John Bytheway:               00:00:01             Welcome to part two with Dr. Aaron Schade, Exodus 19 to 34.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:07             John, I feel for people out there who maybe are a little bit like me and don’t do this very well. And it can’t be about guilt and I better do something on the Sabbath. It’s gotta be about a relationship. Aaron, I really liked what you said. It’s not about what you don’t do, it’s about what you create. You can create relationships on the Sabbath. You can create goodness and kindness and service and help and love.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:00:37             And that can be tailored to each of our personal experiences. It’s so easy to point the finger at somebody else and just say, man, you’re just, I can’t believe you’re doing that on the Sabbath. When in reality, maybe that’s the best situation for me because I am trying to create a relationship with an individual that may not think like me, that may not have the same mentality about the Sabbath of me. But it doesn’t mean that we can’t do something in the spirit of love to create those relationships in ways that, again, are personalized to our individual experiences.

John Bytheway:               00:01:10             Yeah. I love the connection you made between when we think of work, we think of work labor like being out there with a shovel or something, but God’s work is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of all of us and we can, like what you guys are saying, assist in that work with each other with relationships, with ministering. That is work, but it’s God’s work.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:01:35             And it’s something that exalts, it’s something that inspires. It’s exhausting, but it’s something that brings us closer to God and those with whom we serve closer to God. And it can be a real win-win for everybody. But that’s what the commandments are designed to do.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:52             Aaron, that can be a real paradigm shift, at least for me. This is a day of creation. He tied it to creation on purpose.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:01:59             It’s really a sacred tie. He wants us to keep in remembrance what it is that we’re doing here. All of the commandments steer us in different directions. This one, we talk about thou shall not steal. It’s clear that that has to do with property. And, you know, the feelings that that can evoke if somebody takes your stuff. And I even love the story in Elisha. You remember that Elisha, somebody approaches him and he’s performing all these miracles and someone says, hey, I lost the ax in the river and it’s borrowed. Because it could cause some harsh feelings that I lost something or that could be perceived as stolen or whatever. This concept of stealing, forgive me for taking liberties here and how I expand this definition of what is stolen. This is something that I was reflecting on and that really became something poignant for me as I think about the concept of stealing.

                                           00:02:56             As I was pondering some nuances of that, I thoght, what about the concept of stealing someone’s dignity? What about robbing someone of hope? Stealing someone’s confidence in themselves or in God? Or robbing and stealing justice from the downtrodden or the most vulnerable? What about robbing mercy of justice? When our kids were really young our boys would fight occasionally. I know that’s hard to believe, but, and the older one would sometimes come in and say, “My fist hungers for justice.” Quoting Kung Fu Panda.

                                           00:03:36             What about stealing self-worth or robbing another’s hope in the gospel, the story of Alma and Corianton. And that was a discussion we were having just a few weeks ago with the writing committee for the scripture helps working on the Book of Mormon now. We were talking about Alma’s concern, obviously, for his son, but also for the effects that Corianton was having on other people. Alma understood the concept of fixing what you had broken, fixing the pain that you had caused others. Sometimes that was robbing them of a confidence in God, confidence in His gospel. When we’re in a position where that happens to us, we know how much that crushes us. We know what it feels like to have hope taken away. We feel the sting of losing dignity. Our reaction can sometimes be to lash out and make sure that somebody pays for it.

                                           00:04:30             And yet, it feels like these commandments are trying to say, even if you’re on the wrong end of this equation, it doesn’t mean that you respond in kind. I get the eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth thing that’s going to come up, but that’s a law that was given to make sure that punishment never exceeded a fair punishment. This concept of thinking about what we can take from other people is something that’s really been on my mind a lot lately.

John Bytheway:               00:04:59             Hank has a metaphor that I really like and is easy for kids to relate to about crushing your chips. You want to explain that, Hank?

Hank Smith:                      00:05:10             I can. I got this from my buddy Steve Rose. We taught together for a year at Copper Hills High School Seminary. We would take a bag of chips, and you can do this with your seminary students, you could do this with your family. I would do this with elementary school assemblies. I would take a big bag of chips. I would say, this bag of chips is your friend or your brother or your sister, and they look fine. They look fine. Look at them. And then you say something to them like, oh, you’re so dumb, or any insult that we throw around, stealing someone’s confidence, as Aaron said. And I would crush the chips into the microphone so you could hear it. But then you straighten the bag back out and it looks fine. It looks the exact same. Nothing has happened. Look, he’s fine.

                                           00:05:58             And then someone else does it and crushed again. Someone else says something, crushed again, and pretty soon we’re this big bag of crushed chips. So we came up with a saying for people to say in their family, hey, don’t crush my chips. Which means, hey, you’re hurting me on the inside. I look the same on the outside. John, thanks for remembering that’s funny.

John Bytheway:               00:06:21             I love that metaphor because what you just said, you look all right on the outside, but you might think, oh, I tease him all the time, or I tease her all the time. Oh, they’re okay, but some people might be crushed inside. Aaron brought that good metaphor to mind. We can all relate to Doritos and barbecue Lay’s potato chips.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:06:44             An important thing is for anybody who’s feeling that way, because that’s such a great metaphor, nobody likes to open a bag of chips and have the things crushed all over the place. Yet to think that somebody might be feeling that way inside. And if anybody is feeling that way, it’s on us to be able to help restore what was lost, whether it’s confidence, whether it’s a feeling of self-worth. It’s so easy to stand back and do nothing, even though you know somebody is being devastated by the behavior of someone else. Out of fears, out of concerns, we just say, I’m not going to get involved in this. It’s on us to try and restore that confidence to people that have truly been mistreated and had it stolen from them to be a part of helping to restore that because bearing false witness can have a similar application.

                                           00:07:37             Again, forgive me for taking liberties on this. Bearing false witness, falsifying stuff, taking things out of context, presenting false facts or manipulating truth. It’s like you don’t do that because it results in people getting harmed. It removes the end equation of truth. We can look at this and I just think sometimes we’re woefully uninformed of the circumstances and we just misjudge people. When we do that can cause so much pain when we judge somebody improperly and unfairly without understanding what they’re going through and sometimes we discriminate and we treat each other with harshness because we think we’re better or more important somehow.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:25             They deserve it and you don’t know what they’re going through. Aaron, I really appreciate this. When you said taking things out of context, right? Trying to paint someone in a bad light because you can share this piece of information, not the whole story, but I can share this piece of information. I’d never tied that to bearing false witness. But it really is. You are deliberately painting a different picture than what you know to be true, so gossip. You could easily be bearing false witness. Oh, I’m going to leave that part out. It’s not as juicy.

John Bytheway:               00:09:05             Yeah, making someone an offender for a word or how they tried to trip up Jesus with gotcha questions. They weren’t about learning truth. They were just gotcha questions. Let’s get somebody in a debate and make them say something. And in the internet age, pretty easy to take people out of context. And it’s going to get worse with AI.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:27             Aaron, I’m sure that when God says, “Thou shall not kill,” he’s talking about not taking life. I’m looking at the way you’re telling us to look at these and I can kill someone’s reputation. I could kill their confidence.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:09:41             Yeah. This is a community that’s trying to learn how to live together. It is them and they’re moving in a direction. If they can’t figure out how to get along, they’re in for a bunch of problems, which won’t take long for them to encounter here. For God, as the story moves along, we get these commandments and it’s like, here’s your expectations. And then we get back to verse 18 and we’re back to the people seeing the thunderings and lightnings again. Again, it’s now the expectations are clear of what’s happening. There’s a little bit of reservation here in verse 19. They said to Moses, “Speak thou with us, and we will hear, but let not God speak with us unless we die.” Again, we’re just coming back. And again, I’m sure Moses can empathize with this because he felt fear in front of God. For Moses he’s just like fear not.

                                           00:10:37             God has come to prove you. That word in verse 20 is nissah. It’s the same word that’s used in Genesis 22 with the Abraham story. It doesn’t necessarily mean he’s trying to, like, put you on trial or trick you into something, but it can also mean to give experience. Don’t be afraid. God didn’t lead you out here to die. He did not bring you out here to cause you pain. You’re about to have an experience that is rare, but that can become more frequent if we can develop holiness, and that is that he will go before your faces, and that he will be with you. This concept of Emmanuel is nothing new to Isaiah, it’s nothing new to Matthew. We yearn to be with God. In this case, God really is there, and they’re seeing the smokes and the fires, and it’s becoming a part of the reality, but again, it’s flinching back.

                                           00:11:34             And this is, again, what’s such an interesting part of the story is that we can control in some measure how far we’re willing to go with this, that we can put the brakes on and say, I’m not quite ready for this type of relationship to God, but God’s not stopping us per se from that relationship. He may stop and say, this is a holy place. You can’t go any further until we can take this as far as we want it to go, and that we can inquire and we can try and develop a relationship with God based on holiness that brings us into a more personal relationship with him. And again, keeping these commandments, understanding the purpose for their journey to commune with him and that he has actually brought them there himself, that’s something that is designed to instill confidence within them, but we all know how hard it can be to feel confidence in God when something is frightening us.

                                           00:12:29             When we get to chapters 21 to 23, which we’re not going to talk about, we’re interspersed here with the building and construction of the tabernacle, so, we’re kind of jumping through time in today’s reading to different chapters. Some things that really caught my attention, this is in Exodus 22:21, and it says, “Thou shalt neither vex a stranger nor oppress him, for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.” For Moses, this is a man who understands what it’s like to be homeless. He flees Egypt, he goes into Midianite territory. The word gare is something that means foreigner or alien, and he’s driven into a place where the Midianites could have really treated him poorly, but he found love, he found compassion, he found a family that welcomed him. You remember that as the Exodus starts, it says that a mixed multitude left with them.

                                           00:13:33             There weren’t just Israelites, that there were other people, Egyptians, that came with him. As they move forward, they’re going into foreign territories. For example, the story of Rahab, we’re going to see them bring in an individual that’s not from amongst them. For Moses, I think it meant the world to him that he was welcomed into a place that wasn’t his home. You remember the name of one of the children of Moses and Zipporah was Gershom?

Hank Smith:                      00:14:08             Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:14:09             That means a foreigner there. It seems that Moses was so touched of being received into a community that wasn’t his own. Being extended love and kindness was something that really, I think, impacted him as he realized the diverse communities that he was going to encounter along the way. We began to see God revealing some of these laws that are saying, you make sure that you’re compassionate towards the people that you encounter because you were a stranger once too. Don’t forget that. There’s just something again about that that resonates with me of being accepting of individuals who need a family, who need to fit in. And we all know what it feels like at times not to fit in. Yet, some of these laws that we encounter in these chapters 21 to 23 focus on that type of concept of being accepted and extending that kindness to others.

John Bytheway:               00:15:16             Hank, who was it that talked to us about these wonderful rules of hospitality in the Middle East? When you find a stranger and how you even defend them in your home and everything and you make sure they’re fed, because you were strangers once, I love how the Lord reminds them of that. You’ve been in that place, don’t forget.

Hank Smith:                      00:15:37             Yeah. John, how many times has it happened on this show that someone shows me something I’ve never thought of before in a text I’ve read quite a few times. The way Aaron threw some different light on the commandments there is very impactful. I have lots of notes. Aaron, let’s keep going. Where should we go next?

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:15:57             Yeah, let’s look at chapter 24 because our story picks up. We have now Aaron and Nadab and Abihu, his sons, and seventy elders of Israel that are going up now to elevate this experience now. Everything that God has been intending to do, we now have a select group going up that have been invited and the people have been balking, but God still wants to accomplish some important purposes here. So as they go up and the people are declaring in one voice that all the words which the Lord has said, we will do. There’s still this commitment that says, yes, we still want to keep pursuing this course. But now these seventy will go up as representatives of the group, which is interesting because again, we’re seeing how this is going to develop later on in the story. It’s going to be the priests that represent the people now in the tabernacle who will then go before God in their place, representing them.

                                           00:17:00             It’s like we’re seeing the training of a priestly class here, a group of people that are eventually going to represent the group as a whole because of this golden calf episode that’s going to happen to where the people aren’t quite ready to do it for themselves. So let’s get the priestly system in place that will allow them now to stand before God on their behalf. So we’re seeing a training going on here in this sacred space as they’re going up and down the mountain to holy places. But we’re seeing Moses writes the words of the Lord, this is verse four, which again, this is really characteristic of covenant codes between parties. Again, you’re writing everything down now, and eventually you’re going to read those in the presence of everybody. Moses wrote all these words down, and you have them erecting these pillars, these 12 pillars representing the tribes of Israel.

                                           00:17:55             We’re starting to see now representations on a larger scale of the tribes of Israel. They’re beginning to offer burnt offerings and sacrifices and peace offerings. This is really important because in the sacrificial system, these Shalamim, these peace offerings, those are intended to be a part of a sacrificial meal, at least some of them are. Ultimately, now, part of the offering is kept aside so that you can have a meal between the covenantal parties. This is leading to an experience where in verse seven, it says they took the book of the covenant, they read it aloud in the audience, everybody is aware what the expectations are. There’s no tricks here. All the Lord that he had said we will do and will be obedient. There’s a continued commitment. So we can feel good about when we waffle, we can keep coming back to our commitments and we can keep recommitting over and over again.

                                           00:18:54             Of course, it’s at this point that Moses took the blood. It says he sprinkled it on the people. Some people wonder if he’s actually sprinkling it upon the statues that were just sort of erected representing the tribes of Israel. Either way, there’s a precedent for this in the ancient world because later on you remember that the Levites will be anointed with blood as part of their priestly duties and anointings. However you choose to look at that this is within a sacred environment where sacrifices are being offered, where the blood of the covenant is being shed. Anciently, you don’t necessarily make a covenant, you cut a covenant. The karat berit means that I cut a covenant. There’s something very significant about this because the parties involved would sacrifice an animal and the blood that was being spilled was either going to guarantee their lives in safety and protection, or it was going to represent that if you breach that covenant, that the concept of sin is death.

                                           00:19:53             And there’s something now that’s going to be introduced in the sacrificial system that says, I have a substitute. And of course, you’ll talk about this more when you get into the ritual of where originally they would come and they would lay their hands on the sacrifice. It became a substitute for you. And therefore, because of the death of the sacrifice, you got to live. The sacrifice died and he died for you. It was because of your sins that he died. The concept here as they’re getting ready to go up and they’re literally going to dine with God. It’s very poignant that they’re sacrificing in covenant and recognizing that they need an atonement. They need something on behalf of them that they cannot do for themselves. As they go up in verse nine, it says they went up and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and the seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel.

                                           00:20:51             Everything that Moses had been promised back in chapter three of Exodus, this will be a token to you. Now they are seeing God. Under his feet, as it were, a paved work of sapphire stone, and as it were, the body of heaven. And upon the nobles and the children of Israel, again, it talks about describing seeing God, and they ate and drank. Think about that for a second.

Hank Smith:                      00:21:23             A feast.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:21:24             A feast. You remember what happens in chapter 27 of the Doctrine and Covenants where God describes that I will come and I will have a sacrificial meal with you and with all the prophets and with Moroni and goes on, he starts listing all these people. When you are welcome to the table of your host, you are fully accepted. You are part of the family. It’s a friendship. It’s a camaraderie. It’s a covenantal agreement now that these individuals are now experiencing and they’re eating and drinking in the presence of God. It’s almost unfathomable what’s happening here because again, Section 27 is very emotional in this. God wants to dine with us. He wants us to be at his table. We often hear that. We want everyone at the table. We don’t want any empty seats at the table. This is really the image of it because they are now seeing God.

                                           00:22:24             And I understand that different religious denominations will interpret this differently because it becomes problematic to have an anthropomorphic God. So I get that. This is what it’s communicating here, is that they are actually in the presence of God. This will come into the play later. You remember that Moses is going to ask for a sign. He’s like, please let me see your face. And God says, you can’t see my face now, but you’ll see me walking away. You will see me. Again, these are reaffirming the concept that God really is with us, that God is there. It’s so hard to do sometimes to remember that God really is there, but he is. I love some of the new hymns that are being introduced about walking with God. And there’s just something that’s very personal that I think we yearn for that kind of close relationship for us to be able to say with all solemnity, our Father, which art in heaven.

                                           00:23:22             Like to truly be able to comprehend that I am speaking with a Father who loves me, who cares about me, who is aware of me. These next several chapters talk about the construction of the tabernacle. When we pick up our story in chapter 31, this is now being described as the, they’re going to be building this holy place and they’re going to describe the different objects that are in it and some of the priestly gear that’s going to be constructed and how the artisans are going to be inspired in this process. And that’s where we pick up in chapter 31 and it talks about the clothes of service. This is verse 10 and the holy garments for Aaron and the priest and the anointing oil. If you go and you look at the Restoration and you look at how temple worship develops, particularly during the Kirtland and Nauvoo periods, 1836, 1842 and beyond, the early saints are starting to use language that says, we’re doing what was, what they were doing.

                                           00:24:29             We’re using the same type of oil that the Levites did when they were anointing each other. And the book of Moses is really a remarkable part of the development of temple worship in the Restoration. Moses’ experience, they drew heavily upon him. Of course, Moses appears himself in Kirtland in section 110 and is restoring keys. What is happening here isn’t just like a story of the past, it’s also a story of our recent past and present and has everything to do with how temple worship has developed in modern times.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:03             Aaron, why is the Lord so specific about how some things are meant to be done? This tabernacle that they’re going to build, there are specific, I want it done this way, this large, these are the measurements, I want it with these words. And I think it’s important to notice when the Lord does that.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:25:24             We learn from scripture that sometimes these are received by revelation. For example, we learn that God is giving these. We know that the Kirtland Temple was seen in vision. The Nauvoo Temple were seen in vision. You have these wonderful stories of sort of watching it hover in the air and, and it’s like, here’s how we’re going to do this. It’s obviously important to him. I can’t answer the question of why there’s only 40 sockets instead of 45. Like I don’t know all of that stuff. What is kind of interesting, the artisans that they’re using, and particularly when we get to the construction of Solomon’s Temple, they’re using Phoenicians. They’re using a template, we’ll use Solomon’s Temple as the example of iron age temples, and that is that they’re built in a tripartite construction technique, which means they have sort of an outer courtyard and then a holy place and then a Holy of Holies.

                                           00:26:15             God’s not reinventing the wheel. They’re doing stuff that they know how to do. They’re commissioning other people that know how to do this well. Then the prescriptions that become very specific, those then seem to bring us back into something that God is specifically trying to convey. There clearly are certain places, you know, like why you have a menorah, or why you have a lampstand, why you have images of flowers and floral patterns and cherubs. The goal isn’t to adapt what everybody else is doing, but it also doesn’t mean that you have to totally expel everything that everyone else is doing.

Hank Smith:                      00:26:52             And correct me, please, if I’m wrong, but a lot of this seems expensive. The gold crown round about it, the purple in the apron, he’s asking a lot to build this.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:27:07             Those purple colors, those are from the murex shell, the Phoenicians were famous for creating those dyes. The irony is, is that they’re going to melt down all of these precious metals that they have and turn it into a golden calf when they’re actually being told maybe you can use some of these resources to help construct the temple. Well, that’s the ironic turn of events that happens here. But yes, you get the impression that they are sparing no expense in this process because this is going to be their tabernacle of God. It is something that is sacred.

Hank Smith:                      00:27:41             I find this so fascinating looking at the specifics of what the Lord wants. I don’t think anybody could ask you to, hey, tell me exactly why he wants 250 of this and 40 of that.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:27:54             You may get to this when you talk about these chapters, but there is a symmetry to the construction pattern. One of my favorite graphics is they show, you know, the dimensions of the temple, then they draw an X through the holiest place and then an X through the rest of the temple pattern. If you look at the epicenter of the Holy Place, it’s where the Ark of the Covenant resides. Again, there seems to be something like the center of this particular holy place. It’s trying to draw our focus on the center of worship is the place that represents the symbol of God. There is the seat of God, so there is a lot of importance behind the construction techniques and how the temple is laid out and how the tabernacle is laid out.

Hank Smith:                      00:28:38             Maybe just in building it, you become holy. In doing what the Lord has asked you to do specifically, you change.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:28:45             We have plenty of documentation and church history of when they were building temples of what that did to their faith and the process of being willing to devote everything to that endeavor, whether it was donating money or property or time, work, labor for the project, those really did seem to build faith. Just all a reminder that heaven and earth don’t have to be so far away, and that temple and the tabernacles can bridge that gap. We get to chapter 32 to this golden calf incident. What are your initial thoughts on this? What’s going on here? What are we supposed to take away from this?

Hank Smith:                      00:29:25             Guys, after all you’ve experienced.

John Bytheway:               00:29:28             I’ve heard some people say, well, maybe the calf was a sign of Jehovah, but even then, one of the commandments was, don’t make any graven image. I’m ready to be educated because I don’t know.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:29:40             Moses is up there communing with God and trying to further what this whole venture has been about from the beginning. All of a sudden it’s like, hey, wait a second. Maybe Moses is gone. We can try and empathize with him and say, you know what? There’s some real concerns here because maybe the rug’s being pulled out from under us here. And we’re now stuck out in the desert. How do we get out of this? Maybe we need to appeal to some other gods. Or, like John was saying, maybe there was some good motivations to where maybe Aaron’s trying to steer them back saying, you know, I understand your inclination is let’s make something to represent a God. Well, let’s make sure it represents Jehovah. No matter how you slice and dice that, they were just told, don’t create idols that represent God. Even if Aaron did have good intentions, it still seems to breach one of the commandments.

Hank Smith:                      00:30:41             That word stands out to me. Exodus 32:1, they saw that Moses delayed. Maybe it’s that fear that comes up, which you just talked about is, oh, no. What if something’s wrong? Can I be faithful in a delay? It’s not panning out the way I thought it would.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:31:01             And you’re just thinking they appreciate the concern, but you just made a covenant. You just cut a covenant that’s saying, I will not create idols, and I promise that we will do all things that the Lord commands. Even if Aaron’s intentions were good, there’s still something that’s gone awry. We get this in verse seven, and the people arose early on the morrow and they offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and then rose up to play. Now, again, the word here for play, it’s sachaq. It’s the same word that’s used during this episode with Ishmael. It’s hard to describe what it is, but it almost has, like, a mocking type of undertone to it. Like, it can mean to laugh. Yitzchak, Isaac means to laugh or to rejoice. The way that it’s used in other contexts is you’re taking things lightly.

                                           00:32:03             And the Lord says to Moses, “Go down, for thy people which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt.” And we’ve just exhaustively talked about this for the last who knows how much as we’re filming this, what the purpose for that was and what it meant and what they had seen and what they were doing, but they’ve corrupted themselves. Now, to me, this is an important part of the story because the word here, shachath is what they use in Hebrew. It’s the same word that was used in the Noah story, the flood story. In the flood story, it’s used in a certain way, a tense, a mood, but it says, “They have thoroughly become corrupted.” That’s in the flood story. Here, it uses a different nuance where it says they’re doing things that are corrupt. The difference is that God is saying, Moses, go down because there’s, this is not a lost cause.

                                           00:33:02             They are being corrupt, but they are not corrupt. Does that make sense, the difference there? God is saying, this is not hopeless. We can’t give up on them. And this is something that fills me with hope. God is able to see my heart. He understands that when I do something that is wrong, he doesn’t give up on me and say, we’re finished. I can keep moving forward and there’s a chance for me to repent. There’s a chance for me to make things right through my covenants and through the atonement of Jesus Christ. And God’s telling him they’ve corrupted themselves so head down. They’ve turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them.

Hank Smith:                      00:33:43             Quickly such a funny word there. He’s like, man, that was fast.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:33:47             In verse 10, it says, “Let me alone that my wrath may wax hot against them.” One of my favorite depictions of God, they used this verb, this image of his nostrils flared. That’s one of the literal translations of God’s wrath in the Bible, like, his nostrils are flaring. He’s just angry at everything. Yet, this concept of, let me alone. And another way that you can possibly translate that is, like, let me just step back and take a break here. You can just almost imagine God taking a break and this is me taking liberties with the nostrils flaring, but have you ever been with somebody that you know they’ve encountered a really rough situation and their response is something like this. Just, okay.

Hank Smith:                      00:34:41             Yeah, that,

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:34:41             Here’s how we’re going to proceed. Instead of this raging lunatic God just seems to be saying, okay, let’s take a break here. Give me a minute. Composing himself, saying, okay, here’s what we’re going to do. Aaron has let this get out of control. And Moses, you have to go down and fix this. So at this point, that’s where it’s time to maybe take a different direction, not because we’re giving up, but because we need to fix what is happening here. A different course needs to be taken, and it’s not because God hasn’t tried, it’s not because God doesn’t care. Clearly, the people need some preparation. They need a preparation time to fulfill everything that God is intending for them here. And again, you don’t get the impression that God is destitute or ready to throw in the towel on this, but he’s ready to keep pursuing this in a different way.

                                           00:35:39             That’s when, I guess, we start looking over now if we were to jump to chapter 34, there’s something that’s really insightful in the Joseph Smith Translation of Exodus 34. If we could, Hank or John, are you willing to read Exodus 34:1-2 in the Joseph Smith translation? Because we’re going to see something now that is really telling in the course that God is now going to command them to take. JST, Exodus 34: 1-2. Page 800, if you have the same edition that I have.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:13             Yeah. You gotta get over by the maps. I remember finding this for the first time as a teenager going, wait, there’s all this other scripture back here. When did this get here? Page 800, Exodus 34:1-2. “And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two other tables of stone, like unto the first, and I will write upon them also the words of the law, according as they were written at the first on the tables, which thou brakest. But it shall not be according to the first, for I will take away the priesthood out of their midst. Therefore, my holy order and the ordinances thereof shall not go before them, for my presence shall not go up in their midst less I destroy them, but I will give unto them the law as at first, but it shall be after the law of a carnal commandment, for I have sworn in my wrath that they shall not enter into my presence, into my rest in the days of their pilgrimage, therefore do as I’ve commanded thee and be ready in the morning and come up in the morning unto Mount Sinai.”

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:37:17             Thank you. Now, what just happened here?

Hank Smith:                      00:37:20             Seems like he said, we’re going to do the same thing, but we’re going to take out pretty important portions of it. They’re not ready perhaps.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:37:29             The commandments aren’t going to change. The commandments are still meant to create holiness. At this point, it’s, all right, make two more tablets, make some other tablets like the first, and I will write upon them, but they’re going to be a little bit different because I will take away the priesthood from their midst. Now, let’s stop for a second and think, okay, what priesthood is God talking about? Because there is no Levitical order yet. This is something that’s predating that. Therefore, my holy order and the ordinances thereof shall not go before them, for my presence shall not go up in their midst. His intent was to bring them into his presence based on the priesthood. If we turn to Section 84 in the Doctrine and Covenants, we get really some insights that are invaluable as to what’s happening here. This is a revelation on the Melchizedek priesthood, wherein we learned that Moses received his priesthood from Jethro.

                                           00:38:47             The bigger picture here begins in section 84, verse 19. There it says, “And this greater priesthood,” meaning the Melchizedek priesthood, and again, this is just mind blowing because we learned that Jethro had this amongst the Midianites, and it administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, even the key of the knowledge of God. Again, this is fascinating because if you go back and look at Abraham one, verse two, these are some of the things that Abraham sought. He wanted a knowledge of God. He wanted a priesthood. So this is something that’s continuing down, and again, we look at Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but the Midianites also, through Jethro, seem to have access to this. Here’s the key thing.

                                           00:39:36             Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. This has always been about holiness. And without the ordinances thereof and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh, for without this, no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Now, this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness. Sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God, but they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. It seems that what God was really trying to do was offer them something related to the Melchizedek priesthood that again, Moses possessed that would have allowed them to literally commune with God up on Mount Sinai. And we get the impression that that was going to take place through a series of rituals and ordinances that legitimized that experience and that created the power of godliness that enabled one to endure the presence of God and live because that’s been again the concern here all along is you talk with God lest we die.

                                           00:40:51             There’s something about this now, all of these preparations. This isn’t a story about loss, it’s a story about gain, and it’s really easy to look at it and just say, oh yeah, look at all the lost opportunities. President Uchtdorf would talk about, come where you are, but come. God’s willing to work with us wherever we are at. He’s willing to help us in whatever means he can. At this stage, the ordinances of the Melchizedek priesthood was not going to be a part of that equation at this state. God was going to give them something that was just as sacred, just as holy, that was going to represent the process of obtaining the presence of God. That was going to come in the form of a tabernacle that would be constructed and a holiness code that was going to prepare through a series of commandments for us to, again, visually represent and go through the process of one day being able to stand in the presence of God because of the atonement that would be made and the sacrificial offerings that would represent the eventual sacrifice of the Son of God who would make it once and for all possible for us to obtain God’s presence in a state of holiness, which was a state that we could not obtain on our own.

Hank Smith:                      00:42:04             Let me tie this to something that we were taught last year. Section 84, we had Dr. Halverson with us, Jared. He talked about this moment that Aaron just quoted, Section 84, 23 through 26 about why this changed because of what happened with the calf. He quotes, he takes us to Galatians 3:19. Aaron, I’ll give you a chance to comment on this because I thought it was a beautiful idea and I love bringing all of this together. Paul says in the Book of Galatians that God added the law at this point. It’s not subtraction. I’m going to quote right from Jared. “It seems to be a subtraction when you go from Melchizedek to Aaronic, and yet in the Book of Galatians, Paul says that God added the law. That’s the arithmetic for Paul. It’s addition, not subtraction.” Jared says,” I’ve always wrestled with that. “Like, how does that even work?”

                                           00:43:01             How is the Aaronic being added to the Melchizedek? It’s a step down. But then I realized, wait, maybe it’s a step down because the Israelites weren’t ready for the step up that God had attended for them. Then he says this, “I used this object lesson when I taught seminary where I’d have a student come up to the front. I said, I need you to step up to the desk. And they did it easy, you know, a bounding leap there up to the top. I’m like, no, no, no. You pushed off the floor. I want to see if you can do this one leg, deep squat, full body weight without pushing off the floor at all. The other students are like hawks watching him, like, no, no, no, no. I saw you. I saw your calf muscle flexed. That doesn’t count.” He said, “In all the years I did it, one kid, a gymnast was able to do it with the strength of one quad, but everyone else failed.” Then he did this.

                                           00:43:50             He said, “Let me add the piano bench next to the desk by adding a stepstool. Or as Paul calls it in that same chapter, adding a school master to bring us unto Christ. I’ll add the law to help you come up to the gospel. I’ll add Aaronic ordinances to help you be prepared to receive Melchizedek ordinances. We’re going to do baby steps on this one, so let me add them. In my frustration, I can’t hold you up to this highest standard and the holiest order of God, but in my kindness and compassion and mercy, I can give you an Aaronic priesthood that will help you prepare to receive what I was really after all along, which was Melchizedek ordinances and the power of God.” Aaron, you just said almost the exact same thing, which is don’t look at this as a taking away, but as a loving God saying, you weren’t ready for this big step, why don’t I add a smaller step to help you get there? Is that ringing true?

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:44:56             Yeah, Jared just said it a lot more eloquently than I did. It’s a feeling that lets you know that wherever we are, God is willing to help us. That’s comforting to any of us who struggle in life, thinking that maybe I’m out of step with where I need to be, maybe I’m not quite where I need to be, but to realize that God as a loving father isn’t going to give up on a child because it hasn’t met the expectations of where you hope they are now. You go there and you help the child wherever they are. And the way that Jared described that is in Section 84, the grand purpose is to get us to stand before God, that those ordinances and everything that temple worship encapsulates is being able to stand before God. In 34, Exodus 34:5, it says, “The Lord descended in the cloud and stood with Moses there and proclaimed the name of the Lord.”

                                           00:45:56             One of my favorite oaths in the Bible, remember Elijah when he’s calling down the famine, he says, “In the name of the Lord God before whom I stand.” There’s something about that that says, I recognize that God lives, and I stand before him as a witness. At that point, Elijah calls down the famine from heaven. Understanding that God is real, that he knows us, that he cares about us, I love that statement, President Ezra Taft Benson, that one day we’ll remember God, and he says, “Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father and how familiar his faith is to us.” That’s what this is all about, being able to come back and stand before God. Everything that was happening here was trying to accomplish that, and the fact that the people weren’t ready any more than you and I aren’t ready right now, attest to the fact of how much God loves us to where he sets up a worship system, prepares a series of covenants, of commandments that prepares us for that grand day, where we will stand before the heavenly parents that we will recognize and immediately understand my relationship to them.

                                           00:47:33             We do our best now to come to that understanding. As we go through the process of time now, it comes back to what President Nelson taught in his talk The Lord Jesus Christ Will Come Again. He says, “Regular worship in the temple will help us. In the house of the Lord, we focus on Jesus Christ. We learn of him. We make covenants to follow him. We come to know him. As we keep our temple covenants, we gain greater access to the Lord’s strengthening power. In the temple, we receive protection from the buffetings of the world. We experience the pure love of Jesus Christ and our heavenly Father in great abundance. We feel peace and spiritual reassurance and contrast to the turbulence of the world. Whether you’re ancient Israel or whether you’re modern day, there’s something about what the tabernacle was meant to convey to them that has a similar message for us today in the worship in the temple.

                                           00:48:31             It’s bringing peace in a troubled world and giving us strength in circumstances where we just feel like we’re exhausted and we just can’t go any further. For God, this was giving them the strength to keep moving forward and, and it’s where you have Moses who continually pleads with God. If you’re still there, let me know. This was back in 33:13. “Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I might find grace in thy sight and consider that this nation is thy people.” He said, “My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.” There’s just something that’s so dear and so tender about this conversation with Moses that I will give you rest. There’s this wonderful quote by Joseph F. Smith when he’s talking about the rest of the Lord.

                                           00:49:28             It hearkens back to some of the things that Abraham was seeking because Abraham sought for rest as well. Joseph F. Smith, he said this, “What does it mean to enter into the rest of the Lord? Speaking for myself, it means that through the love of God, I have been won over to him so that I can feel at rest in Christ, that I may no more be disturbed by every wind of doctrine, by the cunning and craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and that I am established in the knowledge and testimony of Jesus Christ so that no power can turn me aside from the straight and narrow path that leads back into the presence of God, to enjoy that exaltation in his glorious kingdom, that from this time henceforth, I shall enjoy that rest until I shall rest with him in the heavens.

                                           00:50:27             To be able to see that I am so committed to God, I love him so much, that there is nothing that will turn me aside from him. I recognize that relationship that I have with him, that the things that I hear, they won’t lead me astray, that the things that I do, my sinfulness, old wretched man that I am, I understand that I can overcome that, that there’s hope, that there’s no end to the process of repentance, that as long as I’m willing to repent, God is happy to forgive me. He was so delighted at the prospect that people could repent and would repent that he was willing to give his son, his only begotten son as a sacrifice. That is how much we meant to him, and this whole system now that will be set up under Moses is going to remind them of that process of redemption, of a redeemer, of hope.

Hank Smith:                      00:51:31             This is an entirely different lesson than I’ve taken from this story in the past, which probably has been fine. What are some of our golden calves? Hey, don’t make mistakes or you’re going to miss out. That’s been a lesson that I’ve received and taught from this. But this, Aaron, what you’re showing us is an entirely different lesson, which is they made this mistake and God in his love and mercy adjusted to help them get there. That’s beautiful. Take a young person or any person who feels like they’ve made this big mistake, they’ve corrupted themselves, and, wow, I did. I missed out on everything. I missed out on everything I could have had. Instead, I’ve corrupted myself. I’ve made this mistake. Oh, how wonderful that I have a God who loves me will adjust and show me a way, give me a way.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:52:28             It’s just something that inspires, that relieves Sister Elaine Dalton, reiterating what you just said there, Hank, from a talk entitled He Knows You By Name. She says, “You may not have heard the Lord call you by name, but he knows each one of you, and he knows your name.” Elder Neal A. Maxwell said, “I testify to you that God has known you individually for a long time. He has loved you for a long time, a long, long time. He not only knows the names of all the stars, he knows your names and all your heartaches and your joys.” And I just, I love the way you put that, Hank, that when we make mistakes, it’s not the end of the journey, it’s the beginning of a new one. We all know how painful mistakes are, some of them more so than others. If there’s anything that these chapters help us better comprehend is that there’s always a path forward.

                                           00:53:29             There’s a way to keep moving forward. That way is Christ. And through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and again, the worship system that’s being set up here, that way is always an option for anyone who will claim it. For the people of the day, as Moses continues to help them comprehend, he keeps going up and down and communing with God. They’re coming up with the next course of action. And it’s not like God’s caught by surprise of all of this, but they still have to communicate what’s next, and they still need to move forward in a way that’s plausible. For Moses, the last time in 34 that he comes back down, you remember he comes down and it says that his face shone. Have you ever seen that statue of Moses in Rome with the horns? People have tried to figure out for years what that’s meant.

                                           00:54:19             When Jerome translated the Latin Vulgate, he chose the verb qaran, which means horns and Michelangelo seems to be drawing upon this. Horn is also a symbol of power and qaran it’s a word that means to illuminate or to have light or to shine. As Moses comes down, the people are still able to see that once again, God has not abandoned them. He veils his face because of this shining light coming out of him. Again, you figure this is part of transfiguration or something has happened that’s sacred that he’s communing with God. But the people still see that.

                                           00:54:58             There’s something of value that we can be able to still see. Like even when we feel destitute, if we can see and trust a prophet of God, that he’s leading us, that he’s guiding us, that maybe he’s getting information that I don’t have, that maybe he knows better than I do, that even if I feel a temporary separation from God, I trust his prophet. Chapter 34 ends that way where you see Moses’ face shine and all the people are still seeing the manifestations of God. He wants the people to know and he wants all of us to know, is that I am still here. Always remember that.

John Bytheway:               00:55:39             I love the Elder Holland quote that you brought up that God is not thinking of ways to disappoint us or harm us. It reminded me of the Book of Mormon statement, he doeth not anything, save it be for the benefit of the world. The way you brought this out today for the benefit of each of us individually as well. I think you brought that out beautifully. The law of Moses, the change he made wasn’t a punishment. It was a new way to bring you back to him. That’s a great way to think of this.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:12             Isn’t that a great lesson? A new way.

John Bytheway:               00:56:15             You’re going to hold onto that forever, yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:18             Me too. It reminds me of an experience I had. I was speaking at a conference for school principals. I get there 30 to 40 minutes before I speak to sit in the back and listen to who’s presenting before me. And this woman is up there. She’s a principal and she tells this story. I wanted you both to hear this. She tells this story that she was a bit of a rebel as a teenager and her father consistently warned her about her behavior, that it was going to lead to big problems for her. Well, the day came where it did, and she had to tell her father that she was pregnant. So she sat down across from her dad who had been warning her and warning her and warning her, and she’s in tears, and she said, Dad, I’m pregnant. She said, my dad, he said something like this, he said, if you choose to raise this baby, you are going to be the most incredible mother.

                                           00:57:31             You are such a wonderful person with such a good heart. If you choose to raise this baby, this baby will be so blessed to have you as mom. And I sat in the back of that room. I was so touched and it’s the same feeling you just gave me here, Aaron. We have a father who can adjust to our … He warns, he helps, he’s teaching, and then when we fall or fail or struggle, he’s there to say, oh no, we can adjust. We can make this. You’re going to get there.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           00:58:07             Thank you, Hank. And if we could just understand how much God loves us, it could change the way we perceive life. My father, I remember after our first son was born, I was holding him there. I’m just, again, in awe of what it’s like, you’re a parent, you’re holding this little child. And my dad, he just looked at me and kind of put his arms around me and he said, how do you feel about this child? Of course, I’m just like, I don’t even know how to explain it, how much I love this little baby. I remember him asking me a rhetorical question, do you think I ever loved you any less? At that moment, whatever criticisms I’d had about dad or whatever, they disappeared. To think that God truly knows each of us by name, that cares about us like that, really can instill confidence.

                                           00:59:00             Now, I remember walking home every day from when we were in Hawaii and I’d walk around the street and the kids always knew when I was coming. They would see me and I’d have all these like three little kids come cruising down the street yelling, daddy, daddy, daddy. And they’d come up to me and hug me and I just thought this is the sweetest thing in life. And to imagine that God feels that way about each of us is something that is indescribable. He just simply never does give up. And if there’s anyone that’s feeling hopeless or feeling like they’re going through a time where nobody cares, there is somebody who cares. Hopefully we can become those people who care more and more because the law was set up in such a way that we extend compassion and love to others. There’s always a loving heavenly father who is there and mindful of us. He truly is in a position to help and sometimes the way that he helps is sending us. We become those helping hands if we’ll respond.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:07             Yeah. Wow.

John Bytheway:               01:00:10             We say a lot, we’re children of God. I hope we don’t lose the meaning just because if we repeat it so often. What we’ve talked about today is, okay so what does that mean and what is God like? It’s so nice to know how loving he is. You’re a beloved child of God. He makes adjustments. I like that word you both used. When we make mistakes, he makes adjustments. He’s in relentless pursuit, I heard you say, to use Elder Kearon’s words.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:43             Aaron, I’ve always taken chapter 33, verse 11. The Lords speak unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend. I’ve always thought of that as, oh, because the friend has a face and God has a face. They both have faces and that tells us that God has a body. I still think you can get that lesson out of that, but I think I missed the word. It wasn’t as a man speaketh to another man. It’s, they talked because they’re friends. I think Aaron, when I come over and, or you knock on my door or I knock on yours and we just talk, I’m not scared of you. I’m not scared that Aaron’s going to come in and judge me and start looking around pointing out all my flaws. I don’t know. For some reason, I had missed that. It’s not as a man speaketh unto another man. It’s, they talk because they’re friends.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           01:01:30             Yeah. It’s remarkable to think of that’s the kind of relationship that God desires to have with us. We’ve also been warned, you know, don’t get too casual in that relationship, but to lose sight of the fact that, that we are cared for as friends. You are my friends. That’s something that’s remarkable and can really bring peace in any life.

Hank Smith:                      01:01:54             Whenever I couldn’t remember how to spell friend, I think my teacher said, remember, you’re a friend till the end. And I always knew how to spell it from there on out. Yeah. John, what a great day.

John Bytheway:               01:02:05             Awesome day. Every week, I think, how can this get better? And this is another one where, okay, I’m looking at this differently than I was before.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:14             Yeah. If someone would have said, hey, those ten commandments, you’re going to see those differently. Oh, and that golden calf story, it’s going to be completely flipped around on you. I would have said, oh, it must be followHIM because that happens. That’s what happens on the show. Aaron, thank you for your time.

Dr. Aaron Schade:           01:02:32             Yeah, you bet.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:33             What a blessing to have you here. It’s been great. With that, we want to thank Dr. Aaron Schade for being here. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to continue this same story on followHIM. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we’d love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co, that’s followhim.co to download your free copy today, and you’ll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our followHIM family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorensen.