Someone once likened Isaiah to a fugue. A fugue is, for musical people, it’s where you have a particular theme or melody, and then you have different sections of the orchestra give different variations of it and weave it all together into this beautiful masterpiece.

Dr. Terry Ball: 23:02 And Isaiah does that often. And in this particular fugue, the idea is the greatness of God and the nothingness of idols. And he goes back and forth showing all the things that God can do to all the things that idols cannot do. For example, go to chapter 46. If you look at chapter 46, here he starts talking about what idols can’t do, and compares it to what God does.

Dr. Terry Ball: 23:26 In verse one, it talks about Bel and Nebo, those are gods of the Ancient Near East. He says, “Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols are upon beasts, and upon cattle: your carriages were laden with them; they are a burden to the weary beast. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.” These idols are just this heavy burden that animals have to carry around.

Dr. Terry Ball: 23:49 And then how about Jehovah in verse 3? “Hearken onto me, oh, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the House of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb. Even to your old age, I’m he. Even to a hoar” that means white hair here, “white hair will I carry you: I make, I bear, I will carry, and will deliver you.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 24:12 What do you want for your God, this thing that you have to put upon animals to carry around-

Hank Smith: 24:16 Carry around.

Dr. Terry Ball: 24:16 … they can’t do anything? Or would you rather be carried by your God?

John Bytheway: 24:20 It reminds me of, is it one of the Psalms or is it Proverbs? They have eyes, but they see not. Ears have they, but they hear not. Mouths have they, but they speak not. And then it makes this funny comment, they that worship them are like unto them.

Dr. Terry Ball: 24:34 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 24:35 But President Kimball might say, “Okay, so we can think, those silly ancient people and their idols.” But what might President Kimball say to us today?

Hank Smith: 24:45 “We have idols of our own.”

John Bytheway: 24:47 Yeah.

Dr. Terry Ball: 24:48 One of the most profound comparisons between Jehovah and the worshiping of idols is found in chapter 44, much like he did in chapter 41, and in chapter 46, he again bears testimony of all that Jehovah can do for us and has done, and there’s no God like him. And then in the middle of the chapter, he talks about how these people make an idol to compare them. And he kind of pokes fun at them. He notes down in verse 14 and 15 that they have this tree they cut down, and then after he’s cut it down, you see in verse 15, he takes part of it to burn for heating fuel. You see that? Then shall he be for a man to burn. And then he’ll take part of it to warm himself, and then he’ll take part of if for cooking fuel. Yea, he kindleth it and baketh bread: yeah, he maketh the god and he worshippeth with it.

Dr. Terry Ball: 25:37 And to him, that’s just absurd. You cut down this tree, part of it you used for heating fuel, part of it you use for cooking fuel, and the rest of it you worship. And that sounds so ludicrous to him that he repeats this three times. In verse 16, he says it again, he burns part thereof in a fire with part roasteth roast, and is satisfied. He warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm.” And the residue thereof, he maketh a god, even his graven image: he followeth down to it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it and says, “Deliver me; for thou art my god.” And then he says it the third time in 18 and 19, they’ve not known or understand: he shut their eyes, they can’t see; their hearts, they can’t understand. None considers in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, “I burned part of it in the fire; yea, I have also baked bread with the coals thereof; I’ve roasted flesh, and eaten it. Shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? Shall I fall down to the stock or stump of a tree?”

Dr. Terry Ball: 26:30 And then he uses this incredible metaphor, tell me what you make of this. Talking about the person who makes an idol and worships it out of a tree, he says, he, the one who worships idols, feedeth on ashes. So that begs the question, how is worshiping false gods and idols like eating ashes?

Hank Smith: 26:54 There’s zero.

John Bytheway: 26:56 There’s nothing there.

Dr. Terry Ball: 26:58 So you’re hungry and you want to get rid of the hunger pangs and you choose to eat ashes. Could you eat enough ashes that your hunger was satiated? Could you say, “I’m so full I couldn’t eat another ash”? But on the same hand, could you have a belly full of ashes and die of malnutrition?

Hank Smith: 27:17 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 27:17 Yeah.

Dr. Terry Ball: 27:18 So they’re going through all these acts of putting all their confidence in something that’s not going to satiate their real needs. I always like to ask my students, “So what are some modern-day ashes that people feed upon?”

John Bytheway: 27:32 Oh, good application.

Hank Smith: 27:35 Their god can’t feed you… Social media, I can devour and devour and devour social media, and yet have nothing. Nothing to show for it. Come away hungry, maybe even hungrier than I was when I started.

John Bytheway: 27:49 Yeah, that’s great.

Dr. Terry Ball: 27:50 So someday, Hank, you’ll be walking through your living room and your kids will be watching a football game and a commercial will come on that’ll show a bunch of half-dressed people dancing on the beach, drinking some kind of alcohol, looking like they’ll have a great time. And you’ll just point at and say, “They’re feeding on ashes.” And they’ll say, “What do you mean?” And then you’ll be able to explain to them, “They’re going through the motions to satisfy their desire to be happy, but in the end they’re feeding on ashes.”

Hank Smith: 28:17 And it is quite a metaphor, Terry. I mean, to picture someone feeding on the ashes of a fire. I can see he’s going for repulsiveness here.

John Bytheway: 28:26 And absurdity too. Just, why would you do that? Fall down to the stock of a tree. Why would you do that?

Dr. Terry Ball: 28:33 The rest of that verse is talking about the one who feeds on ashes. He says, a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?” That’s the hand you’re eating with. So the lie in your right hand is this handful of ashes sitting there thinking, “If I consume this, it’s going to take care of my needs.”

Hank Smith: 28:49 It’s going to help me.

Dr. Terry Ball: 28:50 And it’s not.

Hank Smith: 28:52 And there’s my phone in my right hand, Terry.

Dr. Terry Ball: 28:54 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 28:58 The ashes in my hands, it’s a lie. It’s absolute deception. Isn’t that Second Nephi, right? He leadeth their souls carefully down to hell.

Dr. Terry Ball: 29:07 He does just a marvelous job here of explaining how Jehovah is a God, He doesn’t have to be made. Jehovah is a God who can choose, He doesn’t have to be chosen. Jehovah’s a God who loves you, it’s not a one-way relationship. You can love Him, and He can return your love. This is such a powerful, powerful metaphor to show the greatness of God, all in a context of showing that God has this power to redeem and will save His people.

Hank Smith: 29:37 Jehovah is a God who makes and doesn’t need to be made. I like that.

Dr. Terry Ball: 29:44 Yeah. He can create, He doesn’t need to be created. And that’s important to know. One of the things that some of our other Christian brothers and sisters struggle with in the Latter-day Saint theology is the notion that we can become our Father in heaven. That God’s work and glory really is to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. And that man and God are the same species, that we can become like God. In fact, the whole purpose for our creation is to become like our Father in heaven. The academic term for that is theosis.

Dr. Terry Ball: 30:18 Some people, not of our faith, like to look at chapter 43:10, where God is trying to explain that He’s greater than the idols. And they look at the end of verse 10, and they read this verse and say, “This is saying that the Latter-day Saint belief that we can become God is not true, because it says at the end of verse 10, Jehovah says, ‘I am he, before me there was no god formed and neither shall there be after me.'” And you can kind of see how they would read that and think, “Well, therefore man really cannot become like God.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 30:53 But to put that interpretation upon it is taking it out of context. Really, he’s not arguing that we can’t become like God. He’s arguing that the manmade idols you made are not gods. And so this is an argument against the worshiping of manmade and false idols. Not an argument against our potential to become like God. And those who want to take this argument and construe it into an argument against our ability to become like God are really misreading the scripture and taking it out of context.

Hank Smith: 31:27 So these manmade gods cannot become Gods.

Dr. Terry Ball: 31:31 Yeah. There is no other God for them. I like to use this analogy. You have one biological father, no other biological fathers. There’ll be none before them and none after. There’s only one man that is your biological father that you should love and honor. That in no way precludes that idea that other men can become fathers, and that their children should love and honor them. But as far as you are concerned, you have one father besides him, there is no other. There’s none before him, and there’ll be none after him. One biological father. And that’s really the kind of point that I think Isaiah’s making here in 43. You have one father in heaven who created the Earth and is your God, and there’s none before and none after.

Hank Smith: 32:22 That’s a great way to explain that. These chapters definitely have a different tone to them than the ones we’ve studied previously.

Dr. Terry Ball: 32:30 So much hope in them.

Hank Smith: 32:32 Right. He’s softened a little bit maybe.

Dr. Terry Ball: 32:36 Well, he’s done plenty of yelling at them in those first 35 chapters. It’s nice to afterwards show an increase of love.

Hank Smith: 32:43 To whom thou hast reproved.

Dr. Terry Ball: 32:45 Let me just mention in 43 that, again, he makes this point that He’s a God so involved in their lives. He makes the point in verse one of 43 that God is the one who redeems him. He is their goel, that’s a Hebrew word, G-O-E-L. A goel is usually a near relative who does something for you you can’t do for yourself to redeem you from some mess you’ve got yourself into. So that makes really good sense, when we think about our Savior. He is our goel. He is our redeemer.

John Bytheway: 33:13 Yeah, we’ve talked about that with other kinsman redeemer, right Hank?

Hank Smith: 33:17 Yeah, with Ruth.

John Bytheway: 33:19 Called that a goel is a kinsman redeemer. Which really I love that, because it’s a family thing. He’s our kinsman. I like the closeness it kind of reflects that phrase, kinsman redeemer.

Dr. Terry Ball: 33:33 In verse 11 it says, “I, even I, am the Lord and beside me there is no Savior.” This is one of the places where we come to understand that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, this God of the Old Testament, because he is our Savior. If you ask Isaiah who is our savior, he’ll say, “The Lord.” If you ask a Christian who is our savior, they’ll say, “Jesus Christ.” And so if you do the math, if the Savior equals Jesus Christ and Savior equals the Lord, then the Lord is-

Hank Smith: 34:05 The Savior.

Dr. Terry Ball: 34:06 … Jesus Christ. Perhaps the listeners would want to know that if they see in verse 11 that the word Lord is written in small capital letters. I don’t know if you’ve ever discussed what that means in an Old Testament context.

Hank Smith: 34:18 Hey, repetition’s always good

Dr. Terry Ball: 34:20 When you see the word Lord in small capital letters in the King James version, that is the way the King James people chose to translate the name of the God of the Old Testament. The actual word there is the third person future tense of the verb to be, it’s Y-H-W-H and was probably pronounced Yahweh.

Hank Smith: 34:42 Yahweh.

Dr. Terry Ball: 34:43 That’s a very sacred name to our Jewish brothers and sisters. They don’t speak it. When they’re reading this text and they come to this phrase, Yahweh, it’s called the Tetragrammaton in academic circles, when they come to that, when a Jew is reading this, they won’t say, “Yahweh,” instead they’ll say, HaShem, which means the name, or they’ll say Adonai, which means Lord. And so in deference to that, whenever they come to this name of God in the Old Testament, the King James translator decided to write Lord in small capital letters rather than writing the name Yahweh.

Dr. Terry Ball: 35:18 When Moses spoke to God on Mount Sinai as he was called to go deliver Israel, he said, “Who shall I say, sent me?” And God said, “Remember I am.” He would’ve used the first person future tense of the verb to be, He would’ve Ehyeh, but we would refer to Him in the third person, which is Yahweh.

Dr. Terry Ball: 35:38 When the Masoretes added the vowels to the Hebrew text, the Hebrew text was originally written just consonants, when they added the vowels to the text, when they came to this Tetragrammaton, the name of God, Yahweh, they actually wrote in the vowels for the word Adonai, to alert the reader to say, “Adonai,” rather than Yahweh. If you take the consonants from Yahweh, and read it with the vowels from Adonai, you come up with the name Yahowah, which we turn into English to the name Jehovah. And that’s where the name Jehovah comes from. It’s a combination of the vowels from Adonai and the consonants from Yahweh, Yahowah.

Dr. Terry Ball: 36:18 And William Tyndale first coined the word Jehovah. Of course, in Latter-day Saint terminology now, we use Jehovah to refer to God the Son and Elohim to refer to God the Father. Joseph Smith kind of used those terms interchangeably to refer to one of the other or both. But by the time we get to Brigham Young, we’re finding that Elohim is used primarily to refer to God the Father and Jehovah to God the Son. And they answer to that, and it works very, very well to show the distinction between the two.

Dr. Terry Ball: 36:48 But you know that somehow even before Christ attained a mortal body, he had attained into the stature of God, and was divinely vested with the authority to be the God of the Old Testament, to be Yahweh or Jehovah. So as you read verse 11, in chapter 43, you can see that I, even I, am Jehovah, besides me, there is no savior. And so Jehovah is Jesus Christ. He is our savior and the God of the Old Testament. Anyway, that was a long aside, but-

Hank Smith: 37:20 No, no, that was perfect.

John Bytheway: 37:21 That was more detail than I think we’ve had before. I didn’t know the part about Adonai and taking the-

Dr. Terry Ball: 37:29 Consonants from Yahweh and coming up with Yahowah.

John Bytheway: 37:32 And for Tyndale to do that, I didn’t know that. That’s awesome.

Dr. Terry Ball: 37:36 Well, the King James people relied so heavily on William Tyndale. We owe such a debt of gratitude to that martyr.

Hank Smith: 37:42 Oh, unbelievably, yeah. The more I study, the more inspired I am.

Dr. Terry Ball: 37:47 In the context of trying to show the greatness of God and all that he does for people. One of the things that these latter chapters do is to point out that God is going to raise up this particular servant. Scattered throughout these chapters of Isaiah, there are a collection of passages that we sometimes call the servant songs or the servant psalm. And they’re called that because they all deal with this servant who comes and will actually suffer for the people, and through his suffering perform a great work for them. And again, the context is I’m the one who gives you this servant.

Dr. Terry Ball: 38:23 And of course the academics like to discuss who the servant is. And some say, “Well, maybe it’s the nation of Israel as a whole,” or, “Maybe it’s Isaiah himself.” Sometimes Joseph Smith seems to be a fulfillment of some of these servant songs. But in the end, all those others, and Cyrus as well is perhaps an example of servant, but all of them should be viewed as a type or symbol because in the end, the real servant is Jesus Christ. Only he fulfills all the servant songs and some of them only he can fulfill.

Dr. Terry Ball: 38:55 There’s a servant song that starts chapter 42. There’s a servant song that begins chapter 49. There’s a servant song in chapter 50, a servant song in chapter 52. And then the most wonderful servant song of all that you’ll discuss in a future podcast is Isaiah chapter 53, that’s the best. But the first servant song is actually found in Isaiah 42. And perhaps it would be helpful just to look at the two servant songs that appear in the scripture block. Would that be all right?

Hank Smith: 39:23 Absolutely.

Dr. Terry Ball: 39:24 Chapter 42 starts with the servant… And I found a helpful way to study the servant songs is to read them, and then try to see how this particular prophecy is fulfilled by Jesus Christ during his mortal ministry. And so if you start with chapter 42 and read down through, oh, verse four to start with, read that carefully and then ask, “What does this tell us about Jesus Christ? And how did he fulfill it?”

Dr. Terry Ball: 39:51 As it begins, Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I’ve put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment or justice to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and a smoking or smoldering flax, that’s a wick in a candle, a smoldering candle, shall he not quench: he shall bring forward judgment unto truth. And he’ll not fail, nor be discouraged, till he set justice in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Dr. Terry Ball: 40:32 So as you look at those verses, first we learn that this particular entity is a servant of God, and our servant as well. Huh? He is upheld by God, and you can think of all the ways that the Father upheld the son. How would you explain what elect means in that first verse, mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth?

Hank Smith: 40:51 It reminds me of, what is it, Moses chapter four? He was my chosen from the beginning.

Dr. Terry Ball: 40:59 From the very beginning, so he wasn’t, as some agnostic Christians would later teach, just a good man that God put his spirit into, and had his baptism and took it away just at his crucifixion. But he was chosen from the very beginning. And I suspect we were part of what elected him. He certainly had the spirit of God. He’ll bring forth judgment to the Gentiles, but it doesn’t necessarily mean punishment, but it means reward as well.

Dr. Terry Ball: 41:24 What do you make about verse two and three in regards to the mortal ministry of Christ, he’ll not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street?

John Bytheway: 41:34 Oh, I just think his ministry will not be loud and out there like some others are. I think the next one goes to it, he’ll not harm nor hurt a bruised reed shall not break. Maybe it’s just kind of that humble circumstances. He’s born in a manger, and maybe it’s that sort of a thing.

Hank Smith: 41:54 A gentle ministry.

Dr. Terry Ball: 41:56 So this is very different than the millennial Messiah, isn’t it? And when he comes, there’ll be quite a stir.

John Bytheway: 42:00 Everyone will know.

Dr. Terry Ball: 42:02 But this one, you think about Jesus as he’s born to this impoverished couple in a tiny obscure section of the Roman Empire, in the humblest of circumstances. And most the world didn’t know he came and went.

John Bytheway: 42:15 Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Type of thing.

Hank Smith: 42:18 But I love verse four, He shall not fail.

Dr. Terry Ball: 42:21 And the isles shall wait for his law, end of verse four. Isles we know in Isaiah almost always refers to the scattered covenant people. We know that, because when Nephi quotes Isaiah chapter 49, he tells us what the islands are.

John Bytheway: 42:38 Oh, isles.

Dr. Terry Ball: 42:39 Yeah. And maybe we can talk about that in a moment. But I like to extend the servant song down to verse seven, because I think he’s continuing to talk about what this servant will do. In verse six, I will call thee in righteousness and hold thine hand, and I will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light to the Gentiles. And he’ll open the blind eyes, and to bring out the prisoners from prison, and those that sit in darkness out of the prison house. You can think about D&C 1:38 and Peter 3 and talking about how Christ organized disparates to minister to those that were in prison during the time before his death and resurrection.

Dr. Terry Ball: 43:18 And so if you’re kind of summarizing what this teaches us about Christ. We learned that he’s the servant of the Father. That he was chosen from the very beginning and upheld by him. That his ministry was not only to Israel but to the Gentiles as well, and to give them light. That it would be a quiet and humble and an obscure ministry that would not create much a stir in most of the world. And yet it would be a successful ministry, and the scattered covenant people would come and be waiting for it. And that this ministry would give sight to the blind, and that it would work on both sides of the veil, the living and those who had passed away. All great and wonderful truths about our Messiah, about Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 44:01 And such a gentle way to say it. It’s almost as if the way he describes it is the way he lived it. Gentle and successful. Gentle and moving forward.

Dr. Terry Ball: 44:14 Yeah, that’s a good way to summarize it. In chapter 49, the first three verses, we have the second servant song. And it actually kind of gives a second witness to the first servant song, as it repeats some of the same themes and promises about what Jehovah will do and can do. We mentioned that there’s a significant addition to chapter 49 of Isaiah, when it was quoted by Nephi to his brethren from the brass plates.

Hank Smith: 44:43 In first Nephi 21?

Dr. Terry Ball: 44:45 First Nephi 21:1. The King James version and the Hebrew text, all begin with this imperative, listen, oh isles, unto me. But here’s the phrase that begins First Nephi 21:1 that was on the brass plates, and somehow was removed from the text by the time we get to the King James version. Here’s how that read on the brass plates. Hearken, oh ye House of Israel, all ye that are broken off and are driven out because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people; yea, all ye that are broken off and that are scattered abroad who are of my people, oh House of Israel. Listen, oh isles unto me.

Dr. Terry Ball: 45:25 So there it makes it clear that the isles are the people who are the House of Israel, who’ve been broken and scattered abroad. Because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people.

Hank Smith: 45:35 I can see why someone wanted that deleted.

Dr. Terry Ball: 45:39 You mean I’m responsible for the scattering of Israel for the diaspora? Well, yeah.

John Bytheway: 45:45 I’ve always loved just that they consider themselves upon an isle of the sea. And the fact that he would grab those chapters that talk about, I haven’t forgotten those on the isles of the sea. I think it would be encouraging for Nephi to read to his people.

Dr. Terry Ball: 46:02 Yeah. Chapter 48 and 49 are the very first two chapters quoted in the Book of Mormon. Nephi said he’s going to quote from Isaiah to them that they could more fully be persuaded to believe in their Redeemer, that they might have hope as a people that have been broken off. And chapters 48 and 49 really give him that hope. The first part of 49 is this powerful servant song again, where the servant here speaks in first person.

Hank Smith: 46:31 And you can feel it here, these Nephites, Lehites, I guess we could say, who have been driven off and probably wondering, have I been forgotten? And Isaiah is speaking to them long before they’re scattered that they have not been forgotten. Is that the essence of what we’re about to jump into here?

Dr. Terry Ball: 46:50 It is, particularly the end of 49. The first part of 49 helps to fulfill what Nephi said when he said that they might, “I read Isaiah to them, they could know of their Redeemer better.” Because the first part of 49 is the servant song, it teaches about the Redeemer. The last part of 49 talks about how he’s going to gather his people in the end. Shall we look at the first part?

Hank Smith: 47:12 Yeah, let’s do it.

Dr. Terry Ball: 47:13 To start with. As you read the first part of 49, you see that some of what he says sounds very similar to what he said about the Messiah in the servant song in 42, where the servant says, The Lord called me from the womb, and from the bowels of my mother he made mention of my name. In other words, he was elect from the very beginning. There’s some imagery that suggests some tension in verse two. Can you make any sense out of this? This is a servant speaking, he has made my mouth like a sharp sword; yet, in the shadow of his hand hath hid me. He hath made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me.

Hank Smith: 47:51 Yeah, that’s interesting. I’m ready to go. I’m this strong tool, and yet he’s not using me.

Dr. Terry Ball: 47:56 Or my ministry’s going be somewhat hidden or quiet.

Hank Smith: 47:59 I’m held back.

John Bytheway: 48:00 He’s coming in a way you don’t expect.

Dr. Terry Ball: 48:03 Yeah, I could come and power and glory and smite you down, but that’s not my purpose here. Verse three, and he said, thou art my servant. And here’s one of the reasons why people think that Israel is a fulfillment of this as well, oh Israel, in whom I will be glorified. That could also be translated as thou art my servant, in whom I will glorify Israel. And that makes sense too, doesn’t it?

Dr. Terry Ball: 48:21 Verse four and five get confusing to people, but I love what it teaches about the mortal ministry of Christ. It says then I said, “I’ve labored in vain,” this is the servant speaking “I spent my strength for not and in vain.” In other words, it looks like I might have been a failure, then he makes this qualifier, “Yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work is with my God. And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, my God shall be my strength.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 48:55 So on one level you get this idea that, boy, it looks like on one layer I’ve been a failure. I haven’t gathered Israel and redeemed them, and set them up. But on the other I’ve done what God wanted me to do. Every time I read this, I think about what happened on Palm Sunday. You remember the Messianic expectation at the time of Christ is that he would show up during a Passover. And on that particular Passover, the rumor was going around that there’s this man, Jesus of Nazareth, who some believe is the Messiah. And they wondered if he was going to show up, because he’d raised Lazareth, the Sanhedrin was determined to have him assassinated. And they wonder if he’s going to show up.

Dr. Terry Ball: 49:34 And that on that Palm Sunday, Jesus, who had been staying at Mary and Martha’s house in Bethany, climbed up to the top of the Mount of Olives to a city called Bethphage. And there he mounted a colt, the foal of an ass, and began riding it towards Jerusalem. And apparently people recognized that this was Jesus of Nazareth, and he was coming riding the colt, the foal of an ass, in fulfillment of prophecy.

Hank Smith: 49:58 Here it comes, right? You got to be thinking, here it comes.

Dr. Terry Ball: 50:01 Here it comes. Here comes the Messiah. In fact, they get so excited. They leave the city, they line the path leading into the city of Jerusalem. Do you remember what they were doing?

Hank Smith: 50:12 Yeah, throwing down palm fronds, clothes.

Dr. Terry Ball: 50:16 And taking out their outer garments and strewing them before him as you would a conquering king who was returning. So he comes in to Jerusalem, riding in and being called the son of David. And they’re yelling, “Remember hoshana,” which means save us now. When he comes in the gates of Jerusalem, the gate that he entered into, he has two choices. He could turn to the right and that would put him into the Antonio Fortress, this big Roman garrison that the Romans built really tall, so they could keep an eye on the people and see what was going on in the temple. Or he could turn to the left, which would take him right into the temple complex.

Dr. Terry Ball: 50:55 These people who are yelling, “Hoshana, save us now,” it seems that they’re expecting him to ride into Jerusalem, turn to the right, wipe out the Roman garrison, and usher in the millennial theocracy.

Hank Smith: 51:06 Right here we go.

Dr. Terry Ball: 51:07 Destroy them. Destroy these nations and kingdoms that have oppressed them for so many years and start the millennium. And he could have done that, right? He could have wiped out the Romans, at what cost? And we read that instead of turning to the right, he turned to the left and he went to the temple.

Dr. Terry Ball: 51:23 Mark records that he just looked around and then went back to Bethany, went home. Now, if you’re standing there and you’ve got palm slivers in your fingers and you’re not wearing your outer coat, because you’re throwing it before Christ and you see that he just came and looked around, and then went home, how do you feel?

Hank Smith: 51:42 That’s the road to Emmaus, right Terry? We thought it was him.

Dr. Terry Ball: 51:45 So some Messiah you are. You couldn’t even wipe out the Romans. Because they didn’t understand, they didn’t know that he didn’t come to overthrow nations. You came to overthrow something far greater than this mortal ministry, he came to conquer sin and death. I think that’s part of the reason why these people who on this Palm Sunday are saying, “Hoshana, save us now, thou son of David.” They’re so disappointed that he didn’t fulfill their messianic expectation, that by the time they get to Friday and they say, “What shall we do with him?” They say, “Crucify him. Crucify him, because he’s a phony. He wasn’t what we expected.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 52:23 So there’s that tension there. And I wonder if that’s part of what verse four and five of chapter 49 are trying to show. That while he doesn’t do what some of the people thought to come and use his sharp sword and his polished shaft and to wipe out the Romans. That’s okay, because in verse four, his judgment is with God, his work is with God. He came to conquer sin and death, not Romans. Or in chapter five, he didn’t come to gather the people into theocracy at that time. He came to do the glorious work of God. And so anyway, that’s one way to understand it that kind of makes sense to me.

Hank Smith: 53:00 I’ve heard it described, Terry, in Luke, that here he comes, all that’s left to do is to ride into Jerusalem and crown him king. That’s the last step. And he’ll wipe out the Romans, and instead he goes into Jerusalem and he does get crowned. He’s now king over death. Something much grander than they had in mind. I don’t want to be the king over this small Israel. I’m the Messiah of the whole world. I have conquered death, not just the Romans.

Dr. Terry Ball: 53:28 That’s a beautiful way to summarize it. As the servant song continues in verse six, he makes the point again that it’s not just for Israel, but also for the Gentiles to whom he will be a light.

Hank Smith: 53:39 It was so much bigger, his mission was so much bigger than what they had in mind.

Dr. Terry Ball: 53:44 And in verse nine, he’s there to set prisoners free. Again, much like we saw in the servant song in chapter 42. It’s for the living and the dead, in this world and in the spirit world. And that he comes as a covenant.

Dr. Terry Ball: 53:56 This servant song, if you’re summarizing it, tells us again that he’s foreordained, that he’s very, very powerful. But this ministry is going to be quiet and hidden. That on some levels people may think that he didn’t do what he was supposed to, because he’s doesn’t fulfill their messianic expectation. But he does the work that God wants him to do, and that this work will bless Gentiles and Israel alike. And those on this side of the veil and those on the other alike. Just a powerful witness of the mortal Messiah. And that’s a really helpful way to look at that particular servant song.

Hank Smith: 54:29 Yeah. It may seem like a failure, but it was a grand victory.

John Bytheway: 54:33 I’ve heard it described as the messiah of popular expectation, like you said. I’m going to redeem Israel, political Israel by throwing off the Romans. And am I correct in thinking, even all the way up until Peter taking out his sword and cutting off the ear of the high priest servant, I mean even then it seems like, okay, here we go. And Jesus turns, and, “I’m not that kind of Messiah. You too are thinking I’m the Messiah that will redeem political Israel by throwing off the Romans, but we’ve got tougher enemies like death and sin to conquer.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 55:08 When you study Isaiah 53, that servant song, it makes it clear again that this particular servant is the mortal Messiah who has this quiet, humble ministry that yet conquers something far greater. And you’ll read that he has no form, no comeliness, there’s no beauty that we should desire him. We hid our faces from him.

John Bytheway: 55:27 Despised, rejected, yeah.

Dr. Terry Ball: 55:29 And wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities.

John Bytheway: 55:33 I tell my students it seems so obvious this is talking about Christ. How do our Jewish brothers and sisters look at these servant songs? Do they see it as, this is talking about us, the House of Israel, and we are the suffering servant? Or how might they look at Isaiah 53 or some of these other servant songs?

Dr. Terry Ball: 55:54 Well, I’m not sure I’m qualified to explain how the Jews mostly understand it. My sense is, is that there’s probably a wide variety of ways they understand it, because there’s a wide spectrum of Judaism and levels of observation. I think that there’s certainly the idea that Israel itself is the servant who serves the whole world.

Dr. Terry Ball: 56:14 I think you’ll find many who think that Cyrus is a fulfillment of this, as he comes and conquers Babylon says to people free. It’s a difficult thing for academics to think that this is talking about Christ, because if that’s the case, then it would mean prophets can prophesy. And I remember reading one author who wrote that the event of the life of Jesus of Nazareth were fabricated after his death to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 53. That seemed like a simpler explanation than say, “Well, no, Jesus’ prophets can prophesy and this is a prophecy of him.”

John Bytheway: 56:47 Well and clearly Abinadi interpreted it as this is the Messiah. It’s not the law that saves, it’s redemption comes because of Christ. Haven’t you read? And he gives him Isaiah 53. So I’ve always just wondered, it seems so obvious, and that seems to be, if I paraphrase Abinadi, “How could you miss this? Redemption comes because of the servant.”

Dr. Terry Ball: 57:11 And when we make his soul an offering for our sins, we become his seed.

John Bytheway: 57:14 Then we’ll see his seed.

Dr. Terry Ball: 57:16 And how beautiful upon the mountains are those that declare that.

John Bytheway: 57:19 Which is so cool, because that was the original Isaiah question they tried to stump Abinadi with, and he gets there. He finally gets to the answer after he prophesies of Christ. It’s kind of fun to see how that all flows in the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Terry Ball: 57:33 Like Elder Packer used to say, “He answered the questions they should have asked before he answers the question they did ask.”

John Bytheway: 57:42 Please join us for part two of this podcast.