Hank Smith:                      00:00:00             Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:00:04             All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection provided you continue faithful. Job had this kind of faith. He said, I know that my redeemer lives.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:19             Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with a man that is perfect and upright. One that feareth God and escheweth evil. His name is John Bytheway. John, I read that and I thought, is John Job? Do they really mean John, my servant John? This is Job chapter one verse eight. “There is none like him, perfect and a bright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil.” John, that is a perfect description of you.

John Bytheway:               00:00:55             That is a terrible description. My PR team has been working over time.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:02             John, we are privileged today to have with us Dr. Marcus Martins. Dr. Martins, what a treat. Welcome to followHIM.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:01:11             Well, thank you. Appreciate being with you. Thanks for the invitation.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:16             We are so excited. This is a real treat. The book of Job. You actually reference it often, John. You like the book of Job. Tell me why.

John Bytheway:               00:01:26             Well, so many things in the gospel make sense that we want everything to make sense. With Job, a lot of things happen that don’t make sense. He has to keep his faith and get through that, and we get to learn the same kind of lessons because sometimes things don’t make sense and the Lord doesn’t explain it either.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:48             Yeah. John, you wrote the book on this, literally. You wrote a book called When It Doesn’t Make Sense. I’m looking forward to hearing that perspective from the book you wrote. Dr. Martins, tell me about the book of Job. What are you hoping we walk away with?

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:02:02             Wait, wait, wait. We had a deal first with the doctor thing, right? If you keep calling me doctor, I’m going to start writing prescriptions here, okay?

Hank Smith:                      00:02:14             Brother Martins, that’s, you are our brother. You are our brother.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:02:20             For me, personally, Job, he’s my guy. He’s my companion. Over the years, being in some of those Gethsemane experiences in life, I often would read and reread the book of Job. It’s a book that brought me hope because it’s exactly how the book begins, where the Lord recognizes Job’s righteousness, and yet allows some very, very bad things to happen to him and rewards him. When you are in the middle of trials, very significant trials in those dark times and seasons where nothing seems to be working, where the heavens seem to be closed to you. You feel like your prayers are not going anywhere. Remembering Job is something that brings you that hope. The Lord referred to Job, talking to Joseph Smith. When Joseph Smith was in one of his worst times in his life, in Liberty Jail, the Lord said, you’re not like Job yet. Not yet as Job.

                                           00:03:38             Job, the very name, I know it’s associated with patience, but I tend to think of Job when I think of his name to be associated with hope. Better days always come to those who strive to exercise faith in God and in Jesus Christ and strive to be righteous. Even when they are not quite making it, but they’re striving. Better days will always come. For me, that’s one of the between the lines message in the book of Job. One of them.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:17             Yeah. I’m excited to talk about more of them. Both of you, I recently spoke at a conference at BYU called the Life After Loss Conference. After I spoke, I got to speak to some of the attendees one-on-one. The stories, the suffering that I heard, it was overwhelming to hear of hit after hit, loss after loss. And I thought, “How are you still doing this?” And Brother Martins, to hear you say, “Job is my companion.” I think at that Life After Loss conference, Job would go person to person. Let me hug you. I know where you are right now. I know what you’re feeling. John, I’m sure there are a lot of BYU Hawaii students who are thinking, Brother Martins. But there might be some listeners who are thinking, “I don’t know who this is. Can you tell us about him?”

John Bytheway:               00:05:11             Yes, I have a wonderful bio here. Brother, I’m not going to call him doctor anymore because all my prescriptions are filled. Brother Marcus H. Martins has a bachelor’s degree in business management, a master’s in organizational behavior, a PhD in the sociology of religion, race, and ethnic relations. He’s a native of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. He worked as a systems analyst and project manager for the Brazilian government, and as a freelance consultant before moving to the United States in 1990. He served as the chair of the Department of Religious Education at Brigham Young University, Hawaii, and teaches church organization and leadership, marriage, and occasionally managerial leadership, or he has taught those. He also taught at BYU Provo, Rick’s College, has lectured on a variety of topics throughout the United States, Brazil, Hong Kong, Japan, and Malaysia. His current research focuses on temple symbolism, the implications of the doctrines of the Restoration on daily religiosity, and the impact of globalization forces, technology, and immigration on the growth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Hank Smith:                      00:06:24             He does everything.

John Bytheway:               00:06:26             Yeah, basically. He wrote the book called Setting the Record Straight: Blacks and the Mormon Priesthood. Brother Martins joined the church in 1972, and in 1978 became the first Latter-day Saint with Black African ancestry to serve as a full-time missionary in the 20th century. Since then, he served as a mission president, twice as a bishop, six times as a stake high counselor, also as a temple officiator, and translator of the Book of Mormon. He married Mirian Abelin Barbosa. They have four children and seven grandchildren. We’re so glad to have you, Brother Martins. And tell us quickly, because some might recognize the name, because I did. Martins. Martins. What about brother? You said Elder Holland Helvécio, Helvécio, you say it.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:07:17             Yes. Helvécio Martins. Well, first, the biography we read was very good, but it’s old. Because now we have eight grandchildren. But yes, my parents were Helvécio and Rudá Martins. We joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1972. In 1978, then my father and I were among the first Black members of the church to receive the priesthood. Soon after that, I was called to serve as a full-time missionary. Served in the Brazil Sao Paulo North Mission. And I mentioned the mission in particular because in 2011, my wife and I were called to lead that same mission. It was a treat. My father also served as a mission president in the Brazil Fortaleza Mission, 1987 to 1990. Then he was called to serve as a General Authority Seventy in the old Second Quorum of the Seventy. Both my parents are deceased now, but as I traveled around, I find that his impact as having been the first Black man to serve as a general authority in the church, in fact, I believe he was the first to serve as a mission president as well, is still felt. He passed away almost 21 years ago. When I traveled internationally, people said, oh, you’re Martins from Brazil. Are you related to that? Yeah. On his funeral, Elder Neil Andersen, he spoke at my father’s funeral in Brazil, and I was there at that occasion in 2005. Elder Andersen, very kind of him. He referred to my father using that expression in Alma chapter 13 in the Book of Mormon. He said, yeah, he was one of those who were called and set apart in the premortal existence. I was very touched by that. I always admired my father, but to hear a general authority Seventy, who today is an Apostle, referring to my father like that was something very dear to me. So yes, was a great man.

John Bytheway:               00:09:35             Brother Martins, when you were talking about your father and what Elder Andersen said at his funeral, I thought, oh, that reminds me of his book that Brother Martins wrote is called The Priesthood: Earthly Symbols and Heavenly Realities. That was just last year, right?

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:09:52             Correct. Came out last year, 2025.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:56             I hadn’t read that yet. I’m excited to pick that up. Let’s jump into the book of Job. I’m going to read from the Come, Follow Me manual. The lesson this week is called Yet Will I Trust in Him. “It’s natural to wonder why bad things happen to good people, or for that matter, why good things happen to bad people. Why would God who is just allow that? The book of Job explores questions like these. Job was one of those good people to whom a lot of bad things happened. Because of Job’s trials, his friends wondered if he really was good after all. Job asserted his own righteousness and wondered if God really is just after all. But despite his suffering and wondering, Job maintained his integrity and faith in Jesus Christ. In the book of Job, faith is questioned and tested, but never completely abandoned. That doesn’t mean all the questions are answered, but the book of Job teaches that until they are answered, questions can coexist with faith. And regardless of what happens in the meantime, we can say of the Lord, yet will I trust in him.” That is beautiful. I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening today who are feeling like they are treading water in difficulty and pain. Today is going to be a day of respite. With that, Brother Martins, where do you want to start? Do you just open up the book of Job?

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:11:26             Here’s the description. A man who is amazingly wealthy with a great family and devout. Not only devout for himself, but he would perform some of the sacrifices prescribing the law of Moses on behalf of his children. Saying maybe, maybe they could have committed some sin. I’m going to offer this sacrifice for them. You don’t get any more righteous than that. When I see the description here, you know, it said 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels. This guy was a, was it a trader? 3,000 camels. Job had 500. 500 she asses. Seven sons. Three daughters. What was he? Well, sure. Bible scholars have been speculating for decades, centuries, or maybe he was some kind of a king. I look at that, I said, look, can we imagine the depth of sadness, desperation perhaps. In one day. Not only to lose all of that, but you lose the entire children, all his posterity.

                                           00:12:49             In one day, it’s mind numbing. After all this destruction and the loss of his posterity, he says, “The Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” I read this passage. I told you earlier that Job is kind of my companion. I quoted this saying at my father’s funeral in May of 2005. That’s what I felt like is what the Lord gave, because it had been a very traumatic experience for us. My wife and I went to Brazil for my in-laws’ 50th wedding anniversary. My mother-in-law passed away suddenly before we reached Brazil. Then nine days after her passing, my father also passed away suddenly. Both sudden deaths. Neither of them was ill or anything. What gave me a little bit of comfort, a little bit, not complete comfort, was, I said, look, here’s how Job reacted when he lost everything. He said, “The Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” And I thought, I have to muster every little bit, every little ounce of faith that I have and say the same thing. So I quoted that on my father’s funeral.

John Bytheway:               00:14:25             The book of Job is 42 chapters to wrestle with what happens in six verses. He loses everything in six verses, and the next 42 chapters are, How do I deal with this? What do others think of me because this happened? How do I relate to God because of this? But boy, those little things that Job says, like you just said, “The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” Wow, what compressed wisdom right there in just one verse.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:15:02             I started with that, the description of his riches and his family. Because, right now, we have brothers and sisters throughout the world and friends throughout the world in terrible pain. Not just those who are facing the consequences of wars, but those who are facing the trials of life and the tribulations of life. Why is this happening? Or maybe, like Job initially says, mentions that, cursing the day they were born. So why was I born? And it could be for, because of physical ailments or mental health or circumstances of life, unemployment, or broken relationships, all kinds of trials and vicissitudes of life, and people are suffering. I used to tell my students in my old Church Organization and Leadership class at BYU Hawaii, I used to tell them, look, when you serve in leadership in the church, remember, do not be fooled by the smiling faces you see when you get to the meeting house on Sunday morning.

                                           00:16:30             Because behind those smiling faces, there could be great storms brewing. You never know when you will be somebody who will either bring a little balm to soothe that person. Or you could say something and be like those so-called friends of Job and put your finger in the wound even more. That’s something that I always had in my mind or especially when I was serving as a bishop, you know? I want to avoid doing that. Unfortunately, sometimes I did not make it. And I said things or I did things in a way that didn’t make matters easier for people. But thank goodness the Lord was in charge. Our hearts go out to people who are suffering everywhere. Remember our friend, Job, on this and say, look, you don’t need to lose your faith, lose your righteousness, lose your discipleship in Christ because of suffering. Better days will come.

Hank Smith:                      00:17:43             I recently had a chance to meet Troy Russell. I bet both of you remember Elder Holland spoke about him in general conference when he spoke about Troy accidentally backing over his nine-year-old son. How that son Austin passed away. What I didn’t know when I talked to Troy was that was not the end of their difficulties. Just a while later, his wife, Deedra, was in a head-on collision with a drunk driver driving the wrong way on the freeway. During surgery to help her, doctors actually punctured her bowel, giving her now years of difficulty and problem that she is still dealing with to this day. I’m quoting from now a further Elder Holland talk where he talked again about this incredible family. Here they are, faithful. Definitely have had their rough times. They’ve had dark days offering forgiveness to the driver, but still having to day in and day out deal with medical problems.

                                           00:18:59             And then of course, the grief of the son that they lost. This is something Elder Holland said right at the end of this devotional. He says, “In moments of suffering and pain, the temptation may be to call out, why me? Why us? Why again? Or does God really care about me?” Though Elder Holland has never heard the Russells ask those questions, they would not be among the first to do so. The prophet Joseph Smith asked, “O, God, where art thou?” And even the Savior, while atoning for the sins of the world, wondered if he had been forsaken. Elder Holland continues, Be still and know that I am God. So when you are being hammered on the anvil of adversity, when your soul is being refined with severe lessons that perhaps can be learned in no other way, don’t cut and run. Don’t jump ship. Don’t shake your fist at your bishop or your mission president or God.

                                           00:19:58             Please stay with the only help and strength that can aid you in that painful time. When you stumble in the race of life, don’t crawl away from the very physician who is unfailingly there to treat your injuries, lift you to your feet and help you finish the course. This is where faith must truly mean something or it is not faith at all. As you get to know people, like you said, Brother Martins, you see that they’re struggling in ways you did not understand. I frequently joke around that Latter-day Saints like to get together a couple of times a week to lie to each other about how they’re doing. We say, How are you? Oh, I’m good. How are you? I’m great. Thank you. Maybe saying, actually, I’m hurting. Actually, things are really hard right now.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:20:47             That’s where my saying to my students that don’t be fooled by the smiling faces because sometimes there are storms brewing behind them. If I didn’t have the Savior in my life, then I would be miserable. Life would be unbearable, really. But the fact that we know that there is a God, and we know that tomorrow he can, through his power, matchless power, make our situation change almost overnight. That leads some of us who say, I’m fine. Isn’t that what the Savior said to Joseph Smith? Look, yeah, you are in a bad situation here, but you’re not like Job yet. Your situation’s not as bad as Jobs.

Hank Smith:                      00:21:38             That’s got to be pretty bad if the Lord himself is saying, Hey, look, it’s not as bad as Job. Job’s going. I’m the example. I’m the one.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:21:50             Later, he goes even further. So yeah, the Son of man went beneath all these things. Art thou greater than he?

Hank Smith:                      00:22:00             Brother Martins, as I’ve taught the Bible, occasionally a student will ask something about why are God and Satan having this conversation in the beginning of Job? How do we address that? This story’s a bit of a different genre, if I understand that correctly.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:22:18             Yes. That’s something that puzzles people. I keep thinking when we consider the origin of the book of Job, would that have been literally the Father or the Savior or Jehovah and Satan? Or would it have been somebody speaking in their name? I used to remind my students, look, be very cognizant and say of this expression in the name of Jesus Christ. You’re acting in his name means you’re acting on His behalf, in His place.

                                           00:23:04             Until we get more information about the origin of this book, then I would not venture to speculate. We don’t know enough about that realm where God lives and moves. We don’t know enough about the hierarchy, the organizational structure. What is a cherubim? What is a seraphine? What are archangels? What are powers? What are dominions? What are all these things? Are these all callings? Who will occupy those callings? There isn’t a lot yet. But the work of the book, stepping back, it is a literary work. Poetic. I wonder if there is some kind of metaphor going on here. I tend not to worry too much about the dialogue. How could God be talking to Satan? I don’t worry too much about it. We don’t know enough to really focus on that. So I prefer to focus on, okay, let’s see what happens later and what the lessons are for discipleship.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:08             It’s a wisdom literature, dramatic poetry. One author, I don’t know if either of you have heard of him. His name is Victor Hugo. He’s written some good stuff. He said that the book of Job is perhaps the greatest masterpiece of the human mind. That’s quite an endorsement from quite an author. What happens to Job next? I mean, just chapter one, the loss is unbelievable and it’s so fast, like you said.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:24:36             Well, then we have the loss and then we have the health. This is where a number of our brothers and sisters around the world face. I haven’t lost my home. I haven’t lost my family. But boy, oh boy, I have this chronic disease and I’m in pain constantly. Or I have a, perhaps a greater challenge to see a loved one facing those challenges. Can you imagine the loss of somebody who has a dear spouse suffering from Alzheimer’s that no longer recognizes you? There’s so much in terms of pain that does not even rise to the level of I’ve been afflicted with a disease. No. I’m just looking at somebody very close to me that I love facing something that is hurting me deeply. Even here, Job does not murmur. He doesn’t lose his integrity. The fact that it says here the Lord himself says still he holdeth fast his integrity.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:57             We have the loss of wealth, the loss of loved ones, now the loss of health. And then it looks like his wife even says,

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:26:08             “Curse God and die.”

Hank Smith:                      00:26:09             Curse God and die. Like give up.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:26:12             His reply is something that may be a statement that a lot of us may look at it and say, “Would I be able to say that?” When he says, “What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God? And shall we not receive evil?” How many of us seriously, honestly say, “If I received so many blessings, why not receive some trials now?” That’s okay. It’s easy to theorize, hypothesize about it, but if you are in the actual situation, the account of this season in Job’s life is so impactful that Bible scholars, you know, for the longest time have been saying, “Well, no, this is probably a work of fiction.” It cannot be that somebody would be like that. But thank goodness for the restoration of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Because again, we cannot read the book of Job without remembering what the Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith.

                                           00:27:20             You know, we have to go back and say, look, the Savior, the Lord referred to Job. If he referred to Job, it doesn’t matter if this is a work of poetry here. The story is true. The personage is true. He did exist. And he did go through tremendous, tremendous trials and still maintained his integrity, still maintained his faith. Still kept his discipleship in Jesus Christ. To the point where later he even bears testimony. He says, Even if He slays me, though he will slay me, yet I will trust Him.

John Bytheway:               00:28:08             I love that. The Lord said that to the prophet Joseph Smith, “Thou art not yet as Job. Thy friends do stand by thee.” That’s where, like you just said, Brother Martins, at first, his friends are excellent. They just sit with Him. There’s such comfort for somebody to say, I’m here. Then they start trying to explain it, and that’s when everything goes south.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:28:33             Then they open their mouth.

John Bytheway:               00:28:35             Then they open their mouths and, well, maybe God’s doing this, or maybe God’s doing this, or maybe God’s doing this. When the Lord says to Joseph, Thy friends do stand by thee, you see what a nice thing it is to have friends when you’re suffering. Somebody that doesn’t try to explain it, but can just be with you.

Hank Smith:                      00:28:52             Let’s talk about that for a minute. What is it about us as children of God? We need each other all the time, but especially in these difficult times, the Lord has commanded us. Mourn with those who mourn. Comfort those who stand in need of comfort. Bear each other’s burdens. In all your experience, Brother Martins, this is crucial in every aspect of life is having a circle, a support system.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:29:21             That’s true. Either spouse or parents or close, but very good, well-grounded friends, church leaders who are patient, well-versed in the scriptures, relief society leaders, young women’s leaders, quorum presidencies, members of bishoprics or stake presidencies, even stake high counselors. Sometimes we would have to sit down with people and minister to them the importance of having someone with us. Was demonstrated by the Savior himself. Often, the Savior would retire to a mountain, to a hill, to pray by himself, but he would not stay there. He would come back to be with his apostles, with the disciples and other believers. At the time of his greatest trial in Gethsemane, when mortal assistance was not available, because remember, he took Peter, James and John with him to Gethsemane. Now, here is the creator of worlds without number, the God of Israel, the God of the whole earth, the great Jehovah, and he took three of his trusted apostles with him.

                                           00:30:51             I don’t find fault in Peter, James and John. When they got there, they were beat and they fell asleep. We probably would have fallen asleep as well. And then, when mortal help was not available, what happened? A messenger came. If the Savior of the world, a member of the Godhead, would not face his greatest trial alone, why would we? We have to face our trials, yes, but never alone. When mortal help is not available, heavenly assistance will come. No, I’m not saying that Moroni is going to show up in your living room. But the Lord will send someone. I remember an experience I had. Well, one afternoon, I got a phone call from my home teacher. Some of us here remember home teachers. “Hey, Marcus, are you okay?” I said, “I’m fine.” So he was a, also a fellow professor at BYU Hawaii. He was in computer science, and I was in religion. “No, no, no. I just, I was here in my office and I just thought of you and felt like calling you.” I said, “Oh thanks.” Stuart his name said, “oh thanks, Stuart.” You know, everything’s fine. Oh, thank you very much. The next day, the trial came.

                                           00:32:22             He was 24 hours or a little more than 24 hours ahead of time. I knew at that moment as, look, I can count on my home teacher for this. He may not be an angel from high, but it would be somebody who has the means, brother and a sister who can come to you and say, “Can I be of service to you? Can I be any help?” And the person would say, you know, can you just sit down and pray with me? Or can you just sit down and listen to me? Even your bishops, even your stake presidents need some ministry. I’ve served as a bishop twice. I know how it is. The preoccupations, the concerns, the worries, the fear of making a mistake. None of us is exempt of the need to sit down and talk to somebody and listen to somebody and feel that comfort that comes through the word of the Lord, through somebody who will give us that peace that comes. It’s what Jacob in the Book of Mormon called the word that heals the wounded soul. We all need that.

Hank Smith:                      00:33:46             We’ve been talking about Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail. I want to read you something that he said. He writes a series of letters that end up as sections 121, 122, and 123, but there’s portions of those letters that didn’t make it into those sections. I want to read you a portion of this. He says, “We received some letters last evening, one from Emma, one from Don Carlos, and one from Bishop Partridge. All breathing a kind and consoling spirit. We had been a long time without information, and when we read those letters, they were to our souls as the gentle air is refreshing. Those who have not been enclosed in the walls of a prison without cause or provocation can have but little idea.”

                                           00:34:39             Listen to this, “how sweet the voice of a friend is. One token of friendship from any source whatever awakens and calls into action every sympathetic feeling.” Now listen to this. He says, “Friendship brings up in an instant everything that is past. It seizes the present with a vivacity of lightning. It grasps after the future with the fierceness of a tiger, and it retrogrades from one thing to another until finally all enmity, malice, hatred, and past differences, misunderstandings and mismanagements be slain victims at the feet of hope.” That’s an incredible way of describing what a friend can do.

John Bytheway:               00:35:25             Yeah. One of my favorite things that President Spencer W. Kimball ever said, which we’ve probably quoted dozens of times on followHIM, is “God does love us and He watches over us, but it is usually through another person that He meets our needs.” The opportunity we have to be that other person. I remember when a sister came up to me and she showed me her phone. And she said every day I get this reminder that she had set up on her phone, Who needs me today? Then she would reach out in some way. Is there anyone who needs me today? There’s someone. Who is it? And she can try to be that other person President Kimball talked about.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:11             It says in verse 11, They mourn with him and comfort him. They weep with him. Look at verse 13. “They sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights. They didn’t speak a word unto him, for they saw that his grief was very great.” Just that lesson right there, who needs me? Brother Martins, to say there’s sometimes we forget. Well, of course the bishop doesn’t need help. He’s the bishop. Right? Of course the stake president doesn’t need help. He’s the stake president. They’re the ones out doing the helping, but every single person, especially those suffering tragedy, may need us to go and be there. Just listen. I like how you say that. Thank you for listening. I think you said to your friend.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:37:08             I have a quote from President John Taylor and he was referring to trials. And he quotes the Prophet Joseph Smith. This was a talk he gave in March 1879. President John Taylor said this, “Did you ever know it is necessary that we should be tried in all things? If you do not know, you will find it out before you get through. And we are not through quite yet. In this connection,” President Taylor continues. “I am reminded of what I heard the Prophet Joseph say, speaking more particularly with reference to the Twelve. He says, “The Lord will feel after your heartstrings and will wrench them and twist them around. You will have to learn to rely upon God and upon God alone.” President Taylor continues. “Has he done it? I think he has pretty thoroughly. The prophet himself was tried about as much as anybody I know of.

                                           00:38:26             His brother, Hyrum, had his full share. And the Twelve also have been tried as much as any man I know of. He had a great deal more than you know anything about.” John Taylor continues. He quoted the prophet Joseph Smith. He furthermore said, “If God could in any other way more keenly have tried Abraham, then by calling it upon him to offer up his son Isaac, he would have done it.” And as I have said, Jesus himself sweat great drops of blood and in the agony of his suffering cried out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? And why is it thus? We’re told by one of old, for it became him for whom all things and by whom all things in bringing many unto glory to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.” That’s Hebrews chapter two. For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like we are yet without sin.

                                           00:39:52             President Taylor continues then. “Oh, what a happy thing it would be if we could follow his footsteps in that particular.” Well, he was referring to the Twelve, but said that, yeah, the Lord will feel after your very heartstrings, wrench them, and twist them. I said, wow. I can only imagine what our prophets and revelators go through. I, again, in my classes, I used to tell the students, look, don’t envy those men who sit on those red chairs. And I used to say the tabernacle in the conference center. Don’t envy them. You would not want to have the life they have. You know how many birthdays, how many baptisms they may have missed. You don’t know how many times things may have happened in their lives that were being tremendous trials.

John Bytheway:               00:40:51             I remember once that Elder David A. Bednar said that the word test appears nowhere in the standard works. He said, instead, we see the word try or prove or examine. Everything you read from John Taylor there was talking about being tried and proven because it shows God and it shows you what you are. What was the famous line about Abraham? Was it President Hugh B. Brown, Hank, that said maybe Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham? I don’t want to learn those lessons, you know? To be examined and tried and proved. And I love what you keep going back to, Brother Martins. Good things are coming.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:41:37             Well, going back to what you just said, Brother John, aren’t we learning something about ourselves pretty much every day? It may not be the same magnitude and intensity of Abraham or Job, but we are learning. In fact, when you talk about Abraham, I often, during my live webcast, where I don’t do those as often anymore. When people would say, oh, gee, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to survive if I had been tested like Abraham. And I said, You have been. Because, and I was speaking with people that I knew personally in Brazil or in Portugal. I said, “Did you put a daughter or a son upon the altar and let them go for 18 or 24 months? That’s an Abrahamic sacrifice there. We have been making those sacrifices. Not the same intensity, not the same magnitude, but we have been making those sacrifices.

                                           00:42:46             Oh, yes, we have. And we are learning something about ourselves in the process. Those of you who say, Oh, oh, gee, I already failed on that one then because Brother Martins, I’m hearing you say that. And I, now I remember something that happened and I failed. Look, remember, there was an atonement. This is a conversation I’ve had with some of my former missionaries because over the years, some of them have been calling me, President, I want to apologize because when I was on the mission though, I know that I, means that I didn’t… I tell them, Look, if you today recognize that some things that happened on your mission were not up to specs, you have learned something from your mission. Those of you, oh, I did not serve a mission. I didn’t want to serve a mission. Okay. The mission is life now. It could be marriage or I don’t have a spouse.

                                           00:43:49             So it’s just you facing life by yourself with the assistance of friends and ministers. But facing it. That’s your mission in life. And it includes education. It includes professions. It includes relationships. It includes all kinds of things. Be faithful in those things. And you will have your blessings and you will learn something about yourself. So if we can recognize that something in the past didn’t go as well as you could have done it, you have learned your lesson. Now, apply that lesson in the future. There is hope. Because of Jesus Christ, we have hope. That’s direct consequence of the atonement.

John Bytheway:               00:44:39             Amen.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:40             I noticed when Job’s three friends heard of this evil, they came. I love that. They heard it and they were like, I got to go. Then they made an appointment together. Let’s all go together. We’re going to go mourn with him.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:44:54             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:55             John, I’ve told this story before. When my father passed away, I got a phone call from my friend, Alex Baugh, who said, Hey, I’ll be there this afternoon. And I thought, Wait, what? And he showed up at my house. He had popcorn and a couple other treats and some things for my kids. He said, “Well, Hank, I was on my way home.” And I knew that wasn’t true because I know he lives north of BYU.

John Bytheway:               00:45:21             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:45:21             And I live south of BYU. I said, “Alex, you weren’t on your way home.” He said, “Oh, I, sometimes I go this way.” Yeah. He said, “I was on my way home and I just wanted to come by and see you.” And that meant so much to me that he would just show up at my house. And I’ve had others do that as well. I wanted to read something. This is from Elder David Buckner. This is the General Conference, October of 24. He said something about visiting Africa, and then he talked about what happens in our chapels. He said, “On a recent visit with my family to the West African country of Ghana, I was enamored with a local custom. Upon arriving at a church or home, we were greeted with the words, You are welcome. When food was served, our host would announce, You are invited. These simple greetings were extended with purpose and intentionality. You are welcome. You are invited. We place similar sacred declarations on our meeting house doors.

                                           00:46:24             But the sign visitors welcome is not enough. Do we warmly welcome all who come through the doors? Brothers and sisters, it is not enough to just sit in the pews. We must heed the Savior’s call to build higher and holier relationships with all of God’s children. We must live our faith. My father often reminded me that simply sitting in a pew on Sunday doesn’t make you a good Christian any more than sleeping in a garage makes you a car. He says, we need each other. We need to uplift and edify each other. We need to go to each other, shake hands, welcome each other. You belong here. In a contentious and divided world, the Savior wants us to be unifiers. I love the idea that someone walks into one of our chapels and is met with, You are welcome. You are invited. Come sit with me. Come sit with us.” I think that’s beautiful. Well, I think we could spend the rest of the time here on talking about friendship. It is a grand principle, Joseph Smith called it. But let’s keep going. Brother Martins, what happens next to Job?

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:47:38             Now, we have the next section in the book of Job are Job’s friends who then opened their mouths. So far, they had been there sitting down, praying and pondering with him, bemoaning his fate. But then they open their mouths. When they open their mouths, they’re going to try to justify what’s happening with Job by accusing him of doing something wrong. They said, He must have done something wrong. And he said, No, no, I’m a righteous man. Uh-huh. That’s your problem. For example, in Job chapter four, and it’s interesting when this Eliphaz, the first friend, or maybe he’s the oldest, because he’s the one who’s speaking first. I mean, Job chapter four, beginning of verse three, and he starts describing Job’s influence, Job’s service, and says, “Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.” Good. “Thy words have upholden him that was falling.

                                           00:48:47             And thou has strengthened the feeble knees.” Very good. “But now it has come upon thee and thou faintest. It toucheth thee and thou art troubled.” Because remember, Job just mentioned that, I’m cursing the day I was born. He said, okay, now you’re fainting, you are troubled. Then things take a turn for the worst here. Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways? Remember, I pray thee, whoever perished being innocent? where were the righteous cut off? In other words, Job, you must have done something really bad. Yeah, you did all these things. You were a good influence and so on. But you have this confidence, this hope, the uprightness of your ways. You’re too proud. If I’m reading this, okay, you think you’re too good. Now God is showing you that you’re not that good.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:49             Thank you for your pep talk. That’s rough.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:49:54             When you look at the poetry here, there are many nuggets here that are very beautiful words and so on. But he keeps going back to, look, serves you right. But they are not bad men. When the Lord speaks about these men later on, he doesn’t necessarily call them weak. They just said, look, they’re not thinking straight. Their words are not good. But there are nuggets of wisdom here. I’m looking Job chapter five, for example, beginning of verse seven, Job chapter five, verse seven. Yet man is born unto trouble as the sparks fly upward. I would seek unto God. And unto God will I commit my cause. Which or who does great things and unsearchable, marvelous things without number. That’s beautiful. Who giveth rain upon the earth and sendeth waters upon the fields to set up on high those that are low. That those which mourn may be exalted to safety.

                                           00:51:05             There are some things that he say that was just very beautiful. Continue, for example, he talks about what God does for the weak. And then it goes back to the righteous, beginning chapter five, beginning now in verse 15. But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth and from the hand of the mighty. So the poor hath hope and iniquity stoppeth her mouth. Behold, happy is the man whom God corrected. Therefore, despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty. Okay. Now, again, beautiful words. But again, he’s going back to happy is the man whom God corrected. He’s saying, look, it’s you, Job. It’s you. You’re being corrected. Despise not the chastening of the Almighty, you’re being chastened. This is a chastisement. Beautiful words. Okay? If you take them and put in a sacrament meeting talk, it’s going to be really nice. They’re being interspersed there with some stuff that he’s throwing at Job’s face.

Hank Smith:                      00:52:09             What did Elder Holland once say? Sometimes someone’s drowning and we row our boat over and beat him with one of the oars.

John Bytheway:               00:52:19             I like what you had said, Brother Martins. They were trying to reason this out. You read verse seven of Job four. Whoever perished being innocent or where were the righteous cut off? You guys are the PhDs. There’s something called the law of retribution. If you do right, you’ll be blessed. If you don’t, you’ll be cursed. But sometimes we think that comes immediately. I remember Elder Christofferson talking about the cosmic vending machine. If I do this, something good comes out. They’re looking at life wrong like a cosmic vending machine and saying, Job, you must have done something wrong or this wouldn’t be happening, but there is an eventually in there somewhere. Things will turn out someday in the end, maybe in the next life even, you know? Because they’re trying to make sense of it right now, this, like a cosmic vending machine.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:53:16             Isn’t that the reasoning that led to those pseudo explanations for the introduction of the priesthood being in the 19th century? If they cannot have the priesthood, there must be some reason. And if we cannot find a reason here, then it must have been something they did in the preexistence. That’s the reasoning of Eliphaz right there, Job’s first friend. And then that led to, well, what would have that been? Then somebody speculated, wow. If you’re being denied certain privilege, it must be that. Well, you’re not that faithful then. How about the person prays? The person believes in God. Oh, believe now, but did not believe then. Even though we know very little about the pre-existence because we don’t remember. So we only know what we find in the doctrine and teachings of prophets, but we don’t remember who we were, what we did or what anybody else did.

                                           00:54:21             We know that, oh, yeah, there was a council in heaven. We were there as spirits. Heavenly Father’s plan was presented. The Savior was chosen. We received the preordinations, but we don’t know a whole lot more. I’m very cautious with this, but I’m not pointing fingers here because for a number of years, I believed in those things. I taught those ideas until the time when I started choosing. So wait a minute, some of these things don’t make sense. That led me right to that book, John, that you mentioned. Then today with the resource we have in the church website, like the race and the priesthood essay. So, oh, yeah, my book is peanuts compared to what we have in the church website. But I look at this and sort of, yeah. Well, if this is happening with you, it must be something you did. And if you didn’t do it in this life, then you did in the previous life. You did it in the premortal realm. It’s a clear example of Eliphaz’s logic here. If this is happening with you, you must be wrong.

Hank Smith:                      00:55:29             What a great application.

John Bytheway:               00:55:30             The logic of Eliphaz. That persisted for a long time. I think that idea that you must have done something. Nobody in the world tells this story better than Hank Smith, but John chapter nine, what happens? Walk out of the temple. Here’s a man born blind. Who did sin? Him or his parents that he was born blind? Somebody has got to sin if there’s a trial here. And they still have that mindset. What’s Jesus’s answer? Neither did he sin or his parents, but that the works of God could be made manifest in him. I don’t know, you tell it better than I do, Hank. What happens?

Hank Smith:                      00:56:10             We’ve been doing this a long time because my scriptures, I just opened to John nine just going, okay, I wonder if I’ll get a chance to share this.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:56:18             Oh, okay.

John Bytheway:               00:56:20             Do it.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:21             He knew exactly where I was headed. It’s a pervasive doctrine, isn’t it? If something’s wrong, it must be the result of sin. And Jesus seems to say, “No, no, no. Don’t think that way at all.” Do you notice, John, at the end of that chapter, when the Pharisees and the blind man or the man who was formerly blind, they’re going back and forth and they have nothing to say. They can’t outwit him. All they say is, “You were born in sin and you were trying to teach us.” It’s almost like a, what do we, John, what word is it, that you would say, You know what? I can end all discussion by just saying this thing.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:56:59             Well, it’s the old, “How dare you?”

Hank Smith:                      00:57:03             Yeah. When I don’t know what to say, I can just say, Well, you obviously are a terrible person because look what happened to you. And I can just cancel everything you say because of this thing you have in your life that’s obviously a result of sin. Brother Martins, that example you gave of the priesthood ban and Elephaz here, I think that is a beautiful application where for some reason as human beings, we don’t like silence on something. We want an answer, so we just kind of make up an answer rather than letting it be silent.

John Bytheway:               00:57:34             This is Luke 13. “There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all Galileans because they suffered such things. I tell you nay, but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those 18 upon the tower in Siloam fell and slew them. Think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you nay. But except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” That is still going on, this idea that, oh, if that tower fell in Siloam, they must have been sinners. And Jesus is still dealing with it over and over again. I love what you said, Brother Martins. Those church leaders that are sitting up there in the red chairs, sometimes you hear about their trials losing spouses and things, but they’re not immune to having all sorts of things happen to them too.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       00:58:36             That’s true. I recall an interview with President Russell M. Nelson. He took the time to chat with extending calling and only later found out that one of his daughters had passed away that very day. And yet there he was giving them attention and love like nothing had happened. And so man, what a terrible thing was happening inside of him. Yet there he was fulfilling his duty. Things happen in their lives. We remember Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Elder Neal A. Maxwell particularly who made it very public, his journey with cancer. And I said, yeah, I remember him talking about, I said, yeah, those terrifying moments in the middle of the night. They know. They know what’s going on because they feel it themselves.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:33             I’m going to try better to not be like Eliphaz here and try to give reasons that I have no idea.

John Bytheway:               00:59:42             Yeah. Sometimes it can be hurtful to say, well, maybe God needed them to try to come up with something. No, just put an arm around and be quiet. The first seven days, Job’s friends were awesome.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:57             I think, John, we can say hurtful things. Or I remember once when a young father died and someone said, “Well, he’s needed for a greater work.” And the children thought, “Aren’t I an important work? Isn’t being my dad an important work?” I think you’re both right. Don’t speculate on why something happened. Just be there.

John Bytheway:               01:00:18             Would any of us say, You know, Abinadi, if you’d only had more faith.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       01:00:23             Never heard that one.

John Bytheway:               01:00:25             Yeah. I mean, that’s a great example. Abinadi did everything right and still suffered. We love Abinadi, but he did everything right and suffered a horrible death.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       01:00:36             Well, it could be that people were expecting, well, since he was a prophet, he would be like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you know, and so he would be preserved from the flames. I remember one particular season in my life in which I was going through a season of great trials. It was some 30 years ago. And I remember reading and rereading and rereading the book of Job. I read countless times. I lost count how many times I read the entire book. What caught my attention was precisely something you just mentioned. I said, when the Lord finally speaks to Job, he did not explain why those things happened. I remember here an article Brother John Welch wrote, about the book of Job. It said yeah, it’s like a instruction that the Lord gives where he goes through talking about his creations and his works and so on, and asking Job, “Where were you when I was doing this and this and that?” But does not explain, which means that there are some things that even if we were to speak with the Lord face-to-face in this life, we would still not have answers. Like Job did not have an answer. There are probably things that we will only find out on the other side of the veil. Maybe when we can see things with a true, perfect, eternal perspective.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:13             When we try to create answers where there are none, we can do more harm because when we say something like Elephaz says, which is, “Oh, you must have done something wrong.” Well, if a child hears that and something wrong happens in their life, their first question is, “Well, what did I do wrong?” Even still, Latter-day Saints, including me, will have something happen. “What did I do wrong? Why would you punish me this way?” And the Lord, I think, today, would do what he did in John chapter nine. No, nobody sinned. Do all of his friends do this?

Dr. Marcus Martins:       01:02:48             Well, unfortunately, yeah, all three, and then the fourth one shows up at the end. Said yeah, all of them are going through this accusations and the justifications. They were united in this mindset that I said, look, you know, Job, it has to be your fault because God will not allow this to happen to a righteous man.

Hank Smith:                      01:03:17             Maybe it’s their own fears as well sometimes when we think that. It’s not going to happen to me because I’m righteous, right? So by claiming that you’re not, I feel a little bit more secure in my own future.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       01:03:28             I suppose this would be at a point in which we will have been sufficiently taught on the other side of the veil and will have a, that perfect eternal perspective on things. We will find out that we could not have been more blessed if those things had not happened. Our journey towards exaltation would not have been better or more productive or more effective. That’s what we’re going to acknowledge someday. There are things happening here that the Lord simply cannot explain to us. And the book of Job is about this. Things happen. God appears and does not explain.

Hank Smith:                      01:04:13             Brother Martin, you think like President Uchtdorf. He says, “Often, the deep valleys of our present will be understood only by looking back on them from the mountains of future experience. Often, we can’t see the Lord’s hand in our lives until long after trials have passed.” And then the third often. “Often, the most difficult times of our lives are essential to forming the foundation of our character and paving the way to future opportunity, understanding, and happiness.” So one day you will see, but I think you’re right. The Lord almost can’t show you now. You wouldn’t understand. From your perspective, you absolutely wouldn’t understand it.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       01:05:00             That brings to mind also a testimony from the Prophet Joseph Smith where he said, “All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty, I have seen it.” I love these words, especially for those brothers and sisters now and friends who are watching us or listening to us. All your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful, and observe how incisive Joseph is. He says, “By the vision of the Almighty, I have seen it.” Those words, this brings tremendous, tremendous comfort. What we hear as far as words of testimony from Job, he had this kind of faith. He said, I know that my redeemer lives. In my flesh, I will stand before him.

John Bytheway:               01:06:06             I like this idea of three sights. There’s hindsight, there’s insight, and there’s foresight. Our trials, we can look back with great hindsight. The spirit of the Lord gives us insight and also what we’re learning can give us foresight for things that are ahead. There was a sister in our ward who passed recently who had made literally hundreds of quilts and sent them all around the world. People who would never know her name. Wendie Blatnick made these quilts for hundreds of people. Loved making quilts and served people. And I was filling in for the speaker that Brother Blatnick really wanted. But I love this poem. I first heard it from Elder Neal A. Maxwell. You kind of have to think about if you’ve ever seen the backside of a needlepoint, how differently it looks than the front because there’s stitches going crossways and knots and everything.

                                           01:07:07             So the poem is like this, “My life is but a weaving between my God and me. I do not choose the colors. He worketh steadily. Oftentimes, he weaveth sorrow and I in foolish pride forget he sees the upper and I the underside. Not till the loom is silent and the shuttle cease to fly.” Now that’s next life. “Not till the loom is silent and the shuttle cease to fly. Will God unroll the canvas and explain the reasons why the dark threads are as needful in the skillful weaver’s hands as the threads of gold and silver in the pattern he has planned.” In this life, God is not always a God of explanations. He doesn’t tell us why. I love what you said, Brother Martins. He didn’t tell Job. He said, “Were you there when I created everything?” And he never explained why. He just said, “Were you there?” And demonstrated his grandeur and majesty like you said. But one day, we’ll get those explanations.

Hank Smith:                      01:08:12             Coming up in part two.

Dr. Marcus Martins:       01:08:15             Now, our brothers and sisters around us may not understand. I avoid when I talk to people. I know how you’re feeling. No, I don’t. I have no idea. Even if I, oh, but, oh, you lost your father. I lost my father too. I know what you must be feeling. No, I don’t know what you must be feeling because you’re not me. Your experience is different. But He knows what you’re feeling.