John Bytheway: 00:00 Part two with Dr. Justin Top: Alma 53 through 63.

  00:06 Over Memorial Day weekend, I saw a bunch of wonderful stories. One of them, Hank, was about Elder Maxwell that you read. One of them showed President Nelson as an officer in Korea supervising MASH hospitals. A long time ago, there was a TV show called MASH, and I remember one time hearing something I never forgot, and it was the colonel, and he said something like this: “All I remember is what they taught me in command school. Number one, in a war, young men die. And number two, doctors can’t do anything about number one.”

  00:46 And I don’t know why I remember that, but this is an astonishing event and that’s how they describe it, that none of the Stripling Warriors were perished, while a thousand others were slain. But the point for all of us, I guess, ends up in verse 27: Put your trust in God continually. The Abinadis and the Jobs and the others suffered in life, but that doesn’t mean God isn’t there.

Hank Smith: 01:13 Another principle I get from this whole story, chapter 57 specifically, is the way we view our youth and the energy they can give. Verse 20: the Army was about to give way. Sounds like the adults were pretty tired. And then here comes this group of youth who gives so much energy to the adults. That’s one thing we could draw out of this is, in our own wards and stakes, not to look at the youth as problems or as, “Man, if they would just not be youth anymore, that would be great,” but see them as this great energy for the church, that they have a lot to give.

John Bytheway: 01:51 It’s interesting that President Nelson used these very stories to say, in 2018, “I am inviting every young woman and every young man between the ages of 12 and 18 in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to enlist in the youth battalion of the Lord to help gather Israel, which is the greatest challenge, the greatest cause, the greatest work on earth today. I’m glad you brought that up.

  02:19 Here’s President Nelson saying the youth are going to help us do this and inviting them to be a modern group of Stripling Warriors.

Dr. Justin Top: 02:27 Chapter 58, we get another one of these similar types of stories. This is a little different than last time, because the last story, the Nephites started out in this place of advantage and then were taken by surprise. In this one, it’s different. They’re really getting neglected. They’re not getting the supplies they need, they’re not getting support from the government, and they’re just hanging on by their fingernails, basically.

  02:51 In verse six: “And the Lamanites were sallying forth against us from time to times, resolving by stratagem to destroy us. Nevertheless, we could not come to battle with them because their retreats and their strongholds, and it came to pass that we did wait in these difficult circumstances for the space of many months, even until we were about to perish for the want of food.” They’re in a bad situation: losing ground, they’re trying the best they can to hold on. Now again, think about being like this in your life, being at these times in your life where you’re just barely surviving.

  03:24 In verse nine: “And now the cause of these, our embarrassments, or the cause of why they did not send more strength unto us, we knew not. Therefore, we were grieved and also filled with fear, lest by any means, the judgments of God should come upon our land to our overthrow and utter destruction. A lot of discouragement here, but their way of dealing with it is really important.

  03:45 “Therefore, we did pour out our souls in prayer to God that He would strengthen us and deliver us out of the hands of our enemies, yea, and also give us strength that we might retain our cities and our lands and our possessions for the support of our people.”

  04:02 So they’re begging, “God, we don’t know how this is going to go. We can’t see how it’s going to get solved, but we’re trusting you.” And in the process of that, they get a spiritual confirmation. “Yea, it came to pass that the Lord our God, did visit us with assurances that He would deliver us, yea, insomuch that He did speak peace to our souls and did grant unto us great faith and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance in Him. And we did take courage with our small force which we had received and were fixed with the determination to conquer our enemies and to maintain our lands and our possessions and our wives and our children, the cause of our liberty.”

  04:43 Even though the external circumstances aren’t good, they choose to make the best of it and focus on controlling the things that they can, which is their faith.

Hank Smith: 04:54 That spiritual witness turns into a fixed determination. I really love that little connection. I’m barely holding on here, pour out my soul to God. He speaks assurance, peace, faith, and hope, and I turn that into a fixed determination to keep going. It’s a great model on how to take on big time struggle.

John Bytheway: 05:17 I think, too, Hank and Justin, there’s a lot of times in life when all of us feel like we’re running out, we haven’t got strength, we haven’t got energy, we haven’t got what it takes. And I think verse 11, I underlined, it could be one of the most beautiful verses in the war chapters: “Assurance, deliverance, peace, faith, hope, deliverance.” That’s a lot of really wonderful words in just a short verse. That causes them to hang on.

Dr. Justin Top: 05:46 Now, we get more of that in verse 32. Our armies are small, we can’t maintain. There’s too many cities, we’re spread too thin, but we trust in our God, who has given us victory over those lands. So we’ve had these victories in the past. This chapter has another story of a great strategy where they lure the Lamanites out and sneak back and take the city and so on. This is the constant story, battle after battle, and sometimes they feel confident and other times they’re overwhelmed.

  06:15 The last real portion that we get about the Stripling Warriors in verse 39: “And those sons of the people of Ammon of whom I have so highly spoken are with me in the city of Manti, and the Lord has supported them, yea, and kept them from falling by the sword, insomuch that even one soul has not been slain.” After all these battles, still not a one of them. “But behold, they have received many wounds.”

  06:42 “Nevertheless, they stand fast in that liberty wherewith God has made them free, and they’re strict to remember the Lord, their God, from day to day. Yea, they do observe to keep His statutes and His judgments and His commandments continually, and their faith is strong in the prophecies concerning that which is to come.” This is the story of the Stripling Warriors: again and again and again, they win when they shouldn’t. They’re outnumbered. They’re not experienced. They have no business doing so well.

  07:17 I was in Washington D.C recently and I went to the World War II Memorial there on the Mall and it’s divided into two parts: there’s the European Theater and the Pacific Theater. And on the side of the Pacific Theater there’s a quote that I think really applies well to the Stripling Warriors.

  07:33 It’s actually a quote about the battle of Midway. Now if you know the Battle of Midway, this is one of those similar types of stories where the United States had no right winning that battle. Way outnumbered, better technology, better forces, but a series of miracles come into play. The Allied forces are able to defeat the Japanese there and it really, really changes the course of the war.

  07:58 And there’s a quote in that memorial, and this is by an author named Walter Lord: it said, “They had no right to win, yet they did; and in doing so, they changed the course of a war. Even against the greatest of odds, there is something in the human spirit, a magic blend of skill, faith, and valor that can lift men from certain defeat to incredible victory.”

  08:25 And I would suggest to add to that that it’s not just the human spirit: it’s when that human spirit comes in contact with divine spirit, and the soul is able to communicate with the divine and to be nourished by God’s love and grace and find that courage that helps them push through when it’s hard. And that applies not just to physical battle, but to all of these struggles that we go through in our lives. Accessing the grace of God: that’s the answer.

John Bytheway: 08:58 Wow, Justin. Thanks for bringing up Midway. There were some real miracles: the scout plane whose radio was broken that found the American fleet but couldn’t tell anybody about it, so it was delayed till he flew back. The code that the American sent out, the AF is having trouble with their water condensers, even though they weren’t, but they thought that AF was what the enemy was using to describe Midway. It was such a stratagem and it worked. It’s hard to look at that and not think they had some divine help with what happened at Midway. So I like that quotation.

Hank Smith: 09:30 Justin, John, before we move on from the Stripling Warriors, I wanted to talk about one thing and see what you both think about it. It’s something I’ve been thinking about over the years of reading the Book of Mormon.

  09:41 It seems to me, Justin, you can correct me here, that these Stripling Warriors changed the trajectory of the war that Mormon, at least, is highlighting. Things were heading in the wrong direction, and then this group came in and really turned it around. Even Captain Moroni getting this letter gives him a boost of energy. And I go back to Ammon, Aaron, Omner and Himni saying, “We want to go on a mission to the Lamanites.” And everyone’s saying, “You don’t want to go on a mission to the Lamanites. It’d be better to kill them than to go preach to them.”

  10:14 And yet because those sons of Mosiah went on that mission, if you think about it this way, they were really saving themselves. They were saving their own children by going on that mission, because the way it unfolds is that the children of those they converted or taught end up saving the Nephites. Be thinking about that, and I’ll tell a quick story that I think both of you already know.

  10:40 And that is that when Parley P. Pratt went on a mission to Toronto, Canada, his wife was sick, he didn’t really want to go, I don’t think, but he went anyway, and he baptized John Taylor and a group of saints up there. Well, when John Taylor moves to Kirtland, Parley P. Pratt has lost some confidence or some faith in Joseph Smith, and it’s John Taylor who kind of grabs Parley P. Pratt and says, “Get back on board here.” So when Parley P. Pratt goes on his mission, he’s actually saving himself, because he converts John Taylor, who then turns his life around.

  11:19 Maybe there’s a principle in all of this, and either of you can comment on it, that what at first looks like a sacrifice to go on a mission becomes an investment in saving yourself or saving your children or your grandchildren. Any thoughts on that?

Dr. Justin Top: 11:36 Yeah, actually, God is the master story writer. He creates these incredible journeys for each of us, and you can’t ever tell how it’s going to end. What happens at one point may show up again later on. And one of the things that I’ve loved about being a chaplain is being able to walk with people in their journeys and see this type of thing: seeds that were planted way back when that seemed like nothing then come to fruition later on and have incredible impact.

  12:06 This is what it means to have faith in the Lord, is that every little thing can matter. Things that we don’t even expect can bless our lives in ways we can’t anticipate. This is God’s grace. The scriptures say that all things work together for our good, and I don’t think we fully grasp or appreciate what that “all things” part means; but God is heavily invested in bringing about our story of grace.

Hank Smith: 12:38 I love the little… The great chess game, John and I have called it, this 5D chess where all the pieces have their own agency and he’s somehow playing this game.

John Bytheway: 12:50 I hope that people listening, don’t skip over, don’t skim over these chapters, look for these kind of messages because we are all in a spiritual warfare, if nothing else. Look at how in verse 40, they’re strict to remember the Lord their God from day to day. It’s what we’ve been asked to do, is to remember.

Hank Smith: 13:11 Justin, with that, walk us through the rest of the war chapters, here. There’s an interesting back and forth. Moroni’s frustrated.

Dr. Justin Top: 13:19 Yeah. I want to bring out, in verse one of chapter 59, this is after Moroni finishes reading the letter, and it says his reaction is mixed, but he’s really inspired by the story of the 2000 Stripling Warriors, and he tells the armies and the people, and it rejuvenates. And we know that these kind of stories have the power to do that. You remember from World War II, just the picture of the flag being planted on Iwo Jima, the country was getting tired out from the war and I can only imagine how bad it was for the Nephites in this situation. They use that picture to really regenerate the spiritual energy of the country as a whole, and certainly the story of the stripling warriors has that effect on Nephi and his people.

  14:04 What I wish I could be a fly on a wall for was the people of Ammon when they got those letters. Can you imagine the gratitude to God on hearing that none of their sons had been killed? It’s mind-blowing. People who already had incredible faith, having that confirmed. Really powerful.

  14:29 The rest of chapter 59 sets up what you said about Captain Moroni getting frustrated. It’s worse. They start losing more ground again and they’re not getting provisions and you can only hang on by your fingernails so long. Moroni finally gets to the point where he’s had it. He’s done.

  14:52 In verse eight, he talks about this, that they’re losing ground and their armies were so numerous that the remainder of the people of Nephihah were obliged to flee before them. They’re fleeing before the army of the Lamanites. And they came even and joined the army of Moroni. So they’re fleeing.

  15:09 And here’s this verse we talked about before: “And now as Moroni had supposed that there should be men sent to the city of Nephihah, to the assistance of the people to maintain that city, and knowing that it was easier to keep the city from falling into the hands of the Lamanites than to retake it from them, he supposed that they would easily maintain that city.”

  15:29 Moroni, he was under the assumption that Nephihah was in good shape, that they had been reinforced and they should have enough to maintain their city, but no reinforcements had ever come, and so they lost the city, and that causes problems, because now it’s harder to get it back.

John Bytheway: 15:45 Such a great principle in that verse there, and you mentioned the President Benson quote: “When it comes to the law of chastity, it’s better to prepare and prevent than it is to repair and repent.” I think it’s the same principle as “An ounce of preparation is better than a pound of cure.” This would be a lot easier if we could keep the city from falling and think of the timing, the resources, the blood, the treasure, however we put it, to try to retake a city, than to just prevent it from being taken in the first place. And think of that. Spiritually, there’s some great applications in there,

Dr. Justin Top: 16:21 Spiritually and mentally, emotionally, relationships: all of those things, being proactive is much better than being reactive.

Hank Smith: 16:30 I like that.

Dr. Justin Top: 16:31 We ready for 60?

Hank Smith: 16:32 Yep.

Dr. Justin Top: 16:33 Now, Moroni’s frustrated, he’s had it, and he’s going to let Pahoran, who’s the chief judge, he’s going to let him know his frustration. Now, I love this little back and forth between Moroni and Pahoran, because the psychologist in me just loves to dissect this and see what’s going on inside their heads.

  16:51 Now, this goes back, we sort of introduced the idea of lenses with Moroni and Ammoron; but now we’re going to see how Captain Moroni, his own frustration, how it’s going to really distort his lenses. And we talk about Captain Moroni. He’s an amazing guy, but he’s also still human, and that frustration, he’s really going to take it out on Pahoran. As we look at this, we’re going to see in his letter some of the common mental distortions that we make that cause problems for us.

  17:20 In this letter, he talks to Pahoran about his frustration. Let’s pick it up in verse three: “And now behold, I say unto you that myself and also my men and also Helaman and his men have suffered exceedingly great sufferings, yea, even hunger, thirst and fatigue and all manner of afflictions. But behold, were this all we had suffered, we would not murmur or complain: but behold, great has been the slaughter among our people. Yea, thousands have fallen by the sword, while it might have otherwise been, if ye had rendered unto our armies sufficient strength and succor for them. Yea, great has been your neglect towards us.”

  17:58 Two things happening. Number one, we’re suffering, so the focus becomes on your own suffering. That’s a really common, natural thing for us to do. When things get hard, that’s all we can see. We can’t see past our own frustration. But what starts to happen is we start to change this narrative and say, “And it’s your fault. We got to have somebody to blame for it, so it’s your fault that we’re suffering.” That’s frustration and it’s focus on your frustration and it’s blaming it on others. That’s one of the common things that we do.

  18:31 In verse seven: “Can you think to sit upon your thrones in a state of thoughtless stupor while your enemies are spreading the work of death around you?” You don’t care. He’s making an assumption here. “You’re sitting back there relaxing while we’re suffering. You have it easy.” Have you ever done this in your brain with somebody? Like, “Oh, you just don’t even care about me.”

  18:53 Verse nine: “But behold, this is not all. Ye have withheld your provisions from them, insomuch that they have fought and bled out their lives because of their great desires which they had for the welfare of this people. Yea, and this they have done when they were about to perish with hunger because of your exceedingly great neglect towards them.” In other words, “You did that on purpose.” Ever used that in a relationship argument? “You did that on purpose.”

  19:21 This is what our brains do when we get all worked up. You tell yourself a story and you’re convinced it’s the truth. That emotional narrative becomes our absolute truth and it goes on and you can see at the end of verse 10 and in verse 11, the narrative is: “Because you’ve done all these things, you’re bad.” That’s the next step. Our brains tend to oversimplify and make things: people are either all bad or all good. So, “Because you did this thing, behold, could ye suppose that you could sit on your throne, and because of the exceeding goodness of God, you could do nothing and He would deliver you?” You have all these ideas that you’re so high and mighty and you’re going to be okay?

  20:04 And then in verse 12, we get this mind reading. I know what you’re thinking. I know what you’re thinking. “Do you suppose that because so many of our brethren have been killed, it is because of their wickedness?” Oh, you’re thinking they deserve this, now. This is kind of ridiculous stuff, but Moroni is just worked up. And he is an amazing person, but he still has to deal with this.

  20:24 And that’s going to all lead, this is step-by-step, that leads to eventually in verse 13 and 14 and more towards the end, “And because of this, you deserve punishment. And if you don’t change, I’m going to be the one that gives it to you.” From a psychologist’s point of view, just look at how… This happens to us all the time. Our brains work against us and cause problems.

Hank Smith: 20:47 It’s fascinating that the facts that he has, that they have not received provisions, turns into a full out story. It’s hard. I can sense you’re hesitating to make judgments on Captain Moroni. So am I. But at the same time, all he knows is the provisions haven’t come and it’s turned into a full out narrative, like you said, that he wholeheartedly believes. You can almost see him escalating as he’s writing. It starts out with, “I’m wondering why you’re being neglectful to us,” and then at the end, “I will come and slay you. I will come kill you.” Going, “Whoa, that escalated.”

Dr. Justin Top: 21:29 I love this about Captain Moroni. I love that he struggles with this as well, because if you were to put yourself just in his perspective, then he is coming from this place of righteousness and being neglected and he’s justified in his anger; but the truth is, he just doesn’t have the big picture. And all of us get like that sometimes, too. And I love reading this story because somebody as amazing as Captain Moroni can struggle with this. And I’ll have times where I’ll get in an argument with my wife or one of the kids and then later on I’ll be like, “Where did that come from? I don’t even really think that way.”

John Bytheway: 22:04 I love that Moroni goes right to thrones. We all know how they feel about the king men, but, “You guys are sitting back there on your thrones,” or you could say “recliners,” “while we are out here doing this.” I see thrones in verse seven, verse 11, verse 21. Accuses them of just sitting back there on their thrones.

Dr. Justin Top: 22:25 What an amazing insight. It’s like a subtle jab. You’re becoming like the king men. Yeah, I like that.

John Bytheway: 22:30 That we just got away from.

Dr. Justin Top: 22:32 One of the other things that happens is when you get so frustrated and the other person is wrong and they’re doing bad and you start to elevate yourself a little bit, right? In verse 28, it’s very much, “And God is on my side in this. Yea, behold, I do not fear your power nor your authority, but it is my God whom I fear, and it is according to His commandments that I do take my sword to defend the cause of my country.” We often find ourselves in this state of what we consider righteous indignation that can sometimes blind us in some ways to the interaction and the relationship and other perspectives.

Hank Smith: 23:10 Justin, I think you’re right. This happens in relationships all the time. I remember being newly married and thinking, my wife should be able to read my mind. You should be able to know why I’m so angry and frustrated. And why are you not responding to this? And all of a sudden I come up with this narrative: “You don’t love me, you don’t care about me.” And then I find out, “Oh, no, she just had her phone off.”

Dr. Justin Top: 23:38 Your brain brings in all these examples. “You always this, and you never this,” and none of that’s true, but in that moment it really feels true.

Hank Smith: 23:47 What do you do with that, Justin, when your emotions are taking you? I mean, first you have to notice it’s even happening.

Dr. Justin Top: 23:53 Yeah, the answer to this is grace, and that takes training: to train yourself to have grace for others, have grace for yourself, and receive grace from others and from God. In this situation, we talk about this with relationships with others, but this story plays out the same with our relationship with God, and sometimes we’re frustrated with God, and we do all these things in our narrative with him. This is what leads us to greater doubts and feeling distance from the church and from our relationship with God.

  24:23 This all sets up so nicely, because Pahoran in chapter 61 is the ideal response. To answer your question, “How do we deal with this?” Well, we learn to think like Pahoran does, because if Pahoran really was the kind of guy that Moroni paints him out to be, he could very easily be really upset about this. Like, “How dare you? I’m your boss.” I picture something like this happening in the military. Whew, that would not go over well if you spoke to your superior officer like this.

Hank Smith: 24:58 It would not go over well.

Dr. Justin Top: 25:01 No, no.

Hank Smith: 25:03 If you go to Alma 60:33, he, even in his emotion, says he’s getting revelation. “The Lord says to me, ‘If those whom you have appointed your governors do not repent of their sins and iniquities, you will go up to battle against them.'”

Dr. Justin Top: 25:18 Yeah. I wonder how often that happens. Revelation is more than just a feeling. My testimony of the church, though, it comes from feeling the Spirit, it’s really balanced by a lot of other things besides how does it make me feel? It makes sense. And there’s a certain degree of light and grace that comes with it, and that’s something we have to always be careful for, because our brains, our natural man minds do trick us sometimes.

Hank Smith: 25:46 Yeah, sometimes your anger can feel like…

John Bytheway: 25:50 Righteous indignation or something.

Hank Smith: 25:52 Yeah. “The Lord is telling me I’m right.” Is He?

John Bytheway: 25:56 And the Lord’s like, “Moroni, let off your steam. I’m going to let you know what’s really going on back there. Pahoran’s been kicked out. He’s not even there.” The Lord lets him know in time that the situation is not what you thought it was.

Dr. Justin Top: 26:08 I would say, too, that it kind of is: it’s just not who he thought it was. There are plenty of people who deserve this and what Pahoran’s going to do is redirect this zeal to where it needs to be rather than get all offended and it reminds me of Paul who’s fighting against the Christians and then God says, “Let’s redirect you a little bit [inaudible 00:26:30] zeal.”

John Bytheway: 26:30 Redirect some of that energy.

Dr. Justin Top: 26:32 Same principle here with Captain Moroni.

Hank Smith: 26:34 Justin, how do we deal with this? Is that what comes next?

Dr. Justin Top: 26:38 Pahoran shows us a great example. His response is full of grace. We can really learn how to respond when somebody comes at us like this, how to respond in a way that’s really helpful, because we saw with Ammoron and Captain Moroni what doesn’t work. Let’s take a look here at what he says: “I, Pahoran, who am the chief governor of this land, do send these words unto Moroni, the chief captain over the army. Behold, I say unto you, Moroni, that I do not joy in your great affliction. Yea, it grieves my soul.” In other words, empathy.

  27:16 First thing is: I acknowledge your experience and I’m really sad about it and he’s not diving right into, “How dare you? What about my perspective? What about me? What about me?” It’s like really feeling this sorrow for what they’re going through.

Hank Smith: 27:34 There’s some validation there, too, right, Justin?

Dr. Justin Top: 27:37 Absolutely. Instead of pushing back on that emotion, he’s pulling it a little bit and saying, “Okay, I see that, and that’s okay.” Verse three: “But behold, there are those who do joy in your afflictions. Yea, insomuch that they have risen up in rebellion against me. And also those of my people who are freemen, yea, and those who have risen up are exceedingly numerous.”

  28:02 The next thing he does is he acknowledges this is a problem. There is a problem going on right now. Doesn’t minimize, doesn’t diminish. This is a problem that needs to be addressed. Then he goes on to explain, this is my perspective of the problem, and he talks about how they’ve been driven out, they’ve taken over Zarahemla and Pahoran’s been hiding at this point and he’s trying to gather forces together to support him, but he still doesn’t have enough to retake the judgment seat. Explaining his own perspective.

  28:36 Verse nine: I like this. He says, “And now in your epistle, you have censured me.” You’ve been pretty harsh, “but it mattereth not. I am not angry, but do rejoice in the greatness of your heart.” So in other words, he acknowledges, “Okay, you came at me kind of hard,” but he says, “but I know you,” and expresses confidence. “Because I know you. I’m not offended.”

  29:02 How many times do we need to do that? Need to remind ourselves, “Oh wait, this person I’m talking to is a good person who cares about me,” whether it’s a spouse or a family member. Our narrative gets all worked up, but we need to be reminded, “Hey, they actually are on my side here.”

  29:18 He states his commitment, and this is his response to exactly the way Moroni said it in his: “I, Pahoran, do not seek for power, save only to retain my judgment seat that I may preserve the rights and liberties of my people. My soul standeth fast in that liberty, in the which God hath made us free.” He says, hey, this is what I stand for, here. I’m committed to this.

  29:44 And then from this point on, every verse in the rest of this chapter, this is where it gets amazing. I went through and I circled all the times I saw the word “we” or “us.” Moroni went into it like it’s going to be me against you, but now Pahoran invites Moroni to join with him: “And now, behold, we will resist wickedness even unto bloodshed.” Verse 11: “We would not shed the blood of our brethren if they would not rise up in rebellion against us.” Verse 12: “We would subject ourselves…” So all of a sudden, it’s not who’s right; it’s, “Let’s figure this out together.” Verse 14: “Let us resist them with our swords.”

  30:30 And then this is also symbolic of how Christ comes in and how His grace comes in and wraps us in His loving arms. Go back to the example of Paul who’s resisting God and fighting and he finds out that he’s wrong, and you could picture God who comes into his life and says, “Hey, let’s do this together now. Let’s go together and solve this problem.” And what happens to Paul? He becomes this amazing advocate for Christianity and does amazing things.

  30:59 This chapter from Pahoran teaches us so much about the grace of God, and if we can copy this, use these principles in our lives, think of all the conflict, internal and external, we could avoid by following his example.

Hank Smith: 31:14 I think about a parent with an angry teenager. Chapter 60 comes at you in your face, and to respond with empathy and then, “Look, we’re on the same team.” I think Pahoran is a great example of a very calm response to a very angry accusation. I have a tendency, I don’t know about either of you, but if someone comes at me with an angry accusation, I usually escalate the anger. But this calm response defuses the situation. He says, “Look, we are on the same team. I promise.”

John Bytheway: 31:48 “I’m not on a throne. I’m on a desk with a squeaky chair.” I love that, “I rejoice in the greatness of your heart,” that he’s able to read that and go, “Moroni, what a great heart. He doesn’t understand what’s going on here, but I love this man’s heart.” And then thank you for pointing that out, how it becomes we. This is us. We’d say to my kids sometimes, my wife and I, “This isn’t us against you: this is all of us against Satan. We are on the same team.”

Dr. Justin Top: 32:20 It reminds me of a story that my wife has told in a talk for church before, but she tells this story of being at the mall with one of the kids. We call her Jack. She wanted to go into one of the stores. Of course, no, it’s time to go home. She goes into this having a tantrum there on the floor because she wanted to go into that store. And it was not a little tantrum, it was a full-on tantrum.

  32:44 I don’t know how you would respond in that situation. For me, I’d try and reason with her. In that situation, it’s not going to work for her. She’s worked up. I’d try and reason with her and then I’d try and be firm. “Well, you come right now,” or this or that, and then maybe get Child Protective Services called on me. Maybe I would be more likely to give in. “Okay, whatever. Just stop complaining. Stop your tantrum.”

  33:05 But my wife, she pulled up a chair and sat down next to her, so she’s sitting there screaming on the floor and my wife sat there, and every once in a while would stroke her back a little bit, and there, waiting until she’s ready. And finally, she calms down. The whimpers die down, and my wife whispers something in her ear and she hops right up, takes my wife by the hand, and they go. And I wonder how many times we’re like that with God: we’re in our anger and our frustration and we have our ways of seeing things, but God’s always there waiting, waiting until we can get in this place where we can hear Him and take Him by the hand. That’s His grace.

Hank Smith: 33:46 I’m sure both of you remember way back in October of 2006, almost, what, 18 years ago, Elder Bednar gave a talk called “And Nothing Shall Offend Them.” This is a great talk to go read, if you want to, this week. He mentions this exchange between Moroni and Pahoran, and then he says this: “One of the greatest indicators of our own spiritual maturity is revealed in how we respond to the weaknesses, the inexperience, and the potentially offensive actions of others. A thing, an event or an expression may be offensive, but you and I can choose not to be offended and to say with Pahoran, ‘It mattereth not.'” So hard. John, this is so easy for you, to be just so calm in the face of anger.

John Bytheway: 34:38 No, I just turn my mic off.

Hank Smith: 34:41 It does not come naturally to me. It’s something I’ve been… I am hoping a weakness that can become a strength, one day. He mentions Elder Maxwell called us, as members of the church, we are the “clinical material” for each other’s growth and development. We bump into each other and people in the ward might say something offensive. I say something offensive. The bishop says something offensive. And what are we going to do at those moments? Such an inspired part of the Book of Mormon. John, do you want to comment on how natural it is for you?

John Bytheway: 35:13 You know more about this than I do, Justin, but sometimes people have to let off steam, and sometimes you’ll find that they come up with their own solution once they get all the steam out and they feel like they’ve been heard and then they… “Maybe I should… Yeah, that’s a good idea.” But first they had to let off all that steam. I love this story for so many reasons, and I love that Mormon would put it in there, because he gives this tribute to Moroni, names his own son Moroni, and he wants us to see Captain Moroni, as well. Here’s the authentic Moroni, unedited. Here he comes.

Hank Smith: 35:54 Justin, how do we do this better in our family relationships? You must be the pro at it. You’ve got your wife and you have 11 children. You’re a trained psychologist. You’re a chaplain.

Dr. Justin Top: 36:09 When you practice enough, it’s just a piece of cake.

Hank Smith: 36:12 Yeah?

Dr. Justin Top: 36:13 There’s a phrase that we find all through the Book of Mormon, and that is this idea of being stirred up to remembrance. This applies to our battles with ourself, as well: that internal part of ourself, and that’s maybe not helpful. The best we can do is keep trying, stirring ourselves up, and understand that God’s grace is there to help us be better, to help us be more graceful and loving to other people.

  36:39 But it’s also there to help us when we’re not. We don’t have to be perfect, and there are times that God doesn’t take away our challenges and he just lets us struggle. We quote Ether’s version, where, “I give unto men weakness that they may be humble. If men come unto me, I will show them their weakness and weak things become strong unto them.”

  37:01 But Paul has a version of this, it’s a little bit different, and that is in 2 Corinthians 13. Paul says, “I went before the Lord and asked him to take away my weakness,” and God’s like, “Nope. Yeah, I’m not going to.” And He says, “I’m going to let you struggle with this, because my strength is made perfect in weakness.” What an interesting thing to say. Sometimes it’s more about the struggle than it is about the outcome for us.

  37:30 What can we do? We continue to work. We acknowledge our weakness. We seek the grace of God, seek to have grace for others and for ourselves, and know that when we don’t, the grace still applies for us and is still helping us push us towards a better relationship with Him.

Hank Smith: 37:51 I’ve heard it said before that a successful marriage has two very good forgivers. You get practice at forgiving, a lot of practice at forgiving each other. John, do you think Captain Moroni went to Mormon after this is published and says, “Really? Of all the letters you put in that book?”

John Bytheway: 38:08 I know, I think it’s a federal offense to read other people’s mail, but here we are. We’ve got these letters, we’ve got Ammoron and Moroni and they’re letting each other have it, and you’re a child of hell, and see you on the battlefield and wow, what a fun book.

Hank Smith: 38:22 Captain Moroni is sure passionate.

John Bytheway: 38:25 Justin, I love what you showed me, here. I’m doing that. I’m going through all the “us” and “we” and “our,” and what a great insight. “Moroni, I am with you in this,” Pahoran is saying to Moroni. Thanks for sharing that. That’s really good.

Hank Smith: 38:41 Same team.

John Bytheway: 38:43 Look at 14 and 15. “Let us resist evil. Whatsoever evil we cannot resist with our words,” okay, diplomacy first, “such as rebellions and dissensions, let us resist them with our swords.: If that’s what it comes to. “Why are we fighting? That we may retain our freedom, that we may rejoice in,” I love this phrase, “the great privilege of our church, and in the cause of our Redeemer and our God.”

  39:10 And then there’s a phrase in 15, one of those things that’s put on a wood plaque on the wall or something, “The spirit of God, which is also the spirit of freedom.” Whoa, what a phrase. The spirit of God is the spirit of freedom, and that’s what they’re fighting for: not to force everybody to worship God the way they want, but for the liberty that they can have the privilege of their church and they can worship God.

Hank Smith: 39:36 I love that. Amazing insight. Did you guys know that Abraham Lincoln used to write angry letters and then he would put them in his desk drawer? He would never send them, so when he’s really upset, he would write what he called a “hot letter” and then they found these in his drawer after. He never sent them. He needed to get it out there, say what needs to be said, and then, “Yeah, I probably shouldn’t send that.”

Dr. Justin Top: 40:03 That’d make a great app. Nowadays with email and texts, sometimes you send them too quick, so you should have like an app that says, “Okay, you can’t send this for five days,” or whatever, to make sure you don’t regret what you wrote.

Hank Smith: 40:16 That’s a great app idea.

John Bytheway: 40:18 Hank, can I read an Abraham Lincoln quotation?

Hank Smith: 40:21 Yes,

John Bytheway: 40:21 “We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of heaven. We have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power, but we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined in the deceitfulness of our hearts that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace: too proud to pray to the God that made us.” There’s one of the letters that I’m glad he sent.

Hank Smith: 41:02 John, from that quote, I thought of the fourth verse of the Star-Spangled Banner. It’s sad we only sing the first verse, because there’s this line in the fourth verse: “Oh, thus be it ever when free men shall stand between their loved homes and the war’s desolation, blessed with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land raise the power that hath made and preserved us a nation.” Don’t forget God.

John Bytheway: 41:31 Yeah, and conquer we must when our cause it is just, and this be our motto, in God is our trust. This is what’s always bugged me about sporting events. The Star-Spangled Banner is a Q&A. We sing the Q and then we never do the A. The people in the war are asking us the question: “Does that Star-Spangled Banner yet wave o’er the land of the free and the home of the brave? Play ball.” It should end: “Here’s the answer: and this be our motto: in God is our trust; and the Star-Spangled, Banner in triumph shall wave o’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!” We rarely answer the question, except on followHIM, where today, we answer the question posed by verse one.

  42:18 When we buried my dad, the flag draped over his casket there, and the veterans came and played Taps, oh man, did a salute with the rifles. I looked over on Honeycutt Road and there was this electrical crew there with a little basket, the crow’s nest thing, and they were all standing, kind of reverently watching this happen. They didn’t know who it was from a distance, but I thought, “We’re giving dad a send-off here,” that salute, it was touching.

Hank Smith: 42:50 It’s beautiful.

Dr. Justin Top: 42:51 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 42:52 All right, Justin, walk us through the rest of this.

Dr. Justin Top: 42:55 Chapter 62 is Moroni’s response to Pahoran’s letter, and his response is all about action. Now, at first you can imagine how relieved he is, and think about how healing this has got to be for him who’s lost faith in his government to see that he’s still being led by a man of faith.

John Bytheway: 43:15 I wonder if there’s another letter after this where he said, “Hey, sorry about that. I was in a mood.”

Dr. Justin Top: 43:23 Yeah, we’ll throw Moroni a bone here and not put that one in. This is the happy ending to this story. Captain Moroni, he’s encouraged, the whole momentum changes, and now Moroni is motivated, and we get the Title of Liberty, the sequel. This is the sequel version of the same story that happened where Captain Moroni says, “Well, I can’t pull any forces away from the war to help him out,” so he goes and he raises the Standard of Liberty around.

  43:53 He’s holding this standard up and reminding the people of why they fight, but I would imagine that he’s also spreading the news about the Stripling Warriors and he’s changing the attitude toward the war, insomuch that people are willing to enlist. They’re like, “Okay, we’ve got to do this,” and they remember again how important what they’re doing is. He’s able to gather an army, go kick the king men out of Zarahemla, reinstate Pahoran, and momentum keeps going beyond that in that now they’re able to take these people who’ve joined in the cause and reinforce the war effort in other places.

  44:33 This is where we see a fizzled end to the major war section. Not that there’s not battles or anything, but now Mormon’s focus is going to shift away from these battles significantly, really is because all these bad things happened, these failures, this frustration, but it becomes a catalyst for change and growth, which then leads to this period of general peace and prosperity and where the people remember what’s important. That’s chapter 62 for him.

Hank Smith: 45:06 I don’t know if he listens to the show, but my friend Justin Sewell says, “Setbacks lead to comebacks,” and that’s what’s happened here.

Dr. Justin Top: 45:15 Absolutely. The prosperity that comes not only culminates in Pahoran getting put back in power and the armies being strengthened, but we also find in this chapter that Teancum sneaks in and he executes basically Ammoron, the king of the Lamanites, who’s really the driving force behind this big, large-scale war. That’s going to really put an end to this level of aggression from the Lamanites.

  45:44 But think about how long this has gone on. If you look at your footnotes from start to end, this is a decade plus long war. And you remember maybe from Vietnam or from the Gulf War, which wasn’t even at our doorstep, necessarily, but how tired the country gets of war and how it affects things. But imagine having that threat around you all the time. It’s got to have an impact.

  46:13 So not only do you have economic impact of the war, but you’ve got these soldiers who are coming back impacted by what they’ve seen and that’s going to affect their family life and so on, and so there’s this really fascinating verse in verse 41 that talks about how this long conflict has really affected people: “But behold, because of the exceedingly great length of the war between the Nephites and the Lamanites, many had become hardened because of the exceedingly great length of the war, and many were softened because of their afflictions insomuch that they did humble themselves before God, even in the depths of humility.”

  46:52 What a fascinating scripture. The same experience can have different effects on different people at different times and it can really disrupt the soul, either in a good way or a bad

Hank Smith: 47:05 The Come Follow Me manual says, “Put a raw egg and a potato in boiling water to help you think about how you can choose to either be softened or hardened by your trials.” Justin, I love that verse. Seems that Mormon might be saying, “You have a choice. You have a choice to make when you’re going through terribly long, difficult trials: are you going to be hardened?” And it seems like hardened is the default. If you don’t do anything, you’ll probably get hardened. You’ll probably get angry. But you can choose to be softened. You can choose to humble yourself. That’s hard to do

John Bytheway: 47:42 What Justin said, too, about these guys going home, now: I love the veterans who have served and I think they all handle it in different ways, and some of them have seen such horrific things and they compartmentalize it and put it away. Some are able to talk about it. My dad would tell you everything. But use that grace that’s so available to help you process that and move forward.

Dr. Justin Top: 48:09 I would add here: we look at this verse, and it’s easy just to make it this dichotomy like, “Oh, you can either be hardened or you can be softened,” but that’s not the end of the journey. The story is bigger than just, “Oh, the war hardened me,” and we see this with veterans all the time who come back and they carry incredible burdens that they never expected.

  48:30 It would be amazing if signing up and protecting your country was good enough to make you a hero, but man, it can change you. And that’s not just true with veterans. There are people who have been abused and have different challenges in their life and does it harden them? Well, yeah. And I don’t want this verse to seem like, “Oh, you’re bad if you let things harden you,” because that’s not the end of the story.

  48:54 We read this all through the Book of Mormon, of people whose hearts are hardened, can become softened through the preaching of the word and through some of the things we’ve talked about, like getting it out in the open, seeking healing from it, finding good leadership. All these things that we’ve talked about in these chapters about the struggles that we deal with. They apply.

  49:13 It’s okay if you’re hardened because of something, but don’t stay there. Seek the incredible healing, softening grace of Jesus Christ to overcome that.

Hank Smith: 49:27 The conjunction that Mormon uses is: “Many were hardened because of the exceedingly great length of the war.” He doesn’t say “but many were softened,” he says, “and many were softened.” That could be someone who was hardened and then softened.

Dr. Justin Top: 49:41 Or in different aspects of our life. You can be hardened in some areas and softened… I mean, this is the journey of life and why it’s so amazing. There’s all the complicated factors that we rub up against.

Hank Smith: 49:54 Doesn’t it seem, Justin, that Mormon gives a hopeful thought at the end of 62, that they have learned profound lessons through this. They are getting more rich, stronger, more prosperity, but they’re not prideful. They’re not slow to remember God. They remember the great things the Lord has done. I’m trying to get into Mormon’s head here, but he seems to be finishing with, “Phew, that was a long time, but there was some good here at the end.”

Dr. Justin Top: 50:23 Absolutely. Optimism about, “Hey, this is hard for us, but there’s hope and a good future going forward.” 63 makes me nervous. We talk about how because of their faith and their courage that helped them through the struggles, now we have this sort of happy ending. And it’s, of course, not the ending, but it’s a happy ending, a period of prosperity. Helaman goes back to his job preaching the gospel. He then passes the records along to his son, and we hear about this expansion, migration of the Nephites and settling new areas. We read about Hagoth and the ships and settling in other places.

  51:02 We may consider this as a form of post-traumatic growth: because of the struggle that’s been going on and they came out on the other side, now we see this growth that comes and the prosperity that comes because they had to step up and trust in the grace of God, and now they’re reaping the benefits of that.

Hank Smith: 51:21 What a great phrase: post-traumatic growth.

John Bytheway: 51:26 It’s fun that we spent some time with Alma talking to his sons, Helaman, Shiblon and Corianton, and they’re all mentioned here, that Shiblon died in verse 10. Corianton went off on a ship. We hope he lived happily ever after. We don’t hear from him again, and then the things were passed on to Helaman, son of Helaman.

Hank Smith: 51:47 It’s interesting that Shiblon, who is the brother of Helaman, is the one who passes the records on, almost like Helaman’s, maybe too tired, right? Shiblon’s like, “Let me take care of this for you.”

John Bytheway: 52:00 Records division. You’re records division. I’m high priest division right now.

Hank Smith: 52:04 Justin, we have covered a lot of time and material and stories. If I’m at home and I’m listening to the podcast, I’ve got my scriptures open, or maybe I’m on my commute or maybe I’m walking across campus, what are my major takeaways? What are you hoping I do differently?

Dr. Justin Top: 52:23 Struggle, conflict, internal or external is a normal, natural part of life, and though we try and avoid it as much as possible, it’s going to happen. How we embrace that, how we receive that and deal with it from a place of moral courage, that’s what really matters, and the most important source for us to seek that moral courage is through our Savior, Jesus Christ, the grace of God in our lives, and we access that through obedience, through faith, and through humbling ourselves and asking for it.

  52:57 We hear these stories of victory over insurmountable odds, and the same principles apply to us in our life, in our struggle. In whatever struggle it is, if we will reach out for the grace of God and be willing to receive what he has for us, we’ll find greater courage to face those struggles and greater insight and endurance, strength to get through, even if we can’t get around, the challenges come in our life.

Hank Smith: 53:26 Not only survive but thrive. I think you’ve taught us a lot about that today. John, I know these are your favorite chapters. You’ve written the book on it, you and Mormon, both. What a great day.

John Bytheway: 53:39 To have a Navy chaplain here that served for that many years and talked to people. I’m so thrilled, Justin, that you would come. What a resource. Thank you for showing us stuff here, today.

Dr. Justin Top: 53:50 Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation, and especially the chapters that we’ve read. I get pretty passionate about it.

Hank Smith: 53:57 Yeah, it was wonderful. With that, we want to thank Dr. Justin Top for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen; our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen; and we always remember our founder Steve Sorensen. Join us next week. We have a new book, the Book of Helaman, coming up on followHIM.

  54:20 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. On our website, you’ll also find our two free books: Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else.

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President Russell M. Nelson: 55:15 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.