John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Daniel Sharp, Alma chapters 8 through 12.

  00:07 I’ve always thought it was strange that he gets kicked out, departed hence, as you said. He comes back in with Amulek and then they say, “Who’s God that sends us no more authority than one man?” Well, they apparently didn’t recognize that Amulek was his companion now. And then Alma’s like, “Okay, God’s going to level this place. Now my companion would like to tell you the same thing. Go ahead, Elder.” And Amulek gets up and it says in Alma 10:12, “the people began to be astonished seeing there was more than one witness who testified of the things they were accused which.” There’s that law of witnesses.

  00:50 I’m glad you guys are talking about this because maybe we don’t think of it as much as they did, but when Amulek got up and he’s like, “You guys know me, I’m a man of no small reputation,” and he says it, that’s when they’re like, “Oh, wait a minute.” They began to be astonished.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 01:04 Yeah. And it seems that at least some portion of this crowd is lawyers and judges because they’re going to take a prominent role in the story. This idea of witnesses, John, as you pointed out, you referred to the law of witnesses. This is a reference to Deuteronomy 19:15, which says that “one witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin and any sin that he sinneth at the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses shall the matter be established.”

  01:36 As Alma’s standing up and saying, “Look, God’s told me this is your crime. I’m witnessing against you your crime.” They’re saying, “Look, we’re following the law of Moses. One witness isn’t going to cut it. This isn’t good enough.” So now once you’ve got that second witness, it’s like, “Uh-oh, we better do something to undermine that second witness, otherwise we stand condemned according to this law.”

John Bytheway: 01:58 And that’s when the lawyers popped up. Good point.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 02:01 Exactly. So the rest of the time is the lawyers trying to undermine Amulek as a valid witness because Deuteronomy goes on and talks about how in verse 16 through 19, that was Deuteronomy 19:15, the law of witnesses, 16 to 19 talks about how to deal with a false witness, that a false witness, if someone bears a false witness, then that false witness should get the punishment instead, that that’s a real crime.

  02:26 What we’re going to see is they’re trying to undermine Amulek as a witness, and you might be thinking like, “Why does this matter? Why is this so important?” It has to do with this law of witnesses.

John Bytheway: 02:35 Uh-oh. Okay, we got to take this guy on now because the law just got involved.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 02:41 This also gives us another insight, theoretically anyway, into the teachings of Nehor that Nehor while being an antichrist, apparently these people who were mostly followers of Nehor seem to accept the Old Testament.

  02:56 We see amongst some apostate groups in the Book of Mormon, whether it’s the wicked priests of Noah, or in this case, people who are interpreting the Old Testament in a way where they don’t think they need a messiah. Do you remember Abinadi’s question: Do you think salvation comes by the commandments alone? And the wicked priests of Noah saying, yes, this is where salvation comes through the commandments.

  03:17 Just because these people aren’t of the church of God that Alma is, doesn’t mean they don’t have any sort of scripture background. Seems to be they do have a common belief. They have a different interpretation of it.

Hank Smith: 03:28 So here comes the lawyers, right?

John Bytheway: 03:31 Hank, that is exactly what I wrote in my margin. Deuteronomy 19:15. Here come the lawyers.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 03:39 They start to interact with these lawyers, yes. You can see that for example, Alma chapter 10, verse 17 to 23, this is where Amulek kind of calls out the people. Now he’s talking more for himself. And the first part is testimony is pretty much following Alma, but now he’s using language similar to Alma. So if you compare like Alma 10: 17, which says, “Now they knew not that Alma could know their designs, but it came to pass that as they began to question him, he perceived their thoughts and he said to them, ‘Oh, you wicked and perverse generation'” which is recall the same thing that Alma had called these people back in Alma chapter 9 verse 8. He’s using similar language. He says, “Ye lawyers and hypocrites, you’re laying the foundation for the devil for ye are laying traps and snares to catch the holy people.”

  04:26 The lawyers in attempting to make Amulek cross his words so they can call him a false witness so there won’t be two witnesses against them, in order to do that, they’re not doing that sincerely. The lawyers themselves are becoming false witnesses against Amulek. Amulek is using the same law to condemn them.

  04:46 So in verse 24, the lawyers are going to respond and they’re going to say, “This man, Amulek, doth revile against our laws, which are just and our wise lawyers whom you have selected.” And what’s hilarious is, I think hilarious, Amulek’s going to respond and say, “No, I didn’t say anything against your law, just your lawyers.” He never denies having called out their lawyers. He says in verse 26, “Behold, have I testified against your law?” That’s a question, right? Yeah. Do you want to read that for us, John?

John Bytheway: 05:19 Yeah. Alma 10:26, “For behold, have I testified against your law? Ye do not understand; ye say that I have spoken against your law; but I have not, but I have spoken in favor of your law, to your condemnation.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 05:33 Maybe I’m understanding it wrong, but the way I understand this is the law they’re referring to is this law of witnesses. And what he’s saying is you’re trying to argue against me by saying I’m a false witness. That makes you a false witness. So I’m not arguing against your law. I’m using your law to prove that you are going to be condemned because you’re in fact, the false witness. That’s kind of what this battle going back and forth.

  05:54 But we did skip over I think an important part that I want to pause on, and that’s the prayers of the righteous, which are here in these verses as well. Should we look at Alma 10:23? Do you want to read that for us?

Hank Smith: 06:07 Yeah, sure. This is Amulek speaking. “It is by the prayers of the righteous that ye are spared; now therefore, if ye will cast out the righteous from among you then will not the Lord stay his hand; but in his fierce anger he will come out against you; you shall be smitten by famine, pestilence, and sword; and the time is soon at hand except ye repent.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 06:30 Unfortunately, or horribly or however you want to say it, the people of Ammonihah are going to burn the believers and they’re going to destroy them, and some of them are going to flee. The city of Ammonihah, we’ve foreshadowed already or read the scripture, will be destroyed, but it is not destroyed until all of the righteous have left.

Hank Smith: 06:49 Someone might walk away from this story as you read about the destruction of Ammonihah and think, “Wow, the Lord is very aggressive and angry with these people,” when it seems if you choose to do this, this is what’s going to happen. And how many times have they warned them?

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 07:07 Yeah, it’s important to realize that Alma went there in the first place just to tell them to repent or whatever, like a normal missionary. And when they wouldn’t, the angel turned them back and said, “Go tell them again. If they don’t repent, not only will they suffer problems later, they’re going to be cut off now, they’re going to be destroyed. Make sure they have a chance.”

Hank Smith: 07:28 It’s not a popular message, but it’s an important message.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 07:32 On that cheery note in chapter 10 verse 30, up through chapter 11 verse 20, we kind of get introduced to Zeezrom. Now remember that the start of chapter 11 verse 1, as I talked about already as sort of an arbitrary break here to make this more manageable I guess as a section, but in the original published Book of Mormon, and in the original dictation, most likely on the gold plates, this was part of the same chapter. So as we start with chapter 10, verse 30, we meet Zeezrom. Do you want to read 31 and 32?

John Bytheway: 08:08 “And now there was one among them whose name was Zeezrom. Now he was the foremost to accuse Amulek and Alma, he being one of the most expert among them, having much business to do among the people. Now, the object of these lawyers was to get gain; and they got gain according to their employ.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 08:25 Someone anyway, whether it’s Alma or Mormon is going to give us a summary of the monetary system of how judges are paid and what coins values are. It seems to me it only serves one purpose. In verse 22 Zeezrom is going to offer Amulek six onties of silver. It seems to me that the main purpose of all this discussion of monetary stuff is to let you know how much money that is. If you do the math, it comes to 42 days of pay for an attorney.

Hank Smith: 08:56 And then 11:12, ezrom, it’s almost like Zeezrom, almost like there’s a play on how much he loves money.

John Bytheway: 09:03 Wow, I think you’re right here, Dan. Either it’s Alma or Mormon wants us to know how much Amulek is getting offered.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 09:12 Yeah. So if you look at verse 20 again of chapter 11, it says “Now, it was the sole purpose to get gain, because they received their wages according to their employ, therefore, they did stir up the people to riotings, and all manner of disturbances” and so forth and so forth. And then at the end of the verse it says, “therefore they did stir up the people against Alma and Amulek.”

  09:32 The fact that they’re referring to Alma and Amulek in the third person as opposed to Amulek and myself is why I think that this is actually a Mormon insertion and not an Alma insertion. Does that make sense?

John Bytheway: 09:44 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 09:44 Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 09:45 You’ll see that a few times throughout here where we refer to Alma and Amulek in the third person and you don’t have the I anymore. And maybe that was a choice of the author, or maybe that’s how Alma talks about himself. I don’t know.

John Bytheway: 09:54 And maybe Mormon is trying to show us how they were so specific with their money. Because he does bookend it with verse 32. “It was the object of these lawyers to get gain.” You go over to verse 20, “It was the sole purpose to get gain.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 10:11 I think that that bookend is even more clear when you stop seeing chapter 11 as a break, when you see it as one flowing unit.

  10:18 Let’s focus though. What’s really interesting though is the plan of redemption as outlined by Alma in chapter 12 and the role of Christ as outlined here in chapter 11. Zeezrom says, “Look, can I ask you some questions?” And Amulek basically says, “Sure.” But I think it’s interesting that the first thing Zeezrom says is not a question at all. “Here’s some money. Deny Christ.” He goes, “Can I ask you some questions?” “Yes.” “If you’ll deny the existence of a supreme being,” that’s verse 22, “here’s six onties of silver.” In other words, 42 days worth of work. “I’ll give it to you if you’ll deny a supreme being.”

  10:50 Why does he want him to deny a supreme being? Because then this would show that he was a false witness and it would undermine him as a witness. It would put Alma as a single witness and give him reason to accuse Amulek, which therefore apparently by being able to accuse Amulek, I guess it gives Zeezrom a job.

  11:09 There’s another important point, but back in Alma chapter 1, when we were introduced to Nehor, we also learned something else about Nephite law, which is maybe a little bit distinct from just Deuteronomy. In Alma chapter 1 verse 17, it said that “the people durst not lie, if it were known, for fear of the law, for liars were punished; therefore, they pretended to preach according to their belief; the law could have no power on any man for his belief.”

  11:37 You were allowed to believe whatever you wanted in this society. But if you lied about what you believed, that was a problem. Amulek has already testified in the existence of God, of a supreme being. Now Zeezrom’s trying to get him to deny it so that he can point out he’s a false witness, undermine the witnesses.

John Bytheway: 11:56 You say you lied about your belief. Wow, interesting.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 11:59 Yeah. And therefore I can accuse you, take you to a court, cha-ching, get some onties-

John Bytheway: 12:06 Gets some onties to fill up my car.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 12:07 Yeah. Of course Amulek, he doesn’t fall for it. And he says, “I’m not going to deny that.”

  12:11 And then we get to Alma 11:26 to 29. Can we just read that?

Hank Smith: 12:16 Alma 11:26. “And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 12:32 Before we go on and try to figure out what Amulek is talking about here, I think it’s important to understand who Amulek is referring to when he talks about the true and living God. Remember that Zeezrom said, “Will you deny there is a supreme being,” back in verse 22. If you take this money and deny the supreme being, you’ll be all good. In verse 25, Amulek says, “It was only your desire, Zeezrom that I should deny the true and living God that you might have cause to destroy me.” So that’s where this phrase true and living God entered the conversation. Amulek brought it up saying, “You told me to deny the true and living God,” even though that wasn’t exactly the phrase Zeezrom used. And now Zeezrom says, “Do you say there’s a true and living God?” And then Amulek says, “Yea there is a true and a living God.”

  13:20 I bring that up because if he said that it’s possible to come away thinking, “Oh, he’s talking about a true God, and a living God,” two separate beings. And that seems to be how Zeezrom is partially interpreting this because his next question is, “Is there more than one God,” to which Amulek responds no.

  13:39 Zeezrom’s question makes a little bit less sense in light of the current textual version we have of this text, because what Amulek is saying is there is a true and a living God. Who is that? What does that mean? So let’s look at Jeremiah 10:10, shall we? This will give us an Old Testament, roughly contemporary with Lehi on true and living God and what this might mean.

John Bytheway: 14:02 Okay, I’ve got it here, Jeremiah 10:10. “But the Lord is the true God. He is the living God and an everlasting king. At his wrath, the earth shall tremble and the nation shall not be able to abide his indignation.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 14:18 Thank you. And again, here you see that these are separate titles. He’s a true God. He’s a living God. And the description here is for the Lord.

John Bytheway: 14:26 Yeah, it’s in small capitals, meaning it’s Jehovah.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 14:31 The original text here said Jehovah. Maybe Yahweh. We’ll pronounce it Jehovah. This is the name. The true and living God, the true God and the living God are both titles for Jehovah. This is the God that they believed in.

  14:47 Now, why would Amulek say there’s only one God if he’s talking about Jesus? Where’s Heavenly Father in this equation? Why would you answer there’s only one God if who he’s referring to is Jesus?

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 15:00 And I think it’s important to look at Exodus 20:2 and 3 in order to understand how the ancient Nephites would’ve understood this being a people who followed the law of Moses. This is one of the 10 Commandments. It’s pretty famous, but I’m not sure we always think about what it’s actually saying, Exodus 20:2 and 3.

John Bytheway: 15:19 “I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 15:29 Again, what do you notice about this commandment? Who is the Lord God that is commanding them to have no other gods beside them? The word Lord, again, if you are looking at the written text, you see is written in those all capitals sort of small capitals. But this is the technique the King James translators used to indicate that the original Hebrew text had the word Jehovah here.

John Bytheway: 15:49 Okay.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 15:50 For the Nephites, this is an important point, Jehovah is their God. It is the God who they covenanted with. It is the father of their covenant, the person who covenanted with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That’s Jehovah. The person who appeared to Moses on the Mount Sinai and gave the 10 Commandments is Jehovah. The person who is the object of their worship throughout this text is Jehovah. This is, for them, their God.

  16:20 At first, this may be really confusing for us as Latter-day Saints because we don’t follow the law of Moses really, first of all. Most biblical scholars now, not just Latter-day Saints scholars, but most biblical scholars understand that the ancient Hebrews believed in what was called the Council of the Gods.

  16:38 If the listeners want to see sort of a quick little rundown, there’s an interesting YouTube video done by this group called the BibleProject because I want to emphasize, again, this isn’t a Latter-day Saint concept. This is a pretty current scholarly concept, the idea of the Divine Council. Because you might hear this and think, oh, this is the church trying to force their ideas.

  16:56 But the idea is that there is a Divine Council. There’s a most high God who has a child God. Now in some versions of the Divine Council, the most high God has several children, and many of the stories of the Old Testament seem to be of a battle between Jehovah, who is the God of Israel, and the gods of these other countries, other nations. And there’s some question, and it depends a little bit on the story and the interpretation of that story, whether it’s a question of both of these gods are children of the most high God or whether Jehovah is the only child of the most high God and everyone else is false gods.

John Bytheway: 17:37 Yeah, that makes sense.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 17:38 The Book of Mormon is quite clear that there is a most high God who has a son and that son’s name is Jehovah, and Jehovah is the God who has created the heaven and the earth. He is the Son of the most high God, but He Himself because He’s divine, He lives in heaven, He Himself is a God.

  17:57 The Book of Mormon makes it clear. Jehovah is Himself divine and is the one who made the heaven and earth. This is really a central message of the Book of Mormon, the idea that Jesus is Jehovah, the God of Israel, the person who made that covenant and that He personally has come down to earth to atone for the sins of His people.

  18:24 When Amulek is answering Zeezrom and he says to him, “There is one God and it is the true and living God,” he’s answering this from the point of view of a Nephite, who is saying, “For us, in the law of Moses, there is only one God with whom we interact. Everybody else is a false god. All those other so-called members of the Divine Council are not real. This is our God.” It’s not a statement of saying there’s no such thing as a heavenly father. I think too often we read modern Trinitarian ideas into the Book of Mormon because we don’t understand the ancient context.

Hank Smith: 19:03 That’s fascinating.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 19:05 Let’s keep going and see how Zeezrom then responds to this. Who will read verse 30 and 31?

Hank Smith: 19:12 This is Alma 11:30. “Now, Zeezrom said unto him again, “How knowest thou these things?” 31, “And he said, ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.'” 32, “Zeezrom said again, ‘Who is he that should come? Is it the Son of God?'” That’s interesting. I remember you saying earlier, Dan, that he doesn’t say, “That’s crazy.” He just keeps going.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 19:33 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 19:34 Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 19:34 He ignores that whatsoever. “Yeah, okay, that’s fine.” Verse 33, “And he said unto him, ‘Yea.'”

  19:38 So the next question is, okay, wait a second, Dr. Sharp, Daniel, Dan, whatever, Danny Boy, whatever you want to call me, you just went on explaining that Amulek is saying that there is only one God and that God is Jehovah. And yet here, Zeezrom asks him, “Is the person who comes the son of God,” and you’re saying, and Amulek answers yes. Doesn’t this now suggest that the person coming is different than Jesus or different than Jehovah and isn’t that false doctrine? Like what is really being said here?

  20:15 So in Mosiah 13:28, in the midst of this sort of conversation about does redemption come from the law of Moses or come from somewhere else, in Mosiah 13:28 Abinadi says, “And moreover I say unto you that salvation doth not come by the law alone and were it not for the atonement, which God Himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of His people, that they must unavoidably perish notwithstanding the law of Moses.”

  20:45 And he goes on in verse 33 and 35 and brings out this point more. “Did not Moses prophesy unto them concerning the coming of the Messiah and that God should redeem His people? Yea, and even all the prophets who have prophesied ever since the world began, have they not spoken more or less concerning these things? Have they not said that God Himself should come down among the children of men and take upon Him the form of man and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? Have they not said also that He should bring to pass the resurrection?”

  21:17 Like you said, he goes on and quotes Isaiah 53, and the whole purpose of that is just to prove that Jehovah is the one who’s going to be the suffering servant, that God Himself would come down amongst the children of men.

  21:28 Sometimes we forget this aspect of the Book of Mormon. We talk about Jesus is the Christ, but we forget one of the central messages. If we go to the title page of the Book of Mormon, the part that says, “The Book of Mormon account written by the hand of Mormon…”

Hank Smith: 21:42 “The eternal God.” I think I know what you’re going to say.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 21:45 Exactly right. Gives a few things, but one of the things it says here, “The purpose of this book,” again, this is from the title page towards the middle paragraph, there’s a little dash and it says, “And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ.” And I think a lot of times in Sunday school lessons, we just stop there and put the book down, but the sentence isn’t over yet.

  22:09 The Book of Mormon was not written just to convince people that Jesus is the Christ. It’s that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God. This is the central message of the Book of Mormon. God Himself cares enough about you to come down to earth to redeem you. That’s the condescension of God. That’s the amazing message of the Book of Mormon.

John Bytheway: 22:34 After this part in Mosiah 13, Mosiah 14, here’s this suffering servant, that’s Christ. And in verse one of Mosiah 15, “I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people.” So this God is the Redeemer. That’s what you’re saying.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 22:51 Yeah. It’s not just Christ is the suffering servant. It’s Jehovah is the suffering servant. That’s God. That’s the amazing part of this. That’s what all the prophets have been testifying.

  23:03 And now he goes on in verse two and says, “And because He dwelleth in the flesh, He shall be called the Son of God.” So the Son of God, as far as Abinadi is concerned, is a title for Jehovah because He dwells in the flesh. The Son of God is referring to the fact that He will become human, that He is not going to remain a divine personage. But he says, “He dwelleth in the flesh, He should be called the Son of God and having subjected the flesh to the will of the father, being the father and the Son.”

  23:36 So this phrase that Jesus is the father and the Son is not saying that heavenly father and Jesus Christ is the same person, is not a description of two different beings. What it’s saying is that the personage that’s walking around on earth is both divine and human. This is a description of the nature of Christ. It’s one of the things that the Patristic fathers debated for centuries in the early parts of Christianity. What is Christ? He’s fully God and fully human. Abinadi sums this up in three verses.

  24:10 Now remember, just side note, Zeezrom most likely is a member of the order of Nehor, which means he believes everyone’s going to be saved so this entire concept is something he probably doesn’t believe. You see in verse 38, Zeezrom changes tactics and goes back to, “Now Zeezrom saith again unto him, ‘Is the son of God the very eternal father?'”

  24:33 Now, I think if you asked most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints what’s the correct answer to this question, they would all say, “No. The first vision clearly shows that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, two different people. I served my mission. I know what the answer to this is.” But I think we’re surprised by what Amulek says. He says, “Yea. He is the very eternal father.” It goes on and says, “He’s the very eternal father of heaven and of earth.” And I’ve heard some people try to start to finesse that and say that like Amulek is playing word games. Amulek is trying to dance in some sort of fine line or something with Zeezrom. But yeah, Jesus is the eternal father of heaven and earth. He is the father of the covenant.

  25:17 For me last week we studied King Benjamin in Mosiah where he talks about taking upon you this new name and entering into this covenant, and the name you’re taking upon you is the name of Christ, that Christ is your father. You are the children of Christ because you’ve taken upon you these names. He’s the father of the covenant. He’s the father, the creator of the world.

  25:37 Again, from a Nephite point of view, Jehovah is the eternal father and I think this is an important distinction. What’s going to happen later in the Book of Mormon, again spoiler alert, is in 3 Nephi when Jesus shows up, He introduces Himself as we saw as the God of Israel. But in chapter 12, He’s going to tell the people to not pray to Him anymore, but to pray to heavenly father. And we just read that like, “Well, of course, that’s a given.”

  26:05 But this for them, I think is a paradigm shift that shows the truth of the Book of Mormon, it shows how this is an ancient people who were living under a different dispensation. This is not a modern creation of Joseph Smith, who certainly would’ve put in more Trinitarian theology. And this is an ancient text reflecting this ancient understanding of who God is and who Jehovah is and the relationship that humanity has with Jehovah.

Hank Smith: 26:31 Yeah, we’ve seen that with Nephi’s dream and again, with the angel, with King Benjamin, there’s no mention of God, the father, as in heavenly father. Their mention is God Himself shall come to earth. Same with Abinadi, God Himself. So this is in their mind, Jehovah, He’s the God and He’s coming here.

John Bytheway: 26:52 Could you shed some light on verse 44, Alma 11? He starts talking very specifically about resurrection and then at the top of page 237, “Be arraigned before the bar of Christ, the Son and God, the father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one eternal God.” So that sounds really Trinitarian.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 27:12 Excellent point. And normally, I think before I really thought through this, my answer to my students always was, “They’re one in purpose. Let’s move on.” While clearly Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in purpose, that is obviously a true doctrine, I don’t think that is necessarily what Amulek had in mind here. I think that what we see here are three separate titles again for Jesus. We learned from the Gospel of John that the father judges no man, but has given all judgment to the Son. It’s my understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ that He is uniquely qualified to be our judge because He has suffered all of our sins and transgressions and knows us better because of His empathy, His actual earthly experience on this earth. The reason God Himself had to come to Earth was so that he could judge us because, otherwise, the judgment could never be just. He would never know fully our experiences and whether our repentance was sincere.

  28:16 Knowing that we’ll be judged by Christ, we’ve already pointed out that the Son of God is a title for the human nature of Jesus and God, the Father. Now, we’ve already pointed out in verse 39 that Amulek said that the Son of God is the very eternal father. This isn’t just a human being that’s going to judge us. It is Jehovah, a person with divine knowledge and with eternal experience.

  28:43 I, again, think this is a reference to Jesus because at the time that this was written, 82 years BC, Jehovah was a personage of spirit. My understanding is that these are three different descriptions of Jesus. He is Christ, the Son. He is the father of heaven and earth, and He is that Holy Spirit with whom all the prophets up to this point of time have interacted with. So that’s who will judge us, that person.

Hank Smith: 29:09 And it seems in this verse that Amulek’s bringing up is he’s not so concerned about how we see the godhead here, but the judgment that is coming.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 29:18 That’s a great transition because that’s going to be really Zeezrom’s question and problem. Because remember, Zeezrom most likely, like many of the people of Ammonihah, is a member of the Nehors, which are people that think everyone is going to be saved. God created all people, God will redeem all people, all people will have eternal life. So the idea that people will resurrect and be judged for their sins is, “Wait, what? Wait, wait. Say again? Wait, that changes everything. I was told we’d all have eternal life.”

  29:50 This brings us into chapter 12. First of all, there’s like a first-person transition, if we want to keep kind of following that. If we look at verse 46

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 30:00 Chapter 11 says, “Now, when Amulek had finished these words, the people began again to be astonished, and also as Zeezrom began to tremble, and thus ended the words of Amulek or this is all that I have written.” I think the I here is probably Alma. We’ve had some quotes from the record, and now we get, “Now Alma seeing the words of Amulek,” so this is obviously Mormon now coming back in and summarizing, so we have this sort of transition, which again, probably helps explain in the original Book of Mormon the fact that chapter 12 is a different block of text from 10 and 11. Remember, chapter eight was one block. Chapter nine was one block, which was Alma by himself. Ten and eleven, which was Alma mixed with Mormon commentary, and now we have chapter 12 as a separate transition block.

  30:46 Here, I want to talk about the plan of redemption, which really began back in chapter 11, verse 40 to 46. But before we do, we’ve got to set this up a little bit. I’m really excited. Sorry, I’m going to jump out of my seat because I think we need to set some understandings. One of my favorite study helps, non-scripture study helps for understanding scriptures is the 1828 Webster Dictionary. When I was a student at BYU, I had Marcus Martins as a professor who wound up becoming my colleague at BYU Hawaii. We actually worked together for many years there, but he told us in class, I remember when I was a student, he said, “The most important study aid you can get is a dictionary.” So that year for my birthday, I asked my mom to buy me a dictionary because they’re like a hundred bucks. If you buy a big, real dictionary, they’re pretty thick. Nowadays, they’re all free online so you don’t have to pay anything.

  31:39 The problem with a dictionary is words change over time, so the modern dictionary my mom bought me was great, but it gave me modern definitions of words. Joseph Smith translated this book into English in 1830. The fact that you can for free get a dictionary from 1828, roughly the same time Joseph Smith translated this book, gives us an idea of what these words meant to him. So as we’re talking about the plan of redemption and that Christ is coming to redeem his people, I think the first important thing to do is look up the word redeem in 1828 and see what this would’ve meant to Joseph Smith. You just Google 1828 Webster Dictionary. John, are you turning around? Do you have this on the shelf, the 1828 Webster Dictionary printed out?

Hank Smith: 32:24 He has an original.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 32:27 He was alive back then? I didn’t-

Hank Smith: 32:28 Yeah, yeah.

John Bytheway: 32:28 I knew Noah Webster. I was friends with Noah Webster. I have the Book of Mormon reference companion and it has an appendix in the back of 1828 Webster. I could look it up. Okay, so redeem, the number one definition. We should tell people, what’s the website? WebstersDictionary1828.com. It says, redeem, number one – to purchase back, to ransom, to liberate or rescue from captivity or bondage, or from any obligation or liability to suffer or to be forfeited by paying an equivalent. As to redeem prisoners or captured goods, to redeem a pledge. Number two, to repurchase what has been sold, to regain possession of a thing alienated by repaying the value of it to the possessor.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 33:23 One way to think about this is like if you went to a pawn shop and you drop something off, you get a little ticket, and then you come back and you can redeem the ticket if you give them the right amount of money and you get that object back. This is one idea of redemption, but probably the more common one is this idea that it said in definition one, to purchase back, to ransom, to liberate or rescue from captivity. That in the ancient world, it was common when war was taking place to capture prisoners of war and then they would become slaves to the new owners. They would become subject to the new people and their slaves, but they could be bought back. If you paid the owner the correct price, you could purchase back those people. So the idea of redeeming is the idea that you had someone or something of value that has become slave to something else, and then the redeemer comes and purchases them back and gives them their value, and this is important in understanding our idea of the plan of redemption.

  34:27 And what Alma’s going to lay out is that because of the fall of Adam, all people have become lost and fallen. We’ve seen that phrase a few times already, that because of the fall of Adam, all people have become captive to the devil. In 2nd Nephi, chapter nine, verse 10, it talks about if you weren’t resurrected, if you were stuck down there, you’d become subject to that devil and you become their property. But what Christ has done through the plan of redemption is he has redeemed mankind from the Fall. He has brought them back from that fallen state.

John Bytheway: 35:04 I, for fun doing some research, found that plan of salvation is the phrase used I think three times in the Book of Mormon, but plan of redemption is used 15 times. By far, it’s the most common way to describe the plan of salvation in the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 35:20 How many times is that found here in Alma? Do you know?

John Bytheway: 35:23 Oh, it’s exactly what I tell my class. I say notice who used the phrase. It is the sons of Mosiah and Alma use it most of the time. Gee, why would that be? Because they were knocked flat by an angel and they needed to be redeemed. I like the fact that the word redeemer is in plan of redemption. I mean, Savior is in salvation but it’s Spanish, Salvador. What are the different names for the plan in the Book of Mormon? Plan of salvation three times, in Jarom 1 and 2, Alma 24:14, Alma 42:5. Plan of redemption, 15 times, Jacob 6:8, Alma 12:25. Here’s this chapter, Alma 12. Alma 12:26, Alma 12:30, Alma 12:32 and Alma 12:33.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 36:14 So that was five just in this chapter?

John Bytheway: 36:16 Yeah. Then Alma 17:16, so here’s Ammon. Alma 18:39, Alma 22:13, that’s Aaron. Alma 29:2, Alma 34:16 to 31, that’s end-like, isn’t it? Alma 39:18, Alma to his son, Corianton. Alma 42:11 and 13. So that’s all 15 references to plan of redemption, and notice, except for Jacob, they’re all Alma and the sons of Mosiah. That’s pretty cool. And then there’s also merciful planet, the great creator, great and eternal plan of deliverance from death, plan of restoration, great plan of happiness and plan of mercy. I’m just glad that there isn’t one that says plan of punishment or plan of condemnation or plan of judgment, because that’s how we think.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 37:07 The great plan of you stink. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 37:08 Yeah. They’re all really nice words. We’re going to be redeemed, we’re going to be saved, that we’re going to have mercy, we’re going to have happiness.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 37:16 That’s a great point. Before we dive into Alma’s interpretation of the plan of redemption, I’d love to look at Samuel the Lamanite, because this is my favorite, and probably for me, what has influenced my understanding of this plan more than anything else. And it’s in Helaman chapter 14. I’m looking at Samuel the Lamanite prophesying about the death of Jesus Christ in Helaman chapter 14, verse 15 through 19,

John Bytheway: 37:45 Helaman 14:15. “For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come. Yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby, men may be brought into the presence of the Lord.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 38:02 Notice the important part about the resurrection is that it’s so that men may be brought into the presence of the Lord. Let’s keep reading verse 16, as he expounds on that.

John Bytheway: 38:12 “Yea behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection and redeemeth all mankind from the first death.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 38:19 Okay, and we’re talking about the plan of redemption, a redeemer, and what we see here is a universal redemption. “This death bringeth to pass the resurrection and redeemeth all mankind.” No limitations placed on this, but what does it redeem them from? The first death. Now, I think if you asked your students, what’s the first death? I know as a missionary, this is what I taught. The first death is physical death. The first death is the fact that my body’s going to die, and that’s what the resurrection overcomes for me. The resurrection overcomes physical death, but that is not, according to Samuel the Lamanite, what the first death is. So do you want to keep reading now and bring that in?

John Bytheway: 38:59 “…and redeemeth all mankind from the first death, that spiritual death.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 39:04 A little shocker there. I didn’t see that coming. Yeah, the first death is actually a spiritual death. The first problem humanity faces is the fact that as Alma talks about and Amulek talked about, all mankind by the fall of Adam have become lost and fallen and are cut off from the presence of God. Adam is going to partake of the fruit, and the day he eats thereof, he shall surely die, which means that he becomes mortal, and eventually, he’ll suffer physical death. But what also happens that day, which we maybe don’t think about that much, is Adam has to leave the Garden of Eden after he partakes the forbidden fruit.

  39:43 In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, they walked and talked with God. They were in the presence of God. Once he partakes the physical fruit, Adam leaves the presence of God and for the rest of his mortal life, he interacts with God through angels, through messengers, through sacrifice. He doesn’t directly enter the presence of God again. He’s become a fallen man in that sense. He’s left His presence, cut off from the presence of the Lord. Through birth, everyone who’s born immediately is cut off from the presence of God. You don’t live in God’s presence on this earth, and that is the first obstacle that needs to be overcome. What the next verse is going to explain is how the resurrection overcomes the fall of Adam.

John Bytheway: 40:32 Verse 17?

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 40:34 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 40:35 So Samuel the Lamanite continues, “But behold the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 40:46 And what we see here is a universal redemption. All mankind will be redeemed. Now, we need to go back and think about Nehor. Remember, he was a false teacher and he taught three things, well, in addition to people being popular and stuff. But as far as doctrinally, God created all people, God would redeem all people, and all people would have eternal life. And a fun game to play is what’s the truth and what’s a lie? The way the devil and the Antichrist work is they give some truth and they give some lie. God created all people. Well, okay, yeah, that’s true. Nehor, I’m with you. God redeemed all people. I think sometimes as Latter-day saints, we think that’s the lie. But according to Samuel the Lamanite, that’s not a lie. It seems to me that a close reading of Samuel the Lamanite suggests that the first death is a spiritual death, and the second death is a spiritual death.

  41:39 The first death, maybe better explained, is a physical and spiritual death caused by the fall of Adam. So this is something that happens to you through no fault of your own. You never did anything wrong to be born. You’re cut off from God’s presence because of Adam, and because your agency is not exercised during this fall, you’re redeemed from that fall without any effort or exercise of your own. You will return to God’s presence. All humanity will return to God’s presence through the saving, redeeming grace of Jesus Christ.

  42:13 Now, when you return to God’s presence, you’ll now be judged according to your actions. That’s what Heavenly Father wants, is to hold people accountable for their actions, and the action which we need to do is believe in Jesus Christ and repent. Because it’s a given, you’re not going to be perfect. Those who repent, they will not suffer the second death, but if you have a hard heart, if you refuse to repent, then you are forced to leave the presence of God. You’re cut off again from His presence, and that is the second spiritual death.

  42:44 That’s a great summary of the plan of redemption in just a few verses. I really like that. It really changed the way I thought about it. As a missionary, I think I used to dismiss too quickly resurrection, kind of like, “Yeah, there’s physical death, but whatever. That’s all taken care of. Don’t worry about it.” But here, it says that the resurrection brings everyone back to the presence of God. And also in verse 18, “It bringeth to pass the condition of repentance.” The it in that sentence refers to resurrection. I don’t know if we think about that very much.

  43:19 If you weren’t brought back into the presence of God, if you didn’t know that was a reality or didn’t believe that was a reality, I don’t think you would ever have the hope or the faith necessary to repent. Why bother? You’d be like the Nehors. Well, you wouldn’t believe in repentance because there’d be no judgment. There’d be no need. But the fact that you understand that you’re going gives the resurrection of Christ. The fact that we’re going back to God’s presence gives us the faith, the hope, the ability through the atonement of Jesus Christ and the mercy it provides.

  43:49 I want to take that understanding of the plan of redemption, making sure we understand, and now go back and read Amulek and Alma. Because for example, if we go back to Alma chapter 11 really quick, verse 40, this is talking about this eternal father who would be the redeemer, how he’s coming to earth. Can someone read that? Alma, 11:40.

John Bytheway: 44:13 Yeah, this is great. So this is back to Amulek, talking to Zeezrom and testifying of Christ. “And He shall come into the world to redeem His people, and He shall take upon Him the transgressions of those who believe on His name. And these are they that shall have eternal life and salvation cometh to none else.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 44:36 As we think about Samuel the Lamanite, and he talked about this universal redemption – all people will redeemed from the fall of Adam – and now we look here at Amulek, it almost seems as if he’s suggesting that the redemption is only for his people. Now, one way to understand that is, well, He’s the father of Heaven and Earth. Everyone’s His people. But it also goes on and says, “He takes upon the transgressions of those who believe on His name.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 45:00 There’s one way to understand Amulek to think he’s saying that the redemption of Christ is limited to a few people. Do you understand the distinction there? Who is being redeemed? Is it all people? Samuel the Lamanite pointed out, or is it just those who believe on his name? What is the power of the redemption? This is where the point I tried to make earlier in this podcast that Amulek is a new member and maybe doesn’t have all the right language to explain things may be in play here, I wonder. Because when Alma does stand up, he does say in Alma chapter 12 verse one, he does say that he opened his mouth, Alma, and began to speak unto him and to establish the words of Amulek and to explain things beyond or to unfold the scriptures beyond that which Amulek had done.

  45:49 So I’m trying to clarify and unfold a little bit more about Amulek. But I also think the key to understanding Amulek is verse 41 because he’s talking about these people who will not be redeemed and he says, “Therefore, the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except to be the loosing of the bands of death.” And I think it’s that phrase, “As though,” that’s important in understanding those people were redeemed from the fall of Adam, but because they chose to remain in their sins and they chose to rebel, it’s as though there was no redemption made.

Hank Smith: 46:29 Dan, I love this. I’ve never seen Alma 12 as a refutation of the doctrine of Nehor.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 46:36 Yeah. I think it’s most clear in chapter 12, verse eight where you get Zeezrom’s panic question because at this point, Zeezrom, he’s starting to believe that these people are being led by the spirit because they seem to know how to answer his questions and he’s like, “Wait, wait, what does this thing that…” He said to Alma, “What does this mean, which Amulek has spoken concerning the resurrection of the dead that all shall rise from the dead, both the just and the unjust, and are brought to stand before God to be judged according to their works?” Like, “Wait, what?”

Hank Smith: 47:06 And it’s great. By the end of Alma 12, he’s brought them all the way to the Savior and repentance. He’s been able to refute Nehor and said, “This is why you need the Son.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 47:21 Yeah. There’s a shift in verse 20-21 where a different person asks a different question.

Hank Smith: 47:26 Yeah. He jumps in for Zeezrom, right? He’s like, “Whoa.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 47:29 Yeah. You look like you’re getting weak here and you’re questioning. You look like you’re starting to buy this nonsense. Let’s ask another tough one. This is Antionah. As far as I can tell, this is the only mention of this person in the entire Book of Mormon, so I don’t know much about him, other than he was a chief ruler. It doesn’t say a chief priest or a lawyer, which is interesting. They were ruled by judges, so maybe this makes him a judge. I don’t know.

  47:51 There was one Antionah who was the chief ruler among them, and he came forth and said to them, “What does this that thou hast said that man should rise from the dead and be changed from the mortal to an immortal state, the soul can never die? What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.”

Hank Smith: 48:18 He’s using the scriptures to try to get them to like, “No, no, no, you’re not right. Look, I know what the scriptures say.”

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 48:24 That’s exactly right. And Alma’s response is just great. He goes, Well, that’s the thing I just wanted to explain. Thanks for asking. Yeah. He clarifies in verse 22 that Adam’s death did not only bring about a physical death but also transformed all humanity into a lost and fallen people. In other words, a spiritual death. We see that Alma’s right in line with Samuel the Lamanite. It’s not just a physical death we’re trying to overcome, it’s a spiritual separation. In verse 25, we get this idea that resurrection is an essential part of the plan of redemption. Yeah. You want to read that for us, verse 25?

Hank Smith: 49:00 Now, if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead; but there was a plan of redemption laid, which shall bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, of which has been spoken.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 49:15 So again, trying to help us think a little bit about the importance of resurrection and Christ’s overcoming death. President Nelson warned us against talking about the atonement of Jesus Christ by just simplifying it to the Atonement, so maybe I shouldn’t just be saying resurrection like it’s some independent thing of Jesus. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is part of the atonement of Jesus Christ. If atonement means to put us at one with God, it is the resurrection of Jesus Christ which puts us back into God’s presence. It is an essential part. I remember one time a stake president friend of mine was preparing an Easter message for the stake presidency and he was looking at the wording and he asked my opinion, I just happened to be around him.

  49:57 It wasn’t like I was some expert or something, and he said, ” This time of Easter, we think about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his Atonement.” And I thought, “I’m not sure that’s the way the Book of Mormon sees it.” The resurrection is not a separate appendage, it’s an essential part of putting us at one with God. If it had not been for the plan of redemption, there could be no resurrection. The plan of redemption is about resurrection, remembering that resurrection is not just overcoming physical death, resurrection is overcoming the fall of Adam. All of those effects have been reversed by the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 50:35 This is what happens when you know your stuff. Look at Alma, and Amulek even, this, “Well, I’m going to fire off questions.” And if you’re well versed, if you’ve done your research, if you’ve done your study, he’s able to lay out an argument for why the doctrine of Nehor is false and why this plan of salvation is going to work.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 50:56 And like you said, why Christ, who is the eternal God, is essential for it. Alma is going to bring up, it’s not in this chapter, but back in chapter seven when he was teaching a few chapters earlier, he teaches about how, through Christ’s life experiences, he learns how to succor his people. And this is another essential part of the atonement of Jesus Christ that, yeah, a distant God knows all things, the Spirit knows everything, but through his experience, Jesus Christ gains an understanding of us through taking upon him the sins of his people, their infirmities, their sickness. It gives him this ability to know them and to judge them.

John Bytheway: 51:41 I’ve loved Alma 12:32 because it’s something that President Boyd K. Packer pointed out once, the sequence, “Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption.” Some people might look at the gospel as a list of do’s and don’ts, the long list of rules and do’s and don’ts, but God, He presents the plan of happiness first and then the do’s and don’ts make sense. Well, you always start with the plan first as it says, and that’s the sequence in Alma 12:32. He gave them commandments, but that was after he made known unto them the plan of redemption. What do we have to offer for the church? A bunch of rules? No, we have the plan of happiness and the commandments come later in the context of the plan of happiness. Then they make sense.

Hank Smith: 52:32 Yeah. If you understand the plan, the commandments come easy.

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 52:35 Let’s look at 33 and 34, like you said, he’s letting people know this plan and then it says, “But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, this being the plan of redemption, which was laid.” The idea is, yes, there’s a God, which is Jehovah for these Nephites, but salvation’s not going to come from far away, that Jehovah will become the Son. We already looked at how Amulek pointed out how the Son of God is a title for him, that he’s going to become human. This being the plan of redemption which was laid saying, “If you will repent and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy on you through my Only Begotten Son.” Therefore, God cannot lie. That’s an essential part that Alma believes in the justice of God. God said that, “Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.”

  53:32 When you talk about this list of do’s and don’ts and stuff of the gospel, I just think all of that’s bad atonement theory. The plan of redemption has been laid out so simply that what is asked for us is just to repent, just to try, just to keep going. It’s not an overwhelming list of things to do. God has said, If you will repent, you will have a claim on mercy. Therefore, all you got to do is repent. It’s not a complicated system. You’ve already been redeemed from the fall of Adam. You will go back to God’s presence. It’s not a question. Do you want to stay there? Great. Daily repentance. The prophet has told us what to do. As you walk this covenant path, do the best you can. Keep on that path, keep repenting. Let things go to the wayside that get in the way of that. That’s a really powerful plan.

Hank Smith: 54:27 He finishes that way. Seeing we know these things and they are true, let us repent. Let us repent and not harden our hearts and we’ll enter into the rest of God. It seems that Alma has gotten to the simplicity on the far side of complexity where he’s going to walk us through something that is doctrinally deep. On the far side of it, he says, “Now, isn’t it simple?” Let’s say I’m a listener, I’m at home, I’ve gone through the complexity of these chapters, especially chapters 11 and 12, what’s my takeaway here?

Dr. Daniel Sharp: 55:01 The way I feel the Spirit most strongly in my own personal life, in my own scripture study is when I come to the scriptures with a question and when I study and pour over the doctrine. The reason I love the Book of Mormon is because of the way it testifies of Jesus Christ and his Atonement. What I tried to show here a little bit in this podcast is that the theology of the Book of Mormon is so deep. I teach a class on the history of Christian theology at Brigham Young University-Hawaii. It’s not a religious education class, it’s a history class. So we just look at how theology has developed over time. We use a textbook and so forth. But I love to just show my students how these debates go on for years and years and then you have Abinadi show up and give this explanation of the dual nature of Christ, or you have these other theologies about the plan of redemption. I just love the theology of the Book of Mormon.

  55:56 It’s a testimony to me that this is a real ancient history of an ancient people and a real book, and I could study it forever. My PhD is in New Testament studies, but I have learned more about the Atonement of Jesus Christ from the Book of Mormon than any other book. The simple takeaway I would hope people would take is the idea that Jesus Christ has redeemed us from the fall of Adam, and because of that, we will all stand before God to be accountable for our actions. The justice of God is not trying to punish us for sin. The justice of God is trying to hold us accountable for what we’ve done. And if what we have done is repent, then the justice of God demands that we be given forgiveness because God has said that is how it will be. That’s my testimony.

Hank Smith: 56:52 That is wonderful.

John Bytheway: 56:54 Beautifully said. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 56:55 We worship God with our heart, mind. The Book of Mormon is stretching our minds. It’s a form of worship when we do that. Oh, it’s fantastic. Dan, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for taking your time to walk us through these chapters.

John Bytheway: 57:10 Thanks for listening.

Hank Smith: 57:11 Yeah. We loved having you. With that, we want to thank Dr. Daniel Sharp for being with us today. What a treat. This is mind-expanding stuff. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to continue with Alma and Amulek in the city of Ammonihah on followHIM. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.C-O. On our website, you’ll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

  57:55 Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else. If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 58:32 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.