Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name’s Hank Smith, and I’m here with my co-host, John Bytheway, who suffereth long and is kind and envieth not, and is not puffed up, does not seek his own, not easily provoked, never thinks of evil. I could keep going here, John.

John Bytheway: 00:00:23 I think I’m about three out of eight there.

Hank Smith: 00:00:26 All of those things are true.

John Bytheway: 00:00:29 I haven’t eaten yet, so I’m not puffed up yet.

Hank Smith: 00:00:33 We’re also here with our guest Dr. Mark Ogletree. John, we are almost through the Book of Mormon. It is crazy to think that we’ve come this far. As we are hitting these final chapters today, Moroni seven, eight, and nine, what are you thinking about? What’s coming to mind?

John Bytheway: 00:00:53 When we finished the book of Mormon within the Book of Mormon, it was Moroni talking. Now, we’re in the book of Moroni, and Mormon is talking. It teaches us something about this awesome father-son relationship. Here’s Moroni saying, “My dad wrote me this letter. You’ve got to see what he said.” I think we can infer something about their friendship, and some of it says it right out. “I recommend thee, my son,” so I’m looking forward to seeing both of these wonderful men of Christ talk to each other here.

Hank Smith: 00:01:23 Man, I love that John. I think of Moroni all alone, maybe pouring over these letters. This is his connection with his father. John, like I said, we have Dr. Mark Ogletree here. Mark and I have been friends for a long time. Mark, as you looked at these chapters, what did you see? Where do you want to go?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:01:43 We could start with Monte Nyman’s great statement that Mormon’s sermon here in chapter seven ranks as one of the greatest surpassed only by the Savior. Just think of the depth as we talk about faith, hope, charity, love, meekness, all these great Christlike attributes. We’ll talk about family and children in chapter eight, and then in chapter nine, what happens to a society when they lose the Spirit? Those are some of the keys that we could focus on today.

Hank Smith: 00:02:12 Wonderful. Well, John and I are looking forward to it. We’re getting close to the grand finale of the Book of Mormon, and it doesn’t fizzle out. We go out with some incredible chapters here. John, Mark has never been with us before. I’ve been holding him back.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:02:28 You guys are reaching up to the bottom of the batting order here. This is incredible. Say for the last inning, right?

Hank Smith: 00:02:35 John, tell us all about Mark.

John Bytheway: 00:02:38 Yes, Mark D. Ogletree is a professor of church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University. He also owns and operates a private practice in marriage and family therapy. Mark has written numerous articles and books on marriage and family-related topics. I know my son has First Comes Love and then Comes Marriage. I think he wrote those with Doug Brinley. Along with his wife, Janie, he hosts a weekly podcast called Preserving Families. He has another podcast called Stand by My Servants, which is a perfect topic, and a couple of recent books, one called, So You’re In Love, Now What?

  00:03:14 This would be great for young single adults, and then 20 questions and answers about making that marriage partner decision, and another one called Heaven Is Cheering You On, which sounds really nice. I’ve benefited from Brother Ogletree for a long time, and some people might recognize the name Ogletree. Wasn’t there a Brandon Ogletree? Wasn’t there a linebacker introduced himself to opposing quarterbacks at a high rate of speed?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:03:40 He did. He did.

John Bytheway: 00:03:42 Thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:03:45 Guys, so good to be with you. Once again, we are longtime listeners, so grateful for how you’ve blessed our family and our friends over the years. You’re wonderful, and we’re so grateful for this podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:03:56 That means a lot to us, Mark. We hope everyone will go check out Mark’s podcasts. John, what are they again?

John Bytheway: 00:04:03 Preserving Families with Janie and Stand By My Servants.

Hank Smith: 00:04:08 We love our sister podcasts out there. Mark, I’m going to read from the Come, Follow Me manual. The title of this lesson is May Christ Lift Thee Up. Before Moroni concluded the record we know today as the Book of Mormon with his final words, he shared three messages from his father, Mormon, an address to the peaceful followers of Christ, and two letters that Mormon had written to Moroni. Perhaps Moroni included these messages in the Book of Mormon because he foresaw similarities between the perils of his day and ours.

  00:04:37 When these words were written, the Nephite people were turning away from the Savior. Many of them had lost their love one towards another, and delighted in everything, save that which is good. Yet, Mormon still found cause for hope, teaching us that hope does not mean ignoring or being naive about the world’s problems. Hope means having faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ whose power is greater and more everlasting than these problems. It means laying hold upon every good thing. It means letting the atonement of Jesus Christ and the hope of his glory and of eternal life rest in your mind.

  00:05:10 Wow, that was beautiful and it gets me excited for today. So Mark, where do you want to start?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:05:17 I thought about that, and I thought let’s just go right to the first verse. But before we do, I thought it would be great to think of Moroni seven and eight and nine in the context of what went on in the book of Mormon, how we say it that way, meaning, Mormon one through nine. These are just some chapter heading snippets here for a minute. Mormon 1, wickedness, unbelief, sorceries, the world is so wicked. The three Nephites are taken off the face of the earth. Mormon 2, blood and carnage sweep the land, extreme wickedness. Mormon 3, think about this. Mormon refuses to lead them. Think of any type of leader in the church that’s like, “Okay, that’s it. I’m done.” He refuses to be their leader, because they’re so wicked.

  00:06:00 Mormon 4, war and carnage, the wicked punish the wicked. Women and children are sacrificed to idols. The Nephites don’t repent. Now, Mormon 5, more blood and carnage. Now, the Spirit ceases to strive with them. Then how about this? From Mormon, I was without hope. When the leader says, “I was without hope.” When the prophet says, “We have no hope,” duck. Take cover. He’s saying that because no one is listening. They’re rejecting the words of a prophet. So, we talk in that Mormon chapter five once again of a group of people who have completely lost the Spirit. It even tells us they were led by Satan at this point.

  00:06:41 So, there’s more, but I think that’s a great backdrop when you think about those people and how wicked they were and how much they lost the Spirit, how they’re following Satan. Now, watch what Mormon’s going to talk about through Moroni in these chapters that we’re going to address seven, eight, nine, in the context of, “Okay, guys, don’t lose the Spirit. Become like Christ. Acquire His attributes. Do things for the right reasons. Learn to make decisions. Learn to make judgments based on true principles. Seek for peace. Obtain charity.”

  00:07:16 If you think of it, in the Book of Mormon, meaning chapters one through nine, this is all somewhere between 321 and 385 A.D. So now, we shift over to Moroni, and it’s 400 A.D. It’s 400. It’s 421. But here’s the part we don’t know. Technically, these messages are given 15 years later after all that blood, carnage, wickedness, but maybe Mormon actually gave the messages much earlier. In fact, maybe he’s giving these messages while all this craziness is going on in 385, 375 A.D. We don’t know that part.

  00:07:53 My point is it’s really fresh on his mind of how quickly a society can degenerate when they lose the Spirit. With that as a backdrop, I think I would just go into the first three verses for a second. What if we did this, and had some fun? How about Hank reads verse one, John verse two, and I’ll read verse three, and then we’ll talk?

Hank Smith: 00:08:12 Moroni 7:1, “And now, I, Moroni, write a few of the words of my Father Mormon, which he spake concerning faith, hope and charity. For after this manner, did he speak unto the people as he taught them in the synagogue which they had built for the place of worship.”

John Bytheway: 00:08:28 “And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren, and it is by the grace of God, the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me that I’m permitted to speak unto you at this time.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:08:42 “And then wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which you can enter into the rest of the Lord from this time henceforth until you shall rest with him in heaven.” Now, going back to verse two for a second, I don’t think we ever land on this one long enough, but think about what Mormon may be telling us. He’s telling us that it was miraculous. “It was a miracle that I’m able to speak to you at this time. It was by the grace of God and my calling that I’m permitted to speak in my mind.” I don’t want to guess too much, but in my mind, it was such a crazy chaotic world they were living in. To preach in the synagogue, see verse one, was probably miraculous.

  00:09:25 But then we get unto the peaceable followers of Christ entering into the Lord’s rest, and I just thought, “Okay, let’s talk about that just for a second.” This is Joseph F. Smith. He says, “What does it mean to enter into God’s rest?” He said, “In my mind, it means entering into the knowledge and love of God, having faith in His purpose and in His plan to such an extent that we know that we’re right and that we are not hunting for something else. We’re not disturbed by every wind of doctrine or by the cunning and craftiness of men. We know the doctrine that’s of God. We don’t ask any questions of anyone about it. We are welcome to their opinions, to their ideas, but I pray that we may all enter into God’s rest.”

  00:10:09 Then he said this, “Rest from fear, rest from doubt, and rest from apprehension of danger. Rest from the religious turmoil of the world.” But in my mind, I’m thinking, “Okay, I think he’s telling us about peace. I think he’s telling us that despite how wicked the world is, and how crazy it is that we can still have peace in this life. Elder Quentin L. Cook talked in 2013, gave a wonderful message called Personal Peace: The Reward for Righteousness. In that message, he makes it very clear that universal peace is gone. In fact, when the Savior came, that was after he left, universal peace is over, but personal peace, he said, is something that each of us can have in our lives.

  00:10:51 I think about our prophet, President Nelson, who has told us that we can have happiness and joy regardless of the circumstances if we are focused on the right thing. Then in the world we live in today, we’ve got to be focused on the right stuff. “Look unto me in every thought. Doubt not, fear not.” We focus on the Savior and on our families, and there are other things we can focus on that will bring great happiness here to us in this life, and great peace despite the crazy world that we live in.

John Bytheway: 00:11:22 What does it mean to be a peaceable follower? I had supposed like you that this is such a time of war that it was a contrast to be with the peaceable followers of Christ. I like what you said, “This universal peace is gone.” Elder Cook said, “Since Christ.” I’d love to hear more about what it means to be a peaceable follower. I want to know if I’m doing that.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:11:46 One of the awesome things in my mind is we have a prophet. We have a prophet, seer, and revelator in President Nelson who’s taught us exactly how to be peaceable followers. He’s spent a lot of time about teaching us how to be peacemakers. Here’s President Nelson saying that contention drives away the spirit. Think about that contention in the context of Mormonism. It drives away the Spirit. Then he says this, “Contention is a choice, but also, peacemaking is a choice. We have our agency to choose contention or reconciliation, and I urge you to be a peacemaker now and always.”

  00:12:19 Then one of the ways he talks about that is we could be the role models. As members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we can be the role models of how to manage honest differences of opinion. President Nelson, in that same talk, Peacemakers Needed said that charity is the antidote to contention. We know that this discourse on charity and this chapter, it’s coming quite a few verses later, but he says that charity is the principal characteristic of a true follower of Christ. His true disciples build, lift, encourage, persuade, and inspire no matter how difficult the situation. True disciples of Christ are peacemakers.

  00:12:57 I don’t know, John, if that answers the full question on how to be a peacemaker, but it certainly highlights the way that we could be peacemakers with those around us. Elder Cook in his talk on having peace in our life, he talked about the peace that can come from, once again, being connected to Christ, knowing the Savior from the scriptures. But also, he talked a lot about the temple in that talk, and how the temple can bring great peace in our lives, and here we are in a time of turmoil, the world that we live in now, and here is President Nelson at every conference rattling off 20 more temples that are going to be built.

  00:13:32 I think a great metaphor that I think about, it’s you think of Ukraine. Here’s a temple that hasn’t even shut down in a war zone with missiles flying over the top of it being completely protected with members still going in there and doing ordinances in a war. Incredible contrast that we have today.

Hank Smith: 00:13:50 You bring up the Ukraine temple. That made me think of the Manhattan temple. You both may remember way back in 2006, Elder David Stone gave a talk called Zion in the Midst of Babylon. He talks about building the Manhattan temple. He says, “My involvement with building the Manhattan temple gave me the opportunity to be in the temple quite often. It was wonderful to sit in the celestial room, and be there in perfect silence without a single sound to be heard coming from the busy New York streets outside.”

  00:14:21 How is it possible that the temple could be so reverently silent with the hustle and bustle of the metropolis just a few yards away? The answer was in the construction of the temple. The temple was built within the walls of an existing building, and the inner walls of the temple were connected to the outer walls, and this is, I think, an important piece only at a very few junction points. That is how the temple, Zion, limited the effects of Babylon or the world outside, and he talks about there could be a lesson here. If we want to create Zion or maybe peace within ourselves, within our families, we can limit the extent to which Babylon will influence our lives.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:15:06 Hank, what a great story. What you just said reminded me so much of back to that talk that Elder Cook is referring to about personal peace in our lives, but he said, “Temples are where many of these sacred ordinances occur and are also a source of peaceful refuge from the world, and those who visit temple grounds or participate in temple open houses also feel this peace. One experience preeminent in my mind is the Suva Fiji temple open house and dedication. There had been political upheaval resulting in rebels burning and looting down Suva, occupying the house as a parliament, and holding legislators hostage. The country was under martial law.

  00:15:44 The Fiji military gave the church limited permission to assemble people for the open house, and a very small group for the dedication. The members as a whole were uninvited due to the concerns for their safety. It was the only temple dedication since the original Nauvoo Temple that was held under very difficult circumstances. One person invited to the open house was a lovely Hindu woman of Indian descent, a member of parliament who was initially held hostage but was released because she was female. In the celestial room free from the turmoil of the world, she dissolved in tears as she expressed feelings of peace that overwhelmed her.

  00:16:23 She felt the Holy Ghost comforting and bearing witness of the sacred nature of the temple. Here, she is not even a member of the church, and feeling the powerful spirit that comes from being at the temple.

John Bytheway: 00:16:35 That reminds me of Elder Bednar’s recent talk where he said he went through an open house with reporters. I’m not reading it verbatim. I’m remembering, but he told them, “No one will speak when we’re in the celestial room,” and one of the reporters afterwards said, “I’ve never felt such…” What was the words he used? Perfect stillness in my life. “I did not know such stillness was possible.” So, that’s one of the things I love about being in the temple. He can’t even hear the outside world. It just seems far away when you’re in there.

Hank Smith: 00:17:04 Mark, an experience comes to mind. I think both of you know that I had a 90-day period in my life where a lot of people passed away. I lost my brother, then a close friend of mine, and then my dad all within 90 days. Of course, I was shaken and sad and grieving. Out of those three, my father was the last to pass away, and my nephew, who’s my brother’s son, he came to me, and he said, “How are you doing this?” I said, “How am I doing what?” He said, “You’re okay. How are you okay?” He said, “I am not okay.” He’s an atheist. Good guy.

  00:17:42 I said, “But you and I, we see this differently.” It was interesting for us standing there, both standing there in the hospital. It was maybe one of those times where there was a stark contrast where I went, “Wow, what I do know makes a significant difference in the peace I feel.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:18:00 That’s so good. Thanks, Hank, for sharing that. Let’s go to verses six and seven for a minute. I wonder in the context that we’re talking in, trying to root this back into the remember book of Mormon one through nine, how this may fit, but Mormon’s going to give us a little treatment here of this idea of doing things for the right reasons. We’re going to talk about motives just for a minute. In fact, if we looked at one of the cross references for footnote 6D, it says sincere motivations. Verse six, “For behold, God has said a man being evil cannot do that which is good, and if he offereth a gift or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent, it profiteth him nothing.”

  00:18:44 In other words, when we do things for the wrong reasons, if our intents aren’t pure, then it’s almost as if we didn’t do it in the first place. Verse eight, “Behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly wherefore it is counted unto him as the same.” It says as if he retained the gift, or we would say as if he never gave the gift in the first place. If we pray, see verse nine, without real intent, it’s as if we didn’t pray. It doesn’t profit us anything. A man being evil in verse 10 cannot do that which is good. Neither will he give a good gift.

  00:19:17 We talk about motive, why we do what we do, in Moroni 7, 8, and 9. I’ve thought about that a lot. Why do we do some of the things that we do? We know that a lot of times, we do things out of guilt. I know that I do in my life. I’ll do things out of guilt or fear. Sometimes we want fame. Sometimes it’s going to benefit us in some way to be seen of men for advancement, for rank, for status, for wealth, for promotion, but there’s a lot of other reasons too that are good. We do things because we love people. We want to help them. We do things because we love God.

  00:19:52 I’ve heard people say, “I do this because I love the church. I want to help.” You may remember that one of the very first talks that President Dallin H. Oaks gave in General Conference was this idea on why we serve. Do you guys remember that? 1984, he talked about every range. It was the October ’84 conference. He was called in April. I don’t know how long he spoke in that conference in April of 1984. You may remember that story, but he was out of town when they called him. President Oaks couldn’t get to the conference until Sunday, and he was called there. I don’t know if his talk was that long. This may be his first major talk in conference.

  00:20:30 His range was everything from, “We serve others for hopes of worldly honors and prominence and power to obtain good companionship. Some of us serve out of punishment, some out of duty and loyalty.” By the way, for those who do serve out of duty and loyalty, he did say that that’s what the honorable men and women of the world do. That’s not a bad thing, but then he talked about the highest reason for service. It’s because we love God. We love His children, and we want to help build the kingdom. Once again, I’m sure all three of us in our experiences in the church and in other places have been aware that not everyone serves for the right reasons all the time.

  00:21:11 I think what Mormon’s asking us here is let’s get our hearts right. Let’s get our hearts pure, and let’s make sure we’re doing things for the right reasons. Otherwise, we lose the Spirit a little bit in our lives, and we become frustrated and sometimes bitter a little bit when we’re serving and helping.

Hank Smith: 00:21:27 Do you remember Elder Renlund? He caught me by surprise with this sentence, “Our Heavenly Father’s goal in parenting is not to have his children do what is right.” I thought, “Wait, what?”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:21:40 Wait, where are we going here?

Hank Smith: 00:21:42 Then he said, “It is to have his children choose to do what is right, and ultimately become like Him. If he simply wanted us to be obedient, He would use immediate rewards and punishment to influence our behaviors.” Do you remember what he said next? “God is not interested in His children just becoming trained and obedient pets who will not chew on his slippers in the celestial living room. God wants His children to grow up spiritually and join him in the family business.” You’re right on here, Mark. It’s, “I don’t just do what is right. I want what is right.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:22:17 Not a huge rant, but just one that I think is a great clarifier, in verse 12, that everything that is good comes from God. Everything that’s good comes from God, and that which is evil comes of the devil, because the devil is an enemy to God, and fights against Him continually. I share that with you all because in our eternal family class at BYU, we talk about the plan of salvation, and as you guys know, when it comes to the pre-earth life, the grand council in heaven, there’s always some things that are taught in our culture, not in our doctrine, but just in our culture that we’re like, “Okay, that can’t be right.” One of them, maybe you guys were taught this before as well. I know I was. Satan was going to force us to be good.

  00:22:59 He was going to force us to do good. I’ve always wondered where that comes from because I’m like, “Really?” Because why would the most malicious evil being in the universe want anyone to be good, and here in Moroni 7:12, it clarifies, “No, he doesn’t want us to be good. He fights against goodness. He’s the enemy to God, and fights against Him continually.” Well, here’s another key word. Now, we use this word continually in verse 12, that Satan is fighting continually, but look in verse 13, but also God who invites and enticeth to do good also, that’s continually.

  00:23:36 I think of the verse in Alma 50:1, “It came to pass that Moroni did not stop making preparations for war.” Here, they are in a time of peace, but we are not going to stop making preparations for war. We are not stopping. We are going to be continuous. We’re going to continually work at this. Here’s President Nelson. The adversary is quadrupling his efforts to disrupt testimonies, and impede the work of the Lord. He is arming his minions with potent weapons to keep us from partaking of the joy and the love of the Lord. So, I always like to think, “Okay, if Satan is quadrupling his efforts to destroy us, we have to at least quadruple that back in goodness continually if we’re going to match that,” but of course, we want to do more than match it.

  00:24:21 In order to stay out of his grip and his grasp and his influence, it’s going to have to be more than quadruple. We’ve got to multiply that exceedingly so to speak. We need more goodness in this world today from us as members of the church.

John Bytheway: 00:24:35 First of all, I love the word that Mormon uses here, “Inviteth and enticeth,” there’s not a force. Then verse 13, “God inviteth and enticeth.” King Benjamin uses that word as well. The natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit. As President Benson once said, “God votes for us, the devil against us, but we cast the deciding vote.” Which enticements will I give into? The enticements are there from the Holy Ghost and from the devil. Which enticements will I choose to follow?

  00:25:21 That idea about Satan forcing us to be good probably comes from the Pearl of Great Price phrase of, “He sought to destroy the agency of man.” What was he really trying to do then? I would love it if we could explain that better.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:25:41 If we go to the Bible Dictionary, and look up war in heaven, one of the things that tells us… I think this is one of those hidden gems that some of our leaders have taught over the years and maybe we’ve missed it, but what Satan really wanted to do wasn’t to force us to do good. What he was going to do is promise universal salvation for everyone, universal salvation. Now, I don’t get in line in the pre-earth life. If someone’s going to force me to do good, I’m being facetious, but many will get in line for free salvation.

  00:26:12 John, I wonder with that question about agency, I wonder if that’s part of it is, “Yeah, we were going to get free salvation, and we were going to have to do whatever the requirements were for that.” Not sure what they were, but we weren’t going to have a choice at this point. Satan was not going to allow us to have any choice. This is how it was going to be.

John Bytheway: 00:26:30 There was no choice. It wasn’t trying to force righteousness. It was just that there would be no… Like Elder Renlund said, “He doesn’t just want us to be good. He wants us to choose to be good.” Satan didn’t want to give a choice. Heard… Who was it that said Satan’s plan wasn’t a plan, it was a plot, because it wouldn’t have worked?

Hank Smith: 00:26:49 Everybody say… You don’t get to choose if you want to be saved.

John Bytheway: 00:26:52 Which fits the Pearl of Great Price statement.

Hank Smith: 00:26:54 You have no experience. You have no growth. I can shove you into this, and it actually is not going to work. It’s going to be a fake salvation.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:27:02 From the Bible Dictionary, the war in heaven refers to the conflict that took place in the pre-mortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner. The plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involve such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer? The war broke out because one third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the father’s plan of redemption.

  00:27:35 It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation. Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who pass through mortality without regard to individual preference, agency or dedication. I think that answers it. John, at least I hope it does.

John Bytheway: 00:27:55 How does salvation work if there’s no striving for righteousness, if there’s no opportunity to strive even?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:28:05 No opportunity for choice.

John Bytheway: 00:28:07 There’s no power to act. A lot of people think agency means freedom, but it really means power to act. You have power to act stupidly too, I guess. Mark, that is so helpful. I hear parents sometimes protest, “Oh, I can’t force. That’s Satan’s plan to be good,” but what you just read from the Bible dictionary was no, Satan was proposing some sort of universal salvation without agency that would not have worked anyway, right? That’s a different thing. It never sat right. This idea that Satan was trying to force us to do good, because that doesn’t sound like him. What you just shared with us in Moroni seven was, “He inviteth and enticeth to sin continually.”

  00:28:49 It reminds me the necessity of agency and of opposition in all things. Reminds me of something. Do you remember, Hank, when we had Daniel Peterson on the program?”

Hank Smith: 00:28:58 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:28:59 He’s, I think, we would probably say the church’s expert on Islam. He speaks Arabic, and was educated in Egypt. I had a couple of cassette tapes from him years ago. Hank, anciently, I used to listen to something called cassette tapes. There was a two cassette tape set called Understanding Islam, and he talked about in some areas of Islam, I guess, the most conservative. The young people are not allowed to mix the sexes, so they don’t have dances together. They don’t date. Somebody picks their spouse for them.

  00:29:28 He had a paragraph in there which I never forgot. He just said, “If you allow the young people to mix, some immorality may result, but there’s another thing that might happen, freely chosen virtue, which is a very good thing.” He said, “It’s one thing to choose the right when you have no other options, and another thing to choose the right when you could very easily choose the wrong,” forcing salvation, that doesn’t allow for the opposition in all things where you freely choose virtue.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:30:03 Yeah, I think it goes very well with Elder Renlund’s statement back to he wants us to choose.

John Bytheway: 00:30:08 Not just to do what is right but to choose to do what is right.

Hank Smith: 00:30:12 John, Mark, I’m really interested in this discussion. Here’s just an idea. Maybe this is Hank chapter one, and that’s fine. I’m picturing the premortal life. Satan wants to destroy the agency of man. That’s Moses chapter four. I wonder, why would anyone follow that? What if we hear something like this from the adversary? As our Heavenly Father presents His plan, you hear this, “That’s your plan. You’re God. You’re the omniscient God. Really? Really, that’s what you came up with. I can come up with something better.”

  00:30:48 “You’re going to send these people down. You’re going to risk them. They’re going to have to sin, and then Jesus is going to have to suffer. Really? You couldn’t come up with a better plan than that.” To me, that is, “I can do better than you. I can do something you couldn’t come up with.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:31:09 Yeah, I can see it. I can hear it.

Hank Smith: 00:31:14 Mark, thanks for putting up with our little tangent there. What do you want to do next?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:31:18 Great thought. I think we go right to the heart of the batting order here. In the middle of this chapter, we’ve got the whole treatment of verses 15 to 20-ish on judging in the light of Christ. Once again, we try to remember that in that context of Mormon giving us a message, he just came out of this situation where the people completely lost the Spirit. The Spirit is gone. He’s going to tell us that you have to have the light of Christ first, the light of Christ, by the way, given to all men and women on the earth. President Oaks is saying that, given to every man and woman to know good from evil.

  00:31:54 We talk now about judging for a minute, which is really interesting in the context of the world that we live in today. We hear a lot of people telling us, “We’re not supposed to judge. Don’t judge. To be judgmental is wrong.” That’s not scriptural. Already in this chapter in verse four of Moroni seven, Mormon’s like, “Okay, I’m going to make a judgment here. I’m going to judge.” We know that in Matthew seven, there’s a verse that’s interpreted in verse one. We always say this, “Judge not that you be not judged.” Well, that’s not the right, as we know, the translation.

  00:32:25 Joseph Smith changed it, and it’s big, “Judge not unrighteously that you be not judged, but judge righteous judgment,” but we have to make judgments every day between good and evil, right and wrong. Our President Oaks would say between good, better and best. I mean, this is what our life looks like, so we better judge, but of course, we want to do it righteously, and that’s what happens in these verses now is that we are taught how to judge in a righteous way.

John Bytheway: 00:32:53 Moroni 7:16, “For behold, the spirit of Christ is given to every man that he may know good from evil. Wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge, for everything which inviteth to do good and to persuade to believe in Christ is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ. Wherefore, ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”

Hank Smith: 00:33:16 “But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil and believe not in Christ and deny him and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil, for after this manner doth the devil work. He persuadeth no man to do good. No, not one, neither do his angels, neither do they who subject themselves unto him.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:33:37 “And now, my brethren, seeing that you know the light by which ye may judge which light is the light of Christ, see that you do not judge wrongfully, for with that same judgment which ye judge, ye shall also be judged.” So, there’s that Matthew seven part. So, let’s go back to verse 16 for a minute. The way to judge is that anything that invites us to do good, and persuades us to believe in Christ, it’s from him. It’s from God. This is a great way for parents with teenagers today. What about movies? What about the things that we read, the things that we watch, social media, the friends that we hang out with?

  00:34:09 If they are going to help draw us to Christ, that’s a good thing, but in verse 17, “If it persuades us to not believe in Christ and to deny him and to serve not God, which means to serve not others, then it’s not of God. It’s of the devil,” and the devil persuades no man to do good. No, not one. There’s that idea of he’s not going to force us to do good. He just doesn’t do that. This idea of letting this light, this light that all of us have, I mean, we can build on that, and talk about the role that the Holy Ghost plays in our lives to make decisions, but that light of Christ is given to every human on the earth.

  00:34:44 When someone tells us, “I didn’t know you weren’t supposed to kill somebody,” okay, well, if you have the light of Christ, which you do, you know that that’s not right. We had to seek diligently in verse 19 for that light. Seek for that light. Seek for the Savior. Lay hold upon every good thing, and then we will always be standing on holy ground. In verse 19, “So search diligently for the light of Christ. Search diligently. Strive to lay hold upon every good thing, and then we stand on holy ground.”

John Bytheway: 00:35:16 What I love about this is it sounds like sometimes people like to wonder or speculate if there are gray areas. I love that in verse 15, he says, “You may know with a perfect knowledge as daylight is from the dark night.” I don’t know. What do you guys think about that? Are there gray areas? That was the end of Moroni 7:15 where he says, I’m going to tell you a way that you can say there, it sounds like he’s saying, “I’m going to tell you a way to judge so that you won’t be thinking there are gray areas.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:35:50 He does make it very polarizing, right? It’s daylight or dark. It’s one or the other.

Hank Smith: 00:35:55 Mark, would it be fair to say that maybe a movie or a television show or a website, a child, a teenager might say, “Well, that doesn’t do either. It doesn’t take me to Christ. It doesn’t persuade me to do evil,” but maybe we could add, “If this thing takes you towards the principles that Christ taught, honesty, goodness, mercy, if that thing is taking you that direction, then it is still taking you, persuading you to believe in Christ and the things He taught.” Would that be fair?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:36:29 I think so, and I think there’s this other part of it too that helps us to know about the light of Christ. In our case, we would say, “Okay, what is the Spirit? What is the Holy Ghost pointing you towards here? What is the Spirit teaching you?” So yeah, Hank, I think that’s right. Any virtue like that that you just mentioned are of God.

Hank Smith: 00:36:48 C.S. Lewis says, “When you find someone who says there’s no such thing as right or wrong, you’ll find the same person going back on that in three seconds.” All you have to do is break a promise you made to them, and they’ll say, “That’s not right.” So-

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:37:06 That’s great.

Hank Smith: 00:37:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:37:09 Today, anything that sounds judgy people, “Oh, that’s kind of judgy.” Isn’t it remarkable that someone who is a former Utah state supreme court judge was called to be an apostle? He’s now in the first presidency. He gave a talk at BYU Speech called Judge Not and Judging. Just the opening paragraph was such a blessing to me. He said, “As a student of the scriptures and as a former judge, I have had special interest in the many scriptures that refer to judging. The best known of these is judge not that ye be not judged. I have been puzzled that some scriptures command us not to judge, and others instruct us that we should judge and even tell us how to do it.”

  00:37:52 I’m convinced that these seemingly contradictory directions are consistent when we view them with the perspective of eternity. The key is to understand that there are two kinds of judging, final judgments, which we are forbidden to make, and intermediate judgments, which we are directed to make, but upon righteous principles. The idea of final judgments and then intermediate judgments, I think a final judgment, someone says, “Oh, if I’m not in your church, does that mean I’m going to you know?” I’m like, “Well, that’s not mine. I don’t know your past, your life, your trials.” I am relieved of that.

  00:38:34 I don’t have to make a judgment about that, but intermediate judgments that we all have to make, “Who should I marry? Who should I hire to babysit my kids?” Well, we probably should make a judgment when we’re thinking of something like that, and make a good one. That was a blessing to me. Have Elder Oaks put them in final judgments, we’re forbidden to make. Intermediate judgments, we make based on these gospel principles, which I think Mormon is explaining right here.

Hank Smith: 00:39:01 Yeah, I love what you said there, John. If you go to 3 Nephi 14, similar to the Sermon on the Mount that we did with Brother Wilcox, Jesus says, “Judge not that you be not judged,” but then go down to verse six, and it says, “Don’t cast your pearls before swine.”

John Bytheway: 00:39:18 Which is going to require a judgment.

Hank Smith: 00:39:20 A judgment.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:39:22 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:39:23 Obviously, he didn’t mean never judge at all, but I think you’re right there, John. It’s not my place to make final judgments. Mark, I’d like to know more about what Mormon calls the spirit of Christ in verse 16 and that comes up again, the light of Christ. We talked about judgment, and here, Mormon is saying, “Use this spirit of Christ that every man has been given, this light of Christ.” How would you explain that to a student or a teenager?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:39:50 I think I would share with them a statement from back to President Oaks again that the light of Christ, which is sometimes called the spirit of Christ or the spirit of God, giveth light to every man that cometh into the world. Quoting section 84 verse 4, “This is the light which is in all things which giveth life to all things.” He quotes Lorenzo Snow who said that everybody has the spirit of God. The light of Christ enlightens and gives understanding to all men. He says, “Now in contrast, manifestations of the Holy Ghost are more focused.” I won’t get into that yet, but he comes back and says once again that this light of Christ is given to everyone so that they can know good from evil.

  00:40:33 In our day, and I’m thinking that maybe in the last few decades or whatever it seems like, we’ve had it explained to us by Sunday school teachers, seminary teachers and others, that the light of Christ is our conscience. We’ve heard that expression before that it’s our conscience, but I’m not qualified to say, “Yeah, that’s exactly what it is,” but there is a light within all of us. What a great gift. We’re all going to be resurrected, and we all have the light of Christ. It’s a great gift that our Heavenly Father has given to all of us to navigate our way through this world. Everyone has the ability to determine if something is right or wrong. That’s how I see it.

Hank Smith: 00:41:11 I love that. I occasionally will get asked by a student or one of my children, “What about other religions? We are right, and they’re wrong?” This verse really can help with that. Did you know… Back in 1978, there was a first presidency statement that I love. I don’t even know why it was issued, Mark. Maybe you do. I don’t know. February 15th, 1978, here’s what it says among other things, “The great religious leaders of the world such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the reformers as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations, and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

  00:42:00 I’m not in charge, but if I ever was, I might make this the 14th article of faith. We believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation. That’s beautiful. The way we would see other religions is filled with the light of Christ, with the spirit of Christ.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:42:23 One of the things I would add Hank to that is I joined the church when I’m 18 years old, just in time to go on a mission a year later. But before that, we kind-of bounce around and our family to a lot of different churches, not super involved, but I can tell you honestly that growing up, I knew I had this awareness of what was right and what was wrong. I mean, there was no question about that. I can even say I felt inspired. The Holy Ghost wasn’t my constant companion, but I felt inspired to do good things on occasion, and help people and to say nice things to people. Then I also made some dumb choices too, like we all do, but that was the light of Christ giving me that direction in those days.

Hank Smith: 00:43:05 Mark, anything else on that? How have you helped your children recognize that light of Christ, or how can we help others see that in their own lives?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:43:17 I don’t know if I could say light of Christ, but I certainly could say the Spirit, the Holy Ghost. I remember one time, our oldest daughter came home from church on a Sunday. We had dinner together. We always liked to talk to our kids about what they were learning in church, and one of our daughters said, “Well, I guess I don’t have a testimony.” We said, “Wait, why?” I mean, she was really sharp. I knew she knew. Now, I don’t have a testimony. How come? “Because in young women’s today, the young women’s leaders, all three or four of them, and every girl was crying except for me. I was the only one who wasn’t crying,” and that was it.

  00:43:52 She said, “So, I guess I don’t know anything.” I said, “No. Brittany, come on. Let’s talk about some of the different ways that the Holy Ghost can work.” Throughout our life with our children, we would try to take those opportunities to teach them about Doctrine and Covenants Section 8:2. I’ll tell you in your mind and in your heart and other references throughout the scriptures, that helps them to know that there are a myriad of ways. I think that’s what I would want our children to know today and our grandchildren is, “Look, guys, there are a myriad of ways the Spirit can speak to you, and for every one of us, it could be really different.”

  00:44:24 Our quest really is to just learn how that works for us. That’s what we have to do. Then as parents, I think we could try to do a great job of identifying the spirit, and helping them understand, “Okay, that was the Holy Ghost.” When you had that thought come into your mind, or when you had this feeling, that was the Spirit guiding you.

Hank Smith: 00:44:43 Doctrine & Covenants 11, 12, 13, I can always remember it. Section 11:12 and 13, “Put your trust in that Spirit, which leadeth to do good, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously. This is my Spirit.”

John Bytheway: 00:45:01 Yeah, there’s different ways that you can know something is true, and Jesus said, “You’ll know them by their fruits.” Sariah suddenly sees the boys coming over the hill with the plates of brass, and says, “Now, I know, my husband hath been commanded to leave.” I like that the Doctrine of Covenants in about four different places says, “I will enlighten thy mind, so I’ll tell you in your mind.” That discussion is a great one to have. What are some of the different ways that we learn?

  00:45:28 I guess going back to this light of Christ, there’s something that impels us to do good. Mark, you mentioned you were a convert. I’ve often thought about my dad at age 24 is when he joined, but he was literally dragged to church meetings on an aircraft carrier World War II. I’ve wondered if it’s like a ladder where the light of Christ testifies that there’s more, that there’s something good here, and then you can feel the Holy Ghost, and then you can actually receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hank Smith: 00:45:57 I like that, John, kind of a gradual strengthening.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:46:02 The escalation, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:46:03 Then Jesus says, “I’m going to take you back to the Father, and I’m going to be your advocate.”

Hank Smith: 00:46:08 Sounds like line upon line.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:46:10 I think that’s exactly right. That explains it perfectly.

Hank Smith: 00:46:15 Mark, what do you think of this word persuade? It just stood out to me. The Spirit of Christ, and we would say the light of Christ, The Holy Ghost, even the gift of the Holy Ghost will persuade to believe in Christ. John used impelled but never forced. Never, “I’m in your face. You have to do this.”

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:46:35 It’s really interesting how gentle the words are that Christ uses. One of my turnoffs is in the church, when we say use the word challenge, we’re going to challenge you to read the Book of Mormon. Oh, the Bishop’s challenge, they’re going to read the book. Christ never challenged anyone. He invited. The idea of persuading is soft, right? It’s gentle. It’s persuade versus clubbing someone over the head. I think it’s a wonderful word where the Spirit works on us, and there’s this gentle persuasion.

Hank Smith: 00:47:05 There’s a sense of agency, which we’ve talked about today already, which I want you to choose this. I want you to use your agency to choose this. So, Mark, we’ve been at this a while, and we’ve gone through an entire 18 verses.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:47:20 No one knows. This is like our fourth day on this, right, guys?

Hank Smith: 00:47:22 Yeah. We’ve cut out the whole second day.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:47:25 Without food or drink.

Hank Smith: 00:47:28 We just spent that on verse one.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:47:30 All right. There’s a lot of internal validity that I’d love to recognize in this chapter that you see, once again, that pops up back in Mormon chapters one through nine. We also see the beginnings in verses 20 to 26 of this idea of faith. We’re going to talk about faith, hope and charity here in a minute. We’re leading up to that, but here we see the beginnings of faith. In verse 26, we have this idea that whatsoever thing you shall ask the Father in my name, which is good…” By the way, that’s a qualifier, “which is good in faith, believing that you shall receive, behold it shall be done unto you.”

  00:48:11 Now, this is building on what John said early on is that you have Mormon talking in Moroni, and you have Moroni talking in the book of Mormon. Here we are in Mormon nine for just a minute. This is really a cross reference. There’s some great truths embedded here on what’s being taught in these verses in 20 to 26, this idea that in Mormon 9:18, “And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.” In verse 19, “If there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles, and yet be an unchangeable being? And behold I say unto you, he changeth not. If so, he would cease to be God, and he ceaseth not to be God and is a God of miracles.”

  00:49:02 The reason why, verse 20, he ceases to do miracles among the children of men is because they dwindle in unbelief. They depart from the right way, and they know not the God in whom they should trust.” Now, all that leads to verse 21. “Behold, I say unto you that whoso believeth in Christ, doubting nothing, this is a formula, whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ, it shall be granted unto him, and this promise is unto all, even unto the ends of the earth.” You talk about the relationship between Mormon and Moroni. Obviously, these are some of Mormon’s teachings that Moroni is talking about or vice versa. They’re probably teaching each other to some degree, but this idea that whatever we ask the Father in the name of Christ, it will be granted to us.

  00:49:51 Now in our verse here in Moroni 7:26, it says, “Which is good,” which is really interesting because in 3 Nephi 18:20, back to this idea of internal validity, it says the exact same thing, the whatsoever thing you should ask the father in my name, which is good. It doesn’t say which is good. It says which is right. In other words, we can’t just ask for anything. It has to be good, and it has to be right, but the Lord’s going to grant that to us if we’re on the right path, if there’s purpose to it. Miracles are wrought today. In the next verses 27 through 39, we’re going to talk about angels and miracles. Those are the very same things that are being taught in Mormon chapter nine.

  00:50:33 This father and son are swapping out and talking a lot about some of the very same things. There must’ve been a lot of father-son talk around the campfire about some of these right principles here. 30 and 31, we’re learning what an angel does. Before I read that, I want to share something that you guys may remember. You may not. It was 1994. Elder Holland spoke to all the Seminary & Institute teachers in the church in the Marriott Center, and he said this, “I am convinced that one of the profound themes of the Book of Mormon, one which may not yet have been developed enough in our teaching of young people, is the role and prevalence and central participation of angels in the everlasting gospel story.”

  00:51:19 That this idea of angels is a real theme. He’s telling us in the Book of Mormon, and we learn in verses 30 and 31 the purpose of angels. Verse 31, the office of their ministry is number one to call us to repentance, number two, to fulfill and do the work of the covenants of the Father, which he’s made to the children of men, number three, to prepare the way among the children of men by declaring the word of Christ to the chosen vessels of the Lord to bear testimony of him. It talks more about that, but we can’t talk enough about angels in the church. It’s one of the most underrated doctrines, I think. I know that in our own family, we have seven sons-in-law in our family. Two of them were almost killed in an accident a month ago.

  00:52:03 There’s no possible way they should have lived. Then another son-in-law yesterday jumped out of an airplane in a parachute in some military training, and landed on top of someone else’s parachute, and ends up landing on his back and cracks his helmet in half. When I texted Jake this morning, I said, “Jake, in our family, we believe in angels. We have seen so many miracles happen in our life that we know that angels are real.” He wrote back and said, “I know.” He goes, “There’s no way I should have lived.” To testify of angels to our family and the role that angels play, I think, is something that we probably could do more of because it’s certainly, as Elder Holland said, one of the great themes in the Book of Mormon that we often miss this theme of angels.

John Bytheway: 00:52:45 I think angels is a fascinating topic. Donald W. Parry, one of our friends, wrote a book called Angels back in 2013. It was so good, and it just makes you think. What’s the verse that says many have entertained angels unaware? I like what you’ve done with this. The office of their ministry is, and it sounds like, “We want a job description of angels.” Here it is. Here it is. Moroni 7:31, This is what angels do, and they can be on both sides of the veil.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:53:14 One of the things I think of is Elder McConkie’s great teaching that there are five types of angels. He said, “There’s pre-existent spirits. There’s translated beings. There’s spirits of just men made perfect, meaning the spirit world waiting the resurrection. There’s resurrected beings.” But then he says, “Righteous mortal men and women can be angels, right?” When you think that angels bear good tidings, angels do the Lord’s work, angels bless. They help and they serve. You just think of all the angels around us in our wards, in our stakes, in our communities.

  00:53:47 Once again, when you put it in that context of Moroni chapter 7, because we know that charity’s coming up here pretty soon, I think part of the idea is we should pray and seek for angels, but we should be angels to those around us. We want to be angels. The three of us know so well that there are angels among us. No question about that. We won’t sing the song yet, but there are angels among us, and we get to work and rub shoulders with those great people every day. They’re blessing our lives.

Hank Smith: 00:54:17 It reminds me of our executive producer and our founder, Shannon and Steve Sorensen. They love that song Angels Among Us.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:54:27 When 36 to 38, we’ve learned in verse 37 that miracles are wrought by faith, that angels minister to us by faith. Start this right part of the sermon now on faith, hope and charity, and faith has been discussed and talked about a little bit. We’re going to get into hope. Maybe hope is the one that’s a little bit underrated. These are all attributes of the Savior. By the way, they’re all gifts. Did you notice that, John? By the way, they are all gifts.

John Bytheway: 00:54:57 I caught it. It went through, but I caught it.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:55:00 Yes. They’re all gifts that we can pray for. We can pray for the gift of faith. We can pray for hope, and we can certainly pray for charity, but I love this idea of hope, and maybe I can read verse 40, “And again, my beloved brethren, I always speak unto you concerning hope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith? Save ye shall have hope.” What is it that you shall hope? In verse 41, “I say unto you that you shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection to be raised up unto eternal life, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.”

  00:55:35 Now, there’s been a lot said about hope. Elder Holland spoke very specifically though about this verse. He said, “Hope is much more than wishful thinking. It is to have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of His resurrection to be raised unto eternal life, and this because of your faith in Him according to the promise,” he’s quoting verse 41, “that is the theological meaning of hope in the faith, hope, charity sequence with an eye to the meaning.” Moroni 7:42 then clearly reads, “If a man have faith in Christ and His atonement, he must needs as a consequence, have hope in the promise of the resurrection, because the two are linked together in such a powerful way. For without faith in the Atonement,” these are just words Elder Holland’s adding. “There cannot be any hope in the resurrection.”

  00:56:25 He’s tying those key doctrines together, but I would like to spread hope out a little bit wider, expand it because of course, hope is in eternal life, and the resurrection, there’s great hope in that. The resurrection in my mind is the greatest theological doctrine that we have. It’s incredible, but hope is also faith. It’s also optimism. It’s expecting things to happen. In other words, we can have hope in a lot of things, not just eternal life. We could have hope, great hope in this life. One of the things I’ve learned is I’ve studied the lives and teachings of our apostles and prophets is that they are all so hopeful.

  00:57:02 You guys have noticed that. They’re so optimistic. There is no such thing as a pessimistic apostle. Elder Ballard said, “I speak of hope in Christ, not as wishful thinking, but in expectations that will be realized.” We think of all the promises that have been made to us in blessings and in other parts of our life, and I think hope is this belief in the promises that have been made to us, and believing what President Monson said that the future can be as bright as our faith. There’s a lot to hope, I think.

John Bytheway: 00:57:32 I want to ask you a question, Mark. Have you ever had someone say, “I’m afraid I have forfeited the blessings of my patriarchal blessing, because I have messed up?” What’s a good answer for that to give people hope?

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:57:46 John, I’m going to answer that in a personal experience I just recently had at the stake level, where this person told us that was the very thing that they said after this council concluded was, “I am afraid that I have forfeited everything that my patriarchal blessing has promised.” Now, what I’m about to tell you is I’m going to give you my opinion. I’m not saying this is doctrine, but in my mind, I told this person. I said in my mind, “Heavenly Father, he’s an omniscient God. He knows everything from the end, from the beginning. He knew that this was going to happen to you. He knew that you were going to step in these places, but guess what? He still promised those things when that patriarch laid his hands on your head when you were 16 years old, the Lord knows everything.”

  00:58:29 “Don’t feel like those promises are negated just because you made a bad choice and a bad decision. Hold on to hope. Trust in the Lord’s promises to you. Live faithfully and live righteously. If those promises don’t happen in this life, then they’re sure to come in the next. Heavenly Father promised you those things, knowing what would happen to you at this little stage of your life where you’ve had some mess ups.” We want people to have hope. We want to encourage people. We always… For any priesthood leader out there listening, we don’t want anyone to ever leave our office without feeling hopeful, without feeling lifted and happy and encouraged and believing.

Hank Smith: 00:59:09 Mark, I’ve shared this a couple of times on the podcast. What you said made me think of it is the raising of Lazarus. It’s been too long. He’s been gone too long. The Lord can’t do anything at this point. You’re right on there. When someone says, “Oh, I’ve been gone too long. I’ve forfeited the blessings,” just watch the Savior opens that tomb, and calls you out.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 00:59:32 He opens that door. I love that. How about this idea? We’ve talked about the trifecta, faith, hope, and charity. This is just my opinion, but it’s really mind-blowing to me that we don’t count the concept and the doctrine of meekness in verse 44 as one of the keys to the faith, hope, charity, or in other words, faith, hope, meekness, and charity. Look at what it says in verse 44, “None is acceptable before God save the meek and lowly in heart, and if a man be meek and lowly in heart and confess by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity.”

  01:00:11 We talked about stair stepping a minute ago, but it feels like charity is preceded by this idea of meekness. We’re not acceptable before God. We can’t qualify for the celestial kingdom if we’re not meek. Meekness now gets the award of the year for the most underrated Christlike attribute that’s almost forgotten over and over again. If it’s okay with you all, I’d love to share something from Elder Bednar’s talk that he gave on meekness. It’s kind of fun for us at BYU, because often, these apostles and other leaders will come and give a talk at BYU, and then you’ll hear them talk about the same thing in General Conference six months later or a year later, because you know it’s been on their mind.

  01:00:50 But Elder Bednar said that meekness is not weak, timid, or passive. Meekness is the quality of being God-fearing, righteous, teachable, patient and suffering, and willing to follow gospel teachings. A meek person is not easily provoked or irritated, pretentious, arrogant or overbearing. Whereas humility generally denotes acknowledging dependence upon God, and receptivity to counsel and correction, a distinguishing characteristic of meekness is a willingness, a particular willingness to learn both from the Holy Ghost and from other people who may seem to be less experienced or capable, who may not hold a prominent position or otherwise may not appear to have much to contribute.

  01:01:34 Maybe right now, you guys as church religious educators, your mind’s being triggered a little bit, and thinking of all those stories we’ve heard President Eyring tell about his dad, who’s this world-renowned physicist traveling the world, and then stopping at the gas station, and talking to the gas station attendant for 20 minutes, because he’s trying to learn about tire pressure and carburetors and things like that. There’s President Eyring in the back seat, at age 16, totally embarrassed that his dad’s talking to this guy for so long, and then his dad gets in the car and says, “Look, I can learn something from everyone.” That’s part of what this idea of meekness says.

  01:02:09 I think of being coachable and teachable, able to accept correction. If you guys are okay with this, from that talk, Elder Bednar tells two fascinating stories, but maybe we just have time today for one.

Hank Smith: 01:02:22 Stories are the best. Our listeners love stories.

Dr. Mark Ogletree: 01:02:26 I worked extensively with President Eyring during the transformation of Ricks College from a two-year junior college to the university known today as BYU Idaho. At the time, he was a member of the 12 and the commissioner of church education. Elder Eyring visited the Rexburg campus to assess the progress of the transition. I shared with him a status report on student enrollment projections, physical facilities, renovations, construction projects, hiring of new employees and many other topics. We devoted considerable time to reviewing the financial resources and timeline necessary for the success of this transition.

  01:03:02 During our time together, it became apparent that Elder Eyring and I had differing interpretations of the total resource package that had been approved by the Church Board of Education for the transition. Now, that’s a great thing right there to bring up is here’s two men, one, a future apostle in Elder Bednar, and one, an apostle in Elder Eyring that don’t quite agree on this issue. We’ve worked together to come to a common understanding, but were not successful. I then indicated my willingness to do whatever the brethren directed, but I also explain that fewer resources would necessitate the transition plan and timeline to being scaled back accordingly. We ended our workday together without achieving a final resolution.

  01:03:43 Elder Eyring spent the night in our home, and when he came into the kitchen for breakfast the next morning, his first statement was, “President, I was rebuked by the Holy Ghost last night.” He then indicated that the transition should continue going forward as outlined the previous day, and that he had no ongoing concerns about the resources. Then he said to me something I’ve never forgotten, “President, if you have not been rebuked lately by the Holy Ghost as you are praying, then you need to improve your prayers.” Given this extensive experience in institutions of higher education, his position as a member of the 12, and his authority as the commissioner of church education, he simply could have decided, “This is the way it’s going to be,” but he didn’t do that.

  01:04:25 Elder Eyring learned of and from the Savior. He listened to his words that came by the power of the Holy Ghost, and then walked in the meekness of the Lord’s Spirit. I learned a valuable lesson about meekness through this experience with Elder Eyring. Such meekness is essential, well, for inspiring and experiential learning. The other one is from President Oaks, which is just interesting as here are two men that Elder Bednar is highlighting as apostles and members now of the first presidency. In one of our quorum meetings, Elder Oaks expressed a strong opinion about a course of action that he believed should be pursued. The reasons he articulated were convincing, and his knowledge about the issue was extensive.

  01:05:03 His arguments in favor of the action were compelling, but as we counseled together, a less senior member of the 12 expressed agreement with the basic course of action, but registered a reservation about the proposed timing. Now, Elder Oaks could have countered the concern with a response like, “I believe I know a lot more about this matter than you do,” but he didn’t. With no hint of defensiveness or indignation, Elder Oaks asked that his quorum member, “Would you please help me understand your reservation about the timing?” After listening intently to his apostolic associate, Elder Oaks pondered for a moment, and then said, “The point made by Elder Blank is valid. I had not considered the timing implications of this action, and the way he has, and I am persuaded that the proposal should be reworked based on what we have learned in this discussion.”

  01:05:54 Now, here’s Elder Bednar. Elder Oaks learned of and from the Savior, he listened to his words that came through the voice of a fellow quorum member, and then he walked in the meekness of the Lord’s Spirit. I learned valuable lessons about meekness through this experience. It’s so good. In fact, I believe one of the common denominators of our leaders, there’s a lot of great men and women in the church, but my own personal opinion is that these leaders who serve us as general authorities, as prophets, seers, and revelators, they have in common the attribute of meekness. It’s so evident in the things that we read about them.

  01:06:28 Now, in a marriage and family situation, we can be meek. We can be coachable. We can be teachable. We can say, “Lord, is it I?” I mean, that’s always the greatest thing we can ask in any type of conflict is, “Lord, is it I?”