Hank Smith:                      00:00:00             Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:00:02   Car of young men started following us and they followed us all the way across the Willamette River and down to this little place and we were so afraid there’s no way we could bring any of them home. So we parked, we pulled into the only church parking lot in the area, which was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints parking lot because that was our safe place, I guess, and thinking that they would leave us alone. But they followed us into that church parking lot. It was a few miles from our own home. They rolled down the window, they got out and they asked us on a date. And we were so excited. We just had turned 16. These boys that we didn’t know were cruising the gut. It was midnight and they had asked us on a date.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:40             Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with John Bytheway. John, I was reading the very last chapter of Esther. It said words like power, might, the declaration of greatness. I mean this is great among his people, accepted among the multitude of his brethren, speaking peace. John, as I was reading about Mordecai, Esther’s uncle, I thought that’s how I would describe John Bytheway right there.

John Bytheway:               00:01:13             That’s not how I would describe him, nor anybody that knows me except for you.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:18             John, you need to accept these compliments that I’m giving you because they are right on every one of them. That is Uncle Mordecai. So we’ll call you Uncle John.

John Bytheway:               00:01:27             Oh, I like Uncle John. I’m an uncle.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:31             We are privileged to be joined today by our friend, Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner. Barb, welcome back to followHIM. We’ve missed you.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:01:39   I just love you guys. Thanks for having me on the show. This makes me happy to be with you. I get to learn from you and hang out with you.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:47             You are wonderful. And I wish everyone could have been here for the last, what, hour as we didn’t hit record. We just chatted, shared stories. It’s good to have you back.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:01:56   Thank you, friend.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:58             John, when you think of the book of Esther, what comes to mind?

John Bytheway:               00:02:00             Almost everyone when you Google or whatever says, “This book doesn’t mention God.” I just think this has got to be deliberate because God is everywhere in the story. I love to see the 3D chess game going on in the story of Esther. That’s what I love about it.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:17             The Lord is moving the pieces. The phrase that comes to my mind is from Mordecai. How do you know that you aren’t come to the kingdom for this exact time? Who’s doing that? That’s the Lord moving those pieces into place. Barb, what are we going to do today? What are you looking forward to?

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:02:34   Being with you and being in the scriptures, seeing what the Spirit’s going to teach, also what he already has taught. As John says, finding the Lord and letting him guide us just like he was guiding Esther. You mentioned right at the beginning about not having God mentioned in this book. I think it’s fascinating right off the top that we see Esther, the name of Esther, in Hebrew Esther means hidden or concealed. I want to talk about Esther actually as a prototype of Christ and what we can learn about Christ through this incredible woman. I’m excited to talk about patriarchal priesthood and the difference between patriarchal and patriarchy and how we confuse patriarchy with patriarchal and how one is so sacred and one is so mortal and confusing. I’m excited to talk about leadership, excited to talk about timing. There’s so many. Identity. This book is so full of incredible principles and truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s full of relationships. It’s full of guiding us unto the Lord and helping us overcome weakness and fear. And I love it.

Hank Smith:                      00:03:38             John, I am excited already to learn from Barb. We always learn a lot when Barb is here, and it’s fun to combine a wonderful teacher with a wonderful book and see what happens. Now, John, it has been a while since we’ve had Barb on the show. There might be a new listener who says, wait, I’ve heard this name before. Who is this again? What do we know about Barb? Why is her name so long? Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner. There’s a lot of syllables there.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:04:02   Okay, listen, before John jumps in, I’m actually going to tell you that because we’re talking about women and priesthood and things like this, this may be personal for me, but my patriarchal blessing says, as I use my family name, I will bring honor to my parents. I am careful to go by Barbara Morgan Gardner because I want to recognize my parents in raising me and how important that is. So it’s who I am. My parents named me with the Barbara Morgan, and I got married to wonderful Dustin, and so I take all those names and names matter.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:31             It flows beautifully. Barbara Morgan Gardner.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:04:34   Thank you.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:34             My name’s Hank. It’s more of a dog name than a people name.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:04:37   Hank is a nice name.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:38             It’s a nice name.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:04:40   My name means strange, just so you know, Barb. Que barbaridad. Yeah, strange. The strange one. I know it hurts me.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:46             The strange one. Well, speaking of strange ones, John, tell us about Barbara.

John Bytheway:               00:04:52             Barbara loves teaching in religious education at BYU. She teaches the Doctrine and Covenants, the Eternal Family, Teachings of the Living Prophets, and her research interests focus primarily on women in religious leadership, international education, and religious pedagogy. She’s the author of the book, I have it right here, The Priesthood Power of Women. Hank, I was noticing that her first chapter is called For Such a Time as This, which is a phrase right out of Esther. Completed postdoctoral work at Harvard. She served as institute director in Boston, including her assignments as a chaplain at Harvard and MIT. Oh my goodness. She was born and raised in Salem, Oregon. Served a Spanish-speaking mission in the Los Angeles Temple Visitor Center. Lives in Highland, Utah, married to Dustin Gardner, parents of two children. I want to ask you about this new nonprofit you have of Women of Covenant Leadership. Tell us about that, because I suspect a lot of our listeners will be interested. Women of Covenant Leadership.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:05:58   We have had prophets asking us for years, and there’s one specifically, Joseph F. Smith, who’s been quoted by so many, who says to the women of the church, “We need you to lead the world, especially the women of the world, not be led by the world.” We’ve heard that so many times. We’ve had so many pleas from President Nelson and President Oaks asking the women of the church to be leaders. And my personal philosophy is that any woman and any man who makes and keeps their sacred covenants is a leader. By who they are, they are leaders. Our hope is that we can ignite the women that are already so strong in the gospel of Jesus Christ and help them see their important role in their homes and in their neighborhoods and in the schools and in the world. Speak up and speak out, know the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that they’re confident.

                                           00:06:45             Then really make a difference. Make a difference wherever the Lord would have them be, whether it’s, again, in their homes or communities in any way. We started this nonprofit. We tried to really help with teaching fundamental doctrines and principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We have gatherings. We take people on wonderful church history trips together. In each one, we are trying to do all we can to empower righteous women to change the world as has been prophesied, to prepare the world for the Second Coming, gather Israel, and establish Zion. We’re all in, we’re running and having a great time. Love to have anyone join us. We’re just one step at a time climbing this mountain and hoping to fulfill and answer the pleas of a prophet.

John Bytheway:               00:07:25             How would people find out about it? How would they get involved?

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:07:28   There’s a website that we have just created, womenofcovenantleadership.org. We have a podcast called Grounded in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s more of a formal podcast. It comes out weekly. It’s Come, Follow Me manual. We only have women on the podcast. And again, these are women that are grounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ who are aligned with the prophets, seers and revelators. They come to my home, sit at the table, and we discuss the doctrines and principles in each of the chapters of the Old Testament or whatever we’re studying that year together. Just as sisters. Yeah, it’s fun. It’s a great experience.

John Bytheway:               00:08:04             So good.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:05             Wonderful. We’ll call it a sister podcast of followHIM.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:08:09    Thank you. Love it.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:10             It’s a sibling of ours.

John Bytheway:               00:08:11             That’s right.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:08:11   Yes, we love each other.

John Bytheway:               00:08:13             All in the family.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:08:14   And big thanks to you guys for helping us think through and get started with it. Your help has helped us a lot, so thank you.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:20             Yeah. Barb is good friends with our wonderful teammate, Lisa Spice.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:08:26   Okay. If you have not had the opportunity to watch Judges just came before this podcast, you can go back. Lisa does a phenomenal job. We got her on the show. She came on a little bit screaming and acting like she didn’t know a lot, but let’s be honest, that woman is brilliant and so fun. Yes, we had her on our show. I’m so grateful. So thank you, Lisa, for coming.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:47             Oh, that’s so fun. People could get a double dose because we did Judges with Lori Denning, who is Lisa Spice’s

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:08:54   Stop it.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:54             twin sister. You could get both of them from our show and yours. I think everybody needs to go do that.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:09:01   Okay. I am going to do that myself. That’s going to be a great experience. Those Denning sisters, they know what they’re doing.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:07             And their laugh is so similar. When you listen, you’ll go, oh, wow. Those are twin sisters. They’re not a lot alike. They’ve gotten older. They’re definitely two different people, but the laugh? Still the same. All right. Let’s start with the Come, Follow Me manual. The title of the lesson this week, Thou Art Come For Such a Time as This. “Many events in the book of Esther might seem like luck or coincidence. How else do you explain how an orphan Jewish girl became the queen of Persia at just the right time to save her people from slaughter? What are the chances that Esther’s cousin, Mordecai, would happen to overhear a plot to assassinate the king? Were these coincidences or were they part of a divine plan? Elder Rasband noted, What may appear to be a random chance is in fact overseen by a loving father in heaven. The Lord is in the small details of our lives. We might not always recognize the Lord’s influence in these small details, but we learn from Esther’s experience that he can guide our path and prepare us for such a time when we can be instruments in his hands to fulfill his purposes.” Beautiful. All right, Barb, you have a lot prepared. You’re excited about it. Where do you want to start?

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:10:13   I want to start right where you just started. God is making himself known. The question is, are we seeing it? Are we observing and noticing the majesty of the moment? And I think that the book of Esther is really bringing us there. I’ll just share a quick story. This happened just this morning to me. I’m just going to tie this in just because it’s on my mind. A majesty of the moment moment. I have a nephew who I was just speaking with, and he’s given me permission to share this. He is so tender. I just love this young man so much. He’s been serving a mission in Sierra Leone. He’s coming home a little bit earlier than he had planned. He loves his mission. He loves serving. He loves the people. He loves everything. He’s coming home to make some important decisions in his life. As I was talking to him, the Spirit confirmed to me so strongly, be pleased with him and happy for him.

                                           00:10:58             This is, in this case, the right thing to do. That’s up to him. I just felt that. But on the phone, he had said to me that he didn’t know what his travel plans were, but he’s probably going to be coming home this week. And I said, I really wish I could be there, but we’re actually leaving. We’re flying out to Europe this week. I’m so sad that I won’t be able to meet you at the airport to throw my arms around you and tell you how much I love you, et cetera, because it’s going to be hard to come home. As I said that, we said, yeah, that would be great. And I wish we could see each other, but we understand I’ll be home in a week and a half. Long story short, he received his travel plans to come home. He’s coming from Sierra Leone.

                                           00:11:34             He told me about his travel plans before. He sent me the travel plans. I looked at the travel plans and I just thought, wow, that’s so interesting. You’re going through Amsterdam. And I looked at my flight plans, and I saw that we were also going through Amsterdam. Then I looked at the time that he was flying in to Amsterdam. If you can think of all the flights going out throughout the entire world on all these different airlines, I looked at the time he’s flying in. He’s going to be in Amsterdam at 6:45 AM with a three-hour layover. I hadn’t even paid attention to my own flight plans to this point. I pulled up my flight plans just to see. We land in Amsterdam at 6:50 for a two and a half hour layover, a few gates down from him. Genuinely, what are the chances of this young man that I love dearly and wish terribly that I could be at the airport with?

                                           00:12:27             For the Lord to put us both. I mean, it was to the point where I thought, maybe I should just cancel my trip. I’m going out to speak to a number of young adult women in Europe. Maybe I should just cancel this trip because being there for my nephew when he comes home from his mission is extremely important to me that he feels loved and cared for and we’re all behind him. But instead, the Lord fixed it. And instead of me canceling my trip that I felt I shouldn’t cancel, he made it so my husband and myself and my wonderful nephew are all going to be at the Amsterdam airport for two hours. And as I said to him, I said, look, the likelihood of our flights changing and something happening and us not being able to land at the same time or something could be high.

                                           00:13:06             I don’t know. We may miss each other. But what is very clear is the Lord knows this nephew. He knows his heart. He cares about him. He knows him by name, and that matters. I just share that with the story of Esther as you mentioned that you can’t make this stuff up. God is making himself known. God didn’t sign his travel plans and he didn’t sign my travel plans like love, Heavenly Father, that wasn’t on there. You don’t need it. You have the signature. God has made himself known. There have been so many experiences like that in my life, and I hope that we recognize that God is in the details of the details as we’ve been told. He just makes himself known if we were able to watch that.

Hank Smith:                      00:13:41             That’s a beautiful story. Elder Bednar, April 2005. You both know it. “Some may count these experiences as simply nice coincidences, but I testify that the tender mercies of the Lord are real. They do not occur randomly or merely by coincidence. Often it is the Lord’s timing of his tender mercies, which helps us both discern and acknowledge them.” Thanks, Barb.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:14:09   I just think of President Oaks and his wonderful talk. If you haven’t looked at that recently, his BYU devotional on timing is so good. And for those, especially who may be single or wondering about the timing of the Lord, I love the part because I was single when I was listening to this and I continued to be for a number of years, and he shares an experience with his wife being single as well. He talks about timing. He talks about the importance of understanding that when we have faith in the Lord, as Elder Maxwell says, we have faith in the Lord’s timing. We have to be careful to judge other people according to our timetable and understanding our own selves according to our timetable. But if we put our trust in the Lord. President Oaks says this, he says the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

                                           00:14:50             Faith means trust. Trust in God’s will, trust in His way of doing things, and trust in His timetable. We should not try to impose our timetable on His. And I would add, we should not try to impose our timetable on others. People may wonder why this is happening at this time. Why was Esther in this position at this time? Why was Mordecai at this position at this time? Why Vashti? Why King Ahasuerus? Why are all these things happening? I don’t know, but what I do know is that the Lord is making himself known through His timing. Having faith in the Lord is having faith in His timing, and we see that very clearly in this. I hope that everyone listening recognizes that God is in the details of their lives, and there is timing for everything. Trust in His timing. Get to know the Savior so that you can have trust in His timing. It’s much easier to trust in God’s timing when you can trust in the Savior. Know the Savior. Learn to trust Him. Then place your timing on the altar so that He can take over. He can run with you.

John Bytheway:               00:15:46             Beautiful. Elder Lund called them divine signatures. Tender mercies, divine signatures. And I’ll bet a lot of listeners are out there nodding and thinking of a time when they saw it too. Write those down and stack them up and see how God is involved in our lives and how he really does, really does arrange things for us sometimes, like this story too.

Hank Smith:                      00:16:07             There’s this moment in John 21 where the Lord says, “Throw your net on the other side. And you will find.” John looks at Peter and says, “It’s the Lord.” It’s a personalized blessing. Only four of them would recognize it. The others would say, “Wow, what a miracle.” But they would say, “No, no, no. That’s an individualized blessing. That was meant just for me, just for us.” And then you were right, John, he jumps into the water. I got to go to him. I would say Barb is helping us get to know the Lord. We want to get to know about him, obviously, but we get to know him as a person, and his timing seems to be such a important part of his personality.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:16:47   I guess I’m waxing personal here, but John, just to your point with my wonderful nephew today, I said, please, make sure you write this down. Because even though this seems crazy, this will be something that you really do need to share with future generations and your friends, and maybe most importantly, for yourself. As we’ve been taught so carefully by Moroni, remember the things that the Lord has done for the children of men since the beginning of Adam. We saw that with Moses. He’s asking the people, even in the book of Deuteronomy, remember these things. We were putting stones with Joshua as they’re crossing. Put these there so when your children ask, you can tell them. In our day, we have so many ways to record. Find a way to record it so you and other people will be reminded of the hand of the Lord constantly and consistently. In fact, one of the things that Elder Scott says is one of the ways we show God that we love Him is by recording our sacred experiences. We can remember Him better if we record our experiences. It’s hard to sometimes remember. Prove that you care by writing it down or by recording it in some way.

Hank Smith:                      00:17:47             You don’t need to be intimidated by saying, oh, I’ve got to write every detail. Even just making a note of a few sentences will keep that on your mind. I have a note just on my phone.

John Bytheway:               00:17:58             Or you could even make a voice memo and say, this happened to me today. Just say it if you don’t want to write it, just say it. Today with the voice memo thing, I think you hit those little quotation marks and it transfers it to text, like speech to text.

Hank Smith:                      00:18:12             And you can actually upload that audio to your family search. There’s so many ways to keep these things.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:18:18   The key is to remember. That’s the principle, right? Remember the hand of the Lord in all things.

Hank Smith:                      00:18:22             How wonderful.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:18:24   If you will indulge me, everyone, I have some pretty strong feelings about the book of Esther. Chapter one starts it off. It’s a woman’s book in some ways. When I look at the book of Esther, I see influence of women at a very, very high level. I believe that Esther today would be answering the plea of the prophet. And there are a number of things we could talk about. But before we even get into Esther, I want to get into Vashti. I actually have in my scriptures, I love Vashti. But I will say this is a woman who wasn’t willing to put up with being treated and demeaned. And I love that about her. We start out with this King Ahasuerus. We see that he is having this incredible feast. This is in chapter one, verse three. He’s having this feast unto all his princes.

                                           00:19:02             He wants to show all of these people the riches it says in verse four, and his glorious kingdom and the honor of his excellent majesty. He’s throwing this huge feast. He’s inviting all of these people, very high level people. And he wants to really show them how incredible he is. It says in verse six, “The blue hangings fastened with chords.” And so you see this sign of real royalty. He’s making a very serious point here. They gave them drink in the vessels of gold. I mean, they’re drinking out of gold vessels and it’s royal wine. I mean, he is going all out in this meeting with these men. And his drinking was according to the law. It says, “None did compel for so the king had appointed to all the officers of his house that they should do according to every man’s pleasure.” While the king is having his big party with all of these men, we see in verse nine that Vashti, the queen, is also having a royal feast.

                                           00:19:53             She’s there with all of her women friends. They are there. They are having this dinner together. They’re enjoying each other’s company, I would imagine. In the middle of Vashti’s dinner that she’s having with the women, she is going to be called by her husband, the king, who is, as it says in verse 10, merry with drink or merry with wine. He is going to have his servants go to Vashti and her dinner party and command her to come to him. It says in verse 11, “To bring Vashti, the queen, before the king with the crown royal, to show the people and the princes her beauty for she was fair to look upon.” Why is he bringing her? Not to sit down with her, not to hold her hand, not to praise her and appreciate her comfort and her relationship with him. He’s bringing her to show off.

                                           00:20:44             He’s bringing her to show off just like he’s shown off, it seems, with all of these other things. He’s showing off the wine. He’s showing off the grapes. He’s showing off the food. He’s showing off everything. It’s very clear that that’s what he’s doing at the beginning. And in verse 12, you see, “But the queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s commandment. By his chamberlains, therefore was the king very wroth and his anger burned in him.” If we look at it from Vashti’s perspective, I so appreciate her here. This is an example, I would say, of patriarchy and why it’s very different than the patriarchal order. So I’m going to go back. And we see Adam and Eve, especially as we started the Old Testament this year together, and especially I think we see it mostly in the Pearl of Great Price. We see a couple who is working together so that they can fulfill God’s laws and fulfill God’s commitments to each other.

                                           00:21:33             The amount of times in the Book of Moses where we learn about Adam and Eve and the word they, chapter five of Moses, Adam and his wife called upon the name of the Lord and they heard the voice of the Lord. Verse five, “And he gave unto them commandments that they should worship their Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks for an offering.” If you go through from the very beginning with Adam and Eve, we see a couple who is working together to fulfill righteousness and to bring each other and their families back into the presence of the Lord and to become like them. Then we go from Adam and Eve and we jump perhaps to Sarah and Abraham. I love Sarah and Abraham. This is the patriarchal order. So we understand Adam and Eve entered into, as President Benson taught us so well, and President Nelson has taught us so well more recently, that they said that Adam and Eve together entered into the patriarchal order of the priesthood.

                                           00:22:28             Together as a spouse, you can’t enter into the patriarchal order of the priesthood without each other. Adam and Eve entered into this order together and it allowed them to work together and to serve together. I always think it’s fascinating, especially with the story where Abraham is asking Sarah to say that they aren’t married, that they’re cousins. Abraham asks Sarah. He doesn’t command Sarah. That’s patriarchal order. They are working together for a righteous and good cause. And Abraham is respecting Sarah by asking her, not demanding. But then you get to the time of Moses and continue to go through the Old Testament. What happens with Moses? We know the story. We’ve all just read it recently. Moses is going to go up to this mountain and he is coming down. And if you are careful and read the Joseph Smith translation in the book of Exodus, you’ll see that what does Moses lose?

                                           00:23:19             Or what do the people lose because of it? They lose the new and everlasting covenant. They lose the highest order of the Melchizedek priesthood, which is the patriarchal order. Why does this all matter in bringing us to Esther? Because when the patriarchal order of the priesthood is lost, they lose respect for families because they cannot enter into this order. When we lose respect for families, women become demeaned. When women become demeaned, men become demeaned. It hurts the entire culture and then children can’t rise to their privileges. That turns into patriarchy. That is what we don’t want. Patriarchal order is a husband and wife. President Benson says that it’s a family order where a husband and a wife are working together as equal partners. Patriarchal order is a family order. Patriarchal order is about temple covenants. It’s about eternal marriage. It’s about partnership between men and women and relationships that are ordered under God.

                                           00:24:12             That’s patriarchal order. Patriarchal order emphasizes covenants. It emphasizes women and men being yoked together. It emphasizes being rooted in the temple and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Patriarchal order emphasizes being service-oriented and covenant and consecrated. It emphasizes women being eternal and eternal life is only possible through women and men working together in this synergistic relationship. It emphasizes sacred responsibility. But the patriarchy, this is important because people, if Satan wants to use a word to really hurt people, he’s going to destroy the things that are most sacred. I know we know this. The patriarchal order is among the most sacred topics in the gospel of Jesus Christ. What is he going to do? He’s going to confuse people and turn patriarchal into patriarchy. What is patriarchy? Patriarchy is control. Patriarchy is men over women. Patriarchy is rooted in social systems instead of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

                                           00:25:10             It’s power oriented. It’s over instead of through. It diminishes the life of women and it focuses on hierarchy and pride. The gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not based on patriarchy. To make this very clear, it’s patriarchal. Moses loses this order during his time. You can very clearly see that we’re not too far into this time period, and then now how women are being treated. Vashti is being asked to dance in front of a bunch of men. She does not want it. I do not believe Abraham would ever ask Sarah to do that. I do not believe that Isaac would ever ask Rebecca to do that. I do not believe that Hank and John, I don’t believe you would do that. You are righteous, good, solid men. My husband would not ask me to do that.

                                           00:25:54             Men who understand God and his order will not demean their wives. I am extremely grateful and blessed by the incredible men in my life who understand what it means to make and keep sacred covenants. And those who do treat women with the greatest of respect. I have experienced mostly respect, kindness, meekness, love unfeigned from the men in my life who have made and kept sacred covenants. That’s part of keeping the covenant. That for me is important. We haven’t seen that yet in King Ahasuerus. But to be very clear, I think we’re going to see it. The influence of Esther is going to change the way that the king acts. I love the king. I don’t like to run him under the bus at all. I think he is part of the society at that time. He has men that are around him that are helping him through temptations and through peer pressure to treat a woman in a way they shouldn’t be treated. But with Esther’s influence and Esther’s help throughout the next few chapters of this book, we’re going to see a king that treats Esther very differently than at the beginning of the book.

Hank Smith:                      00:27:00             Hmm. I love it. The objectification of women is obviously a plague. Today, it’s everywhere. Used to be across town or in a different place. Now it’s at our fingertips. Vashti is one who refuses to be treated as an object.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:27:19   I remember being in a stake. It was the same stake as President Monson. I remember a woman who was asked to come up to the stand and bear her testimony and she was a much older woman. She was walking, had a difficult time walking. She was slowly walking up to the stand at a stake conference. And who got up to help this woman climb the steps? President Monson, who was also in his 80s, struggling with diabetes, had a hard time standing. But what does that say? The most Christlike people are reaching out to the women. I think about a time when Elder Scott was speaking at a meeting that I was in, and I was the only woman in the entire meeting. I remember Elder Scott saying, “We’re so grateful for all of you, wonderful brethren who are here, and thank you, dear sister.” And he just pointed out that I was there and I appreciated that I wasn’t just another man. It was so kind of him. That is where I see my brothers. I see my husband. I see you two. I see other wonderful men in this church. I appreciate the men who are really trying. But I do want to make that point right here very clearly. This is not okay. The treatment of this woman is not okay. It’s going to change. But I feel for Vashti.

John Bytheway:               00:28:26             I love that distinction. Patriarchy versus patriarchal order. I love what you’ve done there. Oh, I hope everybody goes, oh, okay. I can see where that is such an important difference. Starting with the same sounding word, but that’s such an important difference. I wanted to read something from the Old Testament student manual. “The guests had been allowed to drink the king’s wine in any quantity they wished instead of the law where you only drink when the king does.” I think that’s what that law thing means. They’re just drinking like crazy. The student manual says, “After seven days of heavy drinking, the guests were probably quite inebriated. She, Vashti, may have considered it beneath the dignity of the queen to parade before such a lot, simply to display her beauty. Our friend Camille Fronk Olson said too, Queen Vashti was not merely a trophy wife. She showed moxie. When the king summoned her to parade her beauty in front of his inebriated guests, she flatly refused.”

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:29:26   There’s a reason why chapter one is in here, I believe. I think it’s important that we recognize what’s going on here with Vashti, because Esther’s going to be stepping into this position. This is a very difficult area for women, especially we’re seeing this, and we’re seeing also who this king is surrounding himself with. This is very telling. We have this king as we see in verse 15. He says, “What shall we do unto the queen Vashti, according to the law? Because she had not performed the commandment of King Ahasuerus by the chamberlains. And Memucan answered before the king and the princes, Vashti the queen hath not done wrong to the king only, but also to all the princes and to all the people that are in the provinces of King Ahasuerus. For this deed of the queen shall come abroad unto all women so that they should despise their husbands in their eyes when it shall be reported.

                                           00:30:13             The king Ahasuerus commanded Vashti, the queen, to be brought in before him, but she came not. What are they concerned about? They’re concerned about other people also not obeying their husbands. They’re concerned about other people also not following suit and the problems that that could entail, and that’s sad. They’re concerned again for themselves. This is an issue of pride. This is them saying, “Well, if we don’t do this, then other women are also going to think it’s not okay.” In verse 22, if we continue on with this, let’s go to verse 20. “When the king’s decree, which he shall make, shall be published throughout all of his empire for it is great, all the wives shall give to their husband’s honor, both to great and small.” In other words, all women should be bowing down to their husbands. Again, that is not the patriarchal order.

                                           00:30:57             That is not the family proclamation. That is not what our current prophets and apostles are teaching us today. Then continuing, And the saying pleased the king. Well, of course, he wants everyone to bow down to him. He cares a lot about money. He cares about pride. He cares about what he looks like. It’s a natural man issue. Yeah, he’s having people surrounding him that are going to give him exactly what he wants, which is a whole nother issue of leadership. Then verse 22, “For he sent letters unto all the king’s provinces and to every province, according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language, that every man should bear rule in his own house and that it should be published according to the language of every people.” I recognize that word rule. We saw this in the book of Genesis as well with Adam and Eve.

                                           00:31:38             I love what President Hinckley says about rule. He says, “My interpretation of that sentence, speaking very specifically about rule, is that the husband shall have a governing responsibility to provide for, to protect, to strengthen, and to shield.” It’s not rule over. The husband, as it says in the Family Proclamation, this is a different kind of rule. This is he has a responsibility. He has a responsibility to protect his wife, to provide for his family, to strengthen and shield other people. That’s what righteous men do. That’s what my experience with men has been most of my entire life. There have been a few exceptions. When I see those exceptions, I think to myself, Section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants. I’ll read the scripture so it’s not coming from me, but it’s coming from the Lord to Joseph.

                                           00:32:26             Behold, there are many called but few are chosen and why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, King Ahasuerus right now. And aspire to the honors of men, King Ahasuerus, that they do not learn this one lesson. That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only by principles of righteousness. That they may be conferred upon us is true, but when we undertake to cover our sins, which he was doing, or to gratify our pride, which he was doing, or vain ambition, which he was doing, or exercise control, or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, which he was doing, and any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves, the spirit of the Lord is grieved, and when it is withdrawn, amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

                                           00:33:09             But on the opposite side, verse 41, no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood only by persuasion, by longsuffering, by gentleness, by meekness, by love unfeigned, by kindness and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, without guile, reproving betimes with sharpness when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love towards him whom thou hast reproved. Lest they esteem him to be his enemy. And let thy bowels be full of charity. That’s how righteous, wonderful men are and recognizing that they’re not perfect. And I will also throw in, that’s the same with women. If women are controlling, if women have their hearts upon the things of the world, if women are acting in pride or vain ambitions or exercising control or dominion over people, their husband or their children, amen to the priesthood power that they have been endowed with in the temple.

                                           00:33:56             Amen to the authority that they have received as they have made temple covenants and they have been called and set apart in callings. Amen to it for women too. Women and men who are covenant-keeping people are building people to come unto Christ and be like him. Anything less than that is not of God. To be clear again, it’s not of God. If women or men are treating each other in a negative way, Vashti’s experiencing that. And Esther is not going to be putting up with that. Vashi didn’t put up with it, and Esther’s not going to put up with it. But Esther’s righteousness, I believe, is really going to help this king.

John Bytheway:               00:34:27             Hey, how many times have we mentioned Section 121? I love it of not only just how to deal with people, but that idea that, okay, you may have had the priesthood conferred upon you, but you act like that. You don’t have the priesthood.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:34:41   I remember my dad one time, I came home from a volleyball trip. I was in high school. My parents had 13 children. I walked in. My mom had forgotten to pick me up, which I was, frankly, I was used to. I am like, I got forgotten at church. I walked home all the time from everywhere again, and I was number 12. And who remembers the 12th child? Like no one. They lost me in Disneyland, for heaven’ sakes. I spent the entire day in the lost and found in Disneyland when I was six. Granted, my mother wasn’t there, but I was just kind of used to getting lost. And I remember walking in after walking home from high school. It was a few miles to get home. And I walked in, my mom was doing dishes. I remember going up to her and just letting her have it.

                                           00:35:23             I was mean. I was cruel. I was not keeping my covenants. I just couldn’t deal with the fact that I had been left again by this wicked woman. It was so stupid as I look at it like she’s doing dishes. I remember her standing there and just looking at me and the look in her eye was so hurt. Then my dad walked around the corner and I thought he was at work because I would never have done that to my mom if my dad were home, to be very frank. He walked up to me and he put his finger in my face. And he just said a very short phrase, “That is my wife.” And I ran. I ran. I can genuinely say I trusted my dad completely. My dad was a person that we’re describing here as one who understands the patriarchal order and how to treat people well.

                                           00:36:16             I ran from him because I knew I had hurt him and I knew I’d hurt my mom. I wasn’t running from him because I was scared. I was running from him because of my love for them. And I couldn’t believe that I had done that. Shortly after, as it says in Doctrine and Covenants 121, he came downstairs, knocked on the door, sat by me on the bed and just simply said, “Barb, I am disappointed. I love you and I love your mother. I do not want to see you hurting each other. Your mother has done nothing to deserve this, but has given you her entire life. Please do not hurt yourself or our family by acting in such a manner.” And I knew that my dad would do that. I knew that he was that kind of person because he is a man of covenant. I want to make it clear.

                                           00:36:59             I recognize that every person has different understandings and we’re all struggling with different things, and especially anger sometimes can be very real. And that’s one of the things that the king is struggling with here too, it looks like. But try to lift and build each other. I appreciate that my dad didn’t get mad at me and scream or anything. He just owned it. Then at the very end, reprove betimes with sharpness when led by the Holy Ghost. But then go forth. Make sure that they understand that you still love them and there’s not some hatred behind you and there’s not some wedge that’s going to ruin your relationship because we care about each other. And that’s what the priesthood is. The purpose of the priesthood is to save souls. It’s to save families. We get over ourselves, we put ourselves in the hands of the Lord, and we act as Christlike as we can.

                                           00:37:41             Again, we’re not perfect. We’re all trying to climb our own mountains. Grace for grace, as it says in section 93, following Jesus Christ. Back to Vashti and the idea of the king listening to his friends and feeling like, well, because of his friends, he’s going to treat Vashti in a certain way. That’s just sad that he doesn’t have his own backbone. I wonder if he kicked himself. You do see this in chapter two. I’ll go there for a second. He says, “After these things, when the wrath of King Ahasuerus was appeased, he remembered Vashti.” So he’s no longer mad. I could be seeing this wrong, but the way I see this, for some reason, I’ve learned to love this king in a funny way because he’s so mortal. After the anger had passed, he sits there and he remembers Vashti. And what she had done and what was decreed against her.

                                           00:38:23             Then said the king’s servants that administered unto him, let there be a fair young virgin sought for the king. I don’t know if that’s even what he wanted. I wonder if maybe he just wanted her back. Maybe he realized that he had made a huge mistake. He was really angry, and maybe he just wanted her back. He’s just thinking on Vashti. But the people he’s surrounding himself with tell him, well, let’s go find you a virgin to make you happy. I don’t know. Maybe that is what he wanted. It doesn’t feel like that to me when I read this. Then you see in verse three, And let the king appoint officers in all the provinces of his kingdom, that they may gather together all the fair young virgins unto Shushan, the palace, to the house of the women, unto the custody of Hege and the King’s chamberlains, keeper of the women, et cetera. So the king agrees to this.

                                           00:39:05             My personal opinion, there’s nothing more than that, is I think the king was recognizing already that he had made a mistake and he’s thinking on her. It doesn’t say that he’s mad at her. I think he’s thinking on her. And now the reality is though, there’s a stage that’s been set. Vashti is gone. The king would like another wife. What they did back then culturally to find another wife for the king, which gets us to this next part where we start now, we’re going to be introduced to Esther.

Hank Smith:                      00:39:32             Barb, I like that you are so good to the king. It just tells me about who you are. You want to see the good in him. He is so influenced. It seems all throughout the book, it’s almost like he can’t be his own person at times. That someone sends something and he says, “Well, yeah, okay, let’s do that.” I’m glad that you see such goodness in him. That is just like you. We have women with backbone in this story. Is there going to be a man with a backbone here? And good thing Mordecai is here.

John Bytheway:               00:40:03             I wrote in my margin, he remembered Vashti and I put sober? Because maybe he was now sober.

Hank Smith:                      00:40:11             He’s like, “Where’d she go?”

John Bytheway:               00:40:12             What have I done? Yeah, what have I done? And then like you said, instead of solving it himself, a servant shows up, hey, I have an idea. Yeah, okay, we’ll do that.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:40:21   There is a reality of what have I done? I think that that’s why I give the king the benefit of the doubt, because we do see the king changing. To be clear, all of us make mistakes. Who of us has not said, “What have I done?” Whether it was because we were drinking and we wake up in the morning or because we were in a fit of anger and we wake up in the morning, or it was because we were fearful and we wake up in the morning. We were judgmental and we wake up in the morning. Every one of us, and that’s part of mortality, is we ask ourselves, “Oh my goodness, what have I done?” I think, to your point, Hank, on this one, you say, “Why doesn’t he get a backbone?” Well, I think that there may be an answer again in section 121, because he doesn’t have confidence.

                                           00:40:57             He’s lacking confidence. And why is he lacking confidence? Because he is not full of virtue, so it seems, and he’s not full of charity. And if you’re lacking virtue and you’re lacking charity, you’re lacking confidence. And you’re more likely to be swayed by the evil influences in the world. In my life, the people I see that are the least confident are the people, they may have a fake confidence. The most confident people are the ones who are most Christlike. The more Christlike we are, the more confidence. And often it’s a quiet confidence. It’s a diligent confidence, but it’s a backbone confidence. You can push somebody so far, but a person who is a son of God or a daughter of God who is confident before the Lord is not going to play the game.

Hank Smith:                      00:41:34             I remember, John, you’ll remember President Hinckley in the priesthood session of General Conference. We don’t have that anymore, but you would sit there and you know he’s going to call on men to do better. I remember sitting there and it was like, okay. President Hinckley, here’s 2006. With this priesthood comes a great obligation to be worthy of it. We cannot indulge in unclean thoughts. We must not partake of pornography. We must never be guilty of abuse of any kind. We must rise above such things. Rise up, O men of God, and put these things behind you. And the Lord will be your guide and stay.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:42:09   I’ve had students over the years say, why are the prophets so hard on the men? And they don’t do anything to the women. The brethren are speaking to the women just as strongly, but they do it in a different way like you just said, John. How many times have we had a President Monson that says to the women, you need to clean your windows so you’re not judging the other woman in the house next door. Her clothes are actually pretty clean. It’s your windows that are dirty. They’re saying it to us. Joseph Smith said that, actually the early Relief Society minutes where Joseph Smith is speaking to those women. It’s very similar to Section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Instead of using some of those same words, although some words are similar, but he’s saying to them, hold your tongue. Be careful lest you talk negatively about another woman.

                                           00:42:51             Be careful with the way you express. Be careful with judgment. They’re saying things and they’re correcting and helping women be better. We see that from President Nelson. We’ve seen that from President Oaks, but Elder Bednar just came and spoke to the women and he asked the women to arise. Arise. Do more. Be better. We’re both hearing it, but I do think that there may be a different way that women are often spoken to than men are. I think if women are prescient and really paying attention to what’s being said, that they will also recognize the loving, rising that the Lord is providing for his daughters. As you said, Hank, the Lord loves whom he chastens. I also will throw out in this case that often for women, if I may, maybe it’s the same case with men. I’d leave that to you guys to tell us, although you’re not all men, but you may, you may be, and I’m definitely not all women, but I would say sometimes I think women believe that the Lord is chastening them when in reality it’s the adversary putting them down.

                                           00:43:44             The Lord doesn’t chasten through demeaning, just as we talked about patriarchal order. The Lord doesn’t chasten through making you feel bad. It’s the Elder Maxwell, it’s the divine discontent that the Lord provides. It’s not that demeaning, demonic, “I’m horrible. My life’s not worth…” That’s not coming from the Lord. That’s also important for women just to understand how the Lord does speak to his daughters and his sons. It’s always going to be a lifting and building experience. Again, patriarchal order never is demeaning, and God is the head of the patriarchal order.

John Bytheway:               00:44:12             Hmm. Barbara, what you shared right at first, Joseph F. Smith, lead the world. Don’t be led by the world. That shows confidence right there. Lead the world. That he has confidence in you. What a beautiful way to say it. This is in you. You have the potential, the power to do it. Lead the world. Don’t be led by the world. I’ll remember that.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:44:34   John, if it’s okay, this is the actual quote. I just looked it up. He says this. Speaking to the women in the church, he said, “It is not for you to be led by the women of the world. It is for you to lead the world, especially the women of the world. And everything that is praiseworthy, everything that is God-like, everything that is uplifting, and everything that is purifying to the children of men. Lead the world.” It was Sister [Nadauld], I believe, who talks about how we have enough women who are harsh and enough women who are mean or their temper and things like that. But we need women who are following Christ, who are gentle, who are using their spiritual gifts to lift and to build. That’s my interpretation. But we need those kinds of women. There’s a difference in power. The world, again, that’s another word that the adversary just loves to use.

                                           00:45:15             Power is an extremely important word. The Lord uses it consistently throughout the scriptures. Satan does not like that word. Somehow it just becomes sometimes a negative word. But power used in righteousness is God’s power. It’s priesthood. And with women, and for men, love is power. Love is very powerful. Charity is very powerful. So if we could really understand how God uses his power, how God uses his love, it would change the way we understand priesthood and presiding. I get asked often what is presiding? And there are a number of, numbers, so many quotes about presiding. Those that I love talk about how presiding is service and what it means to preside in righteousness. I’ll give you maybe a couple. I love this one.

                                           00:45:58             This one is from Elder L. Tom Perry. Remember, brethren, that in your role as a leader in your family, your wife is your companion. Since the beginning, God has instructed mankind that marriage should unite husband and wife together in unity. Therefore, there is not a president or a vice president in a family. The couple works together eternally for the good of the family. They are united together in word, in deed, and in action as they lead, guide, and direct their family unit. They are on equal footing. They plan and organize the affairs of the family jointly and unanimously as they move forward. In recent years, we’ve had Elder Soares talking about what that means to have this patriarchal order and to enter into this everlasting covenant of the priesthood. Elder Holland has a great quote where he’s talking about, I don’t have a problem with any man understanding presiding when, because when they understand it, they’re going to serve and love and build each other.

                                           00:46:46             Elder Rasband says, “Preside does not mean dominate. Nurture does not mean a secondary role. God has given men and women different, but equal and essential roles that compliment each other.” Presiding, if you ask me what it is, it’s to love. It’s to serve. It’s to protect. It’s to build. I have seen people say, “What is it? When you see it, you know it. When you experience it, you know it. It is a man who will lay down his life for his friend. A man who will lay down his life for his wife. Presiding is not being in control. Presiding is serving. Which I think that’s why it’s Christlike leadership is service leadership. I’ve experienced that. Sometimes I recognize that some haven’t. I have experienced it and I appreciate it so much.

Hank Smith:                      00:47:28             Let’s do a little ping pong then. We’ve gone back and forth between men and women. John, you want to hear one from Elder Christofferson? President Christofferson, but then Elder Christofferson. You ready for this?

John Bytheway:               00:47:39             Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith:                      00:47:40             “As men of the priesthood, we have an essential role to play in society, at home and in the church. But we must be men that women can trust, that children can trust, and that God can trust. In the church and in the kingdom of God in these latter days, we cannot afford to have boys and men who are drifting. We cannot afford young men who lack self-discipline and live only to be entertained. We cannot afford young adult men who are going nowhere in life, who are not serious about forming families and making real contribution in this world. We cannot afford husbands and fathers who fail to provide spiritual leadership in the home. We cannot afford to have those who exercise the Holy Priesthood after the order of the Son of God, waste their strength in pornography or spend their lives in cyberspace, ironically being of the world while not being in the world. Brethren, we have a work to do.”

                                           00:48:34             Then he does exactly a little bit later in the talk what Barb said to do. “Brethren, we have a work to do. Thank you for the sacrifices you make and the good you do. Keep going. And the Lord will help you.” He follows up. You can feel the love. He says, “At times, you may not know quite what to do or what to say. Move forward. Begin to act, and the Lord assures that an effectual door will be open for you. It is true that we are, in many ways, ordinary and imperfect, but we have a perfect master who wrought a perfect atonement and we have call upon his grace and his priesthood. As we repent and purge our souls, we are promised that we will be taught and endowed with power from on high.”

                                           00:49:19             It’s exactly what Barb said. Oh, listen to this. “The church and the world and women are crying for men. Men who are developing their capacity and talents, who are willing to work and make sacrifices, who will help others achieve happiness and salvation. They are crying rise up, oh men of God. God, help us do it.” I love this Barb, we’re getting pep talks on both sides of the aisle.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 00:49:46   We all have so much work to do. So I share this story. And Dustin, my husband and I got married when we were both 40. You get kind of set in your ways. I remember after we were married and I would leave like I normally would and just go do a bunch of stuff, head to the library, go shopping, go to dinner, whatever, call my friends. And I remember one day, it was not too long after we were married, Dustin called and it was probably 10:30 at night. And he was like, “Barb, are, are you okay?” I was like, “Well, yeah. It’s what I do. I always stay out late and then I come home when I want to.” And he was so kind about it, just like, “Okay, just checking in.” For me, it was just normal. For him, it wasn’t normal.

                                           00:50:20             So it went on that way for a little while. And one day he was getting a little bit bugged by it. And I was like, “Dustin, I am my own person.” I wasn’t trying. It was just more the personality of me and him. I just wasn’t used to having to check in. Why would I check in? Right. After that, the next morning, he just said, “I’m so sorry.” And I said, “Well, why are you sorry?” He said, “I just want to make sure that you’re loved.” What does it do to me as a wife? Makes me want to be a better wife. Oh. He’s just good. But is he perfect? No, but he’s just a good guy trying to do what’s right. He’ll be a man, he’ll step forward. It causes me to say to myself as a woman, I need to step up to the plate because I need to make sure in our home we are having peace.

                                           00:51:07             I need to be the lioness at that gate for him and for my children. Yes, a man protects, but also a woman. And I want to be at that gate, and I want to make sure nothing bad is coming in, and I want to make sure that the cell phones are off or the TV, whatever it is. That’s what synergy is. The patriarchal order of the priesthood, it’s energy. It lives and builds. I want to be a better wife because he is a better husband. I want to be a better mom because he’s an incredible dad. Hopefully, we’re doing it because we love the Lord. But when you work and build together, and that’s the beauty of the priesthood, when everybody is working to save souls, there’s a natural love and respect that comes when you see another person sacrificing for righteous purposes. To me, this is important in the book of Esther in chapter two.

                                           00:51:47             To remember that Esther was an orphan. Her parents, for whatever reason, have died. It could have been battle. It could have been a variety of circumstances. We don’t know. Esther, as it says in here, verse seven, and he brought up Hadassah, that is Esther, his uncle’s daughter, which, if I understand right, that would make them cousins if we see it that way. For she had neither father nor mother, and the maid was fair and beautiful, whom Mordecai, when her father and mother were dead, took for his own daughter. We see in chapter one, a relationship between a husband and a wife. Now we’re being introduced to a relationship between a father and a daughter. I think this relationship between fathers and daughters is critical. I’ve spoken already of my own father and the influence of my father on my life. This is a different kind of presiding.

                                           00:52:33             Presiding with a wife and a husband and a family relationship is different than a relationship between a father and a daughter. I would imagine that’s extremely obvious. In fact, I believe it was Elaine Dalton who made the comment, “A best thing a father can do for his daughter is to love her mother.” This may become maybe a little bit more personal to me because I have two adopted, if I were to use the words, although I don’t like to use it often, I have two orphan children that had no parents for a while. One of the things that we recognize right off the bat is we have to be different parents than what they may have experienced very young in their lives. We need to set the stage of what parenting looks like and very strongly teach and have a relationship, especially, and I’ll throw this out for me, especially for my husband.

                                           00:53:22             Because you see with Mordecai, the relationship between a father and a daughter is extremely important. We know that fathers often will become that first glimpse of what God is like, is how they perceive their father. Before a daughter or a son understands doctrine, before they understand covenants, before they understand truth, before they understand Jesus Christ, before they understand scriptures, what they understand is their environment. They understand the true nature of God by who they are associating with and who is in their presence. They’re going to learn how God loves them, how God protects them, how God corrects them, how God disciplines, how God helps them belong. They’re going to learn their own identity by their mother, but especially for girls by their father. That relationship that we’re seeing here with Mordecai and Esther is very clearly, I think, important in here. What does Mordecai teach Esther about herself?

                                           00:54:19             He clearly is mentoring her. He’s clearly loving her. To me, this relationship, as he sees it, there’s this position. You see in verse seven that it says that he took her as his own daughter. For a man in this stage to take a woman, we’re talking the lowest of low. She’s an orphan in exile with no parents, which means she has no money. She has no birthright. She has no purpose. I was at a conference in November of this last year where I was in Jordan. Part of the purpose of this conference, the discussion was among major leaders of the countries in that area. And orphan daughters are not adopted. They’re not allowed to be adopted because it’s a birthright issue. That’s one of the reasons. So you have lots and lots of orphans. They’re not allowed to be adopted by their people in their own country.

                                           00:55:07             I went to this conference not knowing that that was the case and the conference was on family and they asked me about the adoption of my own daughters. It caused some major contention, some concerns among people. How could you adopt these girls and take away their birthright? One of the things very plainly that I learned in that moment, it was a spiritual guidance was because of the gospel of Jesus Christ, we understand that they actually received their birthright because they were adopted and sealed as if they had been born in the covenant. This is what Mordecai, I believe, is presenting this opportunity. Not that it’s necessarily born in the covenant, but he’s providing a safe place for her. He’s providing her a life that she could not have. That is the responsibility of this father. Regardless of what happened as an orphan, we have a very loving father who was able to help a young girl who literally in that time, in that place, had no hope according to what the world would see.

                                           00:56:00             He’s doing this. To me, this Mordecai is a very selfless individual in what he is providing here. Putting her in a position to take the possibility of being a queen. I don’t have all the answers here, but it seems as if he’s taking advantage of this moment. He recognizes the possibilities that could be presented. I feel like he’s probably following the Spirit. And for such a time as this, here he has this beautiful girl who is in a position that he actually believes could be very helpful for the Jewish people and for his family and especially I think for Esther. It’s interesting in verse 10 that Esther had not shown her people nor her kindred for Mordecai had charged her that she should not show it. Well, in other words, I think it’s interesting here that we still have a father-daughter relationship. This isn’t a husband-wife relationship that we’re seeing here.

                                           00:56:44             Mordecai charged her. He’s the dad. At this point, he is helping, he is mentoring, he is guiding, he is leading his daughter, trying to help her position herself in the best place. It’s a daughter-father relationship that’s very different than a father-wife relationship. You see this as he’s guiding her through this possibility of her doing this and putting in a position. But later on, we’re going to see how this father-daughter relationship turns where she is the one providing him opportunities. Now we see the synergy. We saw the synergy already that could be between a husband and a wife and we’ll continue to see that. Now we’re seeing the synergy that happens between a father and a daughter. It’s beginning. He’s providing her opportunities right now. He’s mentoring. He’s guiding her. He’s putting her in a position that she can go forward until we get to the point where it says the king delighted in her and that she were called by name.

                                           00:57:30             She’s put in position now. She has been purified for 12 months. The king does like her. He does want her to be his wife. She is now going to be called into a position where she is going to have serious influence in the kingdom. So you see in verse 17, “The king loved Esther above all the women and she obtained grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins so that he set the royal crown upon her head and made her queen instead of Vashti.” There’s always a part of me that thinks, uh, poor Vashti again. Like get Vashti back, right? Get Vashti back. Just say you’re sorry. It’s just, it’s still kind of frustrating there, but I have to let that go to let Esther come in. Then you see verse 18, “Then the king made a great feast unto all the princes and his servants, even Esther’s feast, which I think is interesting that it’s called Esther’s feast.

                                           00:58:19             He made a release to the provinces and gave gifts according to the state of the king. When the virgins were gathered together the second time, that Mordecai sat in the gate.” Now what we don’t see here, and I’m not saying it didn’t happen because it doesn’t say that, but I think it’s interesting. We don’t see a bunch of wine being drunk. We don’t see all of the pride that was happening. We don’t see that story that happened with Vashti. What we see is a king, seemingly this king who calls his feast, or it seems to be called after the name of Esther. There’s a level of respect that was happening with Esther that did not happen with Vashti. I think the king’s beginning to change. Now you see all these virgins that are gathered together the second time. Mordecai now is sitting outside of the gate.

                                           00:58:56             We see Esther had not shown her kindred nor her people as Mordecai had charged her because she was told by him not to. For Esther did the commandment of Mordecai like as when she was brought up with him. In other words, to me, this is a young girl who is now growing older and she has learned to trust her father. She has great respect for him. She knows that he is a selfless individual. He’s trying to help her. She is obedient to his guidance. It’s a level of trust. He’s not forcing her to. She can make the decision by herself. She’s the queen. But she is so respectful of him that she sees the wisdom in what he’s done and she is going to respect his desires and she’s going to follow through with it. I think that’s powerful, the influence that he has had on her. Had she made herself known as a Jewish person prior to this, the likelihood of her becoming the queen is probably much lower. So I think she was wise in following through with this. She followed his guidance and became the queen.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:47             I think she’s entering a world she probably doesn’t quite understand of politics and enemies. And Mordecai saying, I’m going to help you navigate this very difficult place that you’re going to be in.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:00:01   I’m going to give a very basic, pragmatic, maybe throw out word of advice. Daughters, listen to your dads. Your dads love you. Your moms love you. Listen, recognize there’s no one in the world who loves you more than your mom and your dad. Even if you completely disagree, just give it some time to listen. Let the dads give some advice. If the dad’s saying something that’s frustrating to you, maybe be frustrated for a moment, but go into your room and think on it for a bit. Maybe you’ll find out that he was maybe right, even though you don’t want him to be. I think of the many times the wisdom of a father in my own life, and if we’re too quick to disagree or too quick to not want to be guided, we could be hurting ourselves in whatever it is. And whether it’s choosing a spouse or going to college or what we wear or what we focus our time on or anything else, listen to the people who love you most, even if you don’t want to. In this case, I think father’s wisdom to their daughters is extremely important. So I love that Mordecai is carefully mentoring her and walking beside her. And I love this relationship between a father and a daughter.

Hank Smith:                      01:01:10             John, we’ll call that our young adult moment of this podcast. Everyone take note of the timestamp and send that to your young adult. Your teenager or your young adult child. Say, “Go to this point on this podcast and listen to this part.” Because young single adults, even young married adults, they don’t have a lot of time to listen to the show, so we talk to their parents to send them the clip.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:01:35   I can’t tell you the number of times serving as a chaplain, especially at Harvard and MIT where I would have a young adult, especially the young women would come in and they would tell me these decisions in their lives. And sometimes they were kind of interesting to say the least. Like, huh, interesting. And I would ask them, “What does your dad think about this? What does your mom think about this?” They would often, they would hesitate like, “Well, I, my parents don’t agree and they, they think that, but they’re old.” And they would just go on and I would just kind of pause. So what do they think about this? How do you think about the guidance that they’re giving you? Often I could see that they saw the wisdom of what their parents were saying. They wanted to be free, and I get, and I totally get that. But there’s a reason we have parents. There just is, especially for young adults. Listen, you don’t have to follow it, but be humble enough to listen to the people who love you on this earth. No one loves you more than your parents. It’s just true.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:31             I remember I had a conversation with one of my students. Her name was Sydney Fry. I said, “What do your parents think?” “Well, they don’t like,” you know, and it saved her life, going to her parents. Saved her future. Whenever I see her, she still talks about it. Thank you for sending me to my parents. It was this close to, I think, a tragic trajectory.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:02:57   It’s so good, John and Hank. Speaking to you guys as dads too, just from a daughter’s perspective, your daughters love you and they look up to you a lot. I know you know that it may sometimes not feel that way for all you fathers out there, but I promise you, there is a connection and there is a level of respect. They do see God through you. And how you treat your daughters is a direct connection, a direct link to how they are perceiving their father in heaven. I have witnessed that on multiple occasions through multiple people. When they talk to me about their fathers, it’s very much how they feel about God. Just a shout out to all you wonderful dads as well. And maybe a word of thank you and also a word of being wise in relationships with them.

John Bytheway:               01:03:43             Have you ever had someone come to you and tell you, “Man, I learned this thing at seminary. I learned this thing at church and it’s something you have said to them before?” You just, yeah, wow, what, what a, what a novel thought. So I’m thankful for those other people out there too that can repeat some of the same things they’ve been told by their mom and dad.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:04:08   There’s a great talk that President Nelson gave, and he was talking to the women. I believe it’s in the talk, Women’s Responsibility in the Gathering of Israel or something of that nature. And he talks about a mom who took the cell phone away from her son. It was hard for her to do it because of the culture and society and everything else, but the son came back later and thanked the mom for helping him. And I think about back a hundred years ago when I was a kid, I remember my dad on multiple occasions, I remember I was reading a book. Sounds funny to say this, but I was reading the Gulag Archipelago. It was a concentration camp I was totally into it. I was in the eighth grade. And I remember my dad, again, asking me if he could see my book.

                                           01:04:48             I gave it to him and thumbing through it for a while and he just said to me, “Barb, I appreciate how much time and care that you have for World War II and Nazis and camps and things, but this book is hurting you. It’s changing your nature. It’s, you have put yourself so deeply into this that you’re becoming depressed by it. I am going to encourage you to not read these books, and in fact, you cannot read this book anymore.” And I remember him taking it. And I remember how bugged I was, like, “I am into this. Like, I love this stuff. I’m going to save all these people,” right? I just so appreciate that he was so perceptive of how, again, with all these kids, that he was perceptive of the need of number 12 enough to take the book away. I’m just grateful that he did.

                                           01:05:34             I can think of many experiences where he, as you both have said, where he had a backbone. He was not afraid of being the dad. By the dad, a very loving, kind dad, but he was very wise. My mom too, there was just no fear in raising children, right? Like, they just. I hope that dad’s able to turn off the television or take away the phone or shut the computer down or say no to a sleepover. Whatever it is, those are all applications. Every dad, every mom’s going to have the spirit teach them something in a different way on how to raise their own children. But I can’t tell you how many times my dad would say to me, “I just don’t feel good about it.” And he would tick me off. I’d be so upset. But how grateful I am for a dad who said, “I don’t feel good about it and so, no.”

                                           01:06:17             That’s it. I just don’t feel good about it. That had to be good enough. No reason, no explanation. He was just dad. And we trusted him enough to say, “Okay.” Not always was it kindly okay, but enough to say. I’m just grateful that he didn’t have to have an excuse for it. He didn’t have to bow down to anybody. He was dad and he was saving his kids and protecting us. And I’m very, very grateful for that. I hope the dads can be dads in the homes, and moms can be moms in the homes.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:42             He had built that relationship.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:06:44   Absolutely. But you can imagine how I felt about a heavenly father. I also knew that he loved me enough to say no, or enough to take away a book, or, you know, I got that through them. So.

John Bytheway:               01:06:55             I love the idea that heavenly Father has different ways of saying, “I love you.” One of them is, “I love you.” One of them is three different words, thou shalt not. But they communicate the same thing. I’m going to save you so much hurt, heartache, and sorrow that maybe you don’t even see right now. If you’ll just trust me, thou shalt not do this. That’s a, boundaries are love.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:07:20   I remember one time I was – I had just turned 16 and my girlfriends at the time, we all had turned 16 within, like, a couple of months of each other. And we decided to cruise the gut. I don’t know if that exists anywhere else, but in Oregon, in Salem, where I was from, we were driving down the street. Of course, our parents didn’t know about it. We were all that. And after cruising the gut for a period of time, this car of young men started following us, and they followed us all the way across the Willamette River and down to this little place. And we were so afraid there’s no way we could bring any of them home. So we parked, we pulled into, the only church parking lot in the area, which was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints parking lot, because that was our safe place, I guess, and thinking that they would leave us alone.

                                           01:07:59             But they followed us into that church parking lot. It was a few miles from our own home. They rolled down the window, they got out, and they asked us on a date. And we were so excited. It was, we just turned 16. These boys that we didn’t know were cruising the gut. It was midnight, and they had asked us on a date. Of course, we said yes. We were just giddy about it. We drove home each to our own areas. And then I announced to my parents that I was so excited that I’d been asked on a date by these guys that were in this truck. Didn’t give them all the details of driving down the street and things, but of course, I’m doing this and my parents are looking at me like, “You are the most interesting child.” We’ll just say it that way.

                                           01:08:38             I remember my dad saying, “It’s so great that you and your friends were all asked on a date, what’s your plan?” And I told them, like, “Well, I don’t know yet. They’re going to pick us up and they’re going to take us somewhere.” And my dad said, “That is such an interesting idea.” This is my memory. “That is such an interesting idea. I am fine with you guys going on a date with these young men, but you will not be going just anywhere. You’ll be going to the backyard, and your brother David will be sitting on the trampoline with you. And you will not leave the trampoline with those young men until they are gone. And you will have a wonderful date. All six of you and your brother, David, will sit on the trampoline and have your date.” You know what? It was horrible. Those guys were not worth our time, and it was a total joke.

                                           01:09:25             I was so embarrassed as they came to the house and came back on the back of that trampoline. Clearly, their intentions were not what I had thought as a 16-year-old. And I’m so grateful for the protection of my father who made sure that we all had a great date on the trampoline with my five year older brother who just got home from his mission and just loved those boys to death with me. And kindly escorted them out of the area after a few minutes of sitting on that trampoline together. There are various ways. I guess the point here is just be the dad. It’s okay. You can say no. You can put your kids on the trampoline together and give them some agency, but at the same time, make sure that they’re safe as much as you can.

John Bytheway:               01:10:08             If your kids want to cruise the gut, then and you get a gut feeling, then you know what to do.

Hank Smith:                      01:10:16             This is Marvin J. Ashton, 1985. Many years ago, I heard a story that impressed me. A beautiful little blind girl was being held by her father in a crowded compartment on a train. A friend was nearby and said to the father, “Let me give you a little rest.” And he reached over and took the little girl and held her. A few moments later, the father said to her, “Do you know who is holding you?” “No,” the little girl replied. “But you do.” She was at peace because she knew and trusted her father.

Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner: 01:10:50   Amen. Exactly. Exactly. Such a great story.