Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. I’m your host, Hank Smith. I’m here with my great and marvelous co-host, John Bytheway. John, that’s 3 Nephi 21:9. Great and marvelous work. That describes you, great and marvelous. We are going through 3 Nephi 20 through 26 today. This is the Savior’s second day with the Nephites. What are you looking forward to? What comes to mind?

John Bytheway: 00:00:29 When I saw the lesson plan, 3 Nephi 20 through 26, people will look at that and say, “Oh, these are the words of Jesus,” but there’s all this Old Testament in there. He’s going to talk about Malachi. He’s going to talk about Isaiah. He’s going to talk about Micah. Even the prophecy of Joseph Smith sounds like in there. I’m really excited for Ross here because I would love some extra clarification on this part that comes from Micah. I’m really looking forward to that.

Hank Smith: 00:00:54 John, Ross Baron has become a good friend of mine over the last few years. When we first had him on, I didn’t know who he was. I said, “Who is this guy?” Since then, we have become fast friends. I’ve had many wonderful conversations through these last few years. Ross, what are we doing today?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:01:11 These are some of the most textually deep chapters. And if we zoom out a little bit, we’re talking about really the Savior in terms of his majesty and power in gathering his people. And when I say his people, I mean Gentiles, house of Israel, his people. And in some ways, day two is the Savior’s exposition on how the Abrahamic covenant is actually going to be fulfilled.

Hank Smith: 00:01:38 I’ll ask a student, “Tell me about the Savior’s visit to the Nephites,” and they quote the first day, something that happened in 3 Nephi 11 through 18. Then I say, “Well, that was the first day. What do you think of the second day?” Not very many people quote that second day. They honestly don’t know what’s happened. Maybe one of the reasons is what you said, Ross, it’s textually deep. It can be difficult. We’re going to make sure today that the second day is as wonderful as the first day in the minds of our listeners. Ross has been here before. John, if you could give us a quick introduction, that will be helpful.

John Bytheway: 00:02:15 We’re so glad he’s back because that was a very memorable episode when we had Ross before. He was born and raised in Southern California. Joined the church at age 18, served a mission in Argentina. He and his wife have nine children and 18 grandchildren. He received a bachelor’s degree from BYU and a master’s and PhD from USC, University of Southern California, in religion and social ethics. Before he started teaching at BYU Provo, he was involved in business and entrepreneurship. Then he was an institute director in Southern California. Taught at BYU-Idaho.

  00:02:54 Currently, he’s in Utah serving in a YSA Bishopric. I love these points in his bio. He swam across San Francisco Bay for the Escape From Alcatraz Triathlon, not as an inmate but as a participant. He went on The Price Is Right and won a stove, a mop, and a barrel sauna. He went on the History Channel to represent the church. He was on a Southern California radio program where people could call in and ask any questions about the church. He’s played the drums at Guitars Unplugged at BYU-Idaho. Their band made it to the best of. All sorts of fascinating. You’re a well-rounded guy. You’re playing the drums and you won a stove, a mop, and a barrel sauna.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:03:41 What’s better than that?

Hank Smith: 00:03:42 What could be better?

  00:03:44 All right, Ross, let me read from the Come, Follow Me manual and let’s have some fun. This is how it starts. It says, “When you hear people use terms like house of Israel, do you feel like they’re talking about you? The Nephites and Lamanites were literal descendants of Israel, a branch of the tree of Israel, and yet they felt lost from its body.” That’s Alma 26. “But the Savior wanted them to know that they were not lost to him. ‘Ye are of the House of Israel,’ he said, ‘and ye are of the covenant. He might say something similar to you today, for anyone who is baptized and make covenants with him is also of the house of Israel, of the covenant. In other words, when Jesus speaks of the house of Israel, he is talking about you. The instruction to bless all the kindreds of the earth is for you. The invitation to awake again and put on thy strength is for you. And his precious promise, ‘My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,’ is for you.'” Ross, at least one of the lessons is reminding these people of Nephi who they are and where they’re from. With that, Ross, where do you want to start?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:46 What I’d like to do, even though the block is 3 Nephi 20 through 26, day two starts in 3 Nephi 19. 3 Nephi 11 through 18 is day one. We’ve had this incredible experience. And like you said, Hank, people will generally glom on to day one, remember what was said in day one. As soon as you hit 20, 21, and 22, it’s pretty deep water. Let’s briefly talk about 3 Nephi 19. I had an experience where Elder Holland visited our stake in Rexburg, Idaho. He took as his text 3 Nephi 19, but framed it with this. He talked about what do you do when Jesus says he’s going to come back, but you don’t know when, what would you do? He used 3 Nephi 19 as a template in a way to talk about the second coming. Use these verses where, number one, the 12 get together. They then divide the people and they teach.

  00:05:44 Then in verse 9, “And they did pray for that which they most desired and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them.” What do we do while we wait for Jesus for the second coming? We listen to the 12 and we pray for that which we most desire, which is the Holy Ghost. We then participate in ordinances. In this case, they’re going to participate in baptisms. Then we’re going to receive the Holy Ghost. It’s going to encircle us as if it were by fire. All these things are preparatory to what’s going to happen. And I think it’s so interesting, at the end of verse 14, “Angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.” Verse 15, “And it came to pass while the angels were ministering unto them, the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.”

  00:06:30 I love what Elder Holland did there. It’s not in any General Conference talk. If anybody wants the reference for it, I can’t give you the reference except that he talked about it in a stake conference. I loved the take he had on this. It’s beautiful. Then there’s something else that’s going on here. The people are so overwhelmed. And, by the way, we should be clear, the multitude in 3 Nephi 11 through 18, at the end of verse 3 Nephi 17, it says, “There were 2,500 people.” They have spent all night going to their friends, neighbors, family, begging them to come to day two. Can you imagine? You go to your family and say, “You’re coming to day two.” And they’re, “I don’t want to go to another meeting.” “No, I’m going to knock you out and drag you. You’re coming to this meeting.”

  00:07:15 Whatever multitude, we know 2,500 people day one. I have to imagine, I don’t of course know, that it’s got to be double or triple that, maybe more. We don’t get the numbers for day two, but we got them for day one. This is a massive multitude. The Savior shows up after angels are ministering. They’ve witnessed the 12 who have had fire encircle them after they were baptized. They got their prayer answered from verse 9. Then the Savior does something super interesting. He immediately kneels down and starts to pray. He thanks the Father that they’ve been given the Holy Ghost, but then verse 21, “Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words.” That pattern continues, verse 23, “And now, Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me that we may be one.”

  00:08:10 And I know I’m going back a little bit, but in 3 Nephi 18 when they had the sacrament, which is very similar to the pattern that happened when he fed the 5,000. Feeding the 5,000, by the way, occurs in the Book of Matthew, the Book of Mark, the Book of Luke, and the Book of John. Not all things in the gospels, as we know, show up in all four books, so whenever they do, I take notice. The pattern is this. In 3 Nephi 18, Jesus talks to the Father as he blesses and breaks the bread. He then gives it to the disciples. The disciples then give it to the multitude. You see the pattern? I believe there’s a temple pattern here as well.

  00:08:48 The Father talks to the Son, the Son talks to the disciples, the disciples then distribute to the multitude. That’s why Paul in Romans 10 verse 17 says, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.” We’re going to get that witness from somebody else. Joseph himself, Joseph Smith, is going to get it from James. James is going to bear witness to the soul of the prophet Joseph, the young boy Joseph. “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.” It’s that witness by James that’s going to motivate him to go into a grove and pray. I love the pattern that’s going on here.

  00:09:24 Again, repeated Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and then 3 Nephi 18. And then the Savior is now praying that they will believe their words, their words. I need to believe in the 12. By the way, the first beatitude, 3 Nephi 12, “Blessed are ye if ye will give heed unto the 12 whom I have chosen.” That is the first beatitude at the temple sermon. That’s amazing. That is so powerful. By the way, when he comes, he introduces himself in 3 Nephi 11, “Behold, I am Jesus Christ,” then immediately says, “whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.” Immediately upholds his prophets and apostles.

  00:10:01 That’s repeated again in verse 29, this idea that they will believe … In 28, they’re going to believe in their words. Then one other comment, “That I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me that we may be one.” Sometimes we talk in the church about being united, about being one. But it begs the question, one or united in what? What are we united in? Football teams are united. You can have a club that’s united. Wicked people can be united. We have to be … And I think this is super important, Zion is one heart, one mind. We have to be one with Christ and with Christ’s servants, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve.

  00:10:43 Hank and John, you and I could have different views on how to achieve different things. This would be beautiful that the three of us could be totally united in our love for Jesus Christ and his servants, the First Presidency and the Twelve, but still have diversity in the way in which we carry that out and still be united. That is critical. The idea that, “I may be in them as thou, Father, are in me, that we may be one,” one in them, one in his servants. And I believe that’s what’s going on in these things that the Savior’s doing with them in 3 Nephi 19, which is the beginning of day two.

Hank Smith: 00:11:19 The reality is that I would know nothing about Jesus if it were not for his called prophets and apostles. You might say, “Well, I can have access to Jesus anytime,” but you wouldn’t even know he exists without Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Joseph Smith, Paul. You would know nothing about him. So to say, “I can have access to the Lord without accepting them as prophets and apostles,” is being double-minded, talking out of both sides of my mouth that, “Oh, I can accept Jesus without them,” but the only way I know about Jesus is because of them.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:11:57 Amen. I love it.

Hank Smith: 00:11:58 Don’t we see that in Chapter 19 in a way because the Savior isn’t there when they all get there? It’s the 12.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:05 It’s the 12.

Hank Smith: 00:12:06 And maybe the Savior is holding back saying, “Let’s see how you accept them. Then I will come.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:12 That is beautiful, and that is exactly right. In fact, that’s why I said he starts out 3 Nephi 11 with, “I am Jesus Christ whom the prophets testified shall come into the world,” very first thing. Then 3 Nephi 12, the first beatitude is, “Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the 12.” Then 3 Nephi 19, the 12 get baptized. They see the 12 encircled by the Holy Ghost. He upholds the 12 and then he prays that we’ll believe on their words that we may be one. Yes, Hank, that’s exactly what’s going on. It’s beautiful.

  00:12:42 If I can do one other thing in 3 Nephi 19, my students always ask, “Brother Baron, they’re praying to Jesus. We’re not supposed to pray to Jesus.” They start to pray to him. Verse 18, “And behold, they began to pray, and they did pray unto Jesus calling him their Lord, their God.” And they’re all like, “We don’t get it.” And you’re not supposed to pray to the Savior. But if Jesus came, I think we’d be so overwhelmed we would tend to fall down and worship him. But I love what Jesus does. “And it came to pass that Jesus departed out of the midst.” He goes out and he says, “Father.” He deflects their prayer and he basically says, “They pray to me because I am with them,” at the end of verse 22. He is super careful to deflect their prayers to him and immediately be the submissive Son. And remember, he’s glorified, resurrected. This isn’t the Jesus of mortality; this is now the glorified who sits on the right hand of God. But still always submissive, always grateful, and making sure that they understand the divine pattern.

  00:13:48 At the end of 3 Nephi 17, if I might jump back quickly there, he prays there. The multitude are overcome. In verse 16, it says, “The eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father. No tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak.” Why can’t we utter those things? And I think there’s a little insight here that’s similar to what happens in 19. “No one can conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father.”

  00:14:28 I’m going to venture out and do a teeny bit of speculation here. We know that they had a one-by-one experience. We know that each one went and felt the nail prints in his hands and in his feet and thrust their hands into his side. We know that. Now they’re saying, “We can’t conceive of how much joy filled our hearts when he prayed for us.” What if, what if, again, speculation, but what if while he was praying, Hank, you heard him praying for you? And John, you heard him praying for you? Very specifically, almost like a patriarchal blessing. And I heard him praying for me, and every single person in some God-like way in his time, what we didn’t hear was a general prayer. We heard him pray for us and it melted our hearts as he knew us and prayed for us and strengthened us.

  00:15:19 At the end of 19:32, “Tongue cannot speak the words which he prayed, neither can be written by man the words which he prayed.” They’re overcome. Then at the end of verse 35, “So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews, wherefore I could not show unto them.” Show unto them. Show unto them what? He didn’t do any miracles, not in 19. He hasn’t raised anybody from the dead, not in 19. “So great miracles because of their unbelief.” And I’m suggesting that something happens during this prayer that the Savior utters that is as miraculous as raising someone from the dead. That’s what I’m suggesting. And that’s how we start day two. This is our day two intro, which is absolutely incredible.

John Bytheway: 00:16:05 What sticks out to me at the end of that verse, “I could not show unto them so great miracles because of their unbelief.” It’s like, “I wanted to, I was willing to, I was able to, but I could not because of their unbelief.” We have other instances of that sort of a thing. He’s not going to reward unbelief.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:16:23 In Matthew 13 at the end, he basically says exactly the same thing. Matthew records, “He couldn’t do many miracles because of lack of faith.” Lack of belief. We close the mouths of the prophets. The prophets can, obviously, speak the word of the Lord. But if we don’t give heed, if we don’t act, then they’re not going to speak. That’s what’s going on there.

Hank Smith: 00:16:43 Both of you, feel free to correct me here, but as we’ve been studying the Book of Mormon this year, one thing I’ve noticed is that the theology between God the Father and the Son is not as laid out as I thought it was. If you’d talk to one of these Nephites before Christ come, they might not have been able to articulate the theology that you and I have. So I can see them praying unto Jesus and Jesus understanding that saying, “They don’t quite have the theology yet.” Because after this, when you hear Mormon and Moroni teach, they teach the separation between the two, but there’s not a lot of that before. If someone were to say, “Well, they pray to Jesus, why can’t I pray to Jesus?”, we’re not in their same position.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:17:27 I think what you’re saying is right on, Hank. 3 Nephi 20 and 3 Nephi 21, the Father is mentioned 20 times in 3 Nephi Chapter 20 and 19 times in 3 Nephi 21. That’s the most in any chapter. To your point, he seems to be trying to make a very clear distinction now theologically about that. I think you have some really good evidence in these chapters. He’ll even say when he introduces Malachi, “The Father commanded Malachi.” He will say, “It was the Father who commanded Malachi. It is the Father’s work. It is the Father’s plan. I am going to carry out the will of the Father as his beloved Son.” But I think what you’re saying is very accurate.

Hank Smith: 00:18:13 We have heard the term the Father before in the Book of Mormon, but oftentimes, it’s referring to Jesus. Abinadi, he was referring to Jesus when he talked about the Father.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:18:22 In 2 Nephi 31, Nephi does hear the voice of the Father. There are some, but your point is it’s not as clear theologically and I think it’s not as clear theologically in the Old Testament as well. Students will always ask me, “Is this the Father or the Son?” And I say, “Kind of moot, not clear.” It’s not really anything they’re thinking about.

Hank Smith: 00:18:43 Ross, as we head into these next few chapters, here you are. You grew up Jewish and then you read the Book of Mormon. You’re hearing from Isaiah in the beginning of the book. You’re probably pretty familiar. And then we get into Jacob, Mosiah, Alma, and we lose a lot of that Old Testament talk and then here we pick it up again. Was that a great moment?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:19:05 Yeah, that’s great. That’s interesting what you’re saying. I read the Book of Mormon really fast when I found out about it and they gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon. I was like Parley P. Pratt, I couldn’t sleep, I couldn’t eat. I was reading the Book of Mormon. It was in 3 Nephi when I had my experience with the Spirit. It was right in these chapters. Really interesting that you bring that up because this is where I had to stop reading. I was overwhelmed and I knew that it was the word of God. And it was in exactly these chapters.

  00:19:41 That totally happened for me. Because you’re right, 1 Nephi, going into 2 Nephi, has a very Hebraic structure in terms of syntax, grammar. And then the further you get away, it’s less. And then all of a sudden, when the Savior shows up, it clicks back in, which is really cool. Now we’re going to get more into Isaiah again and we’re going to get this Old Testament flavor. And the Savior, like John mentioned, is he’s going to use Isaiah 52, he’s going to use Micah, he’s going to use Isaiah 54, and he’s going to weave them his own ways and he’s going to interpret. It’s remarkable. It really is remarkable. And there’s a profound depth to it. That springboards us into 20 beautifully.

Hank Smith: 00:20:22 It seems to me that Nephi and Jacob remember, or in Jacob’s case at least, he hasn’t lived in Israel but he remembers hearing about it. And then after Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, King Benjamin, Alma the Elder, Alma the Younger, not a lot, if any, of the covenant Abraham, who we are or where we’re from. Am I stretching it to say maybe these people have forgotten or that topic of, this is who we are, this is the covenant. Has that been forgotten?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:02 I’m down with that.

Hank Smith: 00:21:03 I wonder if when Jesus comes and he says, “You are my people, the house of Israel,” I wonder if there’s people there who go, “We’re Nephites.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:11 Yeah, we’re Nephites.

Hank Smith: 00:21:11 We’re Nephites.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:11 Well, I think you’ve got this wrong.

John Bytheway: 00:21:15 I’ve always felt like just the existence of the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon is like Nephi going, “Listen, we lost our real estate, but we can’t lose our identity. This is still who we are. The promises still apply to us, and the blessings still apply to us, and the burden still applies to us. We got to live like house of Israel.” And I love how constantly Jesus is going to be telling them, “This is who you are. The day before I told them about you, you are my other sheep and I’m going to bring you also.” And scriptures keep reminding them of that, because not it’s just who you are, but there’s the blessing and the burden of being Abrahamic covenant and what goes along with that.

Hank Smith: 00:21:55 I think so. That’s beautiful. That’s great. Well said.

  00:21:58 Okay, Ross, what do you want to do?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:22:00 Again, zoom out for a minute. I actually think 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 are going to be the most in-depth and it’s the Savior teaching. Gathering of Israel, fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. And it dovetails, I believe, perfectly with what President Nelson said in 2018 when he spoke about the hope of Israel. “The Lord is hastening his work to gather Israel.” Like what you said, Hank. Maybe a lot of young people are like, “We hear that, we don’t know what that means.” No. The Lord is hastening his work to gather Israel. That gathering is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude. Nothing else compares in importance. Nothing else compares in majesty.” To me, day two is that. We are now going to talk about that. What I love about the Savior, before we have this long discourse, we’re going to eat. And we’re going to have another sacrament experience. We’re going to have another covenantal experience. We’ve lost it a little bit in our culture, and that is when you eat with somebody, and this is big in the Middle East, you are at one with them.

  00:23:17 So if somebody saw John and I eating together, subconsciously, they automatically know we’re friends. Yeah, those guys are friends. They eat together. What Jesus does at the end of 3 Nephi 18, day one, he eats with them. Shows up 3 Nephi 19, he’s going to have these experiences we’ve talked about. We’re going to then have another sacramental experience and we’re going to eat together. Day one, we have a sacrament. Day two, we have a sacrament. And then he says, and I love this, verse 9, “Now when the multitude had all eaten and drunk, behold, they were filled with the Spirit, were one with Jesus, they did cry out with one voice.” I want to think you cry out with one voice in song. We all sing with one voice and gave glory to Jesus whom they both saw and heard. And then now the Savior says, “Behold, now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people.” I’ve been reading 3 Nephi 20 and 21 for decades and I’ve been trying to understand these chapters.

  00:24:18 I’m going to give you a frame, and I don’t want the frame to be so tight that we can’t have some movement, but the frame is the following. Verse 10, like I read, “Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning,” and I want you to highlight or circle or think about or write, “this people who are a remnant of the house of Israel.” When the Savior says, “This people,” he’s referring to the people of Lehi, all the people that intersected with them, like Mulekites, et cetera. But we’re talking Ishmael’s family, this people. And then he uses the indefinite article, a remnant of the house of Israel. This is critical. Then he talks about Isaiah. Then he says, verse 12, “And verily, verily I say unto you that when they shall be fulfilled,” the prophecies of Isaiah, “then is the fulfilling of the covenant which the Father hath made unto his people, O house of Israel.” Second category. It’s now general. His people, O house of Israel. When Jesus talks about his people, he’s not talking specifically about Lehi people or Jews. He’s talking about the other tribes of the house of Israel. We okay so far?

  00:25:30 Verse 13, “And then shall the remnants,” again, that’s his people, O house of Israel, “which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth, be gathered in from the east, from the west, from the south, from the north, and they shall be,” most importantly, that was me adding that, “brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God who hath redeemed them.” We’re going to now know about Jesus Christ, we’re going to know about what he’s done, and we’re going to be invited to unite ourselves with him through the doctrine of Christ. Verse 14, “And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you,” this people, “this land.” Now, next group, third group. “And I say unto you that if the Gentiles,” okay, that’s our next group, so we’ve got this people, we’ve got his people, we’ve got Gentiles, “do not repent after they have the blessing which they shall receive after they have scattered my people,” Jews. Four groups, this people, people of Lehi. His people, O house of Israel, general, Gentiles and my people.

  00:26:35 Here comes the Micah prophecy. He’s going to then use Micah Chapter 5 verses 8, then Micah verse 17, then Micah Chapter 5 verse 9. Then he’ll go in verse 18, Micah Chapter 4 verse 12 and verse 19 is Micah Chapter 4 verse 13. The Savior … I love how he can use Scripture. He’s going to weave the Scripture. He’s going to liken Scripture. “Then shall ye,” I think he’s talking about the Lehi people, the people of Joseph, “who are a remnant of the house of Jacob shall go forth among them,” Gentiles, “and ye,” Lehi people, “shall be in the midst of them,” Gentiles, “who shall be many, and ye shall be among them.”

  00:27:15 And then here’s the simile. “You’re going to be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest,” and then paralleled with that, “as a young lion among the flocks of the sheep.” So you’ve got lion and young lion, beasts of the forest and flocks of sheep. “Who,” this lion or young lion, “if he goeth through,” either beasts of the forest or flocks of sheep, “will tread down and tear in pieces, none can deliver.” What people get concerned about is, is this a prophecy about Lamanites raising up and using violence? And I think that is not correct and I’ll tell you why.

  00:27:50 Verse 18, “I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.” The context here is the idea of a harvest. It’s a gathering. What’s going on is we are gathering. Now, look at the Micah prophecy in verse 19. “For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted. Yea, I’ll make thy horn iron.” A horn, Old Testament, keren is the Hebrew word, is symbolic for strength and power. “I will make thy horn iron.” Which will go to Isaiah 52 where he talks about putting on thy strength O Zion, which in section 113, the Lord revealed that means putting on the power of the priesthood. To do what? Not to do violence. To gather people to Jesus Christ.

  00:28:41 And, by the way, in Deuteronomy Chapter 33 verse 17, do you remember the blessing upon Joseph? The wild bullock with his horns will do what? Push the people back to Christ. What are we doing in 19? I will make thy horn iron. In other words, you’re going to put on the power of the priesthood. “I will make thy hooves brass,” the direction that you go. “And thou shalt beat in pieces many people.” The phrasing beat in pieces in the Hebrew is the idea of threshing. Again, we’re talking harvest metaphors here. We’re going to thresh, we’re going to gather. And what are we going to do when we gather? We’re going to consecrate their gain unto the Lord, their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. “Behold I, Jesus, am he who doeth it.”

  00:29:25 What we’ve got in these Micah prophecies about Joseph in the latter days, both Lamanites and the people at Ephraim and Manasseh who are gathering the people from all four corners of the earth with the power of the priesthood, they are bringing the people and then consecrating all the diversity of gifts to gathering them to Jesus Christ.

John Bytheway: 00:29:46 First of all, I love how you helped us see these different groups he’s addressing because, Hank, was it Scott Woodward that talked about the different audiences of the Book of Mormon? It was the remnant, who is this book, children of Lehi, right? It’s the house of Israel. It’s also written to the Gentiles. Those three are boom, boom, boom. Jesus addressed those three right here.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:11 And I would add a fourth.

John Bytheway: 00:30:12 Yeah, you added the fourth, of my people.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:15 My people. Jesus will constantly say through the Doctrine & Covenants, through the Scriptures, “I came unto mine own and mine own received me not.” When he talks about my people … Can I jump to verse 29? Verse 29, “And I will remember the covenant which I have made with my people and I have covenanted with them that I would gather them together in my own due time. That I would give unto them again the land of their fathers for their inheritance, which is the land of Jerusalem,” clearly, we’re not talking about Lehi’s people anymore, “which is the promised land unto them forever, saith the Father. And it shall come to pass that the time cometh when the fullness of my gospel shall be preached unto them,” the Jews, “and they shall believe in me that I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and shall pray unto the Father in my name.” This goes to Hank’s point. Now they’re going to have an understanding of how to bridge the gap, of how to actually understand the true nature of God, his Son, to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. I’m suggesting 29 through 31 is specific not to the house of Israel in general, not to Lehi’s clan, not to Gentiles, but to Jews.

John Bytheway: 00:31:28 The Jews are his “my people”.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:30 My people.

John Bytheway: 00:31:31 In verse 18 and in verse 29.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:34 29, 30, and 31.

John Bytheway: 00:31:35 Those that he visited.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:38 Those are my people. And, by the way, Jesus is from the house of Judah. That would make sense to me that my people would be the people of the house of Judah. Now sometimes the Savior will say, “My people, O house of Israel.” That’s a nuance to slide a bit away from my specific designation. And then if you go to the last verse of 3 Nephi 20, “Verily, verily, I say unto you,” I’m in verse 46, “all these things shall surely come even as the Father hath commanded me. Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people,” notice this now, this is super important, “the Father which hath covenanted with his people,” the house of Israel in general, “and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.”

  00:32:24 Wow. I’m pretty excited about it. In other words, I really think that if somebody is listening to this right now and wants to have an amazing experience, and you made four columns, and you said this people, his people, my people, and Gentiles, and then that’s how you frame 3 Nephi 20, 21, 22, and then you said the blessings that he’s giving to each one of them, it’ll open the chapters to you. It’ll open the chapters to you.

Hank Smith: 00:32:52 Ross, let’s do something real quick because I know there are listeners out there saying, “Man, I wish I had a better grasp of this.” When we talk about the gathering of Israel, isn’t it pretty crucial that we have at least a basic understanding of the scattering? Because we say, “Oh, God made a promise, the Father made a promise, Jesus made a promise with ancient Israel that he would gather them. Well, why didn’t he keep them together in the first place?” Those of you who are listening, if you want an in-depth version, John and I did this with Dr. Shon Hopkin way back in Episode 9 on 2 Nephi 11 through 19. If you remember that, John, we went and did a, “Let’s start at Abraham and go all the way up.” But Ross, can you give us … I don’t know how quick you can do a summary, but it starts way back in Genesis with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God says, “You’re going to be my people that’s going to bless the whole earth.” You’re not my special people that I only love, it’s, “You’re the people I’m going to use to bless all the families of the earth.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:48 Right on. Let me do it as quick as I can. First off, I like to say that Exodus 19 when he says, “I’m going to make my people a holy people,” that’s plan A. It’s not just a particular tribe gets the priesthood. It’s that we become a kingdom of priests and priestesses, kings and queens. And what’s the purpose of that? To be fanned on a chair and to be fed grapes? No, it’s to waste and wear our lives out to bring people to Jesus Christ. It’s literally to serve humanity. That’s what the whole idea of being chosen is. But then I call it the second fall. In Exodus 32, people worship a golden calf, are riotous, and then Moses is upset, God’s upset. That’s the second fall. The Abrahamic covenant, we always talk about four blessings. We’ll say, “Oh, Abraham got the blessing of land. He got posterity. He got the ministry. And he got the fullness of the gospel.” Awesome. And then I always say, “With those blessings come corresponding responsibilities.” You cannot talk about the blessings of Abraham without talking about corresponding responsibilities.

  00:34:55 The four corresponding responsibilities, as I dovetail it, to work in with the latter days, is that we have to live the gospel. That is, we have to keep the commandments. And God knew that Abraham would. In Genesis 17, he says, “I know you, and I know you will live the gospel.” Number two, we got to care for those in need. Number three, we have to unite families for eternity. And number four, we have to invite all to come unto Christ. Here’s how you understand the Old Testament. Here’s how you understand the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. If you stop living the gospel, caring for those in need, uniting families for eternity, and preaching the gospel, then you lose all of the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and then hence you are thenceforth, quoting Jesus, “good for nothing but to be trodden under foot of men”.

  00:35:43 You are then scattered, but the scattering always serves a purpose. God doesn’t do anything, 2 Nephi 26:24, “Save it be for the benefit of the children of men.” His scattering is then to allow them to be in a position where we can have the earth blessed to the degree we can and then we’ll bring them back, but bringing them back is less about bringing them back to a particular place, although there is that aspect, but more about bringing them back into the fullness of the gospel covenant.

  00:36:12 Again, if you want understand the Old Testament and you understood it in terms of the Abrahamic covenant, blessings and responsibilities, then you understand the scattering of Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:36:21 Yeah. When we talk scattering, are we talking about a scattering or a scattering in general? Because when Israel comes back to the promised land under Joshua, they’re there. We’re ready to be the people. We’re ready to be holy. We’re ready to bless the earth and then we choose kings. We don’t want Jehovah. We want a king and Jehovah, through Isaiah and others, says, “You’re going to be scattered, but one day, one day, I will bring you back. I will gather you together again.” Is that the verse 29? I will remember the covenant which I have made, the one that I made back when Isaiah was alive.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:36:55 Yep. This is why it connects to what President Nelson said, this part of the time we live on the earth is the time of the ultimate fulfilling of the promises of God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In fact, no prophet quotes 1 Nephi 15 more than President Nelson when he says that the promises that Abraham got will be fulfilled in the latter days. There were others, some gatherings together, we worked on it, but it’s really now that we’re actually completely fulfilling or going to completely fulfill these particular promises. Love that. I hope that was helpful.

Hank Smith: 00:37:34 I think it was.

John Bytheway: 00:37:35 Absolutely. And I’m looking at the very fact that Jesus quoted the Abrahamic covenant in 3 Nephi 20 verse 27, “After you were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham saying,” as we go, would you say this is the first time it’s been spoken in the Bible anyway, Genesis 12 is the footnote there?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:37:56 Yep.

John Bytheway: 00:37:56 In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. I always like to say, what is the greatest blessing we can offer each other, our brothers and sisters in the world? It’s down the street at the temple to gather families together.

Hank Smith: 00:38:13 Agreed. This gathering, Ross, that Jesus is talking about, this is the same gathering that Nephi was looking forward to.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:20 1 Nephi 22. Exactly.

Hank Smith: 00:38:22 Nephi was saying, “One day, one day, it’s going to happen,” and Jesus comes and says, “One day, we’re closer now. We’re 600 years closer. It’s still a ways off, but one day, I will gather you together again.” I loved our episode with Dr. Josh Sears, John, if you remember, when we talked about the apostasy. And he said frequently … We talked about the apostasy as a loss of the New Testament church. He said he wanted us to think of it a little differently, the apostasy, as the loss of the covenant. No one’s talking about the covenant. After Jesus, you don’t hear much about the covenant of Israel until Moroni comes to Joseph Smith and starts quoting all these Old Testament prophecies. He doesn’t quote New Testament books. He quotes Old Testament books. Don’t think of the apostasy as Jesus came, in the New Testament, established his church. It’s gone. We’re going to bring it back. Think of it as the covenant that was given to Abraham. What did he call it, John, a covenant consciousness is off of the earth.

John Bytheway: 00:39:19 Yeah. First time I heard that phrase from Dr. Robert Millet that we’ve had on the podcast who talks about we seem to have a lack of covenant consciousness and I’ve even heard him say that the restoration of the gospel was in fact a restoration of covenants. Joseph Fielding McConkie, I remember, saying that sometimes we talk about the New Testament church. He said, “Who came back, John the Baptist, to restore what?” Aaronic priesthood. Aaron. Oh, that’s Old Testament. Peter, James, and John came to do what? Restore Melchizedek priesthood. Oh, that’s Old Testament. And then he would say, “This is the old-time religion.”

Hank Smith: 00:39:54 That’s awesome.

John Bytheway: 00:39:55 And here we are looking at Jesus talking about Abraham and Micah and here comes Isaiah in a minute and Malachi.

Hank Smith: 00:40:03 Yeah. If we have any listeners out there who are going, “Man, I wish I could understand the scattering more,” go back to our episodes there in 2 Nephi. We really tried to lay that out for our listeners.

John Bytheway: 00:40:15 The scattering and gathering has an order. First, you get scattered in your testimony. I call it first you’re scatterbrained and then you’ll lose your real estate. Now how do you get gathered? You get gathered in your heart and mind to Christ. Today, you gather to stakes of Zion physically. It’s spiritual, then it becomes physical, and then to be gathered again, it’s also spiritual first and then becomes physical.

Hank Smith: 00:40:40 I like that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:40:42 I think that’s well said.

Hank Smith: 00:40:43 Let me ask you another question, Ross, before I let you move on. And that is, why is this gathering so important to Jesus? We’re talking Genesis Chapter 12. Let’s move on. He made a promise, right? He chose a family. By the end of the Old Testament, you’re thinking, “Get a new family.” This is not the family you want. They can’t do it. But would you say that this is so important to him because he made a promise a couple of millennia ago and he intends on keeping it?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:41:11 Yeah. I would even suggest that the promise pierces the veil into pre-mortality. I would suggest that these are the noble and great ones and that this promise is a promise made before this world and then reenthroned in this world and that the expectation and requirement is that it be carried out. When we say why the gathering, the Prophet Joseph said, “The object of the gathering is to build a temple.” That’s the object. Now we can be gathered to stakes and be close to temples. We don’t have to go necessarily to a particular place anymore because wherever we are now gathered in a stake, if we’re close enough to a temple, we’re gathered.

  00:41:52 We can now completely fulfill the Abrahamic covenant in a way that could never have been fulfilled in the entire history of the earth because now what can we do? We can carry out our Abrahamic responsibilities, caring for those in need, fully living the gospel in our own lives, preaching the gospel, inviting all to come into Christ, and uniting families for eternity in holy temples. This idea of why the gathering, we’re not just some church that we’re going to do humanitarian aid, which is great. We’re going to do the work for the salvation and exaltation of every single one of God’s children.

Hank Smith: 00:42:33 Don’t forget the mission statement. This is my work and my glory, to exalt my children. This is the end goal. This is what I’m after.

John Bytheway: 00:42:42 I want to read the Joseph Smith statement because I brought it today because I love it so much. This is Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith page 308. What was the object of gathering the Jews or the people of God in any age of the world? The main object was to build unto the Lord a house whereby he could reveal unto his people the ordinances of his house and the glories of his kingdom and teach the people the way of salvation. For there are certain ordinances and principles that, when they are taught and practiced, must be done in a place or house built for that purpose.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:43:15 On your quote from the Prophet Joseph, which goes with and connects to the Isaiah Chapter 2, 2 Nephi 12, and Micah prophecies about in the latter days, a temple shall be built, the house of the Lord shall be built in the top of the mountains. It says two things are going to happen in that temple. It says, number one, “We’re going to walk in his ways,” and number two, “We’re going to be taught his truth in the temple.” I always like to ask my classes, how is that different than what we do in church? I go to church, I’m taught his ways.

  00:43:44 I go to church, I mean I’m walking in his paths. How is the temple walking in temple paths different than going to church and how it’s being taught there different? If we could explore that for one second because you brought up the Joseph, what we’re going to be taught, the ways of salvation. I would say this, when I go to the temple, once I’ve gone for myself, now I go do proxy work for others and I’m doing vicarious work, I am literally walking in his paths. I am not metaphorically doing it. I’m a little s, savior, Obadiah verse 21, on Mount Zion as I walk in his paths, as I am there for that person and I am performing something that they couldn’t do for themselves, which you cannot do in church and I can’t do it in a soup kitchen. I can’t do it anywhere but in the house of the Lord.

  00:44:35 Number two, I’m taught His ways and I love to talk about the temple, what we wear, the media we listen to, the interaction between people, how we speak to each other, what the purpose and intent is. These are the ways of the Lord. It’s different than the world. It is not of this world. Whenever I draw the diagram of Moses’ tabernacle that he got by revelation in Exodus, I always say, “Why is the holy of holies, the temple proper, has zero boundary with the world?” Have you guys noticed that? The tent around it creates massive space between the tabernacle temple itself and the outer curtain because there’s no touching. The temple itself is not of this world. There’s no border. I find that absolutely amazing. When you said the object is so we can be taught the ways of salvation, we are being taught literally the ways of God and we get the opportunity to imitate him, and the more we imitate him, the more we become like him.

John Bytheway: 00:45:36 I love that. We’re going for someone else. I can’t do that at sacrament meeting. I can’t take the sacrament for someone else, but boy, in the temple, I can do things for my family that have gone before.

Hank Smith: 00:45:50 Yeah, like the Atonement was proxy work for someone else. I am walking in his past. I am doing proxy work for someone else.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:45:58 We’re talking literally go and do vicarious work for other people in imitation of the Lord Jesus Christ and that enables me to become more like him in no other way. When the Isaiah 2 prophecy, Isaiah says, “It shall come to pass in the last days,” he doesn’t even bring up chapels. And I always like to say Joseph Smith never built a chapel in his entire life. He never did, not interested. Not that they’re not important, don’t get me wrong, but he built temples. Isaiah, boom, he sees the temple. Isaiah then says, “I see Zion,” where the Lord is going to go forth from Zion. Then he sees the second coming, then he sees the millennium. And I always like to say, “No temple, no Zion, no Zion, no second coming, no second coming, no millennium.” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has God’s temple which allows us then to create Zion. We cannot create Zion actually without a temple. There’s no way. We can’t be fully united with Jesus Christ and the Father and his servants without a temple.

Hank Smith: 00:47:03 Ross, you’ve opened that up to John and I. It’s not just a temple we go to. It’s a temple we go to and we literally become a savior on Mount Zion. It’s lowercase, like you said, a savior.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:15 Yep. You do something in the temple that you cannot do anywhere else and we learn his ways there. We learn his ways there. There’s a spirit and a glow and the interaction in the temple, the way we speak to each other, how we treat each other, it’s transcendent.

Hank Smith: 00:47:37 There might be those listening who think this is dense material. One thing I would keep in mind is that Mormon says later, “I’m giving you 1% of what Jesus said.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:50 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:47:50 If Mormon decided of the things that I have that Jesus said, this is part of the 1% that I’m going to give, don’t give up on it because it stretches you a little bit. Keep digging, keep looking.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:04 Yeah. I love what you just said and I think that’s 100% true. I always like to challenge a student or a friend to say, “Take 3 Nephi 20, no distractions. Take a half hour, read through it, make notes.” You’re going to feel the Spirit. And you know what? You’re going to get a witness that Jesus is the Christ and that Joseph Smith’s a prophet. That’s what’s going to happen when you take the time to seriously study this. That’s where this is at.

Hank Smith: 00:48:30 I agree with you. Ross, I think in 3 Nephi 20, it’s hard to recognize those Micah references because they’re not marked like the Isaiah and Malachi ones.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:39 And Jesus never says, and Micah said.

Hank Smith: 00:48:41 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:48:42 Yeah, it sounds like some really bad day at the zoo. You’ve got lions running around and sheep tearing things apart. What do we do with that?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:52 Right, right.

John Bytheway: 00:48:53 We appreciate you bringing that down a little bit.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:55 I would hope that within what the Savior is saying, we’re talking about harvesting and gathering his people, and if we, again, frame it with a Deuteronomy Chapter 33, what does Joseph, the wild bullock, have? He has horns. And what does he do with those horns? He’s not goring people. He’s pushing them back to the Savior. That’s the idea and it’s the power of the priesthood, which then connects, if I may, in 3 Nephi 20 and starting in verse 32, he’s going to start quoting Isaiah 52 again. This prophecy that Abinadi quoted at length, “The father hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the earth.” What does that mean? 1 Nephi 22, he is going to bring his covenant back. That’s how he makes bare his arm in the eyes of all the nations. “And all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father and the Father and I are one.”

  00:49:48 Hank, going back to your point about he is now making some very specific distinctions between he and the Father. All the earth shall see the salvation of the Father. It’s the Father’s plan. Preach My Gospel missionaries are really good that it is the Father’s plan and that Jesus came to fulfill all the terms and conditions of the Father’s plan. Verse 36, “And then shall be brought to pass that which is written. Awake, awake again, put on thy strength, O Zion.” Now we’re not talking about Jews anymore. O Zion. “Put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem.” Now we are talking about Jews. In section 113, the Prophet Joseph Smith does a Q&A. What does it mean to put on thy strength? Hold the power of the priesthood, put on the authority of the priesthood. Verse 37, shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down, O Jerusalem, loose thyself from the bands of thy neck.” Again, section 113, return to the Lord, and the curses of God that are upon Israel in their scattered condition.

  00:50:50 And, John, I love what you said, scattered mind and heart, scattered physically. This is them in their scattered condition. And then the prophet Joseph says, “If they will, in fact, loose the bands of the neck and put on the strength of Zion, then God will speak to them,” which is verse 39, 40, 41. We will get revelation, to gather Israel, to care about the one. I was wondering if I could share a story that happened to me when I was a bishop about a particular missionary. I was serving as a bishop in Southern California. I’d sent about 20-plus missionaries out. We got word that one of the missionaries, no one could find him on the mission. No one knew. They didn’t know if he was dead, alive. They didn’t … No one knew. And you can imagine how distressing that would be to the ward, to the family, to the mom, to the dad, and, of course, it was. About two weeks go by, nothing. We don’t know one thing. The missionary department’s upset. You can imagine, it was a Sunday evening. I was at church. The meeting ended. I was going to my bishop’s office and I got a very distinct impression, go get the missionary. I know priesthood government pretty well. A bishop has nothing to do with missionaries. That’s a mission president. The mission president has the priesthood keys for the mission.

  00:52:10 I go to my stake president and my stake president was a man named Robert Reeves, who’s one of the most amazing men. I said, “President, can I share with you something?” I said, “I just got this impression that I’m supposed to go get this missionary.” And he pauses and he looks down, he had a deep voice, he says, “Ross, this is of God.” I go, “Good, glad to hear it.” He goes, “But let’s call the missionary department.” We call the missionary department. Missionary department, of course, knows about this missionary and the missionary department says, “President,” he said, “if you approve it, we feel good about it, but call the mission president.” They’re three hours ahead of us. It was probably 8:00 at night. We called the mission president, told him we talked to the missionary department, and the mission president said, “I am 100% in favor of you coming out here. If you want to do that, you have my blessing.”

  00:52:59 Now I tell that part of the story so that you don’t think I’m some Jason Bourne maverick Bishop running around the church. In other words, I think it’s important to hear that every single priesthood key holder was in line. I called my counselor, James Wilkinson, he was my second counselor, and I said, “James, this is what’s going on. I need you to book some flights.” He calls me back half hour later and he says, “We’re booked out of Ontario Airport in Southern California to this particular place. We’re leaving at noon on Monday.” I was like, “Great.” We get in the plane, we’re flying. He leans over to me and he says, “Bishop, what are we doing?” And I said, “I don’t know.” And he goes, “Not very comforting.” So we land. Mission president picked us up, drove us to the mission home, gave me keys to a mission car, a mission cellphone and a map, and said, “God bless,” and then drove away. And it was James and I in a foreign state that I’ve never been in with a map, a cellphone, and keys.

Hank Smith: 00:54:03 Ross, no one had heard from this missionary.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:54:06 No one. Now it’s two and a half weeks, going on three weeks. I said, “James, we need to pray, brother.” We drove and then we pulled off to the side of the road and we actually put the map on the dash. And we pled with the Lord. We got done and we both stared at the map and we both had this impression. God gave us an impression, “You should go to this town,” two and a half hours away. Now it’s about 7:30, 8:00 at night already in this foreign state. We drive. We get to this little town, it’s now 10:00, 10:30 at night, dark. We get there and we pray. Impression, walk around the town. It’s a little town.

  00:54:49 So I go, “James,” he goes, “I know.” We get out of the car, we just start walking around. We get to this one street and we’re walking down the street and I had this church video moment. I stop dead in my tracks and I go, “He’s in that house right there.” And James goes, “Are you sure?” I said, “Yep, he’s in that house right there.” We go, we knock on the door. It’s 10:30, quarter to 11:00. This woman answers the door and I said, “Hi, my name is Bishop Baron and this is James Wilkinson and we’re here for Elder so-and-so.” And she goes, “I knew you’d come,” and she slams the door. And James looks at me and I’m like, “Whoa, whoa,” okay.

  00:55:29 And probably 15, 30 seconds pass, the door opens. There’s the missionary. Eyes, huge, “Bishop Baron, James, what are you doing here?” I said, “Get out here on the porch.” I said, “I don’t know what you’ve done or what’s going on, but the Lord sent us here and you’re coming back with us.” Lots of crying, weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth. Two and a half hours later, he’s in the car with all his luggage and we’re driving back to the mission home. And the mission president said, “No matter what time it is, if you find him, you call me.”

  00:56:04 Now it’s like 2:00, 2:30 in the morning. We got another two-hour drive. I call the mission president, I got to say something I wanted to say my entire life. I said, “President, the eagle has landed.” We get back to the mission home. We have a flight booked like at 8:30 or 9:00. The mission president gets up, we eat together, he talks to the missionary. We get back on the plane, we fly back. We land back Tuesday at 1:00. Sunday night, the impression came. Monday, we left. Tuesday, we had the missionary back. God spoke to his servants, his weak servants, imperfect servants. Why? Because he loves one missionary and because he cared about that one missionary and that family and those parents who were crying and weeping for their son. That’s the gathering.

Hank Smith: 00:56:55 That’s how the gathering is going to work. Plan on it.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:56:58 He’s going to give his servants, both sisters and elders, men and women who serve in the kingdom, revelation to find the one. Every time I tell the story, I think, “How could that have happened?” That’s impossible. It’s absolutely impossible. That doesn’t happen.

Hank Smith: 00:57:16 Isn’t that verse 39? They shall know that I am he that doth speak.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:22 That’s right. The Lord directed us at every step of the way. Every time I acted, I got more light. Every time I acted, we got more light. And I want to say about my counselor, James Wilkinson, who dropped everything because I called him and said, “Hey, we’re going to go,” and he said, “Yep, done. Done.”

Hank Smith: 00:57:44 And I’m guessing the family said, “How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him that brings good tidings.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:53 And, by the way, verse 40 ultimately about Christ, but we know verse 40 is also about anybody who publishes salvation and peace and says, “Good tidings of good.” It’s a powerful story about the Savior and what he does with those who were willing to listen and willing to act.

John Bytheway: 00:58:13 What I love about that, Ross, is you experienced it. What’s your favorite quotation, Hank, that I think you said?

Hank Smith: 00:58:22 A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an opinion.

John Bytheway: 00:58:28 I’ve loved this. What have we done so far? 3 Nephi 19. This is Jesus’s second day. 3 Nephi 19, what was one sentence for that? Listen to their words. Listen to these prophets that I’ve called. 3 Nephi 20, these different audiences that you talked about in the gathering, that was the remnant and the house of Israel and the Gentiles and my people. Sort those out as you go through that and as you read this, am I on track?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:58:57 And the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant.

John Bytheway: 00:59:00 We’re going to bless all the families of the earth and we’ve got to gather to do that and then we’re coming into 21.

Hank Smith: 00:59:06 Ross, we’re not talking about the Lord starting the gathering here in 3 Nephi 20. No, this is a future gathering that he’s telling them about which should clue you into why Mormon put it in the book.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:59:18 Exactly. And if I may, still in 3 Nephi 20, if you go and he says, starting in 43 talking about the Savior, “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently. He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. As many were astonished at thee, his visage was so marred more than any man,” referring back to Isaiah 53, “his form more than the sons of men.” This is all Isaiah 52, by the way. “So shall he sprinkle many nations.” Now, on sprinkle, you might want to make a note that in the Joseph Smith translation for Isaiah 52 there, it’s, “So shall he gather many nations.” Sprinkle is gather. I think that’s the really important thing.

  00:59:58 Then we move into 3 Nephi 21 and I love that we’re going to get a sign. Verily, I say unto you,” verse 1, “I give unto you a sign so that you’re going to know when,” this is your point, Hank, this is a future thing. I’m giving unto you guys a sign. When the Gentiles bring forth this book, you’re going to know what’s going on. What is the sign going to be? The sign is going to be the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. What I’d like to do here is connect this concept of sign. All through time, the Lord gives signs. There’s those who think, “If I see a sign, I’ll believe,” and then there’s the God process, which is, “If I believe, then signs follow.” That’s Mark 16.

  01:00:43 In the case of this, when Jesus shows up in 3 Nephi 11, I’m backtracking a little bit to give it some context, they hear the voice of the Father, they hear the voice of the Son as he introduces himself. The people throw themselves down on the ground, but that’s not good enough. He requires them to come forth and feel the nail prints in his hands and in his feet because those are the tokens and signs so that they’ll know that he is the true messenger of the Father and they cannot be deceived. They will have felt the nail prints. It’s not a spirit like in Luke Chapter 24, 36 through 39, they thought they had seen a spirit, but he said, “Handle me and see for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” That was their sign.

  01:01:28 Then he’s saying, “Okay, latter days, we’re going to start to gather Israel again. We’re going to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. It’s going to be fulfilled.” How are you going to know? I’m going to bring forth the Book of Mormon. I’m going to bring forth this text, that will be a sign unto you. I served in Argentina and what we do is we go and we talk to people. Every single person wants to know, how do we know you are true messengers? And what do we say? We’re going to give unto you a sign that’s going to allow you to know that we and Joseph are true messengers, and that’s the sign, that’s the Book of Mormon, which is palpable and they can have that experience with God.

  01:02:09 I personally think that is one of the most exciting things and that’s why every prophet emphasizes that the tool of the gathering is the Book of Mormon because it allows us to answer that question, what’s the greatest evidence that Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son in the sacred grove? The truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. That is the greatest evidence. This idea of a sign, show me a sign, is us being able to say, “Okay, here is the Book of Mormon verse 7, “And when these things come,” I’m in Chapter 21, “that thy seed shall begin to know these things, it shall be a sign unto them that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant, which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel,” all over.

  01:02:52 And then it immediately talks about what you talked about when you called, John, your marvelous horse in verse 9. And then verse 10, “But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand.” Who we talking about? The Prophet Joseph. “Therefore, they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them.” The end of 20, we were talking about the Savior. Now we’re talking about the servant in the latter days, who will be an instrument in the hands of God. Verse 11, “Therefore, it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him,” Joseph, “to bring forth unto the Gentiles and shall give unto him,” Joseph, “power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles. They shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.”

  01:03:38 So the whole people. Then from verse 12 to verse 18, he will quote Micah again, essentially saying similar things. We’re going to gather. It’s going to be a threshing. It’s going to be a dividing. Not a violent dividing, but a dividing of those who will come into the fold and who will allow themselves to hear the word of God. But be clear. He will, among the Gentiles, cut off their horses, their chariots, their cities, their strongholds, their witchcrafts, their soothsayers, their graven images, their standing images, the works, their hands, their groves, and their cities so that all deceivings, lyings, envyings, strifes, crafts, and whoredoms will be done away.

  01:04:20 Now, that’s not going to 100% happen, of course, until the second coming in the millennium, but the work of the gathering is this process of gathering and sifting and him, going back to 3 Nephi 20, gathering his sheaves unto the floor. This 3 Nephi 21 is this powerful chapter about that going on and about him gathering his people again and commencing the work of the Father. 21 follows 20 in a powerful way but adds to the idea of the various people being gathered in.

Hank Smith: 01:04:52 And the Book of Mormon being the tool.