John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Nate Williams: Mosiah chapter 29 through Alma 4.

Dr. Nate Williams: 00:07 The next question I have, how is the Order of Nehor different from the Holy Order of God? It really looks like in chapter one, Mormon wants to make sure you parallel or juxtapose the profession of Nehor as opposed to what’s going on in the church or the Holy Order of God.

  00:29 One of the first things I observe is that the profession of Nehor is prideful. It’s motivated by riches. Mormon wants the reader to understand that those in the Holy order of God are humble and they impart the word of God one with another, and he even says, “Without money and without price.”

  00:47 A second comparison may be to see between those two, a stark difference, those following Nehor’s plan, his beliefs, they persecute believers. But we read in verse 21 that those in the Order of God have a very strict law in the church forbidding that anyone should arise and persecute those that do not belong to the church, or even among themselves.

  01:13 Sadly, though, the ideal doesn’t always hold up in the church. We see in those chapters there is still sometimes some contentions and persecutions even among the people of God’s church; which is a reality we all deal with where there are firm clear laws, but the challenge is that, do the people of God always measure up to the ideal?

  01:33 A third parallel I saw is that the people of Nehor are committed to satisfying the desires of the natural man, or in the words of Mormon, indulging themselves in all manner of wickedness, while those who stand fast in the faith of God, we’re told in verse 25, are immovable in keeping the commandments of God, and bear with patience the persecutions heaped upon them.

  01:57 A couple more parallels; the Order of Nehor creates a culture interested in clothing themselves in costly apparel, which is contrary to that of those in the church of God who are characterized by not wearing costly apparel, in verse 27, he clearly wants to let you know that, and that they’re neat and comely.

  02:18 A final parallel; the Order of Nehor does not believe in the repentance of sins. That’s not something we’re going to read directly in here, but I love how Hank read between the lines of those verses. But later on, in Alma 15:15, we’ll read about Ammonihah and others who say they’re after this order and they clearly do not believe in the repentance of sins; contrasted by those who abide in the holy order. They believe that salvation comes to those who exercise faith in Christ unto repentance.

  02:52 Ironically, the Holy Order of God and the steadiness in that order, verse 29, creates an abundant world filled with riches; maybe a temptation for the saints of God to remove their focus from him and from others to the abundant blessings and making that their God. It seems to be kind of a critical challenge for those in the Holy Order of God to stay there by keeping their focus still on Christ and an imparting of their substance.

  03:26 So very interesting conclusion to chapter one as the Mormon draws parallels to clearly let you know we have really a rival church, an order that is very unhealthy and destructive to this people.

Hank Smith: 03:41 It’s a great contrast, isn’t it, Nate, to go, here’s Nehor’s way, here’s the Lord’s way. Let’s put them in the same chapter side by side so you can really see the differences.

John Bytheway: 03:51 I love what you did: the profession of Nehor and the Holy Order of God. Or you could say priestcraft versus priesthood.

Hank Smith: 04:00 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 04:01 That’s a great way to look at that chapter. I love it.

Hank Smith: 04:04 And I’ve always thought, Nate, what you said in verse 30, the pride cycle, they broke it. They broke the pride cycle. You would think, “Oh, they’re becoming prosperous. I know what’s going to happen next. They’re going to become prideful.” And yet they don’t. They don’t send away the naked, the hungry, the sick. They don’t set their hearts on riches, even though they have them. It’s easy to give away something that your heart isn’t set on.

Dr. Nate Williams: 04:29 It’s amazing, a lot sad, that in a few years things could change so differently from this group that seems like they’re really succeeding, they’re really doing well. They’re really staying on the humble cycle, the top of it, and truly being liberal to all, no respecter of persons and …

Hank Smith: 04:50 It falls apart on them. Yep.

Dr. Nate Williams: 04:52 I’m really curious on this question. How do I read the Amlici narrative, chapter two through three, differently if I connect it with Nehor?

  05:03 It appears they were originally part of one chapter. The author Mormon wanted us to lump them all together, even though we might look at them as three different chapters. And I wondered, if I gave a paragraph summary of the Amlici narrative, and then I’d love to hear any thoughts you might have about how’s that different viewing this work of Amlici as an extension of Nehor versus its own separate little isolated incident?

  05:32 It begins in chapter two with contention in the land because of a very cunning man named Amlici, and we’re told he’s part of the Order of Nehor; clearly wants to make us sure that the thoughts and ideas that are driving him come from Nehor.

  05:48 This man’s very popular. He had much people following him and had obtained great power by these numbers among this Zarahemla community. The community of followers wanted him to become a king, which is not only a rejection of Alma, rejection of Alma as a high priest and his teachings, but a rejection of Alma and Mosiah and the transition of the reign of the judges. And it looks like, for some reason in their political policy, they have to have a vote, even though it was quite alarming to many people in the church that Amlici could arise to have such great power, because the people in the church were a little bit extra worried because he had an intention to destroy the church of God.

  06:36 The vote was taken. I’m sure all the people in the church of God were really happy that Amlici’s people did not obtain the victory. But Amlici’s people, driven by anger, a degree of rebellion, still go ahead and consecrate him as a king, a rival political power.

  06:54 Now not just a rival religion, we’ve got a rival political power with Amlici. And this rebellious political revival, now known as Amlicites, prepares and leads them into a civil war. They start to then grow an army. And both groups prepare for conflict and eventually engage in war. Both sides are noted for their great strength. Amlicites flee after they start becoming beaten, destroyed, losing in this battle. And then we get numbers. The 12,500 and something Amlicites were slain and 6,500 Nephites were slain.

  07:31 They’re hunting and chasing them into the wilderness, but eventually they get away. And they send some spies after them, some spies to see what’s really going on with this group that’s wreaking such havoc among our people. And the spies come back with an alarming report: “These people have united with the Lamanites and they’re attacking our brethren in lands north above the land of Zarahemla, and we have got to come to their rescue.”

  08:01 Alma and the Nephite armies go to the area, engage in another battle of this numerous army of Amlicites and Lamanites. Eventually a one-on-one combat ensues between Alma and Amlici in which Amlici is slain. Eventually, the Lamanite king briefly engages, but then retreats from Alma into the wilderness with his people, and lots and lots of people die.

Hank Smith: 08:29 Poor Alma the Younger. Man. He gets these two jobs and he’s attacked in both his jobs. One is the high priest, other is the chief judge.

  08:40 I noticed something as you were explaining this. Never thought about this before, Nate, but we’ve got a micro look at Nehor, how it looks coming from a person, and then we’ve got a macro look at the Order of Nehor, what it looks like coming from a group of people. It’s very similar.

Dr. Nate Williams: 08:57 Oh, interesting. Yeah. The individual moved into … Yeah.

Hank Smith: 09:01 A group of people.

  09:03 In fact, Mormon says they met in the valley of Gideon, almost like it’s and Gideon again, right? Going …

Dr. Nate Williams: 09:10 I know. Isn’t that interesting?

John Bytheway: 09:14 That’s a great insight. It’s the same thing, but now it’s a group. And like Nehor, there’s no compromise here. The voice of the people said, “No, thanks”, and Amlici said, “Okay, well, then I’ll force you.”

  09:25 I don’t know a whole lot about ancient warfare, but I know that in modern warfare, the leaders, the king, they stay back and they send the privates and the corporals out in the front. And here is Alma, fought with Amlici with the sword face-to-face, in verse 29. And I think that the kings went to battle at the front of their armies perhaps instead of in the rearward.

  09:52 I don’t know if that’s true or not, but that’s sure what it sounds like here.

Hank Smith: 09:57 I love in both of these that Alma is taking this on. I think of the prophet today who does not shrink back from teaching the truth and meeting it head-on.

Dr. Nate Williams: 10:11 Yeah.

  10:12 If I was to now interject the description of a person, I’d be curious who you would think about from our reading today and study. Who might this be describing?

  10:22 “A wicked man, an idolatrous man, a man of many words who did speak much flattery to the people. Therefore, he led many people to do after the manner of his iniquities. He became a great hinderment to the prosperity of the church, stealing away the hearts of people, causing much dissension among the people, and giving a chance for the enemy of God to exercise his power over them, going about to destroy the church of God.”

  10:58 I think we got a couple of really strong possibilities from today’s reading.

Hank Smith: 11:02 It’s Alma himself, right? Alma the Younger himself.

John Bytheway: 11:07 Crazy to think about that it looks like his experience was only a few years ago, if I’m doing the math right. The Book of Alma might be this incredible record of Alma dealing with even some of the past challenges that he may have been a part of himself at one time, but no longer is; maybe reminding us that you can change through Christ and you don’t have to be a Nehor forever. You don’t have to be a Corianton. You don’t have to be a Zoramite or an Amalekiah; another person who was called a wicked man in the scriptures, Alma and Amalekiah.

  11:50 We sometimes go into a new chapter and quickly forget that this was Alma’s world a few years earlier. And I think not only does Amlici linked with Nehor change it, but maybe also Alma linked with Nehor and Amlici, but no longer linked. Now he’s in a completely different setting in his mind and heart because he cried out for the atoning blood of Christ to be applied to his soul and got deliverance.

  12:20 So it’s maybe showing quite a contrasting Alma that no longer is condemned at all, but is still dealing maybe with consequences that … It seemed like it’s, at least for me, easy to oversimplify that everybody in Zarahemla is all on board with the new government, with the new leadership, but it looks like it’s not quite as simple as that.

Hank Smith: 12:44 I love what you’re doing getting in Alma’s life here. He’s not a black and white figure who was once bad, now he’s good. His life is much more complicated than that: “I was wicked once, now I’m good and everything’s fine.” These are some complex issues. And you’re right. What if he is facing some of the very things he caused?

Dr. Nate Williams: 13:07 Yeah. Maybe seeking to make things right. Or we read in the Book of Mosiah, how they went about zealously striving to repair all they had done wrong. What if the Book of Alma is a lot about zealously striving to repair anything that might still be lingering on from things I taught, things I did, things I was a part of?

  13:29 And I don’t know. I don’t know to what degree Alma and Nehor … But by that description in the Book of Alma, it looks like they could have been at least cousins spiritually until there was a great change.

Hank Smith: 13:42 Our friend Joe Spencer, he pointed out to me that Alma 1 starts with Nehor, Alma 2 and 3 goes into the Amlicites, and then he says it starts over again with Korihor in Alma 30, a single chapter about Antichrist, that then moves into the Zoramites. So almost as if Mormon is paralleling these stories.

Dr. Nate Williams: 14:08 Yeah. The intentionality, so amazing.

  14:11 And I’d like to maybe, a little later, point out a couple of other of those parallels. One of them being with the prayer of Alma in deliverance before he engages with Amlici, and the prayer of Alma before he engages in deliverance among the Zoramites. That Mormon seems to want to give you prayers, one only being a verse long and one being a little longer.

Dr. Nate Williams: 14:36 But maybe in a minute we can bring that additional parallel up.

  14:39 I love that. It just invites me to take every word and phrase more seriously when you see some of these parallel accounts and intentional repetitious things taking place in the book.

  14:51 Question number seven, we learned that in Alma chapter three, as this first chapter comes to a close, that Mormon wants to give a little excerpt about the curses of God that come upon people. And this is a very difficult and challenging part for people even today, the modern reader, to try to understand in an edifying way, things about God’s curses. So the question I was drawn to think about in a broad, simple way, what do I learn about the curses of God from the Amlicite experience?

  15:27 There’s a few things that maybe we can take away that might still be difficult, but still possibly edifying. And then realize there might be many things that we still don’t know about Book of Mormon history and curses, that we’re going to have to be patient with till God gives us more understanding about them and about Himself, and His own dealings.

  15:50 It’s a difficult topic. It’s challenging at once, but it seems like towards the end of Alma 3, we have about a dozen verses where Mormon wants to talk about God’s curses. He begins the thoughts with this, with, “Amlicites who choose to mark themselves…” In verse four, “… with red in their foreheads after the manner of the Lamanites.” That they really want to look differently, outwardly because inwardly, they know they’re on different pages than the Nephi. So they choose to mark themselves with red in their foreheads and they say that it’s after the manner of how the Lamanites choose to mark themselves.

John Bytheway: 16:35 Like verse 19 that says, “Every man that is cursed brings upon himself his own condemnation.” It’s not an arbitrary thing.

Dr. Nate Williams: 16:43 Recently, John, I would be curious to hear what you think about this, I was reading the Elder Christofferson’s conference message on The Sealing Power. He talked about, briefly, the wrath of God. And I don’t know if you could ever substitute wrath for curse of God, but he gave a quick definition and he said, “Wrath, in this context, may be understood as the natural consequence of widespread disobedience to the laws and commandments of God.”

  17:12 And it made me think a little bit about a curse. Could it be the natural consequence of disobedience to a law or a commandment of God, versus what Hank was saying about some arbitrary pattern that God chooses to like or dislike certain people?

Hank Smith: 17:30 It’s interesting that the Amlicites choose to mark themselves, and then Mormon sees that as the Lord set a mark upon them.

Dr. Nate Williams: 17:40 Well, it’s interesting, in that verse, they do it after the manner of the Lamanites. There’s so much recent scholarship on this that swings that pendulum. The last 100-page article I read out of the Interpreter, somewhere, was strongly suggesting their argument that the Lamanite mark was an intentional physical dark mark put upon individuals who chose to distinguish themselves. And one of their examples that I remember still from the article is when the Nephites have to look for a Lamanite to take the alcohol over to them during the time of war. And they have to look around to find them. It’s not a clear, easy, physical, “Oh, you’re completely of a darker skin nature. You must be a Lamanite.” That was one of many episodes where they were trying to make an argument of a localized, intentional, individual, outward mark that was viewed as a curse of God even though it wasn’t individually or personally placed upon them.

  18:44 To me, one of the things too, that really stands out here, that goes along with what John said on the personal choice nature of curses in God’s plan is verse 14, when Mormon quotes something given to Nephi that we don’t have cited anywhere else in the Book of Mormon. Verse 14, “Thus the word of God is fulfilled for these are the words which he said to Nephi. Behold the Lamanites have I cursed and I will set a mark on them and they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed from this time henceforth and forever. Except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them.” I love that whatever these curses are, they’re conditional. This is not something that’s foreordained or predestined or punishing long-term children of God. These are things that can all be overcome with any kind of generational attitude where someone chooses to repent.

Hank Smith: 19:51 The Amlicites becoming like the Lamanites, the curse being cut off from God because you seek to destroy other people. That choice of, I want to hurt people who are not like me. I want to injure them, I want to kill them, even. That itself is a curse.

Dr. Nate Williams: 20:14 I like how Mormon concludes this whole chapter one, which is in our reading, chapter three, when he says in verse 26 and 27, “And in one year were thousands and tens of thousands of souls sent to the eternal world that they might reap their rewards according to their works. Whether they were good or whether they were bad, to reap eternal happiness or eternal misery according to the spirit which they listed to obey. Whether it be a good spirit or a bad one, for everyone receiveth wages of him whom he listeth to obey. And this is according to the words of the spirit of prophecy. Therefore, let it be according to the truth.”

  21:01 Your choices do matter and your choices do bring consequences. And hopefully we can all be wise because I think all of God’s children, we want to have a happy life filled with blessings and that there is truly a right way to live and be happy.

Hank Smith: 21:18 Everyone chooses a prophet. Sometimes we think, oh, I’m not choosing President Nelson or I’m not choosing the current president of the church, but by not choosing one, you are choosing another. Everyone has a prophet.

Dr. Nate Williams: 21:33 Mm-hmm.

John Bytheway: 21:34 We had an earlier guest, Hank, who said, “We’re all discipled by somebody.” And I thought, “What an interesting idea.” And I remember President Eyring saying, “When we choose to say we are independent of the Lord’s influences, we’re not really independent. We’re choosing another influence.”

  21:53 We can talk, and we do a lot in our dialogue about, this group makes me matter. That group is like this or this group… But our second article of faith is, we’ll be punished for our own sins. Verse 19, “Every man, every individual that is cursed brings upon himself his own condemnation.” And then in verse 27, “Every man…” These are talking about individuals, “Receives wages of him whom he listeth to obey.” I heard a comedian say once, “The wages of sin is death, but after taxes are taken out, it’s just a tired feeling.”

Dr. Nate Williams: 22:36 I’d like to share a quote from Elder Ahmad Corbitt of the Quorum of the Seventy from a series of these essays that he wrote about Race and the Priesthood a few years ago that seemed very relevant and inspiring to me as I tried to wrestle and ponder upon this thought about curses and marks.

  22:55 Elder Corbitt wrote, “We see that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is uniquely able and divinely destined to become the most unifying global organization in the history of the world. Clearly, the Savior’s church and gospel it administers, transcends race, ethnicity, culture. The church exists largely to gather and unify the Father’s children from every nation on the earth as brothers and sisters. Our church is uniquely empowered and destined to achieve worldwide peace, harmony, and unity among all the peoples of the earth through His atonement. Jesus Christ transforms the way we view ourselves and the entire human family. He transforms the way we see the church, its leaders, its gathering and saving mission, its members, and the restored gospel in general.”

  23:53 And then this thought really grabbed me, “The Book of Mormon is the most racially unifying book on earth. Another way of saying that the Book of Mormon gathers scattered Israel is to say that it invites and unites people of all races and ethnicities as brothers and sisters. It unites all people who accept the gospel in a common covenant with God, our eternal Father and Jesus Christ, our eternal Savior. The gathering also unites all the children of Adam and Eve into the common covenant family of Abraham, another microcosm of God’s universal family.

  24:34 All these forms of unity are fully accomplished as individuals, and families receive and keep all the ordinances and covenants of the gospel of Jesus Christ offered by the Lord’s authorized servants. He invites anyone to read the Book of Mormon with an eye toward understanding its role and power as an instruction manual for unifying God’s earthly children of all races and ethnicities. God, Himself, is bringing to pass for the salvation of His children in the last days through the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.”

  25:13 I love that and I believe that.

Hank Smith: 25:15 Elder Corbitt, he’s been on our show before.

Dr. Nate Williams: 25:18 And most importantly, he’s an alumni of the great Ricks College in Rexburg, Idaho.

Hank Smith: 25:24 John told me, Nate, that you played basketball at Rick’s College?

Dr. Nate Williams: 25:29 I did. Yes. I spent way too much time in my life throwing a ball in a dumb hole. All right. This next question maybe takes us a little bit back into our previous chapters, but it’s one that intrigues me before we move on to our last couple of questions in the last chapters. Back to chapters 1 through 3, I was intrigued by how Mormon chooses to use first person quotes, even if they’re brief. The question that I’m asking here is what do we learn about Alma or about that Mormon and the use of Alma’s words from the two times he has Alma directly speak in this one chapter?

  26:16 We get two quotes from Alma. They seem to have significance. And I think part of what got me thinking about this question was a book I’ve been reading recently called The Art of Biblical Narrative by a man named Alter. And in his book, one of the chapters is about biblical dialogue. And he writes this, “The biblical scene suggests that what is significant about a character can be manifest almost entirely in the character’s speech.”

  26:49 Now, I don’t know of any way that Mormon would have been directly impacted to write like biblical authors, but let’s assume and pretend that when he has a character speak, he really wants it to reveal a lot about an idea and maybe even about the person. That’s what they’re suggesting about biblical narrative. He goes on to write, “In any given narrative event, and especially at the beginning of a new story…” Which we’re at, we’re at a new book, we’re at a new story, we’re at a new chapter. “The point at which dialogue first emerges is worthy of special attention, and in most instances, the initial words spoken by a personage will be revelatory concerning that person’s character.”

  27:38 If we could go back quickly and look at two times Alma is allowed to speak in the storytelling of Mormon, and say, “What does he want me to think about Alma? What does he want me to think about this idea?” We’re going through the war with the Amlicites. We get to the point of a critical moment when Alma and Amlici are going face to face in chapter 2:30. “And it came to pass that Alma being a man of God, being exercised with much faith, cried saying…” I guess we could put quotation marks here in our scriptures. “Oh Lord, have mercy and spare my life that I may be an instrument in thy hands to save and preserve this people.” Now, when Alma had said these words, he contended again with Amlici, and he was strengthened insomuch that he slew Amlici with a sword.

  28:35 He could have summarized that. He said he prayed really beautifully, powerfully, but somehow he wanted those words to teach us something about Alma. It may be in a spirit of Elder Rasband, “Words matter a lot. They’re the bedrock of how we connect.”

John Bytheway: 28:52 I’m so glad you pointed this out, because he wants to be an instrument in the hands of God to save and preserve this people. Any reader of the Book of Mormon can say Alma has been an instrument in the hands of God to help them. But yeah, he could have summarized that. “Spare my life so that I can be an instrument,” that’s a window into the character of Alma.

Dr. Nate Williams: 29:15 Yeah. That’s wonderful. It was beautiful. Is it a foreshadowing of the rest of the book? Let’s talk about a man who got his prayer answered, not once, but for the rest of his life he gets to be this ministering instrument of God to bless and preserve people.

John Bytheway: 29:32 Mormon would want to preserve that, and we don’t have quotation marks in the Book of Mormon. There’s a few places where you could insert them and I guess that’s one of them, huh?

Dr. Nate Williams: 29:41 Yeah. I love how the Book of Mormon chooses at different times to actually give us the prayers, like Moroni abridged in the book of Ether will give us the prayer of the brother of Jared. Not to tell us he prayed. He’ll actually let us read his words.

  29:55 What do you think if we wrap things up with two last questions?

Hank Smith: 29:58 Yeah, let’s do it. This is great.

Dr. Nate Williams: 29:58 Question number nine. Let’s jump to chapter four for these questions, these last two. Two things seem to be happening in chapter four. On one hand we see the church in verse four, getting established more fully, thousands of people uniting the church through baptism. And then on the other hand, we see the church failing in its progress. It’s hard to believe and imagine in one simple chapter you’ve got such extreme things happening, a church that is getting established, a church that is failing.

  30:38 I guess the first question, because we want to end on the positive today, is in these chapters, what does it look like for the church to fail? What are some of those distinguishing characteristics of a failing church?

John Bytheway: 30:57 One might be that we’re striving for unity. If you’re not one, you’re not mine. There’s this Zion ideal that we’re striving for. And when I see verse 12, “He saw great inequality among the people,” that is the opposite of the Zion idea that we’re trying to get to.

Dr. Nate Williams: 31:18 I was thinking on your observation, John, with inequality. We have the idea of inequality coming up again in other places in the Book of Mormon, one of them being 3 Nephi before the Savior comes and the church seems to be struggling and the phrase is something like there was great inequality in the land insomuch that the church is broken up”, associating a struggling church with prevailing inequality or attitudes or behaviors that promote inequality. And focusing on this note for a second, I am so grateful to belong to the Savior’s church that is committed to overcoming any unrighteous inequality wherever it exists in the world.

  32:07 A little plug for BYU-Idaho. This is a school that admits almost every single applicant. I’m grateful to be a part of it. The list could be innumerable if a person was willing to ponder about the ways Jesus Christ is directing his servants to overcome all inequality, and the list will be staggering if you start to ponder that, about what is happening. And that is a reminder of “by their fruits, you shall know them.” Personally institutionally about a failing, struggling church.

  32:52 A couple of months ago, we were fortunate to have come to BYU-Idaho campus Sister Sharon Eubank. In her role as a humanitarian leader and director organizer in the church, she gave a stirring talk to the student body at a forum. And I was so grateful it was transcribed so I could see if I remembered what she said correctly. And in regard to maybe again, the spirit of talking about inequality for just a second in a struggling church, she said this: “I’m occasionally asked, ‘Why doesn’t the church spend more money on humanitarian work? Why doesn’t it stop building expensive temples and focus its resources on relieving the poor?'” I think sometimes chapters like this stretch us and stir us about that.

  33:45 She says, “This is a legitimate question for the church of Jesus Christ. But is it money that solves society’s ills? The world has poured $2 billion into addressing chronic issues in Africa. Why isn’t the situation better? Because money isn’t really the issue. Lasting progress comes through trusted relationships, infrastructure, reducing corruption and the ability of people to work together. Money doesn’t necessarily create those things. They must be developed alongside resources and frankly, it’s much harder work.”

  34:23 This is certainly coming from somebody who’s been in the trenches and knows about the challenges and messiness of that. She goes on to say, ” I will never discount the one thing this church does that lifts entire communities in rapid development.” Maybe everybody could think, “Well, what is that?”

  34:39 “It invites men and women of all social classes and backgrounds to enter sacred buildings and make the most binding and important promises of their mortal lives. In those buildings, they promise not to steal, not to lie. They promise to be faithful to their spouse and children and they vow they will seek the interest of their neighbors and be peacemakers and become devoted to the idea that we’re all one family, all valued and all alike unto God. If those promises made in holy temples are kept, it transforms society faster than any aid or development project ever could. The greatest charitable development on the planet is for people to bind themselves to God and mean it. Thank goodness the church builds 335 temples and counting. It’s the greatest poverty alleviation system in the world.”

  35:43 That’s the phrase I was drawn to. Like did I hear that right? Did I hear somebody who’s really in the trenches, in the temporal as well as the spiritual, the greatest poverty alleviation system, make a covenant and really mean it? And like John said earlier, they’re committed to this Zion-like truth that we’re going to be one heart, one mind. We’re going to dwell in righteousness and there’s not going to be poor among us. And they find people right around them, even though they’re worried about the whole world, that at least find people right around them that they can start administering to, they can start imparting of their substance to.

John Bytheway: 36:22 Oh, I just want to know, is that a published source? I love that so much.

Dr. Nate Williams: 36:25 Yeah. That’s why I had to go online and find her forum. And I was so glad they had a transcript of it so that I could make sure I was hearing it right and I could quote it right. It’s very stirring, very thought-provoking.

John Bytheway: 36:37 Was it at BYU?

Dr. Nate Williams: 36:39 It was at BYU-Idaho. Let’s make sure we know that.

John Bytheway: 36:43 I love the idea that Jesus ministered one at a time, that hearts are changed one at a time. And we’re going to change the world. It’s going to be one at a time, which is going to take a while.

Hank Smith: 36:56 I noticed in Alma 4:11 and 12 that iniquity and inequality, those two words are really close together. And I wonder if they have the same etymology that if not we could say that iniquity and inequality are closely linked.

Dr. Nate Williams: 37:16 I think so too, and I think it’s an interesting mystery to ponder on, how iniquity creates selfish, unequal societies. It was a little surprising to me a few years ago when somebody pointed out what they called the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. Many of us have maybe stereotypical thoughts of that. And this person went to the Book of Ezekiel and read from chapter 16 and said, “This was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom.” And then the list goes on, pride. We see that a lot here. Fullness of bread, abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and the needy. And none of my list of these sexual transgressions or other things seemed to surface in Ezekiel’s recounting. But there were elements of pride and abundance that is turned away from the least of these.

  38:14 There’s a fascinating parable in the Doctrine and Covenants about inequality. I’m intrigued by it. It stirs me. I’m not sure if I completely understand it. It’s the story in section 38 in this revelation where saints are wrestling with imparting of their substance going to New York to Ohio literally, or also from those who maybe have in Ohio and need to give. But God gives this parable. And before he gives the parable in section 38, he says, “Let every man esteem his brother as himself.” And then this one verse parallel, “For what man among you having 12 sons and is no respecter of them and they serve him obediently and he saith unto the one, ‘Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here,’ and to the other, ‘Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou here.'” It seems like a strange Lord. “And looketh upon his sons and saith, ‘I am just.'”

  39:18 I think everybody would look at that parable and say, “That is not a just father. That is not a just king.” The commentary Jesus gives to this parable, “Behold this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am.” And then he goes on to say the phrase most of us know, “I say unto you, be one. And if ye are not one, ye are not mine.” This is how I see this, and I certainly stand to be corrected by anybody.

  39:51 Jesus is not into creating unequal situations, but he has given us a really unequal situation in mortality. There are a lot of situations where every single person could say, “That’s unfair,” and probably be accurate. So how could that be like Jesus? Well, this is where I read a little bit between the lines, knowing other scriptures.

  40:17 What about that is like Jesus? Jesus is fully committed to helping us overcome any inequality that stands between us and Heavenly Father. He is the great act of one who overcomes inequality so that we can become like him. There’s a big, big gap between us, and he’s willing to do everything he can to help us become one with the Father. And if you’re not one, you’re not mine. And he invites us in a number of ways to engage in this opportunity to overcome temporal spiritual inequality, to become one like him, to practice what he does through his power, through his infinite condescension and atonement to help people reach a higher level of living than they could on their own.

Hank Smith: 41:13 What did you say? There’s the ultimate distance of inequality, right? We’re trying to be like Jesus, but we have a long ways to go.

Dr. Nate Williams: 41:23 There’s a big gap.

  41:25 So the last question really is something we’ve already talked about, but it’s more on the positive. A church that’s getting successful and getting established. How do we best measure success, progress or spirituality in the church of Jesus Christ? Are there outward indications that are better than others or are there any outward indications of progress that we’re really making a difference in people’s lives that would help somehow be a tangible outward measurement of how we’re doing with inward spirituality, inward commitment, inward growth, inward coming unto Christ?

  42:06 Because here in these chapters, it looks like the one indication they mention when the church is getting more fully established is baptism. There were people getting baptized. And baptism hopefully outwardly symbols a lot of stuff that’s happening inside with the doctrine of Christ. And maybe like baptism, something that we’ve mentioned is the sacrament. Is the sacrament, is an interest to participate in ordinances and covenants, at least somewhat of an outward symbol that we hope something’s going on inside with the spiritual lives of people connecting to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?

  42:48 Are there other thoughts you see in this chapter that you would think about with how do we measure progress in the church in effective ways?

John Bytheway: 42:58 That last general conference was so focused on the temple, people using those temples. And boy, what Sister Eubanks said, I can’t stop thinking about, going and making covenants with God about how we’re going to take care of each other. Could be an outward measure. And we’re using the temples, and going to the temple, is the temple getting into us you might say.

Hank Smith: 43:23 I’m impressed with Alma’s example here in chapter four. One, he’s aware of these situations. He’s mindful of what’s happening. Two, the inequality really touches him. It says he began to be very sorrowful. And then three, he knows he can’t do it all. What is it that Elder Oaks said once in that talk good, better, best? The number of good things we can do far exceeds the time available to accomplish them. He cannot do everything he would like to do. So he focuses in on bearing pure testimony. He gives up what I think would be a job with more perks, the chief judge spot, and he decides to focus in on teaching.

  44:14 I find it interesting that as chief judge, he could probably make new laws to make people be righteous, I mean pile on some laws that will maybe corner you or force you into fixing what’s wrong. But he wants people, like we talked about earlier, he wants people to choose what’s right, not be forced to do what’s right. He knows out of the two roles he has that it’s the high priest’s job that is actually going to make a difference in changing people’s hearts and persuading them to use their agency to choose equality. So maybe to answer your question, am I like Alma in all of these ways?

John Bytheway: 44:57 I had a sister once raise her hand in a class and talk about how much the end of verse 15 meant to her, where it says, “He began to be very sorrowful. Nevertheless, the spirit of the Lord did not fail him.” And she wept with that verse. That He won’t fail you, He didn’t fail Alma, he won’t fail us.

Dr. Nate Williams: 45:20 One of the experiences I had that I think reinforces what we’ve been talking about for me is a discussion I had with a leader of the church once when I asked him the question, ” How do we measure success effectively?” And I think there are a lot of possibilities, and I’ve enjoyed exploring possibilities with you today on how do we measure if faith’s working, how do we measure if repentance is working? Do you have any hope that we got a finger on the pulse? It was such an intriguing, instructive answer this leader gave me that I’ve been pondering upon and I find it very scriptural so I feel comfortable sharing it. He alluded to the time period that he was a stake president and he would visit various wards, and had that kind of question in mind like, “How’s this ward doing? Do we have any indication besides positive reports about how they’re doing? Do any of our many, many numbers really reflect anything about the spiritual pulse of a people or a ward?”

  46:22 And I was struck by his quick, clear answer. He said, “When I want to find out the spiritual well-being of a ward, I look at their fast offering contributions.” And they’re like, “Oh wow, that’s it?” You look at their fast offering contribution. So I can go to the temple without paying any fast offerings. They don’t ask me about my fast offerings. They ask about do I pay tithing? But again, I wonder maybe tying back to Sister Eubank’s thoughts, if I really understand and take those covenants seriously, do I find myself generously giving in a lot of different areas of my life because of the abundance of mercy I find flowing from the Lord into my life as a result of that? And it seems like here, those who are getting it and those who aren’t getting it in the church are those who seem to be yoked with Christ, serious about that covenant and that relationship, and let that spill over into so many generous areas of their life in other ways, in their relationships with all kinds of people that they might have the blessing to experience or encounter life with.

Hank Smith: 47:42 I love that, Nate, because a fast offering is between you and the Lord. It’s not, “Oh, I want to go to the temple, so I am going to do this.” It’s, there’s a spiritual check there. I want to use my agency to choose equality in my sphere, in my little piece of Zion.

Dr. Nate Williams: 48:04 Not spelling it out, not micromanaged, a free-will offering of what you feel there is appropriate for your situation. And maybe that goes with what thoughts President Nelson was thinking about when he said one of the easiest ways to identify a true follower of Jesus Christ is how compassionately that person treats other people. And is that some degree that Christ is working in us when we are compassionate, when we’re generous, when we are committed ourselves to being overcomers of inequality wherever they might manifest themselves, unrighteously, in our lives.

John Bytheway: 48:47 We have a hymn about that, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples.” Could have been a lot of different measures, but this is how you know. This is what Jesus said. If you have love one to another, that’s interesting.

Hank Smith: 49:02 This discussion has reminded me of a quote from Joseph Smith I’m sure both of you recognize. He said, “The nearer we get to our Heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls. We feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, cast their sins behind our backs. If you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another.”

Dr. Nate Williams: 49:27 I love that. To me, one of the things that I see in the ministry of Joseph Smith is the power of Jesus Christ and the mercy that he wanted to extend to others. I know there were times Joseph was frustrated and upset, and maybe harsh in his language towards some, but think about the return of WW Phelps after times of apostasy. I think about other moments where Joseph himself is being stretched to forgive not only apostates, but maybe others who persecute and to transcend this world through love. The power of the Savior that invites even his prophets into that painful path of discipleship that helps you overcome through Christ, and become a being of love.

John Bytheway: 50:17 He didn’t burn bridges. What’s the beautiful WW Phelps, “Friends at first are friends again at last, come now dear brother for the war has passed and friends at first are friends again at last.” Is that what it was?

Dr. Nate Williams: 50:29 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 50:31 Nate, this has been wonderful. I loved how you formatted this with, “Let’s go question after question after question.” We’ve never done that before on this show. That was really fun. Before we let you go, let’s say I’m on my commute or I’m washing dishes or I’m folding laundry, or I’m out on a bike ride and I’m listening to the show. What do you hope I do differently? What do you hope I walk with?

Dr. Nate Williams: 50:59 As we introduced things today, we talked a little bit about where these chapters ended, with Alma committing himself to the Holy Order of God and preaching the word of God, leaving the judgment seat, turning it over to a really good man, Nephihah, but committing himself to the preaching of the word. In a way, every one of us gets the word through a messenger, whether that be Mormon, whether that be Alma, whether that be Joseph Smith, we’ve talked about today, or most importantly today, whether that be President Russell M. Nelson. And I would hope that there would be a spirit to deepen and seek and treasure the relationship you have to God through his servants that have written scripturally, and that live today and mediate Jesus to us, until He mediates that relationship through His spirit.

  52:04 And personally, I love the thought from Joseph Smith when he says, “Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God.” It’s pretty simple. I am grateful for God’s spirit that has helped me find those true messengers in the Book of Mormon, that were really preparatory to anchoring me in the living legal administrator of God, a living prophet, that the book is good to the degree it helps you find the living oracle, the living vessel that can administer Christ to me, knowing that in the oath and covenant of the priesthood, if you don’t receive the servant in all honesty and truth, you can’t receive Christ. And I hope that’s something to think about and continue to ponder on and let this book be a great catalyst in your connection to Jesus, and to his living authorized servants on the earth today.

Hank Smith: 53:10 Thank you, Dr. Williams. What a joy. What a joy. BYU Idaho is blessed to have you there. Occasionally, I think President Meredith might tune into our show, so President Meredith, if you’re out there one, BYU Idaho is absolutely amazing. We should send our children to Rexburg. And two, take care of our Dr. Williams, Elder Meredith. He’s a great soul.

Dr. Nate Williams: 53:42 Thank you so much. You two have made me feel so comfortable. What an amazing experience it is to go back to this text, read it 100 times in this last month, and to see how shallow you still are. And that there are still a lot of pathways and corridors you haven’t really explored yet in the Book of Mormon. Been quite a blessing. So thank you both of you. I look up to you, I admire what you do and the influence you have. I was doing the math in my head and getting a little petrified thinking of the number of people that actually listen to this, thinking, “I’m quadrupling 30 years of teaching experience in three hours.” It’s always a privilege to talk about the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith: 54:26 Really is.

Dr. Nate Williams: 54:27 It’s not a burden, just get over yourself. That’s what I got to remember. So thank you.

Hank Smith: 54:33 Our listeners all over the world have been blessed today. And those of you listening, come over to YouTube and let Dr. Williams know where you’re listening from. It’s really fun to show our guests the reach they’re having.

John Bytheway: 54:48 Thank you so much. I just wish that we could find maybe a videotape of that alley-oop you did when you were on Ricks College basketball team.

Dr. Nate Williams: 54:58 Hey, there was no alley-oop, it was a one-handed, wide-open dunk that barely made it in. I’m still calling it a dunk, but it may have rattled a little bit in the cylinder there, but there was definitely no alley-oop.

John Bytheway: 55:14 Well, I’ve had a dunk.

Dr. Nate Williams: 55:15 My hand was barely above the rim.

John Bytheway: 55:17 Yeah. My dunk was on a rim that said Fisher-Price on the back, so it’s just not the same.

Dr. Nate Williams: 55:25 I hope you pulled the backboard off, hung on it for a little while. Feels good.

Hank Smith: 55:30 Well, not to be cheesy, but today was a slam dunk. It was excellent. It was excellent. We want to thank Dr. Nate Williams for being with us today. It has been a joy to walk through these chapters. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always, every episode, we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to start Alma’s Reactivation tour on followHIM.

  56:04 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, FollowHim.co. That’s FollowHim.co. On our website, you’ll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else.

  56:38 If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 56:59 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.