Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name’s Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my great co-host, John Bytheway. John, we are now well into the Book of Mormon, Second Nephi. We’ve spent time last week with Dr. Jan Martin, looking at Second Nephi, three through five, and she showed us some things I’d never seen before. What are you thinking about when we hit second Nephi, 6 through 10?

John Bytheway: 00:00:29 Well, the one thing I was thinking about was that 2 Nephi 9 is in there. We know that Jacob has his own book that’s only seven chapters, but we get to hear from Jacob in some of these chapters and Second Nephi 9 is a profoundly wonderful chapter.

Hank Smith: 00:00:45 When you think of the Book of Mormon and the doctrines of the Book of Mormon, Second Nephi 9 should come right to mind. The thing I’ve been thinking about, John, is the way this lesson finishes. If you go to Second Nephi 10, verses 23, 24 and 25, this lesson finishes with such an uplifting few statements. “Cheer up your hearts. Remember, you’re free to act for yourselves. You can choose the way of eternal life,” talks about the power of the Atonement and being received into the eternal kingdom of God.

  00:01:15 So knowing that’s where we’re going to end up gets me excited to see what we’re going to learn. John, we’re joined today by a man who needs no introduction, Dr. Bob Millet. Bob, what are we looking forward to today in these chapters? I know they’re some of your favorites.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:01:30 I think Jacob may have been the most powerful philosopher/theologian of the Book of Mormon. Jacob has such profound thought and he obviously learned much of it from his dad, Lehi. You read Second Nephi 2, and if you were to jump then to 9, you could see what a wonderful flow it is. It’s interesting that the chapters that precede 6, 7, 8, almost deal exclusively with the gathering of Israel. Over and over and over, the gathering, the gathering, God will not forget you. Can a woman forget her sucking child? And so forth. Over and over and over, the gathering of Israel.

  00:02:11 And even in the opening verses of Chapter 9, you’re reading along and you find yourself saying, “Okay, he has just quoted in Chapter 6 and 7 from Isaiah,” and then there’s this sudden leap, I think it’s a sudden one anyway. By the time you get to verse 1, he’s talking about the gathering, following up on what’s been talked about. And then out of the blue, by verses 5 and 6, he’s talking about the Atonement of Christ.

  00:02:43 Now, where’s the transition here? See what you think about this idea. It occurred to me one day when I was reading this that the scriptures teach us, especially in Moses 6, “All things bear witness of him, of Christ.” When you read those opening verses and you jump from there to Atonement for the rest of the chapter basically, Chapter 9, well, maybe we’re talking about types and shadows here. That is to say the scattering of Israel is a type of the fall of Adam and Eve. The gathering of Israel is the type of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. All things bear witness of him, including the scattering and gathering of Israel. Does that make any sense?

Hank Smith: 00:03:28 Absolutely. The Fall and the Atonement.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:03:32 There’s so much here for us to see and understand, obviously more than we’re going to have time to understand, but I see those opening chapters as very important, but they’re leading up to 9 and they’re laying the foundation for gathering as we’re going to say about 10 times today. The gathering is first and foremost to Jesus Christ. It’s not to a land, it’s not to a place, it’s to a person. That’s where we come to Second Nephi 9. I’m excited to get into this because while there’s so many wonderful things in 6, 7 and 8, I think we ought to just jump to 9.

Hank Smith: 00:04:11 Let’s spend our time wisely. Really, Chapter 9 is a highlight. If Joseph Smith only gave us this chapter, he’s a prophet and it’s one of many. Now, John, if you would’ve told me when I was a brand new seminary teacher years ago that I was going to sit and have conversations with the likes of Bob Millet, I never would’ve believed you. Bob has had a prolific career in church education, but introduce him for maybe the rare handful that don’t know that much about him.

John Bytheway: 00:04:41 We are delighted to have Dr. Robert L. Millet, former Dean of Religious Education at BYU. He’s Emeritus Professor now. He’s retired. He’s a beloved speaker, author of somewhere between 3,000 and 4,000 books, and he recently received a mission call and I thought it might be fun to have you tell us about that.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:05:04 Yeah, my wife and I are excited. We decided we wanted to do a church education mission. Although I get a number of opportunities to speak still, I miss the in-class experience of working with students and watching them come alive to the gospel. And you don’t always get what you request as a senior missionary, but we requested the Institute of Religion at Southern Virginia University and we were fortunate to get that request. And so we’ll start there soon. It’s a beautiful campus. They’re great students. There’s such a sweet spirit there. I thought, “I want to go there. I want us to go there.”

John Bytheway: 00:05:42 I hope those students there know what they have.

Hank Smith: 00:05:44 Now, Bob, we better get underway. As I was looking at the 14 or 15 pages of scripture for this week’s lesson, I don’t know if a section of scripture is more rich with doctrine. Really, you got to work hard to understand these chapters of Isaiah and then to understand where Jacob goes with those. Let me give you an introduction here from the Come, Follow Me manual and then let’s walk through it.

  00:06:12 2 Nephi, 6 through 10. The title of the lesson is, Oh, How Great The Plan of Our God. “It had been at least 40 years since Lehi’s family left Jerusalem. They were in a strange new land, half a world away from Jerusalem. Lehi had died and his family had already started what would become a centuries-long contention between the Nephites, who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God, and the Lamanites who did not. Jacob, who was Nephi’s younger brother and was now ordained as a teacher for the Nephites, wanted the covenant people to know God would never forget them, so they must never forget him. This is a message we surely need today.” Then they quote Jacob here, 2 Nephi 10, “Let us remember him, for we are not cast off. Great are the promises of the Lord. Among these promises, none is greater than the promise of an infinite Atonement to overcome death and hell. Therefore, Jacob concluded, cheer up your hearts.”

  00:07:06 With that Bob, we’re taking on 15 pages of doctrinal and prophetic teachings from both Isaiah and Jacob. How are we going to get through it all? Where do you want to start?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:07:16 Chapters 6 and 7 and 8 deal with… Especially 7 and 8, deal with the gathering of Israel. That’s where we start. Consequently, it’s not too unusual that Chapter 9, which is the chapter we want to spend most of our time on, begins with the same thing. I just want to read first 1 and 2 and then make a comment. “And now my beloved brethren, I’ve read these things that you might know concerning the covenants of the Lord, that he has covenanted with all the house of Israel, that he has spoken unto the Jews by the mouth of his holy prophets, even from the beginning, down from generation to generation until the time comes that they shall be restored to the true church and fold of God, when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance and shall be established in all their lands of promise.”

  00:08:11 We already understand that the gathering of Israel is always first and foremost to the Savior. We’re gathered first to Christ, to a person, not to a place. Secondarily, we’re gathered to a place in the sense anciently, they would be gathered to a land or a place where they could settle as a people. In our day, people are gathered to a place in the sense that they’re gathered to the congregations where they are as members of the church.

  00:08:38 Well, 2 Nephi 9 adds a detail or two that is we’re gathered to Christ first then later to lands, but look at that language, “Shall be restored to the true church and fold of God when they shall be gathered home to the lands of their inheritance.” The gathering is to Christ, to his church, which is the fold, but I would add back in 1 Nephi 15, we are gathered such that we come to the true points of doctrine that Nephi mentions. So we’re gathered to Christ, we’re gathered to his church, we’re gathered to his doctrine. This is not just geographical movement, this is movement toward Christ and his kingdom.

  00:09:22 These first two verses get us started and I’ll just mention, as I thought about this through the years, it seems almost like an abrupt jump from the first few verses to suddenly we’re talking about Atonement. Until one day it hit me that maybe what we’re doing here is Jacob is suggesting that the scattering of Israel is like unto the Fall of Adam and Eve. The gathering of Israel is like unto the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It isn’t really a jump. He’s talking about a form of scattering and a form of gathering and the greatest gathering of course, is to Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:10:03 Bob, I wonder if you could even add creation there. The creation of the covenant, the scattering of the covenant people, the gathering. You’ve got Creation, Fall, Atonement, the pillars of eternity.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:10:15 The creation of the covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and how often that comes up in the Book of Mormon. The promises made to the fathers, the promises made to the fathers that we would read in Genesis 13, 15, 17 but more powerfully in Abraham Chapter 2. So yes, let’s go down to verse 6. “For as death hath passed upon all men to fulfill the merciful plan of the great creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall, and the fall came by reason of transgression, and because man became fallen they were cut off from the presence of the Lord.” There we have it again, creation, fall, atonement. “Therefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement, save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment, physical death, which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration,” and so on and so on.

  00:11:15 This concept of an infinite atonement, as you know, will come up again and again in the Book of Mormon, but here’s the first time that mention is made to an infinite atonement. In this case, it’s infinite in the sense that it is the answer to the infinite question or the infinite dilemma every human being will face as a result of the Fall, namely they’re going to die. It’s infinite in the sense that it overcomes the one thing that every human being will have in common with every other human being. They’re born as a mortal, they will die as a mortal. And so it’s infinite in that sense. As we know, it’s infinite in a number of ways, but here is the first mention of it in the Book of Mormon.

  00:12:00 I want to jump to 8 and 9. These are not easy verses, but it’s a great message. “O, the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace. For behold, if the flesh should rise no more,” that is if there were no resurrection, “Our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the eternal God and became the devil, to rise no more. And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God and to remain with the father of lies in misery like unto himself,” and so on.

  00:12:39 I remember Robert Matthews telling a story to a group of us once. He said, “When I was a teenager, we were sitting in Sunday school class and discussing a number of things and one student raised the question, ‘What would happen to us if there were no resurrection?’ And the teacher answered, ‘Well, I suppose what would happen is when we die, we’d go into the spirit world and then we would go to whatever kingdom of glory we would go to as spirits.'” Rob Matthews said, “Thought to myself, that’s reasonable, that makes good sense.” He said, “But later I came to appreciate when I read more of the Book of Mormon that our teacher didn’t yet understand Jacob.”

  00:13:16 These verses are pretty heavy because the question that can be raised here is why is it the case that if there were no resurrection, we would be subject to the devil? And we’re always talking about how the scriptures, the greatest commentary on scripture is scripture. And most of the time that means we’ll read something in the Bible and we can think of an occasion where Lehi or Nephi gave clarity to that issue, but I want to do something a little different. I want to use the Apostle Paul to bring some clarity to that question. If there were no resurrection, if there were no resurrection, why would we be subject to the devil and be angels to a devil?

  00:13:59 1 Corinthians 15, Paul, as you know, is talking to a group of people, some of whom have questions about rising from the dead, the resurrection, and basically, if Christ rose from the dead. I’m just going to read in 1 Corinthians 15, verses 12 through 17, and these are short. “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen? And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain and your faith is also vain? Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God because we’ve testified of God that he raised up Christ, whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised?” He said the same thing here about three times, but here’s the key verse, it’s 17, “And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins.”

  00:15:02 I think Jacob skipped a step or jumped a step theologically, but Paul lays it out for us, and that is if Christ did not rise from the dead as he prophesied he would do, as he predicted he would do, if he didn’t open the door for us to regain our body for this union of body and spirit, if he didn’t do that, if he didn’t have the power to do that, why should we believe he has the power to forgive people’s sins? We would go become angels of the devil because we would have no way whereby our sins could be forgiven. It’s not an obvious thing, but I think it’s a profound thing. No resurrection, no atonement. If he didn’t rise from the dead, why should we believe he could forgive our sins? Does that make sense?

John Bytheway: 00:15:52 I have a statement from a great scholar here. Let’s see, “What if a man had lived a good life, a commendable and noble life, why would such a one be subject to Satan in the world of spirits? Simply stated, if Christ did not rise from the grave as he stated he would do, then he was not the promised Messiah. If Christ has not the power to save the body from death, then he surely has not the power to save the spirit from hell. If he did not break the bands of death in the resurrection, then our hope of deliverance from sin through the Atonement is futile and unfounded.” And that’s Robert L. Millet in The Power of The Word.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:16:29 I thought it was awfully good.

John Bytheway: 00:16:31 Yeah. Didn’t you think, “Who said that? That was great.” That’s the part that really… Yeah, if he can’t save the body-

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:16:38 Why should we think he can save the spirit?

John Bytheway: 00:16:39 Yeah. Resurrection is part of the Atonement.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:16:43 That’s right. We sometimes think of them separately when it’s all one package. It’s the greatest dramatic illustration of joining two things that had been separated back together again. Things at one.

Hank Smith: 00:16:57 Bob, John, I have my students at BYU memorize a couple of quotes when we go through the Book of Mormon this first half, and one of those quotes that I make sure they know by the end of the semester is an older quote by Ezra Taft Benson. This is so crucial I think to these chapters. Ezra Taft Benson said, “Just as a man does not really desire food until he is hungry, so he does not desire the salvation of Christ until he knows why he needs Christ. No one adequately and properly knows why he needs Christ until he or she understands and accepts the doctrine of the Fall and its effect upon all mankind. Not just understands it, but accepts the doctrine of the Fall. No other book in the world explains this vital doctrine nearly as well as the Book of Mormon.”

  00:17:49 This is crucial, Bob. You and I texted about this before you came on, that so often we try to teach the Atonement without teaching the Fall and it’s ineffective. If someone does not understand and accept the Fall, why would I even need a Savior?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:18:05 And can I suggest why we perhaps have been weaker on that than we should be? I think it’s the case that in an effort not to come across as believing in the doctrine of human depravity, which is so common in Christianity, the doctrine of human depravity, that men and women are basically worthless, they are in sin, they are twisted, their heart is twisted, their desires are crooked and on and on and on, that so pervades Christendom, that we’ve tried to be careful not to go that way. But the Book of Mormon says you got to go that way, in the sense that you’ve got to at least understand that there was a Fall and that the Fall has a real effect upon us physically and spiritually. And you’re right. Later, way later we’ll have the brother of Jared saying in prayer to the Lord, “We know that because of the Fall our nature has become evil continually.”

  00:19:04 Now again, that’s not human depravity so much as we’re in the position where we are not going to make any progress unless there’s something that helps us overcome that Fall. Not only sanction what you say, but I want to reinforce it and that is if we don’t teach the Fall very well, then we’ll have young people, for example, who see Jesus as, “He’s my bud, he’s my helper, he’s my advisor. He’s my spiritual cheerleader,” instead of, “He’s the person who will redeem me from my sins. He’s the person who will forgive me, yes, but will eventually help me reach the point where I have no more desire for sin.” And you’re right, you’re only telling half the story if you just talk about Atonement, you don’t talk about Fall.

Hank Smith: 00:19:52 And so often we can find ourselves frustrated when we teach the Atonement over and over and over and someone doesn’t respond. Our students, our children, they don’t respond. You think, “Why are you not responding? This is such a beautiful doctrine.” It gets more beautiful when you understand how dark the Fall is and the position you’re truly in.

John Bytheway: 00:20:14 Yeah. I share that same President Benson quotation in my classes and I tell them, “If I could go back on my mission, one of the things I wish I had taught better,” because I remember people saying things like, “Well, this happened to me and I don’t believe in God ever since that,” or, “This tragedy happened,” and I wish I would’ve at 19 been able to go, “Thank you for saying that. May we come and teach you about the Fall and its effect upon all mankind and sickness and death and problems and all of the things that came with it?” And then we can understand the expansive nature of the Atonement as we’re going to get to in Alma 7.

  00:20:51 And I think I quote you Brother Millet, that Jesus is more than our best friend in heaven or our celestial cheerleader, that he’s the Lord God omnipotent and he is mighty to save and we are in trouble. I like the way you said that Hank, we’re all in trouble and maybe this is why we see Ammon and Aaron quote Creation, Fall, Atonement, just boom, boom, boom when they’re teaching King Lamoni and King Lamoni’s father because they wondered about death and the nature of death.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:21:21 Yeah, I think whereas Jacob is assuming the Fall, we might miss the fact that underlying all of this is the need for an Atonement, the dramatic need for an Atonement because of the effects of the Fall. Now again, we don’t believe people are depraved, but we do believe that the Fall takes a measurable effect on us mentally, spiritually, physically. We must have help from that, but you have to appreciate the sore or the malady before you appreciate the medication.

John Bytheway: 00:21:52 I’ve wondered too if here’s another type that the church was created, the church went through a fall and the church went through a restoration and atonement. I’ve wondered if that’s another type of the apostasy was the fall and the restoration was like the atonement bringing us back at one again.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:22:13 I think that’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:22:14 I’ve noticed that my own children, when we pray, they don’t like the Fall either, they just don’t know they’re describing it. “Please bless this food, that it will nourish and strengthen our bodies.” Right? “I don’t want to get sick. Please bless grandma and grandpa that they’ll never die. Please bless that we’ll have a good day.” It’s all I think we’re just praying over and over, “I don’t like the Fall, I don’t like the Fall, I don’t like the Fall.” That’s pretty much our prayers and if we can notice that, then all of a sudden, I think what President Benson says, you become hungry, you become aware that you need a Savior.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:22:50 Well, looking ahead, beginning with verse 10, “How great the goodness of our God, he prepares a way,” and he begins to talk about death and hell. Death meaning the physical body, hell meaning spiritual death. The physical death and the spiritual death. He calls, “The death of the body, the death of the spirit.” And so he gives here an intro to what Alma will deal with in Alma 40 in more detail. That is that at the time of death, as Joseph F. Smith taught, we undergo pre-judgment, a partial judgment as President Smith called it. That is we die and we either go to paradise, the abode of the righteous, or we go to what is called here hell, what is called variously elsewhere, spirit prison, what is elsewhere called outer darkness in Alma 40, one of two places, and he’s basically introducing that idea to us here, which Alma will spell out in greater detail.

  00:23:53 13 sums it up. “Oh, how great the plan of our God. For on the other hand, the paradise of God must deliver up the spirits of the righteous, and the grave deliver of the body of the righteous, and the spirit and the body is restored to itself again and all men become incorruptible and immortal and they are living souls.” Now, that’s exactly the same way Section 88 of the Doctrine & Covenants defines the soul, the spirit and the body constitute the soul.

  00:24:23 And by the time we get over to 15, 16, 17, he begins to extol the goodness of God, the righteousness of God, the greatness of God, the holiness. Look at verse 20, this is fascinating to me. “Oh, how great the holiness of our God, for he knoweth all things and there is not anything save he knows it.” When you think of holiness, are you thinking about God knowing all things? No. It’s a strange way of putting it, isn’t it?

  00:24:55 We would say, “The holiness of God because he’s perfect in all things.” No, this says holiness, the word holiness has a number of definitions, but one of them is this, that which is set apart, that which is set apart. God in many ways is set apart from you and me in that he knows all things and we don’t. The holiness of our God, it’s an unusual holiness of God for he knows all things, not anything save he knows it. Yeah. Have the prophet Joseph say it, “The past, the present, the future are and were with him one eternal now.” I thought that an interesting thing.

  00:25:35 21, “He cometh into the world,” Christ does, “That he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice. For behold, he suffereth the pains of all men. Yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women and children who belong to the family of Adam.” We want to stop there, but he doesn’t stop. He goes on. “He suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all men might stand before him at the great and judgment day.” I suppose there are those who would read the tail end of verse 21. “He suffers the pains of every living creature,” of referring that to the Savior’s, the atoning sacrifice, whether in Gethsemane or in Golgotha, but I think really, verse 22 is saying the pain we’re talking about here is the pain of physical death. You notice that? “The pains of every living creature,” what is it? “He suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men.” That dimension of the Atonement, again, that we don’t appreciate sometimes is the Resurrection. Everybody will suffer that pain of separation.

  00:26:42 23, this one could be troublesome if you read it really carefully. “He commandeth all men that they must repent and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.” Perfect faith. Who in the world do you know that has perfect faith? I don’t think that’s intended to depress us. What occurs to me when I read those lines are the number of times that you hear language like this, Lehi to Jacob says the following, how great the importance to make these things known? “There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits and mercy and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit.” The number of times in which we’re told that it is only through faith. In this case, perfect faith. What is perfect faith?

  00:27:46 Well, in my mind, the Book of Mormon synonyms for faith are total trust, complete confidence, reliance upon God. In my mind, perfect faith is complete reliance, total trust, absolute confidence in Christ. In other words, it isn’t as forbidding as it sounds, only those who have perfect faith. No, I think he’s saying only those who can trust in Christ, only those who put their trust in him, only those who put their total trust in him, that totally and completely have confidence in him that what he says he’ll do, only those who actually reach that point where they rely upon him. Does that make any sense? I don’t know how else to interpret perfect faith except total reliance, total trust, total confidence. The language later of both of Moroni, relying alone upon the mercies of him that is mighty to save.

  00:28:54 So I think perfect faith means let’s trust him completely. It does get to the issue of what good works does and what grace does. I was reminded of the passage in Philippians Chapter 2 where Paul says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” You read that and you say, “Oh, sounds like that I have the greater responsibility,” but you read the next verse where Paul says, “For it is God which works in you, both to do and to know his will.” C.S. Lewis, in talking about that says, “You read verse 12 and it sounds like it’s totally man and you read verse 13, it sounds like it’s totally God.” He says, “You see, we’re trying to separate into watertight compartments two things, when in fact it is God and man working together to save the human soul.” I think the perfect faith back here in… Perfect faith in Christ is totally trusting him.

  00:29:51 I was thinking one day, what does it mean to trust the Savior totally? And I thought, “Well, what does it mean to trust my wife?” Here’s what I came up with. How do we come to trust someone in this life? What does it mean to say, “I trust my wife, Shauna”? Well, here’s some thoughts. I trust her in the sense that I know she loves me, that she knows me well enough to understand my heart, my deepest desires and longings. I trust her in that she knows only too well my weaknesses and my inclination to be less than I should be, and yet she displays regularly the patience and long-suffering and forgiveness that are so often required on her part. I trust her because she is ever ready and willing to forgive me. I trust her in that I know I can share my heaviest burdens, my darkest moments, my lingering doubts, and that she will think no less of me.

  00:30:52 Finally, I trust Shauna because I know that ours is a winning team, that our companionship blesses and elevates my life and makes me so much more, so much better than I could be on my own. Further, I have confidence in her in that I know that she will always come through. And heaven only knows how much I rely on her wisdom and judgment, her discernment and her unending devotion and loyalty. When I sat down and I wrote that up, I came to appreciate some ways that we trust the Savior. It’s just interesting. They’re so common words, trust. What does it mean to trust the Savior? It’s those kinds of things.

Hank Smith: 00:31:28 And maybe that’s why those Old Testament prophets use that analogy of marriage for the church and the Lord.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:31:35 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:31:36 And do you know what? I love it Trying to help my students see that as we’re going through a less prescriptive approach for the Strength of Youth and ministering and children and youth program is the question of just being loyal, be loyal to Christ. And when you can compare a marriage covenant to our covenant with Christ and how nice it is to be in a covenant with him and to be loyal to him, who like you said so beautifully, he knows our foibles and he knows our weaknesses, but he’s loyal to us and we can be loyal to him. I like that idea very much. Thanks for sharing that.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:32:11 You bet. In the verses that follow, verses 25, 26, 27, I think this is so comforting. It’s the notion that no person will ever be held accountable for a law that he never knew about, for keeping a law he never knew about. No person will be accountable or condemned for not obeying a principle that he was ignorant of. That one of the blessings, unconditional blessings of the Atonement is that God will only punish those who have the law and knowingly sin against it. Those who don’t have it, have the law, will not be condemned.

  00:32:55 One of the subsets of this would be obviously the salvation of little children. In other words, this principle which later is expanded if you will, in Joseph Smith’s vision of the celestial kingdom, Section 137, he’s essentially saying, Joseph is saying, “How did Alvin, my brother, get in the celestial kingdom?” He never had the gospel. And you and I, we are sitting here and knowing what we know, we could turn to Joseph and say, “Well, Joseph, obviously somebody did the boy’s work.”

  00:33:27 I think Joseph would’ve said, “What do you mean they did his work?” As far as we know, there was no notion in his head at that point in time of the redemption of the dead. When the voice of the Lord says that all those who would have received the gospel if they’d had the opportunity are heirs of the celestial kingdom. That’s the same message being sounded here by Jacob. It’s one of the beauties of the Atonement is God’s not going to punish anybody for not living a law or knowing a principle that they never had.

  00:33:57 In other words, we focus a great deal of our attention on sin and resurrection, overcoming sin through the Savior’s forgiveness and resurrection. There are those unconditional benefits of the Atonement that are so priceless, this one of not holding us accountable. And I would add there too, you remember later in Alma Chapter 41, the reference that Alma makes to Corianton that yes, we’re going to judge according to the law and keeping the law, but also according to the desires of our hearts. For if the desires of our hearts are good, God’s going to judge us that way as well.

  00:34:36 I remember Elder Oaks years ago writing in his book Pure in Heart, he said, “I often think of my father-in-law.” He said “whenever someone would come to him and offer to do something for him but later was unable to do so because of circumstances that had arisen”, he said, “My father-in-law would say, ‘Thank you. I will take the goodwill for the deed'” and I think the Lord treats us the same way, which is it isn’t just the good works we perform, it’s all the things we wish we could do but are not in a position to do that he’ll bless us as well, and to me, that’s terribly comforting.

Hank Smith: 00:35:14 Yeah. What a healing doctrine because sometimes we feel guilt from all we can’t do and you’re saying that’s a wonderful feeling. The Lord’s going to count all that desire as deed. So Bob, instead of, “What am I doing wrong?” It’s look at all you want to do right.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:35:35 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:35:36 And that desire counts. It counts for something and sometimes the only person who knows those parts of your heart is God. That’s good company.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:35:45 It is. And I thought how interesting. We’ve talked about all the different things, forgiveness of sins, resurrection, but you come to this really important, like the salvation of little children is an illustration. This is an illustration of we’re not going to be held accountable for what we didn’t know, for what we didn’t have. Almost as if abruptly in verse 25… Well, maybe we better read 27, 28, “But wo unto him that has the law given, yea that has all the commandments of God like unto us, and that transgresseth them and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state.” I’m reminded of later Book of Mormon teachings of Alma about how we handle our lives.

  00:36:30 Let me just turn quickly to Alma 34, verse 33, “And now, as I said unto you before, as you’ve had so many witnesses, therefore I beseech of you that you do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end, for after this day of life which has given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness.” Improve our time I think is like unto what we just read here, wasteth the days of his probation. Every time I read that, “Improve our time,” I’m thinking of the hymn we sing, “Improve the shining moments.” The one thing God asked us to do is to use our time wisely, knowing we have limited time on this earth.

Hank Smith: 00:37:20 I’ve heard it goes by pretty quick.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:37:23 It does.

John Bytheway: 00:37:23 Well, this is a phrase that Alma uses. He calls life a day so many times in here, the day of this life. It’s this probationary period that goes by quick. This is the day for men to prepare to meet God.

Hank Smith: 00:37:36 John and Bob, isn’t it Jacob who later says, “Our lives passed unto us?”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:37:41 “Like a dream.”

Hank Smith: 00:37:42 Yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:37:43 I’m 75 years old. I’ll be 76 in a matter of days and very often I’m thinking, “Where did it go?”

John Bytheway: 00:37:52 “What happened?”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:37:53 “Where did it go?” Before too very long, I’ll be elsewhere. And every time I read that, John, I find myself thinking like he does. It seemed to us to pass like a dream. In the verses that follow, he goes through a series of… These are his woes, but notice that he starts with this one, verse 28. “Oh, that cunning plan of the evil one. Oh, the vainness and the frailties and the foolishness of men. When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish, but to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.” And I was reading through this knowing we would be together to discuss it.

  00:38:49 I came across these, you would know these. This is from President Joseph F. Smith. “Among the Latter-day Saints, the preaching of false doctrines, disguised as truths of the gospel, may be expected from people of two classes and practically from these only. They are, first, the hopelessly ignorant, whose lack of intelligence is due to their indolence and sloth, who make but feeble effort, if indeed any at all, to better themselves by reading and study. Those who are afflicted with a dread disease that may develop into an incurable malady, laziness. Second, the proud and self-vaunting ones who read by the lamp of their own conceit.” Is that not a powerful statement? “Who interpret by rules of their own contriving, who have become a law unto themselves and so pose as the sole judges of their own doings.” And now listen to this part, “More dangerously ignorant than the first.” That is those who were hopelessly ignorant, who didn’t pay the price. Far more serious and far more dangerous were those who suppose of themselves they don’t need to follow the counsel of God or the counsel of the prophets.

  00:40:10 I remember Elder Maxwell asking one time when he was talking about what hesitations do we have? Why do we have hesitations about following the prophets, following the counsel of our current church leaders? And he said, “Is it the case that we feel confident for the church leaders, ‘As long as they don’t get into my specialty and as long as they don’t try to talk about something that I’m an expert in?'” These are sobering verses, 28 and 29. As someone who went through a doctoral program that was extremely difficult when I was being called upon to learn things that weren’t true but needed to know. It’s hard not to be caught up with what you’ve learned to the extent that you begin to believe it.

  00:41:01 I’ll just confess a sin here. When I was going through my doctoral study, I was working in the church education system. I was a CES Coordinator in Tallahassee, Florida, an Institute Director, and we would meet about every three or four months as a group of us. We were in the southern states area that went everywhere from North Carolina down, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, just all of that area was our area. We would meet together and it was just delightful to be with my colleagues. I remember one night being in the pool, we’d had a long day and we were outside in the swimming pool just talking to one another. One of my colleagues, one of my dear friends who I think felt he could be honest with me, said to me, “How are you enjoying your studies?” I said, “Well, I’m learning a lot. I really am.”

  00:41:53 And he said to me, and I think this took some courage, he said, “Brother so-and-so said something to me the other day that got my attention.” I said, “What was that?” He said, “Bob’s a brilliant man, but since he’s done his studying in religious studies, he talks differently.” And there was something about the way he said that, “He talks differently.” I knew what he meant. I remember teaching an institute class and I made some reference to the Matthean community, meaning the community of Matthew, and a student raised his hand and said, “Brother Millet, what is the Matthean community?” And I said, “Nothing at all.” And I found myself repeating things I had learned. You know what I’m saying?

  00:42:46 Education is a wonderful thing, but it’s always a bit of a risk, isn’t it? Because we have to have that kind of wisdom and discernment that allows us to learn the things we need to know to better understand, in my case, where those who are academicians in the field of religion treat religion as an academic discipline. I needed to know all of that and I’m grateful I do, but what things that I needed to reject personally, things that were simply not in harmony with the gospel. I think of this verse regularly, that is, we’re only in trouble with learning when we think we know more than the brethren know, when we think we know more than the Lord knows or when as Elder Maxwell suggested, we’re offended when someone starts talking about things that are in our area of specialization. I think these are sobering things. It’s a wonderful thing to learn as much as we can, but at the same time, recognize how little we know and to follow the prophets. They know a whole lot more than we do.

John Bytheway: 00:43:50 When I look at this verse, I think about learned. Give me some synonyms, guys. When they’re educated, when they have lots of degrees, when they’re learned, they think they’re wise. And I love the James 1:5, “If any of you lack wisdom,” and Hank, you’ve heard me joke, if you lack information ask of Google. The most important question of all is where’s the nearest Five Guys? But if you lack wisdom, that’s an entirely different question. And I’ve got my own footnote here to just one of my favorites in Section 45, “They that are wise,” there’s that word, “And have received the truth and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived, verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire but shall abide the day.” Just the idea of well, who’s your guide?

  00:44:37 If you’re wise, you’ve taken the Holy Ghost for your guide, not social media as President Nelson warned. If most of the information you get comes from social media, your ability to feel the spirit will be diminished. But if you’re wise, you’re taking the Holy Ghost for your guide. And I love what Sheri Dew said about Jesus not only being our last hope, as if there are other options, but our only hope. And our only hope is to take the Holy Ghost for our guide. Siri, Alexa, Google will tell you something. They’ll tell you something every time and there’s a chance it might be true, but also what Sheri Dew said, “Why not go to sources that only speak truth?”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:45:20 Yeah, that’s good.

Hank Smith: 00:45:22 There’s a difference between knowledge and wisdom. We need to understand that, that you can have a lot of knowledge and not be very wise. Some of the most wise people I’ve ever met have not been that educated, but the wisdom that comes from experience, it’s on a different level than the knowledge that comes from a degree, which again, we’re not downplaying that, right Bob? The Lord wants us to read and study.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:45:50 We need to be competent. What’s Peter’s counsel in answering people’s questions? We need to do what? We need to provide an answer, a reason for the hope that’s within us. I’m going to tell a little story, but I know that there are people who get really upset when they hear this story, and that’s okay. After I’d had my interview with President Holland and five or six of the Vice Presidents back in March of 1983 for joining the faculty at BYU, Brother Holland said, “Go on back. Dean Matthews wants to talk to you.” So we went back to the Joseph Smith building. We sat down, we talked a while. He talked about procedures and policies and so on. And then he said, “Now Bob, we find that it takes members of our faculty about five years to get over their doctor’s degree.” He said, “And unfortunately some never do.”

  00:46:50 Now, there are people who have chewed me out for saying that because it sounds like I’m opposed to education. No, not at all. But I saw the same thing when I was Department Chair and Dean at BYU, the temptation to want to have your students learn everything you learned. I was thinking, here’s what came to mind when we were talking about this. Do you remember Nephi, in Second Nephi 28 later in our story? Speaking of evil attitudes of the last days, “They wear stiff necks and high heads. Yea, and because of pride and wickedness and abominations and whoredoms,” this is verse 14, “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ,” and at that point you can feel comfortable. And then he says, “Nevertheless, they,” the humble followers of Christ, “Are led, that in many instances they do err because they’re taught by the precepts of men.”

  00:47:52 Nobody feels more strongly about the need for education and for producing Latter-day Saints who are experts in their fields than I, and yet I’ve seen and you’ve seen the danger when people begin to trust what they’ve learned academically more than they trust what the prophets of God have to say. We’ve witnessed that in recent times. People finding fault with the leaders of the church are teaching. These verses to me are extremely sobering and I think we all have to watch ourselves that what we’re seeking for is not just more knowledge, but we’re seeking for wisdom.

Hank Smith: 00:48:36 Bob, just on a side note, the 15 leaders of the church, those are some pretty educated men.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:48:44 Not exactly a dumb bunch.

Hank Smith: 00:48:46 Right. You’ve got PhDs from Harvard, Yale, you’ve got a Rhodes Scholar.

John Bytheway: 00:48:52 We would never want to sound like we’re saying nevermind education or being learned. I think it was Elder Russell M. Nelson at BYU, I remember sitting there and him saying that, “The difference between hoping to make a difference in this world and actually making a difference in this world could come down to one thing, education.” But you remember Hugh Nibley, Truman Madsen did a video called Faith of An Observer about Hugh Nibley. And here’s Hugh Nibley. He’s literally in the video walking around, reading hieroglyphics off the side of the Temple of Karnak or something. He’s just reading it and the cameraman tries to follow him, but Hugh Nibley doesn’t want to be on a video, so he just keeps going. It’s really funny. But anyway, at the end, Hugh Nibley says, “Well, none of us are very smart. None of us knows very much, but the thing the angel’s envious for is we can forgive and we can repent.” I’ll never forget that.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:49:40 Yeah, that’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 00:49:42 From Hugh Nibley, who could read 33 something languages but was humble, I think that somebody said, “The more you learn, the more you’ll realize how much you don’t know,” and that was kind of a Hugh Nibley thing.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:49:54 Absolutely. Hugh Nibley could get away with saying things that you and I could never say, we would get in trouble for it. He never did because the brethren had such complete confidence in him, because they knew he was trustworthy.

Hank Smith: 00:50:08 Brilliant and trustworthy. I love it.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:50:11 The first class I had at Florida State in my program was an Old Testament seminar. The professor said, “Now, we’re going to put some parameters around us here. We’re going, for example, to bracket out the following in our studies, divine intervention, predictive prophecy, miracles.” Now, when you take those out of the Old Testament, you don’t have a whole lot left. You begin to study the Bible from an academic perspective. Okay? When you begin that way, it’s sad that that should have to be the case, but those are some of the rules, so we won’t fight and argue among ourselves. Let’s bracket out miracles, predictive prophecy, and divine intervention. Well, again, you might as well be reading Tom Thumb.

Hank Smith: 00:51:06 Before we move on to chapter 10, both of you, I want to share with you an illustration I do with my students and have you both maybe comment on it so I can make it even better the next time I use it. When I talk about the Fall, and we’ve spoken about how crucial it is to understand the Fall if you’re really going to desire the Atonement, I use this story, and maybe both of you’ll remember this. It’s back in the 1900s, so it’s a while ago.

  00:51:36 It was October 14th, 1987 when an 18-month-old girl, Jessica McClure was in her aunt’s backyard in Midland, Texas. She fell into a well 22 feet down, and I don’t know if either of you remember this, but she is in a very difficult situation. I tell my students, I show them a couple of pictures from the news where her aunt called the police, and the police bring the paramedics and they bring Search and Rescue, and pretty soon you’ve got news cameras all around this home and this little 18-month-old girl is 22 feet down in a hole and they can’t go get her. You can’t go down to get her. They knew she was still alive because she was singing Winnie the Pooh songs.

  00:52:34 It’s just so heartbreaking, and yet I’ll ask my students, “Can she get herself out of there?” And they all shake their head, “No.” Not only can she not get herself out, she has no concept of what situation she’s in. All she knows is everything went dark. These rescue workers have to figure out a way to get her out, and the only way to get her out without hurting her is to go below her, to descend below her, crawl under her, which would be a traumatic experience for the rescuer, to go in a freshly dug unsupported hole. It could come down on him at any moment. This man Robert O’Donnell is going to go down a freshly dug hole, go underneath her and get her out. I don’t know if either of you remember that.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:53:31 I do remember it.

Hank Smith: 00:53:33 I remember I was six years old and my parents were glued to the TV watching to see if this girl would get out. It took them 56 hours to free her, but she comes out with a broken arm but okay. With that illustration in mind, can you see why Jacob would say, “O, the greatness of our God, o, his mercy.” We can be like baby Jessica. The Fall can be that well, and we have no power to save ourselves. Isn’t that errand to King Lamoni’s father? Because of the Fall, man could do nothing of themselves. So do you think we truly understand the Fall in a way that we desire an Atonement? Right Bob? Once you understand the position you’re in, as you described earlier, you’re looking for a Savior.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:54:33 Yeah. It seems like when we really understand the Fall as it’s taught in scripture, particularly in the Book of Mormon, you don’t come away depressed. You do come away rejoicing in the fact, “I don’t have to stay this way,” that somebody greater than I can lift me out of this situation. In other words, we’ve said this before, in the Book of Mormon, Fall and Atonement are companion doctrines. They just go together. You can’t find a place where you’re teaching the Fall where the Atonement is not mentioned or alluded to.

  00:55:08 I was once asked to work with a young seminary teacher who wanted to teach the Fall, but he kept teaching it in such a way that his students were going home depressed every day.

Hank Smith: 00:55:19 Right.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:55:19 And I was asked to visit with him about it. And I tried to explain, “No, let’s explain the Fall so we see the reality of our condition and help the students to rejoice in the fact there’s a way out of this.” It’s not like the Fall came about and we have no solution. In fact, when you think about there’s another way of saying this. C.S. Lewis, in his book Miracle says something like this. He says, “If we could imagine a planet somewhere on which there had been no Fall, what would be the condition of things there?” He doesn’t say it exactly like this, but I’m saying it this way. He said, “Redeemed humanity will rise far higher than unfallen humanity.” You follow me?

Hank Smith: 00:56:13 Yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:56:13 “Redeemed humanity will rise far higher than unfallen humanity.” Why? The Atonement of Christ doesn’t just bring us back to where we were. If we continue to cultivate it in our lives, it makes us much more than we were, much higher than we were. The beauty of understanding the Fall is it creates within us a grander appreciation for what Jesus can do for us that no one else can do.

Hank Smith: 00:56:43 That’s why often I’ve heard it in our theology a fortunate Fall, where I’m pretty sure the rest of Christianity doesn’t see it that way.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:56:51 Yeah, it’s a beautiful concept. I had a pastor friend of mine once. He said, “Let me dramatize for you the difference between your view of the Fall and our view of the Fall.” I said, “Okay.” He said, “If the day ever comes when you get to see Adam and Eve, you want to embrace them. You want to thank them for what they did.” He said, “From our perspective, if I ever get to see Adam and Eve, I want to yell at them. I want to scream at them. I want to take a swing at them for what they’ve done to us.” Well, obviously they’ve missed the whole concept of the Fall because the Fall was necessary. I used to hear Elder McConkie say how important it was that the Fall came, and I remember thinking, “Wouldn’t it have been better if it hadn’t been a Fall?” The answer is no. No, because the Fall allows us in regard to the Fall to rise far higher than we would’ve risen even if we had never sinned.

Hank Smith: 00:57:56 Wouldn’t you say the same thing about what you alluded to earlier, the gathering and the scattering? They’re better off at the end result than had they never been scattered.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:58:08 The mercy and the grace that can be extended to an entire nation as well as to one person is far greater, and you certainly have a grander appreciation for it, is you’re able to move out of that fallen condition into a redeemed condition.

John Bytheway: 00:58:23 I’m thinking of the Pearl of Great Price. “They taste the bitter that they may know to prize the good.” What is that, Moses 6:55 or something? I love to show my class when we’re doing 2 Nephi 2, I love to show them Section 138. I love to show them a couple of comments about Adam and Eve. One of them… Well, some people just don’t believe in Adam and Eve at all, that that was a fable. Some would say that Eve was the devil’s gateway, and I love to read this out of Section 138, the vision of Joseph F. Smith, “Among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in this vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the ancient of days, the father of all, and our glorious mother Eve, with many of her faithful daughters, who have lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God,” and I think we have thrown Eve under the bus and the restoration has said, “Oh no, that’s exactly wrong. This is our glorious Mother Eve and her faithful daughters too, who have been affected by feelings about even womanhood since the apostasy.”

  00:59:35 I love to show them that verse and say, “You find me that anywhere in mainstream Christianity, our glorious Mother Eve.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:59:43 Beautifully said.

Hank Smith: 00:59:44 John and Bob, this is from Elder Oaks. “Some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it, not the Latter-day Saints. Informed by revelation, we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called The Fall.” In fact, Bob, I quote you in my class when I teach 2 Nephi 2 and 9 to my students at BYU, where I don’t know if you remember writing about this, but you said you were listening to a Christian radio station and they were taking calls and someone asked, “Reverend, why did Adam and Eve take the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?” And the minister answered, “I don’t know. Well, that’s the dumbest thing anyone could have done. If Adam and Eve had not been so selfish, so power hungry, we might be in paradise today.”

  01:00:35 And then you said, Bob, “I have since thought again and again about his answer and looked sympathetically upon a Christian world that desperately needs what Latter-day Saints have to offer. And that’s 2 Nephi 2 and 9. Right?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 01:00:49 I remember that so well. I remember hearing that and thinking, “It’s like a light came on and these lights come on to all of us every once in a while,” a grand appreciation for the distinctives of Latter-day Saint theology. Things that are so simple and yet to the world, if they only understood them, they would be so profound. That changes the whole plan of salvation once you understand the goodness, the greatness, the grandeur of Adam and Eve, what they accomplished for us.

John Bytheway: 01:01:24 This idea though is that we would all be living in paradise today, if not for the Fall. And that those lines go by so quickly in 2 Nephi 2 and in Moses, they would’ve had no children. Nobody said it better, I think, than our friend Brad Wilcox. I love the way he put this. “The atonement was plan A, not plan B. The Atonement wasn’t plan B to clean up the mess Adam and Eve made of things. It was from the foundation of the world. The Atonement and the Book of Mormon adds that sometimes when it talks about the Atonement, which was prepared from the foundation of the world. That was always the plan, plan A.”

  01:01:58 Brother Gerald Lund, before he was Elder Gerald Lund, he asked us once, “Everybody, raise your hand if you’re responsible for the Fall of Adam?” And nobody raised their hand. And he said, “Well, raise your hand if you’ve been affected by the Fall of Adam.” And everybody raised their hand. And then he taught us something I’ve never forgotten is that there’s the Fall of man, we’ve all been affected by it. But then there’s the fall of me. We had those two on the board, the fall of man and the fall of me, and the fall of we all know better and we sin. “All of us sin, come short of the glory of God,” Paul would say.

  01:02:28 And because of that, we need redemption from our own fall. And that really helped me. It’s helped my students to see what we’re talking about here. Adam has been forgiven his transgression in the Garden of Eden, but we have each fallen and need the Atonement.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 01:02:44 Yeah. I remember him teaching that in a summer August Symposium, CES Symposium. And I remember taking that and putting stars by it and thinking, “Why didn’t I come up with that?” It’s a beautiful thing. The fall of man versus the fall of me. Yeah. We don’t have to repent of the fall of man, but there are things that we do that we need to. And I think to me, that has two parts. There are the particular sins that we commit that we need to repent of, but there’s something else. And that is what could be called sin, singular, or sinfulness. That is when we begin to understand this, I think we start to pray, not just, “Forgive me for the sins I’ve committed,” “Please somehow bring to pass a change in my very nature that I won’t even have the desire to sin.”