John Bytheway: 00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Ross Barron 3 Nephi 20 to 26.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Let me tell you both a story. I had a conversation with a member of the Twelve years ago. They don’t frequently reach out to me, but this was a conversation I had. We were with a small group of missionaries who had yet to go serve and they said, “What advice do you have?” He said, “Number one, please don’t do dumb things. You represent the church. When you do dumb things, you can really set the church back.” And then he said something I had never heard. “The second piece of advice I can give you is that if someone is not taking the Book of Mormon seriously, they’re not ready and you can move on.” The more I read the Book of Mormon, especially this chapter or chapter 21, the more I understand that, that it will speak to someone, the book will speak to them.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:53 Yep. Can I quote President Nelson? This is then Elder Nelson. This is from the October 2010 General Conference. He said, “Many years ago, two colleagues of mine, a nurse and her doctor husband, asked me why I live the way I did. I answered, ‘Because I know the Book of Mormon is true.’ I let them borrow my copy of the book and invited them to read it. A week later, they returned with my book with a polite, ‘Thanks a lot.’ I responded, ‘What do you mean thanks a lot? That’s a totally inappropriate response for one who has read this book. You didn’t read it, did you? Please take it back and read it. Then I would like my book back.’ Admitting that they had only turned its pages, they accepted my invitation. When they returned, they said tearfully, ‘We have read the Book of Mormon. We know it’s true. We want to know more.’ They learned more, and it was my privilege to baptize both of them.”

  01:49 That’s exactly what you were saying. I mean I love that, the instrument of the gathering, Book of Mormon. We’ve done 20 and 21 textually deep. We’ve talked about the gathering of Israel. Then now the Savior is going to quote the entire 54th chapter of Isaiah. He’s done Isaiah 52, he’s done Micah. He’s weaved those verses together. Some of them are out of order, but 3 Nephi 22 is Isaiah 54 in its entirety.

  02:18 I’m going to suggest to you that the frame we look at Isaiah 54 is how a husband ought to treat his wife or how the Savior treats his church. In other words, the church is metaphorically scripturally referred to as the woman or the wife, the bride, He is the bridegroom, 3 Nephi 22. 1-3, children. 4-8, love. 9 and 10, commitment. 11 and 12, material comfort. 13-17 protection. In other words, this is what Jesus does for us. When we say children, in this case we’re talking about, of course we’re talking about children, but we’re talking about his children coming into the kingdom, and that the church has prevailed. We started out with six members in upstate New York. Their Colesville branch had about 60 members eventually. It’s kind of a motley crew as we move from New York to Kirtland where they’ve baptized 127 people. We know the history right there.

  03:25 But then the Lord says in verse 2, “Enlarge the place of thy tent. Let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations.” Why? Why would we have to do that? Well, because more and more people will come unto the kingdom. Since President Nelson has been the prophet, there have been 185 temples announced.

  03:49 Now, look at the phrase that Isaiah put in here in verse 2, “Spare not.” In other words, you can imagine being in a budget meeting and we’re talking about building another temple. You can imagine somebody saying, “Hey, shouldn’t we be careful here? Shouldn’t we be a little conservative?” And then Isaiah, shouting through time from thousands of years ago, “Spare not. No, spare not. You need to lengthen thy cords. You need to strengthen the stakes. This is God’s work and it’s going to move forward and it’s going to move forward at an accelerated place. Why? For thou shall break forth on the right hand,” verse 3, “and on the left, thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.” Children, meaning people are going to come into the kingdom. Then what are we going to do? We’re going to love them. We are going to absolutely love them.

  04:44 And this is what all these verses talk about this idea, “In a little wrath, verse 8, “I hid my face from thee for a moment. But with everlasting kindness, will I have mercy on thee saith the Lord thy Redeemer.” Commitment. Verse 10, “For the mountain shall depart and the hills be removed, but my kindness shall not depart from thee. Neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord, that hath mercy on thee.”

  05:06 Material comfort. Middle of verse 11, “I will lay thy stones with fair colors, lay thy foundation with sapphires. I will make thy windows of agates and thy gates of carbuncles, all thy borders of pleasant stones.” And then 13 through 17, he’s going to protect his covenant people. “All thy children shall be taught of the Lord. Great shall be the peace of thy children. No weapon formed against thee shall prosper.” Verse 17.

  05:30 I want to make a comment about one sentence here I love in verse 14. “In righteousness shalt thou be established.” When I was a stake president in Rexburg of a YSA stake, I would interview between 50 and 150 couples to be sealed every April, July and December. Think about that number I just said, because that was the end of semesters. I would say, “I’m going to give you a little counsel,” and we turn to 3 Nephi 22, “In righteousness shalt thou be established. You want your home and your marriage established, then it’s got to be done in righteousness.”

  06:09 That’s what we want. “In righteousness shalt thou be established.” Wow, there you now receive the protection blessings. Now we get the blessing of children, of love, of commitment, of material comfort and of his protecting covenant power. I love how he transitioned 3 Nephi 20, 3 Nephi 21. Now we’re in Isaiah 54, 3 Nephi 22. He’s saying, “This is how I’m going to treat my covenant people. This is how it’s going to work in the latter days as we fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. I have not forgotten you in the gathering of others because you will be blessed.”

Hank Smith: 06:44 When I have my students read Isaiah 54 or 3 Nephi 22 and I say, “Did you weep?” And they say, “No.” And I said, “Then you didn’t read it. Read it again.” If this is the one chapter, the Savior quotes from Isaiah, to me, this is just Hank speaking, Isaiah 54 will teach you or show you the character of Christ. Here’s this woman who seems to be unfaithful, the reproach of your widowhood and her husband is calling her saying, “I will bless you. I will take care of you. That mountain may erode and I will still love you.” If you want to learn how Christ feels in His heart towards you, of course to the House of Israel, you can feel it. Go slow, work your way through it and you’ll feel it.

John Bytheway: 07:41 Beautiful. I’m glad you brought up that metaphor. How many times do we see that where Jesus is the bridegroom and the church or Zion or His people are the bride? When I think about eternal marriage, which is a unique idea for us, I think of course that’s true because look at this metaphor the Savior uses so often.

Hank Smith: 08:02 Ross, and maybe you read a chapter like this when you’re feeling a little discouraged that, is this gathering actually going to take place? When you look at the monster of sin on the earth, it seems almost impossible that righteousness is going to win.

Dr. Ross Baron: 08:18 There’s times in the history of the church where you would’ve thought, “It can’t possibly be pulled out. They’re in Farr West.” People, this can’t happen. He’s telling, “Look, sing, cry aloud, be happy.” Think about Isaiah speaking to his prophets, “Spare not. Enlarge the tent. Keep making it bigger.” And this chapter, which, Hank, you talked about makes you weep, prophesies, testifies that in fact His kingdom is going to roll forth, the stone cut out of the mount without hands, it’s going to fill the whole earth. It’s going to break in pieces and consume all the other nations. That’s exactly what Isaiah is saying.

Hank Smith: 08:58 There’s another verse of Isaiah that I love to think of where Isaiah says, “Those who think they’re going to beat Jehovah, the wicked who think, “Oh, we’ve got this made,” are like a man who is asleep and in his dream he is eating and he wakes up and he is hungry.

Dr. Ross Baron: 09:15 Or he drinks and he wakes up and he’s thirsty. Yep.

Hank Smith: 09:18 “Wait, what? I thought I was winning.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 09:20 No, that goes to the last verses 13 through 17. “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper,” which was also in section 109. President Nelson asked us to restudy section 109, “No weapon formed against his covenant people shall prosper. Every tongue that shall revile against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn.” This is the heritage, this is the inheritance of the servants of the Lord, “That righteousness is of me saith the Lord.” President Benson used to carry that in his pocket. I know he got some serious heat when he was Secretary of Agriculture to President Eisenhower in 1952 to 1960, obviously in other parts of his life, but he loved that verse.

Hank Smith: 10:01 Ross, one thing you need to know about John is that he will buy a book if his friend tells him it’s great. He doesn’t buy a book for its cover. He doesn’t look in a magazine. But if I walk up to John and say, “Let me tell you about this book I read,” he usually says, “Sold. I’ll go get it.”

John Bytheway: 10:16 You sold me. If a friend that I trust says, “Oh, this is great,” I believe him. I don’t believe the advertising, but I believe a friend.

Hank Smith: 10:23 And here comes Jesus with a book recommendation.

Dr. Ross Baron: 10:28 Yeah, he has a book recommendation, and that book recommendation and it strikes fear into every Latter-Day Saint when they hear, “It is a commandment I give unto you that you search these things diligently for great are the words of Isaiah.”

Hank Smith: 10:40 I guess it’s not a recommendation. It’s a commandment.

Dr. Ross Baron: 10:45 Right. He never actually commands you to read it. He doesn’t even command you to study it. He actually commands you to search it and search it diligently. Why? Because verse 2, “He spake as touching all things concerning my people, which are of the House of Israel.” And then he says, “If he talked to them about House of Israel, he also must speak about the Gentiles.”

  11:06 So John, I’m glad that you got that recommendation and you’re reading the book of Isaiah. I think that’s great.

  11:12 Now, what’s fascinating about 3 Nephi 23 is he says, “Listen, I’ve got other scriptures I need you guys to have. But bring them out, I want to look at them.” He looks at them. Verse 7, “Bring forth a record which you’ve kept.” So Nephi brings it out. He casts His eyes upon them and says, “Huh, you’ve missed some stuff.”

  11:31 “Verily I say unto you, I commanded my servant Samuel the Lamanite, that he should testify unto this people. That at the day that the father should glorify His name in me, that there were many saints who should arise from the dead and should appear unto many and should minister unto them.” And he said unto them, “Was it not so?”

  11:50 Can you imagine being Nephi right now? Aw. “Yea, Lord. Samuel did prophesy according to thy words, and they were all fulfilled.” Jesus, “How be it that you have not written this thing and that many saints did arise and appear unto many and did minister?” And it came to pass that Nephi remembered this thing had not been written. It came to pass that Jesus commanded that it should be written. Therefore, it was written. It’s like, “Oh, man.”

Hank Smith: 12:11 He remembered. That’s one of my favorites. “You know, I was just about to do that.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 12:16 To write that. “I was going to write that, but then you showed up.”

John Bytheway: 12:19 “I had stylus in hand and then these three days of darkness hit and I kind of lost track of time.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 12:25 I don’t know. I lost track of time. I would like to make a comment though about this idea that there were many saints who should arise from the dead and should appear unto many and should minister unto them. And the question that I’d like to maybe pose here, and I’m going to make a suggestion and this is my view of this, that they ministered unto them. You’ve got Jesus rising from the dead. Samuel prophesied that saints would also arise and should appear unto many and should minister to them. There’s a prophecy back in 2 Nephi 18, which is Isaiah again. It’s going to be kind of a strange verse that we don’t talk a lot about. It talks about this question. I’m in 2 Nephi verse 19, “Should not a people seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead?”

  13:18 When they were laying the foundation of the cornerstones at the Salt Lake Temple, Parley P. Pratt was one of the original members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles. On April 6th, 1853, he gave a talk called spiritual communication and he talked about how we should seek to the dead so that the living can hear from the dead. We should seek to God.

  13:40 I want to share some of the things that Parley says. He said, “Who communicated with Jesus and His disciples on the Holy Mount? Moses and Elias from the invisible world. Who bestowed upon the apostles the commission to preach the gospel to every creature in all the world? He that had passed the veil of death and had dwelt in the spirit world. Yea, he that had ascended far on high above the realms of death. Who communicated with the beloved disciple on the Isle of Patmos and revealed those sublime truths contained in his prophetic book? He that liveth and was dead through his angel who declared John, ‘I am thy fellow servant and of thy brethren the prophets’.”

  14:13 Who communicated with our great modern prophet and revealed through him as a medium the ancient history of a hemisphere in the records of the ancient dead, Moroni, who had lived upon the earth 1,400 years before. Who ordained Joseph the prophet and his fellow servant to the preparatory priesthood to baptize for remission of sins, John the Baptist who had been beheaded, who ordained our first founders to the apostleship to hold the keys to the kingdom of God and these the times of restoration, Peter, James and John, et cetera?”

  14:39 “How do the saints expect the necessary information by which to complete the ministrations for the salvation and exaltation of their friends who have died? By one holding the keys of the Oracles of God through which the living can hear from the dead. Shall we then deny the principle, the fact of communication between the worlds? No. Verily no. Ye Latter-Day Saints, ye thousands of the hosts of Israel, ye are assembled here today,” this is at the dedication of the cornerstone laying of the Salt Lake temple, “and have laid these cornerstones for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, that we may prepare a holy sanctuary where ‘the people may seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead and that heaven and earth and the world of spirits may come commune together’.”

  15:28 The reference on that is the cornerstone laying called Spiritual Communication April 6th, 1853. What I would suggest is that instead of thinking of this as dead people appeared to them, it didn’t just say that. They arose, they appeared to them, and they ministered unto them. Well, they might have been communicating information that these Nephites would need to be able to do work for them or for their ancestors who they didn’t have records for so that we could then do that work. That’s amazing.

John Bytheway: 16:01 That’s exactly what happened. What Elder Pratt said, “All of those who are dead in the body anyway came and visited the living.” That’s great.

Hank Smith: 16:09 Can I share something that is based on this conversation between Jesus and Nephi? I can see the Lord saying something like this to me. He looks at my journal and he says, “I thought that you and I had this, fill in the blank, sacred experience’.”

  16:25 “Yes, yes we did. I did have that sacred experience.” Jesus said to Him, Hank, “How be it that you have not written this thing? You had this incredible experience. Why didn’t you write it?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 16:41 I mean, I wonder how many times we have an experience and then upon reflection we’re like, “Surely the Lord was with me during that and I knew it not.” And if we don’t record those events, maybe we’ll never know or at least not in mortality. “Surely the Lord is in this place and I knew it not.”

Hank Smith: 17:00 Oh man, so good. And in moments where I am having a hard day, sometimes I’ll open up that note that I have made and review those experiences. It is a soothing thing.

  17:12 Okay, Ross, we still have more chapters left. Where are we going to go next?

Dr. Ross Baron: 17:16 Okay, what we’re going to do now is the Savior is going to give them chapters 3 and 4 of Malachi. What I think is significant here is, number one, I brought this up earlier. “It came to pass,” I’m in chapter 24, verse 1, “that He commanded them that they should write the words which the Father had given them to Malachi.” And then he quotes, we’re going to start in Malachi 3:1, “Behold, I will send my messenger.” By the way, I think it’s super interesting. Malachi, Malachi in Hebrew means my messenger. “I will send my messenger. And this messenger, I think John the Baptist, Joseph Smith, there’s others, “He shall prepare the way before me and the Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His temple.”

  17:57 Again, remember I brought up in Isaiah chapter 2, 2 Nephi chapter 12, if there is no temple, there is no Zion. If there is no Zion, there is no second coming. If there is no second coming, there is no millennium. He has to come to the temple, even the messenger of the covenant. And then he asks this question verse 2, “But who may abide the day of his coming and who shall stand when he appeareth?”

  18:17 I want people to understand that question is in every single one of our standard works. This question, “Who may abide the day of his coming? Or who shall stand when he appeareth?” It’s in the Old Testament, Malachi chapter 3, verse 2. It’s in the New Testament, Revelation chapter 6, verse 17. It’s in the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 24:2, which I’m reading right now. It’s in the Doctrine and Covenants section 128 verse 24. And it’s in the Pearl of Great Price in Joseph Smith history when Moroni quotes in chapter 1 verse 36 the entire third chapter of Malachi to the prophet, to the boy Joseph.

  18:54 That question is in every single one of the standard works something we ought to listen to. And I believe that this chapter then and chapter 4 help us answer the question, “Who shall abide the day of His coming? Who shall stand when he appeareth?” That’s what the purpose of the Father commanding Jesus to include Malachi chapter 3 and chapter 4.

  19:22 So then he says, “Why? Because when Jesus shows up,” end of verse 2, “He’s going to be a refiner’s fire and a fuller’s soap.” What’s he going to do? “He’s going to sit as a refiner,” I’m in verse 3, “and purifier of silver.” And who’s he going to purge? “He’s going to purify the sons of Levi.” To what end? “That they’re going to offer unto the Lord an offering and righteousness.” But begs the question, number one, who are the sons of Levi? And number two, what’s the offering?

  19:48 Well, if we could go to section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants for a minute, the oath and covenant of the priesthood, which is given in section 84, verse 33, “For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I’ve spoken. The magnifying of their calling are sanctified by the spirit unto the renewal of their bodies.” Notice 34, “They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron.” In other words, any righteous Melchizedek priesthood holder becomes, because of that covenant oath and covenant, a son of Levi. It was not just Levites who are being purified, it’s the entire body of priesthood, the holders of the priesthood as President Oaks would ask us to do. “All the body of the holders of the priesthood are going to be purified.” To what end? “So that we can offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.”

  20:37 Now, in searching Isaiah, Isaiah 66, he’s going to talk about what this offering is in the latter days. I’m in, Isaiah 66, verse 19. “I will set a sign among them.” Now, we’ve already talked about the sign, Book of Mormon. He’s going to send those that escape, i.e, those who have been gathered “to declare my glory among the Gentiles”. We’re talking about missionaries, we’re talking about we’re people who are doing the work for God. And notice what they’re going to do. “They shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations.” That’s verse 20. How’s he going to bring them? Upon horses, chariots, litters, mules, swift beasts. Meaning, “Every single possible way, we’re bringing them.” To where? “To my holy mountain, Jerusalem, to the temple, saith the Lord as the children of Israel bring an offering and a clean vessel into the House of the Lord. And I will also take them for priests and for Levites saith the Lord.” Section 84, 33 and 34.

  21:40 Isaiah saw this happening. The offering is not animals, it’s people. We are being purified so that we can do God’s work. And when we do God’s work, we become more like him to be able to abide the day and stand when he appeareth.

John Bytheway: 21:56 That’s awesome. I’m thinking of when John the Baptist came and conferred the Aaronic Priesthood and he used that language, that the sons of Levi may yet offer unto the Lord an offering and righteousness.

Hank Smith: 22:08 I love that. Part of this offering is people being refined, so I should expect to be refined. The Come, Follow Me manual for this lesson has a link to a video called the Refiner’s Fire. It’s not one of those doctrines I love. I do want to be refined, but I don’t. Does that make sense?

John Bytheway: 22:29 It does.

Hank Smith: 22:30 I do want to be refined, but I don’t want it to hurt. I want to be refined in a hammock with a lemonade.

John Bytheway: 22:40 Hank, what’s the line of How Firm A Foundation? “When through fiery trials thy pathway may lie, My grace, all sufficient, shall be thy supply. The flame shall not hurt thee. I only design thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.” When you’re in the furnace of affliction, just remember he’s refining you.

Hank Smith: 23:03 So hard. Ross, what’s a fuller’s soap?

Dr. Ross Baron: 23:06 The fuller’s soap is not just the laundry, it’s this lye and this dye that is brutal to almost take the skin off your body. I mean it is that kind of soap that the fullers would use, especially in this one part of the Kidron Valley right outside where the temple might’ve been. That’s how they clean things. It’s a brutal… This isn’t the nice soap you have in your home right now. It’s not that kind of soap.

  23:35 When I was young and I got called to be in a bishopric with a man who’s passed away, his name was Richard Winder, we were in the bishopric together. Richard Winder mentored us. There was a woman in our ward whose husband had committed suicide and she had three little kids. She was angry, she was sad. I mean, she was all of these things. When you talk furnace of affliction, I can’t even communicate to you sufficiently the difficulty this was.

  24:07 There were some things I thought. Again, I was young. I’m talking 27, 26, and I thought she was doing some things that were wrong and I’d brought it up with Bishop Winder in bishopric a couple of times. I said, “Are you going to talk to so-and-so? Are you going to sister so-and-so?” And he was like, “Yeah, yeah.” And I was like, “Because you know, man, I’d like to be a fly on the wall when you talk to her like. Man, this is going to be great. You’re such a great bishop. And man, you’ll really talk to her.”

  24:33 Finally, it came around that he met with her. We had bishopric meeting after that and I said, “Hey, how did it go with sister so-and-so?” And he said, “Yeah, she told me all these things that are going on in her life.” And I said, “Yeah, what’d you say?” He said, “I came around from my desk and I held her hand and I said, ‘That makes me weep.’ And then we cried together.” And the second he said it, I knew that’s exactly what the Savior would’ve done.

  25:02 You know what it did? It healed her. Your question, Hank, it’s not always the right answer, but sometimes I think we have to sit with people and not say anything except to be there. I don’t know if you guys know this, but I had stage 4 cancer. I had surgery, I had chemotherapy, I had radiation. It was touch and go. It was bad. I had people that would come and just sit with me and be with me. It was super comforting and awesome, like you don’t have to say anything, the fact that you’re there. Sometimes saying something can actually come off trite, cliche and not helpful. Now I’m not saying all the time that’s the case, but I think we can sit with people and be there with them, mourn with those that mourn. That being there can be the kind of comfort as pastors and we can just be with people, and that I think can be the best thing possible. That’s been my experience.

Hank Smith: 26:04 I don’t want to be burned in the fiery furnace speaking of the refiner’s fire. And if God wants to, he’ll save me. But if not… All right Ross, let’s keep going.

Dr. Ross Baron: 26:15 So I do also think there are three attitudes that we have to avoid that are in 3 Nephi 24, Malachi chapter 3. Verse 7, “Even from the days of your fathers, you are gone away from mine ordinances, have not kept them.” Then he says this, “Return unto me and I will return unto you.” Powerful. “But ye say, ‘Wherein shall we return?’.”

  26:39 Attitude number one to absolutely 100% avoid is if you don’t think you need to repent. If you somehow think in church or the prophet or whatever or the spirit, the scripture study that it’s pinching your collar a little bit that you need to change and you’re like, “I don’t need to change,” no, that’s an attitude we have to avoid.

  27:00 Number two, will a man rob God? Yet, you have robbed me, but you say wherein have we robbed thee? The second thing we have to avoid, you have to have an attitude that says, “I am going to put my money where my mouth is.” Some of you guys know that… And this is my experience, so I can’t generalize church-wide, but most people who’ve been to the temple, endowed members without a current temple recommend, it’s not the Sabbath, it’s not the law of chastity and it’s not the word of wisdom. My experience, it’s almost always tithing.

  27:37 I don’t want to have a tithing lesson necessarily here. I want us to zoom out a little bit. It’s about recognizing that all that we have comes from God and that He’s asking for a little bit back. Giving that back is as good for your heart and as good for your soul as anything you do. This idea, “Wherein have we robbed thee? Wherein shall we return?” We have to avoid those.

Hank Smith: 28:03 Ross, I’m so glad you’re bringing this up. This is a tough one. I think you hit it right on. Tithing is for the tithe-payer. It is meant to bless you. “Why does God need my money? Why does the church need my money?” No, it’s, “Why do you need to pay tithing?” It is for you.

Dr. Ross Baron: 28:24 I had a brother come to me who had been baptized, he and his whole family, this was down in southern California. He was an Aaronic priesthood holder. Faithful, coming to church, family coming to church. Brought him in and I said, “We want to ordain you to become an Elder,” and he goes, “Oh no, I won’t do that.” I said, “Why?” He says, “Because you’re going to make me pay to do that.”

  28:42 “I don’t know. What do you mean?”

  28:44 “Tithing,” he goes, “If I don’t pay tithing. So you’re making me pay to do that.” And I said, “Oh, no, no, no, no. We’re not making you pay to do that, but if you don’t do that, you can’t be a Melchizedek priesthood holder because you’d be a thief.” And he goes, “What?” I go, “You’re a thief right now and that’s why we can’t ordain you an Elder.” He goes, “I don’t understand.” So we read this passage. You not paying tithing isn’t about God needs your money. It’s about your heart and your soul. And while you’re not paying tithing, you’re a thief. The good end of that story is he paid tithing and became a good Elder.

Hank Smith: 29:23 When the Lord says in verse 9, “You’re cursed with a curse,” that’s not the Lord cursing you because you haven’t paid. That’s you cursing yourself because you didn’t pay. That is such a difficult concept to learn. It reminds me of when Jesus says, asks to Peter, “Do you love me more than these? Do you love me more than these?” Because that’s what this is about. Where is your heart? I personally need a check on my life where the Lord frequently asks me, “Am I still number one in your life?” Yes, you are. “Am I still number one in your life?” Every month we have to have this interview because it could creep up on me and destroy me.

John Bytheway: 30:04 Over the years, I’ve heard so many different speakers, motivational, inspirational, whatever, not of our faith. It’s amazing how many of them recommend that you should tithe, they say.

  30:18 I was at a meeting one time where Elder Ballard was speaking. Hank, it was 1997. They were talking about the sesquicentennial of the pioneers coming into the Salt Lake Valley. Elder Ballard’s telling the story. Elder Packer and I were back east talking to New York reporters trying to drum up support. So first President Packer got up in front of all these reporters and he said, “We are here to answer all of your questions. I will answer the easy ones. Elder Ballard will answer the hard ones. And I will decide which ones are easy and which ones are hard.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 30:51 That’s great.

John Bytheway: 30:52 Elder Ballard said, “There were two things, two questions. No matter how hard we tried to answer them, we could not satisfy these New York reporters. Number one, how do you get people to pay tithing and how do you get those young people to go on missions?”

  31:07 Reminds me of that talk somebody gave about hearing the music of the gospel. I saw a poster at BYU in the copy center once that said, “Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.” For me, I look at tithing and I say, “I wish all of the commandments were as easy as this one.” Maybe it’s because I don’t earn much or something. But I have a calculator. This is cake. This is so easy.

  31:34 When I was on my mission, Elder Robert L. Simpson came and spoke to the missionaries. I wasn’t there. It was a week before I got there. My companion told me, “Elder Simpson talked about thank you for this sacrifice and your time.” And then he said, “Sister Simpson got up and said, ‘Oh, all this talk about sacrifice. Baloney. It’s the least you could do’.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 31:56 That’s awesome. Remember we’re answering the question, “Who may abide the day of his coming? Who shall stand when he appeareth?” This is the question we’re answering. This is what this is preparing me for. Can you imagine, Hank, the Savior shows up and you can’t abide the day or you can’t stand because you did love that more than Him? You talk about weeping and wailing and gnashing your teeth. And by the way, you’d think for nothing. That was the stupidest thing I ever did, but that takes a certain kind of heart, a certain kind of faith, a certain kind of person who loves the Lord. That’s number two.

John Bytheway: 32:34 Yeah, read the Book of Acts if you feel like holding anything back.

Hank Smith: 32:39 In my mind, the reason the church teaches tithing is to 100% bless the tithe payer.

Dr. Ross Baron: 32:50 Amen. 100% agree.

Hank Smith: So Ross, attitude number one, “I don’t need to repent.” Attitude number two, “I’m not going to pay my tithing. I’m not going to give.” What’s attitude three?

Dr. Ross Baron 33:02 Attitude three, verse 13, “Your words have been stout against me, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, ‘What have we spoken against thee?’.” This is the attitude. Here we say, “It is vain to serve God. What doth it profit that we have kept his ordinances and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of hosts? We call the proud happy. They that work wickedness are set up. Yea that tempt God are even delivered.”

  33:27 That is this attitude that somehow by keeping the commandments, we’re not blessed like the world, we don’t profit like the world. Those kinds of things aren’t happening, so why in the world should we do it? We have to avoid that particular attitude.

  33:46 Psalm 73, by the way, we’re not going to get into it, but it’s a beautiful chapter where David is having this attitude and then he says, ‘Until I went to the House of the Lord, then I got my perspective.”

  34:00 I think of President Nelson, think Celestial. Think Celestial here. “Don’t be mistaken by the world. What doth it profit that we’ve kept his ordinances? What? We call the proud happy. They that work wickedness are set up. Don’t buy into this trap.” And this is the third attitude. “Then they that fear the Lord spake often one to another and the Lord hearkened and heard. Book of remembrance is written before him. For them that feared the Lord thought upon his name.” And then I love this, “They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts. We bind ourselves to him”, we get his hesed, according to President Nelson, “his everlasting kindness, his love, his mercy.”

  34:36 “When I make up my jewels,” we’re back to Exodus 19, his private personal property, he makes up his jewels and then he says this, “and I will spare them as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.”

  34:50 Now back in 3 Nephi, were connecting these chapters. In 3 Nephi 9, verse 13, he said, “I spared you.” In chapter 10 verses 6, 10, 12, 13 and 18, he uses the word spare. “I spared all of you.” They were his because I believe they were able to abide the day. They were able to stand when he appeared because they didn’t have these attitudes and they will be spared. Verse 18, “Then shall ye return and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.” We can’t fully understand that now, but at a certain point, we’ll be able to discern that. I love this chapter.

John Bytheway: 35:35 Love that, return and discern. One day you’ll come back and you’ll be able to tell the difference and it’s not what you’re saying right now.

Dr. Ross Baron: 35:43 Exactly. It’s not what you’re saying right now. I think we got to be careful. It’s not for me to make any kind of external judgment about that. I’m going to judge my own soul on this. I’m not going to worry about the external, but I have to guard against that attitude. I have to be careful.

Hank Smith: 35:59 The third attitude you talked about there, Ross, seems to me like a transactional relationship. It’s like a cold contract versus a warm relationship.

Dr. Ross Baron: 36:09 Cold contract versus warm covenant.

Hank Smith: 36:11 Yeah, this isn’t about what he can do for me. This is what he’s already done for me. I want to enter into a relationship with him no matter what that looks like.

Dr. Ross Baron: 36:22 Elder Renlund I think has really re-emphasized this. “I don’t want my children to do right. I want them to choose to do right.” Isn’t that what we really want for our kids? I want them to choose. They choose. And so we talk a lot about that in my family. “Don’t do it because I said. Do it because you know it’s right and you want to do it.”

  36:44 Hank, I think your point is we got to avoid this attitude, transactional. Then he’s going to go into this super famous chapter. Verse 1 is chilling of 3 Nephi 25, “For behold, today cometh that shall burn as an oven. And all the proud yea and all that do wickedly shall be stubble.” Those are two interesting characteristics of those who will be stubble, is pride and wickedness. “And the day cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts that shall leave unto them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name,” back to that, “shall the son of righteousness, Jesus Christ, arise with healing in his wings and then we’re going to be treated like calves in the stall we’ll be taken care of.”

  37:26 Then verse 3, John, back to your Micah prophecy, “Ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.” This is the Micah prophecy, but it’s played out not because of something violence we did, but because of Jesus Christ coming, because of the second coming, because of the things that are going to occur not because he’s mad but because they’re going to bring it upon themselves. There’s symbolic and literal things going on here.

  37:53 For me, this is so powerful. Verse 5, “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” Comment here. The word great I’ve heard so many times in gospel doctrine. Somebody will say, “It’s great for the righteous and dreadful for the wicked.” But the word great there is the Hebrew word gadol, which doesn’t mean awesome or cool. It means huge. It means big. “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the huge, big and dreadful day of the Lord.” And by the way, I love when the Savior says, “It’s going to happen like the lightning coming out of the east, the sun is rising. Every eye shall see. The glory of the Lord shall be revealed. All flesh shall see it together.” Section 88, “The veil of his tabernacle will be removed.” Section 101, “The veil o’er the earth will be removed.” We’re going to all see the Lord. And it’s huge and it is dreadful because it’s serious business. The Savior is coming.

  38:49 But before that day, Elijah’s going to come. Now, I was raised as a Jew and we had Passover. Every single year we had Passover. I know both of you have done multiple Passover’s. What you do in the Passover is you make a place for Elijah. And at a certain point in the Passover Seder, you open the door for Elijah to come in.

  39:09 Now, the question we should be asking is, Elijah doesn’t live for 500 years after Exodus chapter 12, after the Passover. Why in the world are Jews setting a place for Elijah during the recounting of the Exodus? Do y’all follow the question? There’s no natural connection between the Passover, the deliverance and Elijah. There’s no natural connection. I believe that the rabbis, the sages through the centuries are beckoning the Messiah to come, but what they do is they include Elijah at the Passover Seder as a way to invite, as a way to hope, and as a way to beckon the Messiah Jesus Christ to come. That’s why they set the table for Elijah.

  40:06 I did that my whole life. Most of your listeners might know that on April 3rd, 1836 he did come. April 3rd, 1836 was during the Passover. While Jews worldwide were opening their doors for Elijah to come in, Elijah did come to the Lord’s house to His servant and to bestow upon Him particular keys or permission to use the priesthood a particular way so that the gathering of Israel, now we’re going to tie this all up, so that the Abrahamic covenant could be 100% fulfilled for not just the living but for the dead so that every single soul from Adam to the last soul will have the opportunity to hear the gospel.

  40:53 I believe that the work for missionary work on earth and the work for the dead are the greatest evidences of the truthfulness of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, of the nature of Jesus Christ, and of the divine mission of the prophet Joseph Smith. It makes no other sense any other way. Elijah coming, Jesus quoting this as He’s about to end day two demonstrates how we’re going to gather Israel in its fullest way to completely get the Abrahamic covenant as he promised.

John Bytheway: 41:30 Planting in the hearts the promises made to the fathers, trying to teach this idea to your children. How would you describe what are roots and what are branches?

Dr. Ross Baron: 41:39 I was once at a dinner with all my relatives and not one of my living relatives is a member of the church. They’re super supportive, very interested, but it can be a little touchy because I do lots of family history and they know what I’m doing. So we were at this big dinner table and one of my cousins from England, as a matter of fact, people are talking and there’s probably 25 people there and he said, “Ross, why do you do all that family history work?” And it was like the record went… And the lights went down and it was on me. Every single person was focused on me. And I said, “You know that prophecy at the end of the Hebrew Bible from Malachi? It says the hearts of the fathers are going to turn to the children and the children to the fathers so that we can have roots and branches. The roots, these beautiful roots are my ancestors and the branches are my children and grandchildren. He goes like this, “That’s beautiful.”

  42:40 And then the record player started again and the lights go back on, metaphorically speaking of course. It was this beautiful moment where I was able to use the scripture, put it in context for them, and it made total sense. I go, “That’s why I’m doing family history, so we’ll know who our roots are, what our branches can expect, and our hearts will turn to our fathers and our children can have that beautiful opportunity I had.”

Hank Smith: 43:03 That’s fantastic. As I read chapter 25 verse one and you think, “Oh the Lord sounds mean here. The proud and the wicked will burn,” I’m quick to point out to my children it’s the wickedness and the pride which burns. It’s not the Lord, the Lord is saying, “Hey, here’s the natural result of pride and wickedness.” You’ll burn up and you’ll destroy your family. You’ll be left without a root or a branch. I wrote by verse 1, “Pride and wickedness destroy families.” I think that’s the essence of verse 1.

Dr. Ross Baron: 43:38 And the converse that if I’m humble and striving for righteousness, then I stand when he appeareth and I abide the day. There you have the beautiful parallels and the converse of what you just said. Pride and wickedness destroy families, humility and righteousness. Isaiah chapter 54, 3 Nephi 22, “Thou shalt be established in righteousness.” How do I abide the day of the Lord? Well, he tells us how to abide. That’s beautiful what you just said. We got to make sure we get the positive side as well.

Hank Smith: 44:10 Elijah is coming to help families be righteous and humble and sealed so that the earth isn’t wasted.

Dr. Ross Baron: 44:19 We testify to the whole world without reservation, without qualification, that Elijah in fact did come back and did bestow the keys that the priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and that this part of the prophecy, verse 5, is fulfilled. Check. It’s done. Hank, your point earlier, he’s talking about a future day. A lot of these things are fulfilled. This is happening right now.

John Bytheway: 44:49 I love that President Nelson, as he defined gathering of Israel, added what? Six words: on both sides of the veil.

Dr. Ross Baron: 44:58 You want to have a fun experience, go do baptisms, initiatory work, endowment and sealings and count how many times they repeat the person’s name. Think about that. Every single person will have their name lovingly repeated. And again, you do the exercise where you count from baptism all the way to the sealing. How many times we repeat their name? Wow. “I have not forgotten my people.” Remember the purpose of the Book of Mormon, “So that they’ll know they were not cast off forever.”

Hank Smith: 45:31 Looking at 3 Nephi 25 with you, Ross, has helped bring some depth to this statement. You might recognize it. “Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the family is central to the creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children.” That’s 3 Nephi 25.

Dr. Ross Baron: 45:51 Amen. Amen. Wow, that’s great.

Hank Smith: 45:55 Ross, you’ve walked us through these very textually deep chapters as you said. We’re in our last one, 3 Nephi 26. So what do you want to see?

Dr. Ross Baron: 46:02 3 Nephi 26, Mormon seems to, now he’s going to insert himself and do some editing and some summarizing. Sometimes it’s not super clear, Are we at the end of day two? Is day three started? In fact, is it more than that because he’s going to say in verse 13, “I would that you should behold the Lord truly did teach the people for the space of three days. And after he did show himself unto them oft and did break bread oft and bless it and give unto them.”

  46:31 Mormon starts to do some editing, but clearly I believe that he’s talking about day two. By the way, Hank, you brought up earlier verse 6, “There cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people.” Meaning we should be super careful about how we take what he did include because he’s saying in fact, verse 8 and 9, seems to be like, “I’m going to try my people.” I want to see how seriously take this and then I’ll give them more. And if they don’t take it seriously, I’m going to take it away.”

  47:04 Love your point there, but there’s something about the nature of Christ that has always been amazing to me. And that is in verse 14, “And it came to pass that he did teach and minister unto the children of the multitude of whom hath been spoken.” The children, the children are there. “And he did loose their tongues and they did speak unto their father’s great and marvelous things, even greater than He, Jesus, had revealed unto the people. And he loosed their tongues that they could utter.”

  47:36 There’s a bunch of things we could comment, I think, about that verse. I love to ask a question, and that is, what does this teach me about Christ? One of the things that I love about this is that he was okay not to have taught the coolest stuff. He let little children speak things greater than he revealed unto the people and I’m thinking, “I kind of want to teach the cool stuff.” And the Savior’s like, “No, this is good. That four-year-old over there, he’s going for it with the gathering of Israel right now. This is great.”

  48:11 I like to think about how that teaches me about Christ. He is thrilled when his children are doing things that he loves and he’s okay that they’re in the limelight, like that’s okay. That even greater than he had done. He then says at the end of verse 16, “Behold, it came to pass on the morrow that the multitude gathered themselves together and they both saw and heard these children. Yea, even babes did open their mouths and utter marvelous things. And the things which they did utter were forbidden that there should not any man write them.” Again, character of Christ.

  48:49 Can you imagine some astonished parents? Can you imagine your twin boys, Hank, uttering amazing doctrinal truths and you’d be just like, “They never acted like that in family night.”

Hank Smith: 49:00 Yeah. I’d say, “You must have a great father. That’s what I’d say.” Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Ross Baron: 49:06 There’s other things we could say, but I think in terms of I love that Mormon edits this, then we get these beautiful windows about what happened with the children. But again, if we take it back to what does it teach me about Jesus Christ, I think it teaches us about the character of the Savior.

John Bytheway: 49:22 I love, Ross, that you started out with Jesus saying, “Okay, now listen to their words, the 12.” And then we watched the character of Christ and quoting Isaiah and quoting Micah and quoting Malachi. They didn’t know Malachi because Lehi left before Malachi, and yet I want you to have the words of Malachi. He could have said, “Well, I’ll just tell you,” but he honored his prophet enough that he gave credit to Malachi for those words. I credit whatever it is. He demonstrated what you said in 3 Nephi 19, “Now listen to their words. And then now listen to some babes and some children speak even greater things.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 50:07 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 50:07 Wonderful. If you look at the last two verses of 3 Nephi 26, there’s a feeling about it. Jesus has visited. And it says in verse 17, “The disciples whom Jesus had chosen from that time forth were baptizing and teaching.” Verse 18, “They saw and heard unspeakable things. Verse 19, “They taught and did minister to one to another.” This is all the members. They had all things in common. They’re honest with each other. They tried to do everything I should say. And Mormon says, “They did do all things that Jesus had commanded them.”

  50:43 It’s the same way I’m feeling at least in a way today, Ross, when you dig into the words of Jesus and you really study. It’s kind of the natural result. There’s this goodness that comes into their lives after he is there. And of course for Nephi, we know it lasts a really long time. I don’t know.

  51:00 Ross, your lesson here will last me a couple of hours at least. But you’ve dug into the words of Jesus and there’s a blessing that comes from doing what you just did with us that can almost come in no other way, sit with the words of Jesus and seek to understand them. It’s an investment that pays dividends.

John Bytheway: 51:20 Love that.

Hank Smith: 51:21 Ross, before we let you go, I think our listeners would be interested in your thoughts on these few chapters that we’ve done, but the whole book in general. What are your thoughts on it? What do you think about it?

Dr. Ross Baron: 51:33 I appreciate that opportunity. I’d like to witness that the Book of Mormon basically says that it is one of its main purposes is testify to the world that Jesus is the Christ and that the covenants of the Father are going to be fulfilled. I think we’ve seen today in a microcosm that that is true.

  51:51 My witness to people would be that the Book of Mormon, if taken seriously like President Benson said, you will feel the spirit of the book. It will testify of Jesus being the Christ and it will testify of the restoration of the gospel through his prophet Joseph Smith and that there are prophets on earth today. I cannot overemphasize that. And feel the power of the book. And I have hope that people have felt the power of the book as we’ve studied it today. I know that it’s true and I know not because of study, which I do know that part, but I want to be careful. I want to say like Alma chapter 5, “I fasted and prayed many days and the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that it’s true. And I know that.”

Hank Smith: 52:35 John, what a day. We were very blessed.

John Bytheway: 52:37 I can’t wait for my roots and branches to hear this.

Hank Smith: 52:40 Yeah, I love it. I love it. Thanks, John.

Dr. Ross Baron: 52:43 That’s great.

Hank Smith: 52:44 With that, we want to thank Dr. Ross Baron for spending his time with us. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. And at the end of every episode, those of you who listen all the way to the end, you know that we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have more 3 Nephi to look at on followHIM.