Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:15 As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my parabolic co-host, John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:29 Is that geometry?

Hank Smith: 00:30 Yeah, parabolic. It can be talking about geometry. I looked this up to make sure I was going to use this right. It can be like a parabola or it’s expressed in parables. Guess what we’re talking about today, John?

John Bytheway: 00:44 Parables, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:45 Yeah. We’re going to be talking about some of the parables of Jesus today and we needed a Bible expert to join us. Who’s with us?

John Bytheway: 00:51 We have Daniel Becerra with us and you’re going to love this bio. Daniel Becerra is a scholar of early Christianity, holds secondary specialties in New Testament and Greco-Roman philosophy. We had a Greco-Roman wrestler on once, but this is Greco-Roman philosophy.

  01:06 He received a PhD in early Christianity and an MA in religious studies from Duke University, an MTS in New Testament early Christianity from Harvard Divinity School. We talked briefly beforehand about how David Holland, Elder Holland’s son who was there and the BA in ancient near Eastern studies from Brigham Young University.

  01:27 His primary research interests concerned moral formation in late antiquity, second through seventh centuries, particularly within Christian aesthetic contexts. He also researches topics relating to theology and ethics in the Book of Mormon. So I love reading the bios of people and seeing how wide-ranging our scholars are. So we’re really happy to have you, Brother Becerra. Thanks for joining us today.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 01:51 Happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Hank Smith: 01:53 Dr. Becerra is my friend Daniel, so if it’s okay, we’re going to call you Daniel, but we know you earned the term doctor.

John Bytheway: 02:00 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 02:02 We’re grateful to have you. I’ve been looking forward to this. John, Daniel is as good as a man as they come. We are just about four down, four offices away from each other at BYU, and his door is always open and he’s so kind to me. So he’s as kind as he is brilliant. I think we’re going to have a great day today.

  02:18 Daniel, how do we want to start this? I was looking to the Come, Follow Me Manual. We’re going to be in Matthew 13 and then in the Gospel of Luke as well, chapter eight and chapter 13. We’re going to kind of hand the reins over to you and say, “Hey, where do you want to go?” And I’m sure John and I’ll have something to say along the way.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 02:36 Well, there’s a few things I want to accomplish today. First of all, I’m hoping we can kind of work through the text and get a sense for what’s happening and why it might be important for us.

  02:43 I’m planning on spending the majority of the time on Jesus’ parables and explore, hopefully, some different ways to engage with them productively. We’ll take a look at a few of Jesus’ miracles in Luke eight and then finish it up with a bit of reflection on the maternal imagery that Jesus uses to describe himself in Luke 13.

  02:59 The good news is that there’s a lot of overlap in these chapters, so I’ll stick primarily to Matthew and then bring in Luke where it differs.

Hank Smith: 03:05 John, I might as well say this upfront because we want to hear from you, you’ve written a book on parables, isn’t that right?

John Bytheway: 03:10 Did you say John? Yes, I did.

Hank Smith: 03:12 Yeah, John.

John Bytheway: 03:13 And so did you, Hank. We love parables and we love applying parables and as we’ve often said on this show, there’s the interpretation of scripture and then there’s the application of scripture. With parables, it really allows us to do a lot of application, doesn’t it?

Hank Smith: 03:27 We’re going to have a lot of fun here.

John Bytheway: 03:28 Yeah, this is going to be great.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 03:30 Just for the record, I’m the only one here that hasn’t written a book on parables, so I fully expect you guys to carry me if I need it.

John Bytheway: 03:37 Well, I’ve been described by others as parabolic even within the last few minutes. I’m a parabola.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 03:45 So I thought we could begin in Matthew and kind of situate ourselves within the context of the larger gospel. As you guys may know, scholars frequently divide the Gospel of Matthew into five different sections, each of which has a kind of narrative portion and discourse portion.

  03:58 One half of each section you have Jesus going from here to there and there to here doing these things, and then the other half of that section, he’s preaching a sermon or something like that. The theme of the section that we are in today is some scholars say like the Kingdom of Heaven. This is Jesus’s primary message in these chapters. So the narrative portion is chapters 11 through about 13, records Jesus’ preaching and miracles around Galilee and then the discourse portion, which is 15. The entire chapter of 13 records teachings about what he refers to as the Kingdom of Heaven.

  04:29 The idea of the Kingdom of Heaven is really important to Jesus. In Matthew, he references it about 32 times and he spends a significant amount of time in it, 13, especially. In fact, Matthew’s the only book that talks about the Kingdom of Heaven, whereas the rest of the Bible refers to as the Kingdom of God.

  04:44 Those terms seem to be synonymous, at least in my understanding. One value of understanding the kind of literary structure of the scriptures that we’re going to be reading is that it can help us know what to look for and what questions Jesus is trying to answer, can help us to be more informed interpreter of the scripture, which is why I spend a little bit of time on that.

  05:00 I think this is especially important for Matthew 13 because we get a lot of parables and of all the different genres of literature in the New Testament, parables are perhaps most conducive to a variety of interpretations as both of you know and we’ll talk about that in a second.

  05:13 So in terms of context where we are in the story, Matthew 13, Luke 8, they open up with Jesus ministering to people in every city and every village. He’s apparently accompanied by his mother, his brothers, his 12 disciples. And as Luke tells us, certain women which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herrod’s steward and Susanna and many others which ministered unto him of their substance.

  05:40 A couple of things I want to point out here. First is how much of a family affair this seems to have been. Typically, when we imagine Jesus out during his ministry in art or just in our minds, we imagine him maybe either alone talking to a big group or with his apostles, but here we see he had a whole kind of entourage with him, family members, friends, apostles. I think it just would’ve been nice to come home after a hard day of preaching and just have the support there of your loved ones.

  06:06 I remember the day my daughter was baptized, I think it was during COVID and we had all of our family Skyping in and just seeing the support there for her. People from all different ages and walks of life with her in that and just like the support she felt. So that’s kind of the image I get, just this web and blanket of support for Jesus.

  06:24 And second, it’s important to recognize how integral women were to his life and ministry. They were there at his birth, they were there at his crucifixion. They were the first to see him resurrected and testify that he lives. They were there all throughout his ministry.

  06:37 In this case, they seem to be supporting him temporarily, whether it was financially or with meals or helping out with logistical things, but they were there in an integral part of his ministry and I think it’s important that we point that out as well.

Hank Smith: 06:47 Yeah, that’s verse 3, “Which ministered unto him of their substance.” Sounds like they’re working hard.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 06:54 So Matthew 13, it opens up, Jesus goes outside, he sits on the shores of the Sea of Galilee. Matthew doesn’t tell us exactly why he went out there. We do know from other passages that periodically Jesus often kind of seeks out solitude to go into the wilderness to be by himself, whether it’s to pray or just collect himself.

  07:11 So perhaps this is what’s happening here. I have to imagine sometimes he just felt maybe physically or emotionally exhausted and maybe just took some pleasure in taking some time to appreciate the beauty of his surroundings. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Galilee, but just sitting on the shore of the sea there, I can imagine just kind of taking it in and the spirit of that place.

Hank Smith: 07:29 Yeah, it’s really nice.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 07:30 So he is sitting there, Matthew tells us, and great multitudes were gathered together unto him. So they came and found him or maybe it was planned. So many so that he went into a ship and sat and the whole multitude stood there at the shore and he spoke many things to them in parables.

  07:44 Before we get into the parables themselves, I think it might be helpful to maybe provide a kind of brief introduction to what they are, and you guys can correct me or add anything that I forget.

Hank Smith: 07:53 Sounds good. We love that job, right John?

John Bytheway: 07:55 Yep. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 07:56 Yeah. First important to recognize I think just how often Jesus actually spoke in parables in the New Testament. They’re everywhere. People offer different lists of them, but if we were to kind of name all of them, there’s quite a few. This is a list compiled by a guy named Klyne Snodgrass. He wrote a book called Stories with Intent: A Comprehensive Guide to the Parables of Jesus. And this is a really helpful book.

  08:17 He lists 29 different parables. Here are some of the names. Unforgiving Servant, Two Debtors, Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, Prodigal Son, Growing Seed, Wheat and Tares, Mustard Seed, Leaven, Treasure, Pearl, Barren Fig Tree, Two Sons, Wicked Tenants, Wedding Banquet, Two Builders, Good Samaritan, Workers in Vineyard, Tower Builder, Rich Fool. And I mean the list just goes on. So this is one of Jesus’s, if not the preferred, method of teaching. So I think it’s important that we understand what they are and how they function if we’re going to productively engage with them.

Hank Smith: 08:45 Let me read just a little bit from the manual. It begins the same way. Some of the Savior’s most memorable teachings were in the form of simple stories called parables.

  08:54 These were more than just interesting anecdotes about ordinary objects or events. They contained profound truths about the Kingdom of God. For those who are seriously prepared. One of the first parables recorded in the New Testament talks about the sower, and then he says, this is Jesus, “For whosoever receiveth, to him shall be given and he shall have more abundance.”

  09:14 So as we prepare to study the Saviors parables or any of his teachings, a good place to start is to examine our hearts and determine whether we are giving the word of God good ground. They kind of introduce the idea of parables by using one of these first ones, parable of the sower.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 09:30 Yeah, excellent. And if we were to ask ourselves, I mean you were mentioning this earlier, what are some characteristics of parables? The word parable comes from the Greek word parabole, which can also be translated as… it’s where we get the English word parabola. It can also be translated as juxtaposition or comparison or illustration or analogy.

  09:47 If you imagine a parable or a parabola, it has two sides that mirror each other. So we can imagine the text is the one side of the parabola, the meaning is the other. There’s a sense in which parables point beyond themselves, they gesture to something beyond what is on one side of them. They also tend to be short and memorable. They are fictitious stories articulating truth. So they’re not true and accurate in a historical sense, but they’re intended to convey true principles. And what I mean by that is there probably wasn’t actually a good Samaritan who found a guy on the road, there probably wasn’t actually a prodigal son.

  10:18 Like these are invented characters in a story. They also tend to often contain multiple layers of meaning. Jesus isn’t talking about a guy baking bread necessarily or traveling from Jerusalem to Jericho, there’s something beyond this. The images that are found in parables are typically drawn from common life, not our common life, but the common life of a person living in the first century, which is why some knowledge of the ancient world I think is important for interpreting them.

  10:42 And as we go through, I’ll try to do my best to kind of fill in some of the gaps maybe as much as I can. Also, parables tend to challenge norms. Oftentimes what you would expect a character to do or what he or she might be justified in doing is not what he or she does. And this is a significant part. When somebody says or does something out of the ordinary, this is typically the place to stop and meditate.

  11:02 It’s like, “What is the significance of this weird unexpected event?” And putting those kind of characteristics aside, some New Testament scholars have kind of suggested different theories to explain how parables function by extension, how we might interpret them.

  11:15 So let me just give you three theories and then we’ll get into the text itself. The first theory is that parables are intended to obscure truth, which is to say they’re told with the intent that only insiders will be able to understand their meaning, those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. And this is essentially what Jesus says in Matthew 13. The disciples came and said to him, “Why speakest thou unto them in parables?” He answered and said unto them, “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven. But to them, it is not given.”

  11:43 So there were certain things about the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus felt some people weren’t ready to hear for whatever reason. So parables are intended to obscure truth in some sense. But the second theory about parables is that they can teach many truths.

  11:55 They are a fountain of meaning. If we have the tools to just dig down and find the spring and sift out the dirt and rocks and collect the water. I think most Latter-day Saints would be open to this idea, the idea that more can be revealed to us than is written on the page. So they obscure truth, they teach many truths. Some scholars will say that parables have only one meaning, and that the author of the parable, Jesus or Matthew, they intended it to mean one thing and that’s what it means.

  12:20 If we get anything additional out of that, that’s great, but that’s not what Jesus intended it to mean. Now, obviously we don’t have to accept any of these theories as binding or I don’t actually think any single theory can account adequately for all of Jesus’ parables, but I do think they raise some important questions relating to parable interpretation.

  12:37 Perhaps the most pressing for us is can parables mean anything? If not, how do we determine what they mean? If we acknowledge that there’s more things to learn that’s on the page, are there boundaries around that? Can it just mean, is it just a free for all? So things we might consider as we go into these parables, some tips for interpreting them responsibly and then we’ll get into the text.

  12:55 First, as with all things, we want to include the Holy Spirit in our reading of scripture. As a revealer of truth, it’s absolutely necessary. The Holy Spirit’s not going to do all the work, but with his help, I think we can definitely work better and more efficiently.

  13:06 Second, we can ask ourselves, does Jesus offer an explanation? Sometimes he does. The Parable of the Sower or the Parable of the Wheat. These are two examples that when Jesus says, “This is what I mean by this.” We have a pretty good sense of what to get out of it, pretty straight.

Hank Smith: 13:18 When he’s like, “Here’s the answer key.”

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 13:20 Yeah. I know. Pretty straightforward. We can ask ourselves what did it mean to them and there? Then we want to pay attention to it. Original context, ask questions like, “To whom was Jesus talking? Why did he address this parable to them? What question or concern is it intended to address?”

  13:36 Also, some images and metaphors have rich meaning for people in Jesus’ time, and they’re not that easy for us to recognize living today in the 21st century. And this is why maybe a good study Bible or commentary can help us kind of bridge that cultural and historical gap. You guys are probably aware of the recent change in the general handbook of the church that said, and I’m quoting here, “When possible, members should use a preferred or church published edition of the Bible in church classes and meetings.”

  14:03 And then it continues, “This helps maintain clarity and discussion and consistent understanding of doctrine.” And then it concludes, “Other additions of the Bible may be useful for personal or academic study.” I can’t stress enough how useful study Bibles can be. The HarperCollins study Bible or the new Oxford annotated Bible. These are super helpful because they give you explanatory comments in the footnotes and it’s just easier to understand in my reading.

Hank Smith: 14:27 I personally use a little website called Bible Hub, just gives me all sorts of translations. I know others have used Blue Letter Bible. It’s an app, I think.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 14:36 And those are helpful for looking at different English translations of the Bible, but if you want historical notes saying, “What’s a Tare exactly?” Oh, it’s a little weed that looks like wheat when it’s young, but it changes form when it’s older and things like that. So absolutely.

  14:49 In addition to asking what it meant to them there, then we could also ask what it can mean to me here and now. How can I apply this to my life? What can modern revelation, how can modern revelation compliment my reading of the parable, et cetera?

  15:02 Three more things. Take notice of surprise details. Certain parables have shocking and unexpected twists in the story that help us understand the point that Jesus was trying to make. And again, sometimes these are hard to identify because we’re like, “Well, how much is this much yeast like?”

Hank Smith: 15:19 What’s 10,000 talents?

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 15:20 Yeah. I know exactly, right? Also, I think it’s important to remember too that not every minor detail has significant meaning. There’s a point at which every metaphor breaks down. For me, it’s helpful to think of parables as an arrow pointing to truth as opposed to a detailed sketch of reality.

  15:36 The Parable of the 10 Virgins, for example. You have five are wise, five are foolish. I think it would be wrong to conclude that exactly 50% of the Earth are exactly, 50% of the church are wise and foolish because of this. These are just images that kind of get the story going. Okay, last one.

  15:50 Typically, the ending of the parable is where we see the meaning articulated. It’s where we see the moral of the story, the Wheat and Tares for example, Jesus says, “Therefore, the tares gathered in and burned in the fire, so it shall be at the end of this world.”

  16:03 So this is key for unlocking it so to speak. Maybe we can apply some of these to our reading of the parables in Matthew and Luke. I mentioned before that Jesus’s explicit goal in several of these parables is to explain to his audience what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. Okay? This is one of the questions that these parables answer. So regardless of any additional insights we get from them, Jesus clearly designed them to help us understand the Kingdom of Heaven.

  16:26 What I want to do is this, I want to read you several parables out loud, two or three at a time that describe what the Kingdom of Heaven is like. Jesus’s original audience and as well as the earliest Christians after his death, they wouldn’t likely have encountered these teachings in written form.

  16:40 They didn’t have their own scriptures. Most of them probably couldn’t read. So what they would do is they would gather together in house churches, they didn’t have basilicas or buildings or anything yet, and the gospels would be read to them. So their encounter with the parables would be orally. They would hear them.

  16:56 So in an effort to recreate that, that’s what I kind of want to do. After each group of parables, I want you to tell me if you perceive any common themes in the parables that I read to you and what these themes might suggest about the Kingdom of Heaven. Does that make sense?

Hank Smith: 17:12 Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 17:13 And I also want to invite you to kind of resist the tendency to define the Kingdom of Heaven before we actually get through the parables, because at least in my reading of this chapter, the Kingdom of Heaven has a broader meaning than we typically give it.

  17:24 By assuming that it equals the church or equals the celestial kingdom or something like that, it might limit our ability to understand everything that Jesus is trying to tell us.

  17:31 So first group, two parables, Mustard Seed and Parable of Leaven. Common themes in what they might suggest about the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field. Which indeed is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs.

  17:50 And it becomes a tree so that the birds of the air, come and lodge in the branches thereof. Second, Parable of Leaven, the Kingdom of Heaven is likened to leaven, which a woman took and hid three measures of meal till the whole was leavened. And just by way of some historical context, three measures of meal is about 50 pounds of flour. So it’s enough for about 100 loaves for one woman.

  18:12 So we have the mustard seed, we have the leaven. Did you notice anything they have in common? And if so, what, if anything that might tell us about the Kingdom of Heaven? What’d you think?

Hank Smith: 18:22 Both start small and end up bigger than they were when they started. Having more impact than you would think. Something small has great impact. How did I do.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 18:33 It’s unrealized. But yeah. And again, there’s not one answer to this, but I think that’s great.

Hank Smith: 18:38 I’m kind of nervous like I’m in class here.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 18:40 So both are things that grow from small to big, small beginnings, great endings in terms of size. You have a very small mustard seed grows into a five-foot bush. You have this very small piece of yeast that leavens and is enough for 100 loaves. This unreasonable amount of flour for one person, this might be a place for us to reflect any significance to the abundance produced by this, you think.

Hank Smith: 19:03 It’s way bigger than it started. If you compare a mustard seed to the tree, the tree is massive compared to the seed, especially with the yeast. I don’t know who’s going to eat. How many loaves of bread did you say?

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 19:16 A hundred, about.

Hank Smith: 19:17 A hundred loaves of bread. This is for a lot of people.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 19:22 Just the abundance, it’s more than we’re ever going to need. So maybe the Kingdom of Heaven here, it’s something that increases in size. It’s something that provides shelter and protection. He mentioned the birds, for example and the trees. It provides a home and nourishment and abundance, more nourishment than any single person could ever need.

  19:39 So kind of these beautiful images. Anything else we would notice that you want to draw out there before I go to the second group?

John Bytheway: 19:45 Just the idea of growing and changing. Small to big, we both said that, but the idea of growth is in both of them. We’ve also heard leaven used as a negative thing and here, it’s a positive thing.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 19:58 Yeah. Good. Okay. All right. Second group. So verses 44 to 46, this is a treasure hidden in the field and a pearl of great price. So the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field. Though which when a man hath found, he hideth and for joy thereof, goeth and selleth all that he hath and buyeth that field.

  20:15 And then pearl of great price. The Kingdom of Heaven is likened to a merchant man seeking goodly pearls, who when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it. Okay. Common themes, what they might say to us about the Kingdom of Heaven.

John Bytheway: 20:30 Value.

Hank Smith: 20:31 Yeah, both sell all that they have.

John Bytheway: 20:35 Yeah, it’s worth everything. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 20:37 Excellent. Something to be valued, something to be sought after, something to be sacrificed for, rejoiced over. Maybe something that can be difficult to find a little bit.

Hank Smith: 20:48 Yeah. When he had found the pearl of great price, he was looking for it. He was seeking it.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 20:53 Yeah, exactly.

Hank Smith: 20:54 The field is large, I assume treasure hid in a field. The field is large and he’s looking for a treasure. Seems small compared to the field, but he’s willing to buy the whole field just for-

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 21:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 21:08 I don’t know if that means anything, but…

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 21:10 No, no. Again, I think we hit it. The Kingdom of Heaven, it’s something that we have to put in some work to get, it’s something to be sought after, to be valued, sacrificed for and rejoiced over when we find it.

  21:22 Okay, good. I’ll reiterate all these at the end, but just trying to get it all on the paper right now. All right. Third group Parable of the Net, Parable of the Wheat and Tares. So this is 47, 24 to 30 is wheat and tares, and then 47 to 50 is net.

  21:36 Okay. So the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered up every kind, which when it was full, they drew to shore and sat down and gathered the good into vessels. But the bad, they cast away.

  21:49 So it shall be at the end of the world, the angel shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just. And then the wheat and tares. I’m doing this one from the NRSV translation, just because I always for the life of me, I can’t get through the KJV without stumbling a bunch.

  22:04 This is just normal English that I can read better. Okay? Wheat and tares. The Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field, but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and then went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, the weeds appeared as well, and the slaves of the householder came and said to him, “Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where then did these weeds come from?”

  22:29 He answered, “An enemy has done this.” The slave said to him, “And do you want us to go after them?” But he replied, “No, for in gathering the weeds, you would uproot the wheat along with them. Let both of them grow together until the harvest. And at harvest time, I will tell the reapers, collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.” Themes between net and wheat and tares.

John Bytheway: 22:53 Variety of plants in one, variety of fish gathered of every kind there. And there’s a sorting that is coming, it sounds like. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 23:05 That’s what I noticed, that sorting at the end.

John Bytheway: 23:07 Sever the wicked from among the just.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 23:09 No. Yeah. Excellent. So maybe some kind of future event of sorting a place or time of reward, punishment, separation. If we’re thinking in terms of the Kingdom of Heaven, we might think something akin to the second coming or final judgment.

  23:23 Jesus actually says this in several places, that the Kingdom of Heaven is like an event. He says, “Repent. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. It’s coming soon.” So in summary, we have Jesus speaking about the Kingdom of Heaven in the following ways: it increases in size, it provides shelter and protection and a home and nourishment in abundance, it’s something to be valued, to be sought after, to be sacrificed for, to be rejoiced over even though it’s difficult to find sometimes.

  23:50 The Kingdom of Heaven implies a kind of sorting in which people are awarded according to their works and it’s a future event that is near. If we look elsewhere in scripture too, we see that the Kingdom of Heaven has an even broader connotation. So for example, Luke 17:20- 21, Jesus says that the Kingdom of God is something that exists within you. So it has another dimension as well. It’s the actual people that consist of this thing.

  24:15 My point here is that the Kingdom of Heaven is really multifaceted. It’s very hard to define concisely, but if I were to kind of draw out some prominent themes in Jesus’ description of it, it would be this. The message of the kingdom is that God has a great work to accomplish and that he wants you to be a part of this great work. In doing so, this is where true joy and flourishing and purpose are to be found.

  24:40 These parables in a sense, I think offer an invitation to participate in something that grows from small to large and produces fruit in abundance and it invites us to labor in such a way that brings joy and brings reward.

  24:53 If I were to kind of concisely offer an interpretation of what the Kingdom of Heaven, the message of Jesus’s parables here, it would be something like that.

Hank Smith: 25:02 That was fantastic, Daniel. That’s a lot of fun to put those together like that.

John Bytheway: 25:04 That’s awesome.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 25:05 I introduced that summary because this idea of accepting Christ’s invitation appears elsewhere in our chapters. The outlier in Matthew 13 and Luke 8 is the Parable the Sower. And the reason is it’s an outlier is it’s not explicitly linked to the Kingdom of Heaven, whereas the other parables are introduced, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like…” That’s not how this parable is introduced.

  25:25 But it does have some same theme. You have this guy, he plants seeds in different places, and because of where the seeds fall, some of them are more able to take root and produce fruit than others. The parable is also distinct in the sense that Jesus gives an interpretation of it. He frames it as representative of the different responses of those who hear the words of the kingdom, of the responses of those who hear this invitation to come and participate in this work.

  25:48 The message of the kingdom is preach to them and they respond differently, and he gives four different possible responses to the invitation to participate in this thing that grows from small to large, that brings joy, that bears fruit, that requires labor, et cetera.

  26:00 Okay, so the first person Matthew tells us, “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and doesn’t understand it, then cometh the wicked one and catcheth away that which was sewn in his heart. This is he which received this seed by the wayside.”

Hank Smith: 26:12 So this is Matthew 13:19.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 26:15 Right. So here we obviously see the importance of understanding and helping others to understand God’s word. Lack of understanding leaves a door open for Satan, according to verse 19. I think that’s fairly straightforward, but it does get a little more complex as we go on.

  26:29 Verse 20, let me do this in the NRSV, just because it’s a little bit more clear. “As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. Yet such a person has no root but endures only for a while. And when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, that person immediately falls away.”

  26:49 You’ll notice that that translation cleans up a little bit of some of the more archaic language in the KJV. So for example, “He that heareth the word and anon with it, with joyeth receiveth it anon.” I don’t know what that means, but by and by. These are both from the same Greek word euthus, which is immediately.

  27:07 Notice first that this person doesn’t just hear the word, but he receives it. So unlike the first guy, the understanding seems to be there and something is happening even beyond this hearing and understanding. They’re also receiving. The word translated as receive in this passage comes from the Greek word lambano, which can also mean to lay hold of something in order to use it. We get a sense that the disposition or attitude that this person has towards the message.

  27:32 It’s not just, “I heard the words.” It’s not just, “I cognitively comprehend what’s going on.” It’s that I take this into me with the intent to do something with it, and that’s what makes a difference. There’s an intent to apply. It’s more active. And this is important because as we get to the person in whom the seed bears fruit, this act of receiving, this is going to be a prerequisite to that.

  27:52 Just as an aside, if any of you guys or your listeners are interested in understanding better the range of meaning that different Greek words have, so the New Testament was originally written in Greek, translated into English. There’s a website called netbible.org. It’s free, and it’s helpful because on the left column, there’s the English translation of the New Testament or the Old Testament. And on the right column, you can click the word Greek and any word you hover over in English, it illuminates in Greek.

  28:18 And then you click on the Greek word and it tells you all the different things that that Greek word can mean. So if you see a verb like, “He that receives the word.” That’s he in whom the fruit comes out. It’s like, well, what does it mean to receive exactly? And you look up all the different things that that word receive can mean, and the meaning just explodes. And you’re like, “Oh, now I have a better sense for what Jesus was trying to convey when Matthew used this word.”

Hank Smith: 28:40 So that’s netbible.org.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 28:42 Right.

Hank Smith: 28:43 Got it. This is really good.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 28:46 This is something I have my students do when we read… Jesus commands that we should love our neighbor. It’s like, well, what exactly does it mean to love? And we look up the word we see that means welcomed into communion and embrace and all these different connotations, and we just kind of see, “Oh, this is all these things this word can mean,” and it gives us a better sense for what do I need to do? And what exactly was Jesus saying?

  29:07 And then the problem with this person obviously is that he’s unable to endure tribulation, persecution. It offends him or causes him to stumble or fall away. He’s scandalized by it. His problem is that he doesn’t respond properly to tribulation and persecution. You guys have any thoughts on what the proper response is to that such that we don’t fall away, that we don’t stumble, that we’re not scandalized?

Hank Smith: 29:30 I’ve thought a lot about this one and what this might look like as I’ve been teaching it through the years. You’re not hard-hearted you don’t have this sidewalk. It’s hard to grow a garden on the driveway. That’s verse 19. This one isn’t that way, but something is stopping the roots from going deep.

  29:47 I’ve thought before, perhaps this could be someone who the gospel isn’t going into their private life. Maybe it’s in their public life, it’s above ground, it’s really flourishing, but maybe inside it’s not taking root.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 30:02 Like a draw close to me with your lips, but your hearts are far from me kind of thing?

Hank Smith: 30:05 Yeah. Kind of thing, something like that where… Because it sounds like the word received means they really intended to do something with it. I don’t want to put a bad motive on them, but something is stopping those roots from going deep because I noticed that the sun comes out and the sun should be good for the plant, the tribulation and persecution, if he has deep roots, the sun will be good, but the roots just aren’t there. How did I do? Did I do okay? I’m nervous that I’m getting a D or something.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 30:33 No, no. Again, there’s not a single answer to… The value of this is that we can use them to explore different options. One of the things that stuck out to me is Matthew uses the word euthus or immediately, translated in the KJV as anon and by and by twice. He says, “He has received it immediately. And then when persecution and opposition came, he fell away immediately.”

  30:55 Do you think there’s any correlation between the quickness with which he received the word and the quickness of his fall? Do you think maybe there’s something there or am I just reading too much into it?

Hank Smith: 31:06 John, what do you think? I’ll let you try.

John Bytheway: 31:08 The thing I loved about this one is there’s a couple of footnotes, 21B to Doctrine & Covenants section 40 and 22A is section 39 and both of those are about this character in church history who comes and goes really quickly, Hank, and that’s a James Coville.

Hank Smith: 31:25 Yeah, I remember him.

John Bytheway: 31:26 Yeah. Do you remember in the revelations in context, and it talks about he was all excited at first and then the cares of this world, it kind of names the weeds in verse 22, the weeds that are possible.

Hank Smith: 31:39 You’re moving ahead to the next one, John.

John Bytheway: 31:41 Yeah, I know.

Hank Smith: 31:42 You are not being-

John Bytheway: 31:42 I know. I shouldn’t do that.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 31:45 And again, though, just to be clear, I’m not looking for a specific answer, but these are the questions I have going into this, and I feel like part of the interpretation process is like, “Well, what about…” It’s turning the kaleidoscope and saying, “Well, what does it look like if we focus on these words?”

  31:59 And as you were talking this idea of a… We all understand what it’s like to get super jazzed about the gospel, and then that fades when you get out of the fireside. And then you go back to TikTok or whatever.

  32:10 Elder Bednar who describes these people as kind of spiritual spurters. I don’t remember if you remember that talk. Let me read a quote from him. He says, “A spiritual spurter is one who is given to short bursts of spectacular effort, followed by frequent and lengthy periods of rest. While a big spurt may appear to be impressive in the short run, steadiness and small things over time is far more effective and far less dangerous and produces far better results.”

  32:32 The question becomes how do we translate this fire that we feel at the beginning into something that’s lasting, into something that’s enduring? This seems to be a problem maybe that this guy has. He was super jazzed. He accepted it with his whole heart, but not in a way that was lasting, not in a way that sustained him. That’s kind of my read on it at least.

Hank Smith: 32:51 Yeah. Was that talk at the women’s conference talk back in 2011?

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 32:56 Yeah, I think so.

Hank Smith: 32:57 Okay. We can put that on our show notes.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 32:59 Sounds good. So any other comments on that one before we move to the next person?

John Bytheway: 33:02 I like the word received, maybe I’m seeing more than is there, but when I think of a wedding reception, you’re receiving guests, there’s a receiving line, you’re allowing it in and it sounds like more than just the seeds happen to fall here, happen to fall there. Some received it.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 33:21 It’s more active than passive. Also, in terms of how one can avoid stumbling when these persecutions inevitably arise, a few things I would say. First expect them as a consequence of your discipleship rather than as evidence of your unfaithfulness or the imperfection of God’s plan.

  33:37 There’s really more in scripture that suggests disciples are going to go through some stuff than there is to say that discipleship means your life’s going to be all peaches and cream.

John Bytheway: 33:45 Absolutely.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 33:46 There are books called The Suffering Self because it’s this idea that in the gospels, in the scriptures, to be a good person is to invite opposition. And that’s something we have to accept. That’s probably not how you want to start a first discussion, but it’s a reality of…

John Bytheway: 34:01 Isn’t that perfect for the whole idea of a garden is opposition. There’s going to be weeds?

Hank Smith: 34:08 Constant weeding.

John Bytheway: 34:09 There’s going to need to be maintenance.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 34:12 The wind’s going to come.

John Bytheway: 34:13 It’s reminding me of the hunger and thirst after righteousness. Well plants, hunger and thirst, and that has to be taken care of every day or they get weak and they die.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 34:21 Yeah, exactly. Just this idea too, that even in this opposition, God doesn’t expect it to endure it on our own. His whole plan is in sending his Son is with the goal that He can help us when we need it, when we reach out to him and we can see our oppositions and our persecutions as opportunities for intimacy with God.

  34:39 They can be technologies for having a closer relationship with him if we respond in the right way, which unfortunately this person didn’t, even though he’s made up so it doesn’t matter. But yeah.

Hank Smith: 34:49 I think it comes back to the sun. He says later, because in the original parable he said, “When the sun was up, they were scorched. And because they had no root, they withered away.” What you said there, my tribulations, the difficulty of being a disciple can lead me to Christ if I have the roots. If the roots are in-

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 35:10 The sun’s necessary, right?

Hank Smith: 35:11 Yeah. It’s good for the plant.

John Bytheway: 35:13 Yeah. I’m glad you said roots, Hank, because roots take time and that’s taking time element, you can get really excited about things right at first, but what will allow you to withstand the sun and the heat of the day and persecution is roots.

  35:28 You can’t rush that. Roots take time and they take continual nourishment, I guess. Maybe I’m going too far, but I like how often I’ve underlined roots every time Jesus used it in the first part of the chapter and also in the interpretation. I think yeah, we’ve got to be rooted and grounded to use Paul’s phrase.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 35:48 Yeah, excellent. We’re doing it guys. This is good.

John Bytheway: 35:51 That’s how it’s meant to be done.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 35:56 And again, John said, I hope I’m not going too far or something like that. We recognize Jesus gives an interpretation of this, but at the same time, that could be a springboard for truth.

John Bytheway: 36:03 It was downright parabolic there for a second.

Hank Smith: 36:06 Nice job. You lived up to your name.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 36:10 All right. So what the first guy doesn’t understand, the second guy understands and receives, but no roots. Third guy, so this is verse 22, “He also that receives seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word and becometh unfruitful.”

  36:28 All right. So here he receives the world, but his care of the world is the problem. Now, often in scripture, when we see this word, world, we see it as having kind of a negative connotation. We’re not supposed to be of the world or worldly or something like it. We acquit it to sinful.

  36:41 I looked up all the instances of this in the book of Matthew and Matthew doesn’t seem to use the word in this sense. What he seems to be saying here isn’t like he’s concerned with sinful things, it’s just he has anxiety over or worries about life, making money, taking care of his family, just like normal stuff that we have to do which raises the question, what is the proper attitude to have towards the things that we need to be mindful of, but only to a certain degree.

  37:05 We all know we shouldn’t be focusing on sin, but we are commanded to take care of our families. We’re commanded to work, we’re commanded to be healthy. But again, there’s a line between when we go too far with that. How do we interact with these carers in a way that’s not going to lead us to not be fruitful, so to speak?

John Bytheway: 37:23 It sounds like the answer comes out of the Sermon on the Mount. Is that what you’re thinking?

Hank Smith: 37:27 Yeah. We had a podcast earlier with Dr. Lili Anderson, I think it was verse 34 of Matthew 6. “Take therefore no worry for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” So

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 37:44 Let me read that with the NRSV since I didn’t understand what that meant.

Hank Smith: 37:48 Okay.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 37:49 “So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today.”

Hank Smith: 37:54 Yeah, so it’s almost a commandment there where the Savior’s saying, “Look, worry is not going to help you in what I’m asking you to do, being constantly anxious.” Now, I want to be obviously sensitive because some people I know deal with anxiety and they don’t choose it. I don’t think that’s what the Savior’s talking about is stop being so anxious. Oh, okay. Thank you. That really helped everything. I hadn’t thought of that.

John Bytheway: 38:19 But it really helps because you use that netbible.org, you will see. I have an old-fashioned thing, you guys, it’s called a book and it’s called a Parallel.

Hank Smith: 38:29 You’re not using a website?

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 38:30 You whipper snappers.

John Bytheway: 38:31 It’s a parallel new. “You young folks out there.” It has eight bible translations in a book, and King James is the only one that uses thought there. All the rest say worry. In fact, footnote 25B says Greek for anxious concern is what we’re talking about. And so of course you’re going to think about it, but I mean it sounds like the opposite of faith. The Lord’s telling us have some faith about this. It’ll work out.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 38:59 What would somebody have to do for you to say you’re worrying too much? Because I mean, obviously all of us are concerned about where our paychecks… are we going to be able to take care of our… pay our…. But at what point is it too much?

John Bytheway: 39:09 That’s such a good question and that’s why I like the difference between thinking and worrying and thinking is something I can do something about right now. Worry could be worry for the future. Regret is concerned with the past, but what can I do right now? And that’s what I think that confusing phrase, “The insufficient unto the day is the evil thereof is like what?” There’s enough stuff today. Just think about that. Yeah, that in King James throws me too. I’m like, “What?”

Hank Smith: 39:38 I would say also that he connects the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches. To me that’s easier to see. I’m a fan of what’s called the Contemporary English Version just because it speaks my language.

John Bytheway: 39:52 That’s in my book too, Hank.

Hank Smith: 39:55 Oh, it is?

John Bytheway: 39:55 Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith: 39:56 It says, “The seeds that fell among the thorn bushes are also people who hear the message, but they start worrying and the needs of this life and are fooled by the desire to get rich.” Maybe that’s the point where it’s gone too far is you’ve bought into this idea, bought in. That’s funny. You’ve bought into this idea that your money is going to solve your problems. More money is going to solve your problems.

John Bytheway: 40:18 Hank, I like that you said that, money’s going to solve your problems, because I like to ask how are riches deceitful? That always is a fun discussion to have and you just hit one of them. If I had money, all my problems would be solved. Well, some of them might be. But how are riches deceitful is an interesting discussion to have.

Hank Smith: 40:39 It is.

John Bytheway: 40:40 I came across a book called Money for Nothing and it was about people who’d won the lottery in Michigan. A bunch of these people said they won a million dollars and not everybody, but a number of them said, “This is the worst thing that’s ever happened to me.”

Hank Smith: 40:55 Oh, really?

John Bytheway: 40:57 One of them said, “I made some investments. They went bad. I spend every day now with lawyers and lawsuits and it’s the worst thing.” Another couple said, “People treat us differently and we went to the mom and pop grocery store, they used to give us extra apples or oranges and now they don’t.”

  41:15 And it was fascinating to read these stories about… To me it was just put it under the heading of deceitfulness of riches. It was fascinating, but I think I could do better at it. Don’t you, Hank? You think you could do better at it.

Hank Smith: 41:28 Yeah. You give me the million dollars.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 41:33 If you’re listening, Michigan Lottery.

Hank Smith: 41:37 I would say, “Lord, give me this mountain. Give me this trial.”

John Bytheway: 41:42 Hank, I know you have a bunch of funny quotations about happiness and wealth. Money doesn’t buy happiness, but what Hank?

Hank Smith: 41:50 Yeah. Well, I wrote a book on happiness that sold dozens of copies mostly to my mom. But I did learn a lot about this, that money can really improve someone’s life at poverty level. Money can really take someone out of those anxieties and those worries and put a roof over their head and give them medicine and food and really can make a difference.

  42:09 But when you get up above a certain amount, it really kind of levels off. It doesn’t impact your happiness at all. People have said before, they just couldn’t believe that a person that makes a million dollars has the same amount of happiness as someone who makes 100 thousand dollars. And I’m like… I’ve had people say to me, “Those people just don’t know where to shop.” Or, “Then I’d be unhappy in some really nice places.”

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 42:33 I know.

John Bytheway: 42:34 You can look for happiness faster in a really nice car.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 42:42 I know.

Hank Smith: 42:42 I’ll be crying in my Ferrari then. I think what we’re hitting here in verse 22 is an important thing to stop and think about.

John Bytheway: 42:51 And care of this world. How do people see me? How do I want to be seen? What’s my reputation? What kind of vibe am I giving? Well, all the image, all that stuff could go under that heading too.

  43:04 I love that Jesus not only talked about our heart, the soil is our heart, but some of the possible weeds, I think is a really good place to go. What are some of the possible weeds that could crowd out the gospel being planted in me?

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 43:19 Back to your question about the riches too, in what sense did they deceive us? There is this kind of seductive thing about riches, like the idea that, oh, it’s going to solve our problems, or everybody wants to get rich or whatever. But there’s a sense in which it can also pervert our sense of self, which is to say it can deceive us into thinking that we’re better than other people. Correspondingly deceive us into thinking that people are less than we are.

John Bytheway: 43:40 The Zoramites.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 43:41 It can distract us from what’s most important. And they’re tricky in the sense that we tend to view them as our own as opposed to Gods. If you look in Mosiah, everything that you have belongs to God. We are not owners of our riches. We are stewards, and as such, we are accountable to God for what we do with those things. They’re not ours to do what we want with them. They’re ours to act as a steward over and God is the master of them. That’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 44:05 Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk in April of 2015, General Conference called The Parable of the Sower, and he said, “Wherever we are in our spiritual journey, whatever our state of conversion, we are all tempted by this.” I like that he points that out, everyone is probably going to fall into this temptation. When attitudes or priorities are fixed on the acquisition, use or possession of property, we call that materialism.

  44:27 “So much has been said,” he said, “and written about materialism. That little needs to be added here. Those who believe in what has been called the theology of prosperity are suffering from the deceitfulness of riches. The possession of wealth or significant income is not a mark of heavenly favor and their absence is not evidence of heavenly disfavor.” He goes on to talk more about it. Some good clarifying comments.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 44:52 Yeah. Excellent. Should we go to the final person?

Hank Smith: 44:56 Yeah. This is the one that worked.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 44:57 Yeah. So this is verse 23. He that received the seed into the good ground is he that hears the word and understands it, which also bears fruit and brings forth some 100 fold, some 60 and some 30.

  45:10 Okay. So obviously he’s receiving it in a way he understands it, he hears it and one would assume he responds to opposition and temptations in a good way.

John Bytheway: 45:18 Just to back up what you say there, there’s a little JST note, “Understandeth.” And it adds, “And endureth.” So it isn’t just that he gets it, but he tries to live it and then endures.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 45:29 Right. So one thing that stuck out to me is the amounts of fruit and the order in which they appear. Rhetorically, if you’re trying to show that this guy was great, so he bore a lot of fruit, you’d probably go from small to large.

  45:43 But he goes, “The people who do this, they understand they bear fruit. Some bring forward 100, some 60 and some 30.” So it goes in descending order. I don’t know if I’m reading too much into that, but you think that’s significant at all? Is it about bearing a lot of fruit or is it about something else, so to speak?

Hank Smith: 45:59 That’s fascinating, that it does go in reverse order.

John Bytheway: 46:02 It always reminds me of other parables, like the talents that they brought forth different amounts and that was okay. I was going to ask you that actually today, if there’s any symbolic meaning in those numbers or that there’s three numbers that these are kingdoms of glory or something. I’ve heard all sorts of things.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 46:20 Yeah, yeah.

Hank Smith: 46:21 We don’t have the Savior’s tone, but I suspect and I wish I could hear him tell the story in English by the way, that would be helpful. But I wondered if he says some 100 fold, some 60, some 30. Or if he says some 100 fold, some 60, some 30 as if there’s no difference between the three. I just like that it’s bringing forth fruit.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 46:45 Some bore apples, some bore oranges, some bore celery. As if there’s no qualitative. And that’s kind of where I’m coming from. It’s less about the amount and more about the difference.

  46:54 We all respond differently to the call of the gospel and bear different fruit, and that’s okay. Jesus doesn’t say that the more fruit, the better.

Hank Smith: 47:01 He doesn’t say that. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 47:02 Yeah. You’re going to bear different fruit. Some of you are going to do 100, some of you are going to do 60, some are going to go do 30 and that’s fine.

Hank Smith: 47:08 They’re all good.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 47:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 47:10 The important part is that they received it and understood it and endured.

Hank Smith: 47:15 And the fruit came. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 47:18 So I think that’s kind of a beautiful message to this idea that we’re going to respond and we’re going to bear different fruit. That’s the plan. That’s not our weakness, that we don’t bear as much as the other person.

Hank Smith: 47:26 Maybe the principle there is don’t compare. “I wish I was more like my neighbors who do so much for the gospel, and I’m here just barely doing my gospel doctrine calling.”

John Bytheway: 47:38 Trying to keep up with 100 folds across the street there.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 47:41 Right. Exactly.

Hank Smith: 47:44 Yeah. And it can be a certain time of your life. I’ve thought before, there’s time where you give everything all your time and energy. So you might be 30 now, maybe sometime in your life you’re going to be 100. Maybe sometime in your life you’re going to be 60. There’s different times of life that could correspond to the amount of fruit.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 47:59 All right. In summary, Jesus has kind of given us a model for an ideal response to hearing his word, to hearing the message of the kingdom. We listen, we understand, we receive it thoughtfully and deliberately and informedly with the intent to apply it.

  48:14 We don’t allow things to distract us from it. We acknowledge that the fruits of our engagement with the gospel message will look different and that’s okay. I think this is kind of one message we might reasonably derive from these parables.

Hank Smith: 48:27 Absolutely. I had my students at BYU saying, “Let’s check our own heart. Let’s not look around and go, ‘Well, they’re a rocky soil. Oh, that guy’s definitely a weedy soil.'” Check your own heart. If you need to remove some rocks, remove some rocks. If you need to get rid of some weeds. I’ve asked my students, what app did you delete because it took too much of your time? I’ve got all sorts of answers, Instagram and-

John Bytheway: 48:54 Hey, this candy isn’t going to crush itself, Hank.

Hank Smith: 48:57 Yeah. Yesterday when I asked this question, it was Clash Royale. So many said, “Oh yeah, it just took all my time.” So they were weeding their own life. I think that’s what, if you look at yourself, that can be really helpful. If you look at others, it’s probably… I don’t think maybe that’s the point of the parable is to say, “Well, John has a hard heart. I’m sure glad I’m good soil.”

John Bytheway: 49:20 No, I kind of do. It makes me sad because the hard ground is called by the wayside and it just makes me sad. That metaphor is right in there.

Hank Smith: 49:30 Yeah. The Lord threw that in there just for you, John.

John Bytheway: 49:32 Can I add something about this? Is that we commonly call it the Parable of the Sower. Elder Talmage and Elder McConkie have called it the Parable of the Four Kinds of Soil, which kind of is more what it’s about, than not really the sewer. He comes and goes, but it’s the four kinds of soil where it lands.

  49:49 Like you’re saying, each of us has to say… I think I’ve heard Elder Bruce C. Hafen, who’s been on the podcast, call it our heartland, which I thought was a cool way to put it. It’s our heart and it’s land and this is about the four different types of heartland. And maybe we need to get rocks out. Maybe we need to get weeds out and prepare for planting better.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 50:11 Yeah. Excellent. So moving on through the story, Jesus certainly recognizes that there’ll be people who don’t understand what he’s saying because of the way he’s saying it in parables. And in fact, again, as we mentioned earlier, that’s part of the point. But he also suggests that his intent is to not keep them in ignorance. It’s not that, “Oh, you guys don’t understand, so you’re not going to get this.” Rather it’s encourage them to learn how to listen.

  50:32 He says in Luke 8:16-18, and I’m reading the NRSV again. No one after lighting a lamp hides it under a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a lampstand so that those who enter may see the light for nothing is hidden, that will not be disclosed. And he says this right after he gives a bunch of hidden stuff. Nor is anything secret that will not become known and come to light.

  50:55 Pay attention or then pay attention to how you listen. And the reason I say this is because it can seem kind of counterintuitive that… Or just like if we were to ask why Jesus gives parables, one of the reasons likely wouldn’t be, “Oh, he wants to hide stuff from people.”

  51:08 Jesus doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who wants to hide truth from people. I think this verse allows us to see what his intent is here. It’s like well, maybe the fact that you don’t understand this should spur or spark your desire to learn differently. It should spark your desire to want to know more. Nothing I’m saying that it is not going to be made clear at some point, but you have to learn how to listen.

John Bytheway: 51:29 Do you know what I love about that, is he gave the Parable of the Sower and immediately, it doesn’t sound like everybody but the disciples came and said, “Why are you speaking in parables?” And they’re the ones who got to hear the interpretation. They got another level to it. And starting in verse here, the Parable of the Sower in verse 18, and I’ve always found it interesting that Jesus quotes the calling of Isaiah in answer to, “Why are you speaking in parables?” Where that’s verse 15. “This people’s heart is waxed gross. Their ears are dull of hearing. Their eyes, they have closed, lest at any time…”

  52:10 This phrase is just the gospel. “…they should see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and should be converted and I should heal them.” I’ve noticed that that calling of Isaiah appears in every one of the gospels and in the Book of Acts. So it must have been something that they had thought about a lot because it sounds like exactly what the Savior hopes will do with the gospel, see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, be converted and be healed, which is just kind of a beautiful way of putting it all.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 52:46 Yeah. Excellent. Jesus finishes up in chapter 13 by telling another parable that’s a bit more difficult to understand, but which the message seems to be that essentially it’s important to recognize the authority of what God has revealed through scripture and what God reveals through Christ.

  52:59 This is the Parable of the Treasures, new and old in 51-53. And then you have some people rejecting him and Jesus saying, “A prophet is not without honor save in his own country and in his own house.” So he’s having not as much success as he’d like among people who know him best, who grew up with him. That kind of concludes the parables there.

John Bytheway: 53:17 I love the reaction. “Whence hath this man wisdom?”

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 53:22 He’s like, “Man, I changed your diapers. I know you.”

Hank Smith: 53:26 Is this Matthew’s version of the Nazareth rejection that Luke gives us. So in Luke 4, they were offended, which is what he said would happen. He becomes offended back in verse 21.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 53:41 Yep. I think it’s the same verbs, skandalizo. Yep.

Hank Smith: 53:43 Yeah. Oh wow.

John Bytheway: 53:45 Scandalous. That was an interesting word. Say it again.

Dr. Daniel Becerra: 53:49 Skandalizo. So scandalized or offended or they’re caused to stumble. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 53:56 Please join us for part two of this podcast.