Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Professor Lori Denning, Colossians.

Lori Denning: 00:07 There is another fantastic letter with yet another poem. What I want to do now is Colossians. This is one of the shorter letters. It’s also what we call a prison letter. So, let’s do a little context to find out why Paul’s in prison yet again. A little bit different is Colossae.

  00:23 So, this is a little bit unique in that it’s a short letter. These are all fairly short. I know we’re making them sound like they’re long, but you can read them in about two minutes. But Colossae is in what we would call modern day Turkey, and it’s the central and it used to be a really big city, but it is quite small at this point. And even today if you go, it’s just vineyards. There’s not even a building still standing in Colossae today.

  00:49 Paul never went there personally and he didn’t start the church there. He gets a letter from a guy Epaphras, we’ll call him Epi. He’s from there and he’s a member, and he comes and visits Paul in prison and he’s like, “Hey, Paul, I want to tell you the good news about these members that you’ve never heard of, but they’re doing so great, but they’re little, tiny, tiny, tiny.”

  01:10 Now, there hasn’t been a lot of excavation there, but we think there were about maybe three big homes and you could maybe fit 15 people in each home. That’s less than 50 people. This is a very small branch, and they are on their own. They don’t have a big town. It’s interesting though, that Paul’s going to take the time, so he hears from a native son that comes and meets him in prison. He’s in prison again.

  01:34 Again, sometimes, they’ll say he’s in Rome because we know he was in Rome for a long time. But it might’ve been Ephesus, which isn’t as far 100 miles. Here’s a report about what’s going on there. One thing you should do, one thing we’re going to notice, he is so excited to talk to them and talk about the wonder and the excitement, and the thrill of being a new church, of joining the church for the first time.

  02:03 This is a letter for all of us when we’re like, “I remember my convert days. I remember being a missionary. I remember when I sang the song of redeeming love,” right? Alma 5. So, I remember when I had those moments and Paul is so excited to share those with this little tiny church that he’s never been to. This is the letter to Colossae.

  02:25 One thing in Colossians or any of his letters that we remember is that a lot of times it has a pattern. One thing it helps me is understanding the structure. It usually has the little intro, sometimes called The Prayer or The Thanksgiving, and that’s the I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents. And then, the other structure is often this. He’s going to do half of the letter on theology, meaning heavy doctrine, big points, big concepts, teach them something. And then, the second half is application.

  02:54 If you’re doing this in your own study and you’re like, “How am I supposed to put this with my family?” You can understand that structure, and as you understand the structure you can say big doctrine, big application. He’s going to do the same thing. In the first half, he’s going to try to talk about some big ideas.

  03:09 Now, these people, here’s that theme again coming in, if you were a new member or we remember when we were new or we’ve been less practicing in our lives and we’re coming back and we’re feeling that new life little congregation of new converts and Paul is so excited to tell them, but they’re not really sure how they’re supposed to do this new life in Christ.

  03:32 What am I supposed to do? How is this supposed to work? He is going to teach them about how to do that. But I think there are times when we all feel a little bit new or we don’t feel like we fit in, and there’s this weird feeling like you’re the only person that doesn’t get it, but let me let everybody in on a secret. We all feel like that. We all feel a little bit like the imposter. We all feel a little bit like I’m not as good as sister so-and-so and I’m not as great as speaker as so-and-so. I don’t know scriptures like so-and-so.

  03:59 Let me just disabuse you all of this idea. You do not need to know ancient languages to understand the scripture. You do not need to know everything to be a good member of the church. What do you need? Faith, repentance, baptism. We already have those things. You just come with what you brung. If you’ve ever felt like that, this letter is for you.

  04:20 So, let’s jump in and find out what he has to say. Let’s do 1:3-8, John, do you still have your other versions so that you could read Colossians 1:3-8? It’s actually not very long.

John Bytheway: 04:38 Colossians 1:3-8, in the new international version, we always thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ when we pray for you, because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love you have for all the saints, the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel that has come to you. All over the world, this gospel is bearing fruit and growing just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.

Lori Denning: 05:16 This is again a letter to the New Church. What’s interesting here is, he’s going to include them in the greater community of Zion, the greater saints, all the church. And I love the way he says it. Again, we’re going to use this funny metaphor of fruit. He says, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it, and truly understood God’s grace. I love this idea that sometimes we feel like we’re alone. Sometimes, we feel like we’re the only one that get it or we’re not really sure. And I think, we’ve all lived in places where we really are kind of by ourselves as members.

  05:57 He says, “Look, good news. It’s doing the same thing that it’s been doing. It’s growing just like it’s growing in you. It’s growing all around the world.” I love the idea that the church is something international. We often hear it’s like, “Well, people are not really excited about institutional religion.” And Paul is saying the opposite. Paul is saying, “It is still growing, and it’s growing just like it happens in you and it’s happening everywhere.”

Hank Smith: 06:22 Excellent. And Lori, I think he even says that, again, in verse 12, “Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to the partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.” We’re all entitled to this inheritance and we’re all part of this group called the saints.

Lori Denning: 06:41 That’s powerful, isn’t it? I think we live in a very individualistic society. We focus on ourselves on what we’re going to do and how we’re going to achieve. And anciently, it wasn’t true and it really isn’t today, although we fool ourselves that it is. But we’re part of this bigger community. Out there is this community of saints, this community of people that believe and are striving just like you are and is like, it’s your inheritance.

  07:04 Don’t forget that you’re part of something bigger, and I love the idea that we’re part of something bigger anciently, and in the future across time, not just around the world. We’re reading this 2000-year-old text and I’m like, “Yeah, that’s just like me.” And hopefully, some thousand years from now someone’s reading ours and going, “You know, that story is, Hank, that is really profound. That is just like me.”

Hank Smith: 07:27 Don’t feel like you don’t belong because you’re part of the inheritance of the saints.

Lori Denning: 07:32 Let’s jump over then on that same idea because he’s going to introduce as we become this new people as we’re learning how to do all this. He’s going to go in chapter two, and I want to run to six and seven, and he’s going to tell us kind of what we do.

Hank Smith: 07:48 Okay, I’ll go back to the KJV. “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him: Rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as ye have been taught abounding therein with thanksgiving.”

Lori Denning: 08:03 I love this. As ye therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk ye in Him. This is now your new life. This is the way you’re going to get out there, and you’re now a new person. You walk in Him. If I’m thinking this is a new life and I’m thinking I’m learning how to do this differently, and I’m with this community of saints, what is walk in Christ?

Hank Smith: 08:29 I think it’s answered down below, do what he would do, strive too anyway. Elder Uchtdorf brought up this verse, Colossians 2:6, his question is how do we become true disciples of Jesus Christ? And then, he says, “The Savior himself provided the answer with a profound declaration: “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” This is the essence of what it means to be a true disciple. Those who receive Christ Jesus walk with him. That’s the Colossians quote. He goes on to say.

  08:58 “But this may present a problem for some because there are so many shoulds and should nots that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes, well-meaning amplifications of divine principles, many coming from uninspired sources complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with manmade addenda.

  09:18 One person’s good idea, something that may work for him or her takes root becomes an expectation. And gradually, eternal principles get lost within the labyrinth of good ideas.” Later on in this same section of his talk, he says, “Because love is the great commandment, it ought to be at the center of all and everything we do in our own family, in our church callings, and in our livelihood. Love is the healing balm that repairs rifts in personal and family relationships. It is the bond that unites families, communities, and nations. Love is the power that initiates friendship, tolerance, civility and respect. It is the source that overcomes divisiveness and hate. Love is the fire that warms our lives with unparalleled joy and divine hope. Love should be our walk and our talk.

  10:06 When we truly understand what it means to love as Jesus Christ loves us. The confusion clears and our priorities align. Our walk as disciples of Christ becomes more joyful. Our lives take on new meaning. Our relationship with our heavenly Father becomes more profound. Obedience becomes a joy rather than a burden.”

Lori Denning: 10:25 Amen. That was awesome. Two things. The next verse is exactly where President Uchtdorf went next. Paul says, “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” It seemed like he was describing where you take a good idea, and then President Uchtdorf says, and then you pile on, and then you over apply it, and you’re like, “That was a good idea. But it really wasn’t the gospel.” I think we’re all probably a little bit like that. We’re just bombarded with really great self-help and things online and we’re like…

Hank Smith: 10:57 Lots of good ideas.

Lori Denning: 10:58 I could do that. I could do that.

Hank Smith: 10:58 Yeah.

Lori Denning: 10:59 That’s a lot of good ideas. And they’re not really not Christlike. They’re not Christlike. But the second thing is, yeah, so many things that how can I follow all the commandments? But he’s like, love. Love’s the big commandment, and that’s the guideline, and we can love as Christ loved. And then, you’re on the right track.

Hank Smith: 11:15 That’s exactly right. The contemporary English version of that same verse eight. These arguments may sound wise, but they’re only human teachings. They come from the powers of the world and not from Christ.

Lori Denning: 11:28 I think that takes us perfectly to a transition of one of these main points, and that’s chapter two verse 12. And he’s going to use one of these really powerful symbols of what this means in this new life. If we learned how to love and we’ve learned to just distance ourselves from these teachings of the world, he’s going to remind us of what our new life is.

  11:49 Let’s go to 2:12. I’m reading it in the NRSV. He’s reminding them that you’re introduced into this new family, this walk with Christ, this family of the Savior, and he says in 2:12, “When you were buried with him in baptism, you were raised up with him through faith in the power of God who raised him from the dead.” We’re in a new life. I like that because I need visuals, and I need simple things.

  12:19 My baptism renewed in the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper every Sunday. I died like he died, but I also have a new life. My new life in Christ. This new walk with Christ. I’m a new creature. I’m a new thing. I can do that, and I can follow him. When I reflect on the sacrament, I think I’m not just reflecting on his sacrifice, which we did in… Philippians so well. But I’m also reflecting on my new life. I’m like Him, and I like that a lot that I died and I’m reborn as something new in Him.

Hank Smith: 12:54 Excellent.

John Bytheway: 12:55 Yeah, that’s what I thought when you asked the question, what does it mean to walk with him? And part of that is verse 12, “Be buried with him in baptism and risen with him.” And we talked about that in Romans. The Romans 6:4 verse, “Were buried with Him, walk ye with Him.” I put in my margin section 19:23, “Walk in the meekness of my Spirit.” And that’s such a good question. What does that mean exactly?

  13:22 And in verse seven, there’s in Him. In verse nine, there’s an in Him. In verse 10, there’s an in Him. Verse 12, “Buried with Him in baptism,” which reminds us what we talked about in Romans, we’re buried… Let me go to it exactly. “Therefore, we are buried with Him by baptism unto death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

  13:48 The symbol of being baptized, going down under the water like a symbol of death and then we’re risen with Him, kind of a do what he did thing, and that’s exactly what these Colossians have done. They were buried with Him in baptism and now trying to walk with Him.

Lori Denning: 14:05 I like that. And I like that he keeps bringing it out to this new life, this new walk. And then, he brings it out that we’re part of something bigger. We’re part of this extra community that he talks about. I don’t think Paul is telling us that we should just not follow the commandments. He’s not saying you don’t need to follow those things. It’s just love. But as we start our new walk in Christ, like you said John, as we’re kind of born, we leave our old things behind. We’re now following him as our new Lord.

  14:33 So, we don’t think about kings very much because we don’t have many of them left in the world. Then, they did. It was like, if you’re following your king, that’s your guy you’re following. But we do have something that we do a lot is that we have stuff that we really align with. It could be our football team. It could be our college that we went to. It could be our political affiliation. And we align ourselves there first.

  15:00 And what Paul would advise us in this new death and new birth, you’re now following Him. And in this new walk, you follow Him first. You are Christ followers. First you are members of the church, Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints first, in a way that that’s supposed to guide you. You have to leave that other stuff behind, or, and he’s going to go on quite an example here in a minute, but he’s going to talk about how we take our lives and say, “Now, how do we do that then?” And he’s going to teach us again how we’re going to do this walk through Christ.

  15:35 And in a typical fashion, he’s going to go back to teach us more about the Savior first, and then he is going to apply it. Since we’re doing another poem, I want to highlight a couple things again, how to read these poems and why they’re important. The most impactful and emotional things in your life. Let’s start with good ones. Let’s stay away from the bad ones for a minute.

  15:56 Good ones, birth of a child, graduating from school, falling in love. Can you think of anything like that? And then, are there any favorite songs that go along with those? Anything that’s the most impactful moment of your life is something that hit you really, emotionally. There’s something about something emotional and something hard to describe that works really well in poetry and song.

Hank Smith: 16:24 Lori, I finally thought of one. It’s when I very first touched the western wall of the old temple.

Lori Denning: 16:32 So, some of my favorite examples are in Luke. The beginning of Luke is like a musical. And when Mary finds out she’s going to have baby Jesus and she’s so excited that the Messiah is finally coming, she sings a song. We call it the Magnificat. My soul is magnified by the Lord. She burst out in a song.

  16:53 Similarly, Luke also has another song when Zacharia. Finally, he’s found out about John the Baptist, his baby boy after being older… Miracle. And he is mute. And then, they say, “What’s his name going to be?” And they say, “John.” And then, he sings a song. He just burst out in a song. But one of my favorites is the Luke 2 story. The angel comes to the shepherds and it’s like, Hey, the Messiah is finally born, born to you this day in a manger. And the skies tear open with what? Glory to God in the highest.

  17:34 In these moments of profound spirituality, it isn’t just emotion. But it’s emotion, it’s big ideas and it’s maybe the only way to really understand them and take something that is hard to understand in your heart and in your mind and everything together is with song, is with poetry. The reason that we find so much poetry in scripture, even if you can’t see it in King James is because it’s taking those same things where they’re hard to explain, where they’re spiritual and they’re deep and they’re challenging.

  18:07 Let me let you in on one other little secret. The majority of times when the Lord speaks in the Old Testament all the way through the Doctrine and Covenants not as Jesus Christ, but when he’s speaking as God, it’s in poetry. The Lord is trying to communicate something profound, something spiritual, something deep, something multilayered, something that’s going to impact us in ways that it can’t do if I just tell you a story, and he’s going to do it with a poem.

  18:35 So, we’re going to hit another song. And Paul is going to try to say, I’m trying to explain something that’s deep and spiritual and exciting and powerful. We’ll make it a song. Again, they don’t rhyme like English. It doesn’t rhyme like English. It rhymes in ideas. It’ll have patterns of ideas. Let’s try it.

  18:51 So, let’s go to Colossians. Let’s read this one, and it’s one of 15 through 20. Remember last time we talked about the hamburger? This one is a little bit different. It has one big section, 15 through 16. Then, it has two little sections, 17 and then 18. So, it’s like a really big bun, little slab of meat, a little piece of cheese, and then another really big bun.

  19:17 So, it’s got big little, little big, and that helps us because what it’s going to try to do is use the same pivot or hinge in the middle, which is these key ideas. So, instead of being a big hamburger, it’s got a lot of bread, but the meat in it’s really powerful, 16, 17 and 18 are the keys in the middle, and that’s what we’re going to do.

Hank Smith: 19:39 You’re telling me this is a high carb, high protein… Oh.

Lori Denning: 19:42 That’s a high carb. It’s all bread. It’s a big something. I can’t make that metaphor work anymore. But yes, let’s try it. What he’s going to tell us about here is he’s trying to explain the role of Jesus Christ. We’re going to start this new life in Christ. We’re walking in Christ. He’s trying to teach us about him, so we understand what this walk is like. And we’ve learned it’s about love, and we’ve learned about following the commandments. And now, we’re going to learn about him.

Hank Smith: 20:08 Okay. I have the NRSV here. The new revised standard version starts in verse 15. “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For in Him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers; all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. For in Him, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Lori Denning: 20:58 There’s something powerful and profound going on with these two big sections. We were calling them the bread sections. There are two big sections. He’s going to talk about Christ being in the image of God, and then he’s going to go back and he’s going to use this idea who was in the beginning. And yet, was the firstborn.

  21:14 When an author uses something like this, they want you to stop and they want you to sit with it, and they want you to research it and ponder it and go for a long walk and really dig into it. This is something that you could spend a lifetime really pondering what each of these lines mean, and how this reflects on the life of Christ. And then, how this reflects on your life as… Remember, you’re now dead and now alive in Him.

  21:40 What I like to think of is, again, this has a lot of layers. Meaning, there are a lot of interpretations. The first interpretation is about God. This is going to tell us about God. The second I think is it’s going to tell about Christ on earth. I think it’s also going to tell us about us, and then it’s going to also tell us about community and how we live as in a community. And lastly, I think it’s going to have a layer on what we do in communities with rulers who are not Christ.

  22:09 So, it’s going to be someone who would be… You’re not following the right leader because this is a lesson on how are we supposed to follow Him. We’re walking in Him, so we’re going to understand God. We’re also going to understand Christ as immortal. We’re sin ourselves and go once. As we go through that, that’s where you can just tease this out and keep going and keep going.

  22:30 Again, the middle is the core ideas. So, verse 17 and 18, and I have a little different translation. But He is before all things, and in all things in Him hold together, and He is the head of the body, the church. So, He is the creator. He’s everything. But I wanted to start on the first idea, the first idea who is in the image of God? The invisible one, the firstborn of all creations.

  22:53 And here’s why. The big ideas are complicated. And sometimes, I get lost in them. But when it’s something that I can apply, I’m like, “Yeah, I like that.” Here is a place that I think we can apply. We know we’re created in God’s image. And he’s specifically here talking about Christ first that he’s created, he’s like us. It reminds me of that very first Genesis story that we’re created in his image.

  23:20 When you think of an image, the word that they used to use anciently was an idol, like an idol statue. In the middle of a temple or a building, they would put the statue, and that was the image. It is literally the same word. It’s Salem, in Hebrew. They would put that there. It would be the image of God. And he’s saying, we don’t have that in ours because you’re the image.

  23:44 If you went to the ancient Hebrew temple, there’s no person carving. There’s no thing, why? Because it’s you, you’re the image of God. You are like Him in everything. When you worship or you represent something else, you are diminishing yourself, and you’re not really realizing where you are. He’s the firstborn and you’re like Him. You’re meant to be a joint heir.

  24:11 And here’s where it gets really interesting. Your role as His image is to go out in the world and reflect that out into the world, so that there are little pockets of Him everywhere. We love the temple, but we don’t go to the temple because that is the only place that He can be. We go there so we can learn, and then take it out. We can take the message of the Gospel to everywhere. He was in the image, and so are you. And you are joint heirs, and you are supposed to go and tend the garden and take care of it. And you are Him. You’re his hands, right? You’re in his walk. Go do what He would do.

Hank Smith: 24:53 God doesn’t want us to make any graven images to him because as Genesis says, “He created man in His own image.”

Lori Denning: 25:02 Yeah, and how much more powerful is that? Is that if I am born in Christ and I am in His image, that I am His representative every day. So, just like your President Uchtdorf quote, we’re out there in love. We’re out there spreading the good news just by what we do every day, being a little kinder, being a little nicer, sharing the Gospel, being a little more patient. We are His image. If He can’t be here right now every second… well, He could. But if he’s going to make us do it, he is like, Well, go do it. Go walk with Christ. You are His image. And just like you follow Him, you watch Jesus do all these things, and we’ve been studying in all New Testament. Now, you know what to do. Go do the same thing.

John Bytheway: 25:49 This reminds me of third Nephi, one of the nicknames that Jesus actually shares with us, like image it sounds like is, “I am the light of the world.” And then, he says, “I give unto you to be a light to the world.” And then, He says, “So, let your light shine, and then “I am the light that you shall hold up at which you have seen me do.” That’s how we take his image out, kind of that’s a parallel idea.

Lori Denning: 26:13 That’s a really great application of that. All right. Back to the poem. That’s the first idea that really jumps out at me. Let’s go to that little section in the middle, the hinge. And again, let’s start with he’s teaching us about Christ, so that we can understand our walk in Him, so we understand Him, so we can be like Him. And it says, “He is before all things, and all things in Him hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church.” This was all part of the plan. He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.

  26:48 This was part of the plan from the Old Testament, from the Book of Abraham, from Moses. This was before the foundations of the earth. He even goes back that far. He says, “Before everything was created, Christ was there.” This was all part of the plan, which I think is applicable to us too. You were all part of the plan. And in Him, He’s your boss, and He’s in charge of the church. As long as you follow Him, you’ll be on the right track.

  27:18 And then, it reminds us, He was the first one to die and through His resurrection we will be like Him, and we’ll reconcile to God. You’re never too far. There’s no sin so great that the Atonement of Jesus Christ can’t cover because He is God Himself. In this new walk, follow Him. You are in His image, and everything that He sacrificed is so that you can be like Him.

Hank Smith: 27:47 So, Lori, we’ve seen the second poem here, so grateful we get to read biblical poems in hymns. This is fun. Where should we jump next?

Lori Denning: 27:56 Let’s jump to three, and then let’s go down to about verse 10. So, Colossians 3:10.

Hank Smith: 28:02 Lori, isn’t this pretty typical for Paul to teach the doctrine, and then say, “Okay, here’s how you’re going to implement this.”

Lori Denning: 28:08 Yeah. Here’s what I want us to do. I want us to just see if we can pick out any practical things that we would do. So, we’re in chapter 3:10. Hank, will you read that again in your translation?

Hank Smith: 28:20 Colossians 3:10 and 11 says, “Clothe yourself with the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of its creator.” Again, this is the NRSV translation. “In that renewal, there is no longer Greek or Jew circumcised or uncircumcised Barbarian, Scythian”, I think that’s out of Star Trek, “slave and free. But Christ is all and in all”.

Lori Denning: 28:49 Yeah, I love that. Time for a story. I remember that after I served a mission, and we probably all have these in moments where we’ve been away from people for a long time. Come back and I feel like, how do I introduce my new self to my old friends, my old high school friends. But yet, he’s made me something new. And so, I have to put on that new person that I was.

  29:13 And so, I think what he’s saying here is just exactly what had given me that advice, “Lori, when you go home, you’re the new Lori. You don’t have to go to your old high school friends and be your old silly high school person. You can be this person.” And I’m like, “I don’t know. I haven’t put this on for very long. I’m not used to being new Lori.”

  29:31 So, I think it’s this image of Him. I’m trying to be more like Him, but I’m not used to it yet. Good news, they loved it. They were like, “Oh, that’s great. I’m glad that you did a mission thing. That sounds really great.” I was like, “Oh. And here I thought you’d be critical. I’m glad you liked the new me.” But sometimes, it is hard. It’s hard to put on the new you.

  29:48 So, I think that’s what he’s saying. After you’ve put on the new one, you’re renewed in knowledge and after the image of Him. And then, he takes it a step further as always, then we have to take it out into… We aren’t just the places where we were, we’re part of a bigger family. We’re not Greek or Jew. So, it would be like, “I’m not a BYU fan or a Utah fan. I’m not just from Utah or California. I’m not just from North America or Europe. I am in Christ in all and in all. We’re part of a bigger family.”

  30:19 He’s changing our mind. I want to show you how he applies this even more. He’s going to talk about an old Roman family structure. He talks about what they’re supposed to do, and he gives all these instructions to each member of the family. And that’s really chapter four.

  30:36 He’s going to take this idea of the new you, and then he is going to say, “What do we do with it?” And he says, “Well, in ancient Roman culture, we’ve probably heard of this, it’s like the father is the super in charge guy, the paterfamilias.” And he even had life and death for his family. He could decide. He could punish them any way he wanted. He could do anything. It was a very weird place.

  30:57 But he’s saying now that you’re not really Roman, I want you to take this really thing that’s just really in your society, and how do you take that new Christlike thing and love and hope and put it into a structure that’s already there. He’s going to say this family structure, you used to have the dad and the dad had life and death. And the mom was a servant. And kids, we didn’t talk to them. I mean, they were just like slaves. And then, they actually had slaves.

  31:24 And so, he is like, “Well, what do you do?” He takes a real-life example, and he says, “Look, dad’s rule in love. Mom’s, you’re ruling, you’re giving yourself to be in this family, not because he’s in charge, and he’s mean. But now, because you’re all following Christ. And the person you really follow is the Savior.” So, you’re not just following this paterfamilias or the structure that you grew up in. You’re now doing this.

  31:49 And kids, obey your parents, not because they’re mean to you, but obey them because you’re in this new world. And slaves, you’re actually brothers along with your masters. And masters, they’re actually your brothers. Yeah, that’s what I’m telling you because you’re all part of one big family.

  32:09 And then, you know how he ends the letter? It’s a big punch. He says, “Oh, by the way, I got this guy with me, and he’s a runaway slave. He says his name is Onesimus. It looks like Onesimus, but Onesimus. He was a runaway slave who became a Christian. And his owner, former owner’s name Philemon. We got a whole letter about this in a minute.

  32:33 And he says, “Can you actually apply this kind of new life where you are one in Christ before anything else?” And he says, “Onesimus, when he shows up to your town, everybody in Colossae, I want you to greet him like a brother, not a slave, not anything else.” And you guys, if he was a runaway slave, they could have imprisoned him or worse. This is bad news. And they said, “No. As Christians now, you do something else.” And then, he does it again. He says, “Hey, Philemon, former owner of Onesimus, you’re just not an owner. You’re just not this guy that’s whatever… He’s your brother. And so, when I send him back, he’s your brother now.”

  33:18 Can you imagine? Good luck, everybody. So, you’re like, I’m going to put this to the test culturally. I’m going to send Onesimus back. And I hope that all of you can now see that you are now one all-in-all, and you are brothers and sisters in the Gospel, in Zion, and you’re one in heart. And it’s going to be a little tight at times. See, if you can do it. And that’s when we end the letter. Good luck. Love you, Paul.

Hank Smith: 33:45 Yeah.

Lori Denning: 33:45 So, he’s telling us we live in a new world. We’ve been dead and arisen in Him. As we learn more of Him, we follow Him. As we follow Him, the application is, we’re not that thing we used to be. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I reflect Him in everything I do and every action, how I comport myself at work, how I drive on the road, how I shop. Everything I do is a reflection of Him. See, if you can do it.

John Bytheway: 34:12 President Nelson back in… It was July of 2022, and I believe it was a huge young, single adult kind of fireside. What you said reminded me of this. What Paul is saying reminds me of this. He said, “Labels can be fun that indicate your support for any number of positive things. But if any label replaces your most important identifiers, the results can be spiritually suffocating.

  34:37 I believe that if the Lord were speaking to you directly, the first thing He would make sure you understand is your true identity. My dear friends, you are literally spirit children of God. No identifier should displace, replace or take priority over these three enduring designations. You’re a child of God. You’re a child of the covenant. You’re a disciple of Jesus Christ.

  35:01 Any identifier that is not compatible with those three basic designations will ultimately let you down. Make no mistake about it. Your potential is divine. With your diligent seeking, God will give you glimpses of who you may become.” And that relates back to that image thing. And some of these, he said they’re not wrong, they can be fun, they can indicate support for this or that. But if they replace the most important, and like you were saying, when you have that in your mind, you’re different on the freeway.

Hank Smith: 35:33 Yeah.

Lori Denning: 35:33 I’m still working on that one, by the way. And I’m working on that. You guys, my business self and my church self, have not quite merged. But I’m learning to because that’s what Paul is teaching. That’s what we’re teaching, is that they’re the same person and all-in-all, and first and foremost, I need to represent him even on the freeway.

John Bytheway: 35:52 Boy, and for Paul to set this up that way so that they’re all going, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, agree.” I mean, you can almost imagine Paul’s, “Can I get an amen? Yeah, yeah.” Okay. Now, Onesimus used to be a slave. Now, he’s your brother.

Lori Denning: 36:10 And you’re like, if you’d started with that…

John Bytheway: 36:12 Let me have you practice everything you’d just said amen to. I mean, that was brilliant the way he set that up, wasn’t it?

Lori Denning: 36:19 Yeah, he is a good guy. There’s a whole separate letter, you’re going to do that one.

John Bytheway: 36:22 Yeah, that’s coming. But he introduces him there in chapter 4, doesn’t he?

Lori Denning: 36:26 He does.

John Bytheway: 36:26 Onesimus.

Lori Denning: 36:27 And he leaves it hanging.

John Bytheway: 36:30 A faithful beloved brother who is one of you, he says in verse 9.

Lori Denning: 36:34 He’s just the brother. I always think like, “Good luck. Let’s see how you do with your new test.” You’re like, “Wait a minute. I didn’t know there was going to be a test on the end of this one.”

Hank Smith: 36:44 I liked what you said. I don’t know if I really want to do it. I really like when Paul gives lists of things we can do better. And he does this in chapter three. Now, I have my contemporary English version. It seems to be just on my same level. So, this is what it says starting in 3:5, “Don’t be controlled by your body. Don’t be immoral or indecent or have evil thoughts. Don’t be greedy. You must quit being angry, hateful, and evil. You must no longer say insulting or cruel things about others, and you have to stop lying to each other. You have given up your old way of life with its habits. You’re now a new person. You’re becoming more and more like your Creator and you can understand Him better.”

  37:28 It says, “God loves you. So, be gentle, kind, humble, meek and patient.” I like this. “Put up with each other, and forgive anyone who does you wrong, just as Christ has forgiven you. Love is more important than anything else. It is what ties everything completely together.” So, that gives me a list of things that I can do better. Get rid of greed. Get rid of immorality, and anger…

Lori Denning: 37:54 Don’t talk bad about people. Quit lying about those guys.

Hank Smith: 37:56 … saying insulting or cruel thing, yeah. Don’t lie to each other, yeah. I like that. It’s the rattling off of things I can improve on.

Lori Denning: 38:05 John, what do you think?

John Bytheway: 38:07 I’m looking at verse 23. I’m still in King James over here. Colossians 3:23, “And whatsoever you do, do it heartily.” And I guess, that means with all your heart. The footnote topical guide says, “Commitment, industry.” Do it with all your heart, might, mind and strength, we might say.

Lori Denning: 38:28 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 38:29 Yeah, as though you were serving the Lord himself.

John Bytheway: 38:32 And not unto them…

Lori Denning: 38:33 As though your life depends on it.

John Bytheway: 38:35 Yeah.

Lori Denning: 38:35 And I think he always brings it back to the big idea that in the verse that you read, Hank, he actually uses an interesting analogy of clothing. So, he’s like, “You lay apart your old clothing and you’re putting on this new clothing. So, quit lying. And now, love each other. Put on your new suit and your new suit are these actions,” verse 15, chapter 3. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts to which indeed you were called in one body, and be thankful.

John Bytheway: 39:03 And Lori, the example that you gave, for some people it’s not that easy. They come home feeling like a new person, and they want to be that new person. And that’s why at the end of EFY… And now FSY, we’re seeing, I’m taking it home with me. We want… This is going to be hard because sometimes, they want you to be that old person.

  39:24 So, for everybody out there that’s trying to put on the new man or the new woman, hold onto that because we have experiences that make us say, “I want to do better. I want to try harder.” And sometimes, what’s the old analogy? The crabs crawling out of the bucket, the other crabs keep pulling it down. They don’t want you to. And I hope Paul can give us motivation to change what we can, so that we can be that new person and put on that new person. And then, take all this advice and do it heartily.

Lori Denning: 39:57 Do it heartily. Go all in. I do think one thing that we can take consolation in, he was writing to people 2,000 years ago and they struggled to do the same things, and so are we. We’re not always going to get it. And they seem to be, I love in the poem, that was how it was all planned. We knew exactly what this was before the foundations of the world, and Christ was set up because he knew that taking it home every day and trying these things and being nice on the freeway, and just being a little better every day isn’t something you’re just going to get in one afternoon, but it’s a lifetime.

  40:30 In fact, probably, still not going to get it. But you’ll be better for it, and he will be there along the way like, that’s what he’s for. And I think that’s the big message of Colossians, that we take this new life in Christ. We take the new clothing. We take this new focus on Him, and we just keep using it, and he’ll be there for us all along the way.

John Bytheway: 40:52 And we, as those that were in the congregation of Onesimus have to be able to let them to not go, “No, that’s not you.” So, when we see somebody who’s trying to give it a new start and put on that new person, boy, let’s be there for them and encourage them and help them do that because I think that can be really challenging for them. And oh, let’s help them because all of us have moments where we want to do better and be better, don’t we?

Lori Denning: 41:20 Yeah, and I love how he says it.

John Bytheway: 41:22 Yeah.

Lori Denning: 41:22 He says, “Brother.”

John Bytheway: 41:23 This is a brother now.

Lori Denning: 41:25 And you’re just going to give him a million chances, and you’re just going to hold him close and say, “It’s not just some person that we used to know, we’re now brothers and sisters.” There’s just nothing tighter. And I like that, John, give them a chance and hold them close.

John Bytheway: 41:39 It hurts my heart to think of people who have been less active, people who have not been coming. Boy, we’ve got to welcome them back with everything we’ve got, and help them try to put on that new person if that’s what they’re trying to do. Don’t you hear that from people that, “Now, I can’t come back because how would they see me? How would they treat me?” Oh, we got to be so welcoming.

Lori Denning: 42:01 And just understanding, not bringing it up. We’re hoping for that for ourselves. But sometimes, it’s hard to remember that we’re the ones causing the grief in our community.

Hank Smith: 42:10 I’ll be a little vulnerable here. I was once on a seminary faculty with a man named John and a man named Quinn. If they’re listening, they’ll know who they are. Quinn and I were just the best of friends, and we would poke fun at each other all the time.

  42:24 There was this one moment where we had some new faculty come on, and we were out doing a little retreat or something and I said, “Hey, you guys, let me tell you a story about Quinn.” And it was a story from a couple of years ago, and John pulled me aside and he said, “I know you’re being fun and I know you and Quinn are good friends, but let that go. Let that go. Don’t tell that story anymore.” And I said, “Well, it’s a funny story. It’s a funny story.” And he said, “I don’t think he likes it.” And I said, “Okay.” I never told that story again. I think we could do that with people. I think we can determine that there’s some stories that don’t need to be retold.

Lori Denning: 43:09 Thanks, Hank. That was a really good example. That was nice because you were kind of the bad guy in the story. But I think…

Hank Smith: 43:16 Yeah.

Lori Denning: 43:17 So, thank you because it was very bold of you to do that because you’re the very kind man. But oh, that’s powerful. I think that’s exactly what Paul is saying, this new life in Christ, we’re all going to need to pull together and be brothers and sisters. And it’s going to be hard, and we’re not going to quite get it right. This new life is challenge.

John Bytheway: 43:34 I think of so many young men and young women who have come from a tough place and go on missions, and it’s a chance for them when no one knows them in the MTC and no one’s going to say, “Hey, that’s not you,” where they literally put on some new clothes and go on a mission. And oh, please let them change. And then, when they come home, yeah, let them put on that new person because we all have to do that to some degree, in some ways more visible than others.

Hank Smith: 44:03 Aren’t we each in our own lives, kind of like chapter 4, when Paul sends Onesimus?

Lori Denning: 44:07 Onesimus.

Hank Smith: 44:08 He sends him back and says, “All right, let’s see how you do.”

John Bytheway: 44:13 Hey, he’s your brother.

Hank Smith: 44:13 Yeah, let’s see how you do.

Lori Denning: 44:14 Let’s see how you do. Let’s try it in real life.

Hank Smith: 44:15 And wouldn’t it be great if all of us said, “Okay, what’s my chance today to put in practice everything that I’ve been taught here?”

Lori Denning: 44:23 Yeah, I think you’re exactly right. Every day, you have a chance to have an Onesimus or a Philemon moment. What am I going to choose to do in my new life? And you’re like, oh. It’s easy for them. That guy, he clearly should have accepted that slave back and whatever. And now, you’re like, “Well, but in my own life.”

John Bytheway: 44:41 Yeah, if you haven’t renewed your recommend for a while, and you finally get that and you go back to the temple, they’re going to say, “Welcome to the temple.” If you’re one of those that gets it renewed a month before it expires every two years, they’re going to say, “Welcome, to the temple.” And they’re just going to love you. We got to be like those greeters, just welcome back.

Lori Denning: 45:01 Yeah, I think it’s always a testimony of the Savior. It comes back to the poems. It comes back to the lesson that that’s what He does. He takes the woman caught in adultery, where are thine accusers? I don’t condemn you. He picks us up and He carries us in His arms and He says, “Head back out there and try again.” And He says, “In fact, I’ll go with you this time.”

  45:23 And I think it’s that message of Christ that we can say, “Look, I’m never on my own. I’m never going to quite get it all the way, but He’s always going to be there with us, and I am now like Him, and I can reflect Him out into the world.” That I think is the core message that Paul is telling us, and he is not saying it’s not going to be hard just like Onesimus and Philemon. But he is saying, “You can do it just like he did.”

John Bytheway: 45:45 As soon as the prodigal son turns, father runs to him and walks back with him, “I’ll be right with you. I don’t know what you’re going to hear from the townspeople as you come back into town, but I’m going to have my arm around you. I’m going to walk back with you.”

Lori Denning: 46:02 Amen.

Hank Smith: 46:03 The Come, Follow Me manual has a great suggestion. It says, “Record your thoughts about how the Savior is changing you, so that you can review them in the future and ponder how you are progressing.”

Lori Denning: 46:16 Wow. I made like a face like, “Oh, dear.” I better do some better progressing. So, oh, dear.

Hank Smith: 46:23 I can actually, see some progression.

Lori Denning: 46:25 It’s like everything. These self-reflective moments are so great, but they’re so hard. And we look at these ancient people and go, “That guy should probably do this, and/or they’re so silly, why did they choose that?” And then, I go, “But oh, for me, well…” I’m just way farther down the line on fixing these things, and really understanding how Christ works with me.

  46:42 So, I guess my message does… Yeah, I’m going to write those down. But I’m going to write, have a little grace with yourself. Give yourself a little time because it’s going to take a while.

Hank Smith: 46:53 Beautiful. Lori, this has been fantastic. I think you have endeared yourself to every followHIM listener…

John Bytheway: 46:59 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 47:00 … out there. I think our listeners would be interested in a little bit of your story that you’re pursuing this doctorate degree in religious studies in the Hebrew Bible in all that you’re doing. And yet, here you are a faithful, believing, all-in Latter-day Saint. Can you tell us a little bit about that journey?

Lori Denning: 47:20 Yeah, thank you. I would love to tell that story. I do think there’s some weird misunderstanding that as people become more educated, they would become more jaded or find out something. For me, it’s twofold. I think the first thing is that, the more I study, the more I find the truths just rebounding on themselves and building and just understanding it more and more. You don’t have to know Hebrew to know about Jesus Christ.

  47:44 So, I don’t want to mistaken anybody that somehow I know more or something. That’s not it at all. But the more I study, I see patterns in these Hebrew scriptures, meaning in the Old Testament, and they’re the same patterns that Samuel the Lamanite uses. And then, as I learn about the image of God, then I see that in Doctrine and Covenants. And then, I see it in my life.

  48:03 And so, it’s just like this rebounding, giving back thing that the more I give it is my study and my effort, the more I’m like, “Wow.” And so, I absolutely, love it. I love studying the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The second piece is that, it helps me understand Him better. I came to… And I’ve shared some of that today, but know Him and He knew me. I understood the Savior in a way that I didn’t know before. That is hard to express in academics or write in a paper or do in Hebrew, Greek. But I can’t ever walk away from that. I can’t walk away from those feelings and those impressions, and the things that I know in my soul about Jesus Christ.

  48:47 I just want to follow Him. I mean, He is my guy. If He says to do it, I want to do it. I want to be more like Him, and I want to do what He says. I love Jesus Christ. And I could not leave Him as much as He can love me. Once I’ve known Him, I feel like there’s something there that I just hope to be more like, and more to understand. That’s what fuels me. The techie part, and all that is just icing on the cake to following Him. I believe in Him and I am His follower. And that’s my hope for all of us. And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Hank Smith: 49:23 Amen. What a great day.

  49:24 Never think of these two books the same way again.

Lori Denning: 49:28 Thank you. You guys have been a delight.

Hank Smith: 49:30 We want to thank Professor Lori Denning for being with us today. Lori, it has been fantastic. We want to thank our executive producer. We couldn’t do it without her, Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. We always remember our founder Steve Sorensen, and we hope you’ll join us next week. We’ll be into Thessalonians on FollowHIM.

  49:52 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followHIM dot C-O. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free, and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends.

  50:09 We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabel Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 50:31 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.