John Bytheway: 00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Scott Esplin, Doctrine and Covenants section 60 through 63. I just love verse three, which you mentioned, Scott. Nevertheless, ye are blessed, for the testimony which ye have borne is recorded in heaven for the angels to look upon. Whoa, really that happens. Angels rejoice over you and your sins are forgiven you. Now, you spoke about this being, was it Hyrum?

Dr. Scott Esplin: 00:30 It’s Hyrum and David Whitmer and Harvey Whitlock and John Murdock. I think the four of them, their journey had been delayed. They’d preached the gospel. One of them had also got sick along the way, so they stopped to get him better in that process. They missed the conference.

John Bytheway: 00:45 I see that, and I just hope that sort of thing we can apply to our testimony meetings. I have a confession to make. When I was a bishop, sometimes I was tired. To help me stay awake I started taking notes on everyone’s testimony, on testimony meetings. That booklet now has blessed me at funerals. It was really nice to be able to get up and say at Brother Wardell’s funeral, here’s what he said on this date. Here’s what he said on this date. Do you remember when he told us this on this date? There’s a reason to record those. I love that we get this insight into this is important. On the other side of the veil that they’re recording this. Who doesn’t love the last six words there and your sins are forgiven you. That one’s marked up in my scriptures. I don’t know about you guys.

Hank Smith: 01:46 It doesn’t mean that this person’s going to accept it. This person that you talk to, it doesn’t mean that they’re going to jump right in. It could be just another little step forward.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 01:54 I’m not a mission leader and I’m not nearly as good at this as you guys are, but I do love as one who teaches and studies the Doctrine and Covenants with some frequency. Sometimes the Doctrine & Covenants can feel repetitive in portions. It feels like, oh, I’ve already studied this. I’ve read sections about missionary work. I read section four. I read this, that, or the other section, but I paused a section like this and I think, oh, I don’t remember that verse before. Even though it’s another section about missionary work, there’s something new. Every time there’s something insightful. I don’t get to the bottom of these revelations. I always find application. We’re recording this now a few weeks before when this will be launched, but in our ward, we’re getting ready for Easter. They’re making a concerted effort in my ward to invite people in our neighborhood, those who may not regularly come to church or maybe people not of our faith who live in our neighborhood to come celebrate Easter with us.

  02:48 Come to our sacrament meeting. I got a text yesterday from our ward mission leader specifically asking me to consider inviting a couple of people in my neighborhood who I know really well. I’ve thought a lot about that text over the last 24 hours. I’m excited about it. I’m excited about the chance to reach out to people whom I love, who I don’t always see on a regular basis in the meetings where I might be on a Sunday to try to invite them to come to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and Easter. I think about these verses. I don’t know what testimony I’m going to bear as I invite them this week. I’m excited about the thought that heaven may rejoice over whatever I try to do. Maybe it’ll expedite forgiveness on my behalf as I do so. I don’t get to the end of finding sections in the Doctrine & Covenants that have application. Even if I felt like, man, I’ve already read 60 sections at this point of the Doctrine & Covenants and it feels like 45 of them have been about missionary work. Well, maybe because I need to work on it and I’m just a little bit slow at learning. It’s going to take me 45 or 50 or 60 sections to finally get it right. I’m grateful for sections like this that feel like a topic that’s already been covered once because it was really applicable to me. When I got that text last night. I thought about this section.

Hank Smith: 04:01 I remember once I was sitting in fast and testimony meeting and sometimes I covet a cave at church. At least for a while there I did. I would hide away. I can’t remember who it was in my ward that said, sometimes we assume that our ward knows what we believe. I’ve been in this ward for 15 years. I bore my testimony 11 years ago. I’m sure everyone here knows that I’m a believer and then this verse, you are blessed for the testimony which ye have borne is recorded in heaven for the angels to look upon, they rejoice over you and your sins are forgiven you. That verse makes me think, I’m going to go back up there on fast and testimony meeting one because it’s been way too long. Two, this is a way to apply this verse to testify.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 04:52 As an occupational hazard for the three of us. I sometimes think about, well, I teach the gospel every day of the week. I bear my testimony every day of the week. Do I really need to go up and bear my testimony in sacrament meeting? Well, my ward members never hear that every day of the week. They aren’t my students. I need to bear it. There’s power that comes in a testimony in sharing it. I need to have that reinforced in addition to the blessings listed here. I think you’re onto something here, John. The wording is intriguing to me. Whoever does the recording, it doesn’t necessarily say that the angels do the recording. I don’t know who does the recording. It says that the testimony is recorded and the angels do the looking upon of it. They must get to look at and see or understand or hear and what it is for them. Who are those angels? Why do they rejoice in it? Could it be loved ones that have been near and dear to me and they’re excited about, Hey, you know Scott’s still on the right path. Maybe they’re my old young men’s leaders or seminary teachers that I had that might rejoice up in heaven that, wow, that little kid that I taught that was a miserable 15-year-old in seminary. He turned out okay, he’s got a testimony.

Hank Smith: 06:06 What a beautiful idea, John. Both of our moms and our dads are in the spirit world. Can you imagine, picture this in your head, John, that you go up and bear your testimony. It’s written down and then someone’s running it over to your dad. You got to hear what John just said. Here it is. He reads it and smiles and says, oh, he is still telling dumb jokes. Look at that testimony. If that doesn’t spur you to bear your testimony, I don’t know what will. That’s a beautiful thought, Scott.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 06:33 Who are those angels? What connection might we have with them?

John Bytheway: 06:36 We’ve participated in Christmas programs together and you heard me talk about this idea of joy to the world, all this joy that comes to the world. Is there ever a place where we can send joy back to the heaven, to the spirit world In Luke 15 that says that joy in heaven over a sinner that repented, it says it multiple times in Luke 15 and all those parables of the lost coin, the lost sheep and prodigal son. We can send joy the other way, which is fun to think about. We see it here too. They rejoice over you. That’s called joy by repenting, by sharing our testimony, doing anything that moves anyone a little closer causes joy in heaven. A scarier question is what makes them do face palms and go, Ugh. Right?

Hank Smith: 07:27 Oh no, Scott that verse has changed for me. John, haven’t you found in our study together on the podcast that someone will highlight a verse like this and it’s no longer just a verse? It stands out from here on out. I’ll always remember what Scott taught me about when I bear my testimony where that might go and who might read it.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 07:51 Thank you. I think it was John who got us started in that verse, so thank you, John.

Hank Smith: 07:55 Well, we’ll give you credit Scott. What do you want to do next?

Dr. Scott Esplin: 07:57 Well, I think we ought to do something with 63. Ironically, section 63 is the longest of the sections yet and we haven’t touched it. In section 63 I tried to picture myself being in Kirtland. Let’s say I wasn’t one of the two dozen elders that went to Missouri to locate Zion. Joseph Smith’s back. How would I feel among the saints in Kirtland, have the prophet back amongst us, knowing what they went for, knowing that they were going to Missouri with the promise that if they were faithful they would locate Zion. With that in mind, you can get a feel for what’s going on in section 63. Human nature seems to divide us into different groups or camps. I try to imagine what would these saints be like in Kirtland when Joseph was gone. Then when he came back knowing that he had gone to locate Zion.

  08:48 As you read section 63, it seems clear that at least some of the saints were anxious to know. Did you find it Joseph? What’s it like? When can we go? How quickly can we go? When are we going to build Zion? This almost overly anxious group to go to Zion and that’s not a bad group. There’s those of us who are like that. The Lord says something and we want to do it immediately and we want it to happen now. The Lord’s going to address that group in the section. Then there’s the other human nature side of the group. That group that said, sure, you went to Missouri. Joseph, did you really find Zion? Are you sure? Do we really have to go? I kind of like it here in Kirtland, and the section’s going to address that group too, so for that group, I think the section begins with a discussion of sign seeking.

  09:35 If I were in Kirtland, I might say, Joseph, prove to me that you really found Zion. I’m skeptical here and the Lord has something to say about skepticism. The Lord has something to say about people who want signs for faith. People who say, I’ll believe you when you show me something. It starts, for example, in verse seven, he that seeketh signs shall see signs but not unto salvation. Verily I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs. There have been such, even from the beginning. I think he’s acknowledging in the Kirtland congregation, some of you wanted proof. Some of you wanted a sign that Joseph really had gone to Missouri and found Zion and then he continues. But behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe. Yea signs come by faith, not by the will of man, nor as they please, but by the will of God.

  10:24 Yea signs come by faith. When I have this discussion with my students, I try to ask, are signs in and of themselves inherently wrong? And the Lord doesn’t seem to be calling out that signs are wrong. In fact, in other places in scripture, he encourages us to seek for signs. To watch for signs to look for signs. Signs in and of themselves seem to be neutral. What seems to be the issue here is where do I place my faith? Is my faith before the sign or is it after the sign? Do I want a sign so that I’ll have faith or do I have faith and therefore see a sign? In Kirtland what was going on here is some of the people seemed to have wanted a sign or proof that Joseph really was being guided by God. We sometimes still do that today. We want a sign or proof that what the general authorities have taught us is correct or what our bishop has asked us to do by way of a church calling is from God.

  11:20 When God may be saying, I’ll give you a sign, but exercise a little bit of faith first. Step out into the darkness. Signs come by faith, not the other way around. Faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe. This first part of the section is a discussion. It seems to be to an element of the Kirtland community who’s wanting proof that Joseph really is a prophet of God. The work he’s doing with this thing to build Zion is from God. Where I find it interesting is he pivots from there from this discussion of sign seeking to verse 14 to adultery. That seems like a strange pivot at first glance. Why do you jump from sign seeking to adultery? This then brings us back to the New Testament, a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. The Lord throughout scripture seems to have connected these two principles or these two shortcomings or these two sins.

  12:18 We might appropriately say there’s something about sign seeking and adultery that they have in common that they share. We could have a discussion, what is it that adultery and sign seeking have in common? That the Lord linked in the New Testament and he links again here in the Doctrine and Covenants. When I share this with students, I often share this story from Joseph Smith, history of the church. He says, when I was preaching in Philadelphia, Quaker called out for a sign. I told him to be still after the sermon, he again asked for a sign. I told the congregation the man was an adulterer. That a wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign and the Lord had said to me in a revelation that any man who wanted a sign was an adulterous person. It is true, cried one, for I caught him in the very act which the man afterwards confessed when he was baptized. That’s a fascinating story. The Lord seems to be connecting these two sins. What’s at the root of them? Why does the Lord connect them? That’s where I think we could have some discussion in this section. What do we see between sign seeking and adultery that the Lord is putting together here?

John Bytheway: 13:20 It comes down to a something for nothing attitude. I want the testimony. I don’t want to do the work. I don’t want to do the prayer. I don’t want to do the study. I don’t want to do the repenting. I don’t want to do the humility. Just show me it’s true. First with adultery, I want the pleasure of another person. I don’t want any commitment. I don’t want any expectation. I just want the pleasure. For me, it always just sounds like a real something for nothing type of mindset that both of them fit into.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 13:51 In the context of Zion, they’re antithetical to creating Zion. We’ve just getting back from Zion where they were counseled how to become Zionlike so they could build Zion. Zion is rooted in people who believe. Here’s another possible connection. He said that signs come by faith. We talk about when someone commits adultery, we use the same term. They haven’t been faithful. Both are rooted in this commitment of faith that I’ve made a covenant and I’m going to be faithful to that. Covenant signs come by faith. When someone commits adultery, we say they haven’t been faithful. Even in our vernacular, even in our language as we talk, we connect them both to faith in one way or another. The Lord seems to be doing that here in section 63.

Hank Smith: 14:37 In the Old Testament, when Israel goes after a different God or seeks after… The Lord frequently refers to them as an adulterous people. They want some sort of different God than Jehovah. I wonder if that plays into that a little bit and there’s something about selfishness. I want what I want. Almost a self-centeredness of I’m the most important person here.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 15:01 Your comment there is a good one, Hank, when you talk about in the Old Testament context, adultery is not just the act of adultery as we sometimes talk about it, but it’s going after another God, not being true to your God. Breaking your covenant with God. This section talks about that as well as it relates to adultery. It’s not just the physical act. If you look down in verse 16, verily I say unto you, as I said before, he that looketh on a woman to lust after her or if anyone shall commit adultery in their hearts, they shall not have the Spirit, but shall deny the faith and shall fear. It’s not just the physical act. It’s our thoughts, it’s our desires. It’s what we’re thinking about that relates I think to your comment in the Old Testament, the Lord used the term adultery in multiple different contexts, not just the physical act that they’re talking about here.

Hank Smith: 15:48 But you’re right on here, Scott. Those are linked throughout scripture, sign seeking and adultery, which you might not automatically think. Oh, those two would be sisters, sister sins.

John Bytheway: 16:00 In the New Testament they came to Jesus. We would have a sign from thee and he would say it is a wicked and an adulterous generation. Yeah that statement of Joseph Smith is always like, wow. If you see somebody seeking a sign, then this, you’re like, whoa.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 16:16 I’ll give you another one John, this is the other statement from Joseph. I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all eternity. That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is on the high road to apostasy. Then he continues, and does not repent who apostatizes God lives. The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person and that principle is eternal undeviating and firm as the pillars of heaven. For whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man. Joseph and the Lord put these two sins together. Doctrine and Covenants in section 63 is doing the same.

John Bytheway: 16:59 Wow. I just love the phrase in verse nine. That’s also in Mark, the sequence of belief. They don’t preceed. Oh, I saw a sign now I believe. No, they follow those that believe. Believe first. Make that choice, make that exercise of faith and the signs will follow and you’ll go, yep. So brief, but it’s so good.

Hank Smith: 17:24 I wonder, John, if it, if there’s something to the sequence too of faithful people attract miracles. They attract.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 17:33 They follow them.

Hank Smith: 17:35 Yeah. They’re going to follow them. It’s not like, oh, you’ve been faithful. Okay, here’s a sign. It’s a natural fruit of being faithful.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 17:43 You’ll see that in verses 10 and 11. Signs come, they will come, I do believe in miracles. I do believe that signs will come as the fruit of faith. They will follow after faith. By their fruits ye shall know them.

John Bytheway: 17:57 The people who consistently write down their tender mercies, I think they have more. They have more of them.

Hank Smith: 18:04 I believe that too. Something simple that I’ve used before is the Lord says, jump and I’ll catch you. We say, catch me first, then I’ll jump. I think the Lord says, I don’t think you understand the sequence of how this is going to work. I can’t catch you until you jump and what did you say, Scott? Step into the darkness.

John Bytheway: 18:26 I was led by the Spirit not knowing beforehand. As soon as Nephi took a couple of steps, the Lord started to guide his feet.

Hank Smith: 18:35 That context helps us, Scott, that there’s people saying, I’m not moving to Missouri until you show me.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 18:42 As I read it, the historical background to this section indicates that there was some apostasy that had crept into Kirtland in Joseph’s absence. This must be what the Lord’s referring to. Things that are happening in Kirtland. The Lord seems displeased in section 63. There’s a little bit of a tone in this section. He’s displeased with what’s happened while Joseph and the saints were gone. It’s understandable. That’s only half the group, as we mentioned, human nature there. There’s another side. We’re trying to build Zion here. I think you can ruin Zion by being a sign seeker, by lacking faith, by doing what the first part of this section describes, but I think you can ruin Zion just as equally by being overzealous. The Lord talks about that starting at about verse 24. Now, behold, this is the will of the Lord concerning his saints, that they should assemble themselves together unto the land of Zion, not in haste unless there should be confusion, which bringeth pestilence.

  19:37 Behold the land of Zion, I the Lord, hold it in my hands. There may have been some in the Kirtland congregation who as soon as Joseph was back were ready to go. They wanted to go and they wanted to go now. If not yesterday. God is saying, Hey, you can ruin Zion by being overzealous just as much as ruining it by being under zealous. Don’t be hasty. I hold this place in my hands. Skip down to verse 27. Wherefore, I the Lord will that you should purchase the lands. We’re not taking over here. We’re going to make a purchase. We’re going to do things legally. I find this intriguing in verse 29. Wherefore, the land of Zion shall not be obtained but by purchase or by blood. Otherwise, there is none inheritance for you and if by purchase, behold you are blessed. There’s two ways to get Zion. You can fight for it or you can buy it. If you’ll choose the buy it option you’ll be so much more blessed. That’s the other half of the group. There’s one group who proved to me, Joseph, that you really found Zion, this group who wants to just run rough shot over the place. Go in in haste and God’s got to reign that group in. There’s a group that needs pushed forward and a group that needs reigned in in section 63. You’ll see both of them in the section.

Hank Smith: 20:52 Then you can see both of them around us, even in yourself.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 20:57 There’s times when I need to be reigned in and there’s times when I need to be pushed forward.

Hank Smith: 21:01 Yeah. Scott, now when I asked you to come on to the program, I know you’re very busy, you’re the dean, but I thought I want to have Scott back on the show. I didn’t realize that there would be this principle of speedily, but not in haste. This is not good, but the other side of the pendulum wasn’t good. In my experience with you, and I’ve known you a while, you are maybe one of the best people that I know who has mastered this balance between moving forward, but not too hasty. I am one who gets a little too excited, pushes the gas pedal and smashes the car. How did you learn that skill? Did it come naturally? I know you’re going to deflect a little bit, say Hank, I’m not that great, but you really are. John, in your experience with Scott, I bet you’d say the same thing. That very measured I think would be the

John Bytheway: 21:49 Mm-hmm Good word.

Hank Smith: 21:50 The key. Yeah. I’m excited, but let’s be deliberate. And careful.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 21:55 I don’t know Hank,  thank you. There’s probably been times in my life when I haven’t gone fast enough. For those who might know me well, I was into my thirties before my wife and I met and got married and fell in love. I certainly had loved ones, family members, friends, fellow employers or others who wanted me to be a little more speedy. I spent a large portion of my early life maybe not going as fast as I should have. I learned from that season in life that I needed to move forward. I needed to act in faith that the power was in me. I was an agent unto myself waiting to be told all the time. Fearful of making a mistake, especially in eternal matters, made me paralyzed to making decisions. So I learned from that that I needed to move forward speedily, but then the Lord balanced that out with good wise people who taught me, who modeled for me how to not go so quickly that you’re missing out on people who are need along the way. I don’t know what the answer is, Hank. I’ve been blessed with a lot of really good people who have modeled these principles for me who have come into my life and are the colleagues that I work with, the students that I serve, episodes I’ve had in my life, people around me, in my ward, in my neighborhood who model for me how to be Zionlike. We’ve got a lot of really good role models.

Hank Smith: 23:17 Well learning from someone who has seemed to work out that yes, let’s move forward. Yes, this is exciting, easy, easy, slow down where the Lord says we’re not going to go in guns blazing and taking over the land of Zion. In fact, that may be one of the problems later on in Zion. There are some of the statements, right Scott, the Latter-day Saints make in Zion saying, oh, you better convert because this is ours.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 23:43 This is our land. God has given it to us. Or there will be people who will go up to Zion without a recommend. They’re going to overwhelm the place. Then the Lord’s going to have to give some very specific instructions. Those who go to Zion without recommends are going to be excommunicated. That’s really strong rebuke for this group in Zion. I like also, we probably could look at verses 40 and 41. These have application for us today. How can I build Zion today? Am I supposed to relocate to Missouri? Probably not right now or if ever I don’t know. But in verse 40, here’s something I can do. Let all the monies which can be spared it mattereth not unto me. There’s that phrase again. The fourth time in four sections, it mattereth not unto me, whether it be a little or much be sent up unto the land of Zion unto them whom I’ve appointed to receive.

  24:30 I can build Zion by paying my tithes and offerings, whether it be little or whether it be much. I can build Zion by making contributions in time, talents, and energies to build God’s kingdom. I can live a consecrated life, whether it be little or whether it be much, whether I give a lot or a little. If I will give it to those whom God has appointed to receive, I will build Zion. Then verse 41, behold I the Lord will give unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jr. power that he shall be enabled to discern by the Spirit, those who shall go up to the land of Zion and those of my disciples who shall tarry. I believe that the Lord holds Zion in his hands. He says that in verse 25, and I believe it’s up to the Lord’s servants to discern how and when it’s going to be built in a physical way.

  25:13 It’ll be President Nelson and or his successors who will discern who and how until that day comes about, what can I do? I can make my tithes and offerings, I can contribute to the building of Zion in that small way. Help build up God’s kingdom. You’ll see it again in verse 48. He that sendeth up treasures unto the land of Zion shall receive an inheritance in this world and his work shall follow him. Also, a reward in the world to come. I love the good saints who whether it be little or much build up God’s kingdom, I believe the reward will follow them in this life and in the next. Those are things I can do. You’ve got this one group who I think needs to be pushed. Another group who needs to be reigned in. The Lord teaches these balancing principles for both.

Hank Smith: 25:56 Yeah. I’m enjoying this balancing the tension you called it, between important, not too far this way and not too far that way. What do you think, John? You’re also a very measured person. Why am I the only person here that just goes gangbusters into something and ends up ruining it?

John Bytheway: 26:17 Well, thanks for that unearned compliment. I may think too hard. Does anyone have analysis paralysis? They think too hard before diving in. That may be more my side. My analysis paralysis not moving fast enough. Isn’t it wonderful? The Lord works with all of us. I watched an interview with President Eyring and President Oaks about President Nelson. They made such an interesting comment about his background as a heart surgeon. As a heart surgeon if you see a problem when somebody is opened up in front of you, you don’t say, let me think about this for a while. They said that when he knows that something needs to be done, he just does it and I thought, how interesting. Seeing let’s renovate the Salt Lake temple. Let’s do it now. Those were all measured too. I love that insight that a surgeon would say, I’m not going to go home and read my scriptures about this while this patient is opened up on the operating table. Act right now. I need to be more on that side. Probably.

Hank Smith: 27:29 You can learn to trust yourself, trust that you’re being guided. I’m really enjoying today’s balance because that’s where wisdom is. I hope someone out there can identify with me in that. I’m one that acts too quickly, thinks later. What is it John? Ready, fire, aim. Sara has said to me before, if we would’ve talked about this, I could have maybe helped you not act so quickly because now we’re cleaning up the mess.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 27:57 What’s wonderful in that Hank is you have someone like that that balances you. You can bring strengths to the companionship. Those strengths are important. She can bring strengths to the companionship and those strengths are important and together you build God’s kingdom and we need both kinds. We need the Hanks and the Johns. We need the different perspectives. We mentioned going back to my past, I have on my shelf in my office a little sign someone made for me when I was dating my wife that says, move forward. They just made a little sign. Move forward Scott, this analysis paralysis, just move forward, Scott, move forward and things will work out and eternally and gratefully they have. You want to find someone like that. Who completes you. Who makes you whole. You mentioned President Nelson and his background as a heart surgeon. John, think about the wonderful balance you get in the current entire first presidency between a heart surgeon, an attorney and a judge and a university professor and the strengths and talents and backgrounds and abilities all three of them bring to decision making that’s valuable in councils, that’s valuable in a marriage. I think there’s wisdom in that.

Hank Smith: 29:00 Scott, I see that balance here with what you’ve taught us about Zion. Well, I want to go up to Zion. I want to build it today. The Lord says, how about here’s something you can do, pay what you can towards the building of Zion. That’s a very measured way of contributing that is unlikely to run anybody over, but it’s also something you can do to move forward.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 29:23 The other group who needed some repenting to do you, you need to repent. You need to repent of sign seeking of adultery, of sins that are keeping us from building Zion. There are a couple of interesting historically, and this will set the stage for where you’re going to go next week. I find a couple of interesting episodes in this section as well. Almost balancing perspectives, compare and contrast verses 38 and 39 with verse 42. If you look in 38 and 39, wherefore let my disciples in Kirtland arrange their temporal concerns who dwell upon this farm. Let my servant Titus Billings, who has the care thereof, dispose the land that he may be prepared in the coming spring to take his journey up in the land of Zion. So he’s supposed to sell this farm. If you read carefully, it seems pretty clear it’s actually not his farm.

  30:07 He only has the care thereof, but he’s supposed to sell this farm. Whereas Newel K. Whitney in verse 42 is told to retain his store for a little season. Again, we’re balancing one person’s supposed to move and move immediately to Zion and the other person’s supposed to stay in Kirtland for a little season longer. The Lord in his wisdom knows there’s times in life when some people need to move forward, others need to wait. You’re balancing Titus Billings and Newel K. Whitney. The end of the story for the Titus Billings one I mentioned that it doesn’t say that it’s actually his farm. It isn’t his farm, it’s his brother-in-law’s farm. A guy by the name of Isaac Morley. Isaac Morley is one of those missionaries who’s been with Joseph in Missouri. He left his farm in the care of Titus Billings before he got home.

  30:57 The Lord gave a command that Titus Billings should sell Isaac Morley’s farm, section 64, which you’ll study next week. Isaac Morley’s now home and you can imagine what his question is. What do you mean my farm was sold? This culminates with our discussion of Zion. The Lord addresses Isaac Morley and says about his farm in section 64 verse 20, and again I say unto you that my servant Isaac Morley may not be tempted above that which he is able to bear and counsel wrongfully to your hurt. I gave commandment that his farm should be sold. God sells Isaac Morley’s farm then teaches this great principle in verse 34. Behold the Lord requires the heart and a willing mind and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. If you want to be part of Zion, God’s going to require your heart. That might be, I don’t want your heart set on a farm. I don’t want your heart set on anything besides building my kingdom. That’s the Titus Billings bridge to the next week’s lesson with Isaac Morley.

John Bytheway: 31:55 That’s cool.

Hank Smith: 31:56 Wow. Isaac Morley, from my knowledge, stays faithful his entire life. I can’t imagine when some of our children come home from missions, they find out their bedroom has been turned into a craft room, but he gets home and his farm, which is a large farm, has been sold.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 32:15 And bless his eternal soul. Like you said, he stays faithful. It’s an interesting phrase that he may not be tempted above that which he’s able to bear. It’s almost as if I knew this would be hard for you, Isaac, almost more than you could bear, so I did it before you got home. I saved your soul. I mentioned this I think before, but Isaac’s my third great-grandfather, I’m eternally grateful he didn’t up and leave the church here. He stayed with it, stayed in the kingdom. If you want to be part of Zion, God’s going to require the heart. These sections from section 60 to 63, 64, Joseph has gone to Zion to try to locate and establish it and the Lord says, well, as Elder Christofferson taught, Zion is both a people and a place, here we’re learning how Zionlike people act.

Hank Smith: 33:02 Talk about something you could be offended by. I went on a mission and they sold my farm. I’m officially offended, but he doesn’t. Wow. All the descendants out there of Isaac Morley. It’s time to do a little cheer. Wow, Scott, he’s your great-great-grandfather.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 33:18 Yeah, I think he’s my third great-grandfather. Titus Billings sells his farm, his brother-in-law and but then on the flip side, Newel K. Whitney who I assume would’ve wanted to go to Zion is told retain his store for a little season. He’ll do an important work in Kirtland. I mean, think about everything that the Newel K. Whitney store means for church history. That’s the place for the school of the prophets, the word of wisdom, all the things that come out of. I guess we should have mentioned this. I didn’t even say this fascinating verse back to that Isaac Morley, Titus Billings sell the farm. Joseph and Emma live on that farm. Imagine being Joseph and saying Emma, guess what? I just got a command that we’re selling the place where we live too.

Hank Smith: 33:56 Yeah, we’re moving again.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 33:59 This is when they will move out to the Johnson Farm, in Hiram. Newel K. Whitney’s going to keep his store and then that store is going to be an important place in church history. I think the Lord knows what he’s doing.

Hank Smith: 34:09 Yeah, the Lord knows what he is doing. I will always think of Isaac Morley just a little differently. I did not know that. Isaac I knew it would be so hard for you, but I thought let’s just do it right now. I wonder about Titus and Isaac having this. I just want to see that discussion. Yeah. Wait, what?

Dr. Scott Esplin: 34:31 Guess what happened before you got home?

Hank Smith: 34:33 Yeah. Oh wow.

John Bytheway: 34:35 Hank, I’m glad you went to speak the other night, but we sold your truck while you were gone.

Hank Smith: 34:41 I come out to the parking lot and it’s gone.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 34:45 That you may not be tempted more than you can bear Hank. It was too great a temptation. I don’t know if this is helpful or not, but if you go to section 64 verse 28, but behold it is not said at any time that the Lord should not take when he please and pay as seemeth him good. I think in this case the Lord is taking something as he pleases and it was never said God could not do that. It was never said at any time that God should not take when he pleases and pay as seemeth him good. I think sometimes it’s human nature. We get mad at God when something is taken from us or when we don’t think we get paid fast enough. We were good and God hasn’t paid us yet. God gets to set the timing. It is not said at any time that the Lord should not take when he pleases.

  35:29 For those parents who have had a child taken early in life, that’s a Zion building experience. That’s a heart testing experience. To have something taken like that we’re lightheartedly talking about a farm, there’s much more significant things taken. We think about the loss of a loved one or someone’s health or other things and that’s a sobering verse. It is not said at any time the Lord should not take when he please and pay as seemeth him good. Then jump down to verse 34. The Lord requires the heart. If I want to be part of Zion, my heart sometimes gets tested. Is my heart set on a farm? Is it set on physical objects? Sometimes he takes when he pleases and pays as seemeth him good.

Hank Smith: 36:18 Scott, I’d like to ask you a question about Zion. I’ve marked every time Zion comes up in section 63. It seems to be important. It seems that it’s a major topic in 1831. In your studies, what is Zion to these people?

Dr. Scott Esplin: 36:38 I think Zion has progressed across time in scripture. Early in the Doctrine and Covenants I think the first reference to Zion is section six. Chronologically the Lord says, seek to establish and bring forth the cause of Zion. It starts off as a cause. Then by section 25, Emma Smith is told if she’s faithful, she shall receive an inheritance in Zion. It seems to pivot to a place. Then section 28 of the Doctrine & Covenants Oliver Cowdery is told that Zion is located on the borders by the Lamanites. We’re still thinking about physical place here. Joseph goes and tries to locate the place in section 57 and it’s on a lot the center place of Zion, a temple lot just west of the courthouse in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. They’re still thinking in terms of physical place. I think early in the Doctrine and Covenants, it moves from being a cause to something physical, a tangible location.

  37:29 They’re eventually driven out from that location. They aren’t able to establish Zion in their lifetimes. They’re still wondering what’s going to happen. One of the latest references chronologically in the Doctrine & Covenants in 136. This is the revelation organizing the camp of Israel to come west from Winter Quarters. That must have been an interesting thought for them. Wait, we’re going to the tops of the mountain. We’re going to Utah. That’s the wrong direction. Joseph had taught that Missouri was Zion and we’re going the wrong way. We’re going further, not closer. What are we doing? And the Lord says here in verse 18, Zion shall be redeemed in my own due time. I don’t think God ever gives up on Zion. I just think he changes their perspective. In our own modern church, we hear church leaders referring to statements like this one from the prophet Joseph.

  38:14 The building up of Zion is a cause that has interested the people of God in every age. It is a theme upon which prophets, priests and kings have dwelt with peculiar delight. They have looked forward with joyful anticipation to the day in which we live and fired with heavily and joyful anticipations they have sung and written and prophesied of this our day. I still think we’re trying to build Zion. We’re maybe not so focused on a location, but we’re focused on becoming Zionlike, living the principles of Zion. Zion is both a people and a place. Zion is a process. I could read you quotes that we sometimes use in class on this one. This one is Elder Christofferson. Zion is both a place and a people. And this is Elder Hales, This promised Zion always seems to be a little beyond our reach. We need to understand that as much virtue can be gained in progressing towards Zion and us dwelling there. It is a process as well as a destination. Many are perfected upon the road to Zion who will never see the city in mortality.

  39:09 This is Elder Christofferson again. Zion is Zion because of the character attributes and faithfulness of our citizens. We cannot wait until Zion comes for these things to happen. Zion will only come as they happen. And then President Benson, only a Zion people can bring in a Zion society. I think we’ve shifted from focused as they were early in the church on where is it going to be located to how are we going to build it because only a Zionlike people can build Zion.

Hank Smith: 39:37 I loved what you said earlier that the when questions don’t get answered perhaps because the Lord says, I’m ready when you are. Build Zion and I am ready. The king will come as soon as there’s a kingdom to come to.

John Bytheway: 39:52 I love that idea of Jesus ministering one by one and in the same way maybe Zion will be built one by one, one heart at a time. We get Zion in our hearts. What was the famous statement Hank? That it wasn’t so much getting the children of Israel out of Egypt as of getting the Egypt out of the children of Israel. We’ve got to get Zion in our hearts. Then it will be more of a cause. Maybe someday will be a place. I mean I’m looking forward to that, but…

Hank Smith: 40:20 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 40:21 Maybe the sequence is messed up.

Hank Smith: 40:24 I find myself sometimes I think I have the attitude of, well I can’t wait to build Zion as soon as other people do then I will consecrate because if they are not going to consecrate, and they are not going to consecrate, well then why am I going to move forward in my consecration? That seems to be the attitude that stops everyone from trying to build Zion is I want other people to do this first. With that in mind, how do I decide that no matter what anybody else is doing, I’m doing this. Zion is my mission. Building Zion in my home, in my ward, in my stake in the church. How have you both done that?

John Bytheway: 41:06 And I’m sitting here just hoping something doesn’t get sold while I’m sitting here right now that I didn’t know about so I’ve got a long way to go.

Hank Smith: 41:15 Consecration is hard.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 41:17 I think about a couple of verses in section 105 of the Doctrine & Covenants. So this is after they were driven out of Zion in 1833 and then a year later went and tried to redeem Zion. The Zion’s camp and section 105 outlines what I need to work on what I can do to build Zion. If you start in verse two, Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now. You could have done this. If it weren’t then for some problems. But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them; And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

  42:03 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom. For me, those are the principles. Zion can’t be built unless I learn to be obedient unless I learn to impart of my substance to the poor unless I learn to become united. You’ll recognize those are the same principles in Moses 7:18 and the Lord called his people Zion because they were of one heart and one mind. They dwelt in righteousness. There were no poor among them. Zion cannot be built up unless it’s upon the principles of this law. I should ask myself, which of these principles am I not living that is keeping Zion from being built? Could I care for the poor and needy among me better? Could I be more united with my ward, with my family, with my loved ones, with the church? Could I be more obedient? Could I work on my righteousness? And as I do those three things, I’ll build Zion.

Hank Smith: 42:57 What a great reference. Zion’s problem seems to be more internal than what’s happening externally. It’s it’s happening internally. John, are you going to teach me how to be more Zionlike?

John Bytheway: 43:09 We hear it a million times. You know the law of Moses was very out there and the Lord said, you’ve got to get the commandments written on your heart. It’s always in here where it matters.

Hank Smith: 43:21 I would add that section 105 reference. I think that’s a brilliant place to go to identify some specific things. It helps me think in this terms that the opposite of Zion is Babylon. If I identify what I don’t want to be, maybe it can help me move to where I do want to be. I know Babylon is sinful and selfish. Babylon seems to mock others. I could identify those things in my own life when I am sinful, selfish, mocking other people. I would maybe take a look at it a different way and yes, identifying what I need to do and then identifying what I need to stop doing.

John Bytheway: 44:04 Like what are my un-Zion behaviors?

Hank Smith: 44:08 Lord help me to do this. I think he might tell us like he did to Isaac Morley, I’m going to help you do this because I know it’s going to be hard. I’ve heard often that we can start building Zion in our own home. If someone’s listening going, I don’t even know where to start. This is such a huge thing. Building Zion on the earth. Where do I start? And you might say, well you start at home. What have you seen works at home. John, you’ve taught me to repent with my family, to my family

John Bytheway: 44:41 In family prayer.

Hank Smith: 44:42 In family prayer. When we’re all gathered, it’s okay to say I was wrong.

John Bytheway: 44:47 In the Proclamation to the World on the Family, it talks about wholesome recreational activities. My kids, when we can spend time together and get along and have a blast, it has gone a long way. There’s some moments of Zion, we’ve had some Zion moments in our family and it’s not all when we’re in family prayer, scripture study, sometimes we’re playing a game. It creates memories. I’ve seen them stick up for each other and defend each other and it makes me so grateful. But I think as part of it, they have a history together. My wife told me when she was in high school that her best friends were not in school. They were her siblings, which not everybody could say that, but she loved her family because they did so much stuff together.

Hank Smith: 45:36 John, I remember you asking a group of youth once, if you treated your friends the way you treat your family, how many friends would you have?

John Bytheway: 45:45 Would you have any friends? I think I saw that in the New Era or something.

Hank Smith: 45:48 Stuck with me. Scott, knowing your family a little bit, how have you tried to build Zion at home?

Dr. Scott Esplin: 45:58 Try is the operative word. I’m not sure we’re perfect at it and those who know our family will certainly attest to that. They should do more trying I think. We’ve talked about a couple of things. Interestingly, we talked about preaching the gospel and we sometimes think about that as something we do external. When I’m a full-time missionary or when I’m working with someone who’s not a member of our faith or whatever the case may be, I have people right around me who with whom I should be preaching the gospel. Finding overt ways to let my children know that I believe that the Lord is good to me. Helping them see his hand in our lives is one way we can build Zion in our home. Help identifying for our children times when they feel the Holy Ghost. At times when we felt it together.

  46:42 I don’t think preaching the gospel is something we do formally when I wear a badge. I probably more frequently will do it with my family than I will ever in a formal setting. That’s one thing we’ve talked about. We didn’t even look at these verses because it really wasn’t part of the lesson for this week. But back in section 58 of the Doctrine & Covenants, we talked in 57 how Joseph asked when, when and where. And the Lord answered where but not when. When He seems to follow up with a when question. You’ll notice in verse one of section 58 Hearken elders of my church and give ear to my word and learn of me what I will concerning you and also concerning this land unto which I have sent you. Zion is both a place and a people. Now he’s going to talk about both of them, you and the land.

  47:24 Then he says in verses two and three, verily I say unto you, blessed is he that keepeth my commandments, whether in life or in death, he that is faithful in tribulation. The reward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven. Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation. For after much tribulation come the blessings. Sometimes becoming Zionlike we go through trials, we go through tribulations. There’s something about our difficulties, our challenges that if approached properly, can perfect us, can move us more quickly along the path towards Zion. You know Hank that my wife had some health challenges the last little over a year now. And I think about these verses you cannot behold with your natural eyes for the present time, the design of your God and the things which shall come hereafter and the glory which shall follow after much tribulation for after much tribulation come the blessings.

  48:22 I’m grateful for God’s hand in our lives. I’m grateful for the blessings we’ve seen through tribulation. It’s united us as a family. I’ve watched my children, they become a lot more clingy to their mother in the last year. They want to be with her. They want to touch her. They want to hold her. That’s just a natural child’s reaction to the scary thought that they could lose her. It’s united us as a family. It’s brought us closer together as a family. It’s made us more like Zion. I’ve watched what it’s done for my neighbors, for my neighborhood. I live with some of the best people in the world. The people who surround us, the people I work with, the people I live with in my neighborhood. Their kindness, their generosity has introduced a new aspect of living in a Zionlike community. I live in a stake of Zion. They are stakes of Zion. That is their formal title. Trials and tribulation, and ours are small. I don’t want to make them bigger than they are. Things are good, things are great. Things are going really, really well and we’re blessed. But through trials it’s made me appreciate Zionlike people around us and it’s made us a little bit more like Zion. We’re at least a little more united than maybe we were before. And if that’s the price we pay to become united in the eternities, that may be worth it.

Hank Smith: 49:37 Scott, thanks for that. I can tell when I’m feeling the Holy Ghost, when I think I can do better, I can be better. I can do my part in building the kingdom of God, building Zion on the earth. Scott, since we have you here, maybe we’ll ask one more question. There’s a narrative maybe out there among some that if you really dive into the history of the church, you’ll probably lose your faith. Yet we have had guest after guest after guest tell us that that’s not true. You’ve spent, you don’t look it, but we’re getting up there in the decades of teaching this, studying it and teaching it, researching it. It’s been your career. What a blessing to study the history of the church as a career. What would you say to someone who thinks, I don’t know if I can trust the history of the church. I don’t want to look at it. I don’t want to lose my faith. And yet here you’ve studied it more than most. Your faith is even stronger. What would you say to someone in that position?

Dr. Scott Esplin: 50:41 That’s a good question, Hank. I think in the end, faith is a gift. We could pray for it. We’re taught to pray for gifts, pray for the gift of faith. When I was a young seminary teacher decades ago, I had a quote on my wall. It was from President Joseph Smith that said, the hand of the Lord may not be visible to all, but there are those in every moment of this church from its beginning until now, who see the overruling almighty hand of God. The year I was teaching that year in seminary, I wasn’t seeing God’s hand in my life and I was frustrated. It was challenging and things weren’t working out for a variety of levels. I remember looking at that quote thinking, yeah, that’s not true. Where’s God’s hand in my life? And where is God’s hand? And I started praying to see God’s hand.

  51:27 I won’t say that’s always happened. I won’t say that I’ve always seen it, but I believe that God’s hand is in this work and I’ve seen it over and over again. The more I study, the more I read the Doctrine & Covenants, the more I study church history, the more I see God’s hand, the more I see his hand in the early history of the church and the more I see his hand in my life, there are those who see in every moment of this church from it’s beginning until now the overruling Almighty hand of God. And I wanted to be one of those people. I believe that faith is a gift and if we pray for it, we might be able to see, pray for the gift of faith. Don’t be afraid of our history. I don’t shy away from our history. I don’t shy away from teaching it. I don’t shy away from studying it. I love the words of the Lord because I believe you can see God’s hand there. I believe that happens.

Hank Smith: 52:13 I’ve been fascinated, Scott, as you’ve been teaching us. John, I’ve said this before, but I think it bears repeating that the wisdom that Scott has shown us here, these principles are life changing, family changing. This was written by a 25-year-old. Imagine what we’ve just discussed for the last few hours being written by a 25-year-old. That alters your perspective. Looking at this. Well, the wisdom is there I’ve seen it. Where does he get this wisdom? Where does he get this insight?

John Bytheway: 52:50 The evidence just keeps piling up. You read the Book of Mormon and you think this is beyond what a farmer. This is beyond Sidney Rigdon, and this is beyond, and then you get stack after stack of these. This is the pen of heaven, as you’ve said in some of these spots. Yeah.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 53:10 What the introduction to the Doctrine and Covenants says in the revelations one hears the tender, but firm voice of the Lord Jesus Christ speaking anew in the dispensation of the fullness of times, and I can’t read these revelations and not hear his voice. These are not just Joseph’s words. These are in the one hears the tender, but firm voice of the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking anew. I love the Doctrine & Covenants. I love the principles it contains.

Hank Smith: 53:33 Well, Scott, thank you. Thank you for spending your time with us.

Dr. Scott Esplin: 53:36 Thank you both. It’s good to be with you. Thanks for all the good you do. Thank you for letting me join you and talk about these sections. I appreciate it.

Hank Smith: 53:44 It’s been so much fun.

John Bytheway: 53:45 Thank you.

Hank Smith: 53:46 Speedily, but not in haste. Not in haste. I’m going to have to integrate that into my, into my psyche. Scott, it’s been wonderful. We want to thank Dr. Scott Esplin for being with us today. If you’d like to come on to YouTube, tell Scott, tell us where you’re listening from. It’s always fun to share with our guests where people were listening from. Anywhere from Orem to New Zealand. We want to hear from you. Also, while you’re on YouTube, if you would subscribe to the channel that helps us quite a bit. You can come over for any show notes, quotes, anything was mentioned today. You can just go over to follow him.co. Follow him.co. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. He was all about building Zion.

  54:39 The entire Sorensen family is. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to talk more about returning from Zion to Kirtland on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Follow him.co. That’s follow him.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Iride Gonzalez, and Annabelle Sorensen.