John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Jenet Erickson. Mosiah chapters 25 through 28.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:07 Well, let’s go into 27, and here we’re going to get this remarkable instruction about what we might call, I think Joe Spencer calls it the political theology of the Book of Mormon. Mosiah is going to establish the rule of law, in a sense that there will be religious freedom. No persecutions, all will be equal, each laboring for their own support abounding in the grace of God. He’s going to recognize that the flourishment of truth and human flourishing cannot happen without establishing religious freedom. That is true around the world. It’s interesting the data on that, how nations that have higher levels of religious freedom have higher flourishing in a host of things, including economically thriving. There’s more entrepreneurship, there’s more investment from companies. There’s more growth, and stability that allows for that growth. You have stronger equality between men and women, the more religious freedom there is. There’s just a lot to be said for the power of establishing religious freedom and the flourishing of human beings, and certainly our church stands for that. There’s Joseph Smith saying, “At the core of it all is the need to honor the rights of all in their religious beliefs and convictions.”

Hank Smith: 01:30 The difficulties in Missouri, I think, brought that out of him, that it’s not just us. We want the right to worship for everyone.

John Bytheway: 01:42 And it was in the Constitution and it didn’t seem like he was, “Wait, we have a right.” Yeah. You find him in church history talking about, well, this right is for everybody in the Constitution. It’s interesting you brought that up.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:58 We’re going to get to the next powerful story. Verse eight. “Now, the sons of Mosiah were numbered among the unbelievers, the sons of the King, and also one of the sons of Alma was numbered among them, and he was a wicked and idolatrous man stealing away the hearts of the people causing much dissension”. And this is powerful. It helps us understand why protecting the church is important. Alma, his father, trying to know what it means to maintain the integrity of the church, because it says this was a great hinderment. It gave a chance for the enemy of God to exercise his power over them. So it’s creating vulnerability among people. How painful to have his own son engaging in that. It appears like it was secretly … he may not even been fully aware of all that his son was doing.

Hank Smith: 02:52 Maybe it was because of his new policy.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 02:55 Yeah, that’s so interesting.

John Bytheway: 02:57 It’s scary that he’s called a man of many words and much flattery. Who else gets that description? Sherem and Korihor.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 03:06 Yes. And he will stand before Korihor. It’s so interesting. Alma will towards the very end of his life, and see, I’m sure, in Korihor who he had been.

John Bytheway: 03:17 That’s brutal.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 03:19 We’re going to read in Verses 14 through 16. I remember as a child reading this and thinking about people I loved and wondering why does the Lord send an angel to them? He answered Alma the father’s prayer, and I’m sure his wife and the mother of Alma, why doesn’t he answer this family’s prayer? And I think it’s helpful 100% to know the Lord is hearing and answering our prayers. And we heard that reiterated in conference several times in really beautiful ways. But what’s happening here, is the Lord is not going to allow his church to be destroyed. So we might see it as this kind gesture to a father who’s praying for his son. In fact, the Lord is saying, ” I’m not sure what Alma the younger is going to do, but I am not going to allow my church to be destroyed.” He’s going to say in Verse 13, “Alma arise and stand forth. Why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord has said, this is my church and I will establish it and nothing shall overthrow it.” Of yourself, later, he’s going to say, “You may choose of yourself to destroy yourself, but you will not destroy the church.”

  04:31 And I think that there’s a lot to be said about trusting in God. His will be done. We can trust Him. And if it’s not our will, we can know it is His will and it will be okay, but His will will be done. Now, don’t you love that? He’s going to say to him, Verse 15, “Can ye dispute the power of God?” And we’re going to hear the sons of Mosiah say the same thing. “What else could do such a thing except the power of God?” So in Verse 20, “and they rehearsed unto his father, all that had happened, and his father rejoiced for he knew it was the power of God”. Nothing else could do this.”

Hank Smith: 05:12 I’ve walked out of my lessons before thinking that this angel is going to appear and go, “Seek no more to destroy the church of God.” I’m like, “I’m trying to teach.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 05:24 But we can have that feeling and just to know God will not allow us to destroy his church. He won’t. Are you amazed that Alma, the Father, gathers all the people together? I remember when I was younger reading about this man and recognizing how humiliating. If he were in a place of using his son to validate himself in any way, which is the place that I can often be in. It’s natural for parents. My children are a reflection of me, my skills, my capacities. Their goodness is an evidence of my goodness, and their failure, it’s so human of us, as parents, to be like, “Their failure is an indication of my failure.” It can be shameful to see your own children struggle. And then you’ll often hear that feeling of, “I have failed.” There’s a feeling that parents might have, “I somehow failed. I didn’t do … because look at this child, they’re an indication of my failure.” And Alma. He is not in that place.

  06:23 I love it. He gathers everybody together. He’s totally unafraid for the whole world to see. “This is my son who has been going about as the vilest of sinners. All I want you to see is the hand of God in this person’s life, in my son’s life.” It’s inspiring to me, not unlike the father, the prodigal son. He says, “Here’s my son. He was dead and is alive again. He was lost, but is found.” There’s that beautiful purity and his yearning for them to see the hand of God in his son’s life. John, do you mind reading Verse 22?

John Bytheway: 07:00 Mosiah 27:22. “And he caused that the priests should assemble themselves together and they began to fast and to pray to the Lord their God, that He would open the mouth of Alma, that he might speak, and also that his limbs might receive their strength, that the eyes of the people might be open to see and know of the goodness and glory of God.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 07:21 So beautiful because, sometimes, we can be in that space of, “God, this child’s suffering, or they’re doing wrong, or they have done wrong. And this is shameful.” And Alma is in a space of saying this is an evidence of the goodness and glory of God. Not my own, not this child’s goodness, not somehow that I was more successful, but this is God who is manifesting Himself here in the life of this son.

John Bytheway: 07:46 As some people read this appearance of the angel, there may be parents out there who are saying, “Hey, could I order one of these for one of my kids?” And they’re looking at the footnotes and, oh yeah, if you would like this kind of divine intervention, see appendix B. And there’s an order form back there. How high in the Richter scale can I go? I want thunder. Let’s do a 9.2 on the Richter. And when I read Verse 15, Jenet, you mentioned this. It’s just the angels. Sounds like he’s having some fun with him. So, huh? Can you dispute the power of God? Huh?

Hank Smith: 08:19 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 08:19 Do you see me standing here before you? Does my voice shake the earth? And then, “Behold, I am sent from God.” What are you going to do now? And I’m imagining, I was thinking about going on a mission. Yeah, good idea. I love the little sermon in a sentence in Verse 16. “Go and remember.” Oh, that’s good. “Go and remember. Remember the captivity of thy fathers in the land of Helam.” They had to get delivered out of there. And here you are. I would love to believe that angel is Abinadi who’s watching over that family. There’s nothing that indicates that. I’ve never heard anybody say it, but wouldn’t that be cool?

Hank Smith: 09:00 Yeah. Wouldn’t that be great?

John Bytheway: 09:03 If the angel was Abinadi? We’ll have to ask him one day.

Hank Smith: 09:05 He’s just like your father.

John Bytheway: 09:07 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 09:09 John, we’re going to come back to that expression you pulled out. Not only does he remember that deliverance, but he’s going to preach and testify, that it’s going to be the cornerstone of his testimony, his conversion process, I think, from Alma.

John Bytheway: 09:24 And I remember somebody in Old Testament year, saying that the one event that is talked about the most in the Old Testament, and a lot of the New, is the Exodus, is that deliverance. Now they have their own deliverance story. Maybe in church history, we can think of the pioneers like that too. And we can remember that journey and those pioneers who stood as a witness of God thereafter, they were told to do here. Oh, there’s one other thing I think is kind of cool. In the manual for individuals and families, there’s my favorite little Walter Rane painting. It’s kind of small,

John Bytheway: 10:00 but the four sons of Mosiah are carrying Alma, who’s unconscious, to mom and dad. And mom’s going, “Oh no.” And dad’s going, “All right.” And you could see the different reactions in the painting.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 10:13 That is so interesting. You’re recognizing that deliverance may yet come. Meaning the angel is not the one who creates the conversion that converts Alma. He’s given a choice by what he experiences. But then for all of us who are still yearning for people to come back, for people to know the truth, I was really touched reading Joseph Grenny, who works with people who have left prison and are seeking a way out through that, The Other Side, is what it’s called, that remarkable institution in Salt Lake that facilitates people coming out of addiction.

  10:49 He has seen so many beautiful and also hard stories. People will be changing and then they’ll go back and you could wonder, when is this going to happen? And I love how he wrote recently, “The primary godly creative capacity God is training me for is measured by how long I can hold a vision of righteous longings while no evidence yet exists for their fulfillment.” And that we become like God, as we hold that place, hold onto the truth and the assurance that God hears and answers prayers, that he will do his work in the lives of those we love and we hold onto it even when we don’t see yet any evidence for the fulfillment of that. That’s how we grow into how God is.

John Bytheway: 11:39 Elder Jeffrey R. Holland in a book called However Long and Hard the Road, he said, “We learn that there is majestic, undeniable power in the love and prayer of a parent. The angel who appeared to Alma and the sons of Mosiah did not come in response to any righteousness on their part, though their souls were still precious in the sight of God. He came in response to the prayers of a faithful parent and to save the church”, as you said. But I love that the angel says, “For this purpose, have I come.” And what is this purpose? In verse 14, “Alma who is thy father, has prayed with much faith concerning thee.” Wow.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 12:19 And he will hear the prayers of every parent, even if it’s answered in a different way from an angel appearing.

John Bytheway: 12:24 A different sequence than you might think. But yeah, you can take that verse and say, “This was saved for me.”

Hank Smith: 12:31 Yeah. We don’t want any parent out there to think, “Oh, I just don’t have enough faith.” Because we don’t know how long Alma has been praying.

John Bytheway: 12:39 How long he prayed, how many sleepless nights? We don’t know.

Hank Smith: 12:42 Yeah, could be years. Right, Jenet? You said he could be an adult here. Alma the younger.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 12:47 He could have been in his… I mean he had 20 years after that. That suggests he wasn’t a teenager. It was so beautiful to hear Susan Porter in this most recent general conference, Sister Porter talk about her father and I could hear the yearnings of this child wanting her dad to join the church and have their family sealed. You’d hear the heart of this child all through her life and he dies. He didn’t come into the church before he died. President Nelson’s parents did. President Hunter’s parents did. Elder Bednar’s, all these people who’ve experienced something like that. And yet they came in before the end and her dad dies. And then it was so beautiful to think of this child who’d prayed for so long within six days of his passing, he is ready to have those blessings given. So you think we cannot know when, but we can know for sure he hears those prayers. God will bring about miracles in lives that we can’t even anticipate all the ways that he will bring about those miracles.

John Bytheway: 13:52 I love what Sheri Dew said, that the gospel reaches across the street, across the world and across the veil.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 13:58 And across the veil. There is no end. There’s no barrier in that sense. I want to take us to this story of deliverance, this powerful message of deliverance. Alma is going to say, let’s see his testimony, verse 24. He stands up and bids them to be of comfort. I’m okay. And then he says, “Behold I am born of the spirit.” And then he tells us the words of the Lord that every person will need to be changed, every one of us, not just Alma, the vilest of sinners. Every one of us will need to be born again and become new creatures. And then he’s going to testify, “I am born of God.” The end of verse 28 and verse nine, “My soul has been redeemed.” And then I love this verse 30, “I rejected my Redeemer and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers. But now that they may foresee that he will come and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all.”

  15:03 So Alma was saying, he has done that for me. I rejected him and he has made himself manifest to me. And then he’s going to say, “It’s not just me. It’s all, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess before him at the last day when all shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God.” Every single one of us is going to ultimately know who this God is and we may choose to reject him. I don’t know that very many are going to choose to reject him in the end, but all of us will know. Alma is then going to testify of that beautiful truth. I love that. If we go to Alma 36, somebody will do this later, wonderfully guide us through this.

  15:48 But here’s this pattern that we opened with at the beginning where you see the words Alma 36. He’s going to start that Chiasmus, that’s so beautiful that Jack Welch brought to light as a young missionary in Germany. We’re going to see these words, captivity, bondage, none could deliver but Christ, trust, deliverance, born of God. There’s the series. And then he’s going to end that story where he is telling Helaman, his son, about his conversion experience. He’s going back to what we’re reading. He’s just retelling it in greater detail. And he’s going to start with that list in that order and he’s going to end in exactly that list. He’s going to end with, born of God, deliverance, trust, none could deliver but Christ, bondage and captivity. So that beautiful chiastic structure where it’s A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and then G, F ends in the other order.

  16:48 But when we think about that language, if we went back to Abinadi’s words way back that Abinadi says to his father, we’re going to see in Abinadi’s words that he prophesies bondage, captivity. This is Mosiah 11, verses 21 and 23. He’s going to say, “There will be bondage, captivity. None shall deliver them except it be the Lord, the Almighty God.” Abinadi is going to say those words. Alma in Mosiah 24 with his people is going to say exactly the same thing. They had been in bondage and he had delivered them and none could deliver except it were, the Lord their God. Those same words. And John, as you pointed out in Mosiah 25, we’re going to hear Alma say that the people should remember that it was the Lord who had delivered them. Then we’re going to hear the angel say to Alma, you need to remember that the Lord delivered them out of bondage.

  17:45 And then we’re going to hear in Alma 36, Alma tell that whole thing in his story. “I was captive. I was in bondage. None could deliver but Christ, I put my trust in him. He delivered me and I was born of him.” Alma, his father is going to talk about it in terms of a physical redemption, physical deliverance. You were brought out of physical bondage, and what we’re going to see is the movement from that physical bondage story into the most deeply personal redemption spiritually that is ultimately going to be expressed in, “I was born of God, I was changed, became a new person.” We’re going to see him tell that story in Alma 36. He’s going to do the same thing in Alma chapter five. He’s going to talk about, have you remembered their captivity? Have you remembered the need to be changed and born of God and to put your trust in God and in it, that song of redeeming love that comes, that then brings hope and is born of faith.

  18:53 So charity, faith, and hope, it’s going to be grounded in that message of captivity, deliverance, none could deliver but Christ, he delivered me and I’m born of him. I couldn’t help but think, “Well, what does this have to do with all of us?” I may not see myself as the vilest of sinners. Am I in captivity? Do I experience bondage? Alma’s going to reference, as you mentioned already, he’s going to reference in Alma 36, this whole story of the Exodus, that most oft repeated story. That’s the story of deliverance. Again, do I need deliverance? I think of all the moments, every day when the burdens of the ego, if they will, the fears or the temptations or the anxieties, the worry about, “Am I being noticed? This is uncomfortable, life is uncomfortable,” and all the moments throughout, every day when we need deliverance from a redeemer and he promises us,

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 20:00 He will do that, he will do it. And the deliverance will take the form of that doctrine of Christ, change as we are born of him, through the process of faith, repentance, renewing that covenant, experiencing the power of the spirit and becoming changed. And we will all know ultimate and full deliverance having been reborn through putting our trust in the deliverer, Christ. It’s remarkable how Mormon does this for us. Here it is in Mosiah, Abinadi’s words. Here it is in Alma’s words. Here it is in Alma the Younger’s words. Here it is these same powerful expressions of deliverance from bondage through Christ and none could do it for any of us, but Christ himself.

John Bytheway: 20:51 That’s really good, Jenet.

Hank Smith: 20:53 Had to underline verse 30. “He remembereth every creature.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 20:59 He had this beautiful description of the soil that we create that allows access to the living water where we pull out the weeds. And you may be wondering, well goodness, have I made the right soil, I yell at them, the spirit’s not in the home. We didn’t do scripture study, we didn’t do all of these things. And he ends with, “Watch the Lord Jesus Christ perform his miracles.”

  21:20 John, as you were referencing what Alma’s answer is when the Lord says to him as he’s worried about, “What about these people and what do I do?” And he says, if we go back to that verse, “It is I that hath created them. It is I that granteth him, that believeth, and in my name are they called. They shall know me. They shall know that I am the Lord, their God.” His father’s bearing that testimony and Alma the son is bearing that testimony. Every knee will bend and know, President Uchtdorf is inviting us to, “You do what you can do and you are not the Redeemer. He will do his work and you watch as he brings forth his miracles.”

Hank Smith: 22:04 Sarah and I, many, many eons ago, we were walking out of the Jordan River temple and we were walking back to our car. She said something so odd. She said, “Do you think that Adam and Eve felt really dumb when they found out that they had been naked the entire time?” And I was, “What?” And she said, “Wouldn’t you feel, ‘Oh my goodness, what was I-

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 22:32 So embarrassed. Ashamed, right?

Hank Smith: 22:34 Yeah. “I did that and I did that and I did that. And oh, had I known,” and I said, “Sarah, this is a funny thing that you’re telling me. I don’t know why you’re telling it to me.” And she said, “It really changed me.” She said, “It is not fair to judge yesterday’s mistakes with today’s knowledge. You’ve learned something now that you probably didn’t realize then. It’s not fair for you to take what you know now and judge you of 10, 20, 30 years ago.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 23:07 Yeah. Wise, Sarah. Because it’s so beautiful that the Lord then says to them, Satan’s saying, “Look, you’re naked. Run quick, hide. How shameful that you’re so imperfect that you have weakness.'” And the Lord says, “Come, come. I will cover you.” And he clothes them in something far better than what they had tried to create. Which atonement word, kaphar. When I first became a mom, it was so striking me, I was set up for failure. I’m completely set up for failure is how it felt. I’m still immature. I’m still developing as a person and I have these very dependent souls who are going to be shaped by me, who are going to be shaped by my lack of development. And it felt like I was going back to Adam and Eve where they’re between this place, “We’re trapped here. We can’t keep both these commandments. How do we do it?” And here the father says, “I will send a redeemer.” What did you think? This whole thing was about your learning and growth, and it’s a story not of perfection. It never was. It was always a story of redemption, for parents and children in their struggle. I am learning about God. I’m learning to have faith in his redeeming power. I am growing in the ways I need to grow through. The very thing that seems so wrong to me is the catalyst for my own coming to know and trust the Redeemer. And God, he does this so beautifully. He’s bringing about their redemption and he’s bringing about my redemption in the same story even though my ego’s like, “But I wanted to do it perfectly. Wasn’t I expected to do it perfectly?” And we’ll hit ourselves against the wall if we think this is the story of perfection. It has always been a story of redemption. The whole thing for parents and children.

Hank Smith: 25:00 I’m going to ask Jamie Neilson, our wonderful social media manager to create that meme, Jenet, what you just said. “It was never a plan of perfection. It has always been a plan of redemption.” Almost melted there.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 25:16 Thank goodness, right? Thank God. This is a story of redemption. Well, do you know what we get to end with? We get Mosiah 28 and these incredible men, the vilest of sinners want to do the hardest thing imaginable. They want to go to a people who have hated them and there’s been so much danger and battle and warfare and threat and they want to go share the gospel of Jesus Christ and they can’t bear but do it. They can’t keep themselves back.

  25:52 And not only do they want to go do that, they’re denying their right as princes, inheritors of the throne, who could have had such a life. So beautiful that, that belief in Christ is such a catalyst to further saving work. We have to be part, the more converted we are, we can’t help but want to be part of his saving work. And they’re going to work a remarkable miracle, miracles we will see for hundreds of years yet be manifest in this remarkable decision to leave all that they had and go help save others.

John Bytheway: 26:28 And before they leave, at the end of Mosiah 27, it says, “They went about zealously striving to repair the injuries which they had done.” I go, “Mormon, that was good editing right there.” Look at verse 37 because he is going to say what the wicked priests asked Abinadi, they tried to stump him with this Isaiah verse and verse 37, “How blessed are they? They did publish peace. They did publish good tidings of good and they did declare unto the people that the Lord reigneth”, though here comes Abinadi again, because that’s the question that they asked the wicked priest. I think well, Mormon, that was elegant. How you stuck that in there. That was good.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 27:09 And don’t you think he loved it? I mean, he loves saying, “Here’s this wicked priest that heard those words, is converted by that. Has a son who is as wicked as can be, who is converted by Christ. And now all of these are going to publish peace.” There is the story of redemption. What they couldn’t have known would be possible, the most magnificent story possible.

John Bytheway: 27:32 And Abinadi, after he reads Mosiah 14, which is Isaiah 53, he explains it in Mosiah 15. And he says, “Who are they?” Well, he says, “These are they who have published peace.” I’m not using the exact words. There are those who will hereafter publish peace. And here’s Abinadi prophesying almost about the four sons of Mosiah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 27:53 So beautiful.

Hank Smith: 27:55 It’s almost as if these four sons thought we have a better kingdom to build than our own.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 28:01 Yes, they trade it and you see their father, it’s such an incredible decision because not only does it change the whole future and prepare for the Savior’s return. That work had to be done for him to come, but then you also recognize that because they refuse the kingdom, Mosiah cannot pass it on and the entire political structure will change to allow the flourishing of the church, the design of God from the beginning.

John Bytheway: 28:29 And it could have been Mosiah’s like, “Boys, were you listening when we had the records of Zeniff read and the records of Alma? Do you know what it took to get those people? You want to go back there?”

Hank Smith: 28:41 I’m sure there’s many Nephites we find out later who say, “That’s crazy.”

John Bytheway: 28:46 They’re going to reflect on it later in Alma. And some said, “No, let’s kill them.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 28:53 It’s so scary that King Mosiah is, “This can’t be right.” I mean, he has to go before the Lord to say, ” What do you think about this?” And I love how the answer he receives from the Lord is in verse 7, “And the Lord said unto Mosiah, ‘Let them go up, for many shall believe on their words, and they shall have eternal life. And I will deliver thy sons out of the hands of the Lamanites.'”

  29:19 You can hear the prayer of Jacob and the prayer of Enos and all of this earnestness. How do we help them know the truth? How do we bring Lehi’s and Sariah’s descendants back? And you see here it is and they must have rejoiced to see these young men make this choice to go do that, to start that great work.

Hank Smith: 29:39 We’ve been talking about parents so much, I automatically thought of parents’ private suffering of sending a child on a mission.

John Bytheway: 29:47 Yeah. Pretty soon I’ll have one son in Uruguay and one son in West Virginia. I’m saying, “Okay, Lord, take care of them.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 29:56 Yes. What an act of faith of parents. There’s no question. I hadn’t thought about it until, myself, because our children are 14 and 11, but when we were in Madagascar recently visiting my brother, his family was serving a mission there. I thought, “Oh my goodness. What if my Peter were called to serve here?” And all of a sudden I could just hear what an act of faith it is for parents to entrust their children literally to the hands of God with no ability to control what they will experience or the hunger, whatever kinds of things, right?

Hank Smith: 30:30 I can’t talk about this. I cannot. John, you got to walk me through it when it happens.

John Bytheway: 30:36 Yeah, I know. My oldest daughter, Ashley, I’ll never forget the email, “Dad, somebody spit on me today.” You’re like, “Oh no.”

Hank Smith: 30:44 Let them go up.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 30:46 Yeah, let them go up because you know how much it will mean.

John Bytheway: 30:50 In verse 3, it talks about their motives, “the thought that any human soul should perish. Yea, even the very thought that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble”. When I read endless torment, I think of forever, but go backwards, and it says in Mosiah 27:29, “My soul was racked…” This is after he wakes up. “My soul was racked with eternal torment,” so I put in my margin. How can you have eternal torment for three days?

Hank Smith: 31:17 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 31:19 And what’s the answer to that? What’s the answer?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 31:23 Don’t we hear in section 19? It’s his way of helping us change.

John Bytheway: 31:27 Right. It’s not I didn’t say that torment would have no end. I said it was endless torment because endless is my name. It’s this, “Wait, what?” Section 19 was enormous to share that, so that’s fun that he uses that line. “I was racked with eternal torment.” How long? Three days. You can have eternal torment for three days.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 31:50 John, I love that you highlighted that this is torment that’s not endless. We might think eternal means, but that is defined by God, but I love how they couldn’t bear to think of people suffering without knowing the goodness and the redemption of God. Not that they assumed they’re going to be damned forever, but wanted them to be drawn into the light and goodness of God. Couldn’t bear for them to experience that suffering. That’s beautiful love for our brothers and sisters. They wanted to help their cousins.

John Bytheway: 32:22 I probably had a pie chart of motives for going on a mission. All right.

Hank Smith: 32:28 Right.

John Bytheway: 32:28 My brothers went-

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 32:29 As we all do.

John Bytheway: 32:29 My dad went. I’m supposed to go. I want to go. They get more refined as you’re out, but I love what it says in verse 32, “They’ve been traveling roundabout through all the land, publishing to all the people the things which they had heard and seen.” Elder Brent H. Nielson in general conference. Remember that talk? A record of what I have heard and seen, and I hope we don’t limit the idea of a testimony to the feeling because sometimes you can see the fruits of it as Jesus would say, “Know them by their fruits.” What have you heard and seen? In Acts 4, Peter and John said, “We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.”

  33:11 Sometimes it’s fun to make a list. Elder Nielson, when he began his talk, he mentioned that one of the requirements from graduating with seminary was to name all 15 temples. To be able to identify them. This will tell you how old I am. My flip chart that I had in the Philippines had 16 temples on it, and I could identify them by looking… And he said, “I couldn’t do that today.” There’s 335, and these are things we have seen and heard in our lifetimes, which is miraculous.

Hank Smith: 33:44 You could identify the 15 temples in Utah, maybe. How many are there?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 33:49 Maybe.

Hank Smith: 33:49 There’s exactly 15. I just looked it up. Jenet, as we wrap up, I have a couple of questions. One would be, here you are, you are very well-educated, very well-spoken, and you, to deepen your heart, want this to get into the hearts of your students. Why do you put so much confidence in this book? That’s quite a thing. I mean, when you think, “I’m impacting these young people, hopefully for the rest of their lives, and I’m putting my confidence in the teachings of this book,” how would you answer that? Why are you so convinced this is going to be a blessing to them?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 34:33 What a miracle it is, as President Hinckley would say, to literally heft in our hands the manifestation of God’s love that He literally, in the Book of Mormon, breaks through heaven into earth and manifests His hand to say, “I will redeem my people. I will gather Israel. I will answer the prayers of the prophets of the past, the husbands and wives, and men and women, and prophets. I will restore my children.” We literally get to carry the emblem of the covenant in our hands. When Enos talks about he’s writing this record, and you see they keep passing on generation to generation, each generation getting one closer to the fulfillment of the covenant. We hold it, in a sense, the emblem of the covenant. What is the covenant? It is that made that President Nielson teaches so beautifully before we even came to this earth that they, our heavenly parents would send a redeemer, and He would fulfill His redeeming work.

  35:40 It’s not trust in the book per se. It’s not trust in myself as a teacher. It’s trust that He is the way, the truth, and the life, and He will fulfill His promise. When we accepted Him before this life, when we accepted that He would do that, when we put our trust in Him, it was well-placed trust in the most virtuous being imaginable of being a pure love, and He did it. There’s no reason to fear or doubt. It was done. It is finished. He did the will of His Father, and it is finished. Whatever place they are, we are, in the journey. I’m so much in need of being reborn and experiencing that full process of becoming new in Christ. Wherever we are in it, He has done all that is needed, and it is assured for us. I think it’s that trust in Him, that placement of Him.

John Bytheway: 36:39 I just made another note. Well-placed trust. Where do you place your trust? Where’s the best place you can put your trust? Wow.

Hank Smith: 36:49 Jenet, our listeners all over the world, we’re going to hear from them on YouTube. I think they’re going, “Yes.” Thank you for being with us. Thanks for spending time with us.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 36:59 Oh, it’s such a privilege. We’re all so grateful for you. Thank you for doing this work.

Hank Smith: 37:03 Well, we love having you on followHIM. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to continue in the Book of Mormon on followHIM. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. On our website, you’ll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free.

  37:51 You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else. If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 38:19 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.