John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Matt Townsend, 3 Nephi 17-19.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Matt, I noticed the phrase that comes up frequently 3 Nephi 11, and here again, 3 Nephi 21, “One by one.” That we have a Savior who is very focused on individuals. Matt, in your work, it seems at least in my own family, that if I try to teach my children all the same, doesn’t work. It worked on the first one. Why is this not working on the second one? Or my students even or co-workers. What is the Savior maybe trying to teach or what is he like when he does this one-by-one ministering? It’s not really a drive-by, let me get everybody.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 00:48 No, which tells us it’s not a list, it’s not a requirement, it’s a development, it’s a becoming. It has to be individually sculpted and tutored to the needs of the learner. What I think there is about that, there must be some eternal principle about the intelligence one-by-one, and the power of if we’re all going to kneel individually, then that kneeling individually is the one-by-one. What I think it also delineates is that we aren’t just a group of people. There are no mere mortals. We are these eternal beings with the potential to create infinite life and opportunity. There’s something about seeing the individual nature of every person and being willing to individually work with each person. That is part of the eternal progression that needs to be done. I don’t think we can do it in group or in sync.

Hank Smith: 01:50 And the danger comes when we generalize, when we put everybody in a category, all women are this way, all men are this way, all political party this way or that way.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 02:00 Yeah. It’s not real and what it also does is it short-circuits the individual relationship and it short-circuits our need to actually think and to customize and to adapt and to be dynamic. There’s that quote by Elder Talmage that says, “A lot of us think that someday the Lord will just put his hands on our head and ordain us to be Gods.” But he says, “That can’t be further from the truth. Everything we need to be a God is already in us and we’re now in the process with our God of bringing that to fruition.”

John Bytheway: 02:34 When I think of the one-by-one nature of how God wants to work with us, one of the things that’s so remarkable to me is the Temple, because it’s like this impossible job. “Find the name of every person who has ever lived on the earth and by proxy, make sure they are baptized, confirmed, married.” I mean-

Dr. Matt Townsend: 02:52 Yeah, it’s big.

John Bytheway: 02:53 Excuse me? How are we going to do that?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 02:56 I can’t even make my phone work.

John Bytheway: 02:58 Yeah. Every person I’ve done a name for has a story and it’s so fun to think about that. I was sitting in the Marriott Center once and I was an Elders Quorum presidency at the Riviera of BYU and Elder Maxwell came to speak. I wrote this as fast as I could in my Franklin planner because he said something I’d never heard. He said that the macro plan of salvation is composed of billions of micro plans and they’re managed by our Heavenly Father and his remarkable Son, who in the Acme of understatement said, “I am able to do my work.” And I’d never forgotten this idea of we each have a micro plan of salvation. What a fascinating thought for this one-by-one idea.

Hank Smith: 03:45 So good. Matt, chapter 17 closes with this phrase from the Savior, “Behold your little ones” and then all Heaven breaks loose, angels descending out of Heaven and circling with fire. Angels ministering. Any thoughts here before we go on to 18?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 04:08 Maybe he’s just like you know as a speaker, you just bring it. There’s a certain time you bring it. You bring the audiovisuals, you bring right slide. And what I think is the most beautiful, “Behold your little ones,” he’s bringing down Heaven to be encircled around these little ones. We’ve all lost family, we’ve lost people that are on the other side of the veil. As you sit and struggle with, “How am I going to make it through this world and how am I going to always remember the Savior?” Maybe what we could also do is remember those that have gone before, they’re still praying for our little ones. I want you to now watch what God does for your little ones that you probably aren’t even aware of, but he’s got the ministering angels circling around them. There’s fire, there’s love. Both sides of the veil are working this moment, even while most of us sit there not even knowing half the time what’s going on.

Hank Smith: 05:04 I wonder, wouldn’t it be wonderful if this was… And this is just chapter one verse one, wouldn’t this be wonderful if this was some of the ancestors they lost in the destruction? Wouldn’t that be great?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 05:17 They didn’t make it to be there, but they got to come back to witness it. That’s power, which tells us again the story of the family. This is a family on both sides of the veil, we’re still a family. John brought up a great point that they’re numbered. There’s 2,500 souls and they did consist of men, women, and children. They’re numbered. God knows exactly who’s there.

John Bytheway: 05:48 One of the phrases I have underlined in verse 25 is, “Every man for himself, they did see, they did hear, they did bear record.” Everyone knew for themselves. I think of Joseph Smith, “I’ve learned for myself.” Here it is every single one of them knows.

Hank Smith: 06:07 Matt, so far I have learned and learned and learned. I’ve learned what tears are, I’ve learned how to use my agency better, I’ve learned to be more attuned, I’ve learned-

John Bytheway: 06:17 Bids and turns.

Hank Smith: 06:18 Yeah, bids and turns. To listen. I’m excited for more. Let’s go on to chapter 18.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 06:25 Yes. By the way, we’re still day one. We’re still pushing through day one. He’s going to institute the sacrament here. I think it’s powerful to notice that if what he wants to create are these connected attuning, one-on-one moments, what he might want is a ritual, a ritual that we could use to help us to consistently, methodically connect back in and renew our covenant. Interestingly, he’s introducing the sacrament before they’re baptized. We always know it as tied to the Baptism and there’s something that in his mind that maybe he’s having them tie this sacrament to what they all just went through as they’re now starting to deepen and deepen that connection to him. The power would be that if we could actually take the sacrament but then have the spiritual attuning that they had, that would be a really cool combination. Sometimes we might get methodical about the sacrament. We show up late, we’re running late, we’re struggling to get through it, that we want to make sure we do it with the right spirit, the spirit that we had modeled in 3 Nephi 17. In 3 Nephi 18 verse one, “It came to pass, Jesus commanded his disciples that they should bring forth some bread and wine unto him. And while they were gone for the bread and wine, He commanded the multitude that they should sit themselves down on the earth.” And by the way, there’s this great thought by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland from the talk Behold the Lamb of God, where he says, “When the sacred hour comes to present our sacrificial gift to the Lord, we do have our own sins and shortcomings to resolve. That’s why we’re there. But we might be more successful in such contrition if we are mindful of the other broken hearts and sorrowing spirits that surround us. Seated not far away are some who may have wept outwardly or inwardly through the entire sacramental hymn and the prayers of those priests.”

  08:38 “Might we silently take note of that and offer our little crust of comfort and our tiny cup of compassion, might we dedicate it to them or to the weeping struggling member who is not in the service and except for some redemptive ministering on our part won’t be there next week either, or to our brothers and sisters who are not members of the church at all but are our brothers and sisters. There is no shortage of suffering in this world inside this church and out. So look in any direction and you’ll find someone whose pain seems heavy to bear and whose heartache seems never to end. One way to always remember Him would be to join the great physician in his never-ending task of lifting the load from those who are burdened and relieving the pain of those who are distraught. Just as the Savior had everyone sit while they were waiting for the bread to be brought, when we get there, we can go early, we can sit, and we can think of others, and think of the people that are weeping that need this love from us, that need this support.”

  09:51 And I call that turning our arrows out to those that need it. A lot of times we turn our arrows in, “Why is this happening? Why are the kids late? Why is my son passing the Sacrament without a belt?” And my mind gets in all these different places, but what he’s asking us to do is to create space, a moment in our spirit where we can actually let the Lord in and love and serve others as we do it.

John Bytheway: 10:16 Explain that arrows in, like you’re pointing at yourself you mean? Like arrows? Like, “What about me?”

Dr. Matt Townsend: 10:22 In the Gospel where we’re all worried about if we are going to make it, we’re turning our arrows in and we’re self-evaluating constantly. “Am I good enough? What about me? Why didn’t I get the calling? Why do I have to do this job?” Instead of turning the arrows out and thinking, “What does the Father need me to do?” Or, “What does the Savior, what would he have me do? What do I see in the eyes and the face of the lady I’m ministering to?” By having our arrows a little more directed out, it actually gives us a different perspective than just how everything impacts me, selflessness.

Hank Smith: 10:57 I’d love for you to comment on this. It seems that the Savior is instituting this sacrament as a group ritual. This is something you’re supposed to do together. We’re going to get that again in the Book of Moroni. What is it about community ritual? I’m acting like you’re an expert in all things, which I think you are. You’ve seen that work in relationship.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 11:21 After 9/11, nothing was probably more powerful than a flag ceremony. I was a Cub leader. It was an incredible moment where we were retiring a flag and we had gathered our entire ward to retire this flag, and the fire department came and it was after 9/11, and that ritual of a simple flag ceremony, the national anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance, brought a sense of spirit and community to everyone. And there’s great research on rituals creating a sense of oneness and togetherness. And the powerful thing about a ritual by the way, is we know how they begin and we know how they end, and we know when it’s done, and we know what we’re supposed to do, and they’re sacred.

  12:12 There is incredible research that shows when we tie ourselves to our rituals, whether in our marriage or in our family or in our church or in our country, we create stronger ties and bind us tighter together as we keep re-instituting the ritual. But it is interesting that the ritual wasn’t for me to worry about my salvation, it was a community thing where if we’re going to be Zion, we have to be one, which means I should spend some time thinking about the people around me during those meetings and I should make sure I’m giving them the opportunity to be there.

Hank Smith: 12:52 Great book, The Power of Ritual back in 2020. This author, Casper ter Kuile, tapped into something that we’re being taught here in the Book of Mormon, the power of ritual. I have a quote from that book. “The longer you perform a ritual, the more power it garners from the act, from the faith, from the feeling. Ritual is the act of a sanctifying action, even ordinary action that has meaning. I can light a candle because I need the light or because the candle represents the light I need. The power of ritual lies in its ability to connect us with the divine.” Something that, here’s a book published in 2020, bestseller, and here it is in 3 Nephi 18. Isn’t that powerful?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 13:40 It’s also symbolic of the tree of life that we’re going to kneel down, 1 Nephi 8:30, “And they did press their way forward continually holding fast to the rod of iron until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.” The people that fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree were the ones that persisted, the ones that lasted. To partake means to take part, portion, or share in common with others according to the Webster’s dictionary in 1828. Partaking is a communal act as part of a group, one shared thing in common with others in the group. That’s why again, in Moroni, we’re taught to gather together often to partake of bread and wine and in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.

Hank Smith: 14:32 Not just connects us with Jesus but connects us to each other.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 14:36 To each other, which is Zion. We’re building this relationship with each other. And if we can build the relationship with each other, then I will treat you better, you treat me better. And if we treat each other better, we will actually have less problems. We’ll have less sin, we’ll have less affliction, we’ll have fewer problems if we could just be one.

Hank Smith: 15:00 Another quote from the book The Power of Ritual. I’ll stop with this one, but just one more. It says, “In community ritual, we can be freed of our isolationist perspective. For a brief period of time, the lie,” L-I-E, “of our separateness is exposed, and we remember that we are wholly connected to one another.” And then this great statement, “It’s not that our individuality disappears, but that we are no longer blinded by our individualism.”

Dr. Matt Townsend: 15:32 Love that.

Hank Smith: 15:33 Don’t you love the Savior said, “I want you to remember this moment, but I want you to remember it together?”

Dr. Matt Townsend: 15:40 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 15:40 I’m glad you’re talking about this. I think all of us during the pandemic, when we couldn’t gather and couldn’t do this together, I remember the joy I felt when we were able to go back to the chapel and do this again. I thought, “I wonder if some people are going to think, ‘Let’s do this church thing at home.'” But wait, the sacrament is the central reason we’re gathering. And then like you mentioned, Hank, in Moroni, “Ye shall meet together oft.” It’s all of us. Didn’t you guys feel a joy when you could gather again?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 16:16 It did create a loneliness epidemic. There’s a big impact, and the researchers even at BYU are finding out the impact loneliness has on our lives, where if you feel lonely or you actually are lonely, it is the equivalent of smoking about 15 cigarettes a day to your health. It’s not good that man should be alone. We need community.

  16:42 By the way, again back to the cyber-toothed tiger, it’s keeping a lot of us from connecting. Even though we’re so connected, we’re not connecting. They say, and I don’t know if it’s tongue in cheek or not, but some of the younger generations are more adept at recognizing the right emoji to use than they are the right facial expression. We need interaction. We need interface.

  17:11 That’s why the family model of the plan of salvation is the truest model in my eyes because it’s about family. It’s not about cleaning. It’s not about cleaning us. It’s not just about judging us. It’s not just about educating us. It’s about family. We’re going to go home as a family and we have to know how to deal with each other and be and connect with each other.

  17:39 In verse three, “When the disciples had come with the bread and wine, He took the bread and break it and blessed it and gave unto the disciples and commanded that they should eat. And when they had eaten, they were filled.” They were filled. “He commanded that they should go then give to the multitude. When the multitude had eaten and were filled…” Is he just trying to fill their belly or is he trying to fill them with the Spirit?

  18:06 I went and looked up filled in the Oxford Dictionary. These are some acronyms of the word to fill: to become full or almost full, to occupy all of, to supply, to furnish, to provide, to replenish, to restock, to close the gap, to become an overwhelming presence in, to pervade, to saturate, to perfuse, to infuse, to imbue, to satisfy. They were, I believe, filled with the Spirit.

  18:42 As a bishop, I would have all my YSAs ask me, “Well, how long do I need to read to constitute reading the Scriptures?” And I would be like, “What?”

John Bytheway: 18:55 Get a stopwatch out.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 18:57 Yeah. “Oh, it’s 72 minutes.” I’d always say, “Oh, no. Just read until you feel the Spirit, then decide what to do.” And they would look at me like, “Well, that could take all day.” I think our goal is to try to direct all of us to get good at the science of the spirit, the spiritual side of this, the feeling something and then being filled by the Spirit, and then letting it dictate the next step. As an EMT, I would always do this little test, and you saw the Savior do it when he was getting real with the people. As an EMT, we would always check the vitals before we would treat, because we wouldn’t know how exactly to treat you until we’ve checked. We check and we treat, and we check and we treat. And we’re checking for the Spirit, and then we do what we can to do more to create the Spirit. And then we check to see how it’s going, and then we treat. It’s the iterative process of relating through the Spirit that I think is what we all need to be learning here. And when I see that they were partaking of the sacrament until they were filled, that changes for me. I now know I need to focus way more spiritually when I’m in that room until I can feel something powerful happening. And again, it might not happen every time. I’m not saying that that’s what it has to do. I’m just saying the minute we feel the Spirit, and there’s a great quote by Elder Eyring that says, “When you feel the Holy Ghost, it’s a witness that the atonement is working in your life.” That’s what we’re looking for is not the list and not the event and not just being there, but actually being changed as we’re there.

  20:52 That’s verse seven, “If you do always remember me, you shall have my Spirit to be with you.” And if you combine that with that Elder Eyring quote, “If you do always remember me, you can know that the atonement is working in your life.”

Dr. Matt Townsend: 21:07 Isn’t that powerful? When it’s working in your life, what I believe it’s doing is it’s changing you. All the gifts of the Spirit come through the Spirit. All the attributes of Christ come through that Spirit. Literally, line upon line, it’s working on us. And it’s bearing witness that, I think it’s opening the heavens. It’s God testifying. “I got you. We’re good. I got you. We’re good.”

  21:32 Verse 10, it says, “And when the disciples have done this, Jesus said unto them, ‘Blessed are you for this thing which ye have done, for this is fulfilling my commandments and this doth witness unto the Father that ye are willing to do that which I have commanded you. And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name and you shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that you may witness unto the Father that you do always remember me. And if you do always remember me, ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.'”

  22:05 President Nelson says, “Faith in Jesus Christ is the foundation of all belief and the conduit of divine power. Every good in life, every potential blessing of eternal significance begins with faith. Faith in Jesus Christ is the greatest power available to us in this life. All things are possible to them that believe.”

John Bytheway: 22:28 Matt, thank you for reading verse 10, “This doth witness unto the Father that you are willing.” I am so glad for that word choice. It doesn’t say, “This doth witness unto the Father that you are able to take His name upon you, that you’re able to keep His commandments which he has given you,” because we’re not. But we can be willing. The Lord is so merciful that He says, “Come back next week. We’re going to do this again.”

  22:53 As long as you’re willing, keep coming back to the sacrament table. We can look in the chapel and see a visual aid of the Savior’s mercy. It’s that table that’s bolted to the floor. We don’t wheel it in out of a storage room on Christmas and Easter. It’s there every week and the Lord says, “Come back.” And you have to be willing, because you’re not able. But if you can be willing…

  23:17 The other thing I love about this is the question in 17 was, “Would you please stay?,” 3 Nephi 17. And this is my simple mind looking at it. And here’s Jesus saying, “I can’t stay, but here’s how you can always have my Spirit to be with you-“

Dr. Matt Townsend: 23:30 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 23:30 … and institutes the sacrament.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 23:32 And have everything I’ve got that you are willing to receive. That willing, again, He will give us everything that we are willing to receive. That means we again need to be present and intentional and exercising our agency to try a little harder, do a little more, be a little more willing.

Hank Smith: 23:54 Speaking of the cyber-toothed tiger, on my little Instagram account that I have, I asked, ” What do you do to make the 10 to 15 minutes of the sacrament a sweet, powerful experience?” And I got a lot of great answers. One woman said, “Try to really just be in the moment, all of me.” And you mentioned that earlier, Matt. Another person said, “I have a better sacrament experience when on Sunday morning before church, I intentionally asked Heavenly Father to help me feel his love during the sacrament.” Another person said, “I try to practice gratitude during the sacrament. I literally picture the sacrament table,” John, you just mentioned this, “as Christ’s body being covered.” “I read the words of the sacrament hymn.” “Sacrament is my personal appointment with the Savior.” Someone else says, “I recite in my mind the words of the Living Christ I memorized years ago.”

  24:49 There are a lot of ways to make the sacrament special. But Matt, it’s not going to be special if you show up.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 24:55 You got to show up, sit down, get centered. One thing I like to do and I teach the people I’m coaching as they’re dealing with their trials, I have them try to relive 3 Nephi 17 while they’re in the sacrament, where they take their challenge, their son that left the church and is not talking to the family for the last six months. I want them to imagine themselves sitting there with the Savior when He calls them over and when he’s one-on-one with them. And I want them to imagine what He would do to the mother of that child and what He would say to that mother. But I want them to visually imagine being in the moment with the Savior. I have them recognize Him and remember Him until they feel the Spirit, I say, which is be filled with that spirit. And as they’re imagining Him basically ministering to them, ask him what would he have you do? And whatever He would have you do for your son that isn’t talking to you anymore, let that be the commandment that you keep. Whatever comes to your heart and your mind about your child in that moment, let that be the commandment that you keep. And if you keep the commandment He gives you, and it might be just keep writing him letters that you can give him someday, whatever the Savior is telling you to do, do that one thing, and then let that be the commandment. And if you keep the commandment He gives you, you’ll have His Spirit to be with you. Feel the Spirit.

  26:38 And I teach that as a protocol that they can do every day, 10 times a day, with their dad that’s just gone to surgery and you’re afraid you’re going to lose him, or with the wife that’s thinking of leaving her husband, or with the child that got in trouble with her boyfriend and now feels like she’s not good enough. Each one of those, we could get very real in the sacrament and feel that moment.

Hank Smith: 27:05 And in that moment, I can’t see the Savior saying, “Go chew them out. That’s what I want you to do. Go get them, or just sit in the peace of it.”

John Bytheway: 27:14 I want to give a shout-out to young parents because I remember having these lofty goals about how I’m going to be centered and ponder. And instead, I’m scooping up Cheerios and Legos off the floor and, “You be quiet,” and doing all that stuff-

Hank Smith: 27:36 Stop touching me.

John Bytheway: 27:36 … with kids.

Hank Smith: 27:37 Yeah. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 27:38 You could actually entertain the thought, “Maybe I’ll just wait until these kids are older and then come back to church.” But that’s such a horrible slippery slope. So those moms and dads out there, I see them come to stake conference, which is like, ugh.

Hank Smith: 27:53 That’s amazing. It is.

John Bytheway: 27:54 Sit with all your kids in the gym and try that for two hours on a hard folding chair. Bless you for being willing to show the Savior, for being willing to come during that tough time.

Hank Smith: 28:10 John, I love that. Back to my little Instagram post, Ashley said the exact same thing. She said, “With young children, I’m just grateful I can be present at all.”

John Bytheway: 28:20 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 28:21 “Amidst the chaos and the overwhelming trying to help little children learn to be reverent, someday I’ll be able to focus on and appreciate the ordinance in ways I would prefer. Until then, showing up is good enough.”

John Bytheway: 28:35 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 28:35 Showing up. John, I’m so glad you said that.

John Bytheway: 28:38 Jesus wanted those little children there, and that helps. But I see those parents and I remember those days, and I think, “Just bless you for being willing to come.” And sometimes, I’ve seen a wonderful soul or sometimes even my wife jump up and help somebody else, a child, during that time.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 28:58 In every one of my trials like that, I remember that. I remember that vividly. Why are we here? What are we doing? This is crazy.

  29:05 3 Nephi 17 changed me so much and it made my Savior so much more real to me. I see the Savior as somebody that’s so real that if He appeared in church and was sitting on my row and saw what my kids were doing, He wouldn’t discipline them. He’d intervene somehow. But if I looked at Him and He looked at me, He would give me that look that, “You’re doing great. You’re doing great.”

  29:42 And that’s all I need to remember is He’s seeing it. But if He were there, He would connect to me, He would attune to me, He would look me in the eye, and He would validate and help me. And He might intervene with the kids. That’d be great. And they still probably wouldn’t be quiet for him.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 30:00 Because that’s just how they are, but what he would do is he would change my heart just by simply remembering him. I had a mother and her daughter in my office that have a really big argument that they’re going through with each other and the daughter doesn’t like what the mother’s doing and the mother doesn’t like what the daughter’s doing, and now the daughter and the father are siding with each other. As they are arguing about all the stuff that’s not the real issue, I just stopped them and I said, “Okay, stop for a second. If the Savior just walked in the door and sat down right here, what would we then say?” And you would not believe how fast the spirit changed in the room. I didn’t say another word. They just said, “Well, I’m sorry,” and then they both got emotional and they both apologized and they both healed.

  30:59 What’s funny about it is I didn’t have to do anything but just help remembering. I just invited their agency to act and you could see how willing their spirits were because they grabbed it and they just did it. That’s the healing that this brings, and in fact, in 3 Nephi 18:19, we’re told, “Therefore, you must always pray unto the Father in my name and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, which is right, believing that you shall receive behold it shall be given unto you.” I found this story. I was trying to get deeper and better in my praying. I had listened to Bob Millet and read a bunch of stuff he was teaching about the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. I was buying books online and I got prompted to buy this book by Paul Miller called The Praying Life: Christ is the Source of our Joy, in the Name of Christ is Joy Found. Not a member of our faith, knew nothing about him.

  31:59 I just kept feeling this prompting. I bought it. I started listening to another book I had bought, but I had accidentally started playing this book. Without knowing it, I was getting the teachings of this book I didn’t even know for sure I had bought it. I thought I was listening to another book. That’s how good I am at technology. But this is the story that he says and I’ll give you the quote first and then I’ll tell you the story, but he says, “Asking in Jesus’ name isn’t another thing I have to get right so my prayers are perfect. It is one more gift of God because my prayers are so imperfect.” So here’s the story. “Imagine that your prayer is a poorly dressed beggar, reeking of alcohol and body odor stumbling toward the palace of the great king. You have become your prayer.

  32:58 As you shuffle toward the barred gate, the guards stiffen. Your smell has preceded you. You stammer out a message for the king. “I want to see the king.” Your words are barely intelligible, but you whisper on the final word, “Jesus. I come in the name of Jesus.” At that name of Jesus as if by magic, the palace comes alive. The guards snap to attention, bowing low in front of you, lights come on, the doors fly open. And you are ushered into the palace and down a long hallway into the throne room of the great king who comes running to you and wraps you in his arms, “In the name of Jesus” gives my prayers royal access.

  33:48 They get through. Jesus isn’t the savior of my soul. He’s also the savior of my prayers. My prayers come before the throne of God as the prayers of Jesus. Asking in Jesus’ name isn’t another thing I have to get right so my prayers are perfect. It is one more gift of God because my prayers are so imperfect. Jesus’ seal not only guarantees that my package gets through, but it also transforms the package. Paul says in Romans 8-26, the Spirit helps us in our weakness for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with gleanings too deep for words.”

John Bytheway: 34:33 That is so good.

Hank Smith: 34:35 That is fun.

John Bytheway: 34:36 In our priesthood meeting this last Sunday, we just went through Elder Holland’s talk about prayer. He footnoted that verse, Elder Holland, that Romans 8-26. You said, “Gleanings, which…”

Dr. Matt Townsend: 34:49 Yeah. “For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with gleanings too deep for words.”

John Bytheway: 34:59 Gleanings too deep for words. The King James says, “With groanings which cannot be uttered,” it’s like you have help even if all you can do is get on your knees to go, “Ugh.”

Dr. Matt Townsend: 35:11 Yeah, and he groaned within himself. Remember that Savior, so powerful. A few other quotes that he talks about prayer the same Paul Miller, he says, “Prayer is asking God to incarnate, to get dirty in your life. Yes, the eternal God scrubs floors. For sure we know he washes feet, so take Jesus at his word. Ask him, tell him what you want. Get dirty. Don’t mindlessly drift through life on the American narcotic of busyness. If you try to seize the day, the day will eventually break you. Seize the corner of his garment and don’t let go until he blesses you. He will reshape the day.”

John Bytheway: 35:56 Okay, you sold me. What’s the name of that book?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 36:00 It’s a really good book. It’s Paul Miller, The Praying Life: Christ is the Source of our Joy.

John Bytheway: 36:07 That’s beautiful.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 36:09 Isn’t that amazing?

John Bytheway: 36:10 I’m thinking of some of those titles of the Savior. I’m your advocate. I’m your mediator. I’m your intercessor, and that’s why we pray in his name.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 36:22 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 36:23 It’s powerful. Just got to get out of the way. In a talk that Elder Bednar gave back in 2008, he talked about the phrase praying always, which comes up in verse 15, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, you must watch and pray always,” which seems like a very difficult thing to do, to pray always. You’re like, “Well, I have to drive to work. I have to teach.” In this talk, Elder Bednar said, when you look at the story of the creation, especially in the temple, you’ll see that the Lord creates things spiritually and then physically or spiritual then temporal. He says, “In a similar way, meaningful morning prayer is an element of spiritual creation.” Think about your experience in the temple right?

  37:07 This is what I’m going to do. “Just as the temporal creation was linked to and a continuation of the spiritual creation, so meaningful morning and evening prayers are linked and a continuation of each other.” So he says to create your day spiritually, then return at the end of the day and report and see where you went right and where you went wrong. Matt, verse 21 says, “Pray in your families.” I would like to ask you how you’ve seen prayer help couples and families, praying together. Does the couple that pray together stay together? Is that…

Dr. Matt Townsend: 37:45 Yes, that’s another marital ritual. Do you remember when the Savior was praying to the Father in our behalf? It’s so moving to us. It’s also just as moving when the husband is praying for his wife to the Father, talking about her needs and understanding her life, and he’s bidding in the name of Christ for his spouse. It’s a powerful way to create a connection with your partner. So remember, when words don’t work, we can bless the children. We can still pray for our spouses. We can still serve him and love him and care for them. We can bless the sick and afflicted and as we’re praying for them, we can also show a level of closeness. Have you ever done one of those activities where you get to introduce somebody at a convention and you have to learn a lot about them to make it a sincere introduction?

  38:45 Well, if we have to pray in behalf of our spouse, we have to know what their needs are, know what their wants are, know what their fears are. The powerful way to overcome all that attachment stuff that we were talking about earlier, one of the most powerful ways to do that is be vulnerable, and if we can learn to be vulnerable in our prayers with each other, it breaks down so many barriers. It might be easier for me to pray for my wife than for me to be even fully open to her face-to-face because I have the support of the Heavenly Father and I’m not necessarily looking at her because that might be harder for me. It might make me vulnerable. So use your prayers as a way to be vulnerable. In fact, that is one thing that Paul Miller was talking about is bring to God your biggest insecurities and inadequacies that you know you can’t solve, and bear some of those out in your prayers with your wife.

  39:50 Be honest with God with your wife or your husband, your partner or your family. If you just blew up and got really mad at everyone in the family, maybe having a family prayer that night is the fastest way to be real and say, “Heavenly Father, I need help with my temper. I don’t know how to overcome this,” and it might be a safe way to start talking about stuff. It’s a ritual that if we do consistently morning and evening and we counsel with God when we go to bed and we wake up with God when we get going, it’s a powerful routine that I think could habitualize a lot of righteousness, a lot of traditions that are good.

Hank Smith: 40:30 That’s interesting because if I were to get upset with my family, I would not want to be the one to say the prayer right? I’d say, “Well, someone else say the prayer.” Let them say it.

John Bytheway: 40:40 I’m thinking of my own father that didn’t grow up in a family where you look at people and say, “I love you.” He joined the church when he was 24. Over time, he could say that in his prayers, and it was always really cool to hear dad talk to us in his prayers because it was too hard face to face.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 41:02 That’s interesting.

John Bytheway: 41:03 Just the idea of someone praying for us and hearing that if they can’t do it face-to-face, but wow, what a message to hear that.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 41:11 Yeah. There is some really interesting research about how men and women communicate differently. You guys may not believe this, but we have different goals. Deborah Tannen wrote a book called You Just Don’t Understand.

John Bytheway: 41:25 You Just Don’t Understand.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 41:27 Yeah, you know it. She talks about the differences and one of the differences she brings up is… and she’s a linguist, so she just studied the sentences that we formulate and the sentences tell us what our goals are, how we formulate our sentences shows our goals, and one of the things that she points out is when the female is talking, statistically she’s way more inclined to see it as a bonding function, so she’s talking to bond and the secondary goal is data transfer in the conversation. The data, the facts aren’t as important as the bond, but what Deborah found with the men is the data is actually more important, which is weird, which is why we get hung up on what you said like you did, “No, you actually said park on the north side of the building, but there is no north side, so there’s no parking over there. So I don’t know what you were talking about, but that’s why I’m late.”

  42:18 And then we get into this weird fight about being late, but the secondary goal she found is that when men are communicating our hierarchy or our status is more involved. We don’t want to talk if it’s going to lower our hierarchy, but that might be why prayers work for some of us guys because we’re talking to the highest of them all. My hierarchy is already low. I can maybe be more honest in my prayer because I’m less vulnerable. The other thing that’s interesting that she showed is a lot of times that men tend to bond in action, which is maybe why one of the reasons why the priesthood is in our hands is because the priesthood is the power to act, and by us acting and utilizing our priesthood, we bond. It may not be that we’re the most emotionally together.

  43:15 That may not be why we have the priesthood, and it might be not be that we’re the best communicators. It might not be that. It just might be because that’s how we bond. I’ve never felt closer to a ward than when I had to do tithing settlement and I got the blessing to sit with each one of the members of the ward. That’s empowering. Or when I get to close every window after Sunday and make sure the building’s locked up, that bonds me to the church and to the kingdoms. Some of these activities like praying, like exercising our priesthood are very, very powerful. In fact, let me do one more thing. In verse 24, we are told that we are to hold up your light, that it may shine unto the world. “Behold, I am the light, which ye should hold up, that which ye have seen me do. Behold, ye see that I have prayed unto the Father and ye all have witnessed.”

  44:11 We are told to hold up the light, to bring the light and to share the light and to show the light. I wanted to share one story that Elder Steven Lund shared in General Conference. He’s the General Young Men’s president and he talked about finding joy. This goes deep into the content and concept of joy. He brings up an incredible story about his son who let his light shine and also felt incredible joy in the midst of a trial. He said “The surest way to find joy in this life is to join Christ in helping others. A lesson his young son, Tanner, had taught him through his perfect example. A few years ago, our little family went through what many families face in the fallen world. Our youngest son, Tanner Christian contracted cancer.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 45:01 He was an incredible soul, as nine-year-olds tend to be. He was hilariously mischievous and at the same time, stunningly spiritually aware. Imp and angel. Naughty and nice. When he was little and was everyday bewildering us with his shenanigans, we wondered if he was going to grow up to be a prophet or a bank robber. And then he became desperately ill. Over the next three years, modern medicine employed heroic measures including two bone marrow transplants where he caught pneumonia, requiring him to spend 10 weeks unconscious on a ventilator. Miraculously, he recovered for a short time, but then his cancer returned. Shortly before he passed away, Tanner’s disease had invaded his bones and even with strong pain medicines still he hurt. He could barely get out of bed.

  45:55 One Sunday morning, his mom, Colleen, came into his room to check on him before the family left for church. She was surprised to see that he had somehow gotten himself dressed and was sitting on the edge of his bed, painfully struggling to button his shirt. Colleen sat down by him, “Tanner,” she said, “Are you sure you are strong enough to go to church? Maybe you should stay home and rest today.” He stared at the floor. He was a deacon. He had a quorum. He had an assignment. “I’m supposed to pass the sacrament today.” “Well, I’m sure someone could do that for you.” “Yes,” he said, “But I see how people look at me when I pass the sacrament. I think it helps them.”

  46:38 So Colleen helped him button his shirt and tie his tie, and they drove to church. Clearly something important was happening. I came to church from an earlier meeting, and so was surprised to see Tanner sitting on the deacon’s row. Colleen quietly told me why he was there and what he had said. It helps people. And so I watched as the deacons step to the sacrament table. He leaned gently against another deacon as the priest passed them the bread trays. And then Tanner shuffled to his appointed place took hold of the end of the pew to steady himself as he presented the sacrament.

  47:15 It seemed that every eye in the chapel was on him, moved by his struggle as he did his simple part. Somehow Tanner expressed a silent sermon as he solemnly, haltingly moved from row to row. His bald head, moist with perspiration representing the Savior in the way that deacons do. His once indomitable deacon’s body was itself a little bruised, broken and torn, willingly suffering to serve by bearing the emblems of the Savior’s Atonement into our lives.

  47:51 Seeing how he had come to think about being a deacon made us think differently too about the sacrament, about the Savior, and about the deacons and teachers and priests. I wonder at that unspoken miracle that had impelled him that morning to respond so bravely that still small call to serve. Every time a deacon holds a sacrament tray, we are reminded of a sacred story of the Last Supper, of Gethsemane, of Calvary, of the Garden Tomb when the Savior said to his Apostles, and this do in remembrance of me, he was speaking through the ages to each of us, he was speaking of the unending miracle that he would provide as future deacons, teachers and priests would present his emblems and invite his children to accept his atoning gift.

  48:41 That is what holding up your light, the Savior’s light, looks like.”

John Bytheway: 48:50 I love that story and I love President and Sister Lund that has blessed a lot of people. One of the things that I love about this verse is I don’t know if there’s any other nickname that the Savior shares with us. He says, “I am the light of the world,” and he also said, “You are the light of the world.” Which is kind of fascinating, and this is the verse that puts them both together. “I am the light which ye shall hold up, that which you have seen me do.” That’s always been fascinating to me that we get to be a light, but that light is just his light trying to do what he would do.

  49:36 Matt, we could tie things up right there. That’s such a beautiful story. But what can we see in chapter 19 that we’d love to comment on before we wrap it up?

Dr. Matt Townsend: 49:47 Yeah. 19 is special in its own regard. 19 is the beginning of the next day. Finally, we’ve had a new day. It is interesting that basically verse one, when Jesus ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, they went back to their homes. Not everyone necessarily went back to their homes. Verse three, “Yea, and even all the night, it was noised abroad concerning Jesus. And insomuch they did send forth unto the people that there were many, yea, an exceedingly great number did labor exceedingly all night that they might be on the morrow in the place where Jesus should show himself unto the multitude.” They were all busy now being caught up in the love of Christ and letting their light shine and sharing everything that’s been happening. And imagine again, who would we run to get there for the next day? And they brought a bunch of people, a lot of people came the next day.

John Bytheway: 50:53 You can’t text them or email them. You got to go get them.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 50:57 Yeah, President Monson, you know this quote well, it says, “We are surrounded by those in need of our attention, our encouragement, our support, our comfort, our kindness. We are the Lord’s hands here upon the earth with the mandate to serve and to lift his children. He is dependent upon each of us.” And what’s beautiful is they delivered. They went out and they delivered and they got everybody back. And when they got back, there were so many that were there that those disciples that had been selected, those that had been chosen, then took that group, broke them into 12 different groups, and then started to have them pray and taught them everything that was taught the day before. Again, a wonderful ritual of communion with everyone.

Hank Smith: 51:49 Matt, do you think people would’ve been disappointed? Jesus is here, so they come running and it’s his 12 disciples. They’re like, “That’s not Jesus.” Maybe there’s something to that. That come see Jesus and your way to him is going to be through these apostles.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 52:05 It is interesting. And maybe it was the willingness, now they’re more willing because they’ve heard the message of those that were there. Now, their willingness, now they’re coming in through the disciples and then the disciples have them kneel down again. Remember, kneel down to be blessed. And then from that, they then took them down to the water’s edge. And remember, part of the prayer that they were offering as they were kneeling was to have the Holy Ghost that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them. They prayed for it. The disciples were begging for that Holy Ghost. They needed that light, that spirit, that inspiration to help them heal that we’ve been talking about, to help them feel the Spirit. And in order to receive the Holy Ghost, they needed to be taken down to the waters of baptism.

  52:53 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire. And the gospel of Jesus Christ was in play again, the doctrine of Christ, of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance to turn back, follow the bid, turn back to the bid, make covenants of baptism and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And they were filled with the Spirit and it became a process of making more and more people holy through the Holy Ghost.

  53:31 D. Todd Christofferson said, “Our Heavenly father is a God of high expectations. He proposes to make us holy so that we may abide a celestial glory and dwell in his presence.” Lectures on Faith explains no being can enjoy his glory without possessing his perfections and holiness. Our father in heaven knows us, he loves us and he has provided for all of us that is required so that we can become holy as he is holy.” Line upon line again, back to the Spirit, slowly converting and making us holy.

Hank Smith: 54:06 And then, he’s back. It’s time for day two.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 54:12 That’s exactly right. Imagine the joy of him coming back again, now he’s seeing all these other people and he’s seeing it’s working, the message is working and it’s in the hearts and it’s in the minds of his people. And the covenant is slowly changing them to become even more like him. They’re now taking on his image in their countenance. Their complexions are changing. The light of Christ is flowing from them. It’s a powerful scene and it’s a powerful opportunity for a lot of us. As Elder Christofferson says here, “Keeping the Lord’s Commandments enables us more fully and more easily to feel his love. The straight and narrow path of commandments lead directly to the tree of life and the tree and its fruit, the sweetest and the most desirable above all things, are the representations of the love of God and fill the soul and bring us exceedingly great joy.”

Hank Smith: 55:09 This has been fantastic. Maybe I could ask you one last question before you go. Matt, you’ve been working with families and couples for a couple decades now, even though you don’t look it, how have you seen the Lord heal families and marriages? That’s what he does here, he comes and he heals.

Dr. Matt Townsend: 55:29 What I’ve seen is it’s not their therapist, it’s not their coach. It’s when people use their agency to align themselves to principle, and they bring the love that is uniquely inherently them because of who they were before they ever came to this earth and who they are as a son and daughter of God. It starts to create a change. And when I recognize in my spouse that they’re not just a mere mortal, but that they’re a child of the most high God. And when I in any way, shape, or form can actually try to live that with them, change takes place. It may not change both parties. Sometimes it only changes one party. But I’ve seen marriages become incredibly good by just one party. And by the way, not even always the most broken one. I wish it could always be two.

  56:28 But I think in our covenant we need to just remember, we are not alone in the covenant. We’re not alone in this. We are married to the bridegroom. The number one thing that always helps is when the Savior is in the relationship. However we get them in, we’ve got to find a way to invoke that spirit, that name, that power, and we come unto Christ wherever we are in the relationship and then he slowly changes us line upon line again. That’s the only thing I’ve seen that lastingly creates change.

Hank Smith: 57:03 Wow. What a fun day. John, I have a lot to do, but I’m going to just take it a bit at a time and go back through. I thought my margins were already full and they are. I’m squeezing, I’m going to say my margins spilleth over.

John Bytheway: 57:22 Hank, you said you’re going to take it a bit at a time. You could say, I take it a bid at a time. I’m going to take these bids-

Hank Smith: 57:28 A bid at a time.

John Bytheway: 57:30 … and I’m going to turn. I’ll never forget that. So many invitations, so many bids, and now we can turn. So good.

Hank Smith: 57:41 Thanks, Matt. We’re grateful you’d spent your time with us. It’s been a treat.

  57:46 With that, we want to thank Dr. Matt Townsend for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week, we’ve got the Savior’s second day with the people of Nephi on FollowHIM.

  58:08 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website Followhim.co. That’s Follow-Him, dot, C-O. On our website, you’ll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else. If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find.

  58:50 Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 59:03 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.