John Bytheway: 00:01 Keep listening for Part Two with Dr. Craig Manning, 3 Nephi 1:7.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Craig, John, I’ve been looking forward all year to 3 Nephi 3, which isn’t something in 3 Nephi that everyone looks forward to, but, John, we have learned a lot about the adversary’s playbook from people like, so far, Sherem, Nehor, Korihor, Amalickiah, and you can add Giddianhi to that list, because he writes this letter, and I think Mormon is brilliant putting this letter in here. You get into the mindset of someone who is an antichrist the way they think.

Dr. Craig Manning: 00:43 Yeah, total narcissist. He is a classic narcissist in this moment.

John Bytheway: 00:49 You read this letter and you think, is he serious? You can read a smirk. Hey, Lachoneus, noble chief and governor, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:59 I’m going to help you out.

John Bytheway: 01:00 How can you not read this and go, “Wow, this is real drama.” He’s basically saying, “Surrender everything and give it to us, because I don’t want the trouble of a war.”

Hank Smith: 01:09 Yeah.

Dr. Craig Manning: 01:11 Oh man, he is trying to gaslight and blame Lachoneus for all of this. I just am laughing my head off as I’m reading this. This is the classical role model for a narcissist, and he’s trying to narcissize Lachoneus, Lachoneus has no business with it. I love how he responds, which we’ve already talked about, stating the facts, so it makes me laugh when I read this.

Hank Smith: 01:34 I noticed the compliment that’s meant to cause doubt. “I have great praise for you. It’s almost as if there was a God.” And then this pity. “I’m your friend here, Lachoneus, and it’s just so sad.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 01:50 Can you see how he’s trying to position himself above everyone else, and everyone else is beneath him instead of the flat where a leader really is out in front, not up above?

Hank Smith: 02:00 Then there’s some intimidation in Verse 4. “My men have an everlasting hatred towards you, and I,” Verse 5, “am feeling for your welfare. I’m here to help you.” John, we’ve talked about this so many times. This is how the adversary is going to work in your life. If you see these tactics, you can know where they come from.

Dr. Craig Manning: 02:25 It’s all about blame instead of being self-aware. When you’re self-aware and aware of you, you won’t get deceived like this if you’re self-aware, and that’s the two choices we made before. Every psychological issue is rooted in control, is what the science says. Let’s go back to the primordial debate between the adversary and the Savior. Agency is about control. If you have self-control, you have agency. If you give your control away, your locus of control, the science calls it, you’re giving your agency away. This is where you’re at now is you have to gaslight people and try to swindle people and deceive others to be able to do the work for you. That’s what’s going on here is he’s wanting others to do all of the work for you because you don’t want to do it yourself.

John Bytheway: 03:09 We’re introduced to this almost Captain Moroni-like character of Lachoneus, and his story goes by pretty fast, but he is in my mind up there like Captain Moroni. He could not be frightened by the demands and threatenings of a robber. Lachoneus’s reaction is based in truth.

Dr. Craig Manning: 03:27 We all have different personalities and there’s no end to the different personalities we have, but we all end up in this one mental place from an execution where we’re arrogant, aggressive, assertive, or passive, tying it back to the modern-day world. It’s so interesting. There is this innate laziness about arrogant people. Arrogant people don’t want to do the work themselves, and so they want to put themselves above and put others beneath them so others will do the work for them.

  03:53 These Gadianton robbers, they don’t want to do any work. They don’t want to plow seeds. They want to take from others. That’s that scarcity mentality, that fear base. When you’re not building yourself and working on yourself, you have no choice but to want to take from others. And that’s the very definition of a thief is you’re trying to take from others and you’re trying to scare others to do the work because you don’t know how to take care of yourself, and that’s why there’s been so much research around how important it is to be self-aware. Obviously, Lachoneus is the ultimate example of that here.

Hank Smith: 04:25 Giddianhi offers something he can’t give, which is freedom. “You’ll be our brethren and our partners in all of our substance. You have no substance.” Right? I’m going to bring all the substance to this relationship.

John Bytheway: 04:40 Yeah.

Dr. Craig Manning: 04:40 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 04:42 I’ve seen this, in our day and age, that you leave that church, you leave those prophets and you’ll be free. You will have freedom. And I rarely see that work out. That’s a scary place to be, is to start listening to offers from someone who absolutely can’t deliver.

Dr. Craig Manning: 05:01 Yeah, and that’s where I was saying, to me the line’s here in 7, as you talked about. “Yield yourselves up unto us and unite with us and become acquainted with our secret works.” Almost trying to seduce. It’s a great thing, and this is, “Come and join our team,” but you know what you end up doing is these people at the top don’t want to do the work and they really want you to come just to do more of the labor for them. They want to control you, and you’re giving your control away when you do this. You’re giving your freedom away. But the secret works… I really continually worry about secrecy. Nothing good comes from secrecy. The opposite is transparency in speaking the truth. Secrecy leads to all sorts of deception and delusion when you walk in secrecy instead of being transparent about pretty much everything.

Hank Smith: 05:50 You talked about leaders at the top don’t want to do any work, and I think of the exact opposite of our prophets and apostles. We literally watch them work themselves to the end.

John Bytheway: 06:02 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 06:02 We watched President Monson. Do you remember his opening conference talk as President of the Church? He’s wiggling his ears. And then take his last conference talk where he can barely stand. I like what you’re saying here, Craig. The Gadianton Robbers, the leaders, they want to do any work. Maybe you can notice a leader, a true leader, a leader of truth, by the amount of work they’re putting in.

Dr. Craig Manning: 06:26 Yeah. People that are really honest aren’t deceiving themselves from what they need to do, and that’s at the root again, and that’s where the laziness is a little bit of a byproduct of we’re deceiving ourselves on what actually needs to be done and where. Then, when we get in that place where we’re lazy and we’re not doing it ourselves, we’re dependent on others doing it for us, and so that’s where we need to control others because we’re not in control of ourselves. Remember, every psychological issue is rooted in control, and we really want to learn to control our own thoughts and control our own behavior, because if you don’t, you have no choice but to try to control others.

Hank Smith: 07:01 John, you’ve heard me say this before, but he calls his side the good side. He swapped woe to them that call evil good and good evil. He did that in Verse 9. If I can get you to think you are the bad guy, then you got your friends and your enemies mixed up.

John Bytheway: 07:18 Really important not to confuse your friends with your enemies. I like Verse 11. “When Lachoneus received this epistle, he was exceedingly astonished.”

Hank Smith: 07:31 It says, “The boldness of Giddianhi,” but I think Craig would say the arrogance and the narcissism of Giddianhi.

John Bytheway: 07:38 Keep going. “Demanding the possession of the land of the Nephites, avenging the wrongs of those who had received no wrong, save they’d wronged themselves.” Wow.

Dr. Craig Manning: 07:49 All of that projection is blame, and that’s where people go down the wrong path where they start blaming and projecting things onto others and not being self-aware.

Hank Smith: 07:58 And then this phrase. You’re thinking, what is Lachoneus going to do? He must be terrified getting this letter, and it’s such a simple response. He was a just man. He could not be frightened by the demands and threatenings of a robber. That is the truth. Giddianhi thinks he’s this and that and amazing. He says, “Man, you are a robber. You’re a thief.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 08:20 Yes, he just stated the facts: what we’ve talked about, can you see exactly how Hank even delivered it? He just doesn’t get into the emotional drama when we’re trying to control others, all this drama that’s not real. When you just come back and state the facts, “You’re a robber. This is what’s really going on,” it neutralizes all the emotional and ego and the drama that simplifies things and organizes things and makes sense of things.

Hank Smith: 08:42 I love it. It reminds me of… What does Nephi… He says, “We saw the people in the building and we-

John Bytheway: 08:48 “Heeded them not.”

Hank Smith: 08:48 “We heeded them not.” Didn’t pay attention.

John Bytheway: 08:51 I think Lachoneus is a lot like Captain Moroni here, so Verse 12. “He was a just man.” He emphasized spiritual preparation first. The first thing he did was tell the people to pray to God for help. Then Verse 14, he prepared fortifications for defense. 15, he emphasized repentance. 19, he had the spirit of revelation and prophecy. Verse 21, he didn’t take the offensive. You stay home and defend. It’s one of the rules of warfare in the book of Mormon. Verse 25: “He gathered the people into one body and exhorted them to be of one heart.” It’s a Zion sound to that. “And then Gidgiddoni came along and caused them to make weapons.” So it’s very much like Moroni, because Moroni was always spiritual preparation first. Okay, and now we can make fortifications as well, but let’s get our spiritual act together first, and then we can work on a defensive posture.

Dr. Craig Manning: 09:46 In D&C 4, it talks about “with your heart, might, mind and strength.” So heart is spiritual. Might is emotional. Mental and physical. In research, we even know that there’s four intelligences. There’s a spiritual, emotional, mental and physical. There’s four intelligences, and it’s so interesting. John points out you get the spiritual first because that’s our moral compass. That’s a reminder of where we’re going, to get that right first. Then the emotion, which is the passion and the energy behind what we need to do, and then the mind and the physical. One of the things we’re seeing… I mentioned assertiveness here. I love the part… They build fortifications. They don’t go to attack the Gadianton robbers. They defend really their space. Agreed?

John Bytheway: 10:26 In Verse 20: “Now the people said unto Gidgiddoni, ‘Pray unto the Lord. Let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness that we may fall upon the robbers. Destroy them in their own lands.’ And Gidgiddoni saith unto them, ‘The Lord forbid. If we go up against them, the Lord would deliver us into their hands. We will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands.'”

Dr. Craig Manning: 10:46 Yeah. This is what I love, because they’re not being aggressive. Aggression is when you’re trying to occupy other people’s space. You’re trying to take advantage of others. You’re trying to control others. I go back to the law of occupied space. It’s the fundamental law of the human mind. There’s space there, and that’s why to be free, we need to have our own thoughts, and in order to have our own agency.

  11:05 But what always happens when people are in the fight or flight response, when people are aggressive, they always want to take your space. They want to take something from you, because they want to occupy your space to try to control you, which is what we’re talking about with the control. That’s what he does there. Instead of going and fighting them and being aggressive against them, he’s simply being assertive, and assertiveness is owning your own space. Even as we’re on this podcast, there’s space between me and both of you. There’s space. So if I’m assertive and I’m an independent, healthy, high-functioning human being, I’m going to occupy 50% of that space. The other 50% is yours. I’m going to occupy my space.

  11:43 To me, this is the ultimate example of Christ. He was not passive. When we talk about humility, sometimes we think humility is being self-deprecating. No, humility is not being self-deprecating. Humility is not putting yourself down. Humility is giving credit where credit is due. It’s giving credit to the Lord, but it’s not putting yourself down and it’s also not being aggressive. Christ, He was never aggressive, but he was firm and steadfast. He found the balance, which is in the middle, and that’s exactly what’s going on here. We’re not trying to fight other people. We’re not even competing with other people. We’re trying to be the best versions of ourselves, and that’s what’s very clear here in standing up, occupying 50%.

  12:25 One more thing I want to say with people, in any of your interactions out there in the world, is it’s not about trying to control other people. We want to control and be independent and responsible and self-aware, but you’re going to come across some people in this life, in business, in athletics, in church that are softer, that are a bit more passive and that won’t occupy their 50%, so be careful of those moments. Those are critical moments, because it’s sometimes easy for us all to take more space than really what is ours for people that are a little softer and meeker, and this is what the best leaders, the best coaches, the best do. They occupy 50% and they invite other people to meet them halfway, and that’s where the collaboration is.

  13:09 And that’s clearly what Gidgiddoni is doing so skillfully here. He’s standing up for truth and standing up for what is right, but not instigating anything and being aggressive. So I just love, from a modern-day world, he is the ultimate example of being assertive and not aggressive or passive.

Hank Smith: 13:27 John, do you remember when we interviewed Sister Aburto and she was timid to take time in her meetings with Elder Bednar, and he invited her. He said, “Please don’t hold back. I want to hear all you have to say.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 13:40 I loved hearing that. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 13:41 Same principle.

Dr. Craig Manning: 13:43 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 13:43 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 13:43 Yeah.

Dr. Craig Manning: 13:44 It’s not about being aggressive. Think about Christ and how He walked and talked. He was firm and steadfast. And by the way, fight or flight is normal. It is fear-based and it is survival mode. But are we about survival or are we about thriving.

Dr. Craig Manning: 14:00 And to thrive, assertiveness is a learned behavior. You’re not born with it. That’s why we’ve got to become like Christ. We’ve got to work towards finding this balance and it’s not easy. None of us should feel bad if we are a little aggressive at times or a little overly passive. That’s normal. That’s why it’s a constant work in process and a constant learning, as we talked about learning earlier, constantly learning how to assert and be the best version of yourself without imposing your will on other people and finding that balance, and I think that’s why I love this part. It’s the ultimate example of that against people that some would argue it’s better to go and be aggressive towards. No, I don’t think so. Whenever you become aggressive, things don’t go well. You’re not blessed when you’re aggressive. You’re not going to find success when you’re aggressive. At a basketball game, you get in trouble.

Hank Smith: 14:51 Craig, all you’re saying reminds me of the brilliance of Section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants. “We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by the virtue of the priesthood. It needs to be done with persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness.” This was how far ahead of its time?

Dr. Craig Manning: 15:24 That’s so good.

John Bytheway: 15:26 Oh, that is one of the greatest human relations discourses ever. It’s a letter from Liberty Jail. The guy is sitting in jail and he writes these letters that are amazing.

Hank Smith: 15:39 It goes on to say, “Use kindness and pure knowledge.” There it is there, Craig. Truth.

Dr. Craig Manning: 15:46 Kindness to me is the application of unconditional love. That’s the love. When we’re kind with our words, we’re operationalizing love. Here I am. I work heavily in the athletic world. You don’t need to be aggressive, you need to be assertive if you want to be successful. I do not see aggressive people often being successful for very long. The best I would argue are predominantly assertive, not aggressive.

Hank Smith: 16:10 And you said that aggressive anger, that will give you a bit of motivation, but it doesn’t last.

Dr. Craig Manning: 16:15 Yes.

John Bytheway: 16:16 Craig, if you could kind of quickly define those again, the difference between being aggressive and assertive, I want to get that right in my head.

Dr. Craig Manning: 16:25 Keeping it in an assigned space as possible is when we’re aggressive, we’re trying to occupy other people’s space. We’re occupying more than our fair share of their space. We’re trying to control or dominate or… Not influence. It’s okay to influence and try to persuade through language and kindness, but not to try to control people, not to try and always tell people what to do. And at a higher level, give people space to be free to choose for themselves but still occupy your space. And it’s a balance. It’s not easy. That’s why no one’s born this way. It takes work. I saw an article once and they called it… This is a long, long time ago. They called it “artificial intelligence.” And I’m not talking about machine intelligence. I’m talking about being rational, reasonable, logical are learned behaviors. We’re not born with those abilities. It takes discipline and hard work to learn to be rational.

  17:15 Something I’ve learned is like honest is not just something we’re born with. Little kids are the ones that write with red markers on the wall or paint on the wall and you catch them and it’s like, “It wasn’t me.” They’re innocent, but they don’t know how to be really truthful yet completely. I mean they’re innocent, they are truthful. But the more we age, we have to learn ourselves to be disciplined to see the truth and reasonable is this part of what we’re talking about here. Reasonable is middle ground, trying to find the middle ground and not the polarization that President Nelson just keeps talking about, which is the polarization is the aggressive… is people taking aggressive sides and that leads to logical, the highest level of human intelligence is being rational, reasonable, and logical, which means being real, being reasonable, and being logical in your thought, which is the multiple data points in persuading through truth, multiple points of truth, not trying to dominate or dictate, but teach and teach people so that they can learn for themselves, which tying back to the modern world, is what transformation was, becoming like Christ.

Hank Smith: 18:19 Craig, I can hear almost every parent listening going, “Teach me how to do this with my children, how to not control them but yet control them.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 18:29 Give them choices. Things changed in the year 2000 because the internet went public in 1993 and up until then, all wisdom and knowledge really was filtered down from parents, teachers, religious leaders, and it was filtered down from a top down. But then when the internet was invented, 1% of all communication or information transference was through the internet. But by the year 2000, 51% was being transferred. So that changed. So with that change though, information is coming from every direction, not just from parents, teachers, and religious leaders and that changed everything. What that created was… Traditionalist generations, baby boomers, Gen Xs like us, we were taught by those older than us that were further up the hierarchy, but with the invention of the internet, they get access from information from everywhere. And so what’s changed is instead of following these rules and systems, we need to communicate more skillfully than ever, which ties back to Hank, what you’re talking about.

  19:33 The kindness in our words, but the accuracy in our words to teach and persuade and convince is so critical in the modern world. We can’t tell them what to do. They switch off. They stop listening. You can bring the hammer down all you want, but they’re not listening, it’s not having any impact. So being skilled at using your communication in words… Which makes sense to me because human thought is the soul of the individual anyway. It makes sense that the very glue of society is how well we communicate and I think about the prophets and the apostles and how precise and exact their words are and how accurate everything they say. I’m sure you get the opportunity to meet with them. I don’t but high functioning people, one of these athletes I get to work with, every time we do a session, he has a pen and a paper there and his journal and at the point he’s asking me how I spell words. I’ve never seen a high functioning person that wasn’t disciplined and exact with their thoughts. Not once.

Hank Smith: 20:32 Sometimes I think I parent like Giddianhi with all this manipulation and threats. “I’m trying to control you,” and it does, Craig… It has the exact opposite effect of what I’m hoping for.

Dr. Craig Manning: 20:49 It’s hard.

Hank Smith: 20:51 Yeah. My wife, I think, frequently looks at me and goes, “Okay, well, let’s learn this lesson again for the thousandth time that this doesn’t work.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 21:00 Oh, it’s harder. Something that works for me, pray to the Lord and I ask the Lord, “Please help me to know the language. Please help me to understand. Please help me to know what emotion I can bring. What can I do to try to have an impact here? Because I can’t control them, but what can I do to somehow be able to say something in just the right way that can have the impact?”

Hank Smith: 21:23 Craig, I like something you said earlier. Bring good energy to the relationship because sometimes with my own children, I think I bring negative energy.

Dr. Craig Manning: 21:33 That’s the emotional intelligence. We talked about spiritual and the emotional is the energy. Think about your car. That’s the emotion. Spiritual is the destination. That’s the moral compass. The emotion is the engine. We got to control the energy. And so being aware of the energy you bring with your words, your tongue, your non-verbal communication and try to bring the right energy in the right situation. I have one of our kids who’s just so skilled with humor. Try to learn from him, try to figure out how to bring the right humor at the right time. And wow, he’s good at that and he’s pretty young. I wish I could learn that skill better, but I’m trying to get better at it. And here’s something I read once. This is not easy… So I’m quoting this, try to get as best I can. It said, “But this is not easy what we’re talking about. But there is a difference between somebody that is just careless and somebody that is struggling, revising, and trying to upgrade their language and how they say and deliver to make an impact for good.”

  22:29 And I think that’s why we’re doing this. We’re all struggling, revising, trying to upgrade our knowledge and understanding of the gospel all the time to know and have greater awareness so that we can become better. That’s what evolution is, and I don’t think anyone that’s listening should beat themselves up as parents or I try not to because we’re evolving. Evolution is learning. I’m just always trying to learn and always trying to get better and not dwell on the past because that’s where the guilt and shame is like we talk about.

Hank Smith: 22:56 Yeah. John, isn’t this fantastic?

John Bytheway: 22:59 Yes, so good. I want to add one thing about that 50% space because you know what came to mind, Hank, was the last verse. Shiblon gets one chapter, he’s a good boy. He only gets one chapter. “Use boldness but not overbearance.” I mean there’s this 50% thing here. “Also, see that ye bridle all your passions that ye may be filled with love. See that ye refrain from idleness.” One time I was in the JSB down at BYU and Elder Maxwell, remember him, was in there talking and he said, “If the missionary White Bible…” They don’t use that anymore. “But if it could be compressed into one verse, it might be Alma 38:12.” And look at that space thing there. “Use boldness, not overbearance. See that ye bridle all your passions that ye may be filled with love. See that ye refrain from idleness.” Another interpersonal relationship’s great advice.

Dr. Craig Manning: 23:53 I know we’ve been talking about some pretty heavy things here, but if we can just talk about that spatial awareness because that’s why… John, you were talking about that space, that space between people. 50% is mine, 50% is yours, that’s very doable for anyone listening though. I’m going to take it to a safe place. In athletics, really high level athletics, it is about spatial awareness. You’re aware of your body, your limbs, you’re aware of the positioning on the tennis court and you’re aware of what’s going on. Ronaldo, one of the greatest soccer players to ever play, was asked in an interview this year of who he thinks is the next great up and coming soccer player. And he talked about Mbappe. The reporter asked him, “Well, why?” And he says, “Because he understands space.”

  24:35 I’ve always noticed this in a pattern with really high function people. They are aware of space. When you’re aware of space, you know and you can read the room and you can see in your relationship with others the gap there. Trying to find that balance as best as possible in parenting and everything we do. So I love that you brought that back up, John. Even if we go to a higher level… I’ve been playing tennis since I was six, so I can hit the ball where I want to hit the ball, but at the highest level, it’s moving to the right space when you’re not hitting the ball and most people don’t notice that. Everyone wants to look at the mechanics and look at the other stuff and they don’t see the positioning and the movement when you’re not hitting the ball. Same working with the US Olympic team and the downhill skiers. It’s getting your skis in the right position when you come down.

  25:23 In the NBA, it’s moving to the right position. It’s positioning, constantly putting yourself in a good position, which I think is the gospel. Constantly put yourself in good places, good thoughts, good places, good people all the time.

John Bytheway: 25:37 So good.

Hank Smith: 25:39 Let’s keep going here. Chapters four, five, six, and seven, we still want to cover all of these. John, you know this story better than anyone. How do Gidgiddoni and Lachoneus respond?

John Bytheway: 25:49 Well, they’ve already moved into one body. They’ve got all their provisions in there. I’ve got on my margin “the triumph of food storage” because they bring everything inside and the Gadianton robbers sally forth, whatever sallying means, and they’re running out of game. It says in verse four, I love this, that the Nephites had gathered stuff together so they could subsist for the space of seven years. “Seven years of bumper crop are on their way.” So the footnote takes you to the story of Joseph of Egypt who did seven years of storage. The Genesis 41 footnote is there, and I’m reading verse five.

  26:31 I remember reading it when I was younger. “There’s no way they could subsist, save it were to plunder and rob and murder.” And I thought, “Well, they could farm.” But then I read verse six, “They durst not spread themselves upon the face of the land insomuch they could raise grain lest the Nephites should have come upon them and slay them.” A fascinating thing about hunting versus farming. Hunting has an immediate gratification. For them, that’s the only thing they had prepared and now they had to attack because the Nephites had their food storage.

Hank Smith: 27:06 Didn’t you write that book too, Lessons from the Farm? How many books have you written?

John Bytheway: 27:11 I wrote one called Farm Wisdom for City Folks because I heard so many great talks that started out, “I was raised on a farm…” And I thought, “Man, I’m a loser. I must have missed out on a lot of stuff. I’ve got to figure out what they learned on the farm.”

Hank Smith: 27:29 That’s great. Seems like Craig was raised on a tennis court. That’s what it sounds like.

Dr. Craig Manning: 27:33 Yeah, definitely.

Hank Smith: 27:35 I noticed verse seven that these Gadianton robbers, they have a great and terrible appearance. It’s not that they’re powerful, but they look powerful and they think that they’re instilling fear into the Nephites. In this thing, they were disappointed, verse 10, for the Nephites did not fear them, but they did fear their god.

Hank Smith: 28:00 What’s the answer to fear here? Because I’m looking at this army and they’re coming for me and I could be terrified!

John Bytheway: 28:08 Yeah. They sound scary to me.

Hank Smith: 28:10 Yeah.

Dr. Craig Manning: 28:11 I had several thoughts when I was reading through that, and the first thing is don’t be intimidated by aggressive people because when they don’t get what they want, which is what’s happening here, when they can’t control you, when they can’t manipulate you, they want to intimidate you. The biggest thing they’re trying to do is control the lines of communication. If we bring this back to the main world, so don’t be intimidated by aggressive people, by how they look at their tone and they’ll get angry at you at times. They’ll increase their tone. Just continue to communicate.

  28:37 And that’s the firmness and the steadfastness, is continue to communicate and continue to be firm so that you’re not letting them intimidate and to bully you. They’re trying to bully them at this point. How we stand up for ourselves is to continue to communicate. Don’t go passive and run from the situation because now you’re in the fight or flight response. Just continue to stand up and to communicate, and we see what’s happening here globally. This is why countries, not just individuals in states, but countries invade each other and get angry at each other because what we’re talking about here, we’re trying to intimidate each other all the time instead of communicating.

  29:12 If we know truth, why are we intimidated by anyone? Why do we think other people are better than us or worse than us? We don’t see the world as this hierarchy. It’s more flat. Since I learned some of these skills to communicate and to understand what truth really is, I’m not really intimidated by other people. We’re all people and we’re all trying to do the best we can, and so I’m not really afraid anymore. They still say that speaking in public is the most stressful thing for people to do. It doesn’t bother me at all anymore.

  29:44 I’m just speaking the truth, and so I’m not intimidated by that. Or some of these athletes I get to work with. I’m going to a wedding here in a couple of weeks to Greece and apparently Mbappe is going to be there and some other people are going to be there, and hopefully that’s an opportunity to be able to communicate with them because we’re all human beings. We’re all the same, and if you aren’t afraid to communicate, there’s no one to be afraid of. And just learning what I’ve learned is just, we’re all human beings. We’re all are of the same worth. I know the Lord probably trusts some more than he trusts others.

Hank Smith: 30:14 I like that. That’s verse 10. “The Nephites did not fear them. They went to the source of truth. They went to God.” It turns out that Giddianhi doesn’t have the power that he thought he had.

John Bytheway: 30:25 All hat, no cattle.

Hank Smith: 30:27 All hat. That’s what Steve Sorensen would say, our founder. All hat, no cattle. Verse 14, “Thus was the end of Giddianhi, the robber.” Mormon’s such a fun writer.

Dr. Craig Manning: 30:41 I hope everybody learns from this. It’s the same in the business world. This idea, and it’s not necessarily Hollywood, but sometimes I’ll do this at the best leaders or the people we should revere are the people that are this dominating figure. But truthfully, in my experience being out there in the business world and the athletic world, the highest functioning people are the most real. It’s not this fake bravado in this show of superiority and trying to intimidate people. That’s not how it is out there. The best leaders in business are authentic, humble people. They’re not the showy thing, the majority of the time. The best athletes I’ve had the privilege to be able to work with are incredibly humble kind people when you get to get close to them. They’re not the showy. They’re real, real people.

  31:28 I’ve found over and over again, the highest functioning of people are the most authentic. They’re the most real, and they care about truth and if you are not speaking the truth yourself, they don’t think they can trust you, so they don’t see the connection there. They’re too busy because they’ve got too many other people that want something from them, so if you don’t speak the truth and you’re not real with them, they move on quickly because it’s not something of value to them. We bring value being ourselves. Here’s another comment I heard once. “What makes you interesting is who you really are.” And the truth is interesting enough, you don’t need to elaborate. The truth is what makes you interesting.

Hank Smith: 32:08 I remember reading the book Good to Great years ago and it said, “The best leaders have incredible drive and incredible humility.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 32:18 Yep.

Hank Smith: 32:19 Wonderful combination.

John Bytheway: 32:21 Okay, so Giddianhi is gone. Verse 18, “This was an advantage to the Nephites”, this new Zemnarihah. It was impossible for the robbers to lay siege sufficiently long to have any effect upon the Nephites because of their much provision, which they had laid up in store and because of the scantiness of the provisions among the robbers.” Eventually Zemnarihah, verse 28, was taken and hanged upon a tree and then they fell the tree to the earth. They cried with a loud voice and kind of did a psalm. From what I’ve read, they cut down the tree because they didn’t want to make a monument to a bad guy, a bad example.

Hank Smith: 33:01 Oh, okay.

John Bytheway: 33:02 We can think of what was the burial place of Osama bin Laden.

Hank Smith: 33:06 Yeah, put him right in the sea.

John Bytheway: 33:08 Nobody knows. We’re not going to accidentally make a shrine to a bad guy. Then they cut down the tree so that it wouldn’t become this monument in town. Then here comes this gushing of gratitude.

Hank Smith: 33:20 Yeah, I wanted to point out verse 33 to you, “Their hearts were swollen with joy.” There’s that gratitude, “Unto the gushing out of many tears,” and here’s the humility. “They knew it was because of their repentance and their humility that they had been delivered from everlasting destruction.” There’s the truth you were talking about with gratitude, humility.

Dr. Craig Manning: 33:45 I love the confidence in the gospel and the humility, confident humility. Those two words just jump out to me so much. Be confident, which is faith, right? Have faith in the gospel and be confident, but stay humble, which is the learning part to me as well, and I love that that’s jumping out right there. Such a good way to live life when we really see the good path and the bad path. What a good way and simple way to live if we stay humble, stay confident in the things we’ve been taught and confident in the blessings of the gifts the Lord’s given us and yes, I love that a lot.

  34:20 I was just opening up that idea for a minute because I love how, I think it was President McKay in 1965 gave a talk on the six things we’ll be judged on. Number one was how you treat your spouse. Number two is how well do you know your kids? But number three was what have you done with the God-given gifts you’ve been given in the pre-mortal existence? Which we’ve been given those and having gratitude for that is so fundamental as well as these lessons. So, being confident in who we are and what we’ve been given, which is the gratitude, but humble enough to keep learning and getting better is why, those are two words that I just always try to remember.

  34:55 Be confident, which is also assertiveness, which is big theme in this to me, the part we’ve been talking about here in opposition to the fight or flight response in aggressive and passive. So, that’s where I’m at right now. There’s just so much here around being confident, which is the firmness. They were firm and steadfast. Be confident, but humble is the big theme for me in this verse towards 4 and 5 a little bit as well, confident but still humble.

Hank Smith: 35:23 John, Craig, with the last portion of our episode here, why don’t we do a quick summary of chapters 5, 6 and 7 and then highlight the verses you want to do.

John Bytheway: 35:33 Chapter 5, things are good for a while. We have this really great introduction of Mormon who tells us, “Hey, I’m Mormon,” and he gives this great verse, which we have to comment on, and a really powerful statement about the gathering of Israel in the last few verses. And then this pride cycle gets going again in chapter 6, we have people divided into classes. There’s some good things, but then the pride shows up and in chapter 7 we have a chief judge murdered and then they start to divide up into tribes.

  36:04 All of this is leading up to, we know the Savior’s coming. As we have said, and President Benson used to say, “Hey, you want to know what things are like before the second coming? Study what they’re like before his first coming in the Book of Mormon.” Here we come. Mormon kind of introduces himself in verse 12, “Behold, I am called Mormon, being called after the land of Mormon, the land in which Alma did establish the church among his people. Yea the first church which was established among them after their transgression.”

  36:33 And then this verse 13, I know that there’s lots of missions around the church that have their missionaries. This is verse 13, “Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the son of God. I have been called of him to declare his word among his people that they might have everlasting life.” I was thinking about this because I wanted to say this. There is a line in the new Preach my Gospel that I think is one of the best lines. It’s the title of a lesson, it’s on page 76, and it sounds like the outcome that we are all going for, and here’s the sentence, “Becoming Lifelong Disciples of Jesus Christ.”

  37:15 You could unpack a lot in becoming, which you’ve already mentioned, Craig, it’s a process. Lifelong, not part-time or one-time, but lifelong disciples, and we know what disciples are. There’s discipline implied. It’s just a great phrase. This is what it’s all about. President Nelson might say, “Stay on the covenant path.” Another way to say it, become a lifelong disciple of Jesus Christ, and Mormon kind of throws that idea at us right there.

Dr. Craig Manning: 37:43 Yeah, I love it. Super interesting, so I’m taking it away from here for a minute. So Socrates, they say is one of the first to break down the concept of happiness, which comes back to those neurotransmitters, dopamine, serotonin, and actually anandamide is another one. What he talks about is there’s four levels, so I break this idea down. The first one is material objects, and he called it Laetus, I think the first level of happiness, which means material objects. So, I’m very happy when I’m sitting on my couch because I’d rather sit on my couch than on the wood floor, but it’s temporary. It’s not stable.

  38:17 Then he talks about ego-bound achievement, which so many of us are raised that way that we find happiness by success and doing well. Then the third level is doing good in this world, which I know we’re big believers in that, but it’s also temporary because every time you do something good, you need to do it again and again, and that’s where you get the dopamine hit from doing it, which they’re real happiness, those neurotransmitters. But he said the ultimate level of happiness is the fourth level, which is transcendence, which is becoming, and who are you becoming?

  38:47 I wasn’t sure if it would fit today, but I’d like to just put that in there. That is where real, real happiness is, because wherever you are, that’s who you are, and that’s always there. That’s stable and long-lasting, when we’re always focusing on becoming. That’s why we bring that up a lot. It’s who are you and who are you becoming? Being aware of these God-given gifts that we’ve been given and understanding what those are and how are you learning truth so that you can become the best version of yourself, and we don’t even know who that is. There’s no end goal there.

  39:17 That’s what the journey is, constantly learning, being a disciple of Christ and constantly learning. To me, sometimes we think the gospel is some destination we’re trying to get to, whereas instead, it’s a constant journey where the light, if we will allow the Lord, he will mold us and sculpt us and we’ll evolve as a human being. So in the end, we’re doing all of this work to help others, but we’re the ones benefiting from all of this because we’re becoming, as we learn in this life. That ties back to the learning again. The more we learn, the more we become, the more we take that knowledge and wisdom with us.

Hank Smith: 39:51 Two things. One, it seems that Mormon has a mission statement. He knows who he is. The word discipline comes with being a disciple. So, two questions. One, personal mission statements. Two, how do you become disciplined, keeping the main thing, the main thing?

Dr. Craig Manning: 40:07 Yeah. To me, what’s jumping out as you’re saying that, I really see that too. What I often draw on the board with people I’m working with is knowing who you are, which is being real and being truthful. Tying back to everything we talk about, you’ve got to know who you are and know the truth. Only once you know who you are, can you know what you really want in life, and that creates the journey. That creates that mission statement, so to speak, of what your values and what you care about, and it’s not about all these other things that make you happy. It’s really knowing who you are and who you’re becoming. It’s the becoming that really ultimately makes you happy. Who are you and who are you becoming?

  40:42 Becoming like Christ is the highest level of happiness. Think about, John, something you said about the farmer. If you plant the seeds and you do this and you work on these skills and you work on building these good habits and you work on the wisdom and knowledge and you work hard to learn and grow, you end up this high functioning human being in the end. If you work on yourself, you become like Christ, you become high functioning.

  41:07 To me, that’s the gospel in action. It’s not something that we do because we’re told to do it. We’re doing this because it actually benefits us at such a massive level, we don’t even realize the lessons we’re learning as we go through these experiences and who we’re becoming. We go and do these high adventure trips because it helps us all to become better over time.

Hank Smith: 41:31 Craig, let’s move to chapter 6. John brought up, the people began to be distinguished by ranks according to riches and education. Some were in poverty and they couldn’t get an education because they were in poverty. There’s lots of pride, but yet there’s lots of humility. Then shockingly, verse 14, the church starts to break up because of all these class distinctions.

Dr. Craig Manning: 41:57 I think I know what you’re getting at there.

Dr. Craig Manning: 42:00 When we’re becoming like Christ. We don’t need those CEO, those class distinction titles to define our identity. Our identity’s tied into the person we are, and what negates the pride cycle is, when you’re good with who you are you don’t need other people to tell you who you are. You don’t need their approval anymore. We don’t need the fame and we don’t need the power because we’re good living our life and we know that happiness comes from that.

Hank Smith: 42:25 Verse 13: Some were lifted up in pride, others were exceedingly humble. Some fight back, they go after the aggression, others don’t attack after being attacked, but were humble and penitent before God. John, you’re right. It’s getting chaotic here before the Savior’s visit.

John Bytheway: 42:44 When we saw some oneness under Lachoneus, one body, one mind, one heart, Zion, verse 12 is the opposite. They’re breaking up ranks. I really love this phrase: “Their chances for learning.” It’s not their capacity for learning, it’s their opportunities, and some just didn’t have that. I have to go to the Perpetual Education Fund because the Philippines, where I served my mission, was one of the first places that that took hold. And I had mission companions.

  43:15 My standard of living from a middle class family in Utah went down to be in the Philippines, to have no air conditioning, to have cold water. And some of my companions, their standard of living came up to be on a mission. I came home to hot water and refrigeration. Some of my companions went back to poverty. The Perpetual Education Fund, one of my former companions, is in charge of a school over there called ACE, and it is so fun to hear the stories of what that has done for people to increase their opportunities for learning. I think that is the most Zion idea, to give people the Perpetual Education Fund, opportunities for learning around the world. Such a Zion thing for our brothers and sisters. We used to donate, and now I think it’s self-sustaining.

Dr. Craig Manning: 44:12 Wow, that’s incredible.

Hank Smith: 44:15 I remember when President Hinckley brought that up. As a teenager I didn’t know really how terrible the world was for some people. This was a chance.

John Bytheway: 44:25 Some of my companions, they’re earning 10 times more than they could’ve before. They are now taking opportunities to bless the poor, which every Christian is supposed to do. It’s so cool to see what that has done. And it’s not only in the Philippines, it’s all over now. But it’s such a great opportunity to help our brothers and sisters have opportunities for learning.

Dr. Craig Manning: 44:46 I love that, too.

Hank Smith: 44:48 Craig, in chapter seven verse five, the people yield to the power of Satan. They turn from their righteousness in verse eight and then this phrase: “Like the dog to his vomit.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 45:02 Yes. Yep.

Hank Smith: 45:04 Such an interesting phrase. Could you be more descriptive, Mormon? What are you trying to say?

John Bytheway: 45:10 I’ve asked my students before, how many of you deleted an app because it took too much of your time? And almost all of them have raised their hand. And then I said, “How many of you have re-downloaded that app?” And almost all of them raised their hand. Why do we regress? Have you ever seen an athlete? They’re moving forward, they’re making progress, and then they fall back.

Dr. Craig Manning: 45:30 One other there in verse six. Secret combination. I just have a pet thing about that secrecy thing. I know it’s come up multiple times. But I think what happens, coming back to this regression, is you tied it back to the word discipline. We get to this point that we think we have arrived. And this is where some of the theme that’s going on here is the status and the ranks and everything. We’re all trying to think we’ve arrived and think we get to this place. That now we’re done and we can be lazy again and not have to work, and we’re above other people, and we’re entitled to this. This sort of mentality we’re seeing, and that’s what separates us and divides us and puts us into this perpetual competition with other people all the time. And it’s dangerous. And I think that’s where we get to this place that we’re not continually working on ourselves and working on getting better, and we’ve lost that learning.

  46:18 We think we’ve arrived. That’s probably the best way I can say it, is in athletics, when people yield is they think they’ve arrived and they don’t want to have to put the work in anymore. They don’t want to keep learning and they don’t want to keep getting better. And then when you get in that place, you become territorial and you’re trying to defend your turf all the time. And you become this aggressive person because you feel like you’re losing that spot or that power that you’ve once had whereas, if we stay humble and we keep learning, we don’t arrive. We’re just constantly learning and trying to get better every day. The becoming never ends. We’re always trying to become like Christ, to the day that the Lord takes us to the next life. It’s always ongoing.

  46:57 To me, the biggest thing that I see as a red flag: when people stop learning, that is always a concern because then they start looking to be territorial and build their fences and what is theirs in separation to working together and trusting others. But that is always the red flag. When people stop learning, it’s a concern. When people are learning, we can keep progressing. And I think that’s where the humility is tied to learning for me throughout all of this, but especially towards the end here. Can I also address the secret combinations? It worries me so much because what do we need to hide? If we’re building up truth, I feel like that’s the opposite of truth. When you’re building off truth, we don’t need to hide anything. When you’re building off truth, you’re never afraid at any point in time for any question. You can give your phone to anyone to look at that phone at any point in time.

  47:44 There’s nothing to hide. It’s such a peaceful, freeing way to live, when you live off truth. There’s never anything to hide. You always are open to things. But when you have these secret combinations, who are you to hide stuff from? And it’s like this complex web you’re trying to keep up this whole time of which lie or whatever needs to be hidden from everybody. I’m not smart enough to handle that. I can’t function that way. It doesn’t work for me. I’m just so transparent to the point my wife doesn’t tell me about Christmas gifts she’s got hidden away because I can’t keep secrets. I’m horrible. I just got in trouble for this the other day. Have the bandwidth mentally. I have enough good things I want to focus on without trying to hide things. It just complicates everybody’s life when you’re hiding things.

Hank Smith: 48:29 I remember Elder Holland saying something to the effect of, “One of the greatest gifts you can have, the peace of conscience when you are alone with your memories.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 48:41 Yes.

Hank Smith: 48:42 Craig, one last question, and this will be more of a personal question. This is 3 Nephi 7:21: “There were some who were converted to the Lord, as many were converted, did truly signify unto the people that they had been visited by the power and spirit of God, which was in Jesus Christ, in whom they believed.” There’s their rock. They’re holding onto this truth. It has staying power. I think our listeners would be interested in your experience, how you can say that, “I’ve been visited by the power of the Spirit of God and I believe in Jesus Christ.”

Dr. Craig Manning: 49:20 For me, the answer to that is the specificity in prayer. When I pray and I’m specific and I’m asking real questions that I’ve thought through, I am consistently shocked at how He answers when I communicate with that sort of specificity. Why specificity? Because that means I’m being deliberate, I’m intentional, and I’ve thought through it and I’ve put work in. I’m not flippant at all. I’m careful and I’m communicating with the Lord, and I’ve put work in. And that, to me, I was taught once is what faith is. It’s mental exertion. And so I put the mental exertion in. I’ve thought through it. I’m trying to figure it out. Pray with specificity, and I’m continually shocked that He answers with specificity when I do that.

  50:04 And to me, the things that He’s taught me and the things that He continues to teach me in my life, and the opportunities in the life, and the wife I’ve been blessed to be living with all this time, and the kids. There’s nothing in me that has any doubts that this isn’t true. I’m a member of this church because that’s where I find truth and I know the absolute peace. You just said peace. To me, that is a big end goal, if there is an end goal, is peace for me.

  50:33 I have so much peace living the gospel of Jesus Christ in my life. I know truth is what negates fear, and I’m super grateful for learning all these life lessons. As I learn all of this I realize that happiness is created ourselves, and we create our happiness by how we articulate our lives in the world around us. That there’s no bigger car or bigger house that creates happiness. We create happiness ourselves. And we can only do that when we’re really truthful with ourselves, what really makes us happy. So very grateful for the gospel. The Lord brought me over here and showed me the truth. And I think I’ve been seeking truth for a long time. And He brought me here and showed me the truth, and I appreciate the opportunity on this podcast with the both of you. So thank you.

Hank Smith: 51:23 We loved having you, Craig. John, what a great day.

John Bytheway: 51:27 Changed my life. I’m going to be so much more careful in my prayers and I’m going to say, “Is it accurate?” Before I comment on the news or sports or politics or whatever. Such good advice.

Hank Smith: 51:37 Absolutely wonderful, Craig. We’re blessed to have had you here. I’m sure our listeners are feeling the same way. If you want to, come onto YouTube and tell Craig what you think. We’ll send him those comments. I think he would love to hear from you. With that, we want to thank Dr. Craig Manning for joining us today. We of course want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. And with every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. John, I was looking at 3 Nephi 8: “There arose a great storm, such has never had been known in all the land.”

John Bytheway: 52:18 It’s coming, folks.

Hank Smith: 52:20 Yep. Things are about to get exciting, so join us next week on followHIM.

  52:26 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. On our website you’ll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments.

  52:51 The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else. If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 53:21 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.