Hank Smith: 00:00:04 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name’s Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my believing co-host, John Bytheway, and our guest, Dr. Jenet Erickson. John, we have now finished the movement of Mosiah. People are going here and there and up and down. Everybody’s back in Zarahemla. Mosiah is King, Alma the Elder is high priest, and they run into some significant issues. What are you looking forward to today?

John Bytheway: 00:00:35 The interesting storyline here that all of a sudden everybody’s back in Zarahemla and they look at each other and they hear each other’s stories, and it’s this emotional rollercoaster for them at first to hear, “What happened to you guys? Oh, this is what happened. Oh my goodness.” Then we’ve got this rising generation stuff. And I’ll tell you, you read Mosiah 26, and you read it and it sounds like it could be today. It’s a really fascinating chapter. So, I’m looking forward to just talking about maybe this was all written for our day, as we say, and particularly chapter 26. And then what do we do? How do we react?

Hank Smith: 00:01:09 By written in chapter 26, the loneliness of leadership. Alma is in a tough spot. John, like I said, we have Dr. Jenet Erickson here. To us, she’s Jenet. But she earned that title, so we’ll call her Dr. Erickson, at least for a little bit. What are you going to take us through today? What should we be looking forward to?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:01:31 This is powerful three chapters that present to us this focal point of the establishing of the church, this change from a monarchical, like a monarchy that’s Christian with King Benjamin, to the establishing of the church. And it’s going to be so significant, because for hundreds of years they’ve been looking forward to the promise that the children of Lehi and Sariah will be restored again. And it hasn’t happened. They’ve tried and they’ve tried and it hasn’t happened and they’ve passed the record on. We see from Enos and all those generations passing on the record and the promise of the covenant. And now the church is going to be established and it will lead to the Lamanite Conversion such that the entire Lamanite nation in a sense will be converted, will become more righteous than the Nephites, and then the Savior will return.

  00:02:24 Joe Spencer will say, “This is Mormon’s project, he’s telling us about our day.” This shifting of a removal of the state in a sense from religion, the restoration of the church or the establishment of the church, the conversion of the Lamanites and the return of Christ. And there’s this beautiful plan laid out in these chapters.

  00:02:47 But not only that, there’s something maybe even more deeply meaningful at the core of this in these sections, we’re going to witness the glorious story of conversion. The vilest of sinners will be converted. And not only converted, but they’ll initiate the much looked for covenant being fulfilled. And they will be the ones who will start that restoration and enable it. So, we learn the Lord does hear the prayers of faithful parents. He hears the prayers of His people, he does intervene and His will be done.

  00:03:24 And then when we read Alma’s conversion specifically where he describes this movement from deliverance, we’re going to hear that word starting now again and again and again. This is the book of conversion and deliverance. And Alma is going to teach us what it means to move from physical deliverance to the deliverance that’s so personal of each soul coming to know that only through Christ can we be delivered. The collective and personal Redeemer who brings deliverance to each of us. I love these chapters.

Hank Smith: 00:03:59 We’re going to be introduced to Alma the Younger, who’s going to get more coverage in the Book of Mormon besides Jesus. He’s going to get more pages in the Book of Mormon than any other person. And you’re right, this movement from vilest of sinners to a translated prophet, I think one of two, right, John? One of two translated prophets in the Book of Mormon. What does that say? That message. You can go from this to this.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:04:28 These sections, the language that we’ll hear, we’re going to hear this beautiful pattern. We’re going to hear captivity, trust, deliverance, born of God over and over again, and that will be the foundation of his 20-year ministry. It will only be in the years that we have in these sections. He will be a prophet. His ministry will only last 20 years, so he could have been a 35 to 40-year-old man when this conversion happens. We don’t know, but it’s going to provide the foundation for the teachings that he is going to give all the rest of his life, and we’re going to see that beautiful pattern, trust, deliverance, born of God, out of captivity.

Hank Smith: 00:05:11 Oh, I love it. I’m really looking forward to this. John, now, Jenet has been here many times. We love having her on followHIM. She is delightful, fun. However, there might be a listener who has been under a rock for the last few years and is saying, “Who’s Jenet Erickson?” So John, give her an introduction.

John Bytheway: 00:05:32 Yeah, I was taking notes. We’re in the intros, Hank, and I’m taking notes. Captivity, trust, deliverance, born of God. That’s awesome. Dr. Jenet Jacob Erickson is an associate professor in religious education at BYU. She teaches the Eternal Family course. So excited to have her here today because there’s some real cool family stuff involved in here. And she and her husband Michael have been blessed with two children, they live in American Fork, Utah. We’re really happy to have you back. In fact, a couple of weeks ago I said, “Hank, good move for calling Jenet for these chapters because they’re good family chapters.” Like you just mentioned, the prayers of faithful parents that have meaning. I’m really glad you’re here.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:06:16 Oh, thank you

Hank Smith: 00:06:18 Jenet, let’s read from the Come, Follow Me Manual. This is really well written. It says, “After nearly three generations and living in separate lands, the Nephites were one people again. Limhi’s people, Alma’s people, Mosiah’s people. Even the people of Zarahemla who were not descended from Nephi were all numbered with the Nephites. Many of them also wanted to become members of the Lord’s church as Alma’s people had. So, all those who were desirous to take upon them the name of Christ were baptized and they were called the people of God,” which is the name of the lesson this week.

  00:06:47 “After years of conflict and captivity, it seemed that the Nephites would finally enjoy a period of peace.” Oh, how often have we been there in life? Oh, like finally it’s going to be great. “But before long unbelievers began to persecute the saints, what made this especially heartbreaking was that many of these unbelievers were the believers own children, the rising generation, including the sons of Mosiah and one son of Alma. The account tells of a miraculous visit of an angel. But the true miracle of this story is not just about angels appearing to wayward sons. Conversion is the miracle in one way or another, it needs to happen to all of us.” Oh, very good. Very good. Jenet, where do you want to go?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:07:33 I love that John referenced as we started this emotional conversation that happens here at the beginning of chapter 25.

John Bytheway: 00:07:41 Read the record of Zeniff and buckle up.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:07:44 Yeah, that’s so true. If we look at 7-11, you’re going to hear, here they’re all gathered, and King Mosiah says, and I love this about him, he says, “We have got to hear the history of these people.” And we will talk a little bit about why history matters, but you just hear what John referenced. And now when Mosiah had made an end of reading the records, his people who tarried in the land were struck with wonder and amazement, for they knew not what to think. When they beheld those that had been delivered out of bondage, they were filled with exceedingly great joy. And again, when they thought of their brethren who had been slain by the Lamanites, they were filled with sorrow and even shed many tears of sorrow. And again, when they thought of the immediate goodness of God in delivering Alma and his brethren, they did raise their voices and give thanks to God.

  00:08:31 And again, when they thought of the Lamanites, they were filled with pain and anguish. Isn’t this life? It’s this moment when you’re like, “If I looked back on my life and remembered the challenges and also the joys and the miracles and the amazement, and also the consequences and accountability that goes on,” he is appreciating the power of history here.

  00:08:56 And I don’t know if you have favorite historians, but I’ll never forget when David McCullough, the remarkable historian and writer of history came and spoke in the Tabernacle, and he talked about the importance of history. The lessons of history are manifold. Nothing happens in isolation. Everything that happens has consequences. We are all part of a larger stream of events, past, present, and future. Read history by all means, read history. Giving us a sense of proportion, our place in this grand story we’ll tell our children history is Christ, His story. It’s God’s dealings with his children.

  00:09:41 I love how you in talking about the allegory of Zenos, the powerful truth, watching the Lord’s work be done, even as he honors the agency and accountability, His will will be done. And when we see Christ, his story, we can develop a trust that His work amidst all the complexity will be done.

  00:10:04 I have one other little quote that I love from George Marshall, a speech that he gave at the end of World War Two that has to do with history. Again, the great General George Marshall. It’s 1947, and he says, “In order to take a full part in the life which is before you, I think you must in effect relive the past.” And it’s like Mosiah recognizes that. If we’re going to take full part in this life, we have to hear the history that has gone before us. A deep understanding of history is necessary, not merely recent history which concerns itself with trivia surrounding conspicuous men and events, but an understanding of that history which records the past activities of men, and leads to an understanding of what has created you and what has destroyed great civilizations. Emphasizing the power of knowing where we are in this story, the effects and consequences, understanding our place in it, and Mosiah seems to get that here.

Hank Smith: 00:11:09 Such a roller coaster. Verse eight, filled with joy. Verse nine, sorrow. Verse 10, joy. Verse 11, the pain and anguish like, “Ah, what a difficult day.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:11:22 He ends at this description in verse 11. They are still so deeply concerned about the Lamanites. And what I love is within just a couple of chapters here, the answer is going to come in the conversion of people who had been considered the vilest of sinners. And that they will be the catalyst, having been converted by Christ to participate in the work of salvation, which is always what happens when we’re converted. It’s a catalyst to becoming participants in that saving work. The answer is going to be soon, in a sense, that yearning for the Lamanites.

Hank Smith: 00:11:59 You mentioned Joe Spencer, who we’ve had on the show before. There’s a shift in perspective when you see the Book of Mormon as a story of redemption of the Lamanite people.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:12:10 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:12:11 Where you think the book’s about the Nephites, which it is. But in the background is this story of Lamanite falling away, coming back.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:12:19 I think Joe would say that Mormon’s project, it’s very powerful. Each book ends with a major political change. Here we have at the end of Mosiah a major political change going on. We’re going to see in the rise of the Lamanites, then we’re going to see the Gadianton robbers in Helaman. Then we’re going to see the coming of Christ in Third Nephi. And that these dramatic political changes are part of the political theology through which the Lord is bringing about his work. There was no way that the Lamanites could be converted, because to be converted when we had a kingdom, a Christian kingdom, a Nephite Christian kingdom was to become a Nephite.

  00:13:04 And then when we see this split of moving from the state, that religion becomes fully separate from the state. You watch how Alma refuses to be a king. He’s followed on the heels of the horrifying King Noah who stands in as a foil to King Benjamin, and Mormon it seems like is really clear in trying to show the differences between these two kings. And Alma is asked to be King by his people and he says no, he absolutely refuses. And then you see this full separation. The church must exist apart from the state apparatus, since they create, there’s not a reliance on the state. It’s their own covenant community that’s created. And then that is going to lead to the conversion of Lamanites, who to convert no longer means I have to become a Nephite. It means I become saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, a follower of Christ. I think Joe is right in seeing this beautiful plan that God has, including in the political process that then enables the conversion of these descendants, so it can fulfill its promise.

John Bytheway: 00:14:20 Fantastic. It was brilliant of King Mosiah to say, “Everybody gather. Now I want you to hear this.” Can you imagine how differently it was, “Oh, just put those, that new group that, just put them down on Zarahemla Street,” or whatever. But instead, imagine how uniting to hear this. You’ve been to testimony meetings like that where you’re sitting there and you’re filled with joy, and then you’re filled with sorrow, and then you’re filled with thanksgiving, and then you feel pain and anguish and you hear. When I was a bishop, every fast meeting I took notes on every testimony. I had no idea that I would use that for funerals sometimes of the people whose testimonies I recorded. It’s very uniting to hear everybody’s story and that was an inspired move, so that now we know where those people have been that are now trying to come together in this new group. Wards are like that. We’ve got people coming from different areas. Think of the early days of the church. Here come a bunch of migrants from England and let’s hear their stories, so we can become united in a church.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:15:27 As you were talking John, I was remembering the Steed family, that’s the Work and the Glory history that wonderful. Of course, when you go to Palmyra and you want to find out where did the Steeds live, where was their farm, right?

John Bytheway: 00:15:40 Where did the Steeds live?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:15:40 Where’s their farm? But there’s that beautiful music that was produced to tell the story, and it begins with a song that has the words, “Lord, how we thank thee for families. Seasons of sorrow and seasons of joy.” And that the story of the Great Family, here’s this family of Lehi and Sariah that are part, this important branch in the covenant family that have been split apart and the Lord has a story for their remarkable redemption, so that the seasons of sorrow will ultimately be turned to seasons of joy. That’s personal for our individual families. I know that to be true, however long it takes. And He’s telling us over and over again, “I have the power and the plan to redeem and restore this family.” The whole grand family as well as our individual families in our seasons of sorrow and our seasons of joy that He will ultimately make eternal joy, is the real assurance of the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith: 00:16:45 Jenet, if you don’t mind, let’s just stop here for a second. Our listeners are always on our minds. Everyone is going through difficulty of some sort, and if you’re not, you soon will be. And what you just said is so crucial. What would you say to a parent who is listening to this going, “I want to believe that. I want to believe that the Lord will redeem my family, make it whole again.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:17:09 Hank, this whole story as you watch a father plead for his children, his son to return, and you watch. There’s no question. I remember first reading this story as a younger person and thinking, “Where’s the mother? Had she died?” We don’t know all the reasons why scripture, The Book of Mormon obscures the presence of women, but there’s no question that that mother was yearning. I think about Elder Holland’s powerful statement about a mother yearning. He tells a story of the wonderful Preston Jenkins who had that terrible mission trauma and then experienced same-sex attraction, comes home from his mission and Elder Holland’s going to describe this mother, day and night for weeks, then for months that turned into years, this boy and his mother sought healing together through periods of bitterness, mostly his, but sometimes hers, and unending fear, mostly hers, but sometimes his.

  00:18:06 She bore, there’s that powerful burdensome word again, she bore to her son her testimony of God’s power, of his church, and especially his love for this child. In the same breath, she testified of her own uncompromised, undying love for him to bring together these two crucial pillars of her very existence, the gospel of Jesus Christ and her family. She poured out her soul in prayer endlessly and then he bears witness with the grace of God, her own tenacity and the help of scores of church leaders, friends, family members, professionals. This importuning mother has seen her son come home to the promised land. He says, “We acknowledge that such a blessing does not, or at least has not yet come to all parents who anguish over a wide variety of their children’s circumstances.” But here there was hope. Little by little, the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, and his determined, redemptive, absolutely saintly mother.

  00:19:20 And he bore witness. The Lord does hear our prayers. The promises are sure in our covenants. There is safety in our covenants. That power that draws them in is active and living and forceful. The Book of Mormon is like a 2,500 year story that he will hear our prayers. He will restore the line. Maybe the whole thing that we’re developing in this process is learning how to hold onto the hope of unfulfilled promises, and develop that godly capacity in ourselves. That’s who God is. He is ever seeing where we are not and where we will be, and he sees it with hope and absolute assurance that in his hands that can be brought to pass.

John Bytheway: 00:20:11 Well and in a book that if we take him literally could have been 53,000 pages long because they could not include a hundredth part, why would they include this if it wasn’t to give hope and healing? At least hope. If the healing isn’t there right now, there’s hope. Why did they include these stories here? Well, that’s a gift. And I’m always reminded of how easy it is to mess up Moses 1:39 and say, as a parent, “It’s my job and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of my children.” And actually Lord says, “Actually, that’s my work and I am able to do my work. I’m really good at it.” To be able to feel that hope is in the book, that’s why they’re here.

Hank Smith: 00:20:56 John, you brought up the one one-hundredth, yet this story of Alma the Younger we’re going to get twice in The Book of Mormon.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:21:03 Yeah. Amazing.

John Bytheway: 00:21:04 He’s going to tell his own sons later.

Hank Smith: 00:21:06 Yeah. One of the gifts, Jenet, that Joseph Smith gave us is obviously the book of Moses, and the God who weeps over his children. You don’t get that anywhere else that I’ve seen, but in Enoch, “How can you weep? Like, you’re God. Why are you weeping?” John, what does he say?

John Bytheway: 00:21:25 How is it that thou canst weep?

Hank Smith: 00:21:27 Yeah. What does the Lord respond with?

John Bytheway: 00:21:29 “These thy children, I created them. And the day I created them, I gave them their agency, and asked them to choose me their father. But behold, they are without affection and they hate their own blood.” Ouch. I mean, you read it and it hurts, but that tells us he’s not detached. He’s not unaffected by what happens to us. He’s interested in us and what happens to us, thankfully.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:21:54 Doesn’t it seem like it’s easy in the complexity of life to really wonder where is God? We might wonder in this story, this 2,500 year story, where is he? That allegory, right, that we have recently studied, Zenos’ allegory. You see this being is actively involved, and we’re going to see in this story, he will intervene. He honors agency, he honors accountability, but his will will be done. Jacob testifying, “In his mystery, God honors agency and accountability. And he will bring us where he needs to bring us. He will bring the world to the place it needs to be.” And I don’t know how he does it, but I think we can trust it. His whole testimony is going to be grounded in trust in God, trust in God, trust in his power to redeem.

John Bytheway: 00:22:45 And people very close to me need this today, people that I pray for. We want everybody to feel the same hope that we’re talking about and to say, “Hey, we have a heavenly Father and a Savior who is mighty to save. He knows what he’s doing.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:23:03 And that has to be why this story is told twice. It has to be to tell us, “I will redeem.” I can hear my mom last year and every family, this is the story of family, the complexity of family life, the complexity of these journeys, but she describes aching. And here I want my parents to be resting in their retirement, but God is very efficient in using mortality and she describes getting up out of bed and pleading, “Where are the promises? Remember these covenants that I’ve made and where are the promises, the assurances?” And into her mind she was told, “Think on your covenants. In your covenants lies your safety.” And then, she sat up on her bed and reflected on the promises of the initiatory blessings, the promise of beginning with the baptism, the Holy Ghost, the initiatory, the endowment, and was filled with joy. He will keep his promises, his covenants. General conference, what do we hear a hundred thousand times? In your covenants, in your covenants is power and strength, and it’s infinite in its power to redeem.

Hank Smith: 00:24:12 A couple of weeks ago, Dr. Bowen was here and he said, “The Lord is playing 5D chess. He is moving pieces-“

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:24:20 Yes,

Hank Smith: 00:24:21 “… In ways you can’t understand. You see 2D or 3D. My ways are not your ways.” Right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:24:29 There’s nothing we can do that he has not already taken into account and that’s our children. That’s all of us. We can trust him. That’s maybe the bigger question, rather than when will they come back? The Lord’s saying, “Trust me.”

John Bytheway: 00:24:44 Who is it that says, “They were his long before they were yours.” Is it the Orson Whitney quotation?

Hank Smith: 00:24:49 I frequently tell parents or friends of someone who they’re like, “Oh, I wish I could bring them back, bring them back.” I use a little analogy. I’ll say, “Just remember who the assistant is. The Lord is the surgeon. You are the assistant. If you swap places and say, ‘Lord, assist me in this work’, he’s going to say, ‘well, go ahead. I’ll have to fix pretty much everything you do after you do it.'” I’ve seen people go, “Oh yeah, I am his assistant.” Just wait for him. He’ll tell you what to do. He’ll say scalpel and you give him a scalpel, but don’t switch places with him. Don’t start thinking, “I’m the surgeon. The Lord is going to assist me.” You’re going to get it backwards and you’re going to make a difficult thing even more difficult.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:25:37 Yeah, that’s powerful Hank. And it feels like we’re going to learn from Alma the Elder what that looks like to allow the Lord to be the surgeon, and maybe the assistant, and the joy that it brings as we allow his miracles to happen.

Hank Smith: 00:25:51 Let’s jump back in Jenet. Thanks for taking that pause. John, you and I talk frequently that we’re always thinking about our listeners. We couldn’t do this if it wasn’t for those who put up with us.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:26:03 I love that and I feel that from you both. Thank you for being that way. That’s how the podcast is.

Hank Smith: 00:26:09 Where should we go, Jenet.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:26:11 We’re going to get to this whole remarkable king Mosiah who then is encountering Alma. Alma, who refused to be a king, he’s in this country with a king and was called by God to establish a church, and what is Mosiah going to do with this? And what you see is we have to recognize that King Benjamin, the remarkable King Benjamin, and Mosiah is going to tell us in 29 when you discuss this next week, that if you had a righteous king, it would be wonderful like Benjamin. But we saw in Noah that’s not always possible. What we’re going to hear is the covenant that King Benjamin was able to have an entire nation make. Like wow, all of them entered into that covenant. Yet, it did not have trans-generational stability. That rising generation did not participate in the covenant. Joe Spencer would write, “We will learn that the church fares best when pursued and perpetuated as an institution fully independent of the state and its interests. The Christian Church prevails rather than the Christian kingdom. Which is remarkable.”

  00:27:20 What we find out is in the covenant, the church establishes for them under Alma, there is not a state apparatus in the covenant. They carry one another. The reliance isn’t on the state. A new community is created out of covenant. They weave together a community through covenant. Mosiah recognizes this is fundamental, so the church must be established with teachers and priests. It must be established here in Zarahemla. It’s really interesting just now we’re having this recognition that an increase in the United States in terms of people not affiliating with the church. What has it meant? What does it mean? What are the challenges? And you actually see in our most elite writing, the Atlantic an article just a week ago talking about, this is written by an agnostic, the risks that society faces when we are not connected to churches because nothing is as powerful in building community.

  00:28:21 There’s nothing that society has to replace what happens when we are knit together in religious conviction. And it’s why there’s beaucoup data, Tyler Vanderwill at the Harvard Human Flourishing Center, he’s super gifted scholar, but he’ll show through very sophisticated means what the implications of religion are in people’s lives and they’re remarkable. Improvement in well-being, improvement in lifespan, improvement in health. There’s really nothing to compare other than the family itself with its impact on development than religion. And yet, he’ll distinguish spiritual from actual participation in a religious community. And spiritual is powerful. When we align ourselves with something higher than ourselves, whatever form that takes in our lives, it’s a powerful gift. But the positive impact are magnified multiple fold when you are part of religious community. There’s something about the power of religion within that community and these smaller communities of wards where we are bound together that I think Mosiah is recognizing God has brought to us, and we need this in our community. We need this in our nation.

Hank Smith: 00:29:39 I wrote a book on happiness. It sold dozens of copies.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:29:43 We are so grateful for your books by the way.

Hank Smith: 00:29:46 But one thing I learned is something very similar to what you just said, Jenet, that happiness and social circle are almost twins and that ward family creates a social circle.

John Bytheway: 00:30:00 I feel, and I hope this is true, that people, after COVID when we started to gather together again, I hope that people went, “Oh, this is so nice to see everybody. Hi. Hi.” Every other bench, however we did that. But I hope they felt, “Oh, I think I get why we need to gather.” Because I did. I thought, “This is so nice.” We lift and help each other. I remember seeing a headline that said, “Society benefits when people believe they are accountable to God.” I didn’t read the story, the headline was so good. All of society benefits. But when we gather, I don’t know if we’re accountable to each other, but we sure do help and support each other. By experience, I’ve needed that help and support in my ward neighborhood. I love that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:30:48 It is interesting. I think we rightly recognize the power of the Atonement as a personal power of salvation and exaltation, but it’s also a communal power. Throughout the Book of Mormon, we’re seeing the Lord save nations and peoples, which are really families, they’re family lines that are being saved. And that the Atonement is not just an individual force, but it is a national, it’s a people. It’s a community. When we watch Alma ask his people if they want to be baptized. And the question he asked them, “Do you want to mourn with those that mourn, and are you willing to do this?” Then he’s clarifying, yes, the bond … In President Nelson’s quoted words from recent general conference is both lateral, it’s this horizontal direction, and it’s vertical, and that covenants with God establish bonds with one another that are saving bonds. They’re redemptive powerful bonds. So I think that’s what you’re hearing in church. Right? In our ward families.

Hank Smith: 00:31:56 Jenet, maybe the predominant message or the loud message we’re getting that religion is bad, that it causes all sorts of problems, you’re saying the research, the data is opposite.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:32:11 I cannot tell you that enough. It is exactly opposite. Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t individuals in religious institutions that are suffering and that religion can be a source of pain in people’s lives. That can be true as well. But when we look broadly sociologically, the benefit of religion in people’s lives is unparalleled. Second only to, I should say family like the closeness of family bonds. There’s no replacement for us in society that can replace the impact of religion.

John Bytheway: 00:32:44 I hope our young adult listeners are hearing this. Don’t listen to the chatter, listen to the data. We’re talking to Dr. Erickson here who knows the data. And the chatter and the noise out there might say something different. This is why I love having you on, because you know stuff about families from the data.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:33:04 I’m grateful for good scientists. You do not get a better scientist than Tyler Vanderwill. And the methodologies that are used to establish, does it actually have a causal effect? Is this just a link that’s correlative or is it causation? And he can establish a causative relationship between religious affiliation and benefits in life in all the dimensions of well-being. It’s very real.

Hank Smith: 00:33:29 I love it. We’re going to keep tapping into your knowledge here, Jenet. So we’re still in 25. We’ve been here a little bit. Let’s keep going.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:33:39 Do you love that in 25:15, we’re going to get this said about Alma. He went preaching to these groups of people preaching, repentance and faith on the Lord. And we’re going to hear when he first organized the church way back in Mosiah chapter 18, we’re going to hear that he preached repentance and faith in the Lord.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:34:00 And he’s going to tell those that he calls to be priesthood keys, those he calls to have teaching responsibilities, they will preach nothing but repentance and faith on the Lord. The next thing that’s going to happen, of course, is they will be baptized. And Limhi’s people had heard about baptism. They knew it way back when King Noah left. And Limhi comes in and Ammon comes from the people of Zarahemla and they hear about baptism and they want to be baptized. And Ammon says, “We’re going to have to wait.” And it’s so beautiful that now is the time when those people of Limhi who had experienced all that difficulty, the destruction, and then miraculously being brought out of that land of Nehemiah into Zarahemla, can now be baptized.

  00:34:47 We’re going to see the doctrine of Christ laid out beautifully, faith, repentance, baptism, joining the church, becoming part of this covenant relationship with Christ and with one another and the blessings of the gift of the Holy Ghost. You’re just going to see all that laid out really beautifully in the teachings in Chapter 25 that Mosiah is giving to these groups of church members. Can you hear Elder Renlund from this last conference talk about spiritual momentum is created, and he’s quoting President Nelson, over a lifetime as we repeatedly embrace the doctrine of Christ, this spiraling that happens in our lives as we over and over again repent, exercise faith, faith, repent, renew our covenant with the Lord, and are changed by the power of the Holy Ghost?

  00:35:39 Alma gets it. That’s what he’s telling us. He’s saying the same thing President Nelson’s saying. He’s saying what Elder Renlund’s saying when he quotes President Nelson that this process is a beautiful spiral through which we are transformed over time, faith, repentance, renewing that covenant, receiving the power of the Holy Ghost in our lives.

John Bytheway: 00:36:01 I am struck again that in verse five, Mosiah did cause to be read, “Okay, let’s hear from Zeniff and his people.” And then verse 14. Now, Mosiah had made an end of the speaking and reading to the people. He desired Alma should speak to the people. Now, I want you to hear from Alma. And I love this, that Mosiah could have said, “I’ve prepared a talk,” but he’s like, “No, no, no. Listen, now you tell him what happened to you.” Such cool deliverance stories. And then in verse 16, he did exhort the people of Limhi and his brethren, all those that had been delivered out of bondage, that they should remember that it was the Lord that did deliver them.

  00:36:37 So I put in my margin, “Who is the deliverer?” And I’m thinking of the New Testament. Let’s create some feasts so that they will not forget. Okay, we’ll call this one Passover. We’ll do that every year. We’ll call this one Tabernacles so that you’ll remember what you lived in when the Lord delivered you. And it’s that constant challenge we need to remember who our deliverer is, who our Redeemer is. I always underline those. Now, are you guys going to remember this because usually two or three pages later somebody forgets, right?

Hank Smith: 00:37:07 Yeah. It’s just so fast.

John Bytheway: 00:37:09 This will take exactly five paragraphs before they forget.

Hank Smith: 00:37:12 Right.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:37:13 That verse is so important. We have to come back to it because this is going to be the whole theme of Alma’s ministry is deliverance. And it’s going to start first with Abinadi, it’s going to go to Alma, his father, and it’s going to be transformed in really beautiful and powerful ways in Alma the Younger. You are exactly right. This is the theme of the Book of Mormon captured here. Alma the Younger is going to be our great teacher of that taking it from his father.

Hank Smith: 00:37:38 The text doesn’t say this, but Limhi is the son of Noah, right, John?

John Bytheway: 00:37:42 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:37:43 And I’m assuming that Limhi was alive for a lot of his father’s ministry. That means he might have seen Alma as one of the wicked priests.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:37:56 How interesting. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:37:57 How do they relate to each other?

Hank Smith: 00:37:59 Yeah, here we are.

John Bytheway: 00:38:01 Okay, Limhi, listen up. Alma’s going to say something. You need to hear this.

Hank Smith: 00:38:05 Yeah. And Limhi’s going, “Wow.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:08 Yes. That is amazing.

Hank Smith: 00:38:09 This is surreal, right? That he is up there teaching.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:14 No wonder there’s that sorrowing, rejoicing. They’re struck by amazement, including Limhi, like, “Wow.”

Hank Smith: 00:38:20 Yeah. That guy, I knew him.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:24 I knew him.

Hank Smith: 00:38:25 Yeah. He was not that when I knew him.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:29 Now, I don’t think we can leave this doctrine of Christ chapter without looking at verse 23, and it’s going to talk about the seven churches that are established by Alma. It references a very important part of this, “To take upon them the name of Christ,” or of God. You’re never going to hear this beautiful doctrine of Christ without taking upon us his name, which I think is capturing the covenant relationship that’s established with God in this doctrine of Christ, that it’s really establishing that relationship through which conversion and change can take place. All of these things are really important, faith, repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost.

  00:39:12 They happen within relationship, a relationship that’s established by covenant connection. It’s such a beautiful relationship that the Lord endows us with his name. That’s how close he wants to be with us, that we are his as if we were his own in his own household or in his own embrace, in his own family. Right off, we’re going to hear development happens from within relationship. That’s absolutely true in family life. Development spiritually happens from within covenant relationship. Taking upon us his name is the language of covenant relationship that allows the doctrine of Christ to do its beautiful work in our lives. Now we get to 26 and it’s painful. It’s the painful part.

John Bytheway: 00:40:00 I like starting in verse 21. How are we going to organize all these new people that want to believe, it sounds, Hank, like Alma baptizes Limhi?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:40:06 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:40:08 That’s interesting.

Hank Smith: 00:40:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:40:10 Hey, will you baptize me? Wow. I love verse 21, “They did assemble themselves together in different bodies being called churches.” Now, have you heard this word before? The word does come up before, but he’s explaining it. “Every priest preaching the word according as it was delivered to him by the mouth of Alma. Thus, notwithstanding there being many churches, they were all one church, yea, even the church of God.”

  00:40:32 There was nothing preached in all the churches except it were, here we go again, repentance and faith in God. Doctrine of Christ. Now, there were seven churches in the land of Zarahemla. I just like the idea of I have in my margin one church, many meeting houses. I like that he’s explaining, “We are one church, but we are many.” These communities are going to meet in smaller groups all over the place, but there’s one church.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:40:55 John, you referenced, so importantly, that priesthood keys that are included here that allow for that oneness, that allow for covenant relationship to be established and allow for that correlation to happen. It happens through priesthood keys. Beautiful that we see that here.

John Bytheway: 00:41:14 Sheri Dew, it wasn’t her that said it. She was at a training. One of the visiting authorities said, “Satan will do everything he can to separate you from priesthood keys.” And I thought, “How interesting, as we’ve talked about covenants in the church and their importance.” If somebody’s trying to separate you from priesthood keys, I hope you see who’s behind that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:41:38 Wow. That’s powerful. It is the way whereby Christ is accessed through those priesthood keys that opens the channel, yes, through which covenants can be established.

John Bytheway: 00:41:50 How cool was that to have President Nelson talk about keys and Kirtland?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:41:55 Yep. Temples, covenants, oh yes.

John Bytheway: 00:41:58 Yeah, it was fun. I went to my classes. What was conference about? They’re all temples. Yeah, I got that impression too.

Hank Smith: 00:42:08 I think of the 1830 church and it’s kind of like a ward, and then we keep making these little 1830 churches all over.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:42:16 With 24-year-old bishops and 22-year-old bishops, right?

Hank Smith: 00:42:18 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:42:19 Yeah. In that early church.

Hank Smith: 00:42:22 John, you mentioned one church, many meeting houses. I’ve loved hearing from those who listen to our show all over the world.

John Bytheway: 00:42:32 It’s surprising, the different countries. Where were people listening? Kuwait? Didn’t we hear that last week, Hank? Kuwait. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:42:40 India. Come on to YouTube, tell us who you are, and where you’re listening from. We would love to see the many churches, but one church. It’d be fun for you to see that, Jenet, all those who hear this.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:42:54 Yes. And all of us doing the same sections of scripture together. It’s like, wow.

John Bytheway: 00:42:59 How cool is that?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:43:00 Yeah. Chapter 26 is where it gets a little hard because we’ve had the joy of the church being established and the miracle of the Holy Ghost being poured out on these newly baptized members and all organized under teachers that teach them the doctrine of Christ. And then it says, “We had a rising generation that could not understand, did not believe, rejected the doctrine of Christ, and are trying to destroy the church.” It’s a really tough issue because we’re trying to figure out the church and the state in a sense because we still have a king who was the leader of the church in a sense, so now who’s responsible for this? And we see that there’s sin going on.

  00:43:41 It appears that those who are rejecting Christ are rejecting commandments and are rejecting accountability and the Resurrection and all of that. It says in verse six, “They did cause members of the church to commit many sins. Therefore, it became expedient that those who committed sin were admonished by the church.” The priests bring these people to Alma and Alma’s like, “I don’t know what to do. Aren’t we part of a kingdom still that would handle these wrongdoings?”

John Bytheway: 00:44:13 Takes him to Mosiah, “Here, take this.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:44:14 Takes him to Mosiah. Yes. And Mosiah says in verse 12, “I judge them not. This doesn’t have to do with the state, Alma, it has to do with the church. I deliver them into thy hands.” And I love that verse 13 where it says, “And now the spirit of Alma was again troubled.” Who is this man? He’s been given this huge responsibility. He’s in a sense the Joseph who’s asked to restore the church and establish the church.

John Bytheway: 00:44:44 Alma’s in this place, verse 10, “There had not any such thing happened before in the church.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:44:48 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:44:49 I’m looking through the handbook on this. I can’t find this. What do I do?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:44:55 It says in verse 13, he feared that he should do wrong. You might remember this, Hank, when President Nelson came and gave a devotional at BYU 2019 and he was super open about the challenge of the policy around the children of LGBTQ parents. And it was so tender to hear him say, “Whenever the sons and daughters of God weep, for whatever reason, we weep.”

  00:45:20 So our supplications to the Lord on this issue continued. And I could hear in Alma and our dear President Nelson, that same yearning of prophets. They are suffering. I don’t want to do wrong. Help me know what to do. We get the very first prophet revelation written down in the Book of Mormon right here this in answer to question. Alma.

John Bytheway: 00:45:44 Yeah. This is the beginning of his Book of Commandments. I put in my margin.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:45:49 Here’s the Book of Commandments.

John Bytheway: 00:45:50 Here’s section one for Alma, right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:45:54 Yeah. So beautiful. It’s going to say in verse 14, “He pours out his whole soul to God.” There’s a wonderful scholar who writes about Enos describing that same thing, pouring out his soul to God. And the word is kenosis. It’s a Greek word that captures this emptying out of power that then produces power in a religious sense.

  00:46:18 And you can just hear this when we are called upon to offer our all to God in covenant relationship. Then not holding anything back, it opens the door to power. And that’s what we see in Alma. So we see the beautiful verses. Hank, do you mind reading 15?

Hank Smith: 00:46:38 Mosiah 26 verse 15, “Blessed art thou, Alma, and blessed are they who were baptized in the waters of Mormon. Thou art blessed because of thy exceeding faith in the words alone of my servant Abinadi.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:46:52 How beautiful. And then do you see blessed again?

Hank Smith: 00:46:56 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:46:57 Blessed art thou and blessed are they and blessed art thou. Yea, blessed is this people. And the Lord is telling him, “You are so beloved. Thank you for all you’ve done. Thank you for what you’ve done for the people. Thank you for establishing the church and they will be blessed for bearing my name, being part of this covenant relationship.”

Hank Smith: 00:47:19 He needs a boost, doesn’t he?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:47:21 He needs a boost. Yes. The next part is really interesting because he’s asking what to do. The Lord says, “Blessed are you for asking about what to do for the transgressor.” And you can hear it in the Lord himself, “I care about these people. Thank you for asking me about them. Thank you for seeking help in what to do.” He’s going to talk to Alma about gathering them as a shepherd does a sheep. And you’re going to hear Alma say, his son, say that again in Alma five. It’s like he’s quoting his father’s Book of Commandments revelation and he’ll talk about gathering as a sheep. But then what the Lord’s going to do to him is he’s going to take him past the immediate question and he’s going to take him to the end of time. It’s really interesting. Joe will call this term eschaton.

  00:48:13 It’s a Greek term that focuses on the final event in the divine plan. Here’s this Alma, he’s like this big question, “What do I do right now?” And the Lord takes him to the end of time and he says, “If they know me, they shall come forth,” this is verse 24, “and they shall have a place eternally at my right hand… that when the second trump shall sound”, if they knew me, they shall come stand forth. And those that didn’t know me, they will know that I am the Lord their God. So he’s going to take him to the end of time. It’s as if he’s telling him, “Alma, I am the final judge. I will do that. You don’t have to worry. I will do the judging. This whole end thing that you’re worried about, am I going to be condemning people? Am I going to be doing something wrong in this? I will do the judging. Don’t you worry about that.”

  00:49:04 And then he’s going to say, “This is what you need to worry about now.” And that’s when he’s going to give him his beautiful answer, verse 28, “He that will not hear my voice the same you will not receive into the church if this is a person who does not want me to be their Redeemer.” And then he describes that you will judge according to the sins which have been committed, and he’s going to use these two words over and over again, teaching him about repentance and forgiveness, forgiveness and repentance. When people repent, we forgive. He that forgiveth not, will have the same condemnation. So the Lord is going to be teaching Alma about repentance and forgiveness. He’s taken him to the end of the time, “I am the final judge.”

  00:49:49 Then he brings him back to the present and says, “These are the truths about repentance and forgiveness. We forgive. I forgive any and all whenever they repent. You should also forgive.” But then he’s going to say something powerful, and it’s really getting to this idea that the Lord will protect his church. He will need to protect this covenant community. It has to be a stable and protected community. Elder Oaks explained so powerfully the objective of church discipline because that’s really what Alma is asking about, “How do we respond?” The objective of church discipline is to facilitate repentance, what President Oaks says. And at the same time protect the flock and preserve the good name and influence of the church.

  00:50:40 You hear in Alma’s answer, the Lord is saying, “There are boundaries around this. There are some who will be, in a sense, blotted out who have rejected and refuse and are causing harm. I will protect this church. I will protect its purposes in the lives of people.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:51:00 He’s going to teach Alma how to do that, recognizing the whole purpose is to draw people back in. Those that have sinned, to draw them back in, to forgive and invite repentance, but I will protect my church and there is a boundary around it to facilitate all that is needed in this covenant community.

John Bytheway: 00:51:21 Towards the end of the year when we get to Moroni 6 and he talks about this is how we ran the church, it’s nine verses, Moroni 6, and he has the last part. If some was found to commit transgression and they repented not… It sounds very much like this. Maybe he drew from this. I also wanted to emphasize those two words, will not. What’s the difference between will not and cannot in verse 28? It’s not those that cannot hear my voice, but those that will not, that they refuse to hear. Oh yeah, that’s a good point. And speaking of will not believe, it’s really interesting at the beginning when this rising generation as it mentions, starts to go a different direction, it says in verse three, “Now because of their unbelief, they could not understand.”

  00:52:10 And most of us would think, “Isn’t that the other way around? I don’t understand this, so I don’t believe it.” No, it’s because of their unbelief. They could not understand. We’re told to doubt not, but be believing. We’re a believing people. Our articles of faith, all but one start, we believe. I’m reminded of President Packer who said once that, “In the world, seeing is believing. But in the gospel, believing is seeing.” It’s the faith precedes the miracle thing. We’re also taught that in Polar Express, but I didn’t think I’d mention that. That’s interesting that their unbelief made them so they couldn’t understand.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:52:52 It’s so interesting in the department to have these remarkable historians who know all the facts about church history and they’ll talk about what it’s like to engage with people who have questions about things. So often what we might experience as a question is really what’s presenting from a deeper question about trust. So often something has felt violated or betrayed. There’s been an emotional experience that then we’re asking the question seemingly focused on some aspect of church history or something like that, but really it’s belying what’s underneath which is, “I don’t know if I can believe, I don’t believe this, I can’t even hear what some historian might say is accurate facts because what’s really at the core is I don’t trust.” Some have reasons, having been betrayed in some way or a trust that felt like it was not fulfilled in some way. But really at the core so often is trust or belief.

John Bytheway: 00:53:49 32 chapters from now, in Alma when he is talking to the Zoramites and he used the best phrase, I love it, “Will ye give place that the word might be planted in your heart?” Would you open up enough belief to see what this does? Maybe that’s what that is. They didn’t give place so therefore they couldn’t understand the word of God and that’s an act of faith to give place and that’s what he was asking them to. I’m going to tell you something that based on what your prayer on the Rameumptom just said, you don’t believe. “But don’t cast it out. Give place and see what happens.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:54:26 Yeah, that is powerful.

Hank Smith: 00:54:28 I feel for Alma in this chapter. I think of any church leader, a bishop, a stake president or Relief Society president, a Young Women president thinking, “I don’t want to mess this up. These are souls. What if I do something and ruin it? What if I personally take down the entire church?”

John Bytheway: 00:54:48 Yeah, right, “there go the pyramids”.

Hank Smith: 00:54:50 The Lord’s response that you showed us Jenet is listen, “This is my church. I am doing this.” He says in verse 23, “It is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world.” Alma, you didn’t do that. I created them. “I grant… unto the end, a place at my right hand”. Hey Alma, you are doing a great work, but just remember who’s in charge. And maybe a bishop or Relief Society president needs to hear that, that hey.

John Bytheway: 00:55:17 This is so reassuring. I’ve got the pronoun circled, verse 22, “This is my church” and then “him will I freely forgive. It is I that taketh upon me the sins of the world. It is I that hath created them. It is I that granteth unto them that believeth unto the end a place at my right hand.” And I was texting our dear friend Sheri Dew this morning going, “I’m trying to remember this story about President Hinckley being assured, this isn’t your church. This is my church.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:55:45 The Lord keeps saying, “I will do my work. This is my work. I will do the redeeming.”

Hank Smith: 00:55:51 I love you. You’re doing great.

John Bytheway: 00:55:53 This is my leather-bound copy.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:55:56 Oh, that’s a special copy, John.

Hank Smith: 00:55:58 John, it must be nice to read a book and then go. I’ll just text the author, right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:56:03 Yeah, totally.

John Bytheway: 00:56:05 Who knows more about President Hinckley? Well, I’ll text a biographer because usually we’re texting about BYU sports. There was a time when President Hinckley was called to the first presidency as an additional counselor and Sheri said, “He used to say, ‘I’m not the third counselor, I’m an additional counselor or assistant counselor.'” The other members of the first presidency were ill and President Hinckley was shouldering a lot of the load of the church, so listen to this. This is quoting. “President Hinckley was faithful to the scope and limits of his stewardship forwarding many matters to the 12 where he was unwilling to move ahead on decisions of any magnitude without the full support of his brethren. Nonetheless, at times the load he carried seemed overwhelming.”

  00:56:52 “One day when faced with an unusually difficult situation for which there appeared to be no resolution, he dropped to his knees to petition the Lord’s help. He later related what took place. ‘There came into my mind the words, be still and know that I am God. I knew again that this was his work, that he would not let it fail and that all I had to do was work at it and do my best and that the work would move forward.’ ” It’s okay. This is not your church. This is my church and I’ve got this. These verses remind me of what you said earlier, Hank, that this is my church, that you are not the surgeon, you are the assistant.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:57:35 I love that you emphasize that, John, because later when his own son is lying unconscious for three days, he gathers the people and his whole thing is I want you to see what the Lord has done. He deeply internalizes that message. It is God who is doing this work in the most personal aspects of his life, Alma the Elder’s life, his children, and also doing the work in his sphere as the prophet of the church. Beautiful how he internalizes that message and you see and bear witness of it to others.

  00:58:08 Isn’t it a miracle that after he receives this revelation, this instruction and the Lord tells him go forth, it says, “It came to pass” in verse 37, “that Alma did regulate all the affairs of the church according to this revelation and they began again to have peace and to prosper exceedingly in the affairs of the church.” Then you hear these remarkable leaders walking in all diligence, teaching the word of God, suffering affliction, going forward, trusting the Lord in the work of His church. And it brings about goodness, it brings about the prosperity of the people.

Hank Smith: 00:58:45 Jenet, as I’ve looked at this chapter, I’ve thought no matter what Alma does at this point, someone’s going to be unhappy and isn’t that pretty common in leadership? Look, I’m deciding who to make mad. How do we help members realize that leaders are in a hard spot?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:59:08 I know when I have been in the presence of leaders, I’ve had some interesting interactions about difficult things and it is so humbling to me to witness their earnestness to do whatever the Lord wants. They truly have to lose any sense of I need validation from others. They have to leave that space of my decisions are going to be based on validation. I’ve heard Sister Beck describe it beautifully. It’s like, where are you facing? Are you facing outward or are you facing upward? Which direction are you facing? And to see the earnestness to know and carry out the will of God regardless of what it might mean for how they are spoken of or how popular they are and you can see they cannot do otherwise. They cannot do otherwise because He is their leader. He’s the one to whom they must respond and I think with it is this assurance as we see in Alma. If we do that, good will follow. It’s the only path to take that’s sure.

Hank Smith: 01:00:16 It’s difficult but it also sounds freeing that you can say, “I’m putting all that aside. I’m going to get my message. I’m going to give it. Come what may and love it.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:00:26 Yeah. Yes, yes. Elder Wirthlin.

Hank Smith: 01:00:27 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:00:30 I have presided over some membership councils and the song going through my mind all night long, “Who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly?” I remember one time kneeling down with my counselors and the handbook says, “You have to decide.” And then you ask your counselors what they think. I felt something lighter than I thought. I think disfellowship… I don’t think ex… on this one and right when I said it, I heard the words. That’s right, bishop, just as clear as somebody was right there. That’s right, bishop. I was like, “Wow.”

Hank Smith: 01:01:15 Thank you. Thank you.

John Bytheway: 01:01:16 This is not your church, John. This is mine. I got this. That’s right, bishop. And it was the clearest thing I’ve ever heard.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:01:27 John, that is so beautiful because I think that’s exactly what Alma is in this place of. This isn’t about punishing. It is preserving the church, but it is this… I love how President Oaks says in that quote that I just referenced, he says, “The principal purpose is not to punish the transgressor. In fact, that isn’t what the church does. It isn’t punishing but to aid his repentance and save his soul and who can know that but God through the power of the Spirit what needs to be done.” That’s what Alma is learning. This is not a state run operation. This is revelatory church broken apart from the state, receiving direction about how to help a soul repent and how to protect the integrity of the church.

John Bytheway: 01:02:17 And I keep thinking of Doctrine and Covenants here and Section 64, those sections in there. “I, the Lord, forgive sins.” It’s like that’s what I do. Boy, you guys mess up a lot, but I, the Lord forgive sins as you’re trying to figure all this out.

Hank Smith: 01:02:33 And be gentle with your leaders, everyone out there. They’re not perfect. They’re in a tough spot, so be gentle, be kind, be merciful the same way you would hope someone would judge you.

John Bytheway: 01:02:48 We’re talking about these people joining the church, but I love the way it’s put in verse 18. “Blessed is this people who are willing to bear my name.” Listen to the sacrament prayer. “Willing to take upon them the name of thy son.” None of us are able, but we can be willing. We can try because we’re going to stumble for in my name shall they be called. And I love the Lord says, “And they are mine.”

  01:03:13 I think about when I went to get my scriptures embossed before my mission. You can put your name on your scriptures. I had the whole conversation. “Is that really your name?” “Yeah. B-Y-T-H-E. Yeah, just put it on there.” And what does that say? It says the scriptures are mine. When I see people who are willing to bear the name of the Savior and sometimes in literal ways putting on the name tag, I think of this verse, they’re mine. The Lord loves us for that. I think that when we go to sacrament meeting, don’t you feel this? I’m not only willing to take upon me the name of Christ, I’m honored, I’m humbled, I’m thrilled to take upon me the name. What other name would you rather have? What a great thing that is to be able to do that every week.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:59 Yeah. It’s covenant language. I think whenever we hear that bearing name, I remember hearing about President Oaks’ call to be an apostle. That calling as an apostle is to bear witness of the name of Christ throughout the world. And he launched into this study of what does it mean, what is this reference to the name of Christ. And ended up writing a little book that I think didn’t get shared widely but with these profound insights about the name referencing the authority of God, referencing His power to redeem, referencing His ultimate power.

  01:04:33 But hearing you describe that, I was reminded of Emily Belle Freeman one time describing, sitting in sacrament meeting partaking of the sacrament and thinking of all the names that the name of Christ brought with it, Redeemer, Savior, Comforter. All these names that say, “He has made it possible for me to receive the power of that name in all of its meanings.” And it’s no end. There’s no end to the power of the name of Christ. So beautiful. Be willing to bear that and receive the gifts that come with it.

John Bytheway: 01:05:09 Coming up in part two of this episode.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:05:13 My children are a reflection of me, my skills, my capacities. Their goodness is an evidence of my goodness and their failure, it’s so human of us as parents to be like, “Their failure is an indication of my failure.”