Hank Smith: 00:04 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name’s Hank Smith, I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host, John Bytheway, and I describe us as John, tight, like unto a ditch. John, as the kids would say, you and I are tight.

John Bytheway: 00:20 We’re tight.

Hank Smith: 00:21 We are looking at the book of Ether again, as we did last week. When you think of Ether 6, this middle chunk, because you have the brother of Jared in the beginning, you have Ether himself at the end, but in this middle area it gets a little blurry for a lot of Latter-day Saints, so what are you thinking of?

John Bytheway: 00:40 Yeah, when we start with Ether 6, we’ve got this journey, and there’s so many journeys throughout these awesome stories in the scriptures, in modern stories like the pioneers and what they learn. But boy, you’re right Hank, as soon as they get there, oh boy did they start having some ups and downs. It goes back and forth and it’s really fun to see that and then try to draw from it. What do I get from this? That’s what I’m looking forward to today.

Hank Smith: 01:06 John. I can see why King Mosiah, when he translated this, thought, “We need to get rid of kings, we need to change away from kings.” Because you’re right, things go up and down. John, we have a special guest with us, as we do every week, this is Dr. BJ Allen. BJ, as you’ve looked at these chapters, what are you seeing? Where are we going to go?

Dr. BJ Allen: 01:27 In this week’s A Come, Follow Me, we get a real inside scoop into the rise and fall of the Jaredite Nation. There’s so much here, so this is about 2000, 3000 years of history we get in the chapters that we’re going to follow. I think it’s important that we remember, Moroni is not giving a historical account here, it’s a spiritual story. He picks and chooses some critical themes. The first one is the critical role of prophets, and this is a theme throughout the whole Book of Mormon, but especially Ether. We can actually see why this is such an important theme by actually going to the end of the story. Let’s go to Ether 11 and let’s go to verse 13. It says, “And it came to pass that the people hardened their hearts and would not hearken unto their words, and the prophets mourned and withdrew from among the people.”

  02:23 The people get so wicked and they stop listening, so the prophets eventually leave, and then we get this story of the Apostasy in verse 21 and 22, “And the Lord God would send or bring forth another people to possess the land by which his power after the manner by which he brought their fathers, and they did reject all the words of the prophets because of their secret society and wicked abominations.”

Hank Smith: 02:50 I don’t want to ruin it for anyone who hasn’t read it yet, but the Jaredite nation, it doesn’t work out well, they all get wiped out, and here’s why, because they reject the prophets.

Dr. BJ Allen: 02:59 The second big theme we’re going to talk about is how beautiful life can be when God is in it, and God blesses us when we follow him, especially as we talk about the Brother of Jared’s story, how Christ enables and allows mortals to do wonderful things when we invite Christ into our life. Christ compensates for our weaknesses and difficulties even in difficult times. Along with that, despite the difficulties that we go through in wicked times, we can still live Christ-centered life, so we’re going to talk about who some of those people are. And then on the flip side, we’re going to talk about how miserable life is when you try and live a life without God, and the Jaredites are a great example of some of the terrible things that happens to you when you try and live a life of greed, and lust, and desire for power, it leads away and makes us miserable.

Hank Smith: 03:56 Wickedness never was happiness. I love it, I’m excited for this BJ. I’ve noticed that Moroni as an author is I think attempting to do what his father did, which is abridge a history and draw out principles, but you can tell they’re different, you can tell these are two different people. So I’m excited to watch how Moroni does this and maybe think of how did Mormon do it and how does Moroni do it differently? John, BJ is new to our show, so I think he needs a John Bytheway introduction.

John Bytheway: 04:30 Yep, hotly printed off my laser printer. Dr. BJ Allen, he’s an associate professor of marketing at Brigham Young University, he received a bachelor’s degree from BYU and a PhD in Business Administration from the University of Texas San Antonio, and his research areas are in marketing strategy, professional selling, and new product innovation. He’s the author of two textbooks and gives sales and marketing training to corporations. I wanted people to know he’s an author of a new book called The Compensating Power of Christ, I’ve got mine right here, which is about how the Savior makes right the unfairness of life and compensates for our personal weaknesses. He lives in Provo, he and his wife Angie have six children. He’s a sports enthusiast, most weekends you’ll find him driving his family around in his awesome minivan, I remember those days. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Allen, welcome.

Dr. BJ Allen: 05:28 Yes, thank you. I’m super excited to be here. I’m actually really excited to talk about these chapters in Ether because I have a fun family connection, if I can share for a second to these chapters. There’s a man in early church history, his name’s Reynolds Cahoon. Reynolds is actually my fifth great-grandpa. Those of you may not be familiar, Reynolds is one of Joseph’s earliest friends during the Restoration and he’s a mission companion to Samuel Smith and he gave Joseph Smith some paper to finish the translation of the Book of Mormon. He had a son, so Reynolds had a son, and he asked Joseph to come bless and name the baby and Joseph named the baby Mahonri Moriancumer. This is what it says in church history, “When he, being Joseph, had finished the blessing, he laid the child on the bed and turning to Elder Cahoon said, ‘The name which I’ve given your son is the name of the brother of Jared. The Lord has just shown it to me.'” We have a Mahonri Moriancumer Cahoon in the family, I grew up all the time learning about him and my family history, so it’s really fun to be talking about the real Mahonri Moriancumer today.

Hank Smith: 06:35 That’s fantastic.

John Bytheway: 06:37 I don’t know why, but nobody ever asked him to give a blessing again. I’m just kidding. I don’t really know if that’s true, I don’t think it is. His name is what, could you spell that out for me?

Hank Smith: 06:48 There was another couple there and they turned around and walked out with their baby. No thanks, we’ll go somewhere else.

John Bytheway: 06:57 Hey, Hyrum, do you want to bless this?

Hank Smith: 07:00 That’s funny. BJ, I am going to read from the Come, Follow Me manual and then this is John and I’s favorite part, we turn the reins over to you and we get to learn. It says, “Hundreds of years after the Jaredites were destroyed, the Nephites discovered the ruins of an ancient civilization. Among these ruins was a mysterious record, plates of pure gold that were filled with engravings, and the Nephites were desirous beyond measure to read it. Today you have an abridgment of this record and it’s called the Book of Ether. When the Nephites read it, they were filled with sorrow to learn of the tragic fall of the Jaredites. Nevertheless, it gave them much knowledge in which they did rejoice. This is all from Book of Mosiah. You too may find sorrowful moments in this book, but you can also rejoice in this gift of knowledge. As Moroni wrote, “It is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that evil may be done away and that the time may come that Satan may have no power over the hearts of the children of men.” Man, these summaries are powerful, so BJ, with that, John and I are ready to learn.

Dr. BJ Allen: 08:02 All right, let’s give the viewer some background and some context to what’s happened before this chapter. In Chapter six, we’re coming back to the Brother of Jared’s story, after there’s a couple of chapter breaks where Moroni inserts his teachings. We’ll actually see that this is a theme in both Moroni and Mormon’s writings, where they stop writing for a little bit and they give us a little bit of an insertion of gospel principles, and I like to think that those principles were sparked by something that they wrote in that story. With that, when I read the Book of Mormon chapters, I like to have a lens by which I’m trying to interpret the story, and one of the lenses I love is to ask myself “What gospel subjects did Mormon or Moroni teach after this story?” What are some maybe things that sparked their interest or gospel principles that they thought about?” In other words, along with asking what can I get out of it, I like asking what did Moroni get out of it?

Hank Smith: 09:05 That’s great. It’s those thus we see moments. Maybe there’s more than that because they don’t just say, thus we see. I like what you’re saying here, that when we pause and Moroni says, “Can I say something?” It’s probably from what he just read.

Dr. BJ Allen: 09:18 Yeah, exactly. What gospel principles did Moroni learn from the story? For example, Ether 4 and 5, we get an insertion from Moroni about the coming of Christ, faith, repentance, the three witnesses, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, but then we would read Ether 1-3 with that lens. What we’re going to do, at least here at the beginning of Ether, we’re going to read beginning of Ether and then we’ll continue on these sort of 6-11. We’re going to look at it through the lens of what Moroni talks about in Ether 12. Ether 12 is Moroni’s doctrinal commentary where we learn about faith, and hope, and charity, and then we get the beautiful verse in Ether 12:27 about how his grace is sufficient for our weaknesses.

  10:06 Let’s keep that lens in mind, faith, hope, charity and how his grace is sufficient. Let’s start here in Ether 6, we’re going to go verses 2-3, “And it came to pass after the Lord had prepared the stones, which the brother of Jared had carried up into the mount. The brother of Jared came down out of the mount and he put the stones into the vessels which were prepared, one each end thereof, and behold, they did give light unto the vessels. And thus the Lord caused stones to shine in darkness, to give light unto men, women, and children that they might not cross the great waters in darkness.” Right off the bat here in Ether 6, we have this beautiful illustration of Christ’s power. To me, this is such a salient example of what Moroni teaches in Ether 12:27, which reads, “My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me. For if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, then will I make weak things strong unto them.”

  11:11 This story, we get of brother of Jared, he’s trying to figure out how he’s going to fill these boats with light. Christ compensates for the weaknesses of the brother of Jared and makes his efforts sufficient. It’s the brother of Jared’s idea, but God does all the work. God’s the one that touches the stones. He’s the one that makes them shine. The brother of Jared did the best he could, but he’s weak, just like all of us, we’re not sufficient on our own. And this is even the way that the brother Jared approaches the situation in Ether 3, where he says, “Hey, don’t be angry with your servant because of my weaknesses, this is the best I could do. Can you touch these stones and can you make them light?”

Hank Smith: 11:57 Here’s my idea, please light it up.

Dr. BJ Allen: 11:59 Yes, exactly. Here’s my idea, this is the best I could do, will you please make my efforts sufficient? This is of the very core of what the Atonement is meant to do. It’s almost as if Moroni is trying to point this out in verse three because he says, “The Lord caused the stones to shine in darkness.” It wasn’t the brother of Jared, it wasn’t anyone else, it was the Lord. The brother of Jared comes to the Lord with his weaknesses, but Christ is the one who makes his efforts sufficient. It’s such a beautiful example of the way that Christ can compensate us in our life. I think it’s worth pointing out here in the story that at least we never see a point in which God’s mad at the brother of Jared for not knowing how to give light. He doesn’t say, “Really, this is the best you could do? In a few thousand years, they’re actually going to invent electricity, this really isn’t that hard.”

  12:54 Jesus is not a reluctant Messiah here. He’s not looking for ways to be angry at the brother of Jared, he’s not looking to say, “Oh, really? This isn’t really that great of idea, I’m going to do most of the work.” He understands the brother of Jared is doing the best that he can. There’s been this quote from Richard G. Scott that I’ve always loved where he said, “The Lord sees weaknesses different than he does rebellion, whereas the Lord warns that unrepentant rebellion will bring punishment. When the Lord speaks of weakness, it is always with mercy.”

  13:32 Our weaknesses become an opportunity to use the grace of Christ. I love the similarity between Ether 12:27 and in 2 Corinthians where Paul says, speaking of Christ, “My grace is sufficient for thee, my strength is made perfect in weakness.” For me, this used to be a really hard principle to understand because me personally, I used to struggle with self-doubt, I used to feel like my own weaknesses made me unfit for God’s grace. Maybe if I reached some level of goodness, then God can come into my life. And this principle has been a lot easier for me to adopt as I’ve had kids. I think of the C. S. Lewis quote that God is easy to please but hard to satisfy. I love my kids, they have a long ways to go to reach their potential, but I appreciate all that they do and I appreciate all that they are. I understand that sometimes their efforts aren’t what I’d want them to be, but they’re doing their best. He’s always compensating us to make our efforts sufficient for the miracles that we seek now. I think that’s such a cool story to start off with in light of that lens of, well, what does Moroni pull from the story and what does he teach after?

Hank Smith: 14:44 That’s fantastic. John, help me out here. Joseph Smith said, “You can’t properly worship God until you know who he is.”

John Bytheway: 14:52 The kind of being he is.

Hank Smith: 14:54 Yeah, and we get a glimpse of that in the story of the brother of Jared, that like BJ said, he’s kind. He’s not looking for ways to hurt me, he’s looking for ways to help me.

John Bytheway: 15:05 We need that reminder constantly. I love that the first vision verified there is a God, but that was just the beginning. What kind of being is he? Oh, then these things start to come out. And we have to be reminded of it because sometimes, like you said BJ, oh, maybe he’s mad at me of my weakness. I just loved Elder Kearon’s talk about the motorcycle cop that was turning people away. And how he said, “God’s plan is not a plan to keep you out, it’s a plan to bring you home.” One more reminder, what is God really like? Is he delighting to punish and turn us away? Of course not. When I see those, I think, yeah, we need that reminder over and over. It’s easy to get the wrong idea about what kind of being God is, and the more we have a right idea, like you said, Hank, the more faith and hope we can have in him.

Dr. BJ Allen: 15:58 And it changes our viewpoint to focus less on ourselves and more on the Savior. We stop worrying about everything we’re not and start thinking about what the Savior can make us. For example, I once counseled a missionary who was in the field and was trying to decide if he should come home. The root of it was that he didn’t feel good enough. All of the talk from mission leaders about what a missionary should be just told him that, “Well, I don’t measure up.” As I talked to him, it became evident that he was so focused on everything he wasn’t, he had lost focus on who Christ was. I counseled him that God’s not angry with you that you’re not a perfect missionary and stop worrying about everything that you’re not and start focusing on what Christ can make you. He called you here, his grace is sufficient for you, and he’s going to make you who you need to be as you turn to him.

  16:53 Similarly, when I counsel people who are going through a faith crisis and they talk about their doubts, it’s almost as if they feel like because they have doubts, they don’t really believe like, oh, I used to believe, but now I’m starting to question this, and if there is a God, he must be mad at me because I don’t even know if he’s there or not. I think it’s the opposite. Doubts are not a result of weak faith, they’re a result of growing faith. The role of Jesus Christ is to help us to become better. It’s like the brother of Jared, I mean if you read the story, he comes to the Lord and he says, “Look, I know I’m weak, but this is the best I can do. Can you touch these stones and make them glow?” God does that. This was a quote from President Nelson a few conferences ago, he said, “He, being Jesus, took upon himself your weaknesses. He paid the compensatory price and provided the power for you to move every mountain you will ever face.” That price has been paid and Jesus wants to help you, he wants to light your stones. Even if that’s the best idea you can come up with, he wants to help you.

John Bytheway: 18:05 BJ, when you were talking about take your focus off your own weakness and put it on Christ, you know what it reminded me of is we sometimes call it the Psalm of Nephi in 2 Nephi 4 “O, wretched man that I am.” But then his focus, “But I know in whom I have trusted. My God has been my support and he have helped me through the wilderness and he has protected me upon the sea…” And all of that, and you see how when his focus is on Christ, it’s like you said, that’s where he gained some more faith and confidence, and that is the first principle of the gospel, isn’t it, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Dr. BJ Allen: 18:42 That’s a beautiful example, John.

Hank Smith: 18:44 John, we’ve talked about this before, but I’ll say it again. There’s a reason that repentance is the second principle of the gospel and there’s a reason the Lord said, “I want you to take the sacrament every week.”

John Bytheway: 18:54 Every week.

Hank Smith: 18:56 I can see me saying, “I don’t think I’ll need it every week. I think I’m going to be pretty solid, maybe four times a year.” And he turns around with, “No, let’s do this every week.” It’s a difficult thing to teach BJ, but the Lord has this expectation that in your growing you’re going to make mistakes, that’s why the second principle of the gospel is repentance and we come back to the sacrament.

Dr. BJ Allen: 19:17 Beautiful. I want to take maybe a slightly different view on this story with regards to Christ compensating us because I also think it’s a beautiful reminder of how Christ helps us offer light to others. I want you to imagine being the brother of Jared and trying to figure out how you’re going to light everybody’s boats. He feels responsible, right? He’s the one that’s talking to God, he’s the one that’s making the boats, at least the one in charge. When he goes to God in the beginning of Ether and asks him for help, you can tell He’s not saying, “Hey, I don’t want to go in darkness.” He’s saying, “We don’t.” Like what can we do? I’m responsible for giving them light, but my abilities aren’t that great.

  20:04 We can liken this to all of us who are trying to offer light to others. Whether that is a parent or a church leader, it’s like we may not feel like our efforts are enough. I can’t give these youth, I can’t give these ward members, I can’t give my children the light that they deserve. And that’s okay, here in the story we learn that Christ compensates the efforts of the brother of Jared to make his efforts enough to help them, but when I’ve read this story, it reminded me of the story of feeding the 5,000. When Jesus is teaching the people and it becomes dark and the apostles say, “Hey, we should send these people home.” What does Jesus say? He says, “Well, let’s feed them.” Now, surely Jesus could have just made food out of nowhere, but he asked them, “Well, what do you have?” And they find a boy who has five loaves and two fishes, and then Christ makes that enough. When you read the story in the New Testament about that, you can tell the apostles, they’re really scared almost of we don’t have enough to give to these people and I can’t do that.

Hank Smith: 21:17 “What are they among so many?” I think it says,

Dr. BJ Allen: 21:19 Yes.

Hank Smith: 21:20 Compared to what I need, what I have is not going to cover it.

Dr. BJ Allen: 21:24 Don’t we feel like that way sometimes as parents or as leaders, I can’t give my kids what they deserve, I can’t feed them sufficiently? And what we learn from these stories is he doesn’t just magnify our own abilities, but he compensates by making our efforts sufficient. This is such a salient example of Ether 12:27. He’s making our weaknesses into strengths. I think this is true for parents, but particularly young moms that I talk to who struggle with, how do I teach my kids? How do I do Come, Follow Me? Am I giving them what they need? I like to read 2 Nephi 3:21, “The weakness of their words will I make strong in their faith.” You may feel like you’re not a great gospel teacher, but the Lord will compensate what you can’t do. And we can liken this to anyone with a stewardship who’s trying to offer light to others like the brother of Jared. As you turn to Christ, he will make your efforts enough.

Hank Smith: 22:23 That’s awesome. He can turn your two loaves and fish into a banquet, bring what you have, hand it over and say, “Touch it. Touch it, make it work.” I’ve done that so many times as a teacher, prepared a lesson and thought, “This is awful. Light it up. Make it work, please touch it, please have something happen.” And so often it does, it goes somewhere and my students say, “That was amazing.” Usually and I think, “It wasn’t when I got here, it was not that amazing.”

John Bytheway: 22:52 Is it Newel Whitney who is called to be a bishop? He said, “I don’t think I have a bishop in me.” There’s that same story. Bring what you have, I will multiply it. A lot of times with callings, that’s a good way to look at it. Yeah, maybe you don’t, but with Christ, He can make it more. I was going to say too, this verse could have been written so matter of fact, “The Lord caused stones to light in the barges.” But instead, “… Stones to shine.” He didn’t even have to say in darkness, it makes sense without in darkness. The Lord caused stones to shine to give light. No, but to shine in darkness, and when I think about a world that’s increasingly dark, but this is going to shine in darkness, and then how beautiful to let us know, he’s not talking about the ocean trip here, “… To give light unto men, women and children that they might not cross the great waters in darkness.” I mean it sounds like this is more than telling us about a journey, there’s another level here.

Dr. BJ Allen: 23:49 Absolutely, and actually we’re going to come back to that verse and talk about how it represents the Savior in just a little bit. John, I love what you said, it’s such a beautiful illustration of trying to get us to understand Christ is here to give light to everybody.

Hank Smith: 24:07 Well, BJ, I really appreciate that concept, brother of Jared is not just thinking, “I need light.” There’s some pressure of, “I need to provide light, I need to provide some light. I am the bishop, I’m the gospel doctrine teacher, I’m the relief society president and I’m supposed to offer some light. I need you, I can’t do this, I don’t have the skillset, I’m not a light maker.”

Dr. BJ Allen: 24:28 Exactly, and we learn from the story that Jesus makes your efforts sufficient no matter who you are. To take this even a step further, as a parent, so I have six kids, sometimes I wonder, would my kids be better off if Elder Holland was their dad? Probably. He could probably teach them better than I could or President Nelson was their dad. I’m the bishop of my ward, wonder, do they deserve a better bishop? And the answer to all those questions is yes, they deserve someone better than me. I’m doing the best I can and I just have to rely on the Savior to make my efforts enough because that’s what his role is. We’re going to go to Ether 6:4-6, and again, we’re going to read these through the lens of what gospel principles does Moroni pull from the story?

  25:17 When we get the interjection in Ether 12, Moroni teaches about faith and hope. Let’s look at these verses in terms of faith and hope. Then in verse four, the Jaredites, they go unto the waters and it says, “Commending themselves unto the Lord their God, and it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blown up on the face of the waters toward the promised land. And thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind and it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea because of the mountain waves which broke upon them and also the great and terrible tempest which were caused by the fierceness of the winds.”

John Bytheway: 26:01 It’s almost like thanks a lot.

Dr. BJ Allen: 26:03 Exactly right. They commend themselves unto the Lord’s, and commends means to entrust to someone. So they entrust themselves to the Lord and then what do they get in return?

John Bytheway: 26:15 A storm.

Dr. BJ Allen: 26:16 Yes, a big storm. Furious winds tossed, buried, great and terrible. tempest. Does that seem like positive? If that was me, I would’ve been, “Lord, I just prayed that you would take care of us and now I’m in this giant storm, this doesn’t seem like an answer to my prayer.”

John Bytheway: 26:36 What thanks do I get for commending myself to you?

Dr. BJ Allen: 26:41 Exactly. Think about it, it must have been a really hard journey. It was about a year that they were in the water, and for a year you’re in this giant barge that’s your bedroom, your kitchen, your bathroom. You’re in there with all your siblings and they’re poking you and pulling your hair. You have no idea where you are, you have no control, you have no sail, you have no motor. I have a large family, we travel to the coast of California to go to the beach, it’s about 12 hours, and by the time we’re there, everyone’s about to kill each other. And we got air conditioning and we get to stop at Wendy’s when we’re hungry. This is what the people ask the Lord, is take care of us, and then they get terrible winds, they’re buried, and there’s eight different boats.

  27:33 They don’t even know where each other are, they don’t know if you’re safe, if they’re okay, but when we read Moroni later, he talks about it in positive terms and actually says that the people did praise the Lord. The reason they were grateful, at least in hindsight, was because they learned that those tumultuous experiences they had were actually what took them to the promised land. Maybe that’s how they felt at first, maybe that’s only how they felt in hindsight. Christ blessed them, he compensated the difficult things in their life to make them great. I can’t help but think of Lehi’s teachings in second Nephi that he will consecrate our afflictions for our gain, is they were blessed through the difficult experience and it was actually those very things that helped them accomplish their goal of taking them to the promised land.

John Bytheway: 28:29 There was a sister in my ward, in fact, she was a wonderful relief society president, Sister Marsh, and she gave this talk once called Cursed for Thy sake. Showed that what you think was a trial, this furious wind, was actually what was getting you there. Sister Ardeth Kapp, I found this quotation, she said, “Note that the furious wind never did cease to blow towards the promised land.” And that’s what it says in verse eight. “They were driven forth before the wind toward their goal. Once they understood the purpose for the wind and knowing that their vessels were tight,” which they made very clear when they designed them, we read further, “They did sing praises unto the Lord.” Which is what you said, BJ, I like that idea. This is scary, this furious wind, but this is taking us where we need to go and we got to trust that God is taking us where we need to go.

Hank Smith: 29:25 Such a powerful principle. All of us could give example after example, after example of something that seemed like a trial, seemed to any of us like this is going to tear me apart, and then as we get through it, we look back and think, if it weren’t for that thing, this and this and this would not have happened.

John Bytheway: 29:43 Hank, I’ve heard you give that talk before. What is it called?

Hank Smith: 29:48 Trial, Blessing, or Both?

John Bytheway: 29:50 Trial, Blessing, or Both. Now, you talked about President Uchtdorf, right?

Hank Smith: 29:54 I have it right here, John.

John Bytheway: 29:56 He couldn’t learn German, tell that because I love that story, and I love aviation, and I love Elder Uchtdorf, so tell the story.

Hank Smith: 30:03 This is back in 2006, which is hard to say back in 2006, that doesn’t seem that long ago to me. He says, “Allow me to share with you an experience from my boyhood. When I was 11 years old, my family had to leave East Germany and begin a new life in West Germany. Until my father could get into his original profession as a government employee. My parents operated a laundry business in our little town.” Right John, so they go from this middle-class family, they become refugees, I don’t think they can speak the language, he’s talked about going from Russian to English and how difficult that was for him. He said, “I became the laundry delivery boy. To be able to do that effectively, I needed a bicycle to pull the heavy laundry cart. I always dreamed of owning this nice, sleek, shiny, sporty red bicycle, but there was never enough money. What I got was a heavy, ugly, black workhorse of a bicycle. I delivered laundry on that bike before and after school for a few years.”

  31:00 I like how he says this, he never says he hates the job, he says, “Most of the time I was not overly excited about the bike, the cart or my job.” This is the important part of the story. “Sometimes the cart seemed so heavy and the work so tiring. I thought my lungs would burst. I often had to stop and catch my breath. Nevertheless, I did my part. We desperately needed the income.” John, you probably know the source on this, he doesn’t say it here in this talk, but when he would take that bike around, he would occasionally stop at the airfield, watch the Americans and the British flying their planes in and out. This is what he says later, “If only I had known back then what I learned many years later. When I was about to be drafted into the military, I decided to volunteer instead and join the Air Force to become a pilot. I loved flying and thought being a pilot would be my thing.” I think he got into that, John, I’m not quite sure, but I think it became part of-

John Bytheway: 32:01 He’s mentioned that.

Hank Smith: 32:02 Yeah, he’s mentioned that just a few times in conference. He said, “To be accepted for the program, I had to pass a number of tests including a strict physical exam. The doctors were concerned by the results and did some tests. They announced, ‘You have scars on your lungs, which were an indication of lung disease you had in your teenage years, but obviously you’re fine now.’ The doctors wondered what kind of treatment had I gone through to heal this disease. Until that day of the examination, I had never known that I had any kind of lung disease. Then it became clear to me that it was the bike. My regular exercise in fresh air as a laundry boy had been the factor in healing from this illness. Without the extra effort of pedaling that bicycle day in and day out, pulling the laundry cart up and down the streets of our town,” He says, “I never would’ve gone on to become a pilot, 747 Air captain…” on and on.

  32:59 And then he says this, “We don’t always know the details of our future.” BJ, you’ve brought this up. Here comes this storm, I commend myself to God and what do I get? I get this storm. Now later in a different talk a couple of years later, listen to what he says and how he probably learned what he says here back when he had that experience, this is April of 2010. “Often the deep valleys of our present will be understood only by looking back on them from the mountains of our future experience. Often we can’t see the Lord’s hand in our lives until long after the trial has passed. Often the most difficult times of our lives are essential building blocks that form the foundation of our character and pave the way to future opportunity, understanding and happiness.” Thanks for letting me take that time, BJ and John because this to me is a principle that comes up over and over. Joseph of Egypt. All these terrible things happen, but they take him somewhere.

Dr. BJ Allen: 34:01 When we get some insight into how the Jaredites felt about this, if we go to verse 12, it tells us how they felt when they landed. It says, “And they did land upon the shore of the promised land, and when they had set their feet upon the shores of the promised land, they bowed themselves down upon the face of the land and did humble themselves before the Lord and did shed tears of joy before the Lord because of the multitude of his tender mercies over them.” They saw it as a tender mercy, and I love how both of you pointed out different ways in which the terrible tempest of our lives allow us to grow and help us become closer to God. This is similar to what Elder Holland called the prison temple, which I think he adopted from B.H. Roberts and Elder Maxwell as well.

  34:50 The idea of prison temple comes from the Liberty jail when Joseph Smith was in a terrible prison but had some beautiful revelatory experiences and we get some of the most beautiful Doctrine and Covenant sections. Elder Holland gave a BYU devotional called Lessons from Liberty Jail, and he points out how those terrible experiences can often turn out to be sacred experiences. He said, “You can have sacred revelatory, profoundly instructive experience with the Lord in the most miserable experiences of your life in the worst settings while enduring the most painful injustices when facing the most insurmountable odds and opposition you’ve ever faced.” Listen to that language. You can go through painful things and they can turn out to be really special. If you don’t mind, I want to share a personal experience I had with this. You mentioned at the beginning of my bio I have a PhD in Business Administration from UT San Antonio.

  35:50 Towards the end of my PhD program, I had a really bad bout with mental health. I was dealing with really bad anxiety, even some depression. Every day was a struggle, hard to get up, it was hard to keep going, it was hard to keep the faith. Then with a lot of help and blessings from my wife, I was able to move on and we moved out after I graduated and I got a job as a business professor. And then I got invited back to UT San Antonio to give a lecture. I was pretty nervous. I was nervous I would get hit with all those negative feelings I had felt. When I went back, actually the opposite happened. I went back to the house I had lived in and I remembered so many prayers I had offered and I went back to my office and remembered all of the dark days, but also the days where I felt God’s love. It became really special to me because one of the darkest times of my life became one of the most sacred. That’s what I remember when I went there, I remember thinking, “This is a sacred place, this is my prison temple, this is where I came to know God.”

  37:06 I love that here in Chapter 6, it points that out, it points out that the Jaredites realized that they were tender mercies, that they praised God for those experiences.

Hank Smith: 37:18 Wow, that’s very touching.

Dr. BJ Allen: 37:22 The only being who can teach you the exact way you need to be taught for your understanding is God. I learned this a few years ago when the church came out with a certain policy. Me personally, I didn’t understand it. The ward members who are listening are like, “Wait, Bishop even has questions?” The answer is yes. I’m not perfect and I didn’t understand it, but I wanted to. Rather than go read a bunch of stuff on the internet of what people are saying about it. I just remember I offered a really heartfelt prayer and said, “Lord, I don’t understand this, but I have faith in your prophets and in your church leaders, help me understand it.” And I studied it and I prayed and I did what the Doctrine and Covenants said, and I studied out in my mind. Something magical happened, it was like I was having a companionship study with the Holy Ghost. God taught me the exact way that Dr. BJ Allen needed to be taught to understand it. There was no one who could have taught me like that, at least to some degree, I think that’s what he means. In these times of wickedness, in these times of questions, you need the Spirit with you because the Spirit can teach you the exact you need to be taught.

Hank Smith: 38:37 There’s a parallel verse to the one we read, Ether 6:17 in Doctrine and Covenants 112:10. I bet both of you could quote it, “Be thou humble and the Lord thy God…”

John Bytheway: 38:49 “Shall lead thee by the hand. Give thee answers to thy prayers.”

Hank Smith: 38:54 “Walk humbly before the Lord and you’ll be taught from on high.”

Dr. BJ Allen: 38:58 I love that, that connection between that and that verse, that’s awesome. Before we move on to the end of Chapter 6 and then go on to Chapter 7, I want to point out one other thing. It’s worth noting here in Ether 6:7, we get this mention that the barges were tight like unto a dish like the Ark of Noah. I have a friend, a good friend who’s an atheist, when we talk about the Bible, one thing he often points out is these outrageous stories in the Bible. Adam and Eve partaking of the fruit, and Noah, and Moses. I love this little mention of the Ark of Noah because the Book of Mormon is a second witness of Bible stories. I think of 1 Nephi 13:40 where it points out that the Book of Mormon as it relates to the Bible has two purposes. It says, “Make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away,” because we know there’s some things over the years that were translated or taken away and the Book of Mormon restores those, and “Establish the truth of the first.”

  40:06 So here it mentions Noah, a book of scripture that’s on another side of the world, another set of prophets saying, “Hey, there really was a man named Noah and he really did build an Ark.” And when you think about what other Bible stories or characters, the Book of Mormon is a second witness of for the Bible. Adam and Eve, Moses, Joseph in Egypt, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the Tower of Babel, Christ, John the Baptist, Isaiah we could go on, is that sometimes some of the critiques that the Bible gets, the Book of Mormon is a second witness that those things actually did happen.

Hank Smith: 40:49 So what you’re saying is that a Bible-loving person would love the Book of Mormon?

Dr. BJ Allen: 40:56 Exactly. It’s a second witness of the stories that are in it.

John Bytheway: 41:00 Guys, why was six afraid of seven? Mormon, 7, 8, 9? That verse says says-

Dr. BJ Allen: 41:07 Oh, I love that.

John Bytheway: 41:07 What you just said, Mormon 7, 8, 9 says, “And this was written for the intent that you believe that. And if you believe that, you’ll believe this also.” And I love that there’s some pretty strong purpose statements of the Book of Mormon on the title page, and every once in a while you get another little secondary purpose thrown in there. “That you may learn to be more wise than we have been.” Is another favorite, but I love Mormon 7, 8, 9. This was written for the intent that you believe that, the Bible. And if you believe that, you’ll believe this also. Sorry for the dad joke, I caught you off guard.

Dr. BJ Allen: 41:51 I love it.

John Bytheway: 41:51 Why are you saying that right now?

Hank Smith: 41:51 Yeah. Listen, it’s always a good time for a John Bytheway dad joke.

Dr. BJ Allen: 41:55 I know.

Hank Smith: 41:55 Well, now you’ll remember, now you’ll remember it. Can I add something BJ? Frequently, oh, I don’t think the flood of Noah was scientifically possible or Jonah in the whale, really, is that scientifically possible? And then I usually follow up with do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus? “Oh yeah, of course.” Let’s talk about how scientifically possible that is. We’re not saying that every Bible story is an absolute literal thing, the literature itself is a genre in its own, you have to learn how to read it, but the idea that we would say, “Well, I don’t think the Ark of Noah existed, but I do believe in the resurrection of Jesus.” I just don’t think we understand the scope of what we mean when we say we believe in the Resurrection.

Dr. BJ Allen: 42:42 I love that, thanks Hank.

Hank Smith: 42:44 What should we do next?

Dr. BJ Allen: 42:45 As we wrap up Ether 6 and go into Ether 7, we are going to read the greatest spoiler of any book. Ether 6:22, Jared’s people want a king and they ask the brother of Jared and Jared to anoint a king, and then we get their answer in verse 23, “And now behold, this was grievous unto them and the brother of Jared said unto them, ‘Surely this thing leadeth into captivity.'” This is what we’re going to see through the rest of the Chapters for Come, Follow Me Ether 7-11, is this thing leadeth to the captivity.

Hank Smith: 43:23 And stop calling me Shirley.

John Bytheway: 43:25 Yeah, that’s the dad joke. If you weren’t going to say it, I was. And Mahonri said, “Hey, don’t call me Shirley.” No, we’re not having a king.

Dr. BJ Allen: 43:34 This is great. This is like I’m reliving my childhood listening to the John and Hank jokes from the tapes.

Hank Smith: 43:40 Oh, you get to be part of it now.

Dr. BJ Allen: 43:42 I love it.

Hank Smith: 43:42 It’s actually a nightmare.

John Bytheway: 43:44 “Surely, this leads to captivity.” “Hey, don’t call me surely. My name’s Mahonri. All right.

Dr. BJ Allen: 43:50 Now let’s go to Chapter 7 and the further Chapters, what we’re going to ask ourselves is what are we looking for? And remember, Moroni is not just giving a historical count, he’s given a spiritual story, but let’s talk a little bit about the high-level overview of the story in general. For the Jaredites, this covers about 2,500 to 3000 years. There’s 30 generations, there’s 30 to 40 different kings, and about a gajillion wars, civil wars, king overthrows, but one of the things I want to point out here is that the Book of Ether is a fantastic testament to Joseph Smith. Imagine that Joseph Smith really did make up the Book of Mormon, like our critics say, he writes in the earlier chapters about the Nephites and the Nephites have their culture, and their economics. And their monetary systems, and then Joseph Smith has the audacity to write a whole other book about a whole other group of people with their own culture, and the Jaredites are pre-law of Moses, so they have their own religious customs as well.

  45:04 It’s to me, a cool testament of Joseph Smith. Part of the cultural differences come from maybe the origins of where they came from. Hugh Nibley, who is really one of the pioneers in studying the link between the cultures of Middle East and Asia and the Book of Mormon, he points out that maybe some of the differences between the Nephites and the Jaredites were where they originated from. He suggests that the Nephites came around Africa and ended up on the east coast of America, and then a lot of experts think that the Jaredites started in Mesopotamia and made their way through Asia and then traveled around the world to the west coast of the Americas. Well, he points out that maybe some of the customs in the differences were that the Jaredites were influenced by the people of Asia. For example, we’re going to see this really weird custom among the Jaredites, which is they almost never kill kings. You overtake a king and what do you do? You let him live in captivity and he writes, and he lives a life, and he has kids. Again, I think a cool testament to the prophet Joseph Smith and that the Book of Mormon really is a translation of an ancient record.

Hank Smith: 46:12 BJ, we talked about this last week with Doctors Pierce, Pierce squared. If you go to Ether 1, Joseph Smith goes backwards from Ether all the way to Jared.

John Bytheway: 46:25 30 something generations, yeah.

Hank Smith: 46:27 Verse after verse after verse. This is where my kids go, “Really, can we just skip?” He does that in Chapter one, and then Chapters 2-15, he does the exact same list, but in reverse order.

John Bytheway: 46:39 How would you remember all of that.

Hank Smith: 46:40 All the way out. Unbelievable. He goes through and says, okay, now here’s the genealogy, now let’s go back through and tell the story of each. We don’t base our testimony off of these things, but it’s incredible to think about.

Dr. BJ Allen: 46:52 It is incredible. Yeah. Thank you for pointing that out.

John Bytheway: 46:55 BJ, one of the things that’s really fun to relate about this is the ancient origins of the game of chess and how you treat the king. You don’t kill the king in chess, you put him in check. Can I read something from Hugh Nibley because I thought this was so cool? He says, “These insane wars of the Jaredite chiefs ended in the complete annihilation of both sides with kings the last to go. This all seems improbable to us, but two circumstances peculiar to Asiatic, I think that’s Asia T-I-C, Asiatic warfare explained why the phenomenon is by no means without parallel. Since every war is strictly a personal contest between kings, the battle must continue until one of the kings falls or is taken, and yet things are so arranged that the king must be very last to fall, the whole army existing for the sole purpose of defending his person. This is clearly seen in the game of chess,” quoting Hugh Nibley, “in which all pieces are expendable except the king who can never be taken.”

  47:59 Then he quotes a scholar named M. E. Moghadam. “The Shah in chess is not killed and does not die. The game is terminated when the Shah is pressed into a position from which he cannot escape. This is in line with all good traditions of chess playing and back of it, the tradition of capturing the king in war rather than slaying him whenever that could be accomplished.” Now, back to Hugh Nibley, “You’ll recall the many instances in the book of Ether in which kings were kept in prison for many years but not killed. In the code of medieval chivalry taken over from Central Asia, the person of the king is sacred, all others must perish in his defense.” Isn’t that interesting that that would be in there? Because like you said, it sounds weird to us, that they don’t kill the king, they put him in check.

Dr. BJ Allen: 48:46 I like what Hank said. We don’t base our testimonies on these things, but it’s pretty cool still.

Hank Smith: 48:52 Yeah, it’s fun. It’s fun. Dr. Spencer would tell us, “It can’t be about the evidence, it has to be about the text.” So if he’s listening, Joe, we’re sorry, we just had to do that, just first.

Dr. BJ Allen: 49:05 As we go through Chapter seven, we’re going to see the Jaredites go through this cycle, and it’s similar to what President Benson calls The Pride Cycle. They’re wicked, the Lord sends prophets, the prophets are rejected, the people are punished, then they repent, then they’re righteous, and then the cycle starts over. When we’re looking through the stories of the Jaredites, I think it’s such a beautiful example not only that God offers blessings and punishments for keeping his commandments and not keeping them, but also that not keeping commandments brings terrible consequences in a natural way. It’s not that God won’t let you be happy when you are not obeying the commandments, it’s that life won’t let you be happy. God knows what will make you happy, God wants us to be happy and he gives us commandments to help us to be happy.

  49:57 As we read through the Jaredites, let’s remember that and let’s look for that what are some of the things that Jaredites do that make them unhappy, and let’s look at what led to their downfall and some of the parallels in our days, so that’s the way I want to approach Ether 7 and 8 and so on. What are some of the things that led to the downfall and what are their parallels in our days? Let’s go to Ether 7:20-21. There’s kings, and there’s wars, and there’s downfalls, and then we get this, it says, “And the country was divided and there were two kingdoms. The kingdom of Shule and the kingdom of Cohor, the son of Noah. And Cohor, the son of Noah, caused that his people should give battle unto Shule in which Shule did beat them and slay Cohor.”

  50:41 I want to focus on this phrase at the beginning, “The country was divided.” Because this is a theme throughout the Jaredites is that someone else wants to be king and they entice the kingdom to come to them, and there’s so much division and contention. I think about the talk by President Nelson, Peacemakers Needed. There’s a time where this is relevant. It’s to us because we see so much parallels between now and the days of the brother of Jared. This is the quote from President Nelson talk, Peacemakers Needed. “Vulgarity, fault-finding, and evil speaking of others are all too common. Too many pundits, politicians, entertainers and other influencers throw insults constantly. I am greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign and vilify anyone who does not agree with them.”

  51:40 Why does President Nelson feel so passionate about the division and the things that we see? And to show this, I want to share some stats that demonstrate how people like to vilify other people who don’t agree with them. This was a study 2002, the Pew Research, which is a very reputable market research company, they asked people of one political party what they thought of the people of the other political party. I’m not going to talk about what the political party said because I don’t want this to be political, but I think it illustrates how divided people are when someone disagrees with them. They ask people what party they belong to and then they ask them what they thought of the other party. They asked the people the degree to which they felt the other party was close-minded. What is the percent of people who said the other political party was a lot or somewhat close-minded? 83% for one and 69% for the other. They asked the same question with the degree to which you felt the other party was dishonest, 72% and 64%. And the degree to which you felt the other political party was immoral, 72% and 63%.

  52:54 This is people you don’t even know and it’s okay to not agree with other people, that’s what makes diversity, that’s what makes humanity great, but one of the things that’s so concerning is that all these numbers have substantially increased since their last study in 2016. Let’s take dishonest for example. In 2016, these percentages were 45% and 42%, and now they’re 72% and 63%. How do we remedy this? This example of try to vilify people who don’t believe the way that you think. President Nelson said this in that same talk, as disciples of Jesus Christ, we are to be examples of how to interact with others, especially when we have differences of opinion. One of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people. It’s okay, it’s okay to disagree. Again, that’s what makes diversity and that’s what makes us great, but it’s not okay to vilify people because they have a different opinion than you do.

  54:00 How do we get to the point where we treat people compassionately? At least to some degree, what President Nelson here is teaching is to see their viewpoint. Again, we don’t have to agree with them, but we fight division with compassion. I learned this lesson, this was a few years ago, I was helping a family who was on church welfare. They were a fantastic family going through some hard times, and I would meet with them occasionally to talk about their budget and what we needed to do to help. There was one particular meeting where I met with the husband. He got really angry, he didn’t understand why we needed to meet, and he felt I thought he was just accepting handouts and things that weren’t true, and as he’s talking and being mean to me, my anger inside me is boiling, and I’m like, “I’m here to help you and you’re getting mad at me.”

  54:52 I remember saying a prayer. I said, God, “I feel really angry right now, but I don’t want to feel this way, please help me.” And then in an instant, all of a sudden I saw this individual the way that God had saw him. He wasn’t trying to be angry, he was going through a really hard time. I saw how compassionately God saw him. In an instant, my whole attitude and emotions changed, and I told him, I said, “Hey, I’m sorry for anything I did that made you feel that way, and that’s not how I feel.” I apologized to him. And then you know what happened? His demeanor changed and the walls went down and he apologized to me, said, “Hey, I’m going through a really hard time. I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have said those things.” He was a great man and he became a good friend, a good person going through a bad day, and I learned from that experience that it’s okay when people don’t agree with you or sometimes that they say something mean to you, but we don’t fight division and contention with division contention, we fight division with compassion.

Hank Smith: 56:07 John, do you remember? I think Alma 60 and 61, that exchange between Captain Moroni and Pahoran is such a lesson. Moroni really, really gives it to Pahoran and Pahoran responds with, “I do not joy in your afflictions, it grieves my soul. In your epistle, you have censured me, but it mattereth not. I am not angry, I rejoice in the greatness of your heart.”

Dr. BJ Allen: 56:37 And how does Moroni react after that?

Hank Smith: 56:41 They unite.

Dr. BJ Allen: 56:42 Yeah. Moroni realizes, Hey, actually Pahoran he’s a friend and we’re going to do this together, I love that.

John Bytheway: 56:49 I was thinking of the sign of Samuel the Lamanite and how those people that were watching for the sign and it wasn’t given, okay, let’s set aside a day to put to death those who believed in the sign. What happened to, well, let’s just agree to disagree? How do they get to that point where, well, that didn’t happen, therefore we have to kill you? That’s a frightening end of what you’re talking about here, if we allow the way we see people to get harsher and more harsh and more polarizing until you don’t have a right to live because you believe this way. Whoa, how did that happen? I love you brought up Moroni and Pahoran because here’s a couple of guys that we love that are passionate, and Pahoran responds so beautifully. There was, at the beginning of the reign of the judges, some sort of no law against a man’s belief, but somehow when the secret combinations infiltrated, it became to where they could kill people for believing something. Pretty intense.

Hank Smith: 00:57:51 And one thing, B.J., that I thought of is, for me personally, this happened when Sister Dew came on. She said, “Who are you listening to and what do they want?” John, you could say it better than me. Who else would you listen to? Which talk show host? What influencer would you rather listen to than the prophet? And then she said, “Because all of those people want something from you.” I’ve learned myself to be careful around anyone who needs to keep me angry so they can continue their work. If I can fuel your anger, I can keep you coming back to my platform, or whatever it is. For me, I just have to be careful and watch out for that.

John Bytheway: 00:58:34 I can’t remember who our guest was that emphasized how many times it says, “They did stir them up to anger.” They had a desired outcome for that. It wasn’t good. Watch out for those who are trying to stir you up unto anger.

Dr. B.J. Allen: 00:58:49 Continuing on the same theme of what led to the Jaredites, the fall, we talked about how there was division and contention, and then we get another indication here in Ether 7:23 and also the reign of Shule. “There came many prophets among the people who were sent from the Lord prophesying that the wickedness and idolatry of the people was bringing a curse upon the land and they should be destroyed if they did not repent.” That’s the second thing, is wickedness and idolatry. Sometimes idolatry literally means idol worship and sometimes in the scriptures it just means they have a love for worldly things, anything besides God. And then we get another indicator in verse 24. “And it came to pass that though people did revile against the prophets and did mock them, and it came to pass that King Shule did execute judgment against all those who did revile against the prophets.”

  00:59:48 And this is a theme throughout the whole Book of Mormon, but especially in Ether. The Lord sends prophets to help them. All the prophets want to do is tell the people what God wants them to know and what will make them happy, and people don’t like to be told what to do. ‘Go. We want to be independent. You want to take away our agency.” We learn through the Book of Ether. It’s just foolish to not do what the prophets tell you because the prophets are always right. The Book of Mormon teaches us the prophets are always right and you can disagree with them and you can disobey them, but it’s at your own peril. Along with that, listen to this quote from President Packer about how prophets aren’t taking away our agency, but they’re just trying to help us.

  01:00:40 “Latter-Day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided as an expression of their own individual agency to obey the commandments of God.” Now, I love this part. “We are not obedient because we are blind. We are obedient because we can see.” We don’t follow the prophet simply because we have to out of a sense of duty. It’s because we want to. It’s because we see how following the prophet blesses us, not just in those big thus saith the Lord moments where we’re like, “Oh, the prophet, he’s laying down the hammer here. We need to obey him.” There’s so much blessings in just immersing ourselves in their teachings. I already brought up one earlier, the talk from Elder Holland that I used to listen to every day when I was dealing with mental health.

  01:01:35 It was my pump up song. I served my mission in Detroit and I was serving in a struggling branch. I read a talk by Elder Christofferson about conversion, and I said, “This is what I want for my branch.” It was like a playbook. We implemented play by play what he said, and it totally changed the trajectory of our branch. I could go on and on with ways that the prophets have helped me, and I would say this is why I feel so passionate about following the prophet, because I can see. I’ve seen the ways that prophets help us, and I’ve seen the ways that they’ve blessed my life as I followed them. But more importantly, when we understand why the Lord sends prophets, the most important reason that we follow the prophet is because prophets bring us to the Savior. They help us understand things about our Savior and about his plan for us.

  01:02:35 For example, if I think about why I love Joseph Smith, I love studying the prophet’s life, but why do I really love Joseph Smith? It’s because his teachings bring me closer to the Savior. Because of the things that he restored I understand the plan of salvation better. I understand the role that my Savior plays in my life. Joseph Smith brought me the Book of Mormon where I have beautiful teachings that help me understand the Atonement, like Alma 42, about the law of justice and the law of mercy, and how Christ appeases both laws. I think of Alma 7 where I learn about how Christ took upon Him infirmities.

  01:03:00 Prophets are the mouthpiece of God. They’re anointed by him to lead his church. Part of the reason we follow the prophet is because we love Christ. Hank, you mentioned when Sheri Dew was on the show, one of the things that she says is sustaining the prophet in today’s world takes faith. But not faith in them, faith in Jesus Christ, who called them. Doctrine & Covenants section 84. He that receiveth my servants, receiveth me, and he that receiveth me, receiveth my father. The same way that we receive the Father, if we receive Jesus is the same way that we receive Jesus if we receive his prophets. The prophets are a representation of the Savior. I’m so grateful for our prophets because they help me come to understand my Savior better.