John Bytheway: 00:00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. David Boren, Alma 43 to 52.

Dr. David Boren: 00:00:06 Amalickiah, he understands leadership, he knows how to leverage emotions and tap into people’s emotions. So in verse five, “That they had been led by the flatteries of Amalickiah.” He told them exactly what they wanted to hear, whether or not he believed it. And in verse nine, we can go back and hit some of these others, but I love in verse nine, “We see the great wickedness, one very wicked man can cause to take place among the children of men.”

Hank Smith: 00:00:35 And it’s only been 20 years really that they’ve switched from Kings to Judges. We’ve gone quite a ways from Alma 1, when we made the switch, but time-wise, we haven’t covered a lot of time and it seems that there are some people who did not want that switch, and they want to go back. It’s a constant pull to go back to the way things were.

Dr. David Boren: 00:00:59 What’s really scary is in verse seven, “There were many in the church who believed the flattering words.” Guarding ourselves and really reflecting, are they tapping into my emotions and flattering me to go against what I really believe in? And we need to be really careful. We quickly forget, as it says in verse eight.

Hank Smith: 00:01:22 Mormon’s quick to point that out.

John Bytheway: 00:01:25 Yeah, this is Mormon shaking his head, “Can you believe this?”

Hank Smith: 00:01:28 Yeah, I’m doing it again.

Dr. David Boren: 00:01:29 Moroni, he was willing to stand up for what was right. I love this quote by Elder Richard G. Scott, “Develop the capacity when circumstances demand, to lay everything on the altar to defend a principle. There are so few willing to do that. The world needs men and women like you who are willing to place principle above personal gain. You can be the shining light, that righteous influence, the leaven and the loaf to increase the moral fiber of your nation.”

  00:02:00 And Moroni was that man of action, Elder Holland, one more, “Be strong. Live the gospel faithfully, even if others around you don’t live it at all. Defend your beliefs with courtesy and with compassion, but defend them.” I love that Moroni was willing to put it all on the line. And it reminds me of a quote by Elder Maxwell where he says, “Sometimes we get so busy discussing the doctrines of the gospel, that talking about them almost becomes a substitute for applying them.” He wasn’t on social media saying, “Man, I wish they would change this.” Or griping to his friends. He’s like, “I’m going to do something about this.” He was willing to put his life on the line, to defend a principle that he cared about.

Hank Smith: 00:02:45 What you pointed out earlier comes into play here because he could use anger. He could say, “Let’s all be angry at Amalickiah.” He could make it all about Amalickiah. “Let’s be angry and I’ll use that anger to control the people.” But instead, as Mormon calls it later, a higher cause. It’s bigger than anger, this is about God and freedom. I’m seeing what you pointed out to us early in 43, playing through the rest of Moroni’s strategy.

Dr. David Boren: 00:03:14 I guess I’ll point out one more thing from the Title of Liberty section, I love in verse 21 where it says, “The people came running together.” I’m just seeing all these people running together to take upon themselves this covenant. I know, Hank, you’ve run a few marathons, I’ve run a couple of them. Those that run, and cycle and row, know the power that comes from running together, from being with other people and drafting. A few years ago, my sister-in-law, bless her heart, invited me and my high school son to run a marathon with her. And at first I thought she was crazy, and looking back, she was crazy, but we said yes and we didn’t realize what we were saying yes to. It took a lot of training and it was actually really a beautiful experience with my son. One of the reasons I said yes is because I wanted to spend more time with my son, and I knew that training with him would allow us to spend a lot of time talking with each other. And what I realized is he did all the talking and I was just sucking air because I could hardly breathe, while we trained.

  00:04:24 But the day of the marathon came, and my son was… He ran cross country in high school, he was a good runner. And we started running and he had a goal, he wanted to run the marathon in under three hours and 30 minutes, and I thought he was crazy. And we started running, we felt good, and we made it to the halfway point in about an hour and 45 or 46 minutes, so we were close to our goal. Just within the next mile, he said, “Dad, I can’t keep up this pace, I got to slow down.” I was expecting just the opposite. I trained hard. I had a split second decision to make at that moment, and I’m ashamed to say that for a split second, I thought about leaving him, saying, “Okay, well see you at the finish line. Because I know they’re going to publish these times and I want to get a good time, and people are going to ask me about my time.”

  00:05:19 And then I stopped and thought, “Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why am I doing this marathon? Why did I even decide to do this in the first place? Well, it was to build a relationship with my son, to spend time with my son. If I take off, what is going to be going through his mind as he sees me run off while he’s struggling? In that split second, I said, “Nathan, I’m not going anywhere, we’re in this together.” And we ran the rest of the marathon together. And to his credit, he finished, and one of my favorite pictures of me and Nathan going through the finish line together. We ran together. It was a beautiful experience. And I think there are times in the church where we can lose sight, or in our families, we can lose sight of what we’re really about, why we’re doing what we’re doing. We need each other, we need to run together, to help each other in our struggles. That’s part of what we do in this church is we make these covenants and we run together, and we take turns pulling each other along when someone’s hurting. And you know, Hank those marathons, they’re tough. I mean, you hurt.

Hank Smith: 00:06:31 It’s a good way to lose your toenails, I’ll tell you that.

Dr. David Boren: 00:06:34 It is, yeah, they’re overrated. But life is not a sprint, and membership in the church is not a sprint. Living in a family is not a sprint. This war, this war is exhausting, that the Nephites are in, it goes on, and on and on. They have to stick together. Our ward families, and our quorum, and class families and our actual families, we need each other. We’ve got to run together in this covenant relationship. That was my other thought on Title of Liberty, and he brought them together and said, “We’re in this together. You are not independent contractors doing parallel play. We are running together.”

Hank Smith: 00:07:11 Strength in our group, our ward family, our stake, our church. We’ve talked this year about, it’s not about the evidences for the Book of Mormon, it’s about the text. The evidence can convince you, but the text converts you. However, I just find this one so much fun that I wanted to share with you. There’s a story in Alma 46, you can miss it if you’re reading too fast, where Moroni starts talking about Joseph and the coat, way back from Genesis. And he says something about a part of the coat, that after it was torn up, didn’t decay. It sounds like it was made of animal skin, and that a portion of it didn’t decay. The portion of the coat not decaying is not found anywhere in the Bible, it’s not in Genesis.

  00:08:00 Hugh Nibley, who we’ve talked about on the podcast many times, he found that in the 10th century, a Muslim scholar, and there’s no way I can pronounce this name, Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim al-Halabi, I don’t know how I did. He back in the 10th century, John, David, so this is a thousand years ago, he gathered legends about the ancient biblical figures. He preserved one account, not found anywhere else, about the coat of Joseph, how it was torn and how a piece of it remained undecayed. That lore is preserved nowhere else, that is except in Alma 46, which also records the ancient tradition about a remnant of Joseph’s coat, which was undecayed. Nibley said, “This is a test no forgery could pass.” That somehow Joseph Smith had access to a 10th century Muslim scholarship. I thought it was a fun little Hugh Nibley story, who we love, right John?

John Bytheway: 00:09:10 Yeah.

Dr. David Boren: 00:09:12 That caught me by surprise and I didn’t know that history, but I was really impressed that Moroni knew his scriptures so well. He was not just a military guy, and he didn’t separate his discipleship from his job as the military leader. Russell M. Nelson said this about that, he says, “In my own experience, I have preferred not to compartmentalize my interests, but to synergize them. To say that your highest priority will be your occupation, or to your family or to the Lord, is really much more difficult than it is to merge strengths and pursue those interests concurrently.” I think Moroni was a better military leader because he knew the scriptures and he knew the Lord, and he didn’t compartmentalize those. They were mutually reinforcing, they helped each other because he did know the scriptures, and he wasn’t afraid to preach to his people.

Hank Smith: 00:10:05 And it’s no wonder then that Mormon likes him so much, because Mormon’s trying to live almost that exact life, of a faithful Christian military leader.

Dr. David Boren: 00:10:17 Like verse 36, there’s a nice way to apply this. “It came to pass,” This is after Amalickiah escaped, “Moroni caused the Title of Liberty to be hoisted upon every tower, which was in all the land, which was possessed by the Nephites.” A good way to apply this is put reminders of your covenants where you can see them. President Kimball, back when I was a teenager, was, “Have a picture of the temple in your home. Have a picture of the Savior in your room.” Remember what King Benjamin said? “Keep these before your eyes.” I remember Alma 46 is, that is the place reminders of your covenants everywhere, chapter.

Hank Smith: 00:10:58 That’s fantastic. I love that.

John Bytheway: 00:11:00 Yeah.

Dr. David Boren: 00:11:02 Let’s go on to chapter 47. We see that, because he understands leadership and people, in verse one of chapter 47, what does Amalickiah do? He stirs up the Lamanites to anger. To anger. The King says, yeah, we are going to go attack the Nephites. There’s a group that fears that and we get a group of Lamanites that leaves, and they go up to the Hill Antipas, their leader is Lehonti.

Hank Smith: 00:11:33 John, do I need to get my copy of Righteous Warriors out? Because I’m pretty sure you covered this, didn’t you?

John Bytheway: 00:11:38 Oh yeah. It’s a story we love and it’s so sad because when we find a character, a name in the scriptures, they’re usually an example or a warning. We know Amalickiah is a warning, we know Moroni is an example. Lehonti starts out as example because this Amalickiah goes in and says, “Hey, King of the Lamanites, let’s go attack the Nephites. They won’t elect me to be king. Let’s go force them to make me king.” And this particular Lamanite king says, “Yeah, good idea.” So they’re marching with this army, as you know, and then the more part of the army says, “We got no reason to go fight the Nephites.” And they go up to the Mount Antipas with Lehonti as their leader, and Amalickiah sends, three different times, “Go tell Lehonti to come down from his mountain, tell him to come down here and talk to me.” Lehonti won’t come. In fact, this sounds like an example, look at verse six, “Being fixed in their mind with a determined resolution, they would not be subjected to go against the Nephites.” And they keep inviting him to come down and he won’t come down.

  00:12:44 So finally, I love verse 12, “It came to pass that when Amalickiah found he could not get Lehonti to come down off from the Mount, he went up into the Mount, nearly to Lehonti’s camp. And he sent again the fourth time his message onto Lehonti, desiring that he would come down and that he would bring his guards with him.” You’ve got, “Come down.” “No.” “Come down.” “No.” “Come down.” “No.” “Okay, I’ll come up. I’ll come up nearly to your camp and I will say, Lehonti, ‘Come down just a little. And bring your guards with you, you’ll be fine.'” We’re all reading it going, “Don’t do it, Lehonti. I’ve read this book, I know what happens.” In fact, every time I read this, the same thing happens. You can imagine this scene, there’s a really nice painting on Book of Mormon Central, of Amalickiah, the cunning, flattering murderer, on his knees going, hey Lehonti, here’s my idea. Bring your army down in the nighttime, surround my smaller army. And Amalickiah knows, I can’t conquer the Nephites unless I have Lehonti and his army. So bring your guys down, surround my smaller army. When they wake up, my army will see they’re surrounded by you. And Lehonti, I will surrender my army to you, if you’ll make me, end of verse 13, a second leader. I just want to be your second-in-command. You are such a good leader, Lehonti, I want to learn from you.

  00:14:15 We’re reading it going, “Don’t do it, Lehonti.” And boy it all happens the way he plans. And he says, okay, we’ll be coming down the mountain when we come. You’ll see us, we’ll be riding six white horses when we come. Sorry, Hank. And thank you for letting me tell this, I just love this story. Lehonti’s army comes down in the nighttime, surrounds Amalickiah’s smaller army, they wake up, they all see they’re surrounded, they say, Amalickiah, we don’t want to fight those guys. They’re Lamanites, in fact, that’s my brother. Hi Ted. Let’s surrender and be one big happy army. And now we’ve got Lehonti in command, Amalickiah as second-in-command. Now if you are second-in-command and you really want to be first in command, and you have no conscience or scruples, what do you do?

Dr. David Boren: 00:15:06 You got to get rid of him, but you can’t be the one to blame.

John Bytheway: 00:15:08 Yeah, look at verse 18, “It came to pass that Amalickiah had caused that one of his servants should administer poison, by degrees, to Lehonti, that he died.” Thank you Mormon for being such an awesome abridger of this story. Abridger, is that a word? It could have said, “The servant of Amalickiah killed Lehonti.” And it would’ve been factually accurate. But he did it in such a subtle way. If I come at you with a spear, or a javelin, or a knife or a sword, you know something of my intentions. But what if I come at you with a refreshing beverage, and this Amalickiah, like you said, man, he’s cunning, flattering. “Hey, try this.” Lehonti’s last heartbeat, he thought he was in command, “They poisoned him by degrees.” That’s I think why we have this love hate relationship with this story, because Lehonti was, “We are fixed in our mind with a determined resolution.” And then he got poisoned by degrees, and he didn’t even realize it was happening. So the applications of course are, don’t get poisoned by degrees, incrementalism.

Dr. David Boren: 00:16:21 That flaxen cord will get you.

John Bytheway: 00:16:24 Yeah. For me, this is the, don’t come down from your mountain, story. I think about the story in Nehemiah, and they’re like, “Hey, come down to the plane of Ono.” Which probably should tell you something. He says, “They meant to do me mischief and they called four times after this sort, and I said,” President Uchtdorf gave a talk about this, “‘I’m doing a great thing, why should the work cease while I come down to you?'” Thanks for letting me talk about that, that’s just such a fascinating story. But now, oh great, you’ve got Amalickiah back in command, with an army that’s united again. And he goes back to the king of the Lamanites kills the king of the Lamanites, becomes the king of the Lamanites, marries the queen of the Lamanites. This is crazy.

Dr. David Boren: 00:17:15 I loved what you pointed out there, that he thought he was in control the entire time, but when did he lose control? The moment he lost control is when he came down just a little, from that time onward, Amalickiah is in control of the entire thing, letting Lehonti believe he’s in control, the entire time. You got to wonder right before Lehonti dies, if Amalickiah comes in and says, just whispers to him, “You shouldn’t have come down off that mountain.”

John Bytheway: 00:17:47 Man.

Dr. David Boren: 00:17:48 It was me, from that point on.

John Bytheway: 00:17:50 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:17:51 Both of you brought up the idea of this illusion of control that Amalickiah created in Lehonti, and partially by coming up, and then allowing him to bring his guards down with him. It caused me to think, “How does Satan do that to me, where I bring my guards down? What is that? Oh, well I did my scripture study in prayers this morning. I went to the temple last week-“

John Bytheway: 00:18:15 “So I’m okay.

Hank Smith: 00:18:16 “So I’m okay. I can go to this website or I can engage in this activity because I’m armored up. I’ve put on the whole armor of God. I can go to the hottest part of the battle if I need to.” Not a good idea. When we have our guards with us, we’ve done the things that we need to do, we feel like we’re invulnerable, and we can come down even a little bit. And then they went down all the way, and they had all their guards, they had everybody. The whole army’s like, “Gee, I’ve got my whole army with me.” This illusion of control.

  00:18:46 I love the talk that Sister Dew gave, several years ago at BYU when I was an undergraduate. She says, “You’re smart, you’re even exceptional, but you’re not that smart. You are not resilient enough to tangle with the adversary. You can never match his cunning or his talent for deception and diversion. He will outsmart, outmaneuver and outlast you every time you willingly consent to a duel.” Well, Lehonti consented, he didn’t even realize he was consenting to a duel. It’s dangerous. This is Elder Larry W. Gibbons, “Stay on the straight and narrow path.” No, stay in the middle of the straight and narrow path. Don’t drift, don’t wander, don’t dabble. Be careful. Remember, do not flirt with evil, stay out of the devil’s territory. Do not give Satan any home field advantage. Living the commandments will bring you the happiness that too many look for in other places.”

John Bytheway: 00:19:48 I’ve heard my good friend Hank Smith say, “Don’t confuse your friends with your enemies. Here is Amalickiah saying, “I just want to be second-in-command. Can I be the second leader?” That’s exactly what he did, he got his enemies confused with his friends. And I think of my own children, boy Amalickiah or Satan coming out to them and saying, “Hey, come down from your mountain. I’m not your enemy. You know who your enemy is, it’s that church. Man, you guys can’t do anything in your church. I want to give you freedom.” I love that Sheri Dew quote. Do you know what it reminds me of? All of us struggle with that, “Daddy, don’t you trust me?” question. Right? President Hinckley told a story, and I found out later it was President J. Reuben Clark, but his daughter was leaving. Well, he gave her a, remember who you are, type of a thing. And she said, “Daddy, don’t you trust me?” And President Clark said, “I don’t entirely trust myself. One never gets too old or too high in the church that the adversary gives up on him.”

Dr. David Boren: 00:20:53 That’s amazing. We talk about Amalickiah and I think it would be wise for us to maybe with our families or students to say, “What does Amalickiah look like, today? Where is he in the world today?” His name’s not going to be Amalickiah. Elder Holland gave a talk called, Place No More for the Enemy of My Soul. That’s really what Lehonti should have thought, “Wait, that guy’s the enemy of my soul, I’m not going to do anything he says.” Well, Elder Holland is talking about pornography, and he says, “Along with filters on computers and a lock on affections, remember that the only real control in life, is self-control. Exercise more control over even the marginal moments that confront you. If a TV show is indecent, turn it off. If a movie is crude, walk out. If an improper relationship is developing, sever it. Many of these influences, at least initially, may not be technically evil, but they can blunt our judgment, dull our spirituality, and lead to something that could be evil.” Oh man, if Elder Holland could have talked to Lehonti, “Well it’s not evil for me to go down there and meet him.” “But it could lead to destruction.” And then Elder Holland says this, “An old proverb says that a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step,” And then these four words, “So watch your step.”

Dr. David Boren: 00:22:19 Like John said, Amalickiah gets control of the entire Lamanite army, like, is this for real? This is like Hollywood stuff. Chapter 48, “More than half of the Lamanite army did not want to fight the Nephites.” We go to verse one and two. It says that, “He obtained the kingdom and began to inspire the hearts of the Lamanites and he appointed men to speak unto the Lamanites from their towers against the Nephites.” He’s employing the same tactic that John pointed out that Moroni used, he’s putting those symbols and those spokesmen all over the place that are going to just message, message, message, his message. And he did inspire, verse two, he did inspire their hearts against the Nephites. And in verse three, “He hardened their hearts and blinded their minds.” He’s totally tapping into their emotions. He knows how to do that effectively, through the power of PR and through story.

  00:23:17 And then in verse five, “He appoints chief captains of the Zoramites. Yet again, these Zoramites who were with the Nephites, “They being the most acquainted with the strength of the Nephites, and their places of resort and the weakest parts of their cities.” Yeah, that’s pretty scary. The enemy that knows me so well, is going to try to capitalize on my weaknesses and my weak times. President Kimball said this, “Remember the adversary knows our weaknesses. And he will exploit them, he will find our weak spots and use them to his advantage if we are not vigilant and constantly on guard.” Fortunately, the Lord, as it says in D&C 62:1, Knoweth the weaknesses of man and how to succor them who are tempted. If we’ll humble ourselves before God and have faith, he will make weak things become strong unto us. As it says in Ether 12:27. We know he is going to hit these weak places, but fortunately, Satan’s not the only one that knows our weaknesses, the Lord knows our weaknesses and will succor us and make those weak things become strong, if we’re vigilant and turn to him.

Dr. David Boren: 00:24:28 You can tell he’s a Christ figure here. He says, “Come unto me, I will show you your weakness and I can make weak things become strong.” And that’s really… But doesn’t it even say, “By the means of Moroni, this once weak city,” I think there’s two of them, “both become strong.”

John Bytheway: 00:24:46 That’s way up in Alma 49 verse 14, but you see it in Alma 48 verse nine too, that idea.

Dr. David Boren: 00:24:53 Yep. “They put the greatest number of men to fortify and strengthen their weakest fortifications.” In verse nine.

  00:25:01 We move on to the famous verses about Moroni. When I was a fourteen-year-old young teacher living in Sandpoint, Idaho, Brother Cam Buck, one of our teacher’s quorum advisors, challenged the teacher’s quorum to memorize verse 11 and verse 17. And he bribed us a little bit with his gooey marshmallow brownies, he said, “Okay, I’m bringing gooey marshmallow brownies, this is my special recipe.” I think he brought one that day. Well young men will do just about anything for brownies. He gave us two weeks, and so I spent two weeks memorizing verses 11 and 17. And true to his word, he showed up with a plate full, heaping with these marshmallow chocolate brownies. Well, for those two weeks, it was amazing to read about Moroni.

  00:25:52 I’ll read these verses, “And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man. He was a man of a perfect understanding. Yea, a man that did not delight in bloodshed, a man whose soul did joy in the liberty and the freedom of his country, and his brethren from bondage and slavery. Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever. Yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men.” And those words sank deep into my soul, I’m like, “Man, I want to be that guy. I want to be like Moroni.” Elder Ulisses Soares said, “All of us need to transform ourselves into modern Captain Moronis, in order to win the war against evil.” I think it would do all of us well to study all these chapters about Moroni. Because we’re facing an adversary that is as scary as Amalickiah is, we’re facing even worse, we’ve got to be like Moroni.

John Bytheway: 00:26:52 I like what Hank said a minute ago about Amalickiah is a Satan figure, and Moroni is a Christ figure. Look at verse seven, and here’s Mormon being an awesome abridger again, Alma 48:7, “Now it came to pass while Amalickiah had thus been obtaining power by fraud and deceit, Moroni on the other hand had been preparing,” And what do you think is going to come next? Swords, forts, places of resort? No, spiritual preparation is always first. “Preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.” That’s job one. Then the next verse, “Strengthening the armies of the Nephites with forts, places of resort, banks of earth.” I love that same thing, spiritual preparation first, and then we can start building our fortifications and our defensive weapons. Sometimes we wonder, “How do you serve God with all your mind?” And so I always see verses that use mind instead of heart, “Preparing the minds of the people to be faithful unto the Lord their God.” In verse seven, there.

Dr. David Boren: 00:27:56 Sometimes we put our physical preparedness over our spiritual preparedness, and it’s certainly important to have wheat, and water, and food supply, and food storage and enough money on hand, but that spiritual preparedness is going to serve us even better. That should come first.

John Bytheway: 00:28:17 The War Chapters always put it first, which is fascinating.

Dr. David Boren: 00:28:20 Yeah, we know Moroni is this amazing guy. And then it says in verse 18 that he was like an Ammon, the son of Mosiah, and the sons of Mosiah and Alma and his sons, and then in 19, “Now behold, Helaman and his brethren were no less serviceable unto the people than was Moroni.” We’ll remember the recent talk by Elder Bednar, from a couple conferences ago, In the Path of Their Duty, of October 2023 and he talks about the last wagon. And Howard W. Hunter gave a talk in 1990, and he says this, “If you feel that much of what you do this year or in the years to come does not make you very famous, take heart, most of the best people who ever lived weren’t very famous either. Serve and grow faithfully and quietly.”

  00:29:09 A couple of weeks ago we had ward conference and our bishop, who’s amazing, stood up and shared a couple of little stories that brought this no less serviceable thought to mind. And this bishop’s been in for a while. He said there was a couple in the ward right after he was called that came to him and said, “Bishop, if there is ever an assignment or a calling that no one else will take, you come and ask us and we’ll take care of it.” And he said, “Nobody knows who this couple is, but I have relied on them time and time again. They’ve always stepped up and done it without fanfare and recognition.”

  00:29:49 And then he shared another story. He said, there was a man in the ward at Christmas time, a brother that asked him if there was anyone in the ward that could use some financial help at Christmas. The bishop said, “Yeah, there is.” And the man said, “Well, how much do you need?” And the bishop said, “Oh, whatever you can give him.” And the man said, “No, I want an amount.” So the bishop gave an amount. The bishop said a few days later there was an envelope taped to his front door with Mark 5:41 written on the front, with some money inside. And well, Mark 5:41 is, “And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.” And there was double the amount of money in the envelope that the bishop had asked for. Nobody knows about who this brother is.

  00:30:32 I mean the stories go on and on. We’ve all heard a lot of these stories. What President Benson calls members that live quiet lives of goodness, service and commitment. There are so many wonderful members of the church that are no less serviceable, because of something that they’ve done that maybe they don’t have a prominent calling or anything that’s very visible.

  00:30:56 So I’ll share one more quote. Elder Maxwell, I love Elder Maxwell. One of my favorite talks that he gave was called, Content with the Things Allotted unto Us, that he gave in 2000. Here’s what he says, “Performance is what matters, not the size of the stage. The Sea of Galilee only 13 miles by seven, was nevertheless large enough to provide the disciples with a vital experience involving faith and walking on the water. There were certainly much more prominent hills than Golgotha and much more resplendent gardens than Gethsemane, no matter, these were sufficient to host the central act of all human history.” It’s beautiful to consider that we can really serve wherever we’re called.

  00:31:42 I’ll share one more. This one is a poem by Meade MacGuire, it’s called Father, Where Shall I Work Today? “And my love flowed warm and free. Then he pointed out a tiny spot and said, ‘Tend that for me.’ I answered quickly, ‘Oh no, not that. Why no one would ever see no matter how well my work was done, not that little place for me.’ And the word he spoke, it was not stern, he answered me tenderly. ‘Ah, little one, search that heart of thine, art thou working for them or for me. Nazareth was a little place and so was Galilee.'” It’s beautiful and there’s actually a ton of research on humility in the scholarly literature that colleagues and followers in an organization, when they rate their leader as humble, they’re 18 times more likely to follow that leader, than someone that doesn’t demonstrate humility. Organizational performance skyrockets when we are humble.

  00:32:44 No less serviceable, these were humble men. One other thought on this, this idea of humility. I know John Hilton‘s done a lot of stuff with text analysis and things, and I did a little text analysis of some of the leaders in these chapters, it’s similar to some things we’ve done with principles. I took all of the words spoken by Moroni, Pahoran, Helaman and Ammoron. Amalickiah only has 13 words that he spoke, so it’s hard to do a textual analysis of his 13 words, but I did a pronoun analysis of the words that they spoke. If you look at the I words like, I, me, my, and the we words like, we, our, us, I printed off this little chart, I don’t know if you can see it. Helaman, his we-focused words are a lot higher than his I-focused words. But Ammoron is just the opposite.

John Bytheway: 00:33:39 Wow.

Dr. David Boren: 00:33:39 And if you go this way with Pahoran and Moroni, it’s the same.

John Bytheway: 00:33:42 Yeah.

Dr. David Boren: 00:33:43 We did a very similar analysis of effective and less effective school principals. We found the exact same thing, in every single case, that their ratio of the way they talk about their work, the ratio of I to we words, was inverse for the less effective and more effective principals.

  00:34:06 I find that fascinating, that it’s us, and you see that in the book of Moses with the way Satan talks and the way Christ talks about their work, in Moses 4. It can be hard to be humble in leadership, especially when somebody is less educated or seems to have less to offer, but we’ll learn a lot more if we’re open to that. And I remember as an elementary principal, we had a dad that would call the school all the time, to yell and swear, and it was exhausting. And I remember one day he called and I was listening to him scream at us and I just thought, “Man, what an idiot. I’m so tired of this guy.” I’m like, “I’ve got a Ph.D. And he didn’t even graduate from high school probably.” It was right after General Conference, and Elder Christofferson had said something that rang me. He said this, “Even when we encounter mean-spirited criticism from persons who have little regard or love for us, it can be helpful to exercise enough meekness to weigh it and sift out anything that might benefit us.” Elder Christofferson had just taught that. And I’m listening to this guy scream and swear at us, and I thought, “Huh, I wonder… I’m going to listen.”

  00:35:24 And you know what? This guy had some really good ideas and some really good points. I thanked him for what he was saying. I didn’t appreciate the way he was yelling at me, but I thanked him for what he said and we made some changes, and he changed the way he treated us. He was never a front office favorite after that, but he mellowed because we humbly listened. And when my kids are upset with me and maybe their manner of speech is not really conducive to a good conversation, they might still have some important matters to talk about, even if the manner is not great. Having the humility to listen is an important leadership lesson, great leaders are humble. And the next verse in verse 20, it shows that the people humbled themselves as well. They had humble leaders and the people were humble, and you can see that trickle down again.

Hank Smith: 00:36:22 Humility it looks like is the key to becoming favored of the Lord, because you’re open now. You’re open to being taught and being directed.

John Bytheway: 00:36:31 As you continue there. Here’s this question we’ve been wrestling with, how does a man of Christ go to war? We have, probably listening, men and women in the armed services and we love them and respect them for their service, and thank them for their service. Look at these words here, I’m in verse 21, “Notwithstanding their peace amongst themselves, they were compelled, reluctantly to contend with their brethren the Lamanites. Yea and fine, their wars never did cease for the space of many years with the Lamanites, notwithstanding their much reluctance.” Now, they were sorry to take up arms against the Lamanites. They did not delight in the shedding of blood. “Yea and this was not all, they were sorry to be the means of sending so many of their brethren out of this world into an eternal world, unprepared to meet their God.” And then in verse 24, “However,” it’s this nevertheless, here’s the Title of Liberty, “They could not suffer to lay down their lives that their wives and their children should be massacred by the cruelty of those who are once their brethren.” Look at the frame of mind, it’s Captain Moroni, we’re reluctant, we’re sorry, and yet we have to defend our families and our liberty.

Dr. David Boren: 00:37:42 Elder Zwick said something that I have used several times. He says, “A soft answer consists of a reasoned response, disciplined words from a humble heart. It does not mean we never speak directly or that we compromise doctrinal truth. Words may be firm in information but soft in spirit.” Elder Uchtdorf says, “Of course, we must always stand for what is right, and there are times when we must raise our voices for that cause. However, when we do so with anger or hate in our hearts, when we lash out at others to hurt, shame or silence them, chances are we are not doing so in righteousness.” There are absolutely times where we have to contend and we may do so reluctantly, but we don’t have to be jerks about it. We can do so with a soft answer.

John Bytheway: 00:38:31 That is a great scriptural phrase, we don’t have to be jerks.

Dr. David Boren: 00:38:34 Be jerks about. I love it.

John Bytheway: 00:38:36 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:38:37 Now here we go again. Major war.

Dr. David Boren: 00:38:40 Yeah, here we are. Big war, the Lamanites are geared up and they are going to attack some of the cities they feel are the weakest. For whatever reason in verse 10, Amalickiah did not come down with them. He was missing in action. But when the Lamanites arrived, we see in verse eight, that, “The Nephites were prepared for them in a manner which never had been known.” And if you jump down to 11, “They had altered the management of affairs.” This is another leadership lesson that great leaders make needed changes. They will alter the management of affairs when needed. We are facing pretty stiff odds these days, pretty vicious attacks. Elder Quentin Cook said this, “Parents, the days are long passed when regular active participation in church meetings and programs, though essential, can fulfill your sacred responsibility to teach your children, to live moral righteous lives and walk uprightly before the Lord.”

  00:39:41 Maybe three, four years ago it was okay to just go to church and that would be enough. But we have seen in the last five years, and we think about the last five years in the church, we are being asked to prepare in ways which never have been known, and to alter the management of affairs. The changes that have happened I think are inspired to help us be prepared for these oncoming attacks. These cities of Ammonihah and Noah were prepared in ways that had never been seen. The Lamanites get there and they’re like, “Whoa, look at the mounds of earth and these forts, and this is crazy.” Because Amalickiah wasn’t there, the heads of the armies said, “No, let’s go on to Noah. That one will be better. They’ll be weak.” And made an oath to destroy it. Probably shouldn’t have made any promises before seeing the City of Noah because Moroni had anticipated this very thing, and I’m sure he had some inspiration there because, “It had hitherto been a weak place,” As it says in verse 14, “And it became a strong place.”

John Bytheway: 00:40:50 A long time ago, anciently, I was involved in something called Boy Scouts. We had a motto which we worked for weeks to memorize. It was, let me see, “Be prepared.” Yeah, that’s it.

Dr. David Boren: 00:41:02 Be prepared.

John Bytheway: 00:41:03 When you watch for the word prepared and preparation in these chapters, it’s inspiring. And what does our Doctrine and Covenants say? “If ye are prepared…”

Dr. David Boren: 00:41:13 “Ye shall not fear.”

John Bytheway: 00:41:14 “… Ye shall not fear.” And I love that you brought that out, David. There was some manner they had never seen before, or following God and the way he tells us to do things, it’s not the world’s manner, it’s a different way of preparing for our spiritual battles. And then in verse 14, “A weak place had now, by means of Moroni, become strong.” There’s your Ether 12:27 idea, “Come unto me, I will make weak things strong.” A missionary asked Harold B. Lee once, “What’s the most important commandment for me as a missionary?” And apparently President Lee thought about it for a bit, and then he said, “The most important commandment for you is the one you’re having the most trouble with.” Such a great answer. And then chapter 50 verse one, “Moroni did not stop making preparations for war.”

  00:42:02 “First, okay, let’s dig up heaps of earth, round about the cities.” Now, this is without Caterpillars or diesel equipment, you can imagine the work. “Are we done now?” “No. Now let’s make a work of timbers on the top of these ridges of earth, to the height of a man.” “Okay, are we done now? Because I’ve got a blister.” And in verse 3, “Okay, no, we’re not done. Let’s make a frame of pickets on top of the work of timbers, on top of the heaps of earth.” “Are we done now?” “No. Now let’s put towers on top of the frame of pickets, on top of the work of timbers, on top of the heaps of earth.” “Now, are we done?” “No. Let’s put somebody in the towers. They can cast stones according to their pleasure and their strength on the top of the city.” Maybe this is part of that manner of, “I’ve never seen anything like this before.” I’ve seen drawings and probably you guys have too, in fact, there’s a letter that Cortes writes, which it sounds exactly like what is described here in Alma 50, about an ancient city and how it was fortified. But this is just a great lesson on preparation, and in a manner that nobody had ever seen before. And don’t you think that spiritually speaking, the Lord gives us a manner of preparing, the world might not get or it might seem strange to them.

Hank Smith: 00:43:23 And I like that. It’s the idea John and David, I think of, prepare more than you think you need to. Get to where, “Okay, that’s a lot.” And then double it.

John Bytheway: 00:43:34 And what’s so cool about the towers is if you’re up in a tower, what can you do that nobody else can do?

Hank Smith: 00:43:42 Yeah, you can see far away.

John Bytheway: 00:43:44 What do we call a prophet? What’s one of their nicknames?

Hank Smith: 00:43:47 A seer.

John Bytheway: 00:43:50 A watchman on a tower, and a seer, one who sees, can you imagine if a prophet says, “Hey, danger, approacheth two o’clock, prepare thyself.”? And you can imagine, we look up and say, “I don’t see any danger.”? “Of course you don’t, you’re on the frame of picket maintenance. I’m up here in the tower, I can see what’s going on.” It’s an awesome idea about, “Now put people on the towers and now you better listen to the people in those towers because they’re going to be able to see things that you can’t see.”

Dr. David Boren: 00:44:21 Fantastic. Let’s look at the story of the people of Morianton and Lehi real quick. In chapter 50, well we’ve got these neighboring cities, and here we go again. In verse 26 of Alma 50, “There began to be a warm contention.” Red flags, no warm contentions, again, they’re just having this issue, and then it escalates, and it becomes a heated contention. And very similar to what happened with Amalickiah, Morianton with a group decides to leave. Fortunately in this case, Moroni and his armies were able to stop them and head them off. They got tipped off by Morianton’s servant that had been beaten. But they head them off, their people are so stubborn, it says in verse 35, I mean, they’re clearly going to lose… You’ve got Teancum, we haven’t really been introduced to Teancum before, but you do not want to mess with Teancum and his armies.

  00:45:18 And Morianton inspires, again that word inspire, he knows how to inspire his men. They decide to fight and they lose. But what I love is verse 36, “And thus were the people of Morianton brought back, and upon their covenanting to keep the peace, they were restored to the land of Morianton, and a union took place between them and the people of Lehi; and they were also restored to their lands.” This is a pretty serious fight here that they’re in, and I think it’s a beautiful story of healing and forgiveness. These were neighbors. I think we’ve all been hurt by people that are close to us.

  00:45:59 Not too long ago, I had an experience with someone I was close to and it really hurt. And I came across this verse in the book of Psalms, this is King David, he’s talking about one of his counselors, Ahithophel, I guess is his name. He was one of David’s closest counselors. He was betraying him behind his back to his son Absalom. And this is what David says in lament, he says, “For it was not an enemy that reproached me, then I could have borne it. Neither was it he that hated me, that did magnify himself against me, then I would’ve hid myself from him. But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide and my acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together and walked unto the house of God in company.” It really hurts when someone close to us, whether it’s a neighbor, or a family member or a friend, betrays the trust that we have in them, and I think it’s beautiful that these people were able to reconcile. There’s a story that Elder David Sorensen told, in the 2003 General Conference, in his talk, Forgiveness Will Change Bitterness to Love.

Hank Smith: 00:47:13 Some people might know that name because it’s right at the end of our podcast. If you listen all the way through the end, we talk about our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen.

Dr. David Boren: 00:47:24 Oh, perfect. Oh, that’s just right then. I think he grew up in Arizona, I’m not sure, but he grew up on a farm, a farming community, and he talks about these two neighbors that were boyhood friends. Apparently it was a dry year, which is pretty common in Arizona. They shared water rights and a common irrigation ditch, they got into a warm contention over water rights, it turned into a hot blazing fight. Elder Sorensen calls them Chet and Walt, I don’t think that’s their real name, but he said Chet and Walt got into an argument. Walt struck Chet’s eye with a shovel, and he was blinded. Chet, he was really mad about that, so a few months later, he stopped up all the water knowing that Walt would come see what’s going on with the water, and when Walt came, Chet shot him dead. Chet was sent to prison. And this is what Elder Sorensen says, “My father often lamented how tragic it was that Chet and Walt, these two neighbors and boyhood friends had fallen captive to their anger and let it destroy their lives. How tragic that the passion of the moment was allowed to escalate out of control, eventually taking the lives of both men, simply because two men could not forgive each other over a few shares of irrigation water.”

  00:48:50 I appreciate that in this story, there were some shovels swinging and some swords and some other things, and they were able to come back together as friends and neighbors, and they were restored to their lands. President Nelson taught this during the 2018 Christmas Devotional, he says, “Through his infinite atonement, you can forgive those who have hurt you and who have never accepted responsibility for their cruelty to you. It is usually easy to forgive one who sincerely and humbly seeks your forgiveness, but the Savior will grant you the ability to forgive anyone who has mistreated you in any way. Then their hurtful acts can no longer canker your soul.” Forgiveness can really heal. God can help us do that, and I believe he helped these people of Morianton and Lehi to do that.

Hank Smith: 00:49:38 Wow. They came back together again.

Dr. David Boren: 00:49:41 Yep. All right, let’s move on to chapter 51. So sorry to say in verse two, “There began to be a contention among the people.” Oh gosh, these warm contentions keep popping up, and it’s over a few particular points of the law. It’s the king-men again, verse four, it says, “A warm dispute concerning the matter came up, but not unto bloodshed.” In verse seven, said, “This matter of their contention was settled by the voice of the people.” But it wasn’t. The king-men would not go along with the voice of the people. And in verse nine it says, “Behold, this was a critical time for such contentions to be among the people of Nephi.” As we said earlier, Satan has impeccable timing, just like Amalickiah did. Amalickiah comes down during this time, Moroni is pretty upset by all of this and he goes to the people and says, “Hey, can I stop this? Can I take care of this?” And he does.

  00:50:45 It’s really interesting though, he basically confronts the king-men, in verse 19, “There were 4,000 of those dissenters that were hewn down by the sword, that would not agree to work with the Nephites.” That’s a lot of people. And the rest were compelled to go along with the Nephites. And certainly there are times where we have to play hardball and use compulsion. But verse 21 says, “And thus Moroni put an end to those king-men, and there were not any known by the appellation of king-men.” But if you go forward five years, to chapter 61 of Alma, they’re back. Here’s what Abraham Lincoln says about compulsion, and he knew a little bit about armies and fighting and compulsion, and he says, “Force is all conquering, but its victories are short-lived.” I’ve found that compulsion in leadership, usually does not work out for the long run. It does not stick, it does not have a very sticky factor. I won’t share the quote because it’s long, but Larry Y. Wilson, in May of 2012, said some great things for parents and leaders, on compulsion. Take a look at it sometime. Then verse 31, we got Teancum and his men, and they stop Amalickiah.

John Bytheway: 00:52:10 Teancum’s like a Navy SEAL, Ranger, Green Beret, they don’t stop at night. In verse 33, “I’m not going to bed.” He gets his servants, they went into the camp of Amalickiah, “Sleep had overpowered them because of their much fatigue caused by the labors and heat of the day.” And verse 34, “Stole into the tent of the king and put a javelin to his heart, and he did cause the death of the king immediately.” This is interesting because later Teancum’s going to get Ammoron too, but he cast a javelin at him. With Amalickiah, he just woke up dead, I mean he was gone. It says, “He returned privily,” Again to his own camp, and it says, “Woke everybody up.” “Hey you guys, I was just over there. I just took out Amalickiah. I probably ought to…” “You what?” “Yeah, we just went over to Amalickiah, we put a javelin to his heart, applied about five inches. So everybody wake up because they might be coming back and-“

Dr. David Boren: 00:53:09 They might be upset in a minute.

John Bytheway: 00:53:11 What day did they take him out, according to Alma, 52 verse one?

Dr. David Boren: 00:53:15 It was the end of the year, right?

John Bytheway: 00:53:18 It’s New Year’s Day.

Dr. David Boren: 00:53:20 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:53:21 First morning, first month, they found Amalickiah was dead in his own tent. To find your king… That is such a bad omen for superstitious folks, the first day of the first month, the king’s dead in his tent. I think that’s why Mormon’s giving us the date.

Dr. David Boren: 00:53:38 John, you mentioned Teancum doing the same thing to Amalickiah’s brother, Ammoron, and the differences. There’s a difference too in Alma 62 where, Mormon points out that Teancum, when he goes into the tent of Ammoron, he goes in his anger, and in that time he ends up getting killed.

John Bytheway: 00:53:56 Good point.

Hank Smith: 00:53:58 I don’t know if Mormon meant to do that, but you could compare those two assassinations and say, “One, he goes in to take care of business. The other one, he goes in with a heightened emotion and he ends up being killed in that one.” Now, not to place blame on Teancum, because you know that Lehi and Moroni love Teancum.

John Bytheway: 00:54:20 Yeah, what a gutsy thing to do. Everybody’s asleep, “Come on, let’s go.” Yeah, wow. He may have known Amalickiah, and Amalickiah was originally a Nephite. He has caused all of these problems for so many years and chapters

Hank Smith: 00:54:36 As we’re moving from Amalickiah to Ammoron, I wanted to show you both something, and this was done by our friend Joe Spencer, who we’ve had on the podcast before. Basically what Joe shows is that you can split the Book of Alma, right down the middle, Alma one through 29 being the first half, Alma 30 through 63 being the second half. What Joe shows here is that the two halves line up almost perfectly, where you have Nehor in Alma one, you have Korihor in Alma 30. Where you have the Amlicites in Alma two and three, you have the Zoramites in Alma 31 through 35. And then the three cities that Alma the Younger goes to, Zarahemla, Gideon and Ammonihah, match almost perfectly with the three sons that Alma speaks to, Helaman, Shiblon and Corianton. And then a little bit further down, you’ve got Ammon and Aaron going on missions to the Lamanites, Nephites going to Lamanites, and then on the other half you have Amalickiah and Ammoron, both Nephites going to the Lamanites.

  00:55:46 What I think this points out is how wonderful Mormon is, in putting this together. He’s saying, “I’ll take Alma, I can write the first half and then I can take history and put it into an organization that fits almost perfectly in the second half.” Again, we can link that in our show notes, but for anyone who’s interested in looking at the Book of Mormon that way, it can be a really fun, fun way to look at it.

John Bytheway: 00:56:10 Elder Bednar talks about looking for patterns, and where you see order and organization, you think, “How does this come out of Joseph Smith’s mouth this way? This is highly organized.” We are still noticing things, like Joe just did, that have never been talked about before. The book doesn’t say, “Now notice what I’m doing here.” Somebody just noticed it and it’s hard to miss, this is very orderly how this is put together here.

Hank Smith: 00:56:37 It’s a really fun way to think about Mormon, as he is putting it together. David, what else do you have for us before we let you go?

Dr. David Boren: 00:56:44 Okay. Final chapter, Alma 52. We get Amalickiah’s brother, Ammoron. Wow, we were hoping for a better leader and he proves to be just as rotten. Teancum and his men are going to try to take the city of Mulek. We learned how amazing Teancum is, and how strong his men are, but Teancum realizes, “Hey, this is bigger than me, I can’t do this on my own.” He waits for Moroni. That shows some humility, and I know that sometimes I struggle accepting help from others in the church. I know that sometimes members I work with don’t want to accept help. That’s a principle of the gospel, is asking for and receiving help.

Hank Smith: 00:57:30 And David, I like what you said there and being vulnerable to say, “I need help.”

Dr. David Boren: 00:57:36 Yeah, that’s a leadership lesson, great leaders know when to ask for help. Then Moroni comes and in verse 19, it says, “Moroni, and Teancum and many of the chief captains held a council of war, what they should do.” And we are a church of councils, we believe in councils. Elder Neil Anderson said, “Revelation is scattered among us.” President Ballard, who wrote that book on, Counseling with Our Councils, and spoke a lot about this. He says, “The best leaders are not those who work themselves to death trying to do everything single-handedly, the best leaders are those who follow God’s plan and counsel with their councils.” It says, “Working in councils broadens the base of experience and understanding, leading to better solutions, you prepare future leaders, you can lift much of the load from your shoulders, people can feel ownership of a problem. We can get the work done better in councils.” What have you seen that leads to effective decisions in action? When we are meeting with a ward council, or a quorum meeting, or a family council, or even a couple or any other council, what are some of those attributes that you’ve noticed?

Hank Smith: 00:58:49 I was really impressed, John. We had Sister Reyna Alberto on our show for Easter. If anybody missed that episode, go back, because she talks about her time, and they generally study presidency in councils. How many councils was she on, then how they wanted to listen to each other and how she kept telling Elder Bednar in one meeting, “I don’t mean to take so much time. I don’t mean to take so much time.” And Elder Bednar said, “You don’t need to apologize, we want to hear everything you have to say. Give us everything.” And then do you remember John, what she said? She said, “In a council, you put out your idea, but you’re not emotionally attached to your idea.” Let’s say you put out your idea. You think it’s a powerful one and the council doesn’t take your idea. She said, “Once you put it out there on the table, it’s no longer yours. It’s the council’s and you’re not emotionally attached to it.”

  00:59:43 That has helped me immensely since she taught us that, that I put it out there and it’s no longer about me, it’s about, like what you said, David, you quoted Elder Anderson there, I gave a piece of the revelation, but I didn’t receive the revelation. That’s the point of the council, is for me to give my piece and I’m not emotionally attached to it. I quote that all the time in our group thread with our podcast team, and we say, “Well, what should we do here? What should we do here?” And I say, “Here’s what I think. By the way, I’m not emotionally attached to this idea.”

John Bytheway: 01:00:17 Yeah. The idea of giving, that everyone is safe and sharing what they think creates a spirit. Without that, I don’t know how revelation inspiration can come, if people don’t feel safe, in sharing what they think. But with that, you’ve got the blessing of heaven, is going to help you out. And what is it, section 88? “Let not all be spokesmen at once, give everybody a chance to speak.” Every idea is safe. And particularly you’re having a ward youth council, you’ve got some young people there, it can be huge for them to see how their ideas are listened to and respected. They’re training to be future leaders when they’re in youth council, they’re going to watch how that meeting runs and that’s where they’re going to learn how to do it someday.

Dr. David Boren: 01:01:03 Yeah, those are fantastic. I mean, this is proof that councils are effective. You hit most of the things that I had listed for effective councils, and added to it. The multiplicity of ideas and voices and diversity of thought, really enriches our decisions. There are a few things in research that come through as important in councils, one is equality of airtime. It doesn’t mean everyone speaks the exact same amount of time, but that everybody contributes, you don’t want anyone dominating or anybody not participating. I mean, there’s no point in them coming if they don’t participate. The second one is ostentatious listening. The people are actually attending to what others are saying, they’re not on their phones, they’re not thinking about anything, they’re actually listening. Teams that have everyone scoring, do better than just having a superstar. Ostentatious listening.

  01:01:57 John, hit the next one. Make it safe. I love this quote by Elder Maxwell, with respect to councils, “We ought to build a climate around us in which we are in all situations open to the comments of others. We should not make it too expensive emotionally for others to try to communicate with us.” I think, “Ooh, I have been expensive emotionally to communicate with.” And then expecting candor and engagement, “We are actually going to speak our minds here. We’re going to make it safe where we can do that.”

  01:02:29 There’s a great story about Joseph Smith. Soon before his death, he created the Council of 50, and here’s what he said. He told them to speak their minds and to say what was in their hearts, whether good or bad. He did not want to be forever surrounded by a set of doughheads. He wanted them to speak. Brigham Young said, “When you come to a meeting, bring your minds with you.” We want people to speak up and to feel safe enough to actually share what they’re thinking, so that candor is important.

  01:02:57 And then John, you hit the last one, inviting the Lord into our councils. In first Nephi, Nephi and his brothers are trying to get the plates. It says, “Nephi and his brethren did consult one with another.” But it doesn’t mention anything about them consulting with the Lord. And it didn’t work.

Hank Smith: 01:03:12 Good point.

Dr. David Boren: 01:03:13 The first time, when they only talked to each other, I mean, we can counsel with-

Hank Smith: 01:03:16 Good point.

Dr. David Boren: 01:03:16 … each other all we want, but we really need to invite the Lord into our councils. Elder Christofferson said, “The objective is not simply consensus among council members, but revelation from God.”

  01:03:28 I love this quote by Henry Bennion Eyring, when he was first called to the first presidency, he gave a press conference, and you can Google this video, it’s great. He talks about his first experience with councils of the church, he says, “Here are the prophets of God and they are disagreeing in an openness I had never seen in business. I watched this process of them disagreeing and I thought, ‘Good heavens. I thought revelation would come to them all and they’d see things the same way.’ And it was more open than anything I’d seen in all the groups I’d ever studied. I was dumbfounded. But then after a while, the conversation cycled around and they began to agree. And I saw the most incredible thing, that here are these very strong, very bright people all with different opinions, and suddenly the opinions just begin to line up. And I thought, ‘I’ve seen a miracle. I’ve seen unity come out of this wonderful kind of open exchange that I’ve never seen in all my studies.’ We can be open, we can be direct, we can talk about differences in a way you can’t anywhere else because we’re all just looking for the truth and not trying to win. We’re not trying to make our argument or dominate, we’re trying to find what’s right.”

Hank Smith: 01:04:42 David, I’d like to ask one last question of you before we let you go, and that is, John and I frequently ask this of all of our guests, what are my major takeaways? As we walk away from this? What are you hoping people do, change, think about?

Dr. David Boren: 01:04:57 I will share three short thoughts. First one, on leadership, we talked about a lot of lessons. This quote by President Kimball sums it up for me, “Those individuals whom we most love, admire, and respect as leaders of the human family, are so regarded by us precisely because they embody in many ways, qualities that Jesus had in his life and his leadership.” We can disentangle all the leadership principles, try to list them out, but what would Jesus do? is probably the best leadership principle I can think of. If we’ll emulate him, we will lead righteously.

  01:05:34 And probably the second one actually comes from a scripture outside of this block. I think this scripture represents a lot of what we talked about in, 1 Nephi 14:14, Nephi’s vision, he says, “And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord who were scattered upon the face of the earth. And they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.” He was seeing our day. We are engaged in a latter-day war, and if we will seek to live our covenants, he will arm us with power and righteousness, and we will be able to fight these wars and battles that we have.

  01:06:27 So I think that would be one. And then I would testify of the Book of Mormon, again, that if you’re having a hard time, I would testify that the Book of Mormon will bring life to you. This is Russell M. Nelson, and you may have read this earlier, I can’t remember, “Few things build faith more than does regular immersion in the Book of Mormon. No other book testifies of Jesus Christ with such power and clarity. It’s prophets as inspired by the Lord, saw our day and selected the doctrine and truths that would help us most.” Even the war chapters, especially the war chapters, that’s my addition. The Book of Mormon is our latter-day survival guide, our ultimate security comes as we yoke ourselves to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Life without God is life filled with fear. Life with God is a life filled with peace. Even among these trying times, lead like the Savior, arm ourselves with righteousness and study the Book of Mormon. Those would be my takeaways.

Hank Smith: 01:07:30 I love it. John, David just walked us through 10 chapters, in the Book of Mormon. And it’s almost impossible and he did it.

John Bytheway: 01:07:37 Yeah. And some powerful quotations. It’s been great. Look at my pencil, it’s almost gone now. I’ve been marking so much.

Hank Smith: 01:07:45 Yeah, I was just marking along the way. I’ve read this book a lot and then I’m seeing things I’ve never seen before, it tells you about the book and tells you about our guest today.

  01:07:53 David, thanks for spending your time with us.

Dr. David Boren: 01:07:56 Oh, what a joy. How much fun is this?

Hank Smith: 01:07:58 And we could do this all day. With that, we want to thank Dr. David Boren for walking us through this first half of the War Chapters. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, who David mentioned earlier, David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder. And David, the fact that you quoted the Standard of Truth, that is the favorite quote of our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week, we’re going to cover more of the War Chapters on FollowHIM.