John Bytheway: 00:03 Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 00:07 Again, focusing on relying on the Lord. Verse 26, “The Lord shall be thy confidence.” Well, actually, the word is trust. Going back to the Lord is thy trust. And so hearkening back to what we saw in three. And really, keep your foot from being taken. As you get into four, what you’re getting here, it says don’t just know wisdom, but really love what wisdom is. And so you really seek it.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 00:28 And then when you get into four, versus 10 to 19, it’s really like, well, there’s two paths. There’s the path of the wicked, and there’s the path of the just. And saying, stay on the path of the just, or the righteous. Think in scriptures, this idea of two paths, one Nephi, or you think of the Sermon on the Mount. Choose the right path and stay on that one. Because it’s very easy to divert from. So it gives you counsel on how not to divert from that path.

Hank Smith: 00:56 Perfect. I think what we’re talking about here can be illustrated in so many lives. That Latter-day Saints and non Latter-day Saints go through something horrifically difficult, but continue to trust in the Lord. They stay on the path that both of you talked about.

Hank Smith: 01:12 This is a story from President Monson, April, 2009. The talk was called, “Be of Good Cheer.” He talks about a woman who went through World War II. March of 1946, less than a year after the end of the war, then Elder Ezra Taft Benson visits Germany, and he meets a woman who bears this testimony. President Monson tells her story.

Hank Smith: 01:37 She and her husband lived in idyllic life in east Prussia, then had come the war. Her beloved young husband was killed. She’s driven from her home. The journey was over a thousand miles on foot. As the days turned into weeks and weeks into months, the temperatures dropped below freezing.

Hank Smith: 01:54 She stumbled over frozen ground. Her smallest child, a baby in her arms, her three other children struggled behind her. The oldest, just seven years old, pulling a tiny wooden wagon. Then the snows came, and one by one, the unthinkable happened. The tiny forms of her children, all four of them, go cold and still.

Hank Smith: 02:15 It says her despair was all consuming. In this moment of overwhelming sorrow and complete bewilderment, she felt her heart would literally break. In despair, she contemplated how she might end her own life. And then as these thoughts assailed her, something within her said, “Get down on your knees and pray.”

Hank Smith: 02:37 She ignored the prompting until she could resist it no longer. She knelt and prayed more fervently than she had in her entire life. And then this is the prayer. “Dear Heavenly Father. I do not know how I can go on. I have nothing left except my faith in thee. I feel, Father, amidst the desolation of my soul, an overwhelming gratitude for the atoning sacrifice of thy son, Jesus Christ. I cannot express adequately my love for him. I know that because he suffered and died, I shall live again with my family. That because he broke the chains of death, I shall see my children again and will have joy and will have the joy of raising them, though I do not at this moment, wish to live.”

Hank Smith: 03:21 Let me say that again, because it’s so good. “Though I do not at this moment wish to live, I will do so that we may be reunited as a family and return together to thee.” It says when she finally reaches a city in Germany where she can stay, she was literally in the advanced stages of starvation. And yet she stands in a church meeting and bears a glorious testimony. That is the epitome of what we’ve talked about here. Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, get on the covenant path and stay there.

John Bytheway: 03:58 Hank, we were as a family the other night watching a church produced video, more recent, called, “The Refiner’s Fire,” about a woman, I believe her name was Kim Martin, who lost her whole family. Just super inspired by it, but also just thinking, wow. That power of trusting. We watch a story like that or hear a story like that and think, boy, I hope I have that in me.

Hank Smith: 04:22 I hope I have that in me. I like that, John.

John Bytheway: 04:24 That kind of trust. I don’t know for sure.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 04:27 This ties in well with four, verse 25. We’re talking about this path of the righteous, and get to 25 says, “Let thine eyes look right on.” But I think a better rendering translation should be,”Let your eyes look forward and let the eyelids look straight before thee.” So, focus ahead. Look forward.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 04:46 You think of the tree of life, the Book of Mormon. Keeping your focus. Not everything that’s going on, the building, everything else. Focused on the tree, right? The iron rod. I think of the saying, “keeping your eyes forward,” I think of Peter, when he is walking on the water for a time with the Savior in Matthew 14. He diverts his glance, looks at the waves and everything that’s going on, and then starts to sink. You go this path and look forward. Don’t look to the side, keep moving forward.

John Bytheway: 05:11 Love it. There’s this verse 18, reminds me of one of my favorite verses in all of scripture. The path of the just that you just said, Lincoln, “is as the shining light that shineth more and more until the perfect day.” Doesn’t that remind you of –

Hank Smith: 05:28 The Doctrine of Covenants.

John Bytheway: 05:28 Of section 50 verse 24, “That which is of God is light. And he that receive light and continueth in God.” That sounds the same as that idea of the stay on the path. “And continueth within God, receiveth more light. And that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.” It’s one of those that I thought, wow, I thought that’d probably be footnoted there because they’re so close, but it isn’t. But that’s one of my favorite verses. I have, probably like you Hank and you Lincoln, a hundred favorite verses. No, this one’s my favorite.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 06:03 Today.

Hank Smith: 06:04 Today that one’s my favorite. That’s my favorite today.

John Bytheway: 06:06 That idea of light growing brighter and brighter and unto the perfect day in Proverbs.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 06:11 And you think the perfect day here, the Hebrew’s are like, the full day. With all the lights out, noon when it’s totally bright and then light is overwhelming. You can see everything.

Hank Smith: 06:22 This is one of those Come Follow Me lessons that you really need to sit down, you and your scriptures and a pen, and really just find what speaks to you. Lincoln, what do you want to focus on next?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 06:33 So much here in 50 and 60. But I think verse one is really key, “A soft answer,” or you could try that as, “a gentle answer or response turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger.” And it’s the disposition one ought to have, right? Be thoughtful in how you speak. The wise do this.

Hank Smith: 06:51 Be gentle. Lincoln, President Hinckley liked this same verse. This is a talk called, “Cornerstones of a Happy Home.” And one of the cornerstones he gives is the soft answer. He said, “The writer of Proverbs long ago declared a soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up to anger. I hear so many complaints from men and women that they cannot communicate with one another. Perhaps I am naive, but I do not understand this. Communication is essentially a matter of conversation. They must have communicated when they were courting. Can they not continue to speak together after marriage? Can they not discuss with one another in an open and frank and candid and happy way their interests, their problems, their challenges, and their desires?”

Hank Smith: 07:35 And he goes on. He says, “There is need for much discipline in marriage, not of one’s companion, but of one’s self. Husbands, wives, remember, he that is slow to anger is better than the mighty.” He quotes another proverb there. “Cultivate the art of the soft answer.”

Hank Smith: 07:49 Isn’t that just a great phrase? “Cultivate the art of the soft answer. It will bless your homes. It will bless your lives. It will bless your companionships. It will bless your children.” I think as a father, probably the times in my life where I’ve felt the worst about my parenting is when I didn’t have a soft answer. I wasn’t gentle, as you said, Lincoln.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 08:12 You can correlate one and 18. And this is also picked up again in James, where he talks about, “Let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.” But again, the Greek word there’s actually anger. “Slow to anger, but swift in hearing.” I sometimes hear, well, we have two ears. So, we should listen twice as much as we speak with one mouth.

Hank Smith: 08:33 I won’t even share with you guys the embarrassing way my mouth has gotten me into trouble over the years. Not listening, but speaking. Or maybe thinking after I speak you ever gotten those out of order? Spoken and then thought about it, when you should probably think about it, then speak.

John Bytheway: 08:48 That’s funny. People sometimes say, “Don’t worry about that person. They don’t have a filter.” And maybe it’s just a break. Not a filter, but just something that slows us down before we answer so quickly. But I just always loved verse 17. “Better is a dinner of herbs where love is,” and this is a contention type thing, “than a stalled ox and hatred there with.” And so, stalled ox must be the steak and potatoes of that day, right? Compared with the salad.

Hank Smith: 09:21 So it’s better to have a salad with someone you love than a nice steak with someone you hate or someone who hates you.

John Bytheway: 09:29 Yeah. These are some of those that as a kid, we enjoyed and laughed at, even.

Hank Smith: 09:34 I’d have a salad with you, John. So did the ancients just keep a quote book? I mean, did they say, “My grandma used to say,” and then they wrote it down? Because some of these, they don’t seem to fit together. They’re just a quote, after a quote, after a quote.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 09:53 You wonder. You have this book of proverbial wisdom. When we get into 16 and really into 22:16, what you’re going to find is they may be more arranged around here what they call the royal section of the Proverbs that has to do more with court values and settings, like we’ll get here in a few verses. And we’ll talk in 10:15 about kings. You will have some thematic units, but yeah, some of the organizing principles, not always discernible.

Hank Smith: 10:20 Yeah. I was going to say, it does feel that way that sometimes you’re just getting a quote, after a quote, after quote. They’re wonderful, but you’re like, what’s going to happen next? There’s not much of a storyline when it comes to Proverbs. This is more, you could search it and find the thought for the day.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 10:35 Well, I guess we’re into 16, “Better is wisdom than gold,” which we’ve seen. Some of these repeat. Acquisition back in three. I do think 18 is a good warning. “Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before the fall.” And just a warning.

Hank Smith: 10:50 This would be a time to go read President Benson’s talk on pride. I remember as a missionary I read that frequently. I probably should read up more as I’m getting older. There’s a funny story of President Hinckley with a man who thought himself was a pretty good speaker. I think of this one often, because it happens to me.

Hank Smith: 11:07 He thought he was a pretty good speaker, and he went up and he just fumbled his way through his talk. And he sat down all sad and disappointed in himself. I don’t know if this is true or not. If it’s not true, it should be. Apparently, President Hinckley said to him, “If you’d gone up the way you came down, you would’ve come down the way you went up.” So, if you would’ve gone up humble, you would’ve come down happy. You went up thinking you were great, and you came down thinking you weren’t so great.

John Bytheway: 11:37 That’s a proverb of President Hinckley.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 11:40 We’re getting to the point now we’re in a ways, we can see some repeating. So, for 20, “Trusting in the Lord, that person is happy.” 25. There’s some roads again. The roads of life, the road of death. 32, your slow to anger. We just talked about that a moment ago. I do like 31, “A hoary head is a crown of glory if it be found in the way of righteousness,” or gray hair.

Hank Smith: 12:01 Is that what that, hoary is a gray head?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 12:03 Yeah. Gray hair. And so, you’re older. Ideally, you should have attained wisdom.

Hank Smith: 12:09 A gray head is a crown of glory. How many of our listeners need to mark that one? Proverbs 16:31. The hoary head. The gray head is a crown of glory. John, do you have any gray?

John Bytheway: 12:20 I think, yeah. My temples. I think that’s what they call them. Right?

Hank Smith: 12:24 I liked 17:17, “A friend loveth at all times.” I’ve had friends like that who have been there for me in dark times, who have come through for me. I could start naming them but I’d forget some. Man, “A friend loveth at all times.” That’s a great one.

John Bytheway: 12:40 I got to go back to 16:32. “He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty.” And then the parallelism, “He that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.” It’s that, are you in control? What would you call it? A self-discipline thing?

Hank Smith: 12:58 Self-control. Self-discipline, yeah.

John Bytheway: 13:00 Yeah. Is better than someone who can take a city, but you’ve got control of your own spirit.

Hank Smith: 13:06 That is good stuff. Lincoln, you’ve mentioned a couple of times here that you want to get to Proverbs 22. Let’s jump in there. What do you want us to see?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 13:13 A few things in here. I think the first verse, obviously, really important. “A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favor rather than silver and gold.” This idea of having a name, or your reputation.

Hank Smith: 13:25 Your reputation is valuable.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 13:27 Having incredibly valuable. And here, it’s contrasting between what the wise do and what the fools do here in the first 16 verses. So, the wise will, they have a good reputation. They have a good name.

Hank Smith: 13:38 The wise will have a good reputation. They’ll care about that.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 13:41 Yeah, it matters to them. Four, “By humility and fear of the Lord are riches, and honor, and life.” It comes through, right? Putting the Lord first. Your priorities. “Seek ye first, the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.” The Lord says, focus on me first. Have your priorities.

Hank Smith: 13:57 “Seek ye first.” That’s Jacob two, isn’t it?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 14:00 I think in the Sermon on the Mount.

Hank Smith: 14:02 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 14:02 Matthew.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 14:02 Matthew six, then, yeah, you have it over in Book of Mormon also. But you start with that, right? Your priorities. In this case, the number one priority is fear of the Lord. It all starts with there. You have reverence, and now you move from there.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 14:13 And we’ve talked about six, already. Training up a child in the way he should go. And when he is old, he will not depart from it. Right? I think probability’s here. Wise words, right? To work with your children, to love them, to educate them. And I think here, you’d say chastise them when need be.

Hank Smith: 14:29 Yeah. Correct them.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 14:30 If you love them, you chastise them. Yes.

Hank Smith: 14:32 Yeah. Lincoln, I don’t think the author wants us to judge other parents with chapter 22, verse six, “Train up a child in the way he should go. When he is old, he will not depart from it.” So I look at John and one of his children, let’s say, isn’t following the Gospel path. I don’t think the writer of Proverbs wants me to look at others and say, “Well, they must have not have done it well,” right? As a parent?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 14:53 No, no. I think it’s probabilities. You do this, and probability will, hopefully you’ll have a good outcome. And of course, in scripture, right, Lehi. I can imagine Lehi was a very good parent. Taught his children. And Nephi says, “I had goodly parents. They taught me.” Didn’t resonate with some of his children. Never gave up. The end of his life, he was still. Well, I would say something like wisdom in the Book of Mormon, right? Second Nephi. He sits down and counsels them at the end, gives them wisdom on what they should do. And so, I think as a parent, you never give up. And you’re trying. So here, it’s just trying to teach them.

Hank Smith: 15:25 I like that. And we can think of plenty of parents who we’d have to put in the failure category if we started saying that the behavior of their children is the way to gauge their success. Samuel, we’ve seen this year, Jacob, Israel we’ve seen this year. You’ve mentioned Lehi. There’d be Alma. Alma the Elder would be in that group. Alma the Younger would be in that group.

John Bytheway: 15:53 And then that whole rising generation. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 15:56 Yeah. Mosiah. King Mosiah.

John Bytheway: 15:57 There’s a story I’ve heard, I don’t have a reference on it, but I think it was President Harold B. Lee that someone said to him, “Hey, the Joneses are having trouble with their children.” And President Lee said, “Yeah. And Heavenly Father’s having trouble with some of his.” And so, we’re all in trouble.

Hank Smith: 16:15 That’s a great story, John. But I do think, Lincoln, you’re right. Training up a child in the way he or she should go is better than not training up a child –

John Bytheway: 16:23 Than not.

Hank Smith: 16:24 In the way.

John Bytheway: 16:25 And I like what Lincoln said, it’s a probability. This is wise council.

Hank Smith: 16:28 In fact, I have a tree outside that needs to be staked. And I told my son, “If we don’t get that tree staked right now, it’s going to start growing how the wind blows it over.” And I think I’m going to turn it into a lesson now, from Proverbs 22:6. I’m going to go out and say, “Let’s train this tree in the way it should go while it’s,” what’d you say Lincoln? It’s because right now it’s malleable. But if I let that tree grow –

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 16:52 If it stiffens and hardens, then it’s much more difficult.

Hank Smith: 16:55 Yeah. Much more easy to work with wet cement, right, than dry.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 17:00 Interesting you bring that up. Because when I think about humility, we talked a lot humility, I think of the word meek. Meekness. Because one of the meaning, yeah, meekness, lowly. But the root meaning of meekness is fashionable. And what it means by fashionable, meaning you can actually fashion it. You can mold it. That’s a sense of meekness. It can be molded still. If you’re meek, you can be molded. You can be worked with. You don’t break.

Hank Smith: 17:24 I like that. We just don’t want any parent listening to go, “I should have done better.” If we could even apply a lesson we’ve already learned from Lincoln today, which is look forward. Trust in the Lord. He’s their savior. If you have a child you feel like is off the path, trust that the Lord is mighty to save, and let him direct your path in what you should do. Go to the Lord, ask him. What do I do with this child?

John Bytheway: 17:48 Yeah. Lincoln brought up Lehi and Sariah. And I just love that the Book Mormon starts out with a family that has problems. It’s not perfect. They struggle, and there’s ups and downs. And they’re in the wilderness and they’re having more children. And Lehi has to sit down with Jacob and say, “You’ve never seen Jerusalem. You’ve seen the rudeness of your brothers.” And it gives him a perfect chance to explain opposition in all things.

John Bytheway: 18:14 And I think it was President Boyd K. Packer who gave this talk back in 92 about, he called it our moral environment. And he said that judging parents by how their children turned out would only be just if we lived in a perfectly moral environment. And that is not now possible. He became a moral environmentalist in that talk. It was a really helpful, helpful talk.

John Bytheway: 18:38 And also, Hank, as we brought up, section 46. “We’ll be judged suiting his mercies.” What does the Lord say? “Suiting his mercies, according to the conditions of the children of men.” That one gives me hope too. Book of Mormon starts out with a family with all sorts of ups and downs, and the Lord’s going to suit his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. So hold on to those for some hope.

Hank Smith: 19:01 And remember the Lord is mighty to save. This wouldn’t say trust in the Lord if you couldn’t trust in him. You can trust him. There’s nothing your child can do that falls outside where the Lord says, “I did not see that coming.” The Lord, the great Jehovah. What did Joseph Smith say? Contemplated it at all and has made ample provision for the redemption of all people. Lincoln, let’s keep going in 22. What else do you want to see?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 19:27 We’ve covered a lot of these. Well, that’s funny. 13. “The slothful man,” or the lazy, right, “Man sayeth, there is a lion without. I shall be slain in the streets.” It’s like you give these absurd excuses for not doing something. And that’s what they do. The dog ate my homework. This is what the ancient, “dog ate my homework,” is. I can’t go and do something, because there might be a lion out there. It might kill me.

Hank Smith: 19:49 There’s a lion out there. I might die. I am going to use that.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 19:54 I thought, I got to throw this in here. Lighten the mood a little bit.

Hank Smith: 19:57 That is funny. I’m going to use that. The next time I get asked, Sarah will say, “Hey, take the trash out.” And I’ll say, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. There is a lion out there.”

John Bytheway: 20:07 There could be a lion out there. I am not taking the garbage out.

Hank Smith: 20:11 I will be slain in the streets. Are you crazy? So, this is the lazy man coming up with a reason why he can’t work. I’d never seen that one before.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 20:21 I love it. I thought it’d be a comical one to throw out. But what’s interesting, get into 17, and you actually get a shift now in the Proverbs. So, it says, “Bow down thine ear and hear the words of the wise.” I think it’s saying, there’s really an authorial shift now. We’re going to hear from now the wise people.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 20:40 And what’s interesting is if you go down and you go to verse 20, look what it has here. “Have not I written to the excellent things in councils and knowledge.” Now just a note on this, it says excellent things, but a better reading that’s been reconstructed now from the Hebrew is not excellent things, but in fact something to the extent of, “Have I not written to thee 30 things.” It’s sheloshim.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 21:07 In fact, in the Greek and the Latin, it talks about being threefold. And so the Greek and Latin translation’s already getting to this. It seems to be widely recognized now for the last century of who are these wise. When you start going through this, there’s a number of parallels here and some really quite close to, I said before, there’s this Egyptian wisdom text by a man called Amenemope.

Hank Smith: 21:30 Amenemope.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 21:31 Yeah, Amenemope. Lived as best we can tell during the Ramseed period, sometime about 1300 to 1100. And there was a papyrus found, but had in 30 chapters, “The Wise Sayings of Amenemope to his Son.” Wisdom literature.

Hank Smith: 21:47 Wow.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 21:48 And when you start reading that, you’ll see that it seems to be that as they redact this, they bring in that wisdom and they include this here. It’s 30 sayings. And this goes in through chapter 24. For example, you go to 22, “Rob not the poor because he is poor, neither oppress the afflicted in the gate.” And in chapter two of Amenemope it says, “Beware of robbing the poor and oppressing the afflicted.” There’s other parallels that people can find that I think there’s too much there to be a coincidence for it not to be a relationship. There.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 22:20 Some people might be troubled. “Oh my goodness. Why is Proverbs relying on some Egyptian wisdom?” I guess I would say, well, the Egyptians can be wise, by all means. And I look at this as, for me here’s would be a response for some of this material is section 88:118. And look what it says here. I’ll just pick up partway through the verse.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 22:39 “Seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom,” right? Wisdom. “Yea, seek out of the best books, words of wisdom. Seek learning even by studying also by faith.” And so, as I see this, I think they are picking up on some Egyptian wisdom. You already have Solomon, right, interaction, right, early on Israel with Egypt. And so I think it’s interesting picking up on, hey, there’s other wisdom out there. There’s the quote unquote, “best books in the ancient world.”

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 23:06 Well, as Israelites, we can draw on and use some of that. Maybe adapt it a little bit to this. If we think about wisdom. Yeah. There’s good books out there. What can we use that we can go in and will help us be wise. Lord actually gives this commandment. And so that’s how I look at this interesting section where I think it’s pretty clear. There’s talk about, here’s some Egyptian wisdom now that we’re going to draw upon, but we can adapt it. And there’s a lot of good benefit from it.

Hank Smith: 23:28 I like that a lot. I love this, Lincoln. It reminds me of a statement from the first presidency way back in February of 1978. For anybody who’s a little bit nervous that the Book of Proverbs is borrowing from this Egyptian sage, Amenemope, listen to this. Quote, “The great religious leaders of the world, such as Mohamed, Confucius, and the reformers, as well as philosophers, including Socrates, Plato and others received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

Hank Smith: 24:03 And then this statement, I’m not reading the whole thing, but this piece reads like an article of faith. “We believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation.” So, I think this is right in line with what you’re talking about here, Lincoln.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 24:21 Yeah. I think there’s some wisdom of the age that could be useful. That Israelites can come and use. And so, they’re consulting some of the best books of their own day.

Hank Smith: 24:30 I think this is fantastic, Lincoln, that you’ve made that connection with Proverbs 22. We still have a few more chapters to go Lincoln, what do you want to cover?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 24:39 We got 31, I guess. So that’s the one, Come Follow Me, the last chapter?

John Bytheway: 24:42 Yeah. We better do that.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 24:44 Yes. Well, 31, it’s a really fascinating chapter. So 30 and 31, interesting chapters, because here it’s clear there are two individuals that we don’t know much about. You have the words of Agar in 30, but we’re going to look at 31. Here it’s the words of King Lemuel. And this is fascinating.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 25:02 Who is Lemuel? Some have thought, the name in Hebrew means to or for God. So maybe it’s some kind of cipher for Solomon. I don’t think that’s probably the case. And it talks about here, it says, “the prophecy that his mother taught him.” And again, in verse one, we have this word for prophecy. Is thisword here that’s being used, and it’s Massa.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 25:27 And so some try to say it wasn’t a prophecy, really more like anoracle or pronouncement. So some will say, well, this is the words, King Lemuel, the pronouncement that his mother taught him. So she taught something wise. Or another way it is read is, of King Lemuel, and then you have a prophecy, but it’s Massa as a place. So it’d be the words of King Lemuel of Massa.

Hank Smith: 25:47 Wow.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 25:48 And Massa, if you go back into Genesis 25:14 or 1 Chronicles 1:30, this is a descendant of Ishmael. And so it’s this territory in Arabia. And so some have wondered, is this a king? Some said, well, maybe it’s a king in Arabia in the eighth, seventh century BC, which is also interesting. And again, if that is the best reading here on this.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 26:10 It’s fascinating, by the way, just as a footnote here, the word Lemuel only appears in the Old Testament twice, verse one, verse four. And so if you have a king in Arabia in the eighth or seventh century BC, and then we have a Lemuel popping up in the Book of Mormon, I find that fascinating with Lehi and that onomastic reference there. But the timing is right. So if that is the case, but again, no one really knows for sure who this Lemuel is.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 26:36 I would probably say most are leaning toward, well, it’s probably a king somewhere in Arabia, but again has wise counsel. Right? There’s best books. Has some good things his mother taught him. And so his mother’s now teaching him, okay, when you’re a king, this is what you ought to do and not do.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 26:54 And when you get down to verse two, “What my son, what the son of my womb, and what the son of my vows,” the Hebrew there is ma or what, but I think the force of it is better like, “No, my son, no son of my womb,” like, N-O. “No, son of my vows.” Saying no, don’t do these things.

Hank Smith: 27:12 Okay.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 27:13 And then she gives strength about what not to do. And says, well, as a king, well, here’s what I don’t want you to do. Well, first of all, don’t give all your strength to women. We can think here, right, well, Solomon, for example. As wise as he was, you read back in one Kings 11, concubines and women were his downfall. So his mom’s saying, okay, don’t do this. Son, I think another good advice, don’t give yourself over to drink. I think we can think of a lot of examples of royalty or kings getting too much involved in drink.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 27:45 I think of Book of Mormon, right? King Noah. Mosiah 11. This is what he does. So she’s saying no, avoid this. It’ll be a real temptation for you in this position, but do not do this. Don’t do this. Don’t get involved, spend your energy on all these things or on drink.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 28:01 She does say some rather interesting advice though here, about, well give it to the poorest. They can forget their problems. But you don’t touch it. You need to judge. Which is, okay, there’s some wisdom, right? 2700 years old. Eight and nine, again, you’re given power. And judge righteously, especially over the poor and needy. And so some really sage counsel from his mother.

Hank Smith: 28:21 Plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 28:23 And this is the responsibility as a king to go and do this. And so you have this council to start here, and then you get into 10. And this is where we have this talk on the ideal woman. I think it’s the wisdom, but it’s actually a woman here. What is the real woman like? The ideal woman?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 28:43 So if you look at 10, “Who can find a virtuous woman, for her price is far above rubies.” And it says, virtuous here, what’s interesting here. If you go to the word underlying this, a better rendering here, I would say, is, “strong,” or, “capable.” Who can find a strong or capable woman? Finally we get the word virtue. Well, the King James translators are here influenced by Latin, right, vertus. It actually means strong in the original meaning going from Latin.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 29:11 And so it’s saying, who can find a strong or capable woman. In fact, even a meaning here, a sense of, a woman who’s like a soldier. This is what it is. And it will start now telling you what this woman is. As it goes through the ideal woman, ends then with, well, she fears the Lord. As we saw back in one seven.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 29:29 But there’s something even more interesting here in this section, beginning in 10, down to 31. What you have here if you look at the Hebrew, is you have an acrostic. And what an acrostic is in Hebrew, it’s where each verse begins with a letter of the alphabet and it goes in succession for all 22 letters, starting with alef and then ending at the end with tav.

Hank Smith: 29:58 That’s the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet and the last, Alef, Tav. Yeah, Lincoln, just point these out. So chapter 10 starts with the letter …

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 30:03 So verse 10, it begins with the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet.

Hank Smith: 30:08 Which is?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 30:11 Alef. Think of –

Hank Smith: 30:11 Like alpha.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 30:12 Yeah, like alpha in Greek. And then each successive verse through the end starts with the next letter.

Hank Smith: 30:18 And there’s 22 total.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 30:20 22 total. And so it goes through. You have acrostics in Psalms, for example, where they’ll do this. And typically it’s trying to say, this thing encompasses it all. Right. If you think back New Testament, “I am alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.” Alpha the first in the Greek, omega is the last Greek letter. So it’s saying, this woman is everything. This is it all.

Hank Smith: 30:42 Interesting.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 30:43 We talk about, right, alpha males. Well, here is our alef female. But she’s even more than a alef female. She’s an alef female. And so it’s putting this emphasis on here that this pattern that you don’t see in the English, it’s not mentioned here, but it’s not accidental, this is going on. And so it’s really saying, this is the utmost. She encompasses it all.

John Bytheway: 31:03 I love this. This is one of those places where there’s things that are hidden in plain sight that you do not see if it’s in English, but if you saw it in Hebrew and you knew the Hebrew alphabet, you would see that. So it’s like, A is for her altruisticness. B is for her benevolence. C is for her charity. D is for her delightfulness. And you don’t know that because we’re not reading it in Hebrew, but it lets you know there’s more here than, just let’s think of a random bunch of traits. It was something that was really worked on.

Hank Smith: 31:34 That’s awesome.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 31:35 Yeah. I mentioned earlier. There’s really not many JSTs in Proverbs, but it’s interesting. Listen, the JST’s not here, but the one JST that actually is the most meaningful in all of Proverbs is back in Proverbs 18:22, which reads, “Whoso findeth a wife, findeth a good thing and obtaineth favor of the Lord.”

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 31:53 And the JST actually says, here it changes, says, “Who so findeth a good wife hath obtained favor of the Lord.” It actually changes this. And I think here, when you get to this time, you say, here is the ideal wife. Idealized woman, what you’re looking for. And of course, she’ll have the fear of the Lord and wisdom. All the things she does in her household. And so really saying, yeah, her price is far above rubies.

John Bytheway: 32:16 I want you to say that phrase again. And it’s an acrostic poem, A-C-R-O-S-T-I-C.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 32:22 Yep. Acrostic. And what you have here, right, in this acrostic, stichos in Greek is a line and acro is the top or beginning of a line. So each beginning of a verse starts with a successive letter and it goes all the way through the alphabet. And so it’s saying, there’s something important going on here, but it’s imputing this, yeah, I think that everything. This woman encapsulates everything, all the letters of the alphabet. She’s the all in all.

Hank Smith: 32:45 Was this still going to King Lemuel, or did this start a new section that wasn’t part of what his mother had given him?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 32:53 Well, this seems here, right, the words of King Lemuel, it just goes on. So it seems that he’s saying the question, who can find this woman? Who can find this capable woman? Well, this is what she’s like.

Hank Smith: 33:03 This is great.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 33:05 You’ll quickly see, right, what does she do? Well, she is industrious. Her lights never go out. Of course, this is idealized. Verse 18. “She layeth her hands to the spindle and the distaff.” So spinning yarn, doing this. And that’s interesting, because you have to find ancient epitaphs, when they have depictions of women, they’ll often be holding a spindle on a distaff. Because this is what they’ll say for a woman who was very respectable. If you’re really trained in this, well, then you’re really the ideal woman who can manage your oikos in Greek, your household, well. And she stretches her hands to the poor. She gives to the needy. 21:20, “She clothes her family in clothes,” right? They’re scarlet and purple. Well, these are actually royal colors.

John Bytheway: 33:45 And her husband’s the elder’s quorum president in verse 23.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 33:48 There we go. And her husband’s known to the gates. He’s sitting there talking. She has strength and it says honor or splendor. And when she speaks, what does she have? Well, there it is. She has wisdom. 26. She has that.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 34:00 And so I think in the Book of Proverbs, it talks about young man, young man, young men. Well, women are here, but it’s very clear. Note, wisdom is for the woman as it is for the man. It can be acquired by both.

Hank Smith: 34:11 That’s fantastic. John, what were you going to add?

John Bytheway: 34:14 I also think if you’re not careful, you may read this as a woman and say, “Oh my goodness, I can’t possibly live up to this.” And that’s not what we want to happen either. It’s just a wonderful list of desirable traits. None of us are going to live up to the list, but these are some great ideals. They just happen to be in the order of the Hebrew alphabet.

Hank Smith: 34:36 This is President Uchtdorf in a talk “In Praise of Those Who Save”. He says, “And now, just one word to those of our single brethren who followed the deception that they first have to find the perfect woman before they can enter into serious courting or marriage. My beloved brethren, may I remind you, if there were a perfect woman, do you really think she would be that interested in you? In God’s plan of happiness, we are not so much looking for someone perfect, but for a person with whom throughout a lifetime, we can join efforts to create a loving, lasting and more perfect relationship. That is the goal.” So John, that was just a funny reminder of what President Uchtdorf said.

John Bytheway: 35:18 And now we get to go to the book of Ecclesiastes. And I have always wondered what that means, because we talk about ecclesiastical leaders and things like that. What does the word mean before we jump into it? It says Ecclesiastes, or, the preacher in the old Testament.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 35:36 Well, that’s a good question. And when you get this word Ecclesiastes, what we’re getting here is we’re getting the title of the Greek translation of the Hebrew work, where they take this word in Hebrew kohelet, which is translated as preacher, and the Greek comes along and say, well, this is an Ecclesiastes, which is basically, “one who assembles.”

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 35:58 And if you think about ecclesia, our church. Well in Greek, the word ecclesia, it can mean church, but even before Christians start calling things churches, an ecclesia is just an assembly. And so what an Ecclesiastes is is somebody who assembles things. And so it seems to be here, it’s one who is assembling material together. We talk about Proverbs, it’s assembled together. And now this also is assembled together. Because not unlike Proverbs, this work is not linear in a number of ways. It ebbs and flows, and topics are treated in one sense, then stopped, and then picked up again a few chapters later.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 36:33 And so this is where you’re getting this word Ecclesiastes from, somebody who convenes an assembly, or in this case is assembling material. So it would fit with a preacher, but something like an assembler. The one who goes and brings all this work together.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 36:48 And not unlike Proverbs, there’ll be some aphorisms, but there are some more sustained, certainly sections here at multiverse. But it’ll approach wisdom and a life a little bit differently. Whereas Proverbs is about probabilities of, what you do this, good will happen. This will say, well, you may do what’s best. And there are no guarantees. Or they’re not nearly as many guarantees, or the probability, actually, is not quite as high.

Hank Smith: 37:13 So life is more complex than you think.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 37:15 Yes. It’s interesting about this text, because we know the rabbis were debating its cannonicity. Is this really scripture? Because I read it and said, does this really fit in scripture? And it’s already in there. But because the way it reads, yet, some traditionally had wondered that very thing. Today it’s actually read in Judaism. They’ll read it during the Feast of Tabernacles.

Hank Smith: 37:38 What’s the overall message of the book, Lincoln?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 37:40 The phrase that will appear most, as you see, verse two, “vanity of vanities.” To some other translations. The word here in Hebrew is this word, hevel, which means breath. And so it’s literally breath of breaths. But what you’re getting at, I would say, is something like it’s ephemeral.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 38:01 If I were going to say, what is the overarching motif of this book? What happens? And there’s this phrase, “under the sun,”i.e. immortality, and under the sun appears about 30 times is, it’s ephemeral. It will not last. I think the author’s aware of this and says he did all these things, and they won’t last. And so what I would take looking at this book in a positive light, especially in light of the epilogue is, keep your trust in the Lord.

Hank Smith: 38:26 He is not.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 38:27 He’s not. He’s permanent. He’s not fleeting, but this life is ephemeral. You’ll notice a number of times, for example, in 1:14, talk about the vexation of spirit. This is how the KJV rendering is done. Others render this as, this word spirit in Hebrew is ruach, which can also be wind or breath or air. And so a lot of times actually rendered as, everything is vanity. And they’ll say, this is basically chasing the wind, right? You’re not going to get it. It’s transitory.

Hank Smith: 38:55 So the book starts out with fleeting, fleeting. Everything is fleeting. Why even try?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 39:04 Things are ephemeral. Therefore, we’ll talk about in chapter two, enjoy those things you can while here. Because you do not know how the end may come. In some ways it will say God’s purposes are inscrutable, meaning we can’t ultimately figure out why some things happen, why they don’t. So enjoy your time while you’re here.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 39:24 But I wouldn’t take this to the form of hedonism. We’ll just eat, drink, and be merry. Tomorrow, we die. You get in the Book of Mormon, “Enjoy your time here because you do not know what tomorrow holds. It will be short.” And I think with the epilogue, it frames it then, well ultimately just trust in God. Even if things don’t work out in here, keep your trust in God. Tie that back to Proverbs.

Hank Smith: 39:45 So is chapter one basically, life goes by, day after day goes by, what profit hath a man of all his labor, which he taketh under the sun. It’s all fleeting. I think human beings have felt this before. Why am I on this planet? So, what’s next Lincoln? After chapter one is life is fleeting.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 40:04 I think 3:11, it’s they’re just round the sunset. The sea never gets full. The rivers pour into that. And so I think it’s just pointing out that it’s hard to discern. We like a linear goal- oriented thing, right? Going back again to Deuteronomy 11, you’ll be blessed if you do this, you’ll be cursed if you do this.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 40:19 And I think it’s saying that you sometimes look at things and it’s not altogether clear why it is the way it is. And from our perspective, we may not be able to see any pattern in it. As you go down to 11. I think it’s interesting. “There is no remembrance of former things. Neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.” What you do is fleeting.

Hank Smith: 40:42 Everyone forgets. It’s forgotten.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 40:44 And that’s why I like, we talked about you don’t remember things. Or keep records.

Hank Smith: 40:48 So he’s noticing that once someone dies, they’re forgotten.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 40:52 They are eventually forgotten. This emptiness, this vanity or futility. And so picking up on that. And then you get an autobiographical section from early 12 to 18. “I, the preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.” Now that’s interesting. Doesn’t actually call himself Solomon. He says in the past tense, “I was the king.” And so it wonders, tradition does put this to Solomon, but who?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 41:14 He says, look, I went and I sought after wisdom in all kinds of ways. He goes, he seeks after wisdom when he was the king. And he talked about, well, it is like a vexing spirit. So it was like chasing after wind. I could never grasp it. And you get down to17. He said, “I gave my heart to know wisdom and to know

madness,” Here I think we might say, even revelry might be a good translation here, “and folly. I perceive that this is also a vexatious,” or like chasing wind, “for in much wisdom is much grief. And he that increaseth knowledge, increaseth sorrow.”

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 41:51 Which I think is, again, an interesting concept. It’s going to take some work to get wisdom, but also you’re going to get grief in this process. The wisdom, it’s hard earned, but just think of this mortality. Think about God says, yeah, go to earth, have this mortal experience. You’re going to learn a lot, get a lot of wisdom. But yeah, it’s going to be a lot of grief. It’s going to be hard. You’re going to get joy. You’ll get a lot of joy, but it’s going to be a hard process. And I think he’s saying this in a way, in life you’ll grow, but it’s hard. More wisdom isn’t all just a wonderful thing. It’ll come with pain and suffering and at a cost.

Hank Smith: 42:23 Interesting. Is he saying that wisdom comes with grief in that grief I became wise?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 42:31 Yeah. As I think about this grief or sorrow, think of Moses 5:11, right? With Eve. Where it says “Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad saying, ‘Were it not for our transgression, we never should have had seed. And there should have known good and evil. And the joy of our redemption, eternal life, which God giveth unto all the obedient.'” Yeah. I think acquisition comes at a cost.

Hank Smith: 42:53 It’s similar to Hebrews five. “Though he was a son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered.” So grief and wisdom come together. I don’t like that.

John Bytheway: 43:07 So I like your 2 Nephi 2 reference, Lincoln, because there’s opposition in all things, but it’s part of the learning process. And so we have the, “Adam fell that men might be, men are that they might have joy.” And we love that verse, but there’s also Moses 6:48 days, where it says, “And he said unto them because that Adam fell, we are. And by his fall came misery. And he said unto them because that Adam fell, we are. And by his fall came death. And we are made partakers of misery and woe”. So it’s some days there’s joy days, and there’s misery and woe days. And that’s the learning. That’s the laboratory of opposition and all things, right?

Hank Smith: 43:45 Much wisdom comes with much grief. I can see why there’s a bit of a pessimistic attitude here.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 43:56 To really have wisdom and know, you experience both.

John Bytheway: 43:59 That’s a really good point to bring up. We have a life of total ease and comfort. It sounds appealing, but we might not learn much. It wouldn’t stretch our souls very much.

Hank Smith: 44:10 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 44:11 I remember, I think it was Brother Truman Madsen that said, when you truly come to love someone, you’ve doubled your capacity for pain. And I thought, well, that’s strange. But what he meant was, then you suffer their joys. I mean, you experience their joys with them, but you can also experience their sadness when they’re sad. And every parent knows that.

John Bytheway: 44:30 My family were watching a video the other night, a church video called, “One on One.” It was about this brother named Troy Russell who lost his son. Really unfortunate accident. And how he was just pleading with the Lord one night to take away all of this pain. And he got this just really profound answer.

John Bytheway: 44:51 The Lord said, “I could take away the pain, but I’d also have to take away the nine years you enjoyed with your son. Or you can have the nine years you had with your son, but you’ll also have the pain.” And he made the comment, this brother, that he would prefer to keep that all, which was just amazing to watch.

John Bytheway: 45:13 Really one of those really super sobering things, but how wonderful to have an eternal perspective of the whole thing. And I guess that’s what we’re talking about today in these books.

Hank Smith: 45:25 Yeah. Ecclesiastes one, “For in much wisdom is much grief.” I can’t tell you I like that Lincoln. I can’t tell you that I think that’s a great way to go.

John Bytheway: 45:37 That’s my favorite verse.

Hank Smith: 45:39 Yeah, man.

John Bytheway: 45:40 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 45:41 Lincoln, this has been a fantastic day going through these two books. I think our listeners would be interested in your journey of education. Oxford graduate, all these different degrees, and being a faithful Latter-day Saint. What’s that journey been like for you?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 45:56 It’s had ups and downs. I think staying on the path and looking forward, trusting in the Lord. For me, I tie in a little bit of Ecclesiastes. Having joy with where you’re at. I look at the last two chapters of seizing the day. Carpe diem, right? Living in the day, finding joy in that, I think for me is how I’ve done this.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 46:18 And what’s most meaningful, especially in light of what we’ve talked about. Certainly in Ecclesiastes with things that are ephemeral. A really defining event in my life took place as a young man when I was a senior in high school. Played a lot of sports, played at baseball. Played on a rep team and up in Canada and made it to the tournament that was basically the national championship tournament.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 46:39 In our first game, I was a center fielder. We were playing. In about the second inning there was a rain delay. There was some rain. We all ran back into the dugout. Rain ended, right, ran back onto the field. And I was warming up with the left fielder, throwing a baseball. And out of the blue, there was just a large crack. And I was blown back, and I was on my back. And I was like, what just happened?

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 46:59 And I looked over and the person I was playing catch with who was a good friend of mine had been struck by lightning and was actually killed instantaneously when he was hit by lightning. And I remember seeing total pandemonium break out at the field. I saw this poor young man, his dad came out on the field was totally distraught. And people trying to help. Waiting for an ambulance to come. Minutes seemed like hours.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 47:22 And in the aftermath, that whole event, you’re a senior in high school, you do feel immortal. You feel like, well, life’s never going to end. And coming back to Ecclesiastes, life is transitory. That’s the one thing I think I learned at a young age, where I thought, well, I’m immortal. No, life will have an end, and it may be sooner than you think. And in some really bizarre circumstances.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 47:44 And coming out of that whole circumstance, what comforted me the most of anything, if the one thing I held onto that helped me the most was the Gospel. It’s permanent. It’s not transitory. It’s going to be there in really, really tough times. And so that was a really defining moment in my life. And of course after that event, it was like, well, what’s the most important thing I could do? Well, I need to go serve a mission. Because I saw how that helped me and how friends on the team who didn’t have a belief system really, really struggled.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 48:14 And I struggled too. You can’t go through that and not struggle somewhat. But for me it made me think how important the Gospel was and the permanence of that. So that was a defining moment in my life where I’m like, we don’t know when the end’s coming, but let me make the most of what I have while I’m here.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 48:31 In that moment, in your sorrows, your struggle is you really come to know God. And so for me, while some may be challenged with things they read or hear, for me that hasn’t had the same effect on me. Where I have questions, but my testimony’s only grown. And yes, as it continues to grow, yes, can you have questions. I try to answer them. But just have really an abiding faith in the Gospel. This is permanent. It’s something I can really rely on.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 48:58 I can trust in the Lord. I really, really can. No matter what comes, I can get through it. And so for me, that’s defined my life and help me with what I’ve done. And really my scholarship and as I try to be disciple of Christ. And so when challenges come, I’m like, no, I’m going to stand fast and remain firm.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 49:16 And in fact if we have time I’ll just share one other brief story. Last couple of years, really, I think everybody did, right, the last two years with COVID had some really tough times. And personally, some real big challenges. And I remember where again, just knowing the Lord was there for me.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 49:31 I took my daughters out. We were going back to the Olympic peninsula last July. And driving out and just going through a hard time. Again, valleys in life. There’s hills, there’s peaks. Tough time. I just pulled over the car at this rest stop in the middle of nowhere in Oregon. Didn’t have to use the restroom.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 49:49 I just said, “Girls, I need to take a break.” Was feeling overwhelmed. I said, “Girls, let’s go get some candy at the vending machines. I’m just going to go and sit down over there’s picnic tables there, things like that. I remember walking to the picnic tables being like, “God, I need some help. I really, really need some help.”

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 50:04 And I remember just saying, “I really need your help.” And I remember getting there and sitting down at the picnic table, and lo and behold in the middle of nowhere, somebody left a copy of the Book of Mormon. Some missionaries left it there. And I said, “Okay, God, I got the message.” And I’m like, this can’t be a coincidence. The middle of nowhere, I just stopped and went out and behold, there’s a Book of Mormon.

Dr. Lincoln Blumell: 50:23 Of course I took it. I have it. And I really treasure that. And so for me, just knowing that even in really hard things you can trust in God. So going back, you can really trust. Keep the commandments. You don’t know where your journey’s going to go at times. Look forward. Yet you move forward with faith. I’ve had these experiences where I know God’s there watching and helping me. And for me that really trumps anything else.

Hank Smith: 50:46 Excellent. Wow. Both of those experiences. Those are, man. Thank you so much, Dr. Blumell, Lincoln. This has been a wonderful day studying these two books with you. John, I’ve said it before, but I don’t know how we got this job. It’s a good job.

John Bytheway: 51:03 I know. It’s just a great, those last stories. Some things are permanent, some are transitory. And to have that book there, that here’s your answer. That’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 51:14 Beautiful.

John Bytheway: 51:15 Thank you.

Hank Smith: 51:16 We want to thank Dr. Lincoln Blummel for being with us today. We want to thank all of you for joining us. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we hope all of you will join us next week. We’ll be back with another episode of followHIM.