Hank Smith:                      00:00:00             Hello, followHIM family. Quick announcement. Until now, we’ve released each episode in two parts. Starting today, that changes. Every episode will come to you as one complete audio or video. Same incredible guests, same odd hosts, just easier to watch start to finish. Turns out two isn’t always better than one. Thank you for growing with us as we keep adjusting to serve you better. We love you all. Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:00:28             I’m going to bring forth a marvelous work and a wonder. I’m going to bring forth voices from the dust so that we can understand the very nature of the God we worship. So we can understand the God who restores, the God who cleanses, the God who repairs, who makes a desert bloom. That’s why I’m going to bring forth the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:54             Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host, John Bytheway, who trusts in Zion.

John Bytheway:               00:01:04             I’m thankful for that because I thought you were going to call me an abominable branch or the golden wedge of Ophir. I like that one. I’d like to be a golden wedge of Ophir, and hopefully we’ll figure out what that means today.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:16             I had a lot to choose from, but I liked this one. The Lord hath founded Zion, this is Isaiah 14:32, and his people shall trust in it.

John Bytheway:               00:01:26             Love it.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:27             John, we are privileged today to have with us Sister Kathryn Davis. This is her first time on followHIM. Kathryn, welcome.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:01:34             Thank you. I’m honored to be here.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:36             I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time. Kathryn comes highly recommended by quite a few of my friends. John, we spent last week with Dr. Jeff Chadwick looking at the first few chapters of Isaiah. Tell me what you’re thinking about as we’re going into the second lesson on Isaiah.

John Bytheway:               00:01:53             The first thing I thought of was that Isaiah wasn’t just a prophet to Israel and to Judah, but he starts out by talking to Babylon. I though that was interesting. It reminded me of the Proclamation to the World on the Family, that he’s a prophet to the whole world. And boy, there’s some tough words here in some of these chapters. So I’m excited to hear what Kathryn has to say about this.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:17             Yeah, this is the repent or die –

John Bytheway:               00:02:20             Ooh wow.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:21             – sections of Isaiah. Kathryn, what are we looking forward to today? What are we going to do?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:02:26             I think you said it right. These sections can feel a little daunting and a little heavy. I think Isaiah can be a little intimidating. There’s destruction, there’s Babylon, there’s judgment, there’s scattering, captivity. The language can sometimes feel really difficult to understand. But the more I study Isaiah, the more convinced I am that Isaiah is really trying to teach us and show us who Jesus Christ is and help us see him to learn to look past the destruction, look past the fear and see the deliverer, to look past the scattering and see the gatherer, to look past the desert and see the one who makes it bloom, to look past the death and see the resurrected Jesus. I really want to focus on ideas that I think run throughout all of these chapters to focus on what I really think Isaiah is trying to teach us and to teach us to trust God, to trust him as the restorer.

                                           00:03:25             Because the day of the Lord, and we’re going to see that phrase throughout Isaiah, the day of the Lord. It’s simply a day of destruction, but it’s so much more than that. It’s the day when Jesus Christ comes to make things right. It’s the great reversal. We’re going to see this throughout Isaiah, the great reversal, the proud are brought low, the captive is freed, the scattered are gathered, and the dead rise. Tears are wiped away and ultimately the desert blooms. Isn’t that like the most beautiful symbol right there, the desert blooms? It becomes incredibly personal because many of us have our own Babylons. We have our own deserts. We have our own seasons of waiting and our own moments of wandering and wondering where God is and even asking like, God, are you there? Isaiah teaches us in those desert moments in the wilderness that God is always there and to try and trust in what God is doing.

                                           00:04:24             Sometimes the answer is to learn who God is, and Isaiah will teach us who God is. And the more I understand Jesus Christ, the more I know I can trust him. We can see him as the restorer, see him as the sure foundation, see him as the one who gathers us one by one, see him as the one who waits to be gracious, and ultimately see him as the one who can make the desert bloom. Because maybe the message Isaiah has for us isn’t life will never be hard. Maybe it’s something much more helpful. Maybe it’s the story isn’t finished yet. And can you trust the one who’s writing it?

Hank Smith:                      00:05:01             President Benson said, “You won’t desire the Atonement until you truly understand the Fall.” We’ll appreciate a Savior more when we see the destruction that we’re saved from. Understanding this destruction and this darkness that Isaiah talks about is going to create in us a desire or a need for someone to save us from that. There’s something, I guess, important about seeing the difficulty for what it is. How do you see the desert blossom if you don’t see the desert? John, like I said, Kathryn hasn’t been with us before, so who is she? Where did we find her? Did we grab her off the street? Who is this woman?

John Bytheway:               00:05:43             No, you grabbed me off the street. Kathryn Daines Davis. She’s a full-time institute teacher at Utah Valley University. She’s an author, writer, speaker, podcaster. She’s a lover of people, a seeker of Jesus. She’s passionate about helping others recognize God’s hand in their lives, see the Savior in the scriptures, and to feel his personal and abiding love more deeply. Kathryn served a mission in Hamburg, Germany. She met her husband, Steve, at EFY when they were counselors. She’s had a passion for working with youth ever since. She began teaching seminary in 2020, became a full-time institute teacher at Utah Valley, as we said. We’re just so glad to have you here with all that experience and all that energy that you’re already bringing, so thank you for being with us.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:06:32             Thank you for having me. I remember when I was a BYU student, I did a semester abroad at the BYU Jerusalem Center and I took an Isaiah class, writings of Isaiah from Ann Madsen, Truman Madsen’s wife, who is brilliant. I remember sitting there thinking one day I want to know the scriptures like she does. One day I want to be able to teach like she does. This is kind of a interesting moment for me, but what an incredible example of a woman who knew the doctrine and knew her scriptures.

Hank Smith:                      00:07:08             Let’s jump into the Come, Follow Me manual. And Kathryn, John and I are ready to learn from you. The lesson this week is called A Marvelous Work and a Wonder. We have a lot of chapters here, Isaiah 13 to 35. One thing that the Lord asks prophets to do is to warn us about the consequences of sin. For Old Testament prophets, this often meant telling the rulers of mighty kingdoms that they needed to repent. It was a dangerous task, but Isaiah was fearless and his warnings to the kingdoms of his day, including Israel, Judah, and surrounding nations were bold. However, Isaiah also had a message of hope. Even though the prophesied destructions did come upon these kingdoms, Isaiah foresaw a chance for restoration and renewal. The Lord would invite his people to return to him. He would make the parched ground become a pool and the thirsty land springs of water.

                                           00:08:00             He would perform a marvelous work and a wonder, restoring Israel the blessings he had promised them. Neither Isaiah nor anyone else alive at the time lived to see the marvelous work, but we are seeing it today. In fact, we are part of it. Wow. All right, Kathryn, let’s turn it over to you.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:08:18             I remember a couple semesters ago we were studying the life and the names and the titles of Jesus Christ. I asked my students, “If you could describe the Savior in one word, what word would you use?” And I had one student who said restorer. And I said, “Wait, wait, tell me more. Why restore?” She talked about to restore, same with like advocate, to restore maybe past mistakes, to restore unfulfilled promises, to restore unfulfilled dreams and to restore all that was or could possibly could be lost or wrong in this world. I actually love that title, Restorer. That’s maybe why I love these sections of Isaiah, because we can focus a lot on the consequences and the scattering, but let’s not miss the restorer, who he restores and how often he restores and how much he tries and goes to great lengths to restore not only his people.

                                           00:09:18             John, you said that in the intro, which I love, but the whole world. He’s trying to restore all of his children. I was in a class a couple of weeks ago and the presenter did this, which I thought was so powerful. So go to your Gospel Library app. When you hit General Conference, at the top it has conferences, speakers, topics, hit speaker, and then scroll down to Elder Bednar. And once you hit Elder Bednar, you’re going to see a list of his talks. Pick any talk that you want that stands out to you. Once you pick that talk, in the top right corner, there are three dots. Hit the three dots and go to find on page. And it’s going to bring up a little magnifying glass. Type into that magnifying glass, pray. Tell me what comes up.

John Bytheway:               00:10:15             I pray for the assistance of the Holy Ghost as we now consider relevant lessons for us today from the Book of Helaman and the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith:                      00:10:22             Mine is, I pray for and invite the assistance of the Holy Ghost as I now speak with you.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:10:27             I earnestly pray for the help of the Holy Ghost as I now express my love, admiration, and gratitude for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Before we even begin, can we pattern our podcast and our discipleship after what Elder Bednar does here? Every time he speaks, every time he teaches, he prays that the Holy Ghost will be with us. Wherever you are and wherever you’re listening to this and whatever is on your heart, whatever God wants to say to you, can we pray that the Holy Ghost will direct this conversation, will direct your thoughts, direct our ability to speak to his desires and his wishes? That’s even important as a learner and as a listener. How many times do we go into a class or do we sit in sacrament meeting and listen to somebody speak and are we praying for them?

                                           00:11:27             Are we praying for them to be guided by the Holy Ghost and are we praying for us to be listeners, to be directed by the Holy Ghost? I don’t know about you guys, but this is kind of a lesson for me because sometimes in the past, I have been known to sit in a sacrament meeting or a lesson and think, oh, I’m so bored or I have all these other things to do. I remember we were at a family reunion a number of years ago and my whole family, we go to Lake Tahoe every summer. We were in Lake Tahoe and it was a sacrament meeting and I was thinking, “This is really boring.” And at the end of the sacrament meeting, we all go out into the foyer and I go up to my brother-in-law and at the same time we said, “Wasn’t that?” And I said, “Boring.” And he said, “Wonderful.” And I stopped and thought, “What?”

                                           00:12:18             Like, why was that wonderful? And honestly, I honestly asked him, “What was so wonderful about that?” And he told me all of these things he had learned, and in that moment, I realized the problem was me. I wasn’t being led or learning by the Spirit. Can we have a prayer in our hearts that we will be led by the Spirit of the Lord?

Hank Smith:                      00:12:41             This reminds me of Nephi, 2 Nephi 25, talking about Isaiah. He says, “I know this is difficult to understand. The words of Isaiah are not plain unto you.” Then he says, “They can be plain. Unto those that are filled with the Spirit,” that seems to be a critical component.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:13:04             Absolutely. I have often contemplated why did Jesus command us to study Isaiah, especially as we’re in these sections. Why did he study? And I know there are a number of reasons. What if one of the reasons why he asked us to study Isaiah, and in particular these chapters, is because he hopes we slow down a little, slow down reading, slow down in life, because if somebody can read these chapters, I think they can understand all of scripture. These are some of the hardest. There’s dense Hebrew poetry, there’s play on words, there’s inside jokes, there’s hyperlinks to previous prophets. You have to know history, you have to know geography, you have to know kingship, you have to know succession and agriculture references. Like you kind of have to know it all. If there’s anything we need in today’s world, I think it’s slowing down. Might be stillness.

                                           00:14:02             Elder Bednar gives a beautiful talk about the stillness found in the temple to slow down our study, to slow down our lives, to slow down our thoughts. His metaphors will remind us of relationships we have daily. We might see God in Isaiah’s words in our backyards, like in chapter one verse eight and putting on kids’ band-aids or on our morning run or even climbing into bed. If we put effort into studying and understanding Isaiah’s words, even when they are all about judgments or the Assyrian army, if we can slow down and ponder, that is when the desert will bloom. That is when we will see the Restorer. And if I actually try and slow down and understand what he’s saying, his words are on my mind a lot more, even more than I want them to, especially these past few weeks, my morning run, doing the dishes, like Isaiah’s words have been on my mind and in my heart.

                                           00:15:00             That is what brings forth fruit. Are you in the word? Are you understanding the scriptures? Are we teaching our youth how to study and how to read? I know you guys probably saw that new study that came out, that Gen Z is the first generation in modern history to perform worse in literacy and cognitive skills than the generation before them. I think we need to teach our youth how to read, how to get into the verse, and is there a better way to do that than Isaiah?

Hank Smith:                      00:15:38             I love it.

John Bytheway:               00:15:40             Joseph Fielding McConkie just changed my life one day when he said, “We read scriptures too fast.” You could spend an hour on a verse if you slow down. We had somebody on here, Hank, that talked about water skiing across the top of scripture or scuba diving a little bit or snorkeling or deep diving.

Hank Smith:                      00:16:05             This is a good time, John, to make sure our audience knows about a series we’ve done this year called Thoughts to Keep in Mind. They’re extra episodes. We’ve done eight. We just finished our eighth and final one. If you go back a couple of episodes just before Dr. Jeff Chadwick, you can look that up. We’re with Dr. Ross Baron. He does what Kathryn does here. He says, Slow down. Let me show you some things that you all of a sudden go, oh wow, I understood that because I wasn’t flying through it. I stopped and looked up a word or went and looked up a little bit of the background that Kathryn talked about, a little bit of the agriculture. John, you know the Elder Maxwell quote. He said the scriptures are a mansion and we rush through the rooms and don’t get warmed by the fireplaces.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:16:53             I really wonder if that is part of the reason why Jesus has asked us to study Isaiah. You can’t study Isaiah without slowing down, and you have to experience that stillness. And in today’s world, and even when Elder Bednar talked about the importance of the stillness in the temple, sometimes we talk about going to the temple as like a checkbox item. I’m going to the temple. I’m going to the temple. That’s not the point of the temple. The point of the temple is to get the temple inside of us, to become the temple. You can’t do that unless you’re slowing down, unless there is some stillness. A couple of weeks ago, I went to the wedding of a nephew and Elder Rob Daines performed the sealing, Rob’s my brother. As he was talking about the sealing, he said something that I have not stopped thinking about.

                                           00:17:47             And he talked about the covenants and how it’s about the biography of Jesus Christ. The temple is to become like him, the biography of Jesus Christ, to understand, to partake of that biography. Those are the covenants of the temple. So the point of the temple is not to go to the temple, it’s to take upon us the biography of Jesus. The point of Isaiah is not to know all of these facts, it’s to become like Jesus, to see the Restorer.

Hank Smith:                      00:18:18             It’s not about time. It’s not about efficiency. I have to tell you both, with the appointments now to go do baptisms, it’s a pretty efficient system. I was talking to one of the workers and I said, Do you both remember this? There would be so many youth in the temple that you would sit there. You could see the person up being baptized. You were a long ways away. Everyone would slide down one spot and everyone would slide down one spot. And I actually miss that because I had nothing to do. I had no phone. Occasionally, you had a set of scriptures in front of you, but just sitting there was good for my little 14-year-old soul. Sitting there watching my friends get baptized, it forces you to sit and think, and I want that for my boys. I almost want, let’s fill up that chapel again, that little chapel outside the baptistry. It’s not about being efficient. Let’s just sit here for a while.

John Bytheway:               00:19:19             Beautiful.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:19:21             As we really dig into these sections, maybe a great place to start is Isaiah 12, because Isaiah 12 is a song. It’s a song of praise. We’re also going to see this song in 25 as well. Isaiah opens this up with the song of praise because he’s seen the Restorer. And then in 13, through a lot of other chapters, he’s going to talk about some of the destruction. He wants us to know what’s coming before we focus on the destruction. In verse 12, the song of praise. In that day, we’re going to see that a lot, meaning the day of the Lord. He’s going to use that phrase, especially in chapters 13, 14, 15, and 16, in that day. “O, Lord, I will praise thee, though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away and thou comfortest me. Behold, God is my salvation. I will trust and not be afraid.

                                           00:20:14             For the Lord, Jehovah is my strength and my song. He also has become my salvation.” As we kind of see this millennial song of praise, and it’s a chance for Isaiah to praise the name of who will come to sing unto the Lord, to give these praises because he knows in whom he has trusted. This to me is actually Isaiah as a prophet of hope. He’s going to see death, but he sees resurrection. He’s going to see the desert, but he’s going to see it blooming. That’s what he sings before he gets into Babylon and the day of the Lord. That is where we get into Isaiah chapter 13, verse one, The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. The burden of Babylon, obviously, Isaiah is speaking of Babylon as a historical place. It’s a real kingdom. Through scripture, Babylon becomes symbolic of something else.

                                           00:21:14             It’s something bigger, pride, corruption, wickedness, worldly power, and opposition to God. I think this phrase right here, the burden of Babylon, the burden of wickedness, the burden of pride, that it’s this literal Babylon, but also symbolically what that represents. And how often could we describe wickedness or pride as a burden that it just feels so heavy what we’re carrying?

John Bytheway:               00:21:43             Yeah, Kathryn, Babylon is a physical place, but it becomes a symbol, as you said. When you were talking, I thought, yeah, it’s the great and spacious building. It’s the pride of the world. It’s the wisdom of the world. The song came into my mind, “O Babylon, O Babylon, we bid thee farewell.” We have to do that a lot in Isaiah. This is a physical place, but it becomes a symbol for something else. Kind of like Zion, wouldn’t you say, Hank? Zion is a physical place, but it’s also more than that.

Hank Smith:                      00:22:13             Yeah. Well, if you think apocalyptic literature, those are your stark choices, Babylon or Zion. You get to choose one or the other.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:22:22             Well, and we even see that in the Doctrine and Covenants, like Doctrine and Covenants Section 133, “Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness,” which is spiritual Babylon. We’re going to see this metaphor throughout scripture. Babylon, Isaiah is talking about a physical place, but again, with all things Isaiah, let’s also expand this metaphor and understand that he’s talking about spiritual wickedness and just the burden.

Hank Smith:                      00:22:50             Babylon is this kingdom, this worldly kingdom that wants Israel. It’s going to take Israel, very similar to our lives today. Babylon is this wickedness that wants to take the people of Israel today.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:23:07             He talks about this burden of Israel, and then in verse three, “I have commanded my sanctified ones. I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.” We’re going to see a lot of words here, like wrath and anger and destruction. I’m sure, as you guys have taught, that is one thing I get asked a lot about is I see the anger of God in the Old Testament and the merciful God in the New Testament, and I don’t see how those relate. And I also think, well, maybe we’re not reading them all to understand. There’s some beautiful insights that Elder Christofferson has given at conference and Elder Renlund, where Elder Christofferson has said, “Wrath may be understood as the natural consequences of widespread disobedience to the laws and commandments of God.” When we see God’s anger and God’s wrath, God is saying, “I’m going to allow the natural consequences to happen.” And Elder Renlund said, “Getting off the path is referred to as sin, and the resultant decrease in happiness and forfeited blessings is called punishment. In this sense, God is not punishing us. Punishment is a consequence of our own choices, not his.” I love that.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:22             That’s a crucial step in understanding the Old Testament. When you see the anger of God coming against His people, think to yourself, “These are the natural consequences of sin.”

John Bytheway:               00:24:33             Some will only learn by the things which they suffer. But look what the bottom line is. They are learning. We are learning. When I choose my way, it just doesn’t go that well. When I choose the Lord’s way, it goes better. The idea of the natural consequences of saying, “I don’t want to choose that anymore because the natural consequences are a burden.” I like how you put that.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:57             I remember being brand new to scripture and reading, particularly in the Doctrine and Covenants, that the Lord says, “I will curse them up to three to four generations.” And I thought, that’s not fair. This person makes a choice, then three to four generations of people have to be punished for that. Kathryn, it hit me like what you just said. Oh, wait. It’s not the Lord punishing them, it’s the natural consequence. It’s going to take three to four generations of people to break away from the choice you made. It’s going to affect your children and your grandchildren before somebody says, “I want to change this.” So it wasn’t the Lord saying, “I’m going to curse you.” It was your choices. That choice is going to curse you for three to four generations.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:25:40             We’re going to see throughout here that he cries because of that. He mourns.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:45             Oh, natural consequences are the best teachers. As a parent, I want to stop those. I’ll tell you, there’s sometimes I think, “Oh, I don’t want this to play out. I’ve seen this movie. I know how it ends.” So you can almost feel the Lord saying, “I don’t want this, but I do know the wisdom that comes from it.”

John Bytheway:               00:26:07             Can I show you both something? I used to keep it on the desk when I was a bishop, but it just happens to be right here. My dad used to quote, I think he was a pastor, Henry Emerson Fosdick, who said, “Oh my soul, look to the road you are traveling on. He who chooses the path, chooses the place it leads to. He who picks up one end of the stick picks up the other.” I actually made this to see if it was true, so I have testing insignia on here like a, like a crash dummy. If you’re watching, I’ll rotate it. It says one end the other, but if I rotate it, it says choice and consequence.

                                           00:26:46             When we read Korihor, when a man is dead, that’s the end thereof, no consequence. And whatsoever a man did was no crime. That’s Korihor sign to say, uh-uh, there’s no consequence. You could do whatever you want. The Lord’s trying to say, what are the natural consequences? If you pick up one end, you pick up the other. When my dad said that, I thought he was talking about yard work, but it took me a while to learn no, choice has a consequence.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:27:13             Even as we’ve been studying the Old Testament, they’re like, “We want a king. We want this.” Okay, this is what you want. I know what’s going to happen. My tendency would be like, “Okay, then deal with the consequences.” And God allows that, but then he’s still there. And then he’s still like, “Oh, then let me give you another righteous king, or let me help you through this, even though this is what you wanted.” We’re going to see this day of the Lord in verse six, “The day of the Lord is at hand.” In verse nine, “Behold, the day of the Lord cometh cruel, both with wrath and fierce anger to lay the land desolate, and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.” Let’s also remember not only natural consequences, but the day of the Lord of who’s coming, and we want a God who’s passionate.

                                           00:28:02             We want a God who will set things right, that he is going to destroy oppression, and he will destroy pride, and he will destroy wickedness, and he will make all things fair. He’s going to destroy everything that will keep his children from him. I love that thought. The day of the Lord is He is going to destroy everything that keeps me from Him, from feeling His love, from keeping my children from Him. He is going to make things right, not punish his people.

John Bytheway:               00:28:36             If I have personal problems that they could be like my Assyrians, or they could be like my Babylonians, if I bind myself to the Lord, which I’m given the opportunity to do every Sunday, He’s going to help me conquer those Babylonians and Assyrians I have in my own life. We want a God that’s powerful to say, “I’m going to help you destroy the Assyrians that are after you.”

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:29:01             Don’t we want a God who can smite depression and smite anxiety?

John Bytheway:               00:29:05             Bad habits, addictions. We want that God that is so powerful he can help us with that.

Hank Smith:                      00:29:11             Elder Holland, 2011, he says, “We speak boldly to you because anything more subtle doesn’t seem to work. We speak boldly because Satan is a real being set on destroying you, and you face his influence at a younger and younger age, so we grab you by the lapels and shout as forcefully as we know how. Hark, the sound of battle, sounding loudly and clear. Come join the ranks.” I like it. Anything more subtle doesn’t seem to work.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:29:42             Don’t you feel like that sometimes?

John Bytheway:               00:29:45             Yeah. Isaiah as well, Babylon.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:29:48             Yeah, he’s like, “I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.”

Hank Smith:                      00:29:55             That’s bold.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:29:57             It’s very interesting how everything comes back to pride. President Benson thought so, that everything is the pride, and that is the great sin. And sometimes sin is pride in trusting ourselves, not in trusting God. It’s either we trust ourselves too much that we know the better way, or pride in not trusting God enough that he can forgive us and not knowing and understanding who he is. Every sin comes down to pride. Every sin comes down to who we love or what we love more in that moment. If it’s not God, then it’s because of pride that we’re choosing something else.

Hank Smith:                      00:30:44             I want to hit it again. I think it’s crucial. As a parent reading with your children this week or as a seminary teacher reading with youth this week, keep coming back to the idea of natural consequences. When the Lord says their children shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes, he’s not saying, “I’m doing this.” He’s being bold about, “This is the consequence.” You don’t want this.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:31:08             Also reading this as a parent, can we also understand that he will also be there to restore and pick up the pieces? That’s who God is. And I just know as a parent especially, there have been times where I have laid awake at night and I have worried about some of my kids’ choices. I love that thought by Sister Runia where she says, “Worry may feel like love, but it’s not love.” Some of us feel like we’re really good moms or dads because we worry a lot. There was one particular child that I was worrying a lot about. I remember not sleeping. And why is it that worries always hit like two or three in the morning? It’s always in the middle of the night. I was just up really worried and I felt so clearly the Spirit say to me, “Kathryn, I’m not worried about him. Why are you?”

                                           00:32:07             God’s not worried about my son. God’s not worried about my children. He’s got them. This is his plan. He is the Restorer. So can I also trust in his arm of mercy? Can I also trust that natural consequences will lead my children to him? Because that’s what it’s about, helping everything learn about the Savior. I know you guys have had missionaries too, and I am on my fourth missionary who’s currently serving in Oaxaca, and I served a mission and my husband served a mission. And at first, especially with my first daughter, a lot of the things that she would write or tell home about, I would really think, “Oh, what can I do to help?” and worry about them. And now with my fourth, whether it’s a hard companion or this is happening, I think, wow, look at what this is going to teach him.

                                           00:33:01             Look at how he’s going to learn and grow and who he’s going to become because of this hardship. Not that my heart doesn’t hurt for them because of course it does, but I also have a little bit of a bigger picture of what it’s going to teach them. And this is God’s plan. And God’s plan, my work and my glory is to bring to past the eternal life and immortality of men. He’s good at his job. Let’s trust in the hands of the Restorer and know that if it’s our children who are experiencing natural consequences, that God is allowing that because it’s going to help teach them about Him.

Hank Smith:                      00:33:41             It’s a hard lesson, but it’s an important crucial one. What do you want to do next, Kathryn?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:33:45             Let’s get into Isaiah 14, because Isaiah 13 is about the destruction. It’s the destruction chapter. Isaiah 14, even in the chapter heading, “Israel will be gathered and enjoy millennial rest.” We’re going to see this idea of Israel must be gathered and restored. And how can we understand the restoration if we don’t understand the apostasy and the scattering? How can we gather if we don’t understand the scattering?

Hank Smith:                      00:34:15             As you read this week, you’re going to run into some phrases that Kathryn talked about them being pretty unique to Isaiah, his time, geography, even agriculture. For example, in Isaiah 13:12, it says, “I will make a man more precious than fine gold, even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” You think to yourself, “I have no idea what he’s talking about.” There’s a lot of resources out there, study Bibles. I like the website BibleHub because I can bring up Isaiah 13:12. I can see all the different ways that’s been translated. For example, there’s a contemporary English version that is pretty simple reading level, which I need. It says, “Survivors will be harder to find than pure gold.” If you scroll down even further, it gives you some commentaries, very faithful Catholic, Protestant commentaries explaining what the gold of Ophir is. Just take a second to stop, use one of these resources, look it up, and it becomes clearer.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:35:20             I think this is also, Hank, a perfect example of God will speak your language. This is Isaiah’s world. This is his language. God is going to speak differently to you than he will to me. God speaks all languages. I have definitely seen him speak football and basketball to my son. He’ll speak music or swimming. So to understand that God is going to speak your language, yours is probably different than Isaiah’s. Instead of getting frustrated and saying, “I’ll never understand it,” and throw your hands up, go to Bible Hub, go to resources that help you understand Isaiah’s world, then let it reassure you that God will speak to Isaiah and he’ll speak to me.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:04             Once you understand Isaiah’s world, it’s fun to be able to restate those verses the way you would say them. Another resource that I have, because the title fit me perfectly, was Isaiah for Airheads by my friend John Bytheway. Here is his commentary on that verse. It’s from 2 Nephi 23:12 or Isaiah 13:12. John, you wrote, “Precious in this context means rare or scarce. Many people will be destroyed in the events preceding Jesus’ Second Coming, such that men will be few and far between as rare as the golden wedge of Ophir, a place renowned for the purity of its gold.” Good job, John. Isaiah for Airheads.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:36:44             Beautiful. I think this is a really fun practice. As we talk about understanding scripture and helping our kids and our youth understand scripture, it’s actually fun to take a verse and then rewrite it in your language and in their language. I think that helps the practice of understanding scripture. Like put it in your own words. Take that verse and then how would God say that to you today?

John Bytheway:               00:37:10             I love it. Have you ever been to Five Guys and you get Cajun fries and it’s overflowing in the bottom of the sack and we say, “Oh, bonus fries.” You ever use that phrase? You have bonus fries that don’t fit? This is what I think about these Isaiah chapters. I not only have the footnotes in 2 Nephi, but I have the footnotes in Isaiah 13 and they’re not the same. We have bonus footnotes here. When you were saying lift ye up a banner upon the mountain, I was like, oh, that banner. I looked at 2 Nephi 23 footnote. It says, “Wave the hand, give a signal.” When I looked at Isaiah 13, it said, “It is an Ensign, the banner upon the mountain, like an Ensign to the nations,” which is a phrase Isaiah uses in chapter 12. I love that we’ve got double footnotes when we go through Isaiah to help us understand it.

Hank Smith:                      00:38:03             Yeah. And doing that kind of work is an investment, but the return is worth it. It’s worth the investment. Kathryn, what should we do next?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:38:10             Okay, let’s go to chapter 14, especially as we’ve hit the last couple of chapters. And chapter 13 definitely talks about some of the destruction that is ahead, and then chapter 14 is going to focus on the restorer and the repairer of that destruction. Like we’ve said before, you can’t understand the repairer unless you know what’s been destroyed. You can’t understand the gathering unless you know about the scattering. And I think sometimes we talk about, especially with our youth, the gathering of Israel, and if you really ask them what that means, they’re like, oooh. I’m not quite sure, because they’re not necessarily understanding what the scattering was or how that occurred.

Hank Smith:                      00:38:56             It’s really hard to appreciate the gathering if you don’t know the why, the how, the when of the scattering.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:39:04             Yeah. Chapter 13 is Babylon falls, the world is shaken, the day of the Lord comes. And then chapter 14 begins, “For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob and will yet choose Israel and set them in their own land, and the stranger shall be joined with them and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.” After destruction comes mercy. After scattering comes gathering, and after things have been broken comes restoration. This is one of my favorite ways of thinking about Jesus Christ, as the restorer and as the repairer. With that verse, I actually kept thinking of Elder Gilbert’s talk from our most recent General Conference where he specifically taught about Jesus Christ as the Redeemer and as the Repairer. He pointed to Isaiah 58, verse 12, where the Lord says, “Thou shalt be called the repairer of the breach, the restorer of paths to dwell in.”

John Bytheway:               00:40:09             Of the breach.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:40:11             Yeah. Don’t you love that? The repairer of the breach. And then Elder Gilbert testifies, “I witness that Christ is our Redeemer. When we fall short, he repairs the breaches in our lives.” I love the difference between those words. A restorer brings something back and a repairer fixes what has been broken. And in chapter 14, we’re going to see the repair and the restore. He will repair what has been broken. Jesus does both. He will restore covenants. He restores Israel. He restores truth. He restores what sin has taken. He restores what death has taken through repentance, and he’ll also restore the breaches in our lives. For me personally, some of the breaches in my life is trust in the God who will restore those and repair those, even if I don’t see it, that he can repair what has been broken. He can repair what has been broken with my children, with my grandchildren, with friends, with neighbors, with all, because we are his children.

                                           00:41:17             Where we’ve fallen short, where we’re wounded, where we make mistakes, he can repair and restore. Verse two, “And the people shall take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the Lord for servants and handmaids, and they shall take them captives whose captives they were, and they shall rule over their oppressors.” Again, we’re going to see this reversal. If you took captives, you’re now going to be captive. If you oppress people, you will now be oppressed. The day of the Lord is all about this great deliverance and this great reversal. Those who were bond shall now be free. Those who were made to serve shall now be made free, wherein thou wast made to serve in the bondage, like a rest from thy sorrow.

Hank Smith:                      00:42:07             Doesn’t he write a little letter to the King of Babylon? Next, Kathryn, he says, hey, by the way, the day that Babylon is falling, go hand him this little note. It’s almost like the King of Babylon is watching Babylon fall and then someone runs up, hey, this letter’s for you. Who’s it from? Isaiah. He lived a couple hundred years ago. He wanted you to have this.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:42:32             There are consequences. God is going to allow those consequences to happen. Understanding here that Isaiah, when he refers, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning,” he is referring to the king of Babylon. That is who Isaiah is referring to. “How art thou cut down to the ground which didst weaken the nations.” Lucifer here is a representation of the king of Babylon, but we can extend that to be a symbol of Lucifer, Satan.

Hank Smith:                      00:43:05             Let me make sure I understand. So let’s talk Isaiah’s day. There’s a kingdom of Israel, two kingdoms really, the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and he is basically preaching to both, saying these two major countries, Assyria and Babylon, are going to come against you. If you don’t turn to God, you’re going to lose to them. That ends up happening, but both of those kingdoms end up being destroyed, Assyria and Babylon. That can be symbolic of Satan and his kingdom and us. The prophets say to us, you’ve got to make better choices or Babylon, the wickedness of the world will overtake you. But just so you know, the wickedness of the world will fall. The King of Babylon is a symbol of the king of wickedness. John, how did I do?

John Bytheway:               00:43:59             This is so Isaiah to all of a sudden start talking about an event in the premortal existence in the middle of the burden of Babylon. Here we go. Bonus Fries footnotes. Look at footnote in 2 Nephi chapter 23, footnote 12A. The fallen king of Babylon is typified by the fallen son of the morning, Lucifer in verses 12 through 15. You see what Isaiah is doing. He’s saying it’s an echo from the premortal existence that’s teaching the same thing that the king of Babylon that thinks I will do all of this, here’s an echo from the premortal existence. That’s another reason to slow down.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:44:43             This is what Nephi is saying is to liken all scripture. He’s likening, O Lucifer as in the son of the morning in the preexistence, but Isaiah is specifically talking about Lucifer, the king of Babylon.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:57             Historically, when the Northern Kingdom of Israel falls to Assyria, and then you have the Southern Kingdom falling to Babylon, that’s Lehi’s time, and then Babylon later falls, when does that –

John Bytheway:               00:45:08             To Persia, right?

Hank Smith:                      00:45:09             Yeah. Is that king, is that King Cyrus? We’ve talked about a little bit with, like, Esther and things like that, the Persians. John, am I right there?

John Bytheway:               00:45:17             Yeah. And I listened to a talk at Ensign College by Hank Smith that kind of went through the whole. Since we’re doing this mutual admiration society thing here that did the whole history of the house of Israel that way. Assyria was an enemy, then Babylon was an enemy, then Persia was an enemy, then King Cyrus let them come back. But through it all, who is always there that Kathryn is teaching us? The Lord never says, I’m done with you, people. I have told you, you’re not learning from your consequences. I am so done, but he still stays with us.

Hank Smith:                      00:45:52             Yeah. Babylon doesn’t win, the end. Don’t worry, I’m coming back.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:45:57             One of the reasons why Jerusalem is spared for so much longer, I think they had something like 12 kings and two of them were righteous. Where the other kingdom have no righteous kings, here we have Jerusalem who is also trying to look to other places to save them, and we’re going to see that throughout. Like they keep saying, “Oh, Egypt, will you save us?” They’re trying to make alliances even up until this last minute, which we’ll kind of get into in some of the next chapters. They try and, like, make these alliances of more powerful people that they think can help them and can save them. In the end, they’re not looking to the one who will.

Hank Smith:                      00:46:35             I love it. In this history, Kathryn, you’re showing us these powerful life lessons. That’s my favorite part of scripture is I’m learning the history, I’m learning the context, and then all of a sudden it hits me. Whoa, that’s for me.

John Bytheway:               00:46:47             That’s an application.

Hank Smith:                      00:46:49             Yeah. Why do you keep looking to Instagram for answers? What are you doing?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:46:56             Here is Isaiah. And again, he’s pointing to these, whose team are you going to choose? You’re trying to go to the Egyptians, to the Moabites, to look all outside of yourself, because you think they will save you. Whose team? I am the one who will save.

Hank Smith:                      00:47:12             Kathryn, let me ask you, if someone’s listening and they think, well, I want to wear the right team’s jersey, but I don’t know how, what would you say? I don’t think it’s as difficult as we sometimes make it seem like, oh, I don’t know how to get on this Savior’s team.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:47:26             I think you’re right. I think we over-complicate it. We just choose Him. Faith is his choice. I am so blessed to be surrounded by incredible young adults who every day choose him. We wake up and we choose him. We choose God. We choose the Savior, and it doesn’t have to be so hard, and it doesn’t have to be so complicated, and we’re going to make mistakes, and we’re going to mess up. Again, I’m going to choose him when I do. In fact, it just reminds me of this experience that my son had shortly after his mission. I have two girls and two boys, and I currently have a son serving in Pachuca, Mexico. I had another son who served in Oaxaca, Mexico right after his mission, and we all know coming home from a mission can be hard. It’s hard to figure out how do I live, how do I choose every day?

                                           00:48:23             How do I choose the Lord’s team when on my mission it was so dictated every moment what I should do? And he came home from his mission and was just feeling a little lost, and we went to conference. Elder Kearon gave this incredible talk about how the church is a church of fresh starts and new beginnings. After conference was over, we were sitting, talking to some family and some friends, and Elder Kearon came to speak with some family, and my son’s like, “I want to go talk to him.” And I’m like, “Okay, go talk to him.” And my son walked up and shook his hand, and Elder Kearon gave him this hug, and my big son, who’s 6’5″ and 240 pounds, just started weeping. Elder Kearon talked to him and said, “Josh, what’s on your heart?” Then he said, “Josh, it doesn’t have to be so hard. The gospel of Jesus Christ is simple. Did you hear what I said? A church of fresh starts and new beginnings, the gospel of Jesus Christ is simple. Choose him. The gospel is simple.” We’re going to mess up. We’re going to make mistakes. Choose him. Look to him.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:42             That’s wonderful. To someone listening, it can be as simple as pausing the show right now, go somewhere private, kneel down, and say, “I choose you. Help me choose you.”

John Bytheway:               00:49:55             And like you said, Kathryn, you’ll mess up again. We all will. Keep choosing him every day. That’s part of the plan, is that there’s hope, there’s repentance, just choose him again. Repent relentlessly.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:50:07             Yeah. Reminds me of another battle that we read so much about. In Alma chapter 57, we have the 2,000 stripling warriors. And as a mom, I love this story, and we talk about the story a lot. There are a couple of things we know. Whenever anybody mentions the 2,000 strippling warriors, they’re like, “Oh, their mothers knew.” Yes, their mothers knew. They were exactly obedient, and that’s the two things that we talk about. I think we miss one of the most important parts of this story in chapter 57, verse 25, Alma 57:25. And it came to pass that there were 200 out of my 2,060 who had fainted because of the loss of blood. Nevertheless, according to the goodness of God and to our great astonishment, and also the joy of our whole army, there was not one soul of them who did perish, yea, and neither was there one soul among them who had not received many wounds.

                                           00:51:09             They were all wounded. They all suffered with a loss of blood. In this battle, we will be wounded, all of us. Both things can be true. They survived and they were wounded. These wounds of these stripling warriors and the wounds that my students have, and that my children have, that they come with suffering with loss of blood and some pretty deep wounds, that doesn’t mean that they failed. That doesn’t mean that they’re not going to win. That’s part of the journey. It’s part of and them becoming who they are, that their wounds help them understand and turn to the Savior if they allow it. Some of my favorite passages in the Book of Mormon are in 3 Nephi 11. They’re gathered together at the temple mount after all of this destruction. And can we see a parallel with the destruction in Isaiah? All of this destruction, and they hear a voice out of heaven and they don’t understand it, and it says on the third time in 3 Nephi chapter 11, Here is the voice that says, Here’s my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.

                                           00:52:27             Then they look and they think it’s an angel. Did they really understand the voice or did they just hear the words? I often think, how many times am I sitting in conference or in sacrament meeting? And maybe I hear the words, but am I understanding really what they mean? If I’m not understanding, I’m missing him. I’m missing everything. They think it’s a man, and then how does he let them know that it’s him?

John Bytheway:               00:52:55             He tells them.

Hank Smith:                      00:52:56             He tells them and says, “Come up.”

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:52:59             And look at my scars. Feel the wounds in my hands and in my feet. They recognize him by his scars. And I often wonder, will the Savior recognize me because of my scars? Later in Isaiah, we’re going to see Isaiah 53, that when his soul has made an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. The same thing is in Alma where Mosiah says, “When his soul has made an offering for sin, he shall see his seed.” I think one of my favorite quotes is from Elder Bateman, “Instead of an impersonal mass of sin, there was a long line of people as Jesus felt our infirmities, bore our griefs, carried our sorrows, and was bruised for our iniquities.” In the Garden of Gethsemane and through the cross where Jesus saw us, he came to know us one by one. I often think of these wounded stripling warriors and the wounded people in my life and my woundedness, and it’s He who can repair that and restore that. He knows me from my wounds. He knows me by my scars, just as we can recognize Him through His.

Hank Smith:                      00:54:18             Wow. Kathryn, this has been fantastic. My great-great-grandfather wrote in a hymn, “Babylon the great is falling. God shall all her towers overthrow, come to Zion.” That’s what we’re getting here. All right, what are we going to do next?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:54:35             Come, Follow Me, skips over chapters 15 through 22, and John said earlier, he didn’t think Isaiah liked to be skipped over. But a lot of these chapters have a very similar theme where people are not trusting in the great Jehovah, and they’re looking elsewhere. What has happened in the northern kingdom is also going to continue to happen, and there will be destruction as people do not look towards God and towards the Savior. So in chapter 15, we see the burden of Moab and Moab is laid to waste. But I love verse five in chapter 15, where it teaches us who God is and who Isaiah is, that he is a prophet called for the world. He is speaking to all. He says, “My heart shall cry out for Moab.” I just think the tenderness in that statement and in that line where here is a prophet, it reminds me of, “And my tears shall water my pillow by night,” where a prophet is just heartsick over the choices that people are making. Isaiah’s like, can you not see? Do you not see who is before you? It makes me sad and my heart is crying out because you are choosing other than God.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:05             Our friend Damian Fink loves Moab, John. “My heart shall cry out for Moab.”

John Bytheway:               00:56:11             And I shall take my mountain bike. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:13             Yeah, my Jeep.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:56:16             That might be his favorite verse in all of scripture.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:18             It might be, yeah. I think it’s crucial that we point that out, that Isaiah and the Lord, this destruction is not something that makes them happy.

John Bytheway:               00:56:30             Isn’t it in Ezekiel somewhere that the Lord says, “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should perish instead of choosing me?” And I think that’s a theme, like you just said, Kathryn, of Isaiah, is stop making alliances with other nations, ally yourself with me, keeps telling them over and over, “Let me be your ally. I’ll fight your battles for you if you’ll let me be your ally.” But they’re always choosing someone else, it seems.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           00:56:57             Yeah. In hindsight, we’re like, “Well, why do they keep choosing somebody else? Of course, let God fight your battles.” But how often are we choosing other things? When God is saying, “Trust me,” are we going to trust our education? Are we going to trust our money? Are we going to trust social media? Are we going to trust somebody who has a specific degree more than a prophet or more than the scriptures? It’s the same question that a prophet is asking us, even in President Oak’s first address, his, like, first live address as prophet where he spoke to the BYU students and to the world, like, who are you going to trust? This is what Isaiah is saying, “Look to me, look to God.” And we’re going to see in chapters 15 and 16, and in all of these, it’s really pride that is leading these nations astray.

                                           00:57:56             And I love this quote from C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis says, “Pride leads to every other vice. It is the complete anti-God state of mind.” Then chapter 21, Babylon has fallen, is fallen. Other nations also are destroyed. Then it takes us where Come, Follow Me picks back up in chapter 22, where Jerusalem will be attacked and scourged, and the people will be carried captive. This is where we’re going to see God allows consequences of actions. Isaiah’s going to give us a very tangible picture of what misplaced trust looks like. These people here are trusting in other nations. Maybe go inward and think, what are you putting trust in? As we study here in chapter 22, it is going to take us back to the time in 2 Kings, actually, where Jerusalem is spared at the last minute, also because Hezekiah, who is a king, turns to Isaiah and asks for guidance and help as a prophet. John, do you want to recap that story of what happens in 2 Kings, chapters 18 and 19?

John Bytheway:               00:59:12             In 2 Nephi chapter 20, which is Isaiah 10, you’ve got these verses that Isaiah uses, I think, 108 different place names. When we read it, we really have to slow down in some of these verses. Isaiah says, “Be not afraid of the Assyrian.” And then he starts talking about the approach of the Assyrian armies. I am in my Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi Chapter 20. Listen to these verses. “He has come to Aiath. He has passed to Migron. At Michmash, he hath laid up his carriages. They are gone over the passage. They have taken up their lodging at Geba. Ramath is afraid. Gibeah of Saul is fled. Lift up the voice, O daughter of Gallim. Cause it to be heard until Laish, O poor Anathoth.” You’re reading that just going, I have no idea what’s happening here. But thank you scripture committee for the footnotes.

                                           01:00:04             Footnote 28A, I’m in my paper version, Book of Mormon, page 92. It says, “The Assyrian invasion forces introduced in verse five progressed toward Jerusalem.” I saw Elder Gerald Lund talk about this once, and he said, “Let’s pretend Jerusalem is Salt Lake City, and let’s pretend we are sitting on Temple Square.” Then he said, “Now I’m going to repeat it as if we’re in Utah.” Maybe more of our listeners are familiar with Utah. Okay, they’ve come to Ogden, they’ve passed over at Syracuse, they’ve gone over the passage, they’ve taken up their lodging at Bountiful. North Salt Lake City is afraid and they’re getting closer and closer. And then verse 32, yet shall he remain at Nob. Elder Lund said, now they’re on Capitol Hill. We’re at Temple Square. We can see an army of 185,000 shaking their fists at us and we can hear them. And then what happens?

                                           01:01:05             This is that miraculous saving of Jerusalem, one of the examples of that. Then suddenly the Lord becomes like a lumberjack. 2 Nephi chapter 20 verse 33, “The Lord, the Lord of Hosts, shall lop the bough with terror. The high ones of stature shall be hewn down and the haughty shall be humbled. He shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.” Where does Lebanon come from? Well, the cedars of Lebanon were legendary for how huge they were, so the cedars of Lebanon became a symbol of strength and pride, but here the Lord’s going to cut it all down. So what happened was this army got wiped out and we read the rest of the story of the Assyrians at Nob shaking their fists and saying, we’re going to attack. It’s told in Isaiah 37, starting in verse 36.

                                           01:01:58             Interestingly, it’s not in the Book of Mormon. You have to go here to see, well, what happened as these Assyrian forces were getting closer and closer? Verse 36 says, “Then the angel of the Lord went forth and smote in the camp of the Assyrians 104 score and 5,000.” And here’s a line that’s kind of humorous without intending to be probably, “And when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.” You have to know who they is. Who is it? Did the dead corpses arise and go, “Hey, what happened?” The point we’re making is in their own history, in their own minds, they knew Jerusalem’s always saved. So Lehi had a tough sell when he goes out to say Jerusalem itself will be destroyed.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:02:45             Yeah, because that’s what they’re referring to in this chapter is the Assyrian army is surrounding Jerusalem like they’re right on the doorstep.

John Bytheway:               01:02:54             Closer and closer and closer. Yeah.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:02:56             Closer and closer. And they send three people out on the wall. The three people on the wall are trying to speak and save Jerusalem. He starts speaking to them in Hebrew and they’re like, “Oh, speak in Syrian so the people don’t hear you, don’t understand you.” He yells out, “Don’t trust Hezekiah. Don’t trust Jerusalem and don’t trust Jehovah because I will burn this city.” And he’s hearing it so all the people then understand and hear that. The crazy thing is as they’re thinking this, here is Shebna who is one of the ones who goes up onto the wall to talk with the Assyrian army. In verse 15, like Shebna, who now the army’s there and he’s afraid they’re going to be destroyed. In verse 16, he says, “What hast thou here and whom hast thou here? That thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here as he that heweth him out a sepulchre on high and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock.” He’s like, I know I’m going to die, so I’m going to build myself a sepulchre. In the few hours that are remaining, what do I want?

                                           01:04:02             I want to preserve my glory so people will know who I am. Then we have in verse 20, “And it shall come to pass in that day that I will call my servant Eliakim.” Here we have the servant Eliakim, which again, Isaiah uses symbols and we can use symbols to represent gospel truths and principles that we know and understand like Babylon, like Lucifer, that name, Eliakim has three meanings in Hebrew. The first one is, My God shall be lifted up. The second is my God shall arise. And the third is my God shall cause to arise. Here we have Eliakim that is called as a servant that God shall lift up, that God shall arise. And verse 21, and I will clothe him with thy robe and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

                                           01:05:07             And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder. Very messianic language. So he shall open and none shall shut and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house. So Eliakim whose name means to be lifted up and I will clothe him in a robe and the government shall be upon his shoulders and I will give him the key of David and I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place. I think it’s important to understand what that meant, like a nail in a sure place. A covenant nail was made out of like bone or clay. They would write the terms of the covenant on the nail and then hammer it into the wall in the center of the room and they’d hang things from it so that it was a constant reminder of an everyday covenant that they had made, whether it was for their mortgage or a promise that they had made. And then they would hang everything from it as an everyday reminder of a covenant that they had made. Here we have this image of a nail in a sure place.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:26             So this Eliakim, he’s going to take Shebna’s place. I just want to make sure I understand. He is going to be able to save Jerusalem. He’s going to be like this nail in a sure place which can hold weight. But then even that’s going to fall. That must be the future destruction, I would say in verse 25. Even that nail that is in the sure place shall be removed. So eventually Jerusalem will fall. It won’t be for what, 100 years later or more, but Jerusalem is going to be saved from the Assyrians, but not from the Babylonians, which maybe verse 25 is referring to. Am I close do you think there, Kathryn?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:07:03             Yeah. And verse 25, in that day saith the Lord of Hosts shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed and be cut down and fall and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off for the Lord hath spoken it. Isaiah is speaking about his day, the Assyrians and the Babylonians and this nail in a sure place. Eliakim will be raised up instead of Shebna.

Hank Smith:                      01:07:27             So I could liken Shebna to someone I did rely on and he bails. He’s like, it’s over. But then here comes this Eliakim who we could relate as the Savior who stands firm. And my covenants with him.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:07:44             And maybe it’s also interesting to note, Hank, that the Savior will come and liken our covenants with Him. I think it’s important to realize that often the Savior comes at the last moment.

John Bytheway:               01:07:59             The fourth watch.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:08:00             Yes. We believe in a fourth watch God. Maybe somebody is wondering what the fourth watch is when we talk about the fourth watch. Hank, do you want to explain what the fourth watch is?

Hank Smith:                      01:08:12             Sure, sure. There’s just a New Testament reference where the disciples are out rowing one night. They’re out there a long time. The fourth watch is what? Between 3:00 and 6:00 AM. So they’ve been, let’s say if they went out there in the evening, 6:00 PM, they’ve been out there for nine to 12 hours. I don’t know how many of you have spent nine to 12 hours on a rowing machine, but you might be thinking, “I’m done here. I don’t think I can make it.” Then in the fourth watch, he shows up walking on the sea. Very similar here. Here is Assyria. They are at the door. Is he really going to save us? And he does.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:08:55             I wish that he were always a first watch God, but so often it’s that fourth watch. It’s in those final moments. It’s the widow of Zarephath, who takes her last bit of oil and her handful of meal. It’s the Israelites at the Red Sea. When the army is coming in and they are right at the shores, Jairus’s daughter after she has passed away. It’s the woman with the issue of blood who has waited 12 years. I feel like it’s in that waiting. Sometimes it’s not until the very last moment that he comes. And I’ve thought about this in my life. Why is he a fourth watch God? Why doesn’t he come earlier? He knows he’s going to save the city of Jerusalem. Why did he let the Assyrian army get all the way up to the gates? Is it for my learning? Is it so I can learn in whom to trust?

                                           01:09:55             Is it because those hours spent in the middle of the night rowing on the water, the apostles learned something? Why does he wait to answer a prayer that I’ve prayed years for and I’m still waiting? Even though it’s a good prayer, even though it’s, my intentions are good and I feel like that is what Heavenly Father wants. Why does that prayer go unanswered for so long? I don’t know. But I do know to whom I’m praying, I do know whose hand is mighty to save. Can I just trust that in the storms and in the darkness, and sometimes when heaven seems silent, that there is a reason and a purpose and a plan and that he is the maker of the plan. And I love Romans chapter eight where he talks about God’s plan is good. When I think of God’s plan is good, I think God’s plan is comfortable.

                                           01:11:06             God’s plan will work out. Everything’s going to be great and happy and I’m going to be in a barbecue in my backyard forever. Like God’s plan is good. That’s chapter eight. But in chapter eight verse 29 of Romans, God’s plan is good because it will help us become like him. And that’s not comfortable and that’s not easy, friends. God’s plan is good, but it’s not easy. It means waves and it means sometimes feeling like we’re drowning. It means darkness, but can we trust that God is the God of the fourth watch? Before it’s too late, he will be there. And he’s been there the whole time. He watched the apostles the whole time. He knew, but they needed to learn. I’ve even thought about this like with Genesis and Noah. He’s given the commandment to build an ark. Okay, build an ark. Then he’s told that the animals will come and they get on the ark.

                                           01:12:15             But my favorite line in that is that God shut them in. God closed the door. We believe in a fourth watch God and a God who closes doors. I don’t always know why the door is closed, but I do know that all things shall work together for my good if I trust, if I look to him and trust in his hand, that he can use that to shape me to become like him. He cares about my growth and who I can become.

Hank Smith:                      01:12:50             Perhaps these moments where you get pushed and pushed and pushed, if you find out about your own faith, Job says, “Though he slay me, I will trust in him.” You don’t say stuff like that until you’re pushed. Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego say, Our God can deliver us, but if not –

John Bytheway:               01:13:10             Able to save us, yeah.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:12             Yeah. But if not, I will, I’m going to go the distance. Abinadi.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:13:17             They’re not saved from the fire.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:19             Yeah.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:13:20             They’re saved in it.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:21             You can round up your shoulders and say, “I choose him no matter what. Even if the saving that I want isn’t coming, I still choose you.” There’s a power in that that you’re probably not going to get in any other way other than being pushed that far.

John Bytheway:               01:13:37             To the limit, yeah. What does Job say? Though worms destroy this body yet in my flesh shall I see God. He’s, I got a testimony of the resurrection. I got a testimony that things are going to work out and like you said, ultimately work out, maybe next life work out even. Like you said, Kathryn, God is more interested in our growth than He is in our comfort. If we were able to check the box, we’d probably say, can you be more interested in my comfort instead?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:14:09             Isn’t that what a good plan is?

John Bytheway:               01:14:11             Yeah, that sounds like a good plan. The comfortable plan of salvation.

Hank Smith:                      01:14:16             How many times have we talked about my faith is not in outcomes, my faith is in the Lord? Being pushed to the fourth watch can help you make that decision. Yes, this is what I want, but my faith is not in what I want. My faith is in you. Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done. The Savior was pushed in that exact same spot. Thank you for that, Kathryn. It’s hard when you see the Shebnas of your life fall and you think that, that was my guy. You were my way out.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:14:46             And did I hang everything on that?

Hank Smith:                      01:14:48             Yeah. Kathryn, this is where you’re saying he came through for them. That’s why a hundred or so years later, the people of Lehi are saying, we’re fine.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:14:59             Look at that huge army, the Assyrian army that were destroyed.

John Bytheway:               01:15:04             Yeah. 185,000 in a matter of hours are gone. Jerusalem can’t be destroyed. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      01:15:10             You can see the people of Jerusalem saying, we’ve got to get rid of you. You’re anti-God. God saves us all the time. Laman and Lemuel, that city can’t be destroyed. God would never let it happen.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:15:23             And even Isaiah references, like, they like those who speak smooth.

John Bytheway:               01:15:28             Oh, I love that verse.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:15:30             I do too. They like prophets who speak to what they want.

John Bytheway:               01:15:36             Chapter 30 verse 10.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:15:38             “Which say to the seer, see not and to the prophets, prophesy not unto us right things. Speak unto us smooth things.” They want easy things. Like we were saying, they want good things, like what they think is good. They don’t want to hear that Jerusalem will be destroyed. They don’t want to hear the hard things that a prophet is called to speak in boldness.

Hank Smith:                      01:15:59             This is The Cost and Blessings of Discipleship, April of 2014. Jeffrey R. Holland. He quotes Jesus, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” He says, “That’s the message for every young man and young woman in this church. You may wonder if it is worth it to take a courageous moral stand in high school or go on to mission only to have your most cherished beliefs reviled or to strive against much in society that sometimes ridicules a life of religious devotion. Yes, it is worth it because the alternative is to have your house left unto you desolate, desolate individuals, families, desolate neighborhoods, desolate nations.” He says, “That is the burden of those who bear the Messianic message. We teach, we encourage, we cheer people on, and from time to time, we are called upon to worry, to warn, and to weep.” He says, “We know full well that the road leading to the promised land that flows with milk and honey of necessity runs by the way of Mount Sinai, which flows with thou shalts and thou shalt nots.”

John Bytheway:               01:17:14             Love it.

Hank Smith:                      01:17:17             And this is where he pulls it, his wonderful Elder Holland way. He says, “Sadly enough, it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any God at all, they want gods who don’t demand much, comfortable gods, smooth gods.” There’s that word right out of Isaiah 30. “Smooth gods who not only don’t rock the boat, they don’t even row it. Gods who pat us on the head, make us giggle, tell us to run along and pick marigolds.”

John Bytheway:               01:17:47             Got to love Elder Holland.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:17:51             Sometimes that’s the God we want too. We want a God who, when he says the plan is good, that means that it’s comfortable. That means things work out and turn out, but that’s not the plan. The plan is to become like Him. And prophets, I can only imagine as we’ve talked through here Isaiah and Isaiah weeps and it’s hard for him and speak the words that he probably didn’t necessarily want to. It’s up to me to understand, to be receptive and to become like him, not just look for the smooth and the easy, but to feel that nudge and feel that impression of divine discontent. I love that talk from Sister Becky Craven and the importance of divine discontent.

                                           01:18:43             There’s a difference between shame and guilt and sometimes we confuse those and there’s a difference between beating myself up and divine discontent. I always want to feel a little divine discontent because I always want to become more like Him. When I’m listening to prophets, if I’m not looking for a little divine discontent, then they’re not prophets on the tower warning us of how to become like him and what’s to come. So can I listen as conference comes up, where do you notice a little divine discontent? And what are you prompted or inspired to do and to become?

John Bytheway:               01:19:24             Isn’t it easy to listen to General Conference for somebody else? Boy, I know somebody who needs this. And to sit there and go, do I do that? Ah, I do that. Those moments of some divine discontent. I mean, if you’re having those, that’s a good thing.

Hank Smith:                      01:19:41             Yeah, I was going to say, when it stings, don’t automatically push back, just let it sting for a second and then take a breath and say, do I need this? Instead of, oh, don’t say that to me. Speak unto me smooth things. Even if you have to prophesy lies.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:20:00             Elder Holland said at a funeral that when he would partake of the sacrament, he’d think of two things. What is something that I’m doing that I should stop doing, and what is something that I’m not doing that I should start doing? That to me is a little divine discontent. What should I stop and what should I start without letting it spiral about how horrible I am or look how many mistakes I’ve made or I’m never going to be like so-and-so, so-and-so. That’s not divine discontent.

Hank Smith:                      01:20:27             I got to read you a little bit more from this talk just because it’s so good when we’re talking about Elder Holland. He said, “Often people invoke the name of Jesus as one who was a kind of comfortable God. Really? He who said not only should we not break commandments, but we should not even think about breaking them. And if we do think about breaking them, we’ve already broken them in our heart. Does that sound like a comfortable doctrine, easy on the ear and popular down at the village love-in?” He says, “And what of those who just want to look at sin or touch it from a distance? Jesus said with a flash, if your eye offends you, pluck it out. If your hand offends you, cut it off. I came not to bring peace, but a sword. He warned those who thought he spoke only soothing platitudes. No wonder that sermon after sermon, the local communities prayed him to depart out of their coasts. No wonder, miracle after miracle, his power was attributed not to God, but to the devil. It is obvious that the bumper sticker question, what would Jesus do? will not always bring a popular response.” Isn’t that great? Kathryn, walk us through these last few chapters. Where are we going to go next?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:21:38             In chapter 23 and 24, we’re going to see the apostasy, chapter 24 verse five is a beautiful description of the apostasy. “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, broken the everlasting covenant.” Because the covenant has been broken, there needed to be a restoration or a repairer of that covenant, of the new and everlasting covenant. Chapter 24 is helping us see this apostasy that will happen, the sorrow of wickedness, and then on the other hand, the joy of righteousness and the restoration as Jesus is the restorer. In chapter 25 in Mount Zion, the Lord will prepare a gospel feast of rich food. And the imagery in this chapter, like all of Isaiah, is beautiful. We see this great reversal of a feast of fat things and a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow of wines on the lees well refined.

                                           01:22:51             Also, I think of the Savior reading this chapter because he grew up with the Old Testament, like he read Isaiah. As he read this chapter, what was brought to his mind? What did he understand? We know the wedding feast of Canaan and the miracle of the wine and taking away the shame of the host. Did the Savior also understand, as he read these, that he would be the one to bring forth this sacramental meal?

Hank Smith:                      01:23:28             That’s got to be a beautiful moment, something you would want to witness is the Savior learning who he is through reading Isaiah.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:23:37             And this imagery, and I love chapter 25 verse eight, “He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces, and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth.” Again, that’s Revelation 7:17 is also coming back to this image of he shall wipe away tears. Well, the reason why he can wipe away tears is because he’s also bringing justice. He can’t wipe away tears without also bringing justice and helping us become. How personal and intimate that is to wipe away tears. I don’t think there’s any tears that I’ve wiped away besides that of like my children where I physically wiped them away because of that, a sense of how personal and intimate that is, that he will come and wipe away tears, that he will swallow up death, that he will loose the bands of death.

                                           01:24:40             And in verse nine, “And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God. We have waited for him. He will save us. This is the Lord. We have waited for him. We will be glad and rejoice in his salvation, for in the mountain shall the hand of the Lord rest.” What are you waiting for right now? What are you waiting on? And can you trust that he will provide that? That’s what it means to be a restorer and a repairer.

Hank Smith:                      01:25:08             What I’ve seen so far is justice and mercy. The justice, the destruction, the consequences of sin, this is real. Isaiah does not hold back when he says this is what happens. When you align yourself with other gods, with other helps, this is the destruction that comes. And he is coming to save you from that. He will be there.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:25:35             And how important it is to know that both can be true? I think we live in a world that likes either or. Both are true in this. And chapter 26, I think is beautiful in that day, again, in that day. There’s actually a great series from the Bible Project called The Day of the Lord. Are you guys familiar with the Bible Project?

Hank Smith:                      01:25:58             Yeah, absolutely.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:25:59             There’s a great series they do, where it’s a whole series about in that day and understanding what that reference means. And again, Isaiah’s referencing that in that day, and I love verse three, “That will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee because he trusteth in thee.” What do you think that means, “Whose mind is stayed on thee?”

John Bytheway:               01:26:22             I think of my sisters growing up. I used to watch them sew. They would get out big cardboard things and lay out patterns and they would sew their own clothes. There was a thing called a fabric stay when they would sew. I just remember the idea of a fabric stay. When I see stay in Isaiah, I can say, rely. I rely on this. Whose mind is relying on thee because he trusteth in thee.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:26:50             I love that. I will keep my eyes on you. I will trust in you. I will rely on you. I’m going to fix my focus. I’m going to keep looking to you, and I’m going to keep watching. You go the direction you look. You’re going to go the direction you face. There’s a couple brilliant metaphors of that. I actually have a niece who, they were riding snowmobiles in Yellowstone in this huge open field, and my brother just said to her, don’t hit that pole.

John Bytheway:               01:27:25             That focuses you on it.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:27:26             There’s one pole in the middle of the field. Don’t hit that pole. Well, guess what she did?

John Bytheway:               01:27:31             Hit the pole.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:27:32             She hit the pole. She had this whole field and she goes and crashes the snowmobile right into that one pole. Why? Because it was like, look at that. Even if you have this whole field, you are going to go in the direction that you look. So where are you looking? And to whom are you looking? That story in 2 Chronicles I love with King Jehoshaphat, where there’s an army around them, there’s this big threat. Again, we see these threats and these armies, this multination is invading, and what does King Jehoshaphat say? He’s like, I don’t know what to do. We don’t know what to do or where to go, but here’s what I do know. Our eyes are upon thee. I don’t know the answer to this question. I don’t know how to help this child. I don’t know when the job will come. I don’t know, but my eyes are upon you. I’m going to keep my focus. I’m going to rely. And when my focus strays, I’m going to fix it again. I’m just going to keep my eyes on thee, and I think whose mind has stayed on me.

Hank Smith:                      01:28:42             John, I’ve told this story before. Our founder, the beginnings of our podcast were with Steve and Shannon Sorensen. It started with a phone call between the three of us. And then just after we got started, Steve passed away suddenly, completely unexpected. In my interactions with Shannon, who is still our executive producer after all these years, she would say the same thing almost every time. She would say, “We trust the plan.” She would talk about the mourning and the heartache and the tears, and they were real. That pain was real. It was a constant ache that she and her family could not escape, but it was always followed up with, “I trust the plan.” I’ve never forgotten it. I repeat it to myself when something happens and I think, no, no, no. We trust the plan. My mind is on you. My body is in pain, but my mind, my mind is on you.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:29:40             Why can we trust the plan? Because we know the maker of the plan. We know his heart. As we kind of move through here, we see verse 19 and 26, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust.” We begin to see the deliverance. It’s the restorer in chapter 27, “In that day, the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan, the piercing serpent, even leviathan, that crooked serpent, and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.” So we’re going to see that leviathan is a serpent and a dragon. And if you even look at the footnote, leviathan is a legendary sea monster representing the forces of chaos that oppose the creator. In that day, sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine. Verse three, “I, the Lord, do keep it. I will water it every moment, lest any hurt it. I will keep it night and day.” Why do we trust the plan? Because it was made by Him, the Lord who keeps it, who waters every moment, who will keep anybody from hurting it.

Hank Smith:                      01:30:54             Kathryn, I can see why Nephi loves this. He is living the scattering. He’s literally saying, oh yeah, that happened. Oh yeah, that happened. I’m actually in this. I’m in this darkness, this scattering of Israel over the earth. And here’s Isaiah saying, but you can hold on. You can hold onto the Redeemer. No wonder, Nephi. He lives on this.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:31:17             Like this is his hope. He hasn’t seen the deliverance, but yet he knows in whom he has trusted. He has hope that he will water it. Hank, you’re right. Like he’s living this destruction. And what gives Nephi hope is the deliverance that Isaiah also prophesies of, that in that day there will be deliverance. Israel shall blossom and bud and fill the face of the world with fruit.

Hank Smith:                      01:31:47             Yeah, that’s fascinating.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:31:49             And in that day that the great trumpet shall be blown and they shall come, which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria and the outcast in the land of Egypt and shall worship the Lord and the Holy Mount at Jerusalem. He’s seeing this gathering to worship, this gathering of people even through the destruction. They shall be gathered one by one. Where else do we see that phrase?

Hank Smith:                      01:32:15             That’s a 3 Nephi phrase.

John Bytheway:               01:32:16             One by one. Yeah.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:32:18             How does he love us? One by one. How will he repair us? One by one. He rescues us one by one. We get to be a part of that.

Hank Smith:                      01:32:31             You’ve really brought out the beauty of Isaiah by showing us these extremes. I don’t know if these beautiful sections would be as beautiful when they’re not put right next to the really horrific destruction that he describes. So the two put side by side, I can see why Nephi’s, “Well, he was right about this. He’s going to be right about this.”

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:32:52             And I think that’s the power of scripture. He saved the children of Israel, he can save me. If he’s the same God yesterday, today, and forever, then if he saved them from the Assyrian armies at their door, can he not do that for me? As we look at all of these stories, if he saved and healed the woman with the issue of blood, then if he’s the same God yesterday, today, and forever, that means he also can heal me and he can make me whole in his time. Maybe it’s going to be at the very last minute, but I can trust him because he’s done it before and he’ll do it again.

Hank Smith:                      01:33:30             This is comforting to me. A lot of this destruction were my choices, right? Like I chose this and he’s still willing to step in. Yes, I’m going to suffer some of the consequences of this, but the idea that I made these decisions and he still steps in to save me, and I can turn to him even after making these terrible decisions that brought on these consequences, I can then turn to him and he will still heal and repair.

John Bytheway:               01:34:00             If the Lord asks us to forgive, not just seven times, but seven times 70, don’t you think he also forgives again and again and again if we just keep coming back?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:34:16             And I love verse 11. Maybe this is just really applicable to us and to me right now, “For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” He uses imperfect people and maybe my lips have stammered today as we’ve spoken and it hasn’t been perfect, but can you understand my heart and can God use the weak things of the world to help bring about the restoration of all that is good, even with my stammering lips?

Hank Smith:                      01:34:51             That’s great because in his call, as we read last week, that’s something he says when the Lord calls him. Isaiah, he says, “Whom shall I send? I’m a man of unclean lips.” He’s worried about those lips. He says, I am not your guy. There’s a reference to it there. I like that you pointed that out, Kathryn. He’s going to teach even with the stammering lips of prophets and teachers and.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:35:16             Even in my weakness, I will do what he’s asked me to do and trust that the Spirit will carry it forth. As we continue through some of this, he has such great imagery, like verse 20, “For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.” I don’t know if there is a better image for the lack of nourishment that anybody but the true vine can give than that. I have kids who are longer than a bed and there’s nothing worse than sleeping and having your feet hang over or to try and get warm and I have a comforter or a blanket that will only cover – It’s too small. It is too small.

John Bytheway:               01:36:04             Verse 20.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:36:06             I think that is just so good. Isaiah’s imagery here is just like, hey, listen, this is what’s going to happen. This is what it’s going to feel like. Trust that the restoration is coming.

Hank Smith:                      01:36:19             That would be an interesting way to teach youth. Here’s this freezing room. Here’s your blanket.

John Bytheway:               01:36:25             Your bed’s too short, your blanket won’t cover your feet. Yeah.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:36:28             Do you want it to cover your feet or your head? Like you have to choose because it’s not going to cover all of it. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      01:36:35             That’s a fun analogy. Something you’re like, oh, that doesn’t sound comfortable.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:36:39             Right. And because it’s not, now let me show you what will happen. Chapter 29.

John Bytheway:               01:36:45             Oh boy, here it comes. The words of a book.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:36:49             Yes, and I love it. Verse four, “And thou,” referring to Jerusalem, “shalt be brought down and shalt speak out of the ground. Thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be as of one that hath a familiar spirit out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.” Obviously, we compared this chapter, chapter 29 to 2 Nephi 27. I do think it’s interesting to note chapter 27 has 54 verses. Isaiah 29 only has 24. So again, how John was saying earlier that we have things to help us understand Isaiah, part of that are 30 more verses in chapter 27 to understand this section, this chapter of Isaiah.

Hank Smith:                      01:37:37             This is the extra fries, right, John?

John Bytheway:               01:37:39             That’s right, bonus fries.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:37:41             It’s also like chapter 25 in 2 Nephi chapter 25 verse seven, “In the days that the prophecies of Isaiah shall be fulfilled, men shall know of a surety.” The prophecies of Isaiah are being fulfilled and from the dust of the ground shall a book come forth. Oh, wait. Yeah, Isaiah did prophesy of that. Now I know for a surety. Now I can see those prophecies.

Hank Smith:                      01:38:10             So fun to think of Nephi reading this, going, I wonder what that is. I wonder what that book’s going to be that maybe hits him. Oh.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:38:22             And when did it hit him?

Hank Smith:                      01:38:23             Yeah, I’m part of this.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:38:25             That’s maybe why I love Isaiah so much is because I love to wonder and imagine when Jesus was reading this, when Mary was reading this, when Nephi was reading this, when did they begin to understand and see and how did that help them in their journey and in their ministry? Like verse 10, “For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of a deep sleep and hath closed your eyes, the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned saying, read this, I pray thee. He saith, I cannot for it is sealed.” Again, many people talk about this prophecy of the time where Martin Harris took the pages to Charles Anthon, the learned man, and he said, well, I can’t read that for the book is sealed. Again, like this prophecy of voices raising from the ground and from the dust and what the Lord is wanting us to understand.

                                           01:39:27             Verse 13, wherefore the Lord said, For as much as the people drawn near me with their mouth and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Because they’re afraid of me and they don’t understand my true nature and they don’t understand who I am and the work I have done among the children of Israel from the beginning until now, what am I going to do to help solve this very important problem? Behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid, woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord and their works are in the dark and they saith who seeth us and who knoweth us?

                                           01:40:18             Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay. Because of this, because people don’t know who I am, what am I going to do? I’m going to bring forth a marvelous work and a wonder. I’m going to bring forth voices from the dust so that we can understand the very nature of the God we worship, so we can understand the God who restores, the God who cleanses, the God who repairs, who makes a desert bloom. That’s why I’m going to bring forth the Book of Mormon so that this broken covenant that we read about can be repaired.

John Bytheway:               01:40:56             Yeah, it’s such a pivotal moment. It’s kind of, what would you call it, code? Because that phrase, we see it in different places, a marvelous work and a wonder, that’s the restoration. Here comes the restoration. Here comes this voice out of the dust and the specifics of it.

Hank Smith:                      01:41:14             What was it, John? Two years ago, more than that, that we had our discussion in 2 Nephi with Dr. Joe Spencer, the chapter of 2 Nephi 27, which is this chapter in the Book of Mormon, and that discussion was life-changing for me, really, when he talked about the difference between the book, which is the plates, and the words of the book, which is the actual text, and how many of us want to see the book. We want the evidence. We want to see the plates. And the Lord says, no, I want you to have the words of the book. I thought it was life-changing because we get a little addicted, I think, to Book of Mormon evidence, the plates.

John Bytheway:               01:41:54             And we’re looking beyond the words. And what does the Book of Mormon say? The plates thereof is of no worth, but the words are of great worth. Don’t miss the meat in the, yeah, it was something that had the appearance of gold that brought them to us, but that itself was just bringing the words to us, which are of greater worth, the actual message and the testimony.

Hank Smith:                      01:42:18             It’s the text that changes you.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:42:21             And how long did it take for Joseph to learn that as well? That it wasn’t the gold plates that would change him, it was the words. I mean, he even had to wrestle with that when he looked at the value of the plates themselves instead of the value of the words.

Hank Smith:                      01:42:40             We said on that episode, if the Lord wanted to, he could just put the plates in the Church History Museum and let people go and look at them and translate them, and wow, it is what it claims to be. But that’s not what changes people. It’s the text. It’s spending time in the text. The marvelous work and the wonder can happen in me with the text of the book. When I spend time in the text, I am changed. You’re right on there, Kathryn, with what you said. This book is the answer. It is coming to save Israel. There’s a moment where Isaiah says, look, if you think you’re going to beat God, you think you’re going to win against God’s work, you’re like a man who is dreaming and he is just eating away. But when he wakes up, he is hungry. You’re not winning when you’re fighting against the Lord, and here comes this book.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:43:31             To teach people who I am, that is the power of the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ. It teaches me who the Savior is. It teaches me his heart. It teaches me how to take upon the biography of Jesus Christ, how to become like him, that God’s plan is good because it helps me understand who He is. That’s the marvelous work and the wonder. It’s not the plates, it’s the words of the plate. I love that.

Hank Smith:                      01:44:03             I have noticed this just in the last few years. The book doesn’t open for everyone. Some will read it and it just is nothing. There’s nothing speaking to them. What I have noticed is that the book opens to those who are willing to let God prevail. So when someone reads the book and doesn’t like it, I don’t think we need to get up all in panic. It’s just not their moment.

John Bytheway:               01:44:29             There was a verse that I relied on as a single adult after I surpassed my eligibility as a young single adult and went in just to a single adult before I got married. The verse is so easy to remember because it’s one, one, one, one, one. Section 111, verse 11. “Therefore, be as wise as serpents and yet without sin, and I,” the Lord talking, “I will order all things for your good as fast as ye are able to receive them.” So like you were saying, Hank, maybe some read it and they’re not in that place yet. The Lord says, “I will order all things for your good as fast as ye are able to receive them.” And he knows what he’s doing. He’s a little more patient than we are sometimes, but.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:45:18             Yes. It’s Isaiah chapter 30 verse 18. “Therefore, will the Lord wait that he may be gracious unto you.” God will wait. He will wait till we’re ready, till our hearts are ready and our eyes can see.

John Bytheway:               01:45:35             Order all things for our good.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:45:37             Yeah, and be gracious unto you.

John Bytheway:               01:45:41             I like verses that say the Lord will be gracious. That’s a good one.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:45:44             Right.

John Bytheway:               01:45:44             I’m underlining it.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:45:46             I also love that whole verse, that he will wait. Because sometimes we think, as parents or as leaders that maybe somebody’s choosing some choices that we’re not sure of or that we are nervous of. Can we just trust that God’s waiting? And that he will gather them back.

John Bytheway:               01:46:10             Boy, and look at verse 20. “And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner anymore, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers, and thine eyes shall hear a word behind thee saying, this is the way. Walk ye in it.” So good.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:46:31             So good. And if you look at the footnotes in 20, it’s actually teacher as in capital T, “But thine eyes shall see thy Teacher” as in the Lord. Back to 29, verses 18 and 19. “And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the holy one of Israel.” Like rejoice and find their joy, their joy in the Lord because of the words of the book, because of the sacrifices these prophets have made in teaching and testifying and following and in writing down these words, we get to rejoice. We get to have joy in a merciful Lord, in one who will bring us and repair us and restore us.

                                           01:47:31             That is the message of Isaiah. He is helping us see with our own eyes who Jesus is, who God is. He’s asking us to walk in that way, to take the next step and then the next. And when Jesus later says, “I am the way,” Isaiah is just pointing us towards that path, towards that covenant path. He’s pointing us towards a person. That is what Isaiah does. In the end, in chapter 35, what happens? The desert blooms. It is a day of restoration. Verse one, “The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them, and the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose.”

Hank Smith:                      01:48:21             That’s so great.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:48:23             We’ve probably all been to a desert place, and maybe even a desert heart, one that feels seared and where nothing is growing. But what’s the promise of the Lord that after Babylon, after destruction, after pride, after waiting, after fear, after consequences, after all of it, after all of this destruction, the wilderness and the solitary places shall be glad for them, and the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose, and then be strong, fear not. And the ransomed of the Lord shall return. This is the hope of Isaiah. God doesn’t promise there won’t be deserts. He promised the desert isn’t the end.

Hank Smith:                      01:49:14             Kathryn, this has been fantastic. Isaiah is tough to understand, but you’ve created a little excitement in me where I thought, I can do this. I can do this. There’s a couple of times you and I were reading together and I thought, I have no idea what that means, but I can. I don’t have to just say, well, I’ll skip it. No, the Lord wants me in this, I’m going to do the work. In your preparation, and you’ve been in church education for a long time, what are you hoping that we come away with? Let’s say I’m at home, I’m listening to this. John, I just found out that there’s a large group of women who quilt together and listen to the show.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:49:51             What? Will they invite me?

Hank Smith:                      01:49:54             So if I’m in that group or wherever I am sitting with my scriptures or I’m on a drive and I’m listening, Kathryn, what was your end goal for us? What are you hoping? How do you feel about all of this?

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:50:04             I’m hoping that we come back and take a full circle to Isaiah 12, and that we can say God is my salvation. I will trust and not be afraid. Maybe the question isn’t, do I know how the story’s going to turn out? Do I know what’s going to happen here or what’s going to happen here? Maybe it’s more, do I know how the story’s going to turn out because I know who is writing the story? Isaiah gives us reason to trust him. All of the listeners have had reasons why they can trust him, and maybe to remember those, maybe the reasons why we should trust him because the day of the Lord is coming, and I trust him, and I trust his heart. I know who is coming to wipe away my tears, to restore all that was right and to repair. That’s what I’m hoping through Isaiah, that we can really ask that question or have that understanding to trust and not be afraid.

Hank Smith:                      01:51:21             Sister Davis, thank you. Those UVU Institute students are so blessed.

Sis. Kathryn Davis:           01:51:27             I love them. Oh, how I love them. Maybe I’ll just echo the words of our prophet who has encouraged all of our young adults to be in Institute, the blessings that will come into their lives from Institute. If you are 18 to 35 or if you have a grandchild or a child that is that age, can I just invite you to come to institute, whether that’s stake Institute or UVU or wherever it is, come. Come and feel of his love, his great love for you.

Hank Smith:                      01:52:07             If you’re in Utah County, go see Sister Davis over at UVU and all of our friends there. Quite a few of our guests teach there. So Kathryn, thank you. I love what you said. Thank you. I don’t know the next chapter, but I trust the author. With that, we want to thank Sister Kathryn Davis for joining us on followHIM today. What a treat. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And every episode, we remember our founder. He would’ve loved this, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We are going to continue our study of Isaiah on followHIM. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we’d love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co, that’s followhim.co, to download your free copy today, and you’ll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our followHIM family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorensen.