John Bytheway:               00:00                   Keep listening for part two with Dr. Matt Hinton.

Hank Smith:                      00:04                   Matt, John, how many times have we talked about how much fun we have doing this? One of my favorite things, this would shock my 16-year-old self, to be honest. One of my favorite things in life is having both books of scripture open, going back and forth. I got my fingers in a couple different places, to mark those. I’ve got a pencil over in 130. I’ve got a great teacher helping me walk through it. To me, that is heaven. Disneyland. I have much more fun doing this than almost anything. I love watching sports on tv, I love watching a good movie, but they don’t compare to an experience like this. They don’t.

John Bytheway:               00:43                   Somebody shows you something in a book you’ve seen before many times that you want to understand. Yeah, that’s the best. There’s folks out there listening who have family members who have wandered, are aching because they are not having the same feast that we are having. Please listen to what’s happening here. This is a Q and A. Well, Jacob 5 is the A. At the end of Jacob 4 is the Q and the Q is, well, how will people who reject Christ ever build on him? Jacob five answers it, and Hank the Lord’s slow. He’s deliberate. He’s careful, he’s patient. Get some hope from that. What if it’s really true? I believe it is what Elder Kearon said, that God is in relentless pursuit of your loved ones. Then get a dose of hope from this, from all of what we’ve been talking about. Now, he is able to do his work. We are learning that today. Another time we’re learning, hey, I am able to do my work. We can breathe a sigh of relief for our loved ones that we ache for.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              01:59                   When I served as Bishop, one of the things I learned the most was God is really patient. God is really patient. Sometimes it’s the timing of the work in the vineyard.

John Bytheway:               02:14                   The waiting that happens in the Zenos’s allegory. We don’t talk about that. It’s a parable of waiting and letting the Lord of the vineyard decide when he’s going to come and prune.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              02:27                   Sometimes just in building the right relationships. This is that whole idea to me again, of God knowing the past, present and the future. He puts people in places to meet the right people. He puts us in our orbit so we cross at the right paths and the right times. When I was bishop, I was bishop for those people. I met this guy. I drove past his house. I was on the way to play elders quorum basketball. The Holy Ghost was like, you should stop. Help him put his sprinkler system in, and I was like, no, I’m going to play elders quorum basketball, and I got down to the stop sign and it was like, go back and help him with his sprinkler system. I’m like, no. So I got to the next stop sign. Finally, it’s like, okay, go back. Help the guy with his sprinkling system. He and I became really good friends. 20 years later, I became his bishop and helped he and his family come back to the church. God’s working, sees it all. Let’s be patient. Let’s not lose hope for our loved ones. Let’s not lose hope for those people that we care about, because God is really good at what he does, and the Savior is perfect at what he does.

John Bytheway:               03:42                   They’ve got the long view that we don’t see. When you see past, present, future.

Hank Smith:                      03:47                   That’s quite a long view.

John Bytheway:               03:49                   Yeah, that’s longer than waiting in In and Out. When you talk about Nephi, you better make a second record.

Hank Smith:                      03:59                   Yeah.

John Bytheway:               04:00                   I love that. How does he do that long view thing? If he can do that, we can say, okay, please take care of my family, Lord, please take care of my family. Have some faith and trust in him that he will.

Hank Smith:                      04:11                   Yeah. Yeah. He’s probably saying, oh, I’m taking care of you too.

John Bytheway:               04:15                   Yeah. Yeah. You’re one of my headaches too.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              04:18                   And here’s the other thing. This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality, eternal life of man. Sometimes we think God has a day job like he’s gone to work. He comes home and he is like, okay, got to deal with this. Now I get to work on bringing to pass the immortality, eternal life of man. Well, that’s all he does, and he’s really good at it.

Hank Smith:                      04:42                   Really good at it.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              04:44                   We just get to be some of the servants in the vineyard.

Hank Smith:                      04:47                   Do your part, lift where you stand. When we lose hope for our loved ones, I think the Lord would find that a touch hurtful where he would say, wait, you really think they can out sin my love? They can out wander my sight? Don’t you trust me? Yes. They have to follow their own path just as each of us do, but the Lord’s walking that journey with them. I cannot believe that I saw Section 77 as a series of, hmm. Questions and answers about the book of Revelation, kind of random. Joseph was interested in this and he was interested in this. All of a sudden, you see, no. Not only was the Lord guiding the answers, he was guiding the questions. He lays out the plan of salvation, something to get excited about. It’s just unbelievable.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              05:38                   If this was the only section of scripture that you had, you could know God. You could know his plan. You could see if this was all you had, you could still be part of God’s plan and know what it is. I love that about scripture.

Hank Smith:                      05:57                   Yeah. I want to say to all of our listeners out there, if you really loved getting into the book of Revelation a little bit, we did three episodes last year on the Book of Revelation. We’ll link those in the show notes. Once you’re done with Dr. Hinton here, go back and listen to those. You will find a lot of this same excitement. Matt, that was wonderful, but we do have other sections to cover. What do you want to do?What do you want to do next?

Dr. Matt Hinton:              06:22                   When you think about learning and how to help somebody learn something, that’s what I think about a lot now as I’m a teacher trainer. One of those things is when I’m thinking about being Christ-centered, what does this reveal about the Savior? I think we’re going to find something similar here in 78, but there’s also another really important thing. We’ve talked about it a little bit. What’s the problem? What’s the problem that exists that creates the need? I found that the more real the problem is, the more critical the solution becomes.

Hank Smith:                      06:56                   Hmm, okay. Yeah.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              06:57                   When I have a real problem, then I need that answer. A lot of what Joseph does is there’s a real problem. I have to seek a revelation to figure out how to solve that problem. That’s sometimes how to help with scripture study. When I can identify the real problem, the need I have, scripture becomes more powerful to me as I study it. I want us to think about what is the real problem, the real challenge behind 78. Now 78, we can talk about the temporal challenge, which is the church is trying to figure out how to manage its resources that there’s some issues. There’s been a literary firm established back in Section 70 where for the publication of scripture, we need to publish the revelations. We need to figure out how to do that and try to set up a printing press. Yet we need money to buy land.

                                           07:58                   We need money to build buildings on that land. We’ve got to take care of the temporal needs of the church and we’ve got to take care of the poor. We’re going to do this all under the revelation or the principles of consecration. We’re going to live these principles of consecration. We’ve got to figure out how to solve this problem. Now, I want to take a little different approach to this if it’s okay with you guys because I think there’s a bigger problem that we’re trying to figure out, and I think this is what God’s really trying to do and he’s going to reveal something about himself here, but we’ve got to go to Mosiah first. Are you guys okay going to the Book of Mormon?

John Bytheway:               08:39                   Well, okay.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              08:42                   King Benjamin sermon Mosiah four. I think it has something to do with 78. I hope I’m not making a stretch here, but I think this is the bigger problem God’s trying to solve. In the first 10 verses of Mosiah four, what you’re seeing is a people who are seeing themselves as the dust of the earth in their own carnal state. In verse two oh, have mercy and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins and our hearts may be purified for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God who created the heaven and the earth and all things who shall come down among the children of men. Verse three, and it came to pass that after they had spoken these words, the spirit of the Lord came unto them and they were filled with joy having received a remission of their sins and having peace of conscious because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ, which should come according to the words which King Benjamin had spoken unto them.

                                           09:51                   One of the problems that God’s trying to solve in this is he wants us to obtain a remission of our sins, which we learned about this plan in 77, but there’s another word at play here. We obtain a remission of our sins. He uses the word in Mosiah, retain a remission of our sins. Let me give you just a couple of verses. Verse 12 and behold, I say unto you that if you do this, you shall always rejoice and be filled with the love of God. If you believe in God, you repent, you obtain this remission of your sins, you are going to be filled with the love of God and always retain a remission of your sins. You shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you or in the knowledge of that which is just and true, but the next verses are all that’s going to happen if you do this, if we retain our remission of our sins, everything that’s going to happen is this.

                                           10:49                   Look at verse 13. You will not have a mind to injure one another but to live peaceable. You will not suffer your children they go hungry or naked and neither shall you suffer they transgress the laws of God or quarrel. Right? Verse 16, and you yourselves will succor those who stand in need of your succor, you administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need. You’ll not suffer the beggar to put up his petition to you in vain. If you jump down to verse 26 and now for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you, that is for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day that you walk guiltless before God, I would that you should impart of your substance to the poor. Every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, and administering to their relief both spiritually and temporally according to their wants.

                                           11:51                   There’s a bigger problem that God’s trying to accomplish in Section 78 or solve in section 78. The bigger challenge is how do I take this group of people that are brand new to my gospel, that are brand new to this new and everlasting covenant that are just learning about all of these new doctrines, new challenges? How do I make them a Zion people? How do I create a, not just take care of the temporal needs, but how do I make a celestial people? Section 78 is going to teach us a little bit about the principles. If we go to 78, you’re going to see a couple things in the verses that God’s really interested in. This is for the glory of God. This is for the salvation. Look at verse two, that salvation may be unto you. Verse four, to the salvation of man and to the glory of your Father.

                                           12:56                   He’s going to take a group of people. He’s got to figure out how do I help them obtain a remission of their sins and retain a remission of their sins by how they treat each other, and how do I take care of the church at the same time? That’s a big problem. How am I going to do it in two places? How am I going to do it in Missouri? How am I going to do it in Kirtland and create a people that don’t want to injure one another that are willing to give of their all? This is a big task. Those who’ve been to the temple, in what space do we even covenant to keep the law of consecration? It’s actually in a higher level space. It’s a higher law. It doesn’t make sense to a telestial world. It doesn’t make sense to the earth we’re living in, to not try to be better than everybody else, to not try to one up everybody. We live in a world that doesn’t make sense to say, let’s create a society that everyone is cared for and taken care of. It’s amazing to me, these early saints who did that. Newell K. Whitney, Edward Partridge, these are remarkable saints that learn these lessons. That’s the bigger problem that we deal with is God’s trying to say, how do I make a Zion people not just solve a temporal problem? How do I make a Zion people?

Hank Smith:                      14:41                   He’s got his end goal in mind.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              14:43                   Yeah, because he is revealing something about himself to us.

Hank Smith:                      14:47                   This is my work and my glory to exalt my children, to have them choose to be exalted. If the Lord wanted to just solve these temporal problems, he’d be simple answers and he would just go ahead and do it himself. He has the capability. We already said he sits on a throne looking at a sea of glass, knowing past, present, future. It goes back to what we’ve said how many times, John, it’s not just getting people out of poverty. It’s getting poverty out of people, spiritual poverty, out of people. John, we’ve said it before, it’s kind of like the Lord is playing 5D chess and all the pieces have agency. Somehow he is able to maneuver this.

John Bytheway:               15:31                   You could be a dictator. Take everything from those who have and spread everything out equally among this small group, but have you changed any hearts? It all starts with that. I think King Benjamin too is talking after you have had Christ with you, you don’t have a mind to injure one another. Your hearts are changed, and if you want to retain that, take care of the poor. That’s really cool.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              15:56                   Yeah. God doesn’t want a bunch of people in his kingdom because he wants them in his kingdom. He wants people to be in his kingdom because they want to be in his kingdom. He could get us all there, but it wouldn’t mean anything. If I don’t think like he thinks, I don’t have a heart like his, I’m not going to be comfortable there. Anyway, he is trying to give us his kingdom, and at the same time he is trying to say, well, you’ve got to become the kingdom. If you don’t become the kingdom, it doesn’t mean anything. The earth has been utterly wasted. The problems are both spiritual and temporal. The principles he is going to teach in 78 actually are very spiritual in nature. What is it that he’s trying to really establish? Let’s just jump into a couple of verses, and this is where we get John’s description, verse two, and listen to the counsel of him who has ordained you from on high, who shall speak to your ears, the words of wisdom. John, there you go.

Hank Smith:                      17:06                   There he is.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              17:09                   That salvation may be unto you in that thing which you have presented before me, this isn’t just about solving a temporal problem. There’s a salvation problem here that I’m trying to help you see.

                                           17:27                   For verily, I say unto you, the time has come and is now at hand and behold and lo, it must needs be there be an organization of my people in regulating and establishing the fares of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion. There’s got to be something that helps not only facilitate temporal needs, but spiritual needs. They’re tied together, but I’m really going to establish something that’s going to be for the salvation of men of my kingdom.

John Bytheway:               18:04                   There’s all sorts of worldly ways to approach problems like this, and I love what you’re showing us is watch how the Lord does this. Here’s the full statement from President Ezra Taft Benson, October ’85 general conference. The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature. That’s what you were saying, is there’s a bigger problem here than haves and haves nots. Well, Hank, how many times have we talked about the place of Zion, the cause of Zion, then being Zion. Pure heart, pure mind, pure love of Christ.

Hank Smith:                      19:04                   John. The world’s ways will not work. They will not work. I read the other day that the countries of the earth, the ones with more wealth, have sent $3 trillion, $3 trillion to Africa to solve poverty. We still have poverty, abundant poverty. What the church is doing with we’re going to feed, we’re going to educate, we’re going to help, the Lord’s way. I’m going to transform you from the inside out. That statement from President Benson has become more and more clear to me as I’ve watched the world work.

John Bytheway:               19:46                   I have another one if you guys will indulge me. I believe Sister Sharon Eubank is brilliant.

Hank Smith:                      19:55                   Yeah, she is.

John Bytheway:               19:57                   She gave a talk at a BYU Idaho Forum called The Sacred Life of Trees. She said, I’m occasionally asked, why doesn’t the church spend more money on humanitarian work? Why doesn’t it stop building expensive temples and focus its resources on relieving the poor? This is a legitimate question for the Church of Jesus Christ, but is it money that solves society’s ills? The world has poured $2 trillion into addressing chronic issues in Africa. Why isn’t the situation better? Because money isn’t really the issue. Lasting progress comes through trusted relationships, infrastructure, reducing corruption. These are human heart problems and the ability of people to work together. Money doesn’t necessarily create those things. They must be developed alongside the resources and frankly, it’s much harder work. Back to Sister Eubank. I will never discount the one thing this church does that lifts entire communities in rapid development. It invites men and women of all social classes and backgrounds to enter sacred buildings and make the most binding and important promises of their mortal lives.

                                           21:10                   In those buildings, they promise not to steal or lie. They promise to be faithful to their spouse and children. They vow they will seek the interest of their neighbors and be peacemakers and become devoted to the idea that we are all one family, all valued and alike unto God. If those promises made in holy temples are kept, it transforms society faster than any aid or development project ever could. The greatest charitable development on the planet is for people to bind themselves to their God and mean it. Thank goodness the church builds 335 temples and counting. It is the greatest poverty alleviation system in the world.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              21:54                   Oh my. That’s beautiful John.

John Bytheway:               21:57                   Brilliant statement from Sister Eubank. Wow. Society benefits when people believe they’re accountable to God. All of society does.

Hank Smith:                      22:08                   Yep. That’s what this section is about, right, Matt?

Dr. Matt Hinton:              22:11                   Yeah. When we talk about creating a united firm to help manage the printing of scripture, printing of the word of God, so we can get the word of God in people’s hearts because the word of God changes people. We can build buildings where people can make covenants, where people can covenant with their God to live a higher way, a different way, a celestial way. We’ve got to do that, and I think that’s what God’s really doing here. I mean, let’s look at a couple of the verses, verse four. You want to pick up Hank and read four? We’ll just go from there.

Hank Smith:                      22:55                   Absolutely. Verse four, this is section 78 for a permanent and everlasting establishment, an order unto my church to advance the cause which ye have espoused to the salvation of man and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              23:12                   This is about salvation. This is about the glory of God, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. This is not about just a temporal fix. This is about creating something everlasting and permanent, and it has to be from inside. It has to be something that’s changed in us. You think about guys that are part of this, like Newel K. Whitney. You guys have been to that ashery. You’ve been to that sawmill. That guy could have been the most wealthy man in all of Ohio, in all of maybe even the United States at the time because he was selling his ash to Europe, $50 a barrel, $200 a barrel. Yet there was something in his heart that said, this isn’t about me. This isn’t about me. This is about what I can do for God’s kingdom and this is about what? What I can give, and that guy could have had everything.

                                           24:20                   Edward Partridge, Sidney Gilbert, these guys that are part of this united firm, verse five, that ye may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea and earthly things also for the obtaining of heavenly things, right? This isn’t about earthly things for if you are not equal in earthly things, you cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things. For if ye will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world. Ye must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and require of you.

Hank Smith:                      25:06                   Man, that is beautiful, which they just learned about. The celestial world.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              25:12                   Now. They need the temporal aspect. They’ve got some financial issues. This is, if we’re putting this in their context, they’re struggling. They’re trying to figure out how to take what we just learned in 77 and make it a reality. God’s saying, okay, there’s some temporal things to do here.

                                           25:30                   We’re going to create this organization called the United Firm that’s going to combine all the literary and mercantiles. Basically take all the organizations a co-op of businesses and we’re going to put them together. You’re going to have little pieces of it. You’re still going to manage it. You’re going to be able to live off it, but all the surplus is going to buy land. Get the printing press set up in Missouri to help buy land in Missouri for the settlement of the saints to help so we can build the temple. We can bring this new and everlasting covenant to fruition. because I’m trying to give you a celestial world.

Hank Smith:                      26:12                   So much bigger. Yeah.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              26:13                   So much bigger. Look at verse nine. Or in other words, let my servant Newel K. Whitney, my servant Joseph Smith, Jr. my servant Sidney Rigdon, sit in council with the saints that are in Zion. Otherwise, Satan seeketh to turn the hearts away from the truth. You think about the people that struggled in Kirtland because it was about money when it wasn’t ever about money. We’re going to get to a guy, Stephen Burnett. He gets a mission call, but Joseph basically says to him, this guy’s heart’s set on money. There’s so many people that it was about money that they lost sight of what it was really about, which was changing their hearts.

Hank Smith:                      27:02                   I can see this over and over though. Now that you’re showing it to us, Matt, this, there’s a much bigger issue at hand here, guys, your salvation. That’s verse two. Heavenly things. Verse five, a place in the celestial world. He’s saying these earthly things are important because they’re going to enable us to get to the bigger issue. But if you stop on the earthly things, it’s not going to happen.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              27:29                   Satan’s going to change your heart. What is he going to change it from? Look at that verse, away from the truth. Well, what’s the truth? The truth is God is doing a much bigger work.

Hank Smith:                      27:43                   They’ll make it about money.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              27:46                   Yep. Many are called few are chosen. Why are they not chosen? Because they aspire to the honors of men and seek after the things of the world. You can see that there’s some challenges to this too. Now we’re talking about, okay, I’m going to give my surplus and saints struggle with this. I mean, you look at Oliver Cowdery, some of the challenges that happened down in Missouri are part of being in the United Firm doing things with property that aren’t part of this covenant. Look at verse 11, wherefore a commandment I give unto you to prepare and organize yourself by a bond of everlasting covenant that cannot be broken. He who breaketh it shall lose his office and standing in the church and shall be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption. Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I prepare you and the foundation and the ensample that I give unto you whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you that through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world. We’re talking about, if you go down to verse 21, the Church of the Firstborn, we’re talking about a celestial church. We’re talking about the celestial kingdom church here that God’s trying to create. You’re laughing John, what are… what? Tell me what you’re thinking.

John Bytheway:               29:26                   We’ve got a planet marinating in telestialness. I’m going to try to make you a celestial people. That seems to be the challenge here. How do I create that out of this? It’s going to start with hearts first. That’s what made me laugh. I thought, how do you do that?

Hank Smith:                      29:42                   And not only that, I’m going to write this revelation in a way that the future saints can also do these same things.

John Bytheway:               29:49                   Well, that’s what, I laughed when it said, that the church may stand independent above this telestial world above all other creatures beneath the celestial. They’re looking down asking us to step it up.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              30:02                   This doesn’t go well. I mean. This united firm lasted till 1834 and then it’s disbanded. We lose the property in Missouri. They’re driven out. We lose the store. We lose the print shop. I mean, we lose all of this. We’re in debt. It doesn’t work. Then there’s humanness to it. We start feeling like we’re losing our land and our things, there’s this possessiveness that comes into us and it’s ours. Now we’re no longer a steward. This thing that God’s trying to do in me isn’t happening.

Hank Smith:                      30:39                   And he’s so patient.

John Bytheway:               30:41                   Yeah. because I don’t want to sit here laughing at these people when I’m sure I’m one of them. I’m one of them. I know this is me. I’d probably be right there going, well, can I keep this?

Dr. Matt Hinton:              30:54                   Well, let’s put it into our world. For them, this was real. This was every day. This was survival. This was, I can’t pay for the land that the temple’s on. I’m going to lose the mortgage. We’re being driven out of Jackson County. All this land that we’ve purchased is gone. I’m losing everything, but the prophet said it was going to be okay. Ooh. We put ourselves in this situation.

John Bytheway:               31:25                   I think of the Newel K. Whitneys that had this sense of how to make something out of nothing. He could do it and he gives it all up. You just got to love Newel K. Whitney. You have to admire him. It’s humbling to think about what he was asked to do.

Hank Smith:                      31:43                   Yeah. Newel K. Whitney and Elizabeth Ann Whitney are the heroes of the restoration. Just like Edward and Lydia Partridge, you’re going how? But they became internally.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              31:54                   So many other saints that we’re not naming. There are so many other saints who have given their life everything that God has blessed them with to the kingdom of God.

John Bytheway:               32:09                   You fast forward beyond the Doctrine and Covenants. You’ve got people that are pretty well to-do building handcarts for everybody else, crossing with what they could pull and that’s it.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              32:23                   Because God changes people from the inside out.

John Bytheway:               32:27                   The inside out. Yep.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              32:29                   What do they know about God? What has God revealed to them that makes them more willing? What do they know? What covenant relationship do they have that allows them to not be blinded by the things of the world? I look at my stake president, the time that he gives. I look at the ministers in the ward. You look at the church and the time that is given by people, the missionaries that give of their effort and their time and their energy. The bishops and the elders quorums presidents and the releif society presidents and everybody who something inside them says, I am going to give all my time and my talents and abilities to the building up of the kingdom of God. That’s what the law of consecration is really about. Now, the United Firm and the organization, it doesn’t exist today. It disbanded, but does the church have an organization, an ability that runs a similar type? Absolutely. Organization that blesses the entire world, that builds temples, that educates, that provides humanitarian aid, that responds to disaster, that donates clothing. This organization is still in place in a way just managed a lot better.

Hank Smith:                      34:06                   Yeah. By the way, it still has the bigger issues in mind. Yes these are all temporal things. There’s a way to implement them, but the church you’ll notice is not just about temporal helps. It’s about I want to prepare you for heavenly things, for salvation, for a place in the celestial world. Sometimes we can get a little frustrated that this isn’t happening faster. Do more. Happen faster. Well, look at the Lord in verse 17. You’re little, you don’t understand. You cannot bear all things now. I will lead you along. The patience of that because He says, Satan’s going to make it about money. In verse 10, look at verse 18. I’m about the riches of eternity. So much bigger.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              34:56                   I looked at that verse 17, what’s the other place where the Savior says children? There’s one. There’s another place after Christ has ascended, Peter says, I go fishing. They’re back on the boat. He says children, he calls them children. They come to the shore and he says, Peter, there’s 153 fish. This is how I visualize it. He holds up one. He says, Peter, do you love me more than this fish?

Hank Smith:                      35:29                   Yeah.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              35:30                   Peter says, well, of course I do, and maybe he picks up a little bigger fish and says, what about this one? You know. He’s like, of course I do. Then Elder Holland’s words. I need disciples forever.

John Bytheway:               35:45                   I like how he says, Peter, if I want fish, I can get fish.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              35:48                   I can get fish.

John Bytheway:               35:54                   I can even put coins in their mouth if you want. That’s a temporal salvation thing.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              36:01                   Think about this verily verily, I say unto you, ye are little children. Ye have not yet understood how great blessings the father has in his own hands and prepared for you. I am that person all the time. I am that person who does not get how much heavenly father wants to bless me. I’ve heard it said, we live far beneath our privileges.

Hank Smith:                      36:26                   Yeah.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              36:28                   Verse 18 started it. Ye cannot bear all things now, nevertheless, be of good cheer for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours and the riches of eternity are yours and He who receiveth all things with thankfulness. I think there’s a powerful principle in that.

Hank Smith:                      36:55                   Stay humble and I can get you because I look at this, Matt, all that we’ve looked at today and thought, I don’t know if I’m ever going to get this. This is so far. I’m so far from where the end result is. You hear that in verse 19. If you’ll stay humble, be thankful for the little things I give you. I will get you there.

John Bytheway:               37:19                   Yeah. It’s easy to sit here and understand that yeah doing it Hank. In fact, what you said, Matt, over and over. Time, talents, for some people it’s easy to write a check, here, do this. But when you see a guy pull over and help another guy with his sprinklers, that’s a heart. I’m giving up my day to go help you do this.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              37:45                   You see people. You know people. You are those people. There is a caution, and I think it’s back in Mosiah chapter four, verse 27, which says this, because I can see sometimes we’re sitting out there saying, well, man, I’m not doing enough. I can’t do it all. How do I just give everything to the Lord like these people did? I want to, but I can’t.

Hank Smith:                      38:08                   Yeah.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              38:09                   Verse 27 in Mosiah four says this. See that all these things are done in wisdom and order for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength, and again, it is expedient he should be diligent and that thereby he might win the prize. Therefore, all things must be done. There’s a little bit of a, what more can I do? How can I give a little more? How can I be a little more consecrated? What does that look like? Is it something in my ward? Is it my ministering assignment? Is it something in my family? Is it personal connection with heavenly Father that will help change my heart more? Is it more time in the temple? What is it that’s going to let the Lord change my heart into a heart like his, that helps me want to be equal in all things and helps me want to help others be equal in heavenly things. This organization in the United Firm, I think it’s a bigger, bigger deal. The Lord’s trying to solve bigger issues here. Where the church is now, the church is independent. We’re to that point where it may stand independent above all creatures beneath the celestial world, but how long has it taken him to get us here?

Hank Smith:                      39:33                   I loved how many times you’ve shown us here, how often he brings up the bigger issues.

John Bytheway:               39:39                   Yeah. I’m marking salvation of man and celestial.

Hank Smith:                      39:44                   Heavenly things, celestial world that the church may stand independent, the great things the Father has prepared for you, the riches of eternity. He’s reminding him, look, I’m about much bigger things. Stay with me.

John Bytheway:               39:58                   Than a printing press. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      40:01                   Those things are going to help get us there. Right. But don’t lose sight.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              40:04                   We need the resources to be able to do it. We have to manage those resources the right way, and that’s what the United Firm was supposed to do. Some of it was out of their control. Some of that was externally imposed that they lost it. We have a system in place now where we really can be above the world. We really can be out of this telestial space. You think about where we make those covenants in the temple. It’s in a higher place. It’s in a different place. We covenant to have our hearts different, to be different. Not just do different but be different to think and act and be like the Lord in how we view other people. That’s why I wanted to start with Mosiah because that’s the sign that we’ve obtained a remission of our sins. Why is retaining a remission of our sins connected to what we do for others? Those two great commandments, right? First, we love God with all of our heart, might, mind and strength because he is the God who knows the beginning and the end. He has provided this plan for us and as we help assist in this work to carry this plan and covenant to the world, prepare the world for the second coming. Every one of these sections here, the challenges that they had, God, he’s just been creating a path to the fulfillment of this covenant in the world. It’s remarkable to watch.

Hank Smith:                      41:39                   It seems like I want an extreme makeover and the Lord wants, no, no, no. We are going for a very slow and steady transformation. The patience he has as he lays this out for them.

John Bytheway:               41:55                   The parallels for us personally, sometimes we think a mighty change of heart means an instant change of heart. Maybe it’s incremental to where we don’t even realize, I mean, you’ve had young people who’ve come home from missions. Oh, I’m not sure I grew spiritually that much, and you’re looking at them like what?

Hank Smith:                      42:14                   You definitely did. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               42:16                   We could be patient with ourselves as well. There’s exceptional cases in the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith:                      42:22                   Right, right. But even then, yeah, there’s years involved.

John Bytheway:               42:27                   We could be patient with our own becoming.

Hank Smith:                      42:30                   Matt Hinton, I’ve known you a long time, known you almost 30 years. I knew you were good, but this has exceeded my expectations. We have two more sections left, 79 and 80. What do you want to do here?

Dr. Matt Hinton:              42:43                   I’ve tried to put this under the question today of what’s the Lord trying to reveal about himself. These are two mission calls. Jared Carter is section 79. There were a few others also. Both of these two receive mission calls. They come into the church in 1831. Jared does. Stephen Burnett. He comes in at 1830. He’s converted by John Murdock. They serve a number of missions. Jared Carter has actually come back from a mission when he comes to Joseph to ask about what he should do next. Jared’s an interesting one because Jared, it said that he had the gift to heal, and there’s a couple of stories where Jared was able to heal people.

John Bytheway:               43:29                   We’ve had Steve Harper on here before. He wrote this book called Context. Jared Carter, this is so interesting. It says, he battled opposition and bouts of depression. He kept careful track of his obedience to the revelation and the fulfillment of the promised blessings. His records testify that as promised, the Lord sent him the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, to teach him the truth and where he should go. Since Jared was faithful to section 79, the Lord crowned him again with a bountiful harvest. Jared summarized his service after returning in October. Here is brother Jared Carter’s own words. I have been gone six months and two days. The Lord has permitted me to administer the gospel to 79 souls and many others by my instrumentality have been convinced of this most glorious work. Back to Steve Harper, he rejoiced on the completion of his difficult yet successful mission. Then quote from Brother Carter again. God has blessed me according to the prophecy of Brother Joseph before I went from Ohio. That’s how I’m going to remember that. He said in his words that he brought the gospel to 79 souls in section 79.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              44:45                   I think the main point between these two sections is you look at Jared Carter’s call. If you look at, let’s just read those, there’s four verses. Verily I say unto you that it is my will that my servant Jared Carter, should go into the eastern countries from place to place, from city to city in the power of the ordination wherewith he has been ordained, he was ordained a priest proclaiming glad tidings of great joy, even the everlasting gospel. I will send upon him the Comforter, which shall teach him the truth and the way wither he shall go, and inasmuch as he is faithful, I’ll crown him again with sheaves. Wherefore, let your heart be glad my servant Jared Carter and fear not saith the Lord even Jesus Christ, amen. His call is very specific, needs to go to the eastern countries and proclaim the gospel. He has a couple of really influential converts. One of Jared Carter’s converts is John Tanner. That story is pretty important to the Kirtland Temple, right?

Hank Smith:                      45:50                   Yeah and to the church. This would be a great place for people to pick up TC Christiansen’s, the John Tanner story. Great place to stop and watch that. TC’s a friend of ours, I know his wife enjoys the show. Maybe he should come on and direct this. It is such a well done film.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              46:14                   This is where the healing ability of Jared Carter comes in. Jared Carter was said to have this gift to heal. He in the home of John Tanner. John Tanner had that leg issue, that serious disease. Jared Carter pretty much commands him to stand and walk. He ends up walking the quarter mile to the lake there to get baptized. Within two years, John Tanner has a dream. In that dream he’s told he is needed in Kirtland. He sells everything. As he gets to Kirtland, he finds out that the brethren had been praying to save the Kirtland temple. He donates over a period of time, I think it’s estimated $50,000, which is a ton of money to save the church. Here’s a missionary that’s fulfilling a call to go to a place to teach a person that he has no idea the influence that person will have in the church.

                                           47:15                   What does that reveal about the character of God? What does that reveal about the Savior of the world who’s organizing a work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man? There’s just so much going on than we have any idea. I think the next chapter, section 80, is to Stephen Burnett. Stephen Burnett isn’t in the church a long time. He’s 1838. He’s gone because of the way Joseph said it was. He sought after money and he became more interested in money, but his call’s a little bit interesting. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Stephen Burnett, go ye, go ye into the world and preach the gospel to every creature that cometh under the sound of your voice and inasmuch you desire a companion I’ll give to you my servant, Eden Smith. Now, Eden gets sick and so he ends up going with John Smith first Eden does end up joining him later.

                                           48:11                   Wherefore, go ye and preach my gospel, whither to the north, to the south, to the east or to the west it mattereth not for you cannot go amiss. Therefore, declare the things which you have heard and verily believe and know to be true. Behold, this is the will of him who hath called you, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, amen. Elder Bednar, if you look in the Come, Follow Me this week, Elder Bednar, he talks about that our callings are called to serve the Lord. We’re assigned to a place, that place can be changed. He talks about sometimes people have a hard time when they get a call somewhere, they get an assignment somewhere and that assignment is changed and they feel like maybe they didn’t fulfill their missionary call. You have listeners probably out there listening that some have been called to serve God.

                                           49:10                   Those mission calls are really clear. You’re called to be a representative of Jesus Christ, to preach the restored gospel and you’re assigned to labor in the field of wherever that is. Then they get there because of physical or other difficulties, they have to come home and that assignment changes to a service mission. Their assignment as a proselyting mission or as a service missionary, you’re still called to do the same work. You’re still called to be the same person, to be the same representative of Jesus Christ. We have 12 right now service missionaries in our stake that are amazing missionaries who are assigned to labor as service missionaries who are called by God, by a prophet to serve and to be representatives of Him in whatever capacity they are in, and it’s not any less a call from God, from his prophet. The message I take from these two sections is some people are going to be called to specific places, but most of us are just called to be representatives of Jesus Christ. Doesn’t matter where we do that.

                                           50:21                   We need to do it every day of our life, whether that’s I’m a ministering brother, whether it’s I’m a ministering sister, whether we have specific callings or whether we’re not called to anything. It doesn’t mean that we aren’t called to preach the gospel. Look what he says to Stephen Burnett. Therefore declare the things which ye have heard, this is verse four, and verily believe and know to be true. It doesn’t matter where you do that. It doesn’t matter whether you’re in a little tiny town or whether you’re in a big city. It doesn’t matter if you’re in a major calling. It doesn’t matter if you’re a primary teacher. We’re called to be representatives of Jesus Christ, to carry forth his work and his gospel to all the world. That’s the message I get from Jared Carter. There are people that you will touch and you will bring that you have no idea the influence they will have.

                                           51:18                   When I went back to my mission 13 years after I served in Panama and I went back to the dedication of the Panama Temple. As I’m sitting there at the Panama Temple, my last area in Panama was this place called Changuinola. We had all kinds of adversity in this area. There were two families that, one, we reactivated, the dad baptized the son, and then I got transferred before the mom could be baptized. Her sister lived down the road. We reactivated her and her family. That was the only success we had in this area. I won’t get into the details of all the difficulty, the challenges, but I called my mission president. I was like, president, we have a lot of opposition here, and he made this statement to me. He said, Elder Hinton, you’re going to be the start of a work you won’t see finished. 13 years later, when I went back, I bumped into this family at the dedication. They were one of the first families sealed in the Panama Temple.

                                           52:19                   We had baptized the son. He went on a mission. The mom got baptized. We’d reactivated the dad. The dad was serving as a district president at the time, and they’d gotten a building. These two families that we worked with were the core of the church in this little area in Panama. We loved these people and they asked us to be witnesses at their sealing, so I got to be the witness at the sealing of this family. I remember coming out of that temple and wanting to get on a bus full of missionaries right there and just saying, there’s not anything better that you can do in your life than what you’re doing right now to serve the Lord. Whether that’s a call to go somewhere or whether that’s just at your home, in your family, be the representative of Jesus Christ that he needs you to be. That’s the message I get from Jared Carter and Stephen Burnett. You don’t know who you’re going to influence. You don’t know the impact they’re going to have on God’s kingdom because he sees the beginning and the end. He knows what he’s going to do with those people. You don’t. Be grateful to be part of the journey.

Hank Smith:                      53:32                   Matt, this has been fantastic. I do not want it to end. When we first started, I said, I don’t think these sections are a lot alike. You said, well, there is a theme here. What if we said 77 is the plan of salvation, God’s message to all of his children, 78, the plan of salvation, God’s message to the saints of 1832, even the Saints of 2025, 79 and 80, God’s message to the individuals macro, a little more focused. Now you have a role. I don’t know if that’s on purpose, but I loved it.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              54:16                   I love how God reveals himself, his character, and his power and his motives and his desires and his attributes to each of us to try to help us have a covenant relationship with him so that we can be prepared, so we can participate in this gathering, in this good that is growing in the world, and he needs the Jared Carters and he needs the Stephen Burnetts, and he needs the Hanks and the Johns, and he needs the Matts. He wants to reveal himself to each individual that he knows He’s got us. He’s always got us. He’s always had us just as he has everybody else that has ever existed on this earth from the ancient of days to now, he is seeking to make himself known, to unveil, reveal himself to all of us. Any chance I get to bear testimony of Jesus Christ, who he is, what he means to me, what he’s done for me and my family, to share that, to bear witness that he is the Savior of the world, the lamb that was slain, that opens the book, that makes it possible. I want to take that opportunity. I love him and I’m grateful for him. I hope that he keeps changing my heart so that I can be more of the kind of person that can help him continue to build his kingdom, because that’s what he’s doing. He’s building his kingdom on the earth, the church of the firstborn. He wants all of us to be part of it, and I’m grateful to be part of that.

Hank Smith:                      56:07                   It’ll transform us. Let’s not forget that everything we’ve looked at today and found the power in came from a 26-year-old. 26-year-old guy in 1832. Let’s not forget that part.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              56:23                   If that doesn’t show you God can work miracles with anybody. He’s in the vineyard with us.

John Bytheway:               56:30                   You could characterize it as, I don’t know, a marvelous work and a wonder.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              56:34                    Something like that.

Hank Smith:                      56:35                   That’s an accurate description. Matt, if we could have talked about this as EFY counselors in the 19 hundreds and I said, Matt, one day, one day we’re going to be on a podcast talking about the Doctrine and Covenants.

John Bytheway:               56:53                   Hank with the calling that I have right now, I got up at 4:30 AM so that I could link to a Zoom at 5:00 AM and talk to some brothers in the Philippines where I served in the eighties. Hank had you told me that one day I would see the Urdaneta area there, a town in which had no missionaries, no branch now has a temple. I love verse three of section 80. Preach the gospel north, south, east, west. You cannot go amiss. That’s a great line right there. Can’t go amiss. You cannot get this wrong. If you just preach my gospel, you go anywhere. I love that one.

Hank Smith:                      57:39                   I’ll make it work. Dr. Matt Hinton, thank you for spending time with us today.

Dr. Matt Hinton:              57:45                   Thank you both. I have loved being here. I’ve loved learning together. I love the Savior and I’m grateful to be part of his work.

Hank Smith:                      57:53                   We’re grateful you’re a part of it, a very good day. We hate to see it end, but we need to say goodbye and thank Dr. Matt Hinton for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. Every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. I could see him putting his fist. Yeah, baby. Like after this, after an episode like this, he’d be like, Brother Hank.

John Bytheway:               58:20                   A good standard of truth has been erected episode, riget? Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      58:24                   We love him, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’ve got more of the Doctrine and Covenants on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website, follow him.co. That’s follow him dot CO. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Iride Gonzalez, and Annabelle Sorensen.