John Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to part two with Dr. Lili Anderson, Matthew 6 and 7.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Lili, today has been fantastic. Let’s move on to chapter seven, if you don’t mind. Great paragraph in the manual. I want to start with this. The Sermon on the Mount is one of the best known discourses in Christianity. The Savior taught with rich images, such as a city set on a hill, lilies of the field and wolves disguised as sheep. But the Sermon on the Mount is far more than a beautiful speech. The power of the Savior’s teachings to his disciples can change our lives, especially when we live by them. Then, his words become more than words. They become a sure foundation for life that, like the wise man’s house, can withstand the world’s winds and floods. Whoever wrote that, great writer. How do you want to go about chapter seven, Lili?

Dr. Lili Anderson: 00:49 It’s all about judgment. Again, this is something I hadn’t really seen in previous readings of this, which are many. But this time, I saw this arc and I saw that this is the message of chapter seven. It’s about righteous judgment and he gives us many applications and things, I think, that you’re going to see them fit together, and we’re going to have fun discussing it. So, let’s start. It’s right there in the first verse: “Judge not, that you be not judged.” Now, can I just say this is one of our favorite false doctrines in the church?

Hank Smith: 01:18 Yes, it is. Yeah. Don’t judge me.

John Bytheway: 01:19 It’s got the JST.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 01:22 It has done so much damage. And I can tell you as a counselor, it continues to do terrible damage to the saints, and to our children, and to our families, and to our communities to not judge. And we are sitting ducks for Satan if we don’t judge. Now, here’s what I think happened. As you say, Hank, Joseph Smith … bless him forever … came through in his translation of the Bible and corrected this to say, “Judge not unrighteous judgment.” Now, why didn’t that fix the problem? Because people don’t know what righteous judgment is. So they would say, “I’d rather be safe and not judge at all because I don’t want to judge unrighteously.”

  01:59 So even though this has been incredibly illuminating and clarifying, if we allow it to be, too many people have retreated into what they think is the comparative safety of not judging at all, and it’s not safe. It’s a disaster, which we are going to talk about today. So let’s go to Moroni 7, which we’re going to spend a little time in today, but let’s start with verse 15. “For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge.” Oh, please. Can we just accept this once and for all? That we are commanded to judge? Try to explain to me, if you can, how you can use your agency without judgment.

John Bytheway: 02:38 Making judgments every single day, we have to! It’s so cool that President Dallin H. Oaks is a former Utah State Supreme Court Judge.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 02:47 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 02:48 And he wrote this classic talk called Judge Not and Judging.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 02:51 Judge Not and Judging.

John Bytheway: 02:52 Yeah. Is that where you were going?

Dr. Lili Anderson: 02:52 Yeah! It’s absolutely essential that people know about that. I mean, they should know about it. It’s such a great resource where he explains how to judge.

John Bytheway: 03:03 Yeah. Let me give you just introductory paragraphs because I hope people will go look it up. Find it in your August 1999 Ensign. But he said in that talk, “There are two kinds of judging: final judgments, which we are forbidden to make, and intermediate judgments, which we are directed to make, but upon righteous principles.” And just that has helped me so much. We don’t do final judgments-

Dr. Lili Anderson: 03:25 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 03:26 But we have to make intermediate judgements every day.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 03:29 So before President Oaks gave that speech, I actually taught my children this way. But it was the same message, so it kind of depends on which terms are easiest for us to use or to use to describe these things to our children. President Oaks’, then Elder Oaks’, speech is wonderful and his terms are great because he does differ between intermediate judgment … which we must make, to navigate our lives on this planet and use our agency … and final judgment, that John just described. The way I had used terms before with my children was the difference between judgment and condemnation. Same idea because final judgment is a condemnation, and I taught my children we have no right to condemn. That is way above our pay grade. There’s no way we know enough. And as Elder Oaks mentions in that speech, he says, “There’s only one prerequisite for being a judge, a final judge, and that’s omniscience.”

  04:17 You’re like, “That makes sense.” You got to know everything in order to judge correctly. And none of us do that, but He does. And again, we can leave it in his hands with complete confidence because mercy won’t rob justice, but mercy will temper it, and God will get it exactly right in every case. I am so grateful for that. We can leave that aside and never condemn, but we must judge. And I love that Elder Oaks also specifies that we have to judge people because I tried that first with my children when they were very little. I thought maybe that was the way I could teach them, that we judge behaviors, not people. And you know what? It doesn’t work. So I know there are some of you out there who are trying to do that. It doesn’t work! We still have to make judgments about people because we interact with people! We date people. We marry people. We go into business with people.

John Bytheway: 05:06 We hire them to babysit our children!

Dr. Lili Anderson: 05:09 Exactly! Are we not going to judge? Thou fool! I mean, how crazy would that be? Of course we make judgements, and so it’s so ironic. Every semester that I taught at BYU … and any other class that you ever teach, it happens … but every semester, you could count on it. And almost in the first week or two, somebody would raise their hand and say, “I know we shouldn’t judge.” But you know what? I never let that occasion pass without launching into my explanation about how we must judge because this is a really dangerous part of our culture. And what’s ironic is that we’re in total denial when we say that because everybody’s making judgements all the time, as you just said. But we pretend we’re not, and then when it really counts, we don’t! So we’re doing the worst of it, doing the unconscious judgment without even considering what we’re doing or how wise we are about it. And then, we won’t judge when it’s right in front of us to judge.

  05:57 So let’s just go on with this wonderful Moroni 7, which as you remember, these are the words of Moroni’s father, Mormon. “Behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil.” That’s the whole point. We came to this Earth so that we could learn to discern good from evil to make judgments. “And the way to judge is as plain.” I mean, it is so simple. God is going to lay it out for us right here through the prophet, Mormon. “That ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.” He’s setting this up! This is not hard. Stop making this so complicated and then avoiding it like the plague!

John Bytheway: 06:38 Like night and day.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 06:38 It’s like night and day. Can you tell day from night? Then you can judge. And here’s the way. Okay, am I getting passionate again? I can’t help it. Verse 14, I’m going to go back one, “Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that you do not judge that which is evil to be of God, and that which is good and of God to be of the devil.” Now, that’s the judgment that we are warned against in Matthew 7. Do not judge unrighteously. And what is unrighteous judgment? It’s right there. If we take good things and we condemn them, or we turn away from them or we think they’re bad … Now, Isaiah warned about this, right? That good would be called evil and evil would be called good, and that is unrighteous judgment and it will condemn us.

  07:25 And then he goes on, this wonderful speech that the spirit of Christ is given to us to know good from evil. This is verse 16. “And I show you the way to judge; every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.” And then the opposite, “Whatever persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil.” There it is. There it is. It couldn’t be more clear. If it leads you to Christ, it’s good. If it leads you away from Christ, it’s evil and it comes from Satan. Banish it from your life and don’t hang with people who try to lead you down that road.

  08:11 And we do need to judge people, like then Elder Oaks said. We do need to make judgments of people, but they are intermediate judgments. They are not condemnations. We don’t know enough to know final outcomes for people. There are so many variables God will take into consideration, and he’ll get it exactly right. Plus, this is just the second act of the third act play as we’ve talked about before, so there’s more information that God will use. That’s not our business. Our business, though, is to judge and please … those single brethren and sisters out there … please judge before you marry. Can I just say please exert judgment? And use judgment in who you date and in how long you date them, or if you want to continue or if you want to stop dating them. And then, finding the people that you should date and that you should marry. Those are judgments, please make them.

  09:03 And then, when we are raising children, look at the judgements we need to make. “What am I letting into my home? What TV shows am I letting my kids watch? Am I trying to be non-judgmental? Oh, well somebody made it and I guess we just won’t condemn it.” We’re not going to condemn filth? We’re not going to condemn evil that wants to come knocking on our internet doors? I mean, how foolish could that be? Or their friends, “Well, I don’t want to judge.” Are you kidding? This kid treats you badly. Are you really supposed to go back and play with them more or hang with them more or spend time there? We have to judge all the time. Now people say, “But we don’t condemn.” People say, “How can your kids be missionaries and a friend to everybody if you’re only letting them play with people who are already good?” or whatever. And my answer to my children was always, “It’s about turf. You make a judgment about turf. Is it good turf or bad turf? If it’s good turf, you associate with everybody.

  09:55 Like at school, if it’s in a safe place and you’re not hanging out in the dark recesses of D-Wing or whatever. But if you’re out there in school, where it’s supervised and it’s a safe place, safe turf, then you really have to be friendly to everybody. Because yes, maybe you can share the light of the gospel. Maybe you can invite, maybe you can lift and bless and be kind and all of those good things, be a missionary. But you don’t go on bad turf with anybody. We don’t send our missionaries into the Red Light District. We will not send the elders on that turf. We have to judge that constantly. Our associations need to be about turf. Then, we can see daylight from the dark night. We keep safe and we are able to be able to come to Christ and we see the things that invite and entice, and the people who invite and entice us to serve God and to strengthen our testimonies and to do what’s right and keep our covenants.

  10:46 That’s great. I can judge those people to be worthwhile companions. I have to judge holy ground, standing on holy ground. What is holy ground? That’s the turf we’re talking about. Also, back to Matthew 7, when people say that you shouldn’t judge people, I always kind of laugh and I think, “But I’m pretty sure when Christ says, ‘Cast not your pearls before swine,’ I’m pretty sure he is not talking about livestock.”

Hank Smith: 11:08 That’s a judgment. Yeah.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 11:08 “I’m pretty sure he doesn’t really mean pigs.” So I think there’s a judgment there.

Hank Smith: 11:13 Yep.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 11:14 And that’s what I said. Matthew 7 is all about examples of this. Now, let me mention this because I think this is really important. In a world like ours … and we’re going to talk about sophistry in a minute. That is going to be our big finish today, so make sure I get there and push me if I need to be pushed. But we have to think critically. Now, I’ve been thinking about this with my grandchildren. Because I really try to teach my children to be critical thinkers, and now I’m seeing that my grandchildren also need to become critical thinkers, of course. And their parents are pretty good about helping them see this. I get to help with that sometimes in our associations. Let’s consider critical thinking for a moment. What is it?

  11:50 Now this is basically discernment that we’re talking about, and the Lord wants us to have discernment. Discernment is another word, basically, for judgment. But it’s a little bit more subtle perhaps because sometimes, with the sophistry of the world, we can be deceived if we don’t understand how to think critically or make these discernments. So we could divide critical thinking into these component parts. First, you need to know the doctrine. There is no way you can tell truth from error if you don’t know the truth. And I know I say this every once in a while, but my children grew up hearing me say the gospel is the best kept secret in the church. But don’t worry, I know where to find it. It is in the scriptures and it is in the words of the prophets, but we have to study them. We have to learn the doctrine so that when you hear something that pretends to be doctrine, it’ll sound a false note because you already know the doctrine.

  12:47 You’re like, “That doesn’t sound quite right,” because I know what God has said on this subject. So I’m already able to discern better because I know what God has said and what he teaches us. So this is essential, and can you imagine how inspired our leaders are in these last days full of sophistry and deception, that they are instituting this home-centered, church-supported gospel study, where we take ownership for our gospel scholarship. Like what Moses said, “All men were prophets.” That all God’s people were gospel scholars. Let’s not starve to death in the banquet hall, brothers and sisters. We have such access! I mean, it’s everywhere. It’s on our phones. We still have our old, hard copies. We’ve got everything. We’ve got videos. We’ve got expansive access to the prophets, to commentaries. But we have to partake, or we’ll starve to death in the banquet hall and we will be deceived. I guarantee it. In a world like this, we will be deceived. We’ve got to know. That’s the first part of discernment and critical thinking is we have to know the doctrine. Study like crazy.

John Bytheway: 13:54 If you’re going to discern truth from error, you have to know what the truth is.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 13:57 So you can hear those false notes. You can hear those discordant parts. Exactly. And then, you have to listen carefully enough to what people are saying that you find those false notes. You hear that inconsistency. You don’t just absorb it and go, “Oh, yeah. I suppose that’s true.” But you think, “Well, wait a minute. Did that match up?” So we’re talking about that critical thinking part, that evaluative part. “What are they saying? Am I listening? Well, I have to understand where they’re going with this and what the implications of what they’re saying might be. If they’re stating that this is true, what does that lead to? Does it line up with obedience of commandments? Does it lead me to Christ because that would be good and I want to make that righteous judgment, or does it lead me away? Does it lessen my resolve to live my covenants, to be obedient, to become more like Christ, to conform to the image of the Son?”

  14:45 And so it really is knowing the truth and then listening and trying to see where does it match up? Oh, if it matches up, it’s true. That leads me to Christ. If it strengthens all that it’s true. If it doesn’t, where’s the falsehood? What part did not match up, and where does it lead? It leads us away from Christ. And then, we have to be willing to be courageous and call it out. Now, we call it out in appropriate stewardship situations. I’m not suggesting that we start fights in the street or online and stuff like that, because we can get into the weeds that way too. But we teach the truth, and we testify of the truth in situations that are kind of murky. So we can be a light, and we shouldn’t hide that light under a bushel. We should be defenders of the faith.

  15:29 This is what Elder Holland invited us to when he went to BYU in August of 2021. Let’s defend the faith, for Pete’s sake. Can we not defend the truth? We have the truth and we hear this error. There are people who are spouting worldly philosophies. And we know that much of this has started in the university settings all over the world, where it’s pushing in more secular line of thought. It’s pushing more godlessness, more worldliness, and trying sometimes, incorrectly, to combine the two. Worldly philosophies, maybe we can kind of conform that into something that one of the prophets said. But there is discord there, and I’m going to use an example here in a little while. But anyway, this righteous judgment has to be used with critical thinking, which means we have to know the truth and then we have to listen for the false notes.

  16:14 Now, look at some of the examples he gives in this chapter, and I want to go kind of quickly over this because even though this language is so beautiful and worthy of a lot of thought, I don’t want to miss our big point that’s coming. But he talks about righteous judgment includes not confusing beams and motes. Now there’s a good warning in there, of course, not to be so critical of other people and to be willing to look in the mirror and say, “Lord, what lack I yet? Where do I need to improve? How can I repent? What should I repent of next? How can I grow in the way that thou wouldst desire that I focus on next?” Sometimes revelation is hard to get, but that revelation seems to always come easily.

  16:48 You ask or pray about how you should change and grow and improve and it seems like all of a sudden, every scripture’s about something that you should change, or every talk in church. And it’s wonderful because the Lord so values us in our petitions to him to help ourselves become better, and not to sit there and try to correct everybody else. There was a great version of the Serenity Prayer that somebody wrote a while back that says, “God, grant me the serenity to accept that I cannot change other people, the courage to change the person I can, and the wisdom to know it’s me.”

Hank Smith: 17:19 That’s awesome.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 17:20 A little more right to the point, wouldn’t you say?

Hank Smith: 17:22 The wisdom to know it’s me.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 17:24 The wisdom to know it’s me. And this is really applicable in marriage. We really want to change our partners sometimes, but we need to change ourselves and use that opportunity to grow in ways that the Lord can help us be refined in whatever circumstance. Now, I will say that there is a difference here, and I’m going to talk about that in terms of beams and motes. I already talked about that three realm model, and I’m going to suggest that some behaviors, as I have before, are telestial behaviors. They are destructive. They are sins. And then there are terrestrial problems, which are human imperfections. So there’s a big difference between indulging a pornography addiction, or who lies, or who isn’t honest or isn’t faithful in their marriage, or who won’t work to support a family. Things like that. There’s a big difference between those telestial component behaviors that are destructive and condemned by God, and watching too much TV.

  18:21 I mean if you’re watching really ugly, horrible, pornographic TV, that would be telestial. But if we’re watching the news too much, or we get too much into some Netflix series or whatever, we can be doing something that’s not really helping us progress and it’s kind of keeping us attached to some of the world. I’m not saying you can’t enjoy a movie once in a while, or shows or whatever. I’m just saying some people overdo it. Or they watch too many sports on TV, or they go to too many sporting events and they’re not spending time with their family or with their spouse, or they get a little too intense about some of that stuff. And we’ve been warned by our leaders over the years to simplify and not put the family in a secondary position, and not put the things that matter most at the mercy of things that matter less and so on.

  18:58 But those are more terrestrial problems, to get overburdened with good activities. They may all be good works, but that’s a problem. And we have been warned about those things, but can you see the difference between those kinds of terrestrial problems? Like I start every year thinking I’m going to lose 10 pounds or 15 pounds, and I don’t. That’s okay. I’m kind of a weak terrestrial person in there, maybe, but I’m not indulging an addiction. I’m not destroying myself or other people through my behavior. I don’t have a terrible temper that I let fly all the time. So let me give you an example of how people confuse these beams and motes and how damaging it is.

  19:32 I had a couple that came in to see me. I mean, I could tell you this story a zillion times with different details, but this pattern repeats incessantly. So here was a husband … They were both members of the church. They had been married in the temple, he was a returned missionary, they went to church and so on. But he would still, sometimes, smoke pot. He really liked to smoke pot. He knew it wasn’t right and he wasn’t worthy of a temple recommend and stuff like that, but he continued to indulge himself in that. Pot is now legal in some places, but it wasn’t legal back then where he was and whatever. And so he was breaking the law of the land, as well as the laws of the church and the laws of God. And this is a little unusual with pot, sometimes, although it does all kinds of other damage. But he was a mean drunk. Sometimes pot makes people mellow, but not this guy. He was one of those guys who would’ve been a mean drunk.

  20:22 So instead of getting mellow, he got nasty. He would come home stoned and he would wake up his wife from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and say, “The kitchen floor isn’t cleaned well enough,” and he would insist that she’d get down and scrub the kitchen floor in the middle of the night, or things like that. And it was really awful and abusive and it was horrible. She was really just being hurt and mistreated again and again. So anyway, she came into counseling and he didn’t like the way she was becoming a non-victim. So he came into counseling, which is the good thing. Because sometimes, if one person in a marriage changes, the other person might be more interested in, “Well, what’s going on here? Because something’s changing and I’m no longer able to get away with my behavior,” and that’s a really important thing.

  21:05 He came in and he said, “Well, when do I get to talk about what she does wrong?” and I said, “Right now.” So he said, “Well,” and it’s kind of what I just mentioned. “Well, every year she plans to lose 10 pounds, and then she just stops exercising and she gets busy and she doesn’t really lose the weight.” Now let me just say, this woman was sitting there right in front of me, and maybe she could have lost 10 pounds. Maybe. She was certainly not obviously heavy, and she had six kids or something, so she was taking pretty good care of herself. But okay, maybe she wasn’t slimmed down to model size. And then, the other complaint he had was that she doesn’t follow up on the kids’ chores very consistently. So they complained because when they were doing their next chores, sometimes it wasn’t finished well by the sibling who did it before. So she has some problems too.

  21:48 And I said, “Okay. Okay.” I said, “Let’s look at this. Here we’ve got a woman who won’t complete her physical fitness regimen and routine and lose 10 pounds. And am I getting this right? She doesn’t always follow up on the job chart as consistently as you think would be good and could help the children? And you break the law, and are a mean drunk, and are abusive.” I’m like, “Let’s just measure that out in the balance of God!” Beams and motes. Now, let me tell you. That makes me a pretty unusual counselor because I have heard, sadly, from too many people. And I’m not sure. I think there are other counselors who do that, but sometimes they don’t know how to judge this beam and mote situation. And so what happens is that somebody comes in with those kinds of different level problems. Some are telestial and some are terrestrial. The principles of the gospel can help us discern beams from motes. Which weeds do you pull out of your garden first? The tiny ones?

Hank Smith: 22:52 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 22:53 The worst.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 22:55 It’s the worst ones that draw us to the garden because they’re so obvious, from the street or from the back window. And so we’re like, “Ah, got to go weed that garden,” and we take out those huge weeds first. We have to address first things first. That is judgment. Prioritizing correctly. Please help people in your stewardships to do that. I just have to tell a quick story that I heard from a good friend about a Bishop that he knew, who became kind of legendary for helping people. Marriage problems, parenting problems, all these different problems. I think it was the stake president or something. Anyway, somebody came and said, “How do you seem to be such a good judge in this role?” And he said, “Well, I guess what I do is I listen and I find out where the sins are, and I help them repent.”

  23:39 That’s exactly what we’re talking about! But let me just first say that as part of this admonition on how to judge in chapter seven, God makes a big point about fruits, that this is another tool for judgment. Look at the fruits. That’s what we were saying about what are the implications? Where does this lead? If this is a true idea, does it lead to good things? Because it will. It will lead people to Christ. It will lead people to a better life, to better peace and safety in their personal lives and in their families. So what are the fruits? And use that to judge these false prophets as well. What are the fruits? Many people will use this in a good way with Joseph Smith, and other people are foolish about thinking that, “No. I mean the church is great, but Joseph Smith must have been a fraud or a charlatan,” and you’re like, “Fruits and roots, buddies. Fruits and roots.” You can’t get that kind of fruit out of bad roots. And God makes that point right here, again. Do you try to harvest grapes from thistles? Who does that? Who does that?

Hank Smith: 24:47 Weeds, yeah.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 24:48 You don’t expect grapes to grow from thistles. No, it doesn’t happen. And then, again, let’s go back to our other great judgment chapter, Moroni 7 and Matthew 7, remember? And he says this earlier than what we read before, but it’s also a very powerful message that I love the language of. “Behold, this is verse six, “God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good.” Now, that’s interesting. And then he goes on, because he said in the verse before, “By their works, ye shall know them.” Same thing as fruits, right? And then verse eight, “If a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth grudgingly. It is counted unto him as if he had retained the gift,” et cetera.

  25:24 And then, verse 10. “A man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift. For behold,” here’s the nice metaphor, “A bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water.” Yeah, same thing as good fruit. Doesn’t come from thistles. “Neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ, he cannot be a servant of the devil. All things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh through the devil.” Again, these are all ways to judge. Pay attention. Use critical thinking. What are the fruits? What’s going into this and what’s coming out of this? And is it blessing? Is it bringing people to Christ? Is it helping to keep covenants? Is it helping people to flourish or be protected, or have the blessings of light and truth in their lives, or is it pulling them away? Is it causing disruption, confusion, pain, angst? Is it taking them away from basic gospel principles?

  26:15 And let’s just hit that, because I know that time goes so rapidly here and I want to spend some time on this. Let me talk about our fruits for a minute. As a counselor, again, I see sad situations where I hear a lot of sad stories, and I’m glad people come and talk about them. But sometimes, people are so unhappy because of the troubles that they are experiencing, and we understand that. It’s very human to bleed when you get cut. But if we can’t find our hope in Christ, if we can’t see the fruits of gospel living in our own lives, sometimes we are a terrible advertisement for the gospel of Jesus Christ, even to our own children. If Mom and Dad are miserable but, boy, they’re faithful … they go to church, they pay their tithing, they go to the temple, but they are miserable … what kind of sermon are we really preaching? And where are our kids going to go for fruit, for good fruit, if they can’t see the fruits of gospel living in our lives?

  27:15 Now, I realize that we have some limited control. We might have a spouse who’s very difficult to live with. Maybe they are involved in some very hurtful behaviors and they’re not ready to repent yet. I’m not going to get into all the details of how to deal with that. That’s another topic. But I am going to say that we still can find peace in Christ. You remember this great Groberg story that he told about being on his mission in Tahiti, and they were going to a far island that was four hours away and the local fishermen were taking them so they could go teach a family? They’re on the Lord’s errand, this exciting thing to teach a family in the mission. And a storm is coming, and the local fishermen are like, “Hey, we got to pull into one of these islands because that’s a bad storm.”

  27:50 They pray about it and ask the Lord to bless them and protect them in the weather and whatever, and they keep going. And then those local fishermen are like, “This is a really bad storm. We can see it coming. We got to pull in,” and they’re like, “No, we’re on the Lord’s errand.” Anyway, they’re capsized and they lose all their scriptures and everything else, but that’s not what’s most important. They are fighting a storm-tossed sea for a very long time. I forget how long, but I think it was hours before they were able to swim to one of those islands and get on dry land again.

Hank Smith: 28:18 Oh, goodness.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 28:19 Elder Groberg describes, as a young missionary having this, he said, “Worse than losing all of that, worse than fighting the storm-tossed sea, was fighting my own confusion because we had prayed to the master of the universe who commands the winds and the waves, and they obey him. And we had asked for his protection on the Lord’s errand, and he didn’t calm the seas. What’s going on?” And he felt so confused and hurt and kind of disrupted by that. And then, this beautiful message from Elder Groberg that he learned as such a young man. He said, “I learned that sometimes, the Lord doesn’t calm the sea. Sometimes, he reaches his hand through the storm to calm his child.” That’s so powerful. No matter what the storms of our lives, we can be a better advertisement to our children and others of the fruits of gospel living. We can find that calm in the midst of the storm if we seek it, if we trust in it, if we know the end.

  29:24 Remember, God has told us the end. Christ has already won the victory. All we have to do is stay on that team, stay on the Lord’s side, and the victory is ours as well. And yes, it will vanquish every foe. It’s what he told Joseph Smith and everybody else who had trouble. He said, “If thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes. This will be but a small moment.” It’s part of the refining process. Let it refine you. Don’t become miserable. Maintain a bright hope in Jesus Christ because he is the conqueror and we can conquer in his victory too … if we overcome our fears, our doubts, our despair, and exchange it for the hope of gospel living in Christ … because He is our hope.

  30:15 And then, how our children can be blessed by seeing us … even in the midst of the storm … have a bright faith and find the happiness. Brigham Young used to say this, “We should be the happiest of all people.” And it doesn’t mean we haven’t had crazy trials, as a people and as individuals, and that will always be the way because that is the way of refinement, and there is no other way. But if we let it destroy our attitudes, if we let it bear us down, we are not bringing forth good fruit. And that is so tragic because so many faithful people then discourage their children from following this path. Don’t do it. We can do better, and God will help us find that peace in the storm. So are we mostly happy? Can we have that bright hope in Christ? What fruit does God really want?

  31:06 Well, he tells us right here in this chapter. He wants us to come to know him. These people try to bring forth their fruit in the judgment day. “Lord, have we not done many mighty miracles and didn’t we have all these callings? Didn’t we show up for the blood drive? Didn’t we do all these donations? Didn’t we deal with the young men or young women girls camp? Didn’t we do all that stuff? And we even were able to do some healing blessings, and we were able to do temple work. Wasn’t that it?” And then what does he say? And of course, again, we’re so indebted to Joseph Smith for this wonderful clarification because instead of, “I never knew you,” the real answer is, “You never knew me. You got so caught in the busyness of your life that you did not find me in the wilderness. I was there with opened arms waiting to embrace you, so you could come not only to know me, but to be like me,” which is what we talked about before.

  31:59 That conforming to the image of Christ. Closing the gap between the ideal and the real. Stifling that divine discontent with growth and progress and that bright hope that if we continue … it’s not a race and it’s not time limited … but if we set our feet on this gospel path and we pursue it diligently, that the Lord will promise that we can complete it. If we fault or not, if we endure through whatever our life journey is, he will consecrate that for our gain. So that’s what he wants from us is to come to know him, to become integrated, to become not just Christ-like in our behaviors but Christ-like in our being through the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost. We talked about all that.

  32:40 I want to mention this because this is a quote that I’ve loved forever. Marvin J. Ashton, April 1992, in a speech called The Tongue Can Be a Sharp Sword. I quote this all the time. Marvin Ashton said this. He said, “The best and clearest indicator that we are progressing spiritually and coming unto Christ is the way we treat other people.” I heard that. It leapt off the screen. That’s the fruit, that we actually treat people like the Savior treats them and they feel that love.

John Bytheway: 33:08 That is John 13:35. “By this shall men know.” It’s not how many callings. It’s not who’s in your genealogy. It’s not the blood drive. This is how you know. And Sheri Dew talks about that in one of her books, seeing somebody ask the question, “How do you know when someone’s truly converted?” and writing all the answers on the dry erase and this unnamed general authority erased everything except for how we treat others.” Maybe it was Elder Ashton, I don’t know.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 33:33 It might’ve been because he tells a similar story about writing all those things on the board. But that is the punchline. And when the Ensign came that time around, I copied that and I put it on the refrigerator, and I asked my kids to learn it and memorize it because this is the fruit God wants from us, is that we are conformed to the image of his Son and we treat people in the way he does. And it is love that comes to them. They feel the love of Christ through us. Now, can we just look at our close relationships? Because there are some people who can be great in their church callings and they’re lousy at home, and that’s just the truth. They get too angry at home. They’re too critical. They’re too controlling. But they sure bear a rousing testimony that brings the masses to tears. And they can teach a great lesson, or they can do great service, or they can actually run these programs great ways, or they can be great missionaries, but they do not treat the people closest to them in the way that the Savior would.

  34:28 It is not acceptable. And he will tell us, “You never knew me. I love you, but you never knew me. And I cannot let you enter worlds without end because you didn’t use your experiences in life to become like the Savior.” It’s a long journey, but let’s get on it. He’ll help us! He enables us. He lifts us. But we have to have the determination and we have to stop being hypocrites. We have to stop thinking, “My works will save me. My callings will save me. My temple recommend in my pocket will save me, or my tithing donation slip.” No. It’s how are we conforming to the image of Christ and do the people around us feel it? What would they say of us in that moment of judgment where the secret acts of men are revealed and shouted from the housetops?

  35:21 How did my dad treat us at home? How did my mother treat us at home? How did they treat each other? I mean, this is what the Lord wants from us. That’s the fruit. That’s the fruit. He’s telling us, “You want to judge your fruits? You want to judge your life? This is it. This is how to judge.” Matthew 7 is telling us how to judge and what pitfalls to avoid in our judgment. So, let’s talk about a vital use. Here we go! We’re getting to my topic now. Sophistry. We hear this word every once in a while in the words of the prophets and in scripture. One time, I decided … I’m quoting President Hinckley. Remember when he introduced proclamation to the world on family? He used those words. He said, “With so much of sophistry that is passed off as truth.” That was kind of his introduction to the presentation of this wonderful proclamation, which like we said, back then, was a snoozer. And now, it’s hate speech.

  36:21 Really prophetic, really powerful. Saving doctrines. Saving doctrines in the storm of this world. In the last days, these are saving doctrines. And he warned us of sophistry, which, wow. This is so relevant. So I looked up meanings for sophistry just to get my favorite definition, and there are a lot that came up that I didn’t really care for too much. And then this one came up, and I like it. It said, “Unsound or misleading, but plausible, clever, or subtle argument or reasoning.” I think that nails it. Unsound or misleading, but plausible, clever, and subtle argument or reasoning.

  37:07 That’s a great definition of sophistry, brothers and sisters. And Elder Ballard gave this great statement in October Conference of 1999, “Therefore, let us beware of false prophets.” Now, we just read about that in Matthew 7. He warns against false prophets. He wants us to judge. He wants us to have critical thinking skills so that we can evaluate and we can find the discord, we can find those dissonant notes, those harsh notes that don’t match up with gospel music. “Beware of false prophets and false teachers, both men and women, who are self-appointed declarers of the doctrines of the church.” They’re all over social media, brothers and sisters. They’re all over. “And who seek to spread their false gospel and attract followers by sponsoring symposia, books, and journals whose contents challenge fundamental doctrines of the church. Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce. Like Nehor and Korihor in the Book of Mormon, they rely on sophistry to deceive and entice others to their views.”

  38:27 Now what does that mean? That means it sounds clever, plausible. It’s subtle, but it’s unsound and misleading. And that’s what they’re saying. They’re making statements that sound right. They have that initial clever or plausible sound, but they are unsound and misleading, and they take people away from God. “They ‘set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they can get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.'” Now, we have great examples in the Book of Mormon of antichrists, of sophists. Zeezrom and Korihor are the two that come to mind quickest, but there are others in other times, But let’s talk about Zeezrom, that talks to Amulek in Alma 11:34 and look at the language. Let me find that for a second. Alma 11. Did I mark that?

John Bytheway: 39:21 That’s awesome.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 39:22 Yeah, it’s a great statement. It’s a great statement. Okay, let’s look at this verse in the Book of Mormon here, when Zeezrom is going after Amulek. Listen to the language and think of that definition. Unsound or misleading, but plausible, clever, subtle argument and reasoning. So here’s Zeezrom, who says, “Is it the Son of God that’s coming? And Zeezrom says again: Shall he save his people in their sins?” Okay, now if we know the gospel, we heard the discord. Right there, we heard the false note.

John Bytheway: 39:49 Yeah, in.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 39:50 Will he save his people in their sins? But that’s subtle. That’s subtle. The other language is very familiar. Christ will save. He is the Savior. He will save his people. But he throws in this little word that makes it totally unsound and misleading. But it’s clever and plausible, and there could have been a lot of people who didn’t catch that because they weren’t as solid on doctrinal ground.

Hank Smith: 40:15 No.

John Bytheway: 40:15 They weren’t listening for the discordant notes, like you said a minute ago.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 40:18 Yes! Listen for that false note. “Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.” Now Zeezrom, who jumps in there all excited now, says to the people: “See that you remember these things; for he said there is but one God; and said the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people, as though he had the authority to command God.” He skips over the entire point in order to continue his misleading doctrine to deceive the people. And Amulek says, “Behold thou hast lied.” Now, let’s not kid ourselves. Sophists lie. They are not mistaken. They’re not just making a human error. They are deceiving. These people lie.

Hank Smith: 41:07 On purpose.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 41:08 On purpose. They are twisting little words. They are using language and clever ideas to try to resonate truth while they are actually telling lies. Amulek answers and said, “Behold thou has lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said He shall not save his people in their sins. And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he has said no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; so how can ye be saved except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” So he explains, “This is the error with this sophist. This deceiver, this anti-Christ is trying to twist things and use clever, plausible, and misleading but subtle argument to twist the truth into error so that you will be deceived and destroyed. He cares not for the welfare of Zion. He wants to tear it down. He wants to prevent it from even being built in the first place.”

  42:03 So there’s our great example. There are plenty of others, but let’s talk about this further. Let’s listen to the language of some of these things. Now this is one that a lot of people still make an error of, and I am not accusing you of being a sophist if you say this sometimes, because this is kind of a cultural remnant. But free agency.

John Bytheway: 42:25 Yeah, President Packer said, “Take the word free off of there!”

Dr. Lili Anderson: 42:29 That’s right. He says, “The scriptures never say free.” Now, I think back in the day when I was young and growing up, which was a long time ago now, people didn’t really think you meant free when you said free. Because it was a more terrestrial society, at least back then in middle class, post-World War II America. And people didn’t really take your word if you said it was free. They knew that you had to pay a price somewhere. But now, when our world has become increasingly selfish, increasingly about the natural man, increasingly hedonistic, then when people say free, they think you really mean free. And how many times have we heard people take that argument? And it’s true, they can. God won’t stop because he has given us agency. But it is not free. It is not without consequence. We choose the beginning of the path. We choose the end of the path. As you say, Boyd K. Packer in the speech said, “Let’s stop calling it free. It is moral agency and there is a consequence attached to the use of our agency.”

  43:15 How about this one? Judgment versus love. Judgment versus charity. Now we’ve talked about how, again, this is one of our favorite false doctrines. To not judge. And I have seen this used as a weapon all over the place. In families and situations with others, in relationships, where people say, “You shouldn’t judge this person.” Now, we talked about how sometimes you have to judge people in an intermediate, not condemning or final, way to navigate life effectively. And God does not want us to be victims. I’ve talked about that. We need to be anti-fragile. We need to be non-victim Christians. Again, there’s a whole sermon on that someday, but not now. What he wants is he doesn’t want us to be chronically victimized. What’s he going to do in the kingdom with a bunch of victims?

  44:06 We need to act, as Lehi said in 2 Nephi 2, and not to be acted upon, not to be acted upon consistently by evil people. Section 98 talks about that. Honestly, that’s what the book this year … if I can get that done … is going to be talking a lot about that. But this is a sophist argument. Again, not always said with intention to deceive, but it is very deceptive and destructive. Because if we think that we can’t judge, then we don’t protect ourselves from evil people. If we are told that we have to keep giving people the benefit of the doubt, if we have to keep trusting them, you have to give them another chance. You have to give them another chance because otherwise you’re judging. “You’re judging. Don’t judge them. You need to be more charitable than that. You need to forgive.”

  44:45 Forgiveness creeps in here a lot, too, with the not judging. And so we become victims and we are kind of like, “How come this isn’t working as well? Where is the good fruit of gospel living if this means that I get beat up by the same person again and again, or deceived or betrayed or injured by this person again and again? And is this really what God wants? That I just keep putting my hand in the same lion’s mouth and then I’m surprised when it gets bitten off again? Is it better to not judge here, or should maybe I make a judgment? And if I do that, am I not loving?” Now, look what President Monson said in April 2008. “The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.” Isn’t that the truth?

  45:25 And look how the world, through sophistry … and I don’t even have this one on my list, but it’s good to talk about … has reversed the two great commandments. When God was asked what are the great commandments of the law, he gave two in correct order. The first is to love God with all our heart, might mind and soul, and the second is to love our neighbor as ourself. The second. And it does not supplant the first, but look how our world wants to have commandment number two supplant commandment number one. And that’s what’s happening. That sin is wearing the mask of tolerance. That, “I have to love everybody to the point where I never make a judgment,” which, please, I hope we’ve convinced you that we must judge. And if we don’t judge, we’re fooling ourselves. I mean, we’re just not making the right judgments, and we’re avoiding judgment where we should, and we’re probably judging where we shouldn’t.

  46:11 But if we supplant in our effort to be kind, in our effort to not judge our neighbor, then we throw God and his gospel under the bus. We end up ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ because it makes people feel bad if they’re sinning. Don’t cast aside the gospel of Jesus Christ, and the sacred atoning sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, on our behalf, in order to not offend our neighbor by defending the truth, is sophistry involved in all of that. And sometimes, I see this in family life. “You are not forgiving so-and-so. You should be more tolerant. You should be more loving. You’re not charitable. You’re judging,” instead of, “Well let’s see. Help me understand what’s been going on here,” if it’s your business in the first place.

  46:54 But if you have a close relationship, you could ask, “Well, what’s been going on?” And then if you see a pattern of injury or abuse or mistreatment or exploitation, then heaven forbid you should keep putting your hand in that lion’s mouth. Good for you that you are choosing a wiser, safer agent course rather than victim course. And you’re acting rather than being acted upon in unrighteousness. That’s a big one.

John Bytheway: 47:14 I don’t know, Lili, if I heard this from you, but I liked the idea that Nephi got to a point where he didn’t say, “I guess I’m just judging Laman and Lemuel.” He just, “We have to go. It came to a point where I have to leave. I’m sorry Lehi. I couldn’t keep the family together, but we have to go.”

Dr. Lili Anderson: 47:33 And the Lord inspired it.

John Bytheway: 47:35 Yeah. I was intrigued by that idea that sometimes, you can’t fix it. “I just got to go.”

Dr. Lili Anderson: 47:41 Yes!

John Bytheway: 47:41 “For the safety of me and my family”-

Dr. Lili Anderson: 47:44 To be an agent.

John Bytheway: 47:45 “We have to leave.”

Dr. Lili Anderson: 47:47 A non-victim Christian.

John Bytheway: 47:50 Yeah.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 47:50 And again, what is God going to do in a kingdom with a bunch of victims? We’ll be hugging our inner child while he’s building worlds. We need to find safety in this journey. You can see how that just wouldn’t work. The same thing is true in scripture of Abraham. God tells him to leave his father behind. And I hear so many times people saying, “Well, I need to honor my father and mother.” And so they put their head in a lion’s mouth, or their hand in the lion’s mouth, every time they go over for dinner, or for a holiday, and are mistreated perhaps by maybe some telestial-living parents. Now, I’m not saying all parents are like that, but if parents are harmful to you and/or your children, why are you doing that? What is that teaching your children? To be a victim. And that, somehow, we have to love people who are doing damage to us? Now, I’m not saying we have to hate them, but I’ll tell you it’s a lot easier to love them if you stay out of the range.

  48:42 Get out of range, and you can have some soft feelings still because you have divested them of the power to continually abuse or hurt you. But this is a problem that people have all the time in counseling. They come in and they don’t know what to do with these very painful relationships. And you know what’s so ironic? Talk about not knowing how to judge. And bless their hearts, I know these people are trying to be so kind, but they’ll come and they’ll tell me this litany of problems that have emerged over the years with a painful parent or a painful spouse, or a painful somebody in their life that they have to have continual interaction with. And at the end they say, “But they’re really good people,” and I’m like, “Hang on. Hang on just a minute. Didn’t you just tell me that they do this and they say this and they treat you in this way, or your children? How does that work with being a good person?” These are serious problems.

John Bytheway: 49:36 If you’re sitting here in counseling, then what are the fruits of that?

Dr. Lili Anderson: 49:41 I do say often, “God’s stuff works better than that.” I say that a lot. “And if this were what he wanted, it would work better. But you are chronically being hurt.”

John Bytheway: 49:50 Let me throw in another talk of Elder Oaks, called Love and Law. It’s very similar to what you’re talking about right now. Does one supplant the other? No.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 50:00 Here’s another one. President Monson’s statement. After saying, “The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance,” he went on to say, “Do not be deceived. Behind that facade is heartache, unhappiness, and pain. You know what is right and what is wrong, and no disguise, however appealing, can change that.” President Oaks talked about that in another speech he gave at BYU called Weightier Matters of the Law. Very excellent speech that is worth reading and re-reading.

John Bytheway: 50:30 There’s a place in the Book of Mormon … and I’m so grateful for this because it gives me a chance to have my students make a note to the proclamation to the world on the family in the Book of Mormon … of those three P words. To preside, provide, protect, like you’ve been talking about. And when it talks about the stripling warriors and their mothers who were so wonderful, I say, “Well, where were their dads?” and the students sometimes say, “Maybe they died in the war before.” I say, “No, go backwards and look what it says here. ‘We received provisions from the fathers of those my two thousand sons.’ Look. Look what they’re doing.” And Hank, didn’t you do a talk about wise men’s foundations or something?

Hank Smith: 51:09 Yeah. I was talking about the last part of chapter seven. I’ve always loved these two stories in chapter seven about the mote and the beam, which I think is kind of funny. This guy’s got a 2×4 in his eye.

John Bytheway: 51:21 What, you can’t tell? You didn’t know?

Hank Smith: 51:24 Yeah, he’s walking around going, “You’ve got something in your eye, pal.”

John Bytheway: 51:27 “I do?”

Hank Smith: 51:27 Yeah. I’ve always found that kind of funny like, “Have you looked in the mirror?”

John Bytheway: 51:30 “You been at the lumber yard recently?” Yeah.

Hank Smith: 51:32 And the other one, with the man who builds his house upon a rock. I’ve always loved this story because I think the foundation of the house is what we talked about previously, Lili, with your private life. That’s what gives strength to your public life, is your private life. And I figured this foundation … If you don’t have a foundation, if you don’t have a strong private life between you and God, and no one else, your public life-

Dr. Lili Anderson: 52:03 And how you treat the people closest to you.

Hank Smith: 52:03 Yeah. Your public life is going to fall apart if you do not have that foundation. Your public life is really creaky. It’s a beach house.

John Bytheway: 52:13 There will be storms. I like that part too. It’s the Helaman 5:12 thing. They’ll come, but what’s your foundation? And then you’ll be all right.

Hank Smith: 52:21 Let me read something from Elder Holland. I think it goes along with exactly what you’re saying here. He says, “No child in this church should be left with uncertainty about his or her parents’ devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Restoration of His church, and the reality of living prophets and apostles who, now as in earlier days, lead that church according to the will of the Lord. In such basic matters of faith, prophets do not apologize for requesting unity, indeed conformity, in the eloquent sense that the Prophet Joseph Smith used that latter word. In any case, as Elder Neal A. Maxwell once said to me in the hallway, ‘There didn’t seem to be any problem with conformity the day the Red Sea opened.’ Parents simply cannot flirt with skepticism or cynicism, then be surprised when their children expand that flirtation into a full-blown romance.”

  53:09 “If in matters of faith and belief, children are at risk of being swept downstream by this intellectual current or that cultural rapid, we as their parents must be more certain than ever to hold to anchored, unmistakable moorings clearly recognizable to those of our own household. It won’t help anyone if we go over the edge with them explaining that through the roars of the falls all the way down, we really did know the church was true and the keys of the priesthood really were lodged there, but we just didn’t want to stifle anyone’s freedom to think otherwise.” And then this last statement, “No, we can hardly expect the children to get to shore safely if parents don’t seem to know where to anchor their own boat.”

Dr. Lili Anderson: 53:50 That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 53:50 A Prayer for the Children.

Hank Smith: 53:52 A Prayer for the Children, April 2003.

John Bytheway: 53:55 What you were talking about, Lili, do our kids see the fruits of the gospel living in our home? And as I’ve said before on this podcast, I sometimes have to repent in front of my children. “Sorry, I was mad about this,” or whatever. And I want them to see that, “Yeah, I make mistakes and I have to repent too. But let’s have family prayer and ask to help us tomorrow.” So I love that talk.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 54:15 It’s so important. If we don’t have that certainty and help our children to come back and testify of it and exemplify it by our fruits, they’re lost because they are being bombarded with this false, anti-Christ message.

Hank Smith: 54:30 All right. So Lili, there’s a talk called When Thou Art Converted by D. Todd Christofferson, then of the Presidency of the Seventy. He said, “Years ago when I served as stake president, a man came to confess a transgression. His confession surprised me. He had been an active member of the church for years. I wondered how a person with his experience could have committed the sin that he did. After some pondering, it came to me that this brother had never been truly converted. Despite his church activity, the gospel had not penetrated his heart.” That’s what we’ve been talking about in this episode with you, Lili. “It was only an external influence in his life. When he was in wholesome environments, he kept the commandments, but in a different environment, other influences might control his actions.” And then, Elder Christofferson asked some questions. “How can you become converted? How can you make the gospel of Jesus Christ not just an influence in your life, but the controlling influence the very core of what you are?”

  55:27 He goes through and he talks about how to make this happen. And at one point, he says, “Is there something in you or in your life that is impure or unworthy? When you get rid of it, that is a gift to the Savior. Is there a good habit or quality that is lacking in your life? When you adopt it and make it part of your character, you are giving a gift to the Lord.” And then he finishes … it just feels like this entire episode was kind of talked about in this talk … this is the last paragraph, “We have talked of desire, submissiveness to God, study, prayer, service, repentance, and obedience. From these, coupled with your worship and your activity in the church, will come testimony and conversion. The gospel won’t just be an influence in your life. It will be what you are.” I just feel like that was a second witness to all you’ve said today.

Dr. Lili Anderson: 56:22 That’s beautiful. That’s beautiful. Let me just end with the last verse of McConkie’s beautiful paeon of praise to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. “I believe in Christ. He stands supreme. From him, I’ll gain my fondest dream. And while I strive through grief and pain, his voice is heard, ‘Ye shall obtain.’ I believe in Christ, so come what may. With him, I’ll stand on that great day. When on this Earth, he comes again to rule among the sons of men.” I testify of our Savior, Jesus Christ. He does stand supreme and he invites us to be lifted up to become co-heirs with him. The mercy, the generosity, the grace of that, astounds me every day. I am willing to follow in his path. He is love, but it is his love and his way. And if we submit to it, nothing can stop us from gaining the victory with him.

Hank Smith: 57:30 Very well said. I can see why it says at the end of Matthew 7:28, “And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine.” They were very impressed by this sermon. And we have been, with both Dr. Blumell and Dr. Anderson, really seeing this sermon in a new way. John, you have any closing thoughts?

John Bytheway: 57:56 The next verse, “For he taught them as one having authority,” and the JST adds, “authority from God, not as having authority from the scribes.” It’s one of my favorite JST entrances. Not just authority by his personal presence or the way he spoke, but there was something, I guess, in what they felt, the way the Spirit carried his words. He has authority from God. And Lili, you’ve helped us just acknowledge that authority today as you’ve talked. We have to acknowledge that authority.

Hank Smith: 58:31 Excellent. We want to thank Dr. Lili Anderson for being with us today. What a treat, Lili. Thank you so much. We love having you on followHIM. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, who’s also good friends with Dr. Lili Anderson. They share grandchildren. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And of course, we want to remember our founder, the late Steve Sorensen. We hope all of you’ll join us next time. We have more New Testament to go through on followHIM.

  59:03 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. Followhim.co. And you can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on Facebook and Instagram. All of this is absolutely free, so be sure to share with your family and friends. To reach those who are searching for help with their “Come, Follow Me” study, please subscribe, rate, review, or comment on the podcast, which makes the podcast easier to find. Thank you. We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about: David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.