John Bytheway:             00:00                Welcome to part two with Dr. Jason Whiting Doctrine and Covenants section 64 through 66.

Hank Smith:                  00:07                I’ve noticed in section 64 verse 17, Satan seeks to destroy souls. I think it’s helpful to maybe remember who the actual enemy is.

John Bytheway:             00:18                Yeah.

Hank Smith:                  00:18                It’s not that person. We have a common enemy who wants to destroy souls and families and relationships.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         00:25                A lot of times when people are coming to therapy because they’re hurting and because there’s pain, they see each other as the enemy. That is a good reminder to say, you guys aren’t each other’s enemies. You guys are in the same boat. The problem is the contention or the things that have gotten in the way. It’s not you guys. You’re on the same team. When people can start working together on the contention or whatever it is, that is a much better situation than seeing the other as the enemy.

John Bytheway:             00:53                I can’t even remember how many years ago this was Hank, but we had some family disagreement that we all had to sit down. I was like, you guys, this isn’t mom against you or this isn’t dad against you. This is all of us against Satan. To reframe it that way seemed to help a lot, and this is all of us against the adversary. The adversary loves seeing us pitted against each other. He’s against all of us.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         01:21                Again, back to peacemakers needed, President Nelson reminded us of that in that talk, he said, contention is always of Satan. Anger helps no one. It’s always a problem. You can just know if you’re starting to go down that road, it’s going to start causing problems and hurt feelings.

Hank Smith:                  01:37                Yeah. Let’s say it’s a relationship in which the person is genuinely trying to change. Let’s say someone grew up in a manipulative home. They spent 18 years learning that language. Now they’re in a marriage. They’ve found that their language is manipulative and difficult. They want to change that. What do you do in that case, Jason, because this isn’t someone who’s malicious. This isn’t someone who’s refusing to change. This is someone who has years of, I’m sure that you have terms for it, years of unhealthy behavior that now they are going to try to somehow change all of that.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         02:23                It’s a common scenario. There’s a lot of people who have grown up where there’s intergenerational kinds of traumas and problems. Not just bad skills, but harmful things that were done. It’s not even that one that you learn or you see from, you see bad examples and that is a thing. You learn bad examples, but also if it’s unhealthy, if you’re traumatized, your body learns to, for example, protect itself. It learns to be stressed out all the time because I don’t want to get hurt. I mean, I’m in a situation whether that’s a anger or a psychological abuse or physical or worse. You’re right that that leaves some challenging tendencies that people have, that they have learned through those traumatic experiences.

Hank Smith:                  03:11                Right. Coping skills, whatever.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         03:13                Yeah. Yeah. They’ve learned to cope with life as best as they can. Some of those things are by putting up defenses by, we were talking earlier about, you know how somebody is going to be really reactive if they’ve got some PTSD. Well, that’s a real thing, and a person might be oversensitive to somebody’s difference. Somebody might say, Hey, do you mind putting your dishes away? That person might feel like, Hey, why are you attacking me or being critical? There may be no criticism. It’s just a request. Honestly, that’s some of the things that we’ve been talking about where some people are oversensitive to perceived slights or differences. There’s sometimes that kind of thing. There’s histories of criticisms or whatever.

Hank Smith:                  03:54                That you had to defend yourself as a kid or something.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         03:56                That’s right. You learned to be in a defensive posture a lot that was adaptive. That made sense, but now you’re not in a situation where you have to defend yourself. In the best case scenario, in a healthy relationship, people start to unlearn and to relearn those things. They start to feel safer. They talk those things out. There obviously are a lot of professional resources such as therapy or books or even blogs or church resources. There’s a lot of healing that can take place. If somebody seeks that. That’s what happens. In the best case scenario, people work on it and they learn together. They overcome things In the less healthy situations, they kind of dig into and continue to do the things that are a result of their own fears and defenses. That’s hard. If there’s not an openness, a humility and accountability, things probably won’t change, but it always can change.

                                    04:49                Things can always change. I would want to reiterate that message that even in the most difficult of situations in families or with abuse or with addiction or affairs, things can change. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be easy, but it can change. I’ve seen situations where I think there is no way these guys are going to turn this around. Sometimes they do. It’s really impressive. I think there’s a lot of factors that go into that. Sometimes people will say, can this marriage be saved? I will say, yeah, almost always it can, but whether the people are willing to do the work is the next question. It doesn’t happen overnight because sometimes people will say, give me another chance. I can change, and that’s true. They can change, but unless they’re willing to say, I’m going to work on this really hard for a year, then a promise is just a promise.

Hank Smith:                  05:44                Dr. Whiting and I, John, have a mutual friend in Amanda Christensen. She’s a therapist out in Spanish Fork. She said something interesting. She says, look, you may have this behavior that served you as a teenager or as a child. You can say to that behavior, thank you. You served me well. You helped me survive. I don’t need that. We’re not in that situation anymore. It’s okay to stand down, you know, hate yourself. You don’t hate that part of you. You say it was useful. Then it’s no longer useful.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         06:16                If you’re a little kid and you see two big parents stomping around the house throwing things, you learn, I gotta keep my defenses up or have my adrenaline pumping and I’ve gotta hide or whatever. I gotta keep those defenses, but that may or may not apply when you’re an adult in a healthy relationship, but your body is still saying, well, we better be careful, but that may be now not helping you at all. It may be tricking you into thinking this person is an enemy and a threat and they’re going to abandon you, and they probably are not. You can let those defenses go, but you have to work through that. The body really hangs on to stuff. We learn things at a deep level that our body’s trying to protect us with that maybe we have to then unlearn.

John Bytheway:             06:55                One of the things I love about my wife of the million things, she will stop and say, why am I feeling this way? She’ll step away from herself and evaluate it. I think, wow, that’s really cool that you can go through that and maybe even adjust because you’re able to step aside from yourself and say, why do I feel this way right now?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         07:17                Well, it’s a great question because so often our feelings are not accurate, if that makes sense. Like they flare up because of maybe we’re tired or maybe we are defensive or, or whatever it is. If we can stop and say, why am I getting irritable ? Maybe it’s because my spouse is being difficult, but it might be that I’ve had a long day and I’ve still got some stuff in my head from something earlier. My spouse is 12% of the problem, but I’m acting as though they’re 90% of the problem. To be reflective like your spouse does, that’s a great skill to do that and to stop and say, what’s going on here?

John Bytheway:             07:54                Yeah, I feel rotten. I’m going to make everybody pay.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         07:58                Yeah, exactly. That’s what we often do.

Hank Smith:                  08:00                John, do you remember when Dr. Doug Benson was with us last year in the book of Ether, and he talked about that. If you can notice that you’re feeling angry, that’s a huge step. Instead of going on autopilot in anger, you’re saying, whoa. I think he called it mindfulness. I’m mindful that I’m feeling angry. Everybody should go back. If you haven’t listened to our book of Ether episodes, they were awesome, all three of them, but that one with Dr. Benson was great.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         08:27                I’m actually related to Dr. Doug Benson. My little brother is married into his family. I listened to that episode. I’m a fan of mindfulness. That idea of being more aware of what’s going on for us in our own physical containers is really helpful. We often get really disconnected from it, including with things like anger.

Hank Smith:                  08:46                All right Jason, what do you want to do next?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         08:48                Okay. Let me talk a little bit about how forgiveness of others sometimes includes our own reflection and our own repentance. I know that’s a tricky thing to talk about because often when we are wounded, we feel like the other person is responsible and a lot of times people are. That is fair to say, people are genuinely victimized, but it’s also fair to say that sometimes in our pains, in our hurts that we sometimes do things in return that are not helpful. Let me share a quick story. This is from a book of mine. I told you I teach classes at BYU about addiction and about violence. This is a story about addiction where a woman and a man were engaged. He was struggling with an addictive behavior. The relationship was moving towards marriage, but instead… with the understanding that he was going to work on this issue, but he really didn’t.

                                    09:37                He became more defensive about it. He said, why are you being so judgemental? He minimized. He didn’t really want to take it seriously and work on it, so eventually there was a breakup, so this woman said this left her feeling really inadequate, really anxious, really down on herself, and she didn’t trust people after that, here’s what she said, this is her story. I realized that I not only needed to forgive that boyfriend, but I also needed to apologize to him. That was really difficult. I finally met with him and simply explained that I had felt resentful towards him and I needed to apologize. The relief and peace I felt was overwhelming. Even though he didn’t apologize or express any remorse for anything he had done, I knew I had taken an important step in my own recovery. That’s a powerful story because she didn’t excuse him.

                                    10:33                He didn’t really even take accountability. She just focused on her own forgiveness of him. She also wanted to apologize for the things that she felt angry and resentful about, and again, I’m not trying to suggest ever that somebody who’s been victimized is now responsible for repenting themselves. I’m just saying in relationships when there’s hard feelings and when things happen, sometimes we do things that we are hanging on to. We are resenting and we are becoming angry. That part of our own repentance can also be freeing and healing. I mean, she said it brought her relief and peace in my mind, again, that’s part of the liberating power of forgiveness is that she wasn’t dependent on him changing. He had hurt her. He had not apologized for it, but she was still able to find relief and peace through her forgiveness of him as well as her own, just apologizing for whatever role she felt like she carried in that and that’s about her work with the Savior and her work with repentance and forgiveness. It’s a powerful connection to the Atonement and then just a reminder that we all have that ability to access.

Hank Smith:                  11:48                That’s really great. Look at section 64, verse 34. The Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind. It sounds like that’s what she was offering.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         11:57                Yeah.

Hank Smith:                  11:59                Giving her heart to the Lord.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         12:01                Yeah, and she said it was really hard. I bet it was because she could have been justified in saying, he’s the one. I didn’t do anything really. He did a lot of stuff, but she also just realized she had done some things, some attitudes or resentment that she didn’t want to have. I think that sometimes is powerful for us to apologize for our stuff too.

Hank Smith:                  12:23                Jason, why is it that that’s good for me? So let’s say this person deeply hurt and wounded me. You’re saying it’s good for me to maybe look at myself or repent myself and apologize myself. Why is that good for me? I know it is, but why is it?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         12:38                We sometimes feel very justified in our anger and our resentment and in many cases it is justified, but I think sometimes we then also take it to the next level and nurture and kind of hang on to those resentments. That’s where it starts to become problematic. I would not want to judge somebody for struggling with their hurts. Sometimes we do this thing where we start to build up our own case. I think it’s also one of the reasons why it’s problematic to gossip, for example, because we are then going to someone else like, wait till you hear what happened to me. You know, wait till you hear what this person did or what this person said, and you know, sometimes colleagues will do that or we’ll do it in our wards. People will talk about, wait till you hear this thing happen. That’s when it starts to turn in back to seeking occasion.

                                    13:30                It’s never helpful for the soul to indulge in self-pity or anger, but it’s certainly part of the natural man that I think we’re just always constantly working on letting go of. Even when we’re justified it sometimes we are angry or feeling bad for ourselves because something genuinely bad happened. That’s totally understandable. Jesus is saying, I will help you. I’ve already paid the price for that. You don’t need to pay an additional price, which is relevant for a few quotes here I’ll get to in just a second, but it’s a resistance of God and of Christ’s atonement when we do that.

Hank Smith:                  14:06                Alright, Jason, now I promised before that I wouldn’t ask questions and I broke my promise, but I promise again, you’re going to ask me to work on this. It’s to promise. If I’m not.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         14:14                We’ll keep forgiving you every time.

Hank Smith:                  14:17                Alright, keep going.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         14:18                That just highlights this idea that the Atonement is what helps us forgive. Jesus has paid the price for sins, including other people’s sins, so let me come back to Sister Yee’s talk. She says, over the years and in my efforts to find peace and healing on the path of forgiveness, I came to realize in a profound way that the same son of God who atoned for my sins is the same Redeemer who will also save those who have deeply hurt me. I could not truly believe the first truth without the second. As my love for the Savior has grown, so has my desire to replace hurt and anger with his healing balm. It has been a process of many years requiring courage, vulnerability, perseverance, and learning to trust in the Savior’s divine power to save and heal.

                                    15:08                I still have work to do, but my heart is no longer on a war path. I have been given a new heart. She’s being vulnerable in describing this process, but sharing that change and how the same atonement that blesses her also has blessed and paid the price for others who have hurt her. I have a follow-up quote related to this idea, back to why. Why refusing to forgive is a sin. This is from James Rasband who used to be the academic vice president at BYU. He’s now a general authority. This is from a really good devotional he gave on forgiveness that I’d recommend. He says, this is a very strong statement. If we refuse to forgive there remaineth in us the greater sin, how can this be? Our salvation is conditioned on forgiving others because when we refuse to forgive, what we are really saying is that we reject or don’t quite trust the atonement and it is our acceptance of the atonement that ultimately saves us.

Hank Smith:                  16:08                That makes sense why it’s the greater sin, meaning you’re not the worst person in the situation. You’re going to be worse off because you’re rejecting the very power that can save you.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         16:21                Yeah. Again, it’s about us healing and being blessed by the atonement and allowing the atonement to heal and bless others regardless of whether we continue in a relationship with someone else. We can allow and trust in the atonement to do that work. Here’s another quote from Terry Warner. He says, the Savior has taken upon himself the sins of those whom you judge and those persons against whom you have caused to anger. Just as he is an advocate pleading your cause at the throne of the Father, he stands before you asking your forgiveness of one who has offended you and offers his sacrifice to satisfy your sense of justice. Is his atonement inadequate? Must you add your own condemnation for the other person to really be healed? Pretty challenging doctrine. I think at times when we feel hurt and angry, but a good reminder for us to say, do we really trust the atonement? Can I give up those burdens to the Savior? We’ve all seen people who don’t do that, who hang on to slights, who resent and are angry for their whole life, and that’s a heavy burden to carry that they don’t need to carry because the Savior has already done it.

John Bytheway:             17:38                Here’s all these guys on the Missouri River. They don’t like the way Oliver Cowdery is rowing. Joseph Smith is acting like a dictator. What are these guys in their twenties? For me, part of my testimony of the Doctrine and Covenants is look at the beauty and the eloquence of these statements. They’re coming out of this situation. There’s just a bunch of young guys and they’re learning some pretty big lessons right here.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         18:04                Stuff we all still work on throughout our lives.

Hank Smith:                  18:08                It’s amazing to me, John and Jason, that the Lord can take an argument on the river, turn it into this beautiful revelation, life changing. Before we leave this idea, how long could we talk about this relationships, forgiveness, repentance.

John Bytheway:             18:27                It’s so applicable. Yeah.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         18:29                Yeah. It’s the work of a lifetime. Just like with so many principles of the gospel, we need reminders. We need to say, oh yes, I need to work on this. Yes, I need to be more charitable and more forgiving. It’s what we’re down here to do. The families that we live in, the wards that we live in, we work on this stuff and some people really have a seemingly a disproportionate amount of trials and traumas, but nevertheless, we all work on these things. I think one of the reasons it’s a challenging doctrine is because the Savior is asking us to do the challenging work of having faith in his atonement, which it’s so easy for us to rely on ourself, do this work and do our relationships as we normally do, but sometimes I think we get pushed to the next level is the way for God to say, you need to be more humble and more trusting in the atonement. That’s ultimately where the healing can come.

Hank Smith:                  19:26                One of my students today, Brooklyn Condie, she taught me a little mantra that I love. She said, I don’t just believe in Jesus. I believe him, and she says it to herself when she’s struggling. I don’t just believe in him. I believe him when he says He can fix these things.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         19:43                Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a doctrine we have to remind ourselves of on a regular basis at least. I tend to just go throughout my day and trust in the arm of the flesh and do my thing, but sometimes I bump up against these things. I’m like, oh, that’s hard. I need some help. That’s why God lets us struggle with some of this stuff.

John Bytheway:             20:03                I love the ideas of justice and mercy. Sometimes we want, we want mercy for ourselves and justice for others. You know?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         20:11                That’s right.

John Bytheway:             20:13                The idea that there’s an ultimate justice that ultimately that everyone will be held accountable. Sometimes we like that except for me because I would like mercy for this, this, this, this. We feel like if I’m forgiving too many people, well I, I want there to be some justice out there somewhere. It’s interesting how the Savior can hold those perfectly together as the Book of Mormon teaches us that the Lord, he knows how to do this. I think about these five words in section 64, Hank, you know I love to say a sermon in a sentence, verse seven. What do you say, Hank? This should be put in vinyl, on somebody’s wall.

Hank Smith:                  20:53                Yeah.

John Bytheway:             20:53                I the Lord forgive sins. Just that part. He’s a forgiver. We call him a redeemer, but that’s kind of the same thing. I’m going to redeem you. I’m going to forgive you. I the Lord forgive sin. Here he is saying, this is what I do, which is a nice relieving thing to hear.

Hank Smith:                  21:13                I have written in my scriptures here, John, from four years ago with Dr. S Michael Wilcox. The Lord is a delightful forgiver.

John Bytheway:             21:20                He delights.

Hank Smith:                  21:21                I the Lord forgive sins. It’s what I do.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         21:27                I have a quote that relates to that and this is from Elder Holland’s talk on reconciliation. He says, notwithstanding even the most terrible offenses that might come to us, we can rise above our pain. Only when we put our feet onto the path of true healing, that path is the forgiving one walked by Jesus of Nazareth who calls out to each of us. Come, follow me. I testify that forgiving and forsaking offenses, old or new is central to the grandeur of the atonement of Jesus Christ. I testify that ultimately such spiritual repair can come only from our divine redeemer. He who rushes to our aid with healing in his wings, a future free from old sorrows and past mistakes are not only possible, but they have already been purchased, paid for at an excruciating cost eloquent statement from Elder Holland about the Savior who, like you said, delights to forgive. He is rushing to our aid with healing in his wings and has paid for all of those sorrows and mistakes.

Hank Smith:                  22:30                Yeah, I’ve noticed when I’m getting more in tune with the spirit, forgiveness becomes easier.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         22:36                Sure.

Hank Smith:                  22:37                But my heart is touched. I think I can do this. I can forgive. John you know this, my mouth has a tendency to offend. There’s supposed to be a filter that says, don’t say that, and then I say it. I don’t know if this is a gift or not, but my ability to offend others and be forgiven has helped me forgive because of how many times I’ve had to be forgiven.

John Bytheway:             23:00                That’s that doctrine of reciprocity.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         23:03                If we want to be forgiven, we need to learn to be forgiving of others. It’s said in multiple ways in the scriptures. That’s part of our challenge.

Hank Smith:                  23:11                It’s impressive. John, do you remember a couple weeks ago when Andy Horton was with us and he talked about that woman he asked to speak in stake conference? She sat on the stand and he never had her speak.

John Bytheway:             23:23                That’s right.

Hank Smith:                  23:24                Then he took her flowers to apologize. It was just so sweet how she said, it’s okay. I didn’t need to give the talk. I just needed to prepare it. It was so beautiful because she could, she could be deeply offended, but she wasn’t.

John Bytheway:             23:39                Good response.

Hank Smith:                  23:41                Jason, this is so helpful. Something that John and I and our entire team talk about every week is that we want to help people. I think what we’ve done so far today, if we decide we’re going to implement it, can change the trajectory of a relationship entirely. I just want to say thank you. Keep going. Tell us what to do next.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         24:05                Well, in that spirit, as we wrap up some of our discussions about forgiveness, let me sum up steps we can take as we’re working on forgiving. I’m not trying to oversimplify or make this just a top 10 list or whatever, but I want to summarize some of the things that we can do to forgive. First, I would say if you’re working on letting go and forgiving, the first thing you can do is acknowledge that it is hard, that pain is real. Relationships are going to have bumps. We are all going to get hurt sometimes, maybe even in our LDS culture, we, back to John’s comment about Elder Hafen’s and the marriage, right? The marriages are going to be bliss. It’s going to be great, and I’m a return missionary. It’s true. All those things are great, but it doesn’t mean they’re always easy. It’s okay to say, I’ve had my feelings hurt and this is hard.

                                    24:54                Next step I would say, is to then seek guidance from the Lord. Talk to God about it. When you’re feeling hurt, when you’re feeling frustrated, back to that reflection of John’s wife, what’s going on with me right now? Why am I feeling what I’m feeling? Can I sort this through? It’s one of the reasons prayer is so great. It’s naturally therapeutic. We’re talking something out with a loving and understanding God. It’s a good place to kind of talk through and let go of some of those things. Sometimes that’s maybe all that it will take. Third step, I would say, is to understand and trust in the atonement, which as we’ve talked about, we sometimes forget, but it’s really central to what we’re about and having faith in the atonement, it’s efficacy is going to be pretty important, especially for bigger cases of forgiveness. Related to that, trusting in God’s judgment, he is the judge.

                                    25:44                As we were saying earlier. He knows what someone else’s history, what their choices are, what they aren’t. He can make that call in a way that we can’t. It’s hard for us to let go of some of that sometimes and to let God be the judge, but it’s helpful when we can turn that over to him. Next step I would say, is to recognize imperfection. We all, including the person that hurt us, are imperfect. Sometimes as we think through and as we pray about and as we try to put ourselves in someone else’s shoes, that can be helpful in healthy marriages. This actually happens a lot. People say, she’s a great person. She was a little snippy, but that’s not how she usually is. I’m not going to worry about that. In less healthy situations, people hold onto that stuff and they say, you said this thing.

                                    26:33                They’re seeking occasion. They’re picking at, but in more healthy situations we say, you know what? We’re not perfect. We’re going to move on. That relates to the next step, which is to be empathetic, saying, you have your trials. Sometimes I’m the one contributing to some of your trials. That’s fair to talk through as well, and I don’t know how often I’ve thought in my own head, maybe after her feeling like my wife and I we’re going to talk about this. I know she’s going to understand because I feel so justified in my perspective and I have that conversation. Suddenly realize, oh, she sees it very differently than I do. How can this be? But she doesn’t automatically agree with everything that I’m saying. That’s okay.

Hank Smith:                  27:16                That part about acknowledging that you’re someone’s big trial, aren’t I a gift to you? I’m giving you all these chances to learn how to forgive

Dr. Jason Whiting:         27:28                Someone somewhere is giving a sacrament meeting talk, saying, I had a really difficult missionary companion named Elder Whiting and he was a trial that I learned from.

Hank Smith:                  27:38                I learned so much.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         27:39                I had to pray and I had to learn how to forgive. Who knows that could be a thing.

Hank Smith:                  27:45                I’m going to tell Sara, I’m giving you so many opportunities to live the gospel. You need to be more grateful.

John Bytheway:             27:51                That’s right. Somebody said most of my problems I either married or gave birth to. Remember that?

Hank Smith:                  27:57                Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh man.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         28:01                Yeah. Our family members, man, they are right there in our interactions, families. We have different personalities, different power levels. We’re in proximity. Everybody has their emotions, their opinions. That is a cauldron for learning right there. Especially when you stick them all in a minivan together.

Hank Smith:                  28:18                Yeah. Jason, you’ll laugh at this. Dr. Melissa Inouye told us, John, we’ve referred to it so many times. God wants you to love your enemies. He puts them in your ward. He gives you plenty of times.

John Bytheway:             28:29                How convenient.

Hank Smith:                  28:30                Yeah. To practice.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         28:31                Yes. That’s part of the reason the church is true. It’s just an all these laboratories, we are each other’s clinical material. As Elder Maxwell used to say, we learn in addition to being empathetic, we have to make that choice. We choose to forgive. We work on that. That is sometimes we do it repeatedly. Research backs that up too. Sometimes after things like an affair for example, there may be a choice to forgive, but then there might come something else that comes up a few months later and somebody chooses again, as reminders happen, as things bump up, it’s an ongoing process and an ongoing choice. Another thing we have to work on is to let go of obsessing and ruminating how when you lay in bed sometimes and you think, I can’t believe when I posted that thing on Instagram that this person roasted me in that way and they misunderstood me and that wasn’t fair.

                                    29:22                That’s probably true. We have a tendency to hang on to and think about somebody falsely accused us or whatever. Those things happen. You have to kinda work at that back to mindfulness or taking a walk or or letting go in whatever ways you let go. That’s an ongoing process, which relates to the next tip, which is to be patient with the process. It might take time. You might have to be forgiving of your own self as you are working on forgiving others because it’s not going to be just this one time easy process. We’re all imperfect at that.

Hank Smith:                  29:57                Earlier you told us we might need to repent of not repenting. Now you’re telling us we might need to forgive ourselves for not forgiving.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         30:04                Exactly. Boy, that’s our life right there. Forgive yourself for not forgiving others adequately. Life is an ongoing series of lessons and schooling, and I just think you have to recognize that we all have our weaknesses and imperfections. It’s okay. It’s what we’re here for. Yeah. The last thing where it applies is to be thoughtful about your boundaries. Forgiveness isn’t trust. It isn’t even reconciliation necessarily. I hope it is a lot of the times and I hope people build trust and reconcile, but if it’s not, then you be thoughtful about that. You can choose to set limits. You can choose, for example, to not hang out with a coworker if they’re difficult. You can make choices around friends if they can be negative. That’s easier said than done then with family members where those choices become a little more difficult. But I’ve certainly worked with people who say, we can spend time with you in this way and in this space, but you can’t just drop by any time or I’m not okay with you saying that. Trying to set boundaries and negotiate those things, that’s part of the process too. Sometimes that’s really tricky. It’s okay to ask for and to request Christ-like and dignified communication. It’s possible to love someone and not trust them.

                                    31:26                My mission president used to say the David O. McKay saying, it’s better to be trusted than to be loved. Trust is another level. You might love somebody but say, I love you, but it’s not okay with what is happening in this relationship that sometimes is a hard choice to make. No, that is.

                                    31:43                Let me sum up our discussion about forgiveness with a story of a couple that I have worked with on and off. This is a couple where they both grew up in really unhealthy, abusive, manipulative homes. It really did leave a mark. These guys got together young. The husband in this situation struggled with some of the things we were talking about earlier of doing the kinds of things he had seen, which was to be manipulative, to use words as pressure to lie, to try to get his way, to try to get other people to do what he wanted. This was really hard on the wife who also struggled with her own self-esteem and feelings of guilt and inadequacy. They had some little kids at one point after a lot of psychological and other kinds of manipulative behaviors there was a separation and she said, this isn’t working.

                                    32:36                She was justified in that. A lot of people would say, this is a terrible marriage. You’ve gotta get out of this marriage. Well, there was a separation, but that instigated what was an interesting, humble, heartfelt effort at change on his part and hers as well. They both had some long conversations. They started going to some professional help. They did therapy. He went to a support group. They read things. Some pretty impressive changes happened. A lot of forgiveness was extended. Their interactions were different in their day-to-day family. There was much more accountability, for example, there was a lot more apologizing. There was a lot of saying, I realize I’m doing that thing that I used to do. I don’t want to do that. How can I be different? Some deep seated change. I asked him, this wasn’t that long ago. I said, of all the things you’ve done to change to get to this better place, because it wasn’t looking good and people were saying, you guys gotta get divorced, but here you are doing better.

                                    33:39                Everything isn’t perfect, but you guys are doing way better. I said, what has made the biggest change for you? Immediately he said, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and I said, really? Tell me more about that, and he said, my relationship with the Savior and he got a little emotional. This has helped me to soften and to see things that I was doing in ways that I was being hurtful that I didn’t see before because I was still just in my own pain. We had a conversation about it. It was cool to see that the humility that was helping both of them in their work with professionals also was a big part of their healing with the atonement and with the gospel. I mean, it was changing who they are to where this family history of toxic black water was now being purified to a pure stream of waters to where they were doing things differently with their kids and it was changing generations.

                                    34:29                It’s a powerful thing, and I’m not saying it’s all going to be easy and it’s all perfect, but his relationship with the Savior and their relationship with the Savior, with each other, with forgiving was really a powerful part of what was happening for them. It made me think of the power of the gospel and also made me think of this quote from President Nelson. He gave this on the world forgiveness day a couple of years ago. He said, forgiveness is not just a one-time act, but a continuous process that requires patience, compassion, and understanding. It is not always easy to forgive those who have hurt you. You can receive strength from Jesus Christ. Powerful stuff. What we do, as he said, as well really matters in relationships. When we make these kind of efforts to be forgiving, to be kind, to be loving, to soften it immediately is helpful. It’s part of our ongoing learning, part of our journey here throughout life.

John Bytheway:             35:27                I remember hearing Dr. Doug Brinley speak at BYU . He said, when I got my degree, it told me that the thing, and I’m doing my best to paraphrase here, Dr. Brinley, if I get it wrong, is communication skills, but then he said, I couldn’t find communication skills in my topical guide. What I did find was faith, patience, love, forgiveness, and mercy. His talk was that communication skills without Christ-like attributes, he said, just makes us more skilled fighters.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         36:04                Yeah, that’s true.

John Bytheway:             36:05                He was saying that the Christ-like attributes, that’s what that man discovered. This is where it starts, is with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Hank, as I’ve heard you quote Matthew 26:22, the Lord, is it I? that attitude of, did I do something that hurt your feelings? I’m so sorry.

Hank Smith:                  36:25                Instead of kneeling down at your bed saying, Lord, it’s her fix her, Lord, is it I? Jason, I really love that story because it wasn’t, okay, we’re going to fix this tomorrow. This was, here’s a husband who by maybe quite a bit of no fault of his own, maybe some his fault decides that he’s going to do the work professionally and spiritually to change. Not just change like, oh, I did something wrong. It’s generations of change. I am willing to do that work. That’s an act of love.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         37:07                And it’s an ongoing act of love. It’s a choosing again and again. Part of it, it’s because he’s recognizing the importance of his children and of his family wanting to things to be different for them than what he had. As an aside, this is a couple who is choosing some boundaries with their own parents who have been quite unhealthy and still are in some ways, so that’s some of the conversations we are having in therapy is what kind of relationship is safe and healthy. For example, they sometimes say, we don’t allow our parents to just stop by anytime. We’ve limited conversation because of some of the manipulative things that are still going on. We still want our children to have a relationship with their grandparents, but we’re going to do that in a a safe way. We’re going to meet at a restaurant occasionally for an hour and have some time in a way that’s got some boundaries and got some structure to it. It’s an ongoing thing, but yes, back to your point, it’s a spiritual work. It’s not just about going and learning some communication skills, which those are great. If you have the underlying attitudes of, I want to be a better communicator. I’m going to use these to bless. It’s the virtues that are more fundamental than the skills.

Hank Smith:                  38:18                And on the other side is a spouse who is willing to walk that road.

John Bytheway:             38:24                That’s most of the battle.

Hank Smith:                  38:26                Oh, isn’t that beautiful?

John Bytheway:             38:27                A couple where they’re both saying, we want to improve our marriage.

Hank Smith:                  38:31                I will walk this road with you.

John Bytheway:             38:34                Yeah.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         38:34                Yeah. It’s hard. There’s been things said and done in the marriage up to this point sometimes that have been really hurtful and really damaging. That’s stuff that is still being talked through and worked through. That’s an ongoing process, but the attempt is being made. The forgiveness is being worked on as opposed to not being worked on. Growth is happening because of it.

John Bytheway:             38:55                The Lord requireth the heart and the willing mind. That’s it. I’m not able, but I’m willing to try and I’m going to try this. Hugely important, the intent.

Hank Smith:                  39:08                Jason, when you say how tragic that someone would say, no, I’m not willing. I’m not willing to do that work. I didn’t cause this problem. Well, you didn’t cause it, but you’re the one who has to fix it.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         39:21                And that takes a willingness and that willingness is sometimes a high price. Although as we read earlier from Elder Holland, that price in some ways has already been paid. But the willingness to let Christ pay that price and to have me not be the one to hang onto it, it’s really hard. Some people really have difficult situations. I hope from this conversation that that comes across that I recognize people really have heavy burdens to carry and some traumas and some challenges that I recognize don’t get solved from a quick effort or a prayer or a one-time forgiveness effort. This is a lifetime’s work. Certainly more hopeful to say, let’s engage in this work together with the Savior than to not and to not be willing.

Hank Smith:                  40:08                On a side note, Jason, another quick question. Not everyone has access to a Dr. Jason Whiting, a very active, faithful, latter-day saint who wants to help improve their marriages. When it comes to professional help, let’s say someone’s listening, they’re going, okay, I’m open to the fact that I might need professional help. I’m going to work with my priesthood leaders. I’m going to work with the Lord. I want to work with a professional, but I don’t want to make it worse. I’ve talked to people I’m sure you have, who have said so-and-so got burned by going to this therapist, made it worse or didn’t really fit. Do you have any advice?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         40:49                It’s a good question. There are a lot of resources out there that means there’s a whole range of resources out there. Somebody who’s living in an area where there is a variety of therapists who are LDS, for example, has a different option if they want to make that connection than somebody who lives in a place where there’s not LDS therapists. But having said all that, the connected version of the world we live in today means that there are online therapy options. That there are discussion groups, that there are books. You both have written books, people have written books. There’s blogs and resources. That is one of the advantages of the world we live in today, is that there’s a lot of discussion. Some of the research I’ve done, we’ve occasionally investigated things like online chats or discussion boards around certain topics. For example, recovery from sexual abuse or questions about intimate partner violence.

                                    41:41                We’ve looked at those discussion groups and analyzed them. They’re pretty helpful oftentimes in the sense that somebody who doesn’t have access to a therapist might be able to jump in there and say, this thing is going on for me. What do I do? People jump in with thoughts that can be really validating. It can also be problematic in some ways you have to get a range of opinions, but we do live in a time and place where there’s a lot out there. Even back to my earlier comment, it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to go to somebody who is of your same faith, for example, to work on forgiveness and to work on professional healing. There’s good people that I refer to that are not of my faith, or there are people that refer to me or that come to me who are of other faith. The long story short is that it might take a little time, but there’s a lot of things to go look at and to seek.

Hank Smith:                  42:29                Yeah, don’t give up.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         42:31                If it’s not a great fit. When you’re checking or meeting with somebody, go meet with someone else. See what happens. There’s a variety of therapists. There’s a variety of support groups. There’s a variety of resources.

Hank Smith:                  42:40                Great. Thanks for that, Jason. I’m really glad that we spent the time on this that we did. This was something that you and I had talked about. Let’s really talk about this topic because like John said earlier, it is so applicable, so relevant. Jason, can we hit a couple of these other things that you’ve prepared? We’ll come back and let’s wrap up.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         43:03                Sure. Just a couple of other things. There’s always more that we could dig into, but I’m glad that we spent the time we did on the doctrine of forgiveness, which I think is really relevant and worth the time. There’s a lot in section 64 as well as in the sections that follow. This idea that we’ve mentioned a little, which is that later in section 64, the Lord commends our efforts. He says, this is verse 33. Wherefore be not weary in well-doing for ye are laying the foundation of a great work and out of small things proceedeth that which is great. Behold, the Lord require the heart and a willing mind and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. I just like that encouragement. Don’t be weary in well doing it. We all get weary at times.

                                    43:52                We don’t want to run faster than we have strength. It’s good to try back to President Nelson’s how we treat each other really matters. Little efforts can sometimes pay off in big ways. Out of small things proceedeth that which is great, and I think again about relationships. Little things can make a big difference. I think we all can think of examples where a little thing was done for us that was really meaningful. Conversely, sometimes little things that are said or done that are negative, that are hurtful and that stay with us. You may have heard Coach Kalani Sitake’s devotional a few weeks ago where he talked about as a boy, he had struggles because of his difficult family situation where there was a divorce and moving around. He was this fourth grader that felt insecure. He was a huge BYU football fan. When he had a chance to be in the room with some of those guys at his grade school, he wasn’t even comfortable approaching them, but one of them, Vai Sikahema came over to him. This is a beautiful story and I’d encourage people to go listen. He came up to him. He said, things will be okay. I love you and the Lord loves you. That small and simple thing changed his life. It’s a big deal.

John Bytheway:             45:05                In fact, Kalani said that he gestured to him. Kalani as a little boy kind of went no. Vai left, walked over to him, said those few inspired words. I think if I didn’t even remember it later on that he had done that. Wow. Talk about a little revelation, a little intersection there that has meant so much. I loved that story. We watched it twice because we thought that was such a beautiful story. Vai Sikahema that’s now Elder Sikahema of the 70.

Hank Smith:                  45:39                Yeah. If they’re out there listening, thanks to both of you. We have had wonderful joyous moments in sporting events because of you, John, I brought this up a couple of weeks ago, but I want to make sure everybody knows about this. If you go to your gospel library app, you go to come, follow me. There’s a new section called Insights from the Apostles. These are brand new videos from the apostles about some of the Come, Follow me sections. There’s a new one by Elder Renlund called Be Not Weary in Well Doing. It’s about six minutes. It is worth your time. How wonderful that we live in a day where we can be studying the scriptures and say, oh, Elder Renlund recorded this video recently for us to look at. I hope everyone will. Again, gospel library app. Come follow me. Insights from the apostles. When I read this verse, this verse 33 is a beautiful verse.

                                    46:34                Don’t be weary and well-doing. You’re doing great things. These tiny things that I’m having you do, big things are going to come from that. It’s a great keep moving forward verse. It reminds me of Dr. Frantz Belot, who’s the mission president now out in Orlando. He’s been with us a couple of times on the show. Do you remember John, that he came home? He was Bishop, parked his car in his driveway, said, I’m just going to close my eyes for a minute. Then I think it was three in the morning where his wife, Brandy is knocking on the window. What are you doing? Are you going to come inside ? He’s just so tired. Being Bishop was a lot for him, emotionally, physically. He said something that I’ve never forgotten. It was just off the cuff. He said, I get tired in his work, but I never get tired of his work. Be not weary in well-doing. You’re doing great things. You said with Vai Sikahema. That was a very small thing. He could have said, I’m tired of doing all these little nice things, but it proceeded something great.

John Bytheway:             47:39                Last night I spoke at a fireside. I saw two, not one, two of my former mission friends out there, Elder Comstock and Elder Campbell mentioned to them, my flip chart with its picture of all 16 temples, all 16. Now what are we at guys? I mean, what time is it like 350 plus temples? Had you told me that on my mission. That’s a great work. President Nelson has said, can you see what is unfolding right in front of our eyes?

Hank Smith:                  48:15                Jason, you mentioned this just briefly, maybe I’ll put you on the spot. You said, in relationships, small things matter. Can you give me some examples of what I could be doing? Small things I could be doing that you’ve seen say, wow, that’s really effective.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         48:30                Yeah. Let me give you an example of small things in a relationship. Once I was at work and I was busy working on stuff, typing away, and I noticed that my wife texted me and the text said, do you know where the wheat grinder is? It’s kind of a funny latter-day saint question. I didn’t know where the wheat grinder was. I kept typing away and then about uh, 60 seconds later, I noticed that she’s calling. At first, I think, oh, I don’t really have time to answer the phone call. I’m busy writing a book about marital communication, but I thought, oh, of course. You know, I’ll check. Hello, how’s it going? She said, do you know where the wheat grinder is? And I said, I don’t know where the wheat grinder is. Sorry. How’s it going? What’s going on at home? What’s happening with the kids?

                                    49:19                What’s happening? You know, we talked, we connected for a few minutes. Pretty small, simple thing. It took just five minutes, maybe less. Then we were done and then I got thinking about it. Probably thinking about it because I was working on that book. I thought I could have responded in a hundred different ways. In relationships, we always can respond to each other’s stuff in different ways. In research, sometimes these are called bids. When one person does something that is a bid for the other person to respond. Sometimes it’s a text, sometimes it’s a question, sometimes it’s a concern. Sometimes it’s, you know, it’s a nice weather out today. It’s just a comment, but those are bids for connection. I thought I could have ignored, which I kind of did at first, or I could have been snippy, been rude, like, why are you bothering me?

                                    50:13                I will say, even as somebody who’s been practicing as a family therapist for pushing 30 years, it surprises me how often people and families will do that at times, be rude in a way that they would not be with their friends at church. Again. Small thing. No, it’s a big thing. It makes a big difference. I could have been sarcastic like, oh yeah, I always throw the wheat grinder in my briefcase when I go to work, or I am using it as an object lesson. Maybe I could have been humorous or something like that. I could have been kind. I hope I was kind. Maybe I could have been kinder. I hope I was at least understanding. Maybe I could have been better, but do you see what I’m saying? We’re always having these small and simple interactions and there’s actually researchers that have looked at these kinds of interactions.

                                    51:02                Just as one example, a researcher named John Gottman, who’s done a lot of marital research, followed couples right as they got together and got married, he watched what happened every time there was a bid. In other words, some little, Hey, I got promoted at work today or some little, the kids are driving me crazy. The couples who were successful six years later who were thriving responded to those bids about 90% of the time. Those were positive responses just with a, that’s great or that’s cool, or, oh, that’s interesting, and again, sometimes these were silly little things like I used to drive a car like that. Oh, that’s cool. Couples who were not doing as well, including the ones that were separating, responded positively about 32% of the time from like 88% in successful to about 32% in the couples, like you think small things, they’re small, but they add up over time. They make a big difference. We are wired for connection. We want to connect. Most of us naturally respond to each other in positive ways I hope. It makes a difference if we ignore or if we roll our eyes or if we blow off or worse or are rude. The point is the things we do in a relationship really matters like President Nelson.

Hank Smith:                  52:22                And watch for those bids. Those come from kids too. Our children, our friends.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         52:28                It’s one of the reasons we don’t like being ghosted. We don’t like when someone doesn’t respond. I tell my kids this sometimes. I’m like, it’s worth giving a thumbs up emoji on a text. Take the three seconds, don’t ignore it. Be a responder. People like to be responded to. It’s just how we’re built spiritually and emotionally and physically. We’re relational creatures.

John Bytheway:             52:47                I love it.

Hank Smith:                  52:49                There’s a couple of people I’m excited to have hear this episode, who really need this here, really need this. There’s a verse in section 66 that I think you helped us with Jason. He’s talking to William McClellan, the Lord is, and he says push many people to Zion with songs of everlasting joy upon their heads. Feel like that’s what we did today. You gave us a nice, not a hard shove, but a gentle push towards Zion in our marriages and in our relationship. I’m excited. A song of everlasting joy, right John?

John Bytheway:             53:25                Yeah. We’ve talked about this. I love the idea that Zion was a place then it was a cause. It’s a state of mind. We can even, I guess, have a Zion marriage where we’re trying to be of one heart and one mind too love it.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         53:38                Yeah. Hopefully it’s an ongoing work, but being of one heart is certainly better than the alternative. It’s possible.

Hank Smith:                  53:46                We can build Zion at home and friendships. I love it. That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway:             53:52                Did you find the wheat grinder? I’m dying.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         53:55                I think it showed up eventually. Probably one of the kids had thrown it in the bathtub or something. Who knows where that wheat grinder.

Hank Smith:                  54:04                That’s great.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         54:04                I dunno. The mystery of the wheat grinder. Yeah.

John Bytheway:             54:07                When you have kids, look where it shouldn’t be and you’ll find it.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         54:10                That’s right. The funny thing is, I use that example in my book, but the wheat grinder is such a random thing that I changed it in my book to an iPad to be a more generic example. because I’m like, who’s going to understand a wheat grinder?

John Bytheway:             54:21                Like what’s a…?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         54:22                That’s such a Latter-day Saint example. Who is this guy?

Hank Smith:                  54:25                Yeah.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         54:26                What? Who has a wheat grinder?

Hank Smith:                  54:28                Jason, before we let you go, I’ve been impressed by something I want to ask you about it. Here you are. You’ve been trained as a family therapist. You’ve researched, you’re a university professor, you’re a father and a husband, and here is this section of the Doctrine & Covenants that’s given in 1831 through a farmer that is about 2025. What do you see in these sections of the Doctrine & Covenants, is that impressive to you that you can take the years you’ve had of expertise, yet this section of the Doctrine & Covenants is impressive to someone with your background.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         55:10                It’s one of the amazing things about scripture. When we approach scripture with an open mind and with a searching heart, the things that it yields, these principles, those are eternal. I mean, they might be applying in that instance to a bunch of 20 year olds in some canoes, but they are eternal in the sense that when I read it carefully, when I think about it and we have these conversations, we can say, wow, that still really holds up. That’s one of the amazing things about scriptures. You can dismiss them and say, you know, they’re just some old writings. Sometimes people do that, but if you give it some work and you give it some time, there are deep troves of treasure in there that help us in our day to day walk and in our relationships. That’s one of the great things about scripture is we come away not just enlightened, but motivated. It’s an emotional and a spiritual and a practical thing. I love that.

Hank Smith:                  56:04                Yeah. When you think of Joseph Smith, there’s wisdom in some of these sections that no matter how smart you might be, there’s some wisdom that you don’t get until you’ve been around for a while.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         56:17                Yeah. There’s no way this, some farm guy sat down and wrote these out just for fun. That doesn’t make sense.

Hank Smith:                  56:23                And some of the little nuggets you’ve shown us today, I’m going, that’s brilliant, Jason. Wouldn’t you say it’s so universal?

Dr. Jason Whiting:         56:32                Yeah, absolutely. A good principle is always going to be applicable. It’ll be applicable in different ways in your life, whether you are 16 or 45, or whether you live in Boise or Osaka or Peru. That’s universal stuff in different ways. In different times the principles of forgiveness. I can’t think of anyone that that doesn’t apply to. I can’t imagine someone where they didn’t need this principle. I think we all need it.

Hank Smith:                  56:58                Yeah. As I was reading this with you, I thought, man, this is given by someone who understands humanity and understands the human experience. In my opinion, I can’t see a 25-year-old farmer who apparently acts like a dictator on the canoe is the one who understands the human condition the way this section does.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         57:21                Yeah, I totally agree.

John Bytheway:             57:23                I hope we get to see the video one day. I just want to see how Oliver was rowing.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         57:30                Yeah.

John Bytheway:             57:31                I hope they have a sense of humor about it now because boy, it sure gave us a gift, didn’t it?

Hank Smith:                  57:36                Yeah. He might be like, okay, let’s watch some videos of your life now. Right? like, well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, I love it. Jason, thanks for spending time with us today and offering us your expertise and your insights.

Dr. Jason Whiting:         57:50                Thanks for inviting me. It’s been really a pleasure. It’s been fun to be here.

Hank Smith:                  57:53                Yeah. We feel like it’s been a great blessing, and I think our listeners will feel the same way, right, John?

John Bytheway:             57:59                Absolutely. So blessed to be here. This discussion, I hope, will bless a lot of people.

Hank Smith:                  58:05                Wherever you’re listening from, from Payson, Utah to Osaka through Norway or Finland or down to Argentina, come on to YouTube. Let us know. It’s fun to share with our guests where people are listening from. I’ve had people say, oh, I’m only in Springville. Well, hang on. I am right around that place. So what are you talking about? Only it’s fun for us to share with our guests what you learned and where you’re from. I mentioned this before. It can be very helpful for those of you on YouTube to not just watch the videos on YouTube, but actually subscribe to the channel. We’re learning about this process, and apparently that’s better for all of us. We don’t know exactly how that works, but if you’ll go ahead and do that, if you don’t know how, if you were born in the 19 hundreds, maybe you ask one of your children or grandchildren to help you with that.

                                    58:54                With that, we want to thank Dr. Jason Whiting for being with us today. It’s been an absolute treat. I have some apologies to make right after we’re done recording here and some forgiveness to extend. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. We always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to continue in the Doctrine and Covenants on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Follow him.co. That’s Follow him.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Iride Gonzalez, and Annabelle Sorensen.