John Bytheway: 00:07 That “then I will not go” reminds me of another beautiful story from the mythical town of Mayberry where Barney Fife gets his paycheck and says, “Well look at all these deductions and this tax.” And he says, “Well, you know what they say. You can’t take it with you.” Barney Fife says, “Well take it with me. They keep poking at me like this. I’ll be lucky if I get to go myself.”

Hank Smith: 00:33 That show is better when I hear you talk about it than when I actually watch it.

John Bytheway: 00:38 Hank, you’re talking about verse 39. I really like this. You adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, whatever that is, and suffer the hungry, the needy, and the naked, if I could add three words, which have life to pass by you, you’re treating things like people and people like things, and maybe that’s what Moroni is seeing there.

Hank Smith: 01:01 Sometimes we take better care of our phone than we do the people in our life. We spend time protecting it and getting it all, making sure it’s safe at all times. Do we even do that for people? This is from that same talk from President Faust.

  01:16 He said, “During my professional career I helped the heirs of a noble couple settle their estate. The estate was not large, but it was the fruit of many years of hard work and sacrifice. Their children were all decent God-fearing people had been taught to live the saving principles of the savior, but when it came to dividing up the property, a dispute developed about who should get what. Even though there was nothing of great value to fight about, feelings of selfishness and greed caused a rift among some of the family members.” Listen to this, “that never healed and then continued into the next generation. How tragic that the legacy, the hard work and the sacrifice of these parents turned out to be so destructive of family unity and love among their children. I learned from this,” President Faust says, “that selfishness and greed bring bitterness and contention. On the other hand, sacrifice and giving bring peace and contentment.” It really is. What’d you say, John? You treat-

John Bytheway: 02:22 Things like people and people like things.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 02:27 You’re not valuing the right thing. I’ve often thought of the creation as like this amazing object lesson. This world is beautiful and complicated and so wonderful. Yet the Lord states, “This is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” The earth is a thing. It’s not the work. If we get that order wrong, again, like John said, it’s not even that things are bad, but when we treat people like things and then things like we should be treating people like the real work of this and when it gets backwards it just leads to a lot of angst that could be solved by switching the order of those.

Hank Smith: 03:11 I love that.

John Bytheway: 03:12 I was thinking about Nephi’s statement. “We lived after the manner of happiness.” It wasn’t. “And we pursued the destination of happiness.” That’s your horizon because you’ll never get there. But it was a way of living of happiness that you can have that right now unless you go after the deceitfulness of riches and go for that horizon type of a thing.

Hank Smith: 03:33 Yeah, there’s quite a bit of envy in here too in Mormon eight. You love money, your substance, your fine apparel, the adorning of your churches, everyone’s going for more and more. Do you both remember this from Elder Holland? April 2012. “Envy is a mistake that keeps on giving.”

John Bytheway: 03:50 Just keeps on giving.

Hank Smith: 03:52 “Obviously we suffer a little when some misfortune befalls us, but envy requires us to suffer all good fortune that befalls everyone we know. What a bright prospect that is. Downing another quart of pickle juice every time anyone around you has a happy moment. Coveting, pouting, tearing others down does not elevate your standing.” Sheldon, I think you were very honest there. This can be a real temptation. That stuff, that stuff is going to make me happy. That happens when I go to Costco. I start looking around going, we need that. We need that too. I think we need that and we went in for milk and we come out with a hundred thousand dollars of debt. So any last thoughts on that, Sheldon?

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 04:37 This is a lesson in my experience that has to be relearned throughout life. Without pausing and not being proactive about it, it creeps back in. I think it is one of those, maybe the reason Moroni is mentioning it, it can be very prevalent. We see it in church history. This happens or things and dividing up of property. We see it in the Old Testament. This seems to be at the heart of a lot of self-infliction that we put upon ourselves where we put things in front of people and forget that the real work here is people building others. You mentioned Hank, that we tear down others. The first clinical psychologist that I worked for and he was my mentor, Dr. Randy High, an amazing person and he taught me this phrase. He said, “I try to help people learn this lesson and it sounds really harsh when I first say it. People don’t care about you. They care if you care about them.”

  05:42 And I’ve had to rethink that and then he used an example. He said, “Think of your typical teenager in biology and someone comes and he’s trying to impress the girl next to him and it’s like, ‘Hey, did you see me score that touchdown?” It’s so off-putting. I’m trying to convince and there’s this envy and this strife. He said, “Now compare that to the person that walks in and sits down and says, ‘Hey, nice shirt.” And he said, “What person do you think is going to have the better reaction?” He would teach people these little techniques to help them see if you put people first and be interested about them, you’re going to get a lot further than trying to convince them that they should really care about you because you’re really cool.

  06:24 It is this idea of we do that because of pride, because of envy. Do they really know who I am? And it’s a good life lesson. Be interested in other people. You’ll feel more connected. I’ll often talk with teenagers and young adults especially who will say, “I get in these social situations and I don’t know what to say. I want to feel valued in the conversation.” And they get really nervous. And I’ll often give them the advice. Well, instead of trying to rehearse what you’re going to say, why don’t you find out why everyone else there is really interesting?

  07:02 Instead of trying to convince everyone, “Wow, I am cool. I should be here too.” Find out why they are cool. If you notice people who are good at this, that really genuinely are interested in those around them and there isn’t envy and there isn’t strife and there isn’t pride, they’re the greatest people to be around. It has this reverse effect where all of a sudden you’re like, man, that person’s great. What do you know about them? They’re just so great because they’re realizing, oh wait, they were just finding out about me. That’s what I felt so neat that they cared. The antidote to that envy and pride is people we really are interested in other people.

Hank Smith: 07:42 John, you know Hilary Weeks, she taught me something that I’ve never forgotten. She said, “I used to be nervous in social settings until I had a switch. I stopped thinking what people thought about me and I started thinking, what do people think about themselves when they’re with me?”

John Bytheway: 08:01 Awesome.

Hank Smith: 08:02 Changed everything.

John Bytheway: 08:03 I guess the important thing here is what does Hilary Weeks think about me? No, I’m just kidding.

Hank Smith: 08:09 Well, we’ll have to ask her. Hilary, if you’re out there, John wants to know.

John Bytheway: 08:12 I’ve heard it said in bumper sticker brevity. To be interesting, be interested.

Hank Smith: 08:19 I love that Sheldon. The antidote is people. Don’t say, well, I’m going to like stuff less. It’s I’m going to fill that with relationships, connection. I got a quote Elder Oaks, do you remember this? He said, “Some of our most important choices concern family activity. Many breadwinners worry that their occupations leave too little time for their families. There is no easy formula for that contest of priorities. However, I have never known someone who looked back on their working life and said, I just didn’t spend enough time with my job.”

John Bytheway: 08:55 I wish I’d spent more time at the office.

Hank Smith: 08:57 Yeah.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 08:58 Ooh, that one’s going to hit close to home.

Hank Smith: 08:59 Do you guys remember this part of this talk that this dad wanted to take his kids on really huge vacations, memorable historic sites, and then at the end of the summer he asked his teenage son, which of all these amazing activities he enjoyed the most, the father learned from this reply. “The thing I liked best this summer” the boy replied, “was the night you and I laid on the lawn and looked at the stars and talked.” You adorn yourselves with that which hath no life and maybe your children are passing by you and you notice them not.

  09:35 Do you guys remember this part? The number of those who report that their whole family usually eats dinner together has declined 33%. This was back in 2007. He talks about how meal times can be a strong bulwark against future problems for children and then he gave this great line. “There is inspired wisdom in this advice to parents. What your children really want for dinner is you.” So Sheldon, I love that tangent. It’s people.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 10:03 Yeah, it really is. It’s a lesson that we just have to keep relearning. Elder Bednar had this wonderful example of balance and he said, “I don’t like when we talk about balance, like we’re on a tightrope and everything’s just right and now I’m balanced.” Talks about the street performer that has the plates that are spinning on all the sticks.

John Bytheway: 10:25 Yes.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 10:26 And which plate do you focus on? Well, the one that’s wobbly. We all have these ebbs and flows where we’re going to have to spend time at work. Or man, this big thing came up or there’s this tragedy. Our time is not ever going to be equally balanced. There is something about if people is the real goal of all this, of what I’m actually trying to accomplish, I think it helps.

Hank Smith: 10:50 Recently my good friend, Jeff Lewis, he’s in my ward, he works for UDOT, so shout out to my friend Jeff Lewis at UDOT. He asked me to coach flag football for our sons. And I said, “Jeff, I’m so busy.” And he said, “I’m busy too, but let’s do this.” And it has been so fun. I mean what I think are important meetings and I’m thinking about the lineup for the defense coming up for these 12 year olds. I’m so glad I did. In fact, another dad who is there came up to me and he knows that I’m pretty busy. We’re all pretty busy and he said, “I just don’t know how you had time for this.” And I thought about it and I said, “I didn’t. I didn’t have time for this. I had to make it.” And it has been so fun. Sheldon, as you looked into our last chapter, chapter nine, what do you want us to see?

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 11:43 In chapter nine, there’s another one of these moments I feel Moroni is taking a pause and saying, “Don’t miss this.” We know that there’s a caution of trying to broadcast, oh, this is miraculous or here’s a miracle because it’s sacred or over attributing something and I understand all those disclaimers. And there is something so beautiful and powerful about Moroni saying, but do not miss, miracles have not ceased, and we worship a God of miracles. As I reflect on my life, a pillar that I’ve been able to hold onto, although I wasn’t seeking after it, I wasn’t looking for a sign. If I shared it, maybe someone else could be critical, but I knew what I was experiencing. I’ve had experiences like you have that the only thing I can attribute it to is something divine was happening in my life that I cannot explain and it was miraculous.

Hank Smith: 12:52 Then those moments, they take your breath away. They really do. This is it. I’m in it. Like you said, Sheldon, it’s probably not a constant state. I still drive my car to work and I still have to deal with life, but there are moments where you know this is from heaven.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 13:10 I was on my mission in Paris, France, millions of people, few missionaries, so the likelihood of crossing paths with someone is not common. But my companion and I sit down on a train. The first thing this man says, “Hey, I know you, I’m a member of that church.” “Really.” Go to his apartment. He thought that we wouldn’t believe him, so he’s searching through his boxes to find his baptismal certificate and we’re telling him like, “Johnny, we believe you. This doesn’t happen a lot to us. We’re just going to take your word for it.” Partially through the conversation, his wife comes in, we didn’t even know he is married. She says, “Oh hey.” And just sits in and we just are talking about Jesus Christ. We’re talking about the Book of Mormon and it is overwhelming and she says, “Can you come back tomorrow?”

  14:00 Johnny says, “I’ll be at work, but you Elders please feel free to come.” So my companion and I are on the way home and we were like high five, and we wanted to invite her to be baptized and consider it. We would get home and realize we don’t know her name. It never came up. I know we could have gone and just said, “What’s your name? Oh, that’s right, now will you consider being baptized?” But I didn’t want to do that. I knew she had never said it. I remember kneeling down, almost apologizing. “Heavenly father, I’m sorry, I know I should have asked her name.”

  14:34 John, Hank, I’m trying not to embellish in any way. This clear thought came into my mind. Her name is Sylvie. And Sylvie is a French name but it’s not a really common French… So my companion and I go back the next day. I’m still a little nervous and she says, “Well, I’d like to learn English as well.” And so maybe the Lord is teaching me a lesson. My companion says, “Let’s start something simple like hello, my name is…” I still remember this moment when she says “Hello, my name is Sylvie.”

  15:18 I know she did not tell me her name. I know I didn’t see it on the wall. I have no other explanation other than God knows his children. It’s a miracle. Moroni is trying to warn us. We’re going to get so smart in these last days or we’re going to start discounting. There are going to be things that are still miraculous. Starting in verse seven. In verse seven, he’s starting this warning, so I’m in Mormon 9:7.

  15:49 “Again, I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God and say that they are done away. That there are no revelations nor prophecies, nor gifts nor healing, nor speaking with tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ. Yea he has not read the scriptures. If so, he does not understand them. For, do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever? And in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing. And now if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a God who doth vary and in whom there is a shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a God who is not a God of miracles. Behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles.”

  16:49 I am drawn back to, I don’t know how much room Moroni thinks he’s going to have left in the Book of Mormon. He’s mentioned that a couple of times. He wants us to know, “I am going to show you a God of miracles and he is still a God of miracles.” That is really important to hold onto, not seeking a sign, but there are a few moments in my life that I could look to and say, I don’t have an explanation other than I believe that God was working in the details of this situation. That brings me comfort when there’s times I wonder where he is, which still can happen and that’s part of mortality, but there have definitely been times I know he was in the details.

Hank Smith: 17:42 John, Sheldon, I’m going to share a story from Marilyn W. Berrett. This is a BYU devotional. Right towards the end she shared a story that I’d never forgotten and Sheldon it’s a lot like you say. What else could this possibly be? She said in August of 2001, I had the opportunity of traveling to India as part of BYU’s dancers company. We performed and taught in many major cities and she said, “The people of India are well-read. I saw great charity and spiritual qualities in the people most of whom are Hindu.” She had a great time and back then she used the word Mormons. There are not a lot of Mormons in India. But while we were there we met a small number of Latter-day Saint missionaries, humanitarian service missionaries and convert members. It’s not economically or socially easy to convert from Hinduism to Mormonism. Not only are the theologies extremely different, but a person loses social status and is often cut off from their family by simply becoming a Christian.

  18:46 She said, I’m not an expert about the complex social systems of India, but I have witnessed a variety of circumstances wherein the separation of those different castes was manifested. She talks about how one of her performances, this idea of the Untouchables, this different caste came up. She tells this story about one of the performances in which someone taught her about the Untouchables. She talked about how the Untouchables are the members of a group considered below even the lowest social caste, Varna. That’s the caste she’s going to talk about the woman whose story I’m about to share. Her name is Annapurna came from the highest Varna. She said, “I remember when I met Annapurna we were on a motorized rickshaw taxi ride.” She describes how terrifying it is. The drivers careen wildly through the streets.

  19:35 She said, “Annapurna and her husband, the new branch president and their eleven-month baby had met us at the airport. They helped arrange our transportation.” She said, “I rode in a rickshaw with one of the dancers and Annapurna. Her husband and baby went into a small car with other members of the group. Annapurna was a lovely hostess and her English was very good. And as we bounced along we exchanged the usual courteous greetings shared by people who have just met. Then I became very curious. I asked her to share her conversion story and how she made such a dramatic change from Hindu to Latter-day Saint. The spirit that engulfed us that late afternoon during our rickshaw ride was tangible.”

  20:14 She tells this story of coming from this Hindu family, many generations of Brahmin priests, her brothers were expected to follow this tradition and become Brahmin priests themselves. She says, “I’m not an expert, but Annapurna tried to explain what was going to be her part of this religion.” And then she said, “I always felt like there were so many steps that had to be taken in order to reach God. They were so complicated and took so long that I wished for a better way, an easier way. I yearned to access enlightenment or what I know now as a loving father in heaven, more directly and immediately, but I didn’t know how and I never shared my thoughts with anyone.”

  20:55 She goes on and says she was 17 Annapurna when her wonderful grandmother, the light of her life died. She said the grief was overwhelming. I desperately wanted to see my darima again, and I was struggling with accepting that she was gone. Imagining her essence going into another form wasn’t comforting to me. I kept feeling like my grandmother was near. I wanted to believe I could talk to her as I had known her, my darima. She was pouring out her feelings for comfort or hope and she was befriended by a member of the church. She found out that Latter-day Saints pray every day often several times a day to a loving father in heaven, but she doesn’t know how she’s going to tell her family.

  21:38 Now, this is the point where she says in the talk. Now the story gets really interesting. Annapurna’s sister, whom I mentioned earlier, had attended school in another city. They had been separated for years, but like Annapurna, she had been devastated by their grandmother’s death. Annapurna decides she needs to talk with her sister to tell her that she’s going to join the church. So they set up a time to meet and she said they sat down for lunch and Annapurna said to her sister, “I have to tell you something very important and I hope you will not hate me.” Her sister responded, “Well, I have to tell you something and it may mean that we will never see each other again.” They decided to say it at the same time. Each confessed at the same time. I have been baptized into the Mormon church.

  22:28 Wow. This is what Sister Berrett says. In a country where less than 3% of the entire population is Christian and less than 5% of those Christians are Latter-day Saints. The odds of two sisters meeting two different members of the church in two different cities in the same month are extremely low, but that is just how it happened. She quotes President Kimball, “There is a knowledge that our father in heaven wants each of us to have and that is a personal knowledge that he hears and answers our prayers.” Sheldon, you’re right on. “I will show unto you a God of miracles.”

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 23:06 Recognizing that God is a God of miracles. There’s a couple of things that stick out to me. One, there’s the macro levels. You look at some things that are just miraculous. I really do look at the speed at which we’re building temples around the world. Then there’s the micro miracles, the moments when I can’t explain it. Maxwell used to say that coincidences are the ways that God micromanages his universe. I love that concept and that strengthens me because I want to connect this back to Moroni. Because when you’re feeling alone or other things, it’s like, wait, where’s the God of miracles? I need him to show up now. Some of the miracles I think that I have experienced in my life is looking back and recognize moments when he’s growing me, but I really wanted him to do something else.

  24:10 I recognize your listeners, they’ve probably experienced some miracles pretty recently. Or they are witnessing some macro miracles and you’re going to have some who are wanting that God to show up. And to show up right away. Moroni’s words are as applicable. “Behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles.” Just keep being that follower of Jesus Christ. If you feel alone keep moving forward. So if you go to verse 12, I think with this concept he’s a God of miracles. He has to be because all of humanity needs a miracle.

  24:54 “Behold, he created Adam and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ.” That’s the ultimate miracle that’s going to really help us, even the Father and the Son because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man. I love this idea of he shows up in miraculous ways as we look at the whole world. Shows up in miraculous ways when I look at my own life. But ultimately shows up in that in death there is no sting. The ultimate miracle is he was crucified, he died and he rose again. For that, that is the miracle that’s going to give us all that opportunity to experience the ultimate miracle.

Hank Smith: 25:47 I think of the parents and grandparents listening and they think, well, how can I help my children show your children a God of miracles? Tell them what he’s done. Share those things like Sheldon did with his story from his mission. That testimony of I know this was divine, I was there.

John Bytheway: 26:10 I love verse 12. I can hear Bruce R. McConkie speaking of the three pillars of eternity. The Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement, right there in verse 12. These three pivotal events in the whole plan of salvation. And I was thinking when I brought my fiancée home when Kim was my fiancée. My dad thought, “Oh God is a god of miracles right now.” So I think that’s how he gained a testimony of it right now. This idea of God being a God of miracles. Recently we watched this movie, our family called Escape from Germany. Just right about the beginning of World War Two, late thirties actually when the Nazis were about to invade Poland. When I was watching it you guys, I kept thinking why have I never heard this story. And I guess that at the time when they were getting the missionaries out, I believe that, and forgive me if I get the details wrong, but that President Joseph Fielding Smith was like, “Don’t talk about it.”

  27:13 Because, it was still a current event and now it’s coming out. What happened? They got direction from the church, get the missionaries out, the Nazis will be invading Poland in about three days. And the mission president says, “Send somebody over to the U.S consulate.” They go over to the embassy and the guy comes out and says, “We don’t have any information about that.” He says to this Elder, this young Elder, “We have the finest intelligence service in the world.” And the Elder says, “With all due respect, sir, I think we have access to better intelligence than the United States government.” I will leave you to go watch what happens.

Hank Smith: 27:55 That’s great.

John Bytheway: 27:57 It was jaw dropping. That’s just another instance of God watching over people.

Hank Smith: 28:02 Yeah. John, that was T.C. Christensen, right?

John Bytheway: 28:05 Yeah, T.C. Christensen. It just called Escape from Germany.

Hank Smith: 28:08 Shout out to T.C.

John Bytheway: 28:11 I’ve watched it about five times. It’s jaw dropping. God is a God of miracles.

Hank Smith: 28:15 And Sheldon, this is from the March 2019 New Era, I believe really well-written finding miracles in everyday life. The size, timing and results of a miracle are not measures of our faith. Let’s say two families each receive news that one of their children has cancer. Both families pray for the loved one to recover quickly. Both families exercise faith in the healing power of Jesus Christ. The child of the first family makes a full recovery, defying the doctor’s predictions that she only has months to live. The child of the second family suffers through treatment and after treatment passes away, but the entire family is overwhelmed with peace and comfort rather than despair. The first family was not necessarily more faithful than the second. Both families received miracles in their own way and both miracles are a part of a pattern of continual reassurance that God has a plan for each of his children. So Sheldon as we read this chapter, I’m sure we don’t want anyone walking away saying, what’s wrong with me, this God of miracles? Where is he in my life?

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 29:17 Yeah, it can be a real temptation to look at that. I would say a couple of things. One would be there’s a caution here from Moroni not to seek after a sign or not to. It’s not this, hey, I’m going to believe if, and then where is the miracle? So instead of seeking after the miracle, but maybe a better verb might be to observe them when they happen. You’re right. It does not mean that we’re more or less faithful at times when it happens. I think of the Old Testament with Job, “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.” I think of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. But if not, I’m still going to believe.

  29:58 And we’ve had those moments where we want something to happen and it’s not. It’s healthy to be able to say we don’t have an explanation for why some things happen and others don’t. But when something shows up to have eyes tuned to see and ears tuned to hear, they do show up and God is still a God of miracles. That idea of observing them when they happen but not seeking after and then I will believe could be a good way to speak of miracles.

Hank Smith: 30:32 Thanks, Sheldon. That’s right on. I would add another caution, John, do you remember this from Third Nephi one. All these miracles are taking place, all these signs and wonders, and there began to be lying sent forth among the people by Satan to harden their hearts. That the intent they might not believe in those signs which they had seen. And there will be an effort to explain away some experience that you’ve had. Third Nephi two verse one, “The people began to forget signs and wonders and began to be less and less astonished at a wonder from heaven.”

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 31:09 That’s a category of people I never want to be a part of. I don’t ever want to be less and less astonished by the amazing miraculous things that God is doing.

John Bytheway: 31:22 Getting ahead of ourselves a little bit, but when Moroni starts saying, oh you guys, you’ve got to read this talk my dad gave or, you have to read this letter my dad sent me. Moroni 9:25, “My son, be faithful in Christ. May not the things which I’ve written grieve thee to weigh thee down to death.” This whole chapter is pretty bad. He’s reporting on how bad things are, and they’re really bad. “But may Christ lift thee up, may his sufferings and death and the showing his body unto our fathers and his mercy and long-suffering in the hope of his glory and of eternal life rest in your mind forever.” And it’s a great reminder of what are we allowing to rest in our minds?

Hank Smith: 32:05 That’s wonderful. Sheldon, one last verse. Right at the very end. Mormon 9:31, Moroni seems to have a bit of a moment of, “Hey, this isn’t perfect. Condemn me not because of my imperfection, neither my father because of his imperfection and anyone else who has written. But give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest to you our imperfections so that you can be more wise than we have been.” There’s a common question of what’s the expectation of a prophet? We had Sheri Dew on a couple of weeks ago and she said, “Are prophets perfect? No, but look who they’re following. Look who’s shaping them.” What comes to mind when you read a verse like that? “Condemn me not because of my imperfections.”

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 32:48 Recently there was a publication that was published on the church’s website in the Gospel library app. It’s under the category topics in questions in this section of seeking answers to your questions. And one of the articles is titled, Be patient with yourself and with others. One of the subheadings is be patient with church leaders. And there’s a quote from Elder Uchtdorf, “Be patient with church leaders. The church leaders called to direct this work are honest but imperfect people. Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf observed that there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. This was true in the past and is still true now. A church leader might say something that compounds your frustration or sense of isolation. They may not show the compassion or understanding you need. Showing patience with leaders does not mean we tolerate illegal or abusive behavior, but we should extend support, love, and patience to the vast majority of church leaders as they simply and imperfectly labor for Zion.”

  34:00 That is a wonderful summation of we’re all imperfect, we’re trying and be patient with each other, but I love Moroni’s message. Don’t condemn the work because there’s some imperfect people who get involved at times. That is really still great advice from Moroni.

John Bytheway: 34:21 When people are really focused on the servants of the Lord, the better question is who is the Lord of those servants? The question isn’t was Peter perfect? The question was Peter being taught and led and corrected by Christ. And he was. Reminds me of section 67. You know how Peter sank when he took his eyes off Christ, right? Matthew 14. Church history. Your eyes have been upon Joseph and his imperfections you have known, and his language you have known, but look at the revelations. There is no imperfection in them. It’s a great section.

Hank Smith: 34:57 That’s section 67 verse 5. And you have sought in your heart’s knowledge that you might express beyond his language. He’s like, you’re looking at the wrong things. You’re staring at these imperfections and you are condemning because of imperfections. Thanks. That was really helpful. Sheldon, before we let you escape, I think our audience would love to hear, let’s say they’re home and they’ve been studying these chapters with us and listening intently. What would you have them take away from what we’ve been discussing today? I think they’d love to know your thoughts about the entire book. How do you feel about this book?

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 35:36 Well, thanks for inviting me and thanks for asking that. About this section I would like to circle back to where we started. Whatever the experience you’re having is unique, but there are others who have had experiences that you can draw strength from. I think Moroni is one of those, and Mormon, they’re some of those people. The other thing that I would think is a great take home is we do worship a God of miracles. He’s the same yesterday, today and forever and he’s not done yet. We are the work with all of our roughness to us, but we are his work. I was a freshman in college. I went there to play baseball. I’m from Palmdale, California. I was not prepared well for college. I got good grades in high school, but I think I got A’s in a few classes because I showed up and didn’t start a fight.

  36:40 I was not quite prepared for college. I’d wake up, I’d go to class, I’d go to baseball practice, I’d go lift. I’d go to the library until it closed, and then just kept circling. No one had ever been to college before my brother and I. I was lost. I had a Book of Mormon class. And our professor said, “The first question on your exam is going to be, did you read the first half of the Book of Mormon? True or false? It’s worth half the points and don’t lie. I was getting towards the end of the semester, and I was at a breaking point. I was at a moment where I didn’t know if I was ever going to be able to do this. I didn’t know what I was going to do. And the day before I left off with Alma 26:26, I still remember I was studying chemistry.

  37:28 I closed my book, I pushed it aside. I think I was a little teary-eyed I was in this cubicle and I opened up and the verse that I had read, I’m sure I’d read before, but it never landed this way, was Alma 26:27, and it said this, “Now when our hearts were depressed and we were about to turn back, behold the Lord comforted us and said, go amongst thy brethren the Lamanites and bear with patience thine afflictions, and I will give unto you success.” I love literature, I love Shakespeare. I love all kinds of great writings. A book had never spoken to me like that. Like the Liahona, the words had changed this time. I love the Book of Mormon. I believe it was brought forth by the power of God through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I do. I believe it. I believe it with my whole soul. I know the stories about him and how. I believe it 100%. No book has ever guided my personal life in moments of need like the Book of Mormon, and I love it.

Hank Smith: 38:44 Sheldon, that’s wonderful. I feel bad for that little freshman sitting in that cubicle.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 38:49 I was so naive when Shad and I went, I sat down with the counselor. She goes, “So what classes do you want to take?” And I was like, “Dentist.” I was a freshman. I was a freshman.

John Bytheway: 39:01 That’s a class? Dentist?

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 39:03 Yes. Dentist classes. And she was like, “You mean chemistry?” And I was like, “Not really.” I was thinking, the only reason I thought that I was like, I know my dentist has Fridays off and drives a BMW. I think it’s the profession for me. I was completely naive. My dad went in the military and brothers went in the military. No one had ever been to college. Dentist. I thought it was like a trade school. I thought first semester you kind of used the model and then second semester you start working on teeth. How hard can it be? Upper class is how to put them out

John Bytheway: 39:38 Next semester. Here’s your Beamer.

Hank Smith: 39:40 Oh, that is fantastic. And look where you are. Now Sheldon, that is a perfect story for God is a God of miracles.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 39:49 Yes, he is.

Hank Smith: 39:51 Oh, Sheldon, thank you for being with us. Thank you for spending your time with us. We’ve loved it.

Dr. Sheldon Martin: 39:56 Thank you. You bless my family’s life. You bless my children. Listen, I know millions of people do, but just thank you everywhere you go for many decades and building people. So thanks.

Hank Smith: 40:10 That’s very kind of you. We’re just as grateful in return for you and for all those who listen. So with that, we want to thank Dr. Sheldon Martin for being with us today. What a treat. We want to thank our executive producer. She’s a miracle to us, right John? Shannon Sorensen. Our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We are jumping into the book of Ether on FollowHIM.

  40:41 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s Followhim.co. On our website you’ll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else.

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President Russell M. Nelson: 41:36 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.