John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Brent Top, Alma 30 through 31.

Hank Smith: 00:06 So Brent, we’ve looked at Korihor and now we have Alma’s response. What do you want us to see here?

Dr. Brent Top: 00:13 Like John said earlier, there may be more to the story that’s not in the Book of Mormon record as to Korihor’s arrest and what crimes he had committed that would warrant his, I guess you’d say, arrest or being brought before the high priest and the chief judge. I do like the way that Alma reasons with Korihor and says, “Okay. You say this. You tell me why you say this and you have brought about so much pain and suffering. Why are you doing that?”

  00:53 Then we come and see right here, verse 35. Alma says, “Why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain?” Now I found that interesting once again. So now he’s throwing out a whole new thing. He’s contradicting his own philosophy. Well, if it doesn’t matter what people do, if they want to prosper according to their own skill and talent and ability, why do you care whether I prosper?

  01:24 And now, believest thou that we deceive this people that causes such joy in their hearts. Are we the ones that are causing the suffering there? But I love that Alma then said, Okay. Will you really deny? Will you deny God? Will you deny the Christ? And he says, Yep. I will. I will. And he says, What evidence do you have that there is no God? You’ve been saying everything has to be by evidence, by rationale and empiricism reason, science. And now Alma says, “Well, what evidence do you have that there is no God?”

  02:09 And I love it that Alma says, “You’ve got nothing. Look at what I’ve got.” And he gives the litany of all the different evidences that all things denote there is a God over in verse 44 there. All these things testify that there is a God. I have these witnesses. I have the scriptures. I have the holy prophets. I have these, your brethren that testify. If I were going to give that defense, I would say I have all of these things plus the things that I have experienced and seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears and felt with my heart.

  02:55 John, you said, “I don’t want this to be sacrilegious, but you say you wanted to have a Korihor object lesson.” Alma’s got the best object lesson for Korihor of all. When Korihor says, “Give me a sign.” It is that Alma is saying, “You will not believe anything else. You have perverted the ways of the Lord. Father in heaven, do with him what you see fit and bring a sign upon him.”

  03:32 I’ve often thought this is where my irreverence gets in the way sometimes, but sometimes I think it would be great if God just struck down people immediately when they did these terrible things. And then I start thinking, “Oh, I’m glad he doesn’t because I might be in that category where I’m deaf and dumb and all of those kinds of things with a sign, or I get stricken with leprosy.”

  03:57 I think that this becomes an example of consequences. As a mission president, and again, I use this example and every mission president can tell you their own stories of this and of trying to work with and redeem and to help a young struggling missionary to abide by the rules, to have a good mission, to feel the Spirit, to get along well with others, and teach the gospel and help others to love them, and you work with them, you work with them and you work with them.

  04:35 In reality, as my wife says, neither a missionary nor any human being ever runs out of time. They run out of desire. Alma is giving Korihor every opportunity to repent, every way to change, reasoning with him from the scriptures, giving him the evidences, but he was saying, “I love you, Korihor. I want you. You have so much potential.”

  05:12 We can hear all the things we’ve said to others as we’ve counseled and yearned for them to get on the covenant path, but as a mission president, as a bishop, as a stake president, sometimes as a parent where you reach a point, where they reach a point with their behaviors and their lack of desire where we cannot save them from the consequences.

  05:41 I can tell you, I have witnessed in my ecclesiastical, family, professional lives, there are worse things that come as a result of sin and disbelief than not being able to speak or hear or see. While this is maybe a sign of a very graphic nature, I think it is in a way merciful by comparison.

John Bytheway: 06:13 I love that he shifted the burden of proof. First of all, as soon as you accused Alma of he uses the words, you’ll glut yourselves off the labors of their hands. He has to come up with a motive. Why would somebody serve for that long with such energy and give so much? He has to come up with the reason. I think about the 12, our first presidency that are called to that position until when.

Hank Smith: 06:42 Yeah. Yeah. And maybe not even then, right? It probably continues. Here’s your new assignment, right, when thinking of the other?

John Bytheway: 06:50 I’m reminded of a time when I was at a dinner of some kind and Elder Ballard got up to speak and he said I was with President Packer. We were in talking to the New York media about the sesquicentennial. So guys, this was 1997, the sesquicentennial and the pioneers came to the valley.

  07:10 Elder Ballard said there were two questions, which no matter how hard we try to answer, the reporters were not satisfied. How do you get people to pay tithing? How do you get those young people to go on missions?

  07:23 See, Korihor has to come up with a reason. There must be some other thing. You’re glutting yourselves with the labors and Alma’s like, “Just a minute, Bucko. That’s not going to stand.” He tells him, but then I just love, as you said, how he says, “Where’s your evidence?” And the hierarchy of testimony here, you have my testimony, the testimony of thy brethren, testimony of the holy prophets, the scriptures and all things denote there is a God.

  07:48 There’s a great witness. I love what you said, Brent. He’s got nothing. I have all of this. I’m reminded of Steve Young recently wrote a book called The Law of Love, and he quoted a man who studied the human genome, the DNA code and was a scientist but had such a hard time because of the beauty and the symmetry and the design in the DNA code. He became a believer. He said, “I had to look at creation as an option here because how could this have happened?”

Hank Smith: 08:24 One thing I notice in these chapters is that Korihor seems to be calling out Alma’s behavior when he himself, just on the previous page basically said, “There is no bad behavior. There’s no such thing as bad behavior.” Yet he comes to Alma with, “You’re behaving badly.” Korihor’s argument to Alma is that you’re keeping people in bondage. I’m scared of this narrative for my children, which is you are the victim. You’re always the victim. You have no freedom. That scares me. Verse 27. What have you seen with that?

Dr. Brent Top: 09:02 I have family members that just think, “How is it possible that Brent and Wendy would do all these things and they can’t do this and they can’t retire and do all that.” And could it not be possible that this is what I choose because of what I know and what I’ve experienced.

  09:24 It is not bondage when I choose. And I knowingly choose because of the blessings that have come into my life. It goes back to that how can you believe the things you believe knowing what you know? How can I not believe the things that I believe? How can I not do the things that I do? How can I not be what I’m striving to become knowing what I know and what I have experienced?

  09:59 One of the things that I tried to do with missionaries I’ve tried to do in my own life, and I remember when Wendy and I were young newlyweds and we were on a walk and started to do this and it became such a great blessing.

  10:14 President Eyring has talked a lot about this gratitude is to think about all the ways that you have seen the hand of God in your life. How have you seen God in your life? How has Christ, his love, his sacrifice, his teachings, how has it been manifest in our lives?

  10:44 I have extended family members that are not in the church that think that our family is charmed in some way, that our life is charmed in some way, and they don’t know of the problems or challenges we have, but they look at us and think that somehow all of these blessings and all of the things that have come to us as a family just spontaneously erupted into our lives with no causation.

  11:19 No. There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven and I have seen it over and over and over again in my life. How can I not believe to be knowing what I know?

John Bytheway: 11:38 I saw a poster when I was a student at BYU and I just loved this idea. And it said, “Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.” Since that time, I’ve heard a couple of conference talks about hearing the music of the gospel. And Korihor has to explain. It must be you’re glutting yourselves or something because he can’t figure out why anybody would be so dedicated to this. Well, you hear the music of the gospel.

Hank Smith: 12:08 Brent, you’ve probably heard this quote before. You’ve pretty much quoted it in different words. This is an evangelical pastor said, “Real Christians do not carry their religion. Their religion carries them. It is not weight. It is wings. It sets them free from fear, discouragement and sin. Those are the enslavers of souls.” What you just described there is not a weight of the gospel but the wings of the gospel.

Dr. Brent Top: 12:40 That’s beautiful. I like that. I like that a lot. And in contrast, we started out on chapter 30 of my contrast of the Korihorism of the world today with what I’ve experienced the last couple of days in the temple with sealings and other ordinances. What a contrast between Alma and what his testimony is there that we’ve read of all of the different evidences and signs that he had.

  13:10 Then you look and see at verse 60, the end of the story, if you will. “Thus, we see that the devil will not support his children at the last day, but does speedily drag them down to hell.”

  13:27 Unfortunately, I have seen people dragged to hell on earth because of choices that they have made, philosophies they have espoused, things they ridiculed that would have protected them in so many ways. Being dragged down to hell is not just an eternal end product. There are those that being speedily dragged down to hell on earth.

  14:05 And again, like I said, my wife has said it so beautifully that people do not run out of Christ’s love. People do not run out of Christ’s mercy or grace. They do not run out of time. They run out of their own desire.

Hank Smith: 14:25 I think Elder Maxwell said those who over-celebrate their ability to feel will eventually lose their ability to feel. That’s a living hell.

John Bytheway: 14:36 I love when Alma shifted the burden of proof and said, “I know there is a God.” And how he started with personal testimony, and then went to the testimony of brother and the scriptures and all things in nature.

  14:49 And it reminded me of a time I was up at, a then especially for youth in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. There were a bunch of college students having a semi-friendly discussion with a bunch of counselors and they were arguing about the Book of Mormon and archeology and evidence. One of these counselors walked up, whose name was Nate Pinnock and he changed the entire tone of the discussion.

  15:14 He said very sincerely, “I have read the Book for Mormon. I’ve read every word of it and I have prayed about it and I know that book is true. And if you’ll do the same thing I did, you can know that it’s true too.” The whole discussion changed and the tone and everything, and I thought, “You learn that from Alma.” You start with this is how I know.

Hank Smith: 15:38 I’m reminded of our discussion on Second Nephi 27. It can’t be about the evidence, it has to be about the text. The evidence may convince you, but the text converts you. Brent, you made the side comment earlier, the Korihors of today prey upon the weak, the sick, and the young.

  15:58 Well, I was in a meeting where Sister Kathy Andersen shared a story. Her husband is Neil Andersen of the 12. She said that years earlier, she and her husband had been on a safari in Africa and this was one of the moments where John would say, “You have to listen with your spiritual ears.”

  16:19 She said, “We were on a safari in Africa and we came across this scene.” She said, “There was a big group of baboons and they were all silent staring at this scene. And there was a lion walking through their midst who had a baby baboon in its mouth and he was walking away.” And then she said, “You could only hear one sound. And it was two adult baboons in that crowd screaming.”

  16:54 And Sister Andersen is telling this story with tears running down her cheeks. And it wasn’t about the animals here. It was about what we see when the Korihors of today take a young or a weak or a sick soul and take them from those who love them most.

Dr. Brent Top: 17:15 You’re going to see in chapter 31 where Mormon is going to teach us the condition that led to the Zoramites and the Rameumptom, and that’s one of those things that I think you would see as evidenced how they fell into grave errors.

Hank Smith: 17:34 Well, that’s a great segue then, Brent. Take us to chapter 31.

Dr. Brent Top: 17:38 Okay. I can relate to it. And it goes along with the story that you told. You see down here at the end of verse one, to begin to see Alma’s feelings about what he has experienced with Korihor and what impact it has been having upon the people and from Zoram as well.

  18:00 He says, right at the very end he said, “His heart again began to sicken because of the iniquity of the people.” And then in verse two. “It was the cause of great sorrow to Alma to know of iniquity among his people, therefore his heart was exceedingly sorrowful because of the apostasy, the dissension.”

  18:29 You’ve flattered me with your introduction of my many experiences in the kingdom, but mine is nothing compared to those that we love and sustain as prophets, seers and revelators. And I have had enough experience to know that I have had similar Alma experiences and it makes me appreciate and sorrowful for those that preside over us with what they must know and what they must feel when they see the world and the conditions of the world ripening in iniquity and the impact that it has not only on the world and Heavenly Father’s children in general, but on families.

  19:20 If we jump to verse five, thought of this passage in a lot of different contexts. The preaching or the teaching, the discussing, the studying of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just, and it had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword or anything else.

  19:45 Now I’m just going to stop there and then I’ll come back to that part of the verse that is so familiar to us. Every mission president, every ecclesiastical leader encounters some problems and some challenges and there may sometimes be a culture within the unit or in the mission that isn’t one of obedience and righteousness.

  20:10 One of the things that I encountered, on our first mission, was how in the world do I get the missionaries not to motivate them to be their emotional and spiritual cheerleader, but how can I get them not just to obey the rules, to get them to work and go out and put in the hours that they’re supposed to put in, but how can I get them to be disciples of Christ and change the inner man and the inner woman?

  20:44 It was interesting that we went out in 2004 just as preach my Gospel was being introduced, and one of the things that we saw this scripture and President Packer’s statement about the study of doctrine will change behavior more than the study of behavior will. All of those passages or those statements that are very familiar to us, I was really struggling with the mission at one time and really I guess you’d say somewhat similar to Alma, sickened by iniquity or lack of obedience or lack of commitment.

  21:23 And Wendy said to me, “Believe in the promise.” And I said, “What do you mean believe in the promise?” And the promise was Alma chapter 31 verse five. And that President Packer had used that passage to talk about what impact the preaching of the word would have.

  21:46 We focused a great deal of attention on studying doctrine, studying the gospel and the scriptures and focusing on the scriptures. And we saw a dramatic change in the mission, not statistically, not necessarily by any program way, but the dramatic change was that when they came to understand the virtue of the word of God, that it made all the difference to them in their own lives.

  22:24 How often as a mission president that I hold up the little white handbook or now the standards book. Like this is my sword to try to get you to do something when in reality the power of the word is what changes missions and missionaries and brings about greater conversion. And that can only come from within.

  22:51 Alma says that it was expedient, that I, they, the missionaries and the sons of Mosiah, that they should try, not experiment on this, but to really give it the work. To try the virtue, and in fact the word virtue in many contexts and in Greek and Latin is often synonymous or similar to power. It is the power. Try the power of the word of God.

  23:35 Immediately say just like when we sing, “to Nephi, seer of olden time”, and we sing the song, the iron rod is the word of God and we think the word of God is scriptures. Well, it is that and it is the preaching of the word, but more than the scriptures. The scriptures themselves testify and Jesus himself testifies that he is the word of God. He is the word.

  24:09 And so I don’t think Alma is merely saying as we sometimes are led to assume by our lessons or talks in the church that it was expedient. Absolutely essential, the word expedient is far stronger than necessary. It is absolutely imperative. It is essential that they work with the power of Christ.

  24:41 The power of Christ. It’s not saying the power of the scriptures, even though I believe with all my heart that there is indeed a great power in the scriptures. But that which is going to change and transform us as we come to know Christ. That is what is more powerful than anything. It is not fear of hellfire and damnation that caused us to go on two missions when it wasn’t necessarily a comfortable, convenient time.

  25:18 It isn’t hellfire and damnation or a sword that causes us as parents to want to teach our children the principles of the gospel and strive to have meaningful standards and lessons of life in our homes. It’s our love for the Lord.

  25:39 When we have the love for the Lord and we try the power of Christ in our lives and in our actions, in our ministering that is more powerful than anything else. And that’s what we saw change more in anything else in our mission service was that when the missionaries found Christ inside themselves. I didn’t have to do a lot after that.

  26:12 I had a young sister on our most recent mission and she’s still out in her proselyting field and I won’t mention her name even though I’d love to give her a big shout-out and hopefully get a member meal for her somewhere. I know where she is, but she’d had a really, really difficult childhood, very difficult circumstances, and had been raised by a grandma because of the difficult things that she had had to encounter in her life.

  26:43 And when she said to me on one occasion, she said, “Because I love Jesus so much, I want to be a good missionary.” That’s more powerful than the white handbook, a mission president. It is more powerful than a companion yelling at you to get up at 6:29. It is more powerful than anything when we utilize the power of Christ in our own lives and in the lives of those we love. That makes all the difference.

Hank Smith: 27:31 I can see someone teaching the lesson on this section using one question from the manual, which Brent just exemplified for us. How have you seen the word of God lead people to do good things? That’s one question from the manual that I think you could take up an entire lesson just with the experiences like you’ve shared.

Dr. Brent Top: 27:55 Absolutely. I’m not in any way minimizing the word of God is scriptures because the word of God of scriptures should teach and testify of Christ and motivate us to incorporate that in our lives. I have to tell you, I’m not sure Leviticus has transformed my life that dramatically. I think that’s why we look at it that the power, the power of the word that is what changes us.

Hank Smith: 28:27 And the beginning was the word.

John Bytheway: 28:30 I put John chapter one verses one through three in my margin and that virtue, meaning power. I remember reading about that same idea of virtue being power when Jesus perceived that virtue had gone out of him when the woman touched the hem of his garment. Those are great synonyms to look at it. Try the power of the word of Christ.

Hank Smith: 28:53 Now, Brent, you’ve served as mission president twice, we’ve talked about that. This is quite the mission that they are sent on. Let’s go to the Zoramites, who are in a pretty dark place.

Dr. Brent Top: 29:07 I could not have handled it as well as these brethren were handling it. Can you imagine walking in and seeing that Rameumptom worship that very first time? I have to tell you because it’s so stunning to me that when I was a young seminary teacher in Arizona, I wanted my students to experience how stunning and how ludicrous, how revolting this whole experience is.

  29:39 I mean, this is your object, I guess, you’d say. If we want to focus on an object lesson, that when we got to this point in teaching, I actually offered the opening prayer in our seminary class standing on top of the desk in front of the room without giving them any notice whatsoever. I jumped up on the desk and started in on it with my modern-day version of the Rameumptom Prayer. And they were absolutely blown away.

  30:13 And speaking of frenzied mind, they were ready to haul me away, but then when I sat down and said, “Let’s turn to Alma 31.” They could relate to that because it was such a stark contrast to the way that we have been instructed to worship. The Rameumptom story is setting the stage for Alma’s great teachings in Alma 32.

John Bytheway: 30:46 I have noticed in the Book of Mormon, nobody is ever somewhat surprised, very mildly. “Oh, that’s interesting.” They are always some level of astonished. I’ve researched it. There’s one case of being less astonished at a sign or wonder after Samuel the Lamanite.

  31:01 Nine cases of being astonished, one case of being more astonished, two cases of being greatly astonished, nine more cases of being exceedingly astonished, or astonished exceedingly, but my friends, there is only one case of being astonished beyond all measure. We can’t measure it. It’s off the charts and that is after they hear this prayer on the Rameumptom.

Dr. Brent Top: 31:25 Got to be.

John Bytheway: 31:27 And if we ever get to see the events somehow of the Book of Mormon, I am so excited to see what that looks like to be astonished beyond all measure. What did we just see? And maybe that was your students that day in seminary.

Dr. Brent Top: 31:45 Well, I think there were some of the sweet, humble, young sisters in the class that were crying by the time I got a-

John Bytheway: 31:53 Yeah. What is he doing?

Dr. Brent Top: 31:55 They were astonished beyond measure.

John Bytheway: 31:57 All measure.

Hank Smith: 32:00 Brent, I love how you’ve related that. Could this be us? We look at it and go, oh, man. I’m glad that’s not me, but could we get together once a week to talk about how much better we are than everyone else? And then we go home and we don’t talk about God again until we’re back together again to talk about how great we are.

Dr. Brent Top: 32:20 And that God has chosen us and nobody else. The way you said it, Hank. It makes me think, “Oh, is it I? Is it I? Have I done that, that I’ve left the impression to my children or to others, to my non Latter-Day Saint friends that somehow I am a Zoramite and that I’ve left that impression that I am better than everybody else?”

  32:49 And you’re absolutely right. This chapter is astonishing beyond measure to me. Look at verse 30. “Oh, Lord God, how long wilt thou suffer that such wickedness and infidelity shall be among this people? How long?” I mean, we of all people ought to understand when a prophet is saying, “How long, oh, Lord?” The conditions are pretty bad.

  33:20 And Alma is saying, “How long are we going to allow this to happen?” And then look at this. “Oh, Lord, wilt thou give me strength that I may bear with my infirmities. For I am infirm, and such wickedness among this people doth pain my soul.” It’s not I’m an infirm man because of the fall of Adam and I’ve got a bad knee and a bad back. It is this pains my soul to the point that I am sick. I am absolutely sick with this wickedness. Then that gives us his prayer that I think is so beautiful.

  34:10 When you see it in that pain, that prophetic pain because of the wickedness of the world. “Oh, Lord, my heart is exceedingly sorrowful. Wilt thou comfort my soul in Christ. Oh, Lord, wilt thou grant unto me that I may have strength, that I may suffer with patience these afflictions.”

  34:37 What’s his affliction? His affliction is ministering to this wicked people and seeking to reclaim them from this terrible condition. Grant me that I may have strength, that I may suffer with patience because of the iniquity of this people.

  34:59 Verse 32. I love these passages. I love them as a missionary. I love them as a leader, as I’ve loved them as a father and as a preacher. “Oh, Lord, wilt thou comfort my soul and give unto me success and also my fellow laborers who are with me.” Then come down after giving the names of the four sons of Mosiah and Amulek there of course.

  35:27 And he said, “Wilt thou comfort their souls in Christ?” He’s not saying give them great missionary skills. Yes. I know that Amulek has just been reactivated. Give him some extra skills. Give them comfort in Christ.

  35:49 33 and 34. “Wilt thou grant unto them that they may have strength, that they may bear their afflictions which shall come upon them because of the iniquities of this people?” Oh, little did Alma know at the time when he was offering that prayer what was going to beset them. Wilt Thou grant unto us that we may have success to bringing them again unto thee in Christ.

  36:19 Oh, Lord, verse 35. And this is back to their souls are precious like all the others. Oh, Lord, give unto us power and wisdom that we may bring this our brethren again unto thee.

  36:38 Then that beautiful setting apart in verse 36. The laying or clapping his hands upon their heads, setting them apart for this incredible mission, this incredibly difficult mission. This one has got anything that I’ve ever experienced by a long shot. And when I was set apart the first time as a mission president, President Packer laid his hands on my head and very simply after giving me the keys and setting me apart, said, “I bless you that you will not panic when you have every reason to panic.”

  37:18 And holy cow, look at what the sons of Mosiah and Alma and Amulek are facing. And Alma’s praying for them to have success. Then look down in verse 38. The moral of the story here, if you will. “And the Lord provided for them that they should hunger not neither should they thirst, yea, and he also gave them strength that they should suffer no manner of afflictions save it were swallowed up unto the joy of Christ. That is the kind of missionary work and the ministering work and the parenting work and the grandparenting work and the neighborly work. That’s the kind of success that I have, that I have no manner of affliction concerning the souls of those that I love, save it be swallowed up in the joy of Christ.

Hank Smith: 38:27 Brent, you pointed out the difference between these two prayers. Don’t you think that could be a lesson of Alma 31, compare this prayer to this prayer and you’re going to learn a lot about prayer.

Dr. Brent Top: 38:39 I think you’re right on target there. Alma’s contrasting prayer not only is such a astonishing beyond measure contrast to the Rameumptom prayer, but it also serves as a great example for Amulek and the sons of Mosiah as they go forward and are going to face unbelievable afflictions on their missions to see the prayer of their file leader, if you will, of their mission president, and we see the blessings that will come by reason of their faith when they quote Zenos and Zenock and the prayers.

  39:29 The upcoming chapters I think highlight that, but it reminds me of in the New Testament when the disciples said to Jesus, “Teach us to pray.” I think they knew how to pray, and they certainly had the Psalms and knew how to pray in the traditional way that they had been taught in synagogue. I think they were saying, “Teach us to pray as you pray.”

  39:58 You think of the most powerful prayers in the Book of Mormon. Alma’s here has got to be one of the greatest, but those most powerful prayers come in time of great need and great suffering. The anguish of the soul thinking of Nephi getting up on the roof of his house and crying out his heart and soul. Think of Nephi pleading with the Lord as his brothers were going to kill him. Think of all of the great prayers, but most of all think of the Savior’s prayer among the Nephites and the Lamanites and among the children especially and when people said they could not even record or utter the greatness of his prayers.

  40:52 I think we get a little bit of a glimpse of that with Alma’s prayer in Alma chapter 31. Clearly, it is a contrast with the Rameumptom and I have to admit. In our family, we’ve had probably more Rameumptom-type blessings on the food than Alma’s soulful prayers of petitioning. You think of some of the prayers that we have that are just wrote prayers. I mean, we can mock the Zoramites all we want, but we may not stand up on a Rameumptom, but sometimes we blow through prayers as if we think that God has chosen us above all other people of everything and we don’t need to plead with him for our souls or for anything else.

John Bytheway: 41:44 I really like the idea of let’s not laugh at these silly Zoramites because we might see ourselves in these. And I mean, this year the youth scriptural theme is the Third Nephi 5:5. I am a disciple of Jesus Christ.

  41:58 The youth program is to create lifelong disciples of Christ, not part-time disciples of Christ or one-time disciples of Christ or Sunday disciples of Christ, and that phrase there in verse 23, they prayed after this manner, then returned to their homes, never speaking of their God again, change your church clothes, your church music, mid-video, whatever. Never speaking of God again until they’d assembled themselves together to the holy stance. You’re right, Brent. There’s a little bit of, is it I?

Dr. Brent Top: 42:31 The root word of religion and it’s the L-I-G portion in the middle there is the same root word of ligament. The ligament that holds it all together and gives it strength. What the Zoramites are experiencing or what we may be like that way of that we think religion is only attending church, is it’s not holding everything of our lives together.

  43:03 It’s not true religion, undefiled, if you will, when it is that ligament that gives my knee strength. That without that ligament I cannot function. That is different than church attendance or church affiliation. Religion in that sense is that it is the very way of being that holds every aspect of your life together. I think that’s exactly what we’re learning from that Rameumptom prayer.

Hank Smith: 43:40 John, I’ve heard you talk about Zeezrom. Remember way back in Alma 12, where he talks to Zeezrom. Alma doesn’t seem to have an us versus them mentality. Look at Alma 31:35. “Behold, oh Lord, their souls are precious. I’m concerned about them.” Do you remember what he said to Zeezrom?

John Bytheway: 44:02 This was the plan?

Hank Smith: 44:05 Yeah. That’s what I’m thinking of.

John Bytheway: 44:06 Look, Hank and I have done this podcast so long we know what each other’s thinking. He said to Zeezrom. This was the plan of thine adversary, which was so interesting to me. Not the adversary, but Zeezrom he’s against you too. This was the plan of thine adversary. Don’t get confused about who’s on your side and who isn’t on your side.

  44:28 I’ve always loved that. I’m on your side, Zeezrom. And thankfully, Zeezrom is one of those that goes from gotcha questions to golden questions and there’s a place coming up where when they’re thrown in prison and listened to the words of Alma and Amulek and Zeezrom, all three of those guys had an interesting past. How cool is that?

  44:52 Amulek was living beneath his privileges. Alma was trying to destroy the church. Zeezrom was being a clever lawyer and now look at him. Pretty cool.

Dr. Brent Top: 45:03 What is the difference between Alma’s dealing with Zeezrom and Korihor? Why is Zeezrom redeemed, if you will, and Korihor even after he said, “I’ve always believed, I’ve known, but I didn’t know.” It makes you wonder, and it has to be that idea of desire and of a willingness to even take those next steps towards Christ.

John Bytheway: 45:39 Isn’t it interesting that right after Korihor who says, “There is no God. There is no Christ.” He was an anti-Christ. We have the Zoramites who say, “There is a God.” But right in their prayer, you have elected us. We’re not saved by atonement. You just chose us arbitrarily, and you’ve made it known unto us there will be no Christ.

  45:59 And then listen to this phrase in verse 17, very Korihor. “Oh God, we thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth,” what’s the word? “Bind them down to a belief in Christ.” That was a Korihor thing. You’re bound and yoked and frenzied and foolish.

Dr. Brent Top: 46:18 And it’s almost as if they have been in their own little Korihor echo chamber and that they listen to Korihor and listen to each other and pat each other on the back and give each other awards and they stand up and recount how wonderful they are, but they do not see the hand of God anywhere else in their lives.

John Bytheway: 46:45 I think this becomes huge when Alma asks them to plant the word. Who is the word? Because they said in their prayer, we don’t believe in Christ and it’s a lesson in faith, but what they have to plant is Christ in their hearts.

Hank Smith: 47:04 You know what you could do if you wanted to set these two prayers side by side with the Savior’s parable of the Pharisee and the publican.

John Bytheway: 47:11 Yeah.

Dr. Brent Top: 47:12 That’s a good example.

Hank Smith: 47:13 They’re very similar side by side.

John Bytheway: 47:17 I fast twice in a week. I give tithes of all that I possess.

Hank Smith: 47:21 I’m pretty amazing. Aren’t you glad I’m on your team?

John Bytheway: 47:26 Let me outline a few of my accomplishments for you.

Dr. Brent Top: 47:29 Well, and it goes back and again, I don’t want this to come across as being too diminishing of it. We hear this phrase all the time. You are enough. You are just so wonderful. We are always doing that. Let’s just be careful and recognize you are enough because you have been bought by the blood of Christ.

  47:51 You are enough. You have the strength to do anything, not just because you’re wonderful but because you’ve been redeemed. You’ve been given, you have divine DNA within you. That’s an example of the Zoramite, Korihor philosophy that if we are not careful can creep into and become a little bit of a sandstorm that would blind our eyes and cloud our focus on the rod of iron and the tree of life. Even though I like to be told I’m wonderful and all that type of stuff, I think I recognize that I’m not wonderful enough to overcome my afflictions, my trials, and tribulations and certainly my fall of Adam existence by just being, quote, “enough.” If that makes sense to you.

Hank Smith: 48:53 What was it that Lehi said to Jacob? I know that thou art redeemed because of the righteousness of your Redeemer.

John Bytheway: 49:01 Your Redeemer, not because you’ve been such a good boy.

Dr. Brent Top: 49:04 That’s right. That’s Doctrine & Covenants section 45. That’s the example of the Mediator. When we read in section 45 where the Savior goes before the father and is mediating on behalf of the people. He said, “Father, behold thy son.” And basically is saying, Save these people because they have believed on me, but because of me. Save them because of me and my blood and my redemption, not just because they’re neighbors, not just because they’re wonderful folks, save them because of me and they have believed on me.

Hank Smith: 49:53 I had forgotten about that, Brent. That’s section 45. Listen to him who is the advocate. John, what do you say? Don’t look at them. Look at me.

John Bytheway: 50:02 He’s not talking about what you did.

Dr. Brent Top: 50:06 Yeah. He’s not presenting him to the Father as being so wonderful. He’s standing humbly before the father and says, “Behold my sufferings. Behold what I have done and these are they who have believed on me.”

John Bytheway: 50:22 Yeah. Yeah. I think Elder Christofferson quoted verses recently in General Conference too. Section 45 verse 4. “Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased, behold the blood of thy son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified.”

  50:43 He’s not talking about what we did. He’s talking about what he did. “Wherefore father spare these, my brethren, my sisters that believe on my name that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.” And I think that means something to him when he sees us witness unto God that we are willing to take upon us the name of his son.

  51:07 And think of that, it has some sacrament language in it. We are not just willing but honored to take upon us the name of Christ in that place.

Dr. Brent Top: 51:16 It goes along with some of the things we talked about with Korihor in chapter 30. Taking upon us the name of Christ and also in contrast to the Zoramite, Rameumptom prayer. Those faithful disciples, there is a phrase that Nephi uses where he says, “They have endured the shame of the world. They have endured and carried, borne the crosses of the world.”

  51:47 There’s no shame in enduring Christ, but there is difficulty in trusting in the Lord when others are shaming us. And I think that’s what we learned of having Christ as the central focus of our lives that will swallow up those moments of shame and difficulty and tribulation and maybe even those times when we wonder if Korihor might’ve had it right, that it is Christ that will then shatter that illusion.

Hank Smith: 52:29 When you get one of these Korihors or Zoramites in your life and they start to rock your faith and you feel like you’re not unshakable like Jacob, come back to Christ. He’ll shatter that doubt and that fear that comes.

  52:44 What we’ve been talking about today brings up one of my favorites from Elder Maxwell. This was 33 years ago, but it still applies today. He said, “Yes. It is a time in which the things of the spirit look like foolishness to more and more people on this planet, but those who know, know that they know.”

  53:09 Brent, this has been wonderful going through just two chapters. I feel strengthened and I hope to strengthen my family against the apostasy of today. I think our listeners would like to know Brent, whether they’re out folding laundry or whether they’re walking to class or maybe they’re even a missionary out in San Diego or Peoria and they’re listening.

  53:36 You have so much breadth of experience. The dean of the Religion Department, mission president twice, stake president. You’ve had personal interactions with the leaders of the church. What should I walk away with? What do you hope we see? Why should our listeners believe?

Dr. Brent Top: 53:57 I have had a lot of wonderful experiences. I have had a lot of opportunities to serve. I have had a lot of challenging assignments and difficulties, and I’ve had my share of challenges with trying to be a good parent. I’ve had my share of challenges of heartaches when things don’t turn out the way that you think they should, but what warrants my belief is my knowledge that my life is better when I seek to follow him.

  54:42 I have enough experience, whether you call it a breadth of experience, a depth of experience or not learning from experience. I have enough to know that I know. Today when I married this young couple in sealing room number one in the St. George Temple with grandmas and grandpas and fathers and mothers and friends and missionary companions and loved ones all around them. As you listen to the promises and the blessings that are pronounced in that sealing ordinance, that crowning ordinance of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m a believer because those are the promises that matter to me.

  55:40 And all the other stuff, and it means stuff. All the other stresses, doesn’t mean they’re not real or painful or not legitimate in some way, but they pale in comparison to all of those blessings pronounced upon my head. That is my testimony.

  56:08 Now it may not be reasonable to some, for others it may resonate, but for me, it has given me strength and it has been my joy to follow the Master. And while I have not always been perfect and while I have not always been what I would want to be in all the areas of my life, I have the absolute assurance that the atonement of Jesus Christ will make it as though I always have been.

Hank Smith: 56:49 Brent, thank you for your time today.

Dr. Brent Top: 56:51 Thank you. Well, I love you guys and you do such great work, so I like to tell people I knew you before you were famous.

John Bytheway: 57:04 My life is better because you talked to us today. Thank you.

Dr. Brent Top: 57:07 Well, thank you. It was my privilege to be able to ponder and think about two chapters in the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith: 57:15 Yeah. If you’re listening and want Brent to know where you’re listening from, come on to YouTube and tell us where you’re listening from. It’s fun to show our guests where their voice has been heard throughout the world.

  57:27 With that, we want to thank Dr. Brent Top for being with us today. It has been wonderful. I don’t want it to end. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. And every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen.

  57:44 We hope you’ll join us next week. We have more of the Zoramites coming up on followHIM. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website. Followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. On our website, you’ll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments.

  58:15 The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else. If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to rate, review and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find.

  58:33 Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

  58:45 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.