Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM. A weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:15 As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:19 Hello my friends. Welcome to a new episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith, I’m your host. And I’m here with my co-host who I will describe this way, among them that are born of women, there hath not risen a greater co-host than John Bytheway. And I think of them that are born of women, that’s a pretty high percentage, John. So you should feel wonderful about this description of you.

John Bytheway: 00:45 My mom’s right here on my desk. So she’s saying, “Thanks, Hank.”

Hank Smith: 00:50 Well, I was actually reading in Matthew 11 and that’s what Jesus says about John the Baptist, “Of them that are born of women, there’s none greater than John the Baptist.” We’re going to spend a lot of time in Matthew 11-12 today and Luke 11. We needed an expert and a friend to join us. Who is it, John?

John Bytheway: 01:07 We’re really glad to have John Hilton III back with us again. And we have read his extensive bio. He sent me a nice short one to use today because everybody loves him and is familiar with him. John Hilton III is a professor in religious education at Brigham University with degrees from Harvard and BYU. He’s written many books including The Founder of Our Peace, and Considering the Cross, which we’ve talked about before on here. He loves snowboarding, performing magic tricks. Sometimes at the same time. He’s also the author of the podcast and free video course, Seeking Jesus, which we wholeheartedly love and support, which you can find by searching YouTube or your favorite podcast app. And John, tell us about your family one more time and then we’ll start.

Dr. John Hilton III: 01:56 My wife Lani and I have six kids. Our oldest Levi is 21. He’s at BYU, just off his mission in Georgia. And we have a daughter who’s serving a mission in England. And then we have four younger children ranging between the ages of nine and 18.

Hank Smith: 02:11 Yeah, it’s a full house.

John Bytheway: 02:13 Awesome.

Dr. John Hilton III: 02:13 Thank you. So great to be here.

John Bytheway: 02:15 John Hilton III. I always say he’s so great they made three of him. This is fantastic. We love having you here, John.

Dr. John Hilton III: 02:23 So Hank, John, I kind of wanted to start out with something that might seem like an unrelated question, but it’ll tie in. What are your favorite movie or video depictions of Jesus Christ?

John Bytheway: 02:34 One of the first times I think in my life I ever really felt the spirit was with my parents watching Ben-Hur. Do you remember that movie? It takes about three weeks to watch it. I think it’s like four hours long or something. But they have a depiction of the Sermon on the Mount. They don’t show Jesus’s face. You just see this figure come walking out and they just handle it so beautifully. And then also, if you’ve seen the movie, you know that Judah Ben-Hur, the main character, the Charlton Heston character, he is unjustly sent to the gallows and everything and they’re pulling the prisoners along. He’s all chained up and he falls down and they say no water for him. And he falls down and says, “God, help me.” Just whispers it. And all of a sudden somebody starts giving him water and it’s Jesus, He’s in Nazareth. And he starts giving him water. That’s one of my favorites. But they don’t even show his face in that one. I think that’s the first one I thought of. But I know that there’s lots. So what do you think, Hank?

Hank Smith: 03:39 Well, since you went to the past, I’ll go to the present. I really am loving this series called The Chosen. I’m sure both of you have seen this. But I find myself watching these episodes and moved to tears frequently. I find it captivating. I just think it’s wonderful.

Dr. John Hilton III: 03:57 I agree. I love film depictions about Jesus. And one of my favorites is called The Gospel of John. You can find it for free on YouTube if you just search The Gospel of John. It’s a three-hour movie and it’s word for word the Gospel of John.

Hank Smith: 04:11 Oh wow.

Dr. John Hilton III: 04:11 It’s with a different Bible translation, but there’s no words that are added or taken away and we’re not studying John this week. But for future weeks, if you’re reading John 6 or John 7, I think that could be really fun to watch the video depiction along with it. Now I bring this up because I was thinking along the same lines as you, Hank, where I’ve been loving The Chosen and there are several clips from The Chosen that are drawn from the chapters that we’re reading this week. And I don’t know about you, but if I’m teaching, we’re doing a little morning devotional or gospel study time as a family, I probably don’t have time to show a whole episode of The Chosen, but there’s lots of short little clips, a five-minute clip here or there that really are scripturally accurate.

  04:55 But one of the challenges I think that… Well, first let me ask you this. I have heard some people say, “Well, you shouldn’t show your kids The Chosen or you shouldn’t watch it because it’s going to give them ideas because it’s not 100% accurate.” And that’s even more with Ben-Hur, right, John Bytheway, you’re feeling the Holy Ghost, but did Jesus actually give water to this guy? We don’t know. So what do you guys think? Is this a realistic danger that we should be worried about or are some people stressing too much about it?

Hank Smith: 05:22 Now, this is just my opinion, anything that brings my kids closer to the Lord, because they’re really enjoying The Chosen and it’s something that’s engaging them in the life of Jesus. So maybe I’m being too simplistic, but I love the idea of anything bringing them closer to the Lord. So I’m not overly concerned about it being 100% accurate as it is bringing people to an interest in the New Testament.

Dr. John Hilton III: 05:50 One of the things I think too is that it’s a great opportunity for us as parents or teachers to talk about Jesus. So for example, recently in season three, episode three of The Chosen, there’s a long scene from Luke 4, it’s Jesus’ first sermon in Nazareth. So as a family, we read the sermon from Luke 4, and then we watched the video and then we can talk about what was added and what was taken out. And my kids, they’re obviously interested in a video depiction. First of all, I agree with you Hank, anything that’s bringing us to Jesus is going to be great. But I also think people are going to watch The Chosen or Ben-Hur or other video depictions and it’s going to shape the way that they think about Jesus. So let’s talk about that rather than hiding it or saying, well, let’s not do it. Let’s do a more careful study with the scriptures.

  06:38 Again, I bring this up because several of the pastors, including this first one we’ll talk about in Matthew 11, are depicted very recently in The Chosen. And for any parents out there and you’re thinking to yourself, “Well, I’d love to show these little clips, but how do I know which season or which episode these are coming from”? I’ve made a little collection. So if you go to johnhiltoniii.com/thechosen, I’ve broken it down by the Come Follow Me weeks and I have exact little video clips. So if you just want to watch the scene with the disciples of John the Baptist talking to Jesus, boom, that’s there. Or you just want to watch plucking grain on the Sabbath that’s there. And I hope that this can be a helpful resource for people who want to use The Chosen to teach and to draw people into the scriptures. Because ultimately, it’s not about Ben-Hur, it’s not about The Chosen, it’s really about Jesus Christ. And if we can get into the scriptures, I do think this can be a great avenue to get into the scriptures.

  07:34 So maybe with that, let’s dive into Matthew 11. This is a really interesting story with Jesus and John the Baptist. So we know that Jesus and John the Baptist were connected from the womb, right? You’ve got pregnant Mary meeting pregnant Elisabeth, and John the Baptist jumps for joy in the womb. Sometimes we have in our minds this idea that Jesus Christ and John the Baptist were close friends growing up, they’re closely connected. And that could be true, but we just don’t know it for sure. The King James version refers to Mary and Elisabeth as cousins, but the Greek word just means a relative. So maybe they were cousins, maybe Elisabeth was Mary’s aunt. They could have been second cousins. But there definitely is some kind of relationship.

  08:16 As far as we know in scripture, the first time that they see each other in person is at the baptism. And it’s clear at Christ’s baptism, like you were talking about a couple of weeks back with Professor Huntsman, that John the Baptist or John the Prophet recognizes Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God. So it’s sort of strange in Matthew 11, this is at the beginning of verse two, when John heard in prison, he’s now been imprisoned by Herod Antipas shortly after Christ’s baptism. When John had heard in prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples and they said into him, “Art thou he that should come or do we look for another?” In that phrase, “He that should come.” That actually is significant because back in Matthew 3:11, John had said, “He that cometh after me is mightier than I whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.”

  09:10 So that phrase, “He that cometh”, suggests it’s a connection between these two passages. It’s sort of like John the Baptist is saying, “Hey wait, are you really the guy that we were prophesying about?” So let’s just pause it and think, why would John the Baptist send disciples to Jesus to ask if Jesus is the Messiah? Because he already knew that. So one of the things that I often heard growing up was something like, “Well, John already knows that Jesus is the Messiah. So he is sending these two disciples to Jesus because he’s hoping they’ll start hanging around with Jesus and follow the Savior.” And that’s one possibility. But the text itself suggests something different. Because in Matthew 11:4, Jesus tells John’s disciples, “Go and tell John what you hear and see.” In other words, he doesn’t say like, “Oh great, I’m so glad you came to me.” He’s like, “No, go back, deliver this message.” And in verse seven, John’s disciples actually do go back to talk to him.

  10:10 So that takes us to another possible reason why John the Baptist sends his disciples to Jesus and say, “Are you the person that should come or do we look for another?” And I wonder if maybe John the Baptist is languishing in prison and it’s hard and he’s starting to lose hope. And maybe he’s even doubting a bit like, “Jesus, I thought you were the Messiah. I thought you were coming to bring in a new kingdom. And here I am in prison, what’s going on?” So Jesus says to John’s disciples, “Show John again those things which you do hear and see. The blind received their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear. The dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.”

  10:55 So that’s Matthew 11:4-5. And that list of healing miracles, those are all fulfilling prophecies from Isaiah. So in essence Jesus is saying, “Look, all of these miraculous deeds, they’re showing in fact that I am the Messiah.” So what do you guys think about this possibility that John the Baptist might have been losing hope in prison? Does that seem, I don’t know, to put down John the Baptist to you, or do you think that’s more of a message of hope? How do you see that possibility?

Hank Smith: 11:26 I, like you, have always thought John is saying he’s this great teacher. And I’ve had students come to me and say, “What’s the big deal about the crucifixion?” And I know I’ll be like, “Why don’t you go to John Hilton’s office and knock on his door and ask that exact same question.” And I’m not struggling, I’m just sending them because I know what you’re going to say to him. And I think that’s how I’ve always seen this story. I like this idea. It makes John very human and I can’t imagine being imprisoned. He probably wants to see these things and be part of it. I can imagine him breaking down and asking, “Is everything happening that I hope is happening? Is it real? Go and find out for me.” That’s fascinating, John.

Dr. John Hilton III: 12:09 And also when you think about it, who else has had a powerful witness of Jesus Christ but still struggled with moments of discouragement while in prison? And this could very well be a Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail.

Hank Smith: 12:21 Peter seems to go through this kind of thing too. Great connection.

Dr. John Hilton III: 12:26 Yeah, you mentioned like it humanizes John the Baptist a little bit, and I certainly don’t want to pull John the Baptist down. I’m not asserting that this is the case. But that does seem to be what the text is suggesting because the disciples come deliver a message, get a response, and then they go back to John the Baptist.

Hank Smith: 12:42 No, I always love a different take on stories that I’ve thought I’ve understood. So I’m a big fan of, “Let’s see it in this strain of thought. Let’s see this possibility.” I like this new idea, John. This is new to me and I like this idea because of, one, we’re looking at the text more closely, and two, John is a real person who may be struggling in prison like anyone else would, like Joseph Smith did, like you said.

Dr. John Hilton III: 13:07 Then there’s room now for you and me. I mean I know John Bytheway and Hank Smith never have hard times never struggle. But for most of us, that’s real life. Now if at one point in time I am struggling a little bit and I think, “Oh, look at me, I’m so weak, I’m struggling.” But actually no, there’s a series of powerful people who have gone before me who have gone through their own struggles, which can give me hope as I face difficulties of my own.

Hank Smith: 13:32 And Jesus seems okay with it. If this really is the case, Jesus seems okay with it. And he’s like, “I know he is struggling. Go back and tell him.”

Dr. John Hilton III: 13:40 And the verse that you alluded to at the very beginning, that then Jesus says, “Among them which are born of women, hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist.” So I do love that because what that’s saying is if John the Baptist is in fact doubting, that doesn’t scratch him off the list of Jesus’s all-time favorites.

Hank Smith: 13:57 Yeah.

Dr. John Hilton III: 13:57 He’s still saying, John the Baptist is great. So even if we’re struggling, it’s not like he’s like, “Scratch Hilton off the team.” He is like, “Okay, you’re still on my team. I still welcome you. I reach out to you.” And he doesn’t want us to be offended by him, but he’s reaching out with words of kindness.

Hank Smith: 14:14 It’s good to hear that I’m still Jesus’ second favorite, even though I’ve struggled at times. John the Baptist, then Hank, yeah, I’m sure.

Dr. John Hilton III: 14:24 This is one of those times where there’s a great five-minute clip from The Chosen where you can kind of see this. And what I wouldn’t do is again… This whole point, this podcast, The Chosen whatever, these are all resources to get us into the scriptures. So you might want to go back, reread Matthew 11:2-19, and then watch that clip from The Chosen and think, “Okay, what’s different? What’s the same? What’s added? And how does this visual depiction help shape the way…” And then think about it, “Is this in a good way or not how I’m thinking about this scene?”

Hank Smith: 14:54 Yeah. Speaking of podcasts, I don’t mean to go off on a little tangent here, but John, you have your own podcast, right?

Dr. John Hilton III: 15:00 Yeah, Seeking Jesus. So the idea is it’s a podcast just focused on learning all we can about Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 15:05 We’ll put the followHIM stamp of approval on Seeking Jesus by John Hilton. Go ahead, have everybody look that up. John Bytheway, did you have something?

John Bytheway: 15:14 Yeah, and this will be another school of thought on this from our friend, the late Robert J. Matthews. He wrote a lot about John the Baptist and loved John the Baptist. And this is what he said in a book called A Burning Light: The Life and Ministry of John the Baptist. He said, “The question they were to put to Jesus was for their edification, not for his own. John knew as no one else knew who Jesus was. And he had known it for a long time. He had had revelation from heaven to this effect. He had seen with his eyes, he had heard with his ears and he had the testimony of the Holy Ghost. The most satisfactory answer seems to be that John sent his disciples to question Jesus about his identity so that they themselves would at long last realize the truth of what John had been testifying.”

Dr. John Hilton III: 16:02 This is kind of what I heard growing up, but I couldn’t pinpoint it to those sources, John, like you found. So I do think it’s interesting to be able to hold both possibilities in our hands and search the scriptures and kind of see what is it that the text itself seems to be suggesting and what does the spirit guide us?

John Bytheway: 16:17 Yeah, we’ve talked about this before in here. I think the more I read and older I get, the more I use that phrase, “Well, one school of thought is this, and another school of thought is this. And another school of thought is this.” Without saying it has to be this or it has to be that. And I think that opens us up to some pondering and searching in that, which is good for us.

Hank Smith: 16:37 Yeah. It’s good to see all the sides of the story, could be, possibility. So I’m really grateful you did that, John.

Dr. John Hilton III: 16:44 Let’s shift gears. We’re going to see a theme throughout Matthew 11, Matthew 12, and Luke 11. And we’re going to come at this from lots of different angles. So I want to introduce it with a little analogy. Imagine one day you wake up and there’s this big hole in your backyard and it’s dangerous, the kids could fall into it, they could get hurt. So you don’t want anyone, the neighbors to hurt themselves. So you build a little fence around the hole to protect people. We can liken sin to the hole in your backyard. When people fall into the hole of sin, it hurts them spiritually. So to protect ourselves and others, we build little fences to keep us from falling into the hole of sin. So as a concrete example, we got the Word of Wisdom, part of which is don’t drink alcohol. So I might build a little fence around the Word of Wisdom saying, “I’m not even going to go to a bar.” Now it’s not a sin to go to a bar.

Hank Smith: 17:36 It’s not even breaking the Word of Wisdom to walk into a bar.

Dr. John Hilton III: 17:40 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 17:41 But I’m going to keep myself from falling into the hole. Okay.

Dr. John Hilton III: 17:43 Right. So maybe we could call the Word of Wisdom a core law. It’s a part of our temple recommend, it’s definitely something that we’re going to do. Whereas don’t go into a bar, that would be a fence law. And a fence law is something that prevents us from breaking the core law. And this idea of fence laws, it’s ancient and Jesus Christ is interacting with it throughout the gospel accounts. Early Jewish leaders had talked about the phrase, “Make a fence around the law”, as part of their directive to make several extra rules to keep people from breaking the commandments.

Hank Smith: 18:17 Is that what the oral law is?

Dr. John Hilton III: 18:19 Exactly. And our friend, the historian Josephus actually specifically points out the Pharisees as being a group of people that really adheres to this oral law or these fence laws. Josephus wrote, “The Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the law of Moses.” And once you are aware of this, you’ll see it all the time. For example, in Matthew 15:2 it says, “Then came to Jesus Pharisees saying, ‘Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders?'” So that phrase, tradition the elders, signals to us this is not the core law of Moses like The Ten Commandments that we’re talking about, but it’s some traditions, some oral laws or fence laws. And a lot of the Pharisees’ fence laws pertain to the Sabbath Day.

  19:09 So keeping the Sabbath Day holy, that’s a core law. It’s one of The Ten Commandments. But what does that actually mean to work on the Sabbath? So they would build some fences around it. Don’t start a fire, don’t put out a fire, don’t carry certain objects, don’t walk for far distances. These things don’t necessarily violate the Sabbath Day, but they’re fences. And so in these chapters, we’re going to see Jesus Christ interacting with fence laws. And maybe real quick, just before we  say, “Oh yeah, the Pharisees, they had a ton of fence laws.” We interact with fence laws all the time today. What kind of movies are okay to watch? What sort of modesty rules do you have? What kind of swimwear is appropriate? Can I go for a walk on the Sabbath? How about a drive? How about a boat ride? Where’s the line?

Hank Smith: 19:54 We do this with our kids in dating all the time. We don’t want them to break the law of chastity, so we set up dating rules, fence laws.

Dr. John Hilton III: 20:01 Exactly. And let’s be honest, sometimes these fence laws are really important. Hank, you and I were recently on a trip together and we were talking about our teenage kids and some fence laws that we have in place. And the fence laws are helpful. The challenge is if they start to dominate. And for example in the Come Follow Me manual for this week, at the very beginning it says, “In many ways the Pharisees and scribes had made worshiping Jehovah burdensome. They often emphasized strict rules over eternal truths. Rules about the Sabbath Day, which was meant to be a day of rest, were themselves a heavy burden. And then Jehovah himself came among his people. He taught them that the true purpose of religion is not to create burdens, but to relieve them. He taught that God gives us commandments, including the one to honor the Sabbath, not to oppress, but to bless us. Yes, the way to God is straight and narrow, but the Lord came to announce that we need not walk it alone.”

  21:03 Let’s dive back into Matthew 11. And what we’ll see is that there’s different ways that Christ talks about fence laws. There’s pros and cons to fence laws. But let’s start with a con. And that’s if we’re not careful, fence laws can start to be a heavy burden, like the Come Follow Me manual is describing. Imagine that there’s a cliff and there’s this beautiful overlook and it’s amazing, but you’re worried people might fall off the cliff. So you build a fence, but then what if someone hops that fence? So you build a taller fence and then maybe one more for good measure. So now people start driving to the overlook, and they’re like, “I thought this was supposed to be beautiful. All I can see is the fences.”

  21:40 I think if we take this idea, it can give us a different angle on a scripture we hear a lot. So in Matthew 11:28, Jesus says, “Come unto me all that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me. For I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” So normally when we read this first we think about we’re two oxen. I’m one ox, Jesus is the other. We’re yoked together. He’s going to help me carry my burdens. And that’s not a bad interpretation at all. But I want us to consider an additional one because right after this verse, and remember, chapter breaks are not part of the original, so there’s one continuous flow from Matthew 11:30 to Matthew 12:1. It’s a story about fence laws. Jesus is going to encounter some Pharisees who are mad about what he’s doing on the Sabbath Day.

  22:41 So right off the bat, there could be a connection between those passages. And then on another occasion, in Matthew 23, Jesus says, “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.” So in other words, they’re giving out lots of laws like Moses was doing, and Jesus says, “They bind heavy burdens grievous to be born.” So maybe there’s a connection between being heavy laden. “Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden.” And the Pharisees giving these heavy burdens. And there’s actually a similar passage in Luke 11:46, part of our reading this week. Jesus says, “Whoa unto you lawyers for ye laid men with burdens grievous to be born.”

  23:27 Now here’s what’s really interesting. In ancient times, the Pharisaical fence laws collectively were known as the yoke of the law. And we actually see something similar in Acts 15. If you remember in Acts 15, all of the apostles and others that they’ve gathered together to talk about which Jewish rules do Gentiles need to live. And then Peter says, partway through, “When there had been much disputing, Peter rose up and said unto to them, ‘Why tempt ye God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.'”

  24:08 So again, we see this idea that a yoke is referring to extra rules and regulations. So if we put all these different things we’ve been talking about together, maybe there’s a different way we can read Matthew 11:28-30, where Jesus is saying, “Come unto me all ye that are heavy laden.” You’re overwhelmed with so many fence laws, these extra rules and burdens, and they’re not really part of God’s law. “So come unto me. My yoke is easy. My burden is light.” My yoke is love God, love your neighbor, and let’s go. John, Hank, any thoughts on that?

John Bytheway: 24:41 What was that verse you said a minute ago after you said the Pharisees gave them the yoke of the law, then you had another one there, yoked?

Dr. John Hilton III: 24:48 Acts 15:10. Peter refers to all these extra rules as a yoke on the neck of the disciples.

John Bytheway: 24:54 I really appreciate this. It’s kind of like, “How do I remember all these rules? I’m not supposed to do this. I’m not supposed to do that.” And that wasn’t the intention. Those are fences they built. And I appreciate that they say to Jesus, “How come your disciples don’t keep the tradition of the elders?”

Dr. John Hilton III: 25:10 Yeah, that’s Matthew 15:2.

John Bytheway: 25:12 I love that Jesus makes sure that we see the difference between the commandments of God and the traditions of the elders. And that he points it out when they point it out there. That’s a tradition, that’s not part of the original commandment. But that’s the fence you put around the law. Anyway, I’d never heard that idea that this yoke could be the burdens the Pharisees placed by continuing to add to the law. That’s really cool.

Hank Smith: 25:40 And I think we need to be careful we don’t do this to our own families and that we don’t burden our children with so many laws that there’s no joy in the gospel. It’s all it’s heavy. It’s trying to remember everything you’re supposed to do. They’re like, “Can you give me a handbook that I can follow the Smith Handbook of Instruction for everything I’m supposed to do to make sure I’m keeping all the fence laws?” And the joy is in keeping the commandments.

Dr. John Hilton III: 26:05 In my mind. I can picture a woman and she feels the Holy Ghost prompt her to read the Book of Mormon for 30 minutes a day and she’s loving it and she’s feeling so good about it. And then in Relief Society, the teacher says, “I invite everyone to read all the General Conference talks over the next month.” So she starts working on that, and then her ministering sister comes and visits and says, “You know, you really should write down a tender mercy every day.” And then the high counselor’s like, “Everyone, make sure you’re doing the Come Follow Me studies and listening to the followHIM podcast every week.”

Hank Smith: 26:33 We like that fence law. That’s a good fence law.

Dr. John Hilton III: 26:36 And pretty soon what it should be, like you said, the joy in the commandments, studying the scripture should be bringing me closer to Jesus Christ, becomes a burdensome checklist and I feel like, “Oh, I can’t do it all and it’s stressful.” In this example, what I’m kind of broadly referring to as fence laws can also include good ways of inviting the spirit into our lives, but collectively speaking could become demoralizing when we realize, “I can’t do it all.”

  26:59 And there’s an interesting quote from Elder Uchtdorf on this. I’d love your thoughts. Elder Uchtdorf said, “Keeping the commandments may present a problem for some because there are so many shoulds and should nots that merely keeping track of them can be a challenge. Sometimes well-meaning amplifications of divine principles, many coming from uninspired sources, complicate matters further, diluting the purity of divine truth with manmade addenda. One person’s good idea, something that may work for him or her takes root and becomes an expectation.”

John Bytheway: 27:38 That’s really good.

Hank Smith: 27:40 We can take these fence laws and turn them into commandments themselves.

Dr. John Hilton III: 27:44 Yeah, to be clear, it’s good to have fence laws. The challenge is if my personal fence law that’s really helpful for me becomes an expectation for you, I start judging you because you’re not living it. In my Sunday School class, I start teaching that everyone should do it, that becomes a real challenge.

John Bytheway: 27:58 President Henry B. Eyring said something similar, and this really helped me. He said, “You’ll be torn between the demands to put bread on the table and a roof over your head, to take care of a family need, to respond to the cries of the widows or the orphans around you, and at the same time meet the requirements of the calling you have accepted in the church. When that happens, you’ll be sorely tempted to murmur, perhaps even to complain. But remember, you serve a powerful master who loves you, who knows you, and who is all powerful. He has created not demands for your service, but opportunities for your growth. You can pray to him and with confidence ask, ‘What will you have me do next?'”

  28:40 And there’s more, but that helped me a lot when I was a bishop because with all of the different, “Now do this. Now do this. And be sure you cataloged this. And oh, write down your tender mercies and be sure you have half an hour in the Book of Mormon. Oh, and be sure you follow…” That question helped me tremendously because I did murmur, perhaps even complain that, “I can’t do this all and then come home and be a dad and a husband and everything.” And so that question, “I can’t do it all, but what should I do next?”, was a relief to me.

  29:13 So I appreciated President Eyring for that talk. It was called Servants of the Lord. It’s in this little book called We’re With You. When I was a student at BYU I was called to be Elders Quorum president, and I had a part-time job and a full-time school load. And then I was supposed to study and try to get good grades and then try to be an Elders Quorum president and try to help others do their home teaching. Then I’d get pulled aside, “Hey dude, why aren’t you married?” So I tried to do all of that at the same time, that was burdensome. And I appreciated the advice of, “Well, what should I do next?” Because then the Lord can help you find the priority and then you can leave the residue in his hands as President Eyring said, which I really appreciated.

Hank Smith: 30:02 I have a thought here from 1990. Can either of you remember that far back? 1990.

Dr. John Hilton III: 30:06 I love the nineties.

John Bytheway: 30:08 Sure can.

Hank Smith: 30:09 Stephen E. Robinson, a devotional given at BYU called Believing Christ, he wrote a book with the same title, I think maybe an Ensign article, the same title. He tells this story about he and his wife. He says, “Sometimes the weight of the demand for perfection drives us to despair. Sometimes we fail to believe the most choice portion of the gospel that says he can change us and bring us into his kingdom. Let me share an experience that happened about 10 years ago.” So now we’re going back to the 1980s. “My wife and I were living in Pennsylvania. Things were going pretty well. I’d been promoted. It was a good year for us, though a trying year for Janet.” His wife. “That year, she had our fourth child, graduated from college, passed the CPA exam and was made Relief Society president.” Oh goodness.

  30:54 “We had temple recommends. We had Family Home Evening. I was in the bishopric. I thought we were headed for LDS yuppiehood. Then one night the lights went out. Something happened in my wife that I can only describe as dying spiritually. She wouldn’t talk about it. She wouldn’t tell me what was wrong. That was the worst part. For a couple of weeks, she did not wish to participate in spiritual things. She asked to be released from her callings and she would not open up and tell me what was wrong. Finally, after about two weeks, one night I made her mad and it came out. She said, ‘All right, you want to know what’s wrong? I’ll tell you what’s wrong. I can’t do it anymore. I can’t lift it. I can’t get up at 5:30 in the morning and bake bread and sew clothes and help my kids with their homework and do my own homework and do my Relief Society stuff and get my genealogy done and write my congressman and go to PTA meetings and write the missionaries.’ She just started naming one brick after another that had been laid on her explaining all the things she could not do.

  31:45 “She said, ‘I don’t have the talent that Sister Morell does. I can’t do what Sister Childs does. I try not to yell at the kids, but I lose control and I do. I’m just not perfect and I’m never going to be perfect. I’m not going to make it the Celestial Kingdom, and I’ve finally admitted that to myself. You and the kids can go, but I can’t lift it. I’m not Molly Mormon. I’m not ever going to be perfect. So I’ve given up. Why break my back?’ We started to talk and it was a long night.” He goes on later to say, “She knew why Jesus is a coach, a cheerleader, an advisor, and a teacher. She knew why he is an example, the head of the church, the elder brother or even God. She knew all of that, but she did not understand why he is called the Savior. Janet was trying to save herself with Jesus as an advisor.” She said, “I’m going to do this. You can help me.”

  32:32 “Brothers and sisters. We can’t. No one can. No one is perfect.” He said, “Of course we fail at the celestial level. That’s why we need a savior. And we are commanded to approach God and call upon him that we may receive according to our desires.” Later paragraph says this, “Perfection comes through the atonement of Christ. We become one with him, with a perfect being. And as we become one, there is a merger.”

Dr. John Hilton III: 32:58 That story makes it real. That’s a real story.

Hank Smith: 33:01 I’ll just finish with the scripture again because he does quote the same scripture. “This is why the Savior says in Matthew 11:28, ‘Come onto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.’ What heavier load is there than the demand for perfection, that you must do it all and that you must make yourself perfect in this life before you can have any hope in the next? What heavier burden is there than that? That is the yoke of the law.”

John Bytheway: 33:27 Great. Stephen Robinson, just the idea of the book I thought was so good, Believing Christ. He kind of said at the beginning, I think a lot of us believe in Christ, we believe he exists, but we don’t believe him when he says he can save us.

Hank Smith: 33:43 “I can save you.” Yeah.

John Bytheway: 33:45 And he wrote a follow-up book to that called Following Christ, and in some ways I liked it even more. One of the things he said was, “A lot of us are asking the question, ‘Am I going to make it?'” And his thesis was Section 25 of the Doctrine & Covenants, “If you’ve been baptized, you are sons and daughters in my kingdom. The question is not, are you going to make it? The question is, do you want to stay?” It’s kind of a relief of, “No, you’re in. You’re in the kingdom. Do you want to stay?” And we keep coming back to the sacrament table and making the covenants and we keep trying. And I think that’s the thing. But the burden part that she felt there, I think all of us can relate to that. That’s a great story.

Hank Smith: 34:25 This is an excellent discussion.

Dr. John Hilton III: 34:27 So we’ve been circling around the topic of fence laws. So I think one takeaway from Matthew 11:28-30 is it’s not that fence laws are bad, but we should think carefully about our fence laws and ask ourselves, “Are these drawing me closer to Jesus Christ? Are these helping me live the gospel with joy? Or are these becoming a barrier or a burden?” And there’s more to say about fence laws that we’ll come back to in a second, but I do want to emphasize that obedience is really important. Just a couple of weeks ago we were in the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus says, “Not everyone that says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will come into the kingdom. But he that does the will of my Father. So he that hears these words and doeth them, that’s the person building on a rock.”

  35:07 Or in this week’s reading in Luke 11:28, Jesus says, “Blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.” Or at the end of Matthew 12 from this week, Jesus says, ‘Whosoever shall do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and mother.” So sometimes we focus on the fact that Jesus loves us, and that’s true. Jesus does love us. He also really wants us to keep his commandments. That’s a requirement to be a part of this family. So inspired fence laws that will help us to do God’s will are extremely valuable. And I think the best kinds of fence laws are the ones that will come from prophets and from the Holy Ghost. So you might be around maybe another family member or friend and you learn about their fence law and the Holy Ghost says, “You should do that.” So that’s not going to be a burden. That’s God helping me. That’d be more like the commandments, not a few that we talked about back in the Doctrine & Covenants.

  36:05 I’d love to hear a little bit about some fence laws that you or your family has had that’s been helpful for you. And just while you’re thinking about it, I’ll share one from my life. So toward the end of my mission, Elder Richard G. Scott of The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles came and spoke to all the missionaries, and he had given a similar message at BYU that he gave to us. So this is what he said at BYU. He said something similar to us. “Firmly establish personal standards. Choose a time of deep spiritual reflection when there’s no pressure on you and you can confirm your decisions by sacred impressions. Decide then what you will do and what you will not do to express feelings. The spirit will guide you.” So in other words, Elder Scott is basically saying create your own fence law for the law of chastity based on the Holy Ghost.

  36:55 So I was a diligent missionary. I was like, “Okay, I’m going to do this right now.” There’s no temptation for me. I pray, I feel the Holy Ghost testified to me of a certain fence law. I lived it on my mission. It was super easy. Then I came home from my mission. So I’ve been home for three or four days. I’m on my first post mission date with the young lady that I dated a little bit before my mission and we’re at the house together and I’m showing her some pictures from my mission and she’s showing me pictures from college. And then all of a sudden I’m looking into her eyes and she’s looking into my eyes and I realized like, “Well, there’s an opportunity to break my fence law here.” So I looked at her and I said, “Have I ever told you about the standard I set for myself on my mission?” Now in retrospect, there was a lot better way I could have handled this situation.

John Bytheway: 37:44 So romantic.

Dr. John Hilton III: 37:46 I’d only been home for three days, so help me out here. So she’s like, “No, what is it?” And I told her this standard that I’d set for myself, and she looked at me and she said, “That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.” And that was our last date. So that was it. In fairness to her, in later years we talked about this and laughed about it together, I do not think I was in danger that night of breaking the law of chastity. But I do think that the fence law I had, it kept me out of some sticky situations in college that I might have fallen into.

  38:17 Not everyone’s going to always be supportive of your fence laws, but if you get a rule from the Holy Ghost, you want to live that. It’s not that all fence laws are burdensome. In some of these examples that we’ve been talking about, it’s great to help people do their Home Teaching or it’s great for, in the earlier example I gave, for the woman who wants to read the scriptures 30 minutes a day. So there’s some fence laws that we want to keep and we want to be careful we just don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.

John Bytheway: 38:42 I feel like the new For the Strength of Youth guide is talking about exactly what Elder Scott talked about. The emphasis we’ve been hearing from President Nelson is to hear Him and then to let God prevail. The way in the new For the Strength of Youth guide was written was to say, rather than being as prescriptive as it has been in the past, we want you to get on your knees and hear Him and then set those standards, like Elder Scott said, for yourself. Some are looking at it like, “Oh, there’s a lot more freedom here.” Well, actually it’s placing the responsibility on your shoulders to get on your knees and ask God how you should govern your life and, as you said, maybe create some of those fence laws that you’re talking about. So where’s that Elder Scott quotation again? That was really good.

Dr. John Hilton III: 39:32 So the Elder Scott quote is a BYU devotional Do What is Right. And it’s interesting, John, so the standard that I set for myself actually was a little stricter than what For the Strength of Youth said. But because it was the Holy Ghost driving it into my heart, I was so comfortable living it. And I think that’s what’s powerful. When the moment of temptation comes, if it’s like, “Well wait, what did my young women’s leaders say about this?” That’s not going to be enough. John, I know that you serve on the General Young Men’s Presidency Board, and so you might have seen some different angles into the For the Strength of Youth. I’ve heard some people say kind of similar to what you said, “Oh great, the rules are gone.” But as I listened to the General Young Men’s Presidency speak at the Church News podcast a little while ago, they talked about a higher and holier way, what I should be doing as a parent or a youth around the new For the Strength of Youth.

John Bytheway: 40:24 We had one Young Men’s leader locally just said this, For the Strength of Youth guide is next level. And that’s a really good way to put it. Instead of looking down to a book and saying, “How do I behave?”, it’s looking up and saying how… Some that have said, “Oh, there’s nothing anymore about this or that dress and grooming” and have gone out and done whatever. Well, did they get on their knees first and look up and ask for that higher, holier way? Because those who have, I think that’s what’s happening. They’re getting a higher, holier standard and impression about, “How do I represent Christ? I’ve taken his name upon me at the sacrament table. Now how do I go out and represent him?” And that’s a different question than, “Well, what does it say I can do in the book? Or what does it say I can’t do in the book?” It’s a higher, holier way and it’s a way that puts more responsibility on our shoulders, not less.

Hank Smith: 41:14 I was just thinking how good my wife is at explaining fence laws to our kids. I’ve seen her do this many times where she will say, “Now, this in itself is not a commandment, not going on steady dates with someone, not being alone with some member of the opposite sex or whatever.”

Dr. John Hilton III: 41:32 Special person.

Hank Smith: 41:33 Yeah, special person. But she says, “This will keep you from breaking a commandment or getting yourself into real trouble.” I’ve tried to follow her example and be better about explaining why I would hope there’s certain laws that we keep, certain things that we do in our house and kind of show them the fence and the cliff and the consequences and what everything is. So that we can be very clear that the fence law itself, though it may feel burdensome, can actually be a protection for us. But when you break a fence law, you’re not necessarily falling over the cliff. And that’s why mom and dad don’t panic and freak out because we’re like, “Look, you broke that fence law, now you’re closer to the cliff. That’s probably not a good idea. Come back over on this side of the fence.”

John Bytheway: 42:24 Please join us for part two of this podcast.