John Bytheway: 00:00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Ryan Sharp, Mosiah chapters 11 through 17.

Hank Smith: 00:00:07 What a fantastic way to look at the overall picture of these chapters. Should we hone in now on some specific pieces, zoom in at what you want to see specifically in this story?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:00:20 Absolutely. I appreciate it, especially now getting into the actual words of Abinadi, the teachings of Abinadi, his discourse, what he says to the priests and to Noah. Elder McConkie once said, “Our understanding of the prophetic word will be greatly expanded if we know how one prophet quotes another, usually without acknowledging his source.” From a biblical study’s perspective, this is called intertextuality. If I were to give a talk or give a lesson, and I wanted to make a point, but I wanted to make sure there was authority with that point that I was making, what would I do? Well, I would probably find a quote from the prophet or a scripture.

  00:01:00 Writers of scripture did the exact same thing. They would draw upon the writings of previous prophets. We know that later, writers of the Book of Mormon had many of these messages. In Alma 63:12, it says, “And now behold all those engravings which were in the possession of Helaman were written and sent forth among the children of men throughout all the land.” What I want to look at now for this kind of second half is not just the legacy of Abinadi, the man, and his impact on Alma and what we talked about there, really the eternal legacy that he passed along there, but I want to look at the legacy of his words and his teachings throughout the rest of the Book of Mormon. Here, I’m going to draw on the incredible work of our friend and colleague Dr. John Hilton III, who makes an incredibly compelling case that many of the later writers in the Book of Mormon are pretty clearly borrowing from the teachings of Abinadi.

  00:02:01 Here are a few examples. Alma the Younger, think for a second, why would Alma maybe feel an affinity for the writings of Abinadi? There are some unique phrases that show up. For example, in Alma 12, “All mankind became a lost and a fallen people.” This is almost word for word drawing uniquely from the writings of Abinadi. These lines that I’m giving you, these aren’t just common phrases that show up all over in the Book of Mormon. They show up one or two times, and it’s this link between Abinadi and these later writers. Listen to this one in Alma 12, “Raised from this mortality to a state of immortality being brought before the bar of God to be judged according to our works,” almost word for word what Abinadi says in Mosiah 16.

  00:02:48 We also have Amulek. Amulek is connected to Alma, who was connected obviously to his father Alma, who was converted by the teachings of Abinadi. You get unique phrases like, “As though there was no redemption made, or loosing the bands of death.” These are unique phrases that connect Abinadi and Mormon. Think of Mormon who has access to all of these writings on all of these plates. He’s going to draw heavily from Abinadi saying things like, “Christ breaketh the bands of death. The grave shall have no victory. The sting of death swallowed up.” Later in 3 Nephi 26, what I’m about to read, this entire statement is verbatim Mosiah 16:10. So, it says in 3 Nephi 26, “All will stand before God to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life, and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation.”

  00:03:49 Because of the number of words there and the copy and paste, there’s clearly this connection between Abinadi and Mormon. One of the places that we find the most textual relationships between Abinadi and a later writer is going to be Alma the younger, specifically when Alma is speaking to his son Corianton. Think about that for a second. Alma is trying to figure out, “How do I deal with this son who has committed some pretty serious sins? How do I do that?” Well, how did Abinadi do that when he was speaking to a people who were living in sin? You’d find several examples like standards of testimony against you at the last day. That’s Alma 38:8, the trifecta of carnal, sensual, and devilish. This is taken from Mosiah 16. “Were it not for the redemption,” again, this is a unique word that shows up in Abinadi, and now Alma speaking to his son Corianton.

  00:04:49 Maybe just one more. There are over 20 different textual connections between Abinadi and the writings of King Benjamin, phrases like, “An enemy to God, salvation cometh to none such.” Listen to the number of words here. This is King Benjamin, but again, the same phrase shows up in Abinadi, “But the time shall come when the knowledge of a savior shall spread forth throughout every nation, kindred, tongue, and people,” and then he goes on from there. There are so many examples where Abinadi and King Benjamin are the only ones to use this language, and because of the number of connections, or it seems like King Benjamin has access to, in some way, the writings of Abinadi. Now, our listeners may be thinking, “Wait a minute, didn’t King Benjamin come before Abinadi?” But remember, if you look at the date, Abinadi actually comes first.

  00:05:46 John Hilton speaking to this said, “Based on the Nephites’ timeline presented by Mormon, King Benjamin gave his address about 124 B.C. In contrast, no explicit dating information is given about when Abinadi spoke. Nevertheless, through contextual clues, we can approximately determine this information. Alma died in 91 B.C. at the age of 82. Thus, Alma was born in 173 B.C. He was a young man”, it says, “at the trial of Abinadi, and this is Mosiah 17. Unless the definition of young man is stretched to include one who is 50 years old”, which may be, “Abinadi clearly spoke before King Benjamin’s address in 124 B.C. If we assume young man was about 20 years old, Abinadi would’ve spoken in 153 B.C. approximately 30 years before King Benjamin”. So, I would invite the audience to study the words of Abinadi and the words of King Benjamin to look for these textual connections.

  00:06:46 There are so many. In fact, many of them show up when King Benjamin is quoting the angel, which has led some to speculate, “Was Abinadi the angel?”

John Bytheway: 00:06:59 I really want to believe that. I think it would be really cool.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:07:03 There’s zero evidence other than that there is clearly a textual connection. Abinadi had passed away, so it is plausible, but the bottom line is two of the most powerful discourses we have in the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin and Abinadi, there’s this intertextual relationship that I think is beautiful and shows the effect not just of Abinadi’s life, but of Abinadi’s teachings.

John Bytheway: 00:07:27 Years ago, I was down at Deseret Industries. I found a 1952 children’s friend. The cover story was “How I Painted the Book of Mormon Paintings” by Arnold Friberg.

Hank Smith: 00:07:39 Oh wow.

John Bytheway: 00:07:40 Some pretty cool things in there about the Abinadi painting that we’re familiar with. What is the brightest spot in the painting? It’s Abinadi’s face, which it says in the text, his face shown even as Moses’s did. What is the most colorful spot in the painting? It’s King Noah with his different colored fabrics. He wanted to paint Abinadi in earth tones, but his glory was outshining every worldly thing in the room. I like to show this painting and say, “Look at the wicked priests. Where’s the young man, because they all look kind of old?” They asked Carole Mikita once from Channel five news in between sessions. She asked Arnold Friberg when he was still alive, “Which one’s the young man?”

  00:08:25 I always imagine that this fellow over here, he went off to the right in the shadows. We talked earlier about art. Walter Rane, R-A-N-E, did a series of Book of Mormon paintings, and the painting is so different. King Noah is much skinnier. He’s sitting cross-legged on a platform. Abinadi is being yanked out by the hair, but it’s short, and he’s young. Alma the Elder is running away, but the painting I love is Mosiah 18, Alma at the Waters of Mormon. So, 148 B.C., this young man is defending Abinadi. 91 B.C. Alma the Younger says, “My father died 57 years of age.” We now have all the numbers we need. What’s the difference between 148 BC and 91 BC? 57 years. How old was he when he died? 82 minus 57 is 25.

  00:09:18 So, I get Alma the Elder, was 25 when he defended Abinadi, the young man. One more thing, I read somewhere John Welch had published about when they were a group of judges, the youngest one would often speak first because of the cultural respect for your elder’s idea. If the eldest judge spoke first, all the other judges would just agree with him. Brother Welch suggested, “Could it be that because this was a group of judges, the youngest one spoke first, and that’s why Alma the Elder is the first one that appears in Mosiah 17 that started to defend Abinadi?” So, I just thought, “Here’s a young man, stood up for what he believed, defended Abinadi, and the whole Book of Mormon has changed.”

Hank Smith: 00:10:03 I love it. It takes a lot of courage to be Abinadi, to be the prophet. It also takes a lot of courage to be Alma, to be the one standing up saying, “I believe in this prophet.”

John Bytheway: 00:10:14 “He has spoken the truth concerning our iniquities”, talking about being willing to hear truth.

Hank Smith: 00:10:22 As I’m reading in Mosiah 12, it ties back to what we were saying at the beginning of the episode, and that is people don’t love prophets who say things that aren’t smooth, that are a little rough to hear. Doesn’t that seem to be the question that they come up with? John, you’ve showed me this where they say, “Hey, you’re a prophet, right?” “Yeah, I’m a prophet.” “Didn’t Isaiah say prophets are supposed to say peaceful, good tidings?” Is that what you see happening here?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:10:51 I think so, and there are a couple of ways to read this. In fact, as I’ve tried to understand this over the years, I think that there are really two questions that are asked in chapter 12 that really frame Abinadi’s teachings, and this is the first one. So, question one is Mosiah 12:20, and it came to pass that one of them said, “What meaneth the words which are written and which have been taught by our fathers saying,” and then they’re going to quote Isaiah 52:7 through 10. For us, it’s Mosiah 12 beginning in 21, “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace, that bringeth good tidings of good, that publishes salvation, that saith unto Zion thy God reigneth. Thy watchman shall lift up the voice, and the voice together they shall sing.” Then it goes on, “Break forth into joy. Sing together ye waste places of Jerusalem. For the Lord hath comforted His people, He hath redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of the nation.”

  00:11:52 So, one way of interpreting that is exactly what you’re saying, and that is, “Wait, wait, wait. Peace, joy, singing, salvation, happy, that is not Abinadi’s message.” That’s not landing that way with them. “You’re telling us his life is going to be valued as a fire, the furnace. That’s not what I’m hearing here.” So, I think that is one way of looking at it. One of our colleagues, Dr. Joe Spencer, has suggested perhaps the priests here are doing some likening. In Isaiah 52 in its original context, remember that some of the leading Jews were taken into Babylonian captivity, the exilic period, the exile, and then they would be restored to their homeland that was prophesied of, and that restoration led them to praising the Lord and his strength and such.

  00:12:48 What Joe Spencer and others have suggested is what if they’re viewing themselves as a fulfillment of that same prophecy? Well, we are back in the land of our first inheritance. Look around. The Lord is clearly blessing us. We are prospering. Clearly, God is pleased with what we’re doing. So this first question, what meaneth the words which are written, Abinadi is going to get back to that. In fact, one thing that I would recommend that might be helpful because Abinadi, if you noticed in the text, he doesn’t give his answer to that question for another couple of verses. It might be helpful if you’re sitting down with your scriptures. I just bracketed in Mosiah 12:21 through 24, and wrote the cross-reference to Isaiah if you fast-forward to Mosiah 15:10, where we’re going to see a textual connection with Isaiah 53, and we’ll get there in just a second.

  00:13:47 Who shall declare this generation? Then down in verse 14, it says, “And these are they who have published peace, who have brought good tidings of good, who have published salvation, and said unto Zion, “Thy God reigneth.” When he’s asking this question, who shall be his seed? Ties back to what we were saying earlier. Whoever has heard the words of the prophets, those who have hearkened unto the words of the prophets, are not these his seed? These are they who are publishing peace. Verse 15 of Mosiah 15, “How beautiful upon the mountains were their feet?” Again, how beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that are still publishing peace including Abinadi? Verse 17, and again, “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those who shall hereafter publish peace?”

  00:14:33 Then finally verse 18, “I say unto you, this is not all. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him-” We might say a capital H, Him, “that bringeth good tidings that is the founder of peace”. In verses 29 through 31, Abinadi is going to bookend with Isaiah 52 again. He is going to answer that question, but it’s going to be a couple of chapters later. So, I thought it might be helpful to draw that connecting line so they can see the answer to that question.

Hank Smith: 00:15:05 It feels like they asked the question, and he doesn’t really answer it. He created a wonderful multi-chapter argument to answer their question. He’s a gifted speaker.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:15:16 Absolutely. Now going back, I mentioned there are two questions. This was the first one. After they quote Isaiah going back to Mosiah 12, Abinadi stands, and this is where he gets his shots in, “Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people?” I have to wonder if he’s intentionally using that word, because back in verse 12, they said that Abinadi is pretending that the Lord has spoken it. I wonder if he’s like, “You want to talk about pretending.” Then he goes on verse 20, and I probably make him a little snarkier than he is.

Hank Smith: 00:15:48 I project my snarkiness onto him all the time.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:15:52 Verse 27, “You have not applied your hearts to understanding. What teach you this people?” They say proudly, “The law of Moses. We teach the law of Moses.” Then Abinadi, “If you teach the law of Moses, why do you not keep it? Why do you set your hearts upon riches? Why do you commit whoredoms?” I would invite all of us to consider what commandments is he referencing here? “Why do you set your hearts upon riches? This is your God. You’re committing whoredoms. You’re spending your strength with harlots. You’re causing these people to commit sin.” Then he says in verse 30, “Know ye not that I speak the truth.” When I get to that verse, I wonder… I don’t know if you guys have ever thought this as well, but at what point do you think Alma has his heart pricked? I wonder if it’s there, where he’s like, “know, ye not that I speak the truth.”

  00:16:43 You could see that settling. We don’t know. But at some point in this, Alma’s heart is softening, and he’s paying attention. Then we get to the second question in verse 31, about halfway through verse 31, “And what know ye concerning the law of Moses? Doth salvation come by the law of Moses? What say ye?” So again, the first question, what meaneath these words? The second question, doth salvation come by the law? Everything that Abinadi is talking about moving forward is answering these two questions. So, they say, “Yes, salvation comes by the law.” Abinadi concedes, “Well, yeah, you’ve got to keep the law. You’ve got to keep the commandments,” but then he digs in, and he says, “Speaking of the law, let’s think about that.”

  00:17:31 He starts going into the 10 Commandments, and he says… This is Mosiah 12:33, “I know if you keep the commandments of God, you shall be saved. If you keep the commandments, which the Lord delivered unto Moses in the Mount Sinai saying,” and then he’s going to go into it. Verse 35, “Thou shalt have no other God before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.” I love Abinadi in the next verse, “Have you done this? Have you avoided making…” I don’t know if he’s looking around. I don’t know what the scene looked like, but he’s calling them out for breaking these commandments, and that’s what leads them in chapter 13 to say, “Whatever. He’s crazy.” I don’t know if you guys have had conversations like that, but sometimes when people backed into a corner, that’s the line. It’s like, “Whatever. They’re crazy anyway.”

  00:18:16 This is where in chapter 13, they try to take him, and he boldly withstands them. I love in Mosiah 13:5, I love it when it says, “Now, it came to pass. Abinadi had spoken these words that the people of King Noah durst not lay their hands on him, for the spirit of the Lord was upon him, and his face shone with exceeding luster, even as Moses’s did while in the Mount of Sinai while speaking with the Lord, and he spake with power and authority from God.” I’m so thankful for that narrative insertion where we’re talking law of Moses. Abinadi started quoting the commandments. He’s going to pick back up in verse 12 of chapter 13, and he’s going to walk through the rest of the commandments, “Thou shalt not make any graven image. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” That’s verse 15.

  00:19:06 Verse 16, “Remember the Sabbath Day.” Verse 20, “Honor thy father and thy mother. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet.” So, he’s going to go through these commandments. While this scene is there, Abinadi is quoting the commandments. Mormon gives this little jewel where he is like, “And while he’s doing this, his face was shining just like Moses’s was on Mount Sinai.” Here, you have these priests, and here standing in front of them is the new Moses citing the commandments, declaring in the name of the Lord, warning the people. We’re going to look a little bit later on about types and shadows. Here, Abinadi is a type of Moses, and they’re blind to it to bring us full circle. They don’t see that connection.

Hank Smith: 00:19:56 Well, that’s a great connection. We have Moses receiving these 10 commandments. His face is shining. Abinadi giving, reciting these 10 commandments, his face is shining, and they’re not seeing it. I love it. Ryan, would it be okay to say that he’s saying, “Let’s go through these 10 commandments?” He gets through two, and they’re going, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, we don’t want to hear this anymore.” He said, “Oh no, we’re going through all 10. Don’t touch me. We’ve got eight more to go.”

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:20:25 This is Mosiah 13:3, “I have not delivered the message which the Lord sent me.” Then I love when he says, “Neither have I told you that which ye requested that I should tell you. I haven’t even answered your question yet. We’re not done. I’m going to keep going,” and he does. But again, later he’s going to answer that question, but it feels like he’s saying, “But I’ve got more to say before we get to that.”

  00:20:47 So, he’s going to continue talking about the law of Moses in Mosiah 13:27, “And now, you have said that salvation cometh by the law of Moses. I say unto you that it’s expedient that you should keep the law of Moses as yet, but I say unto you that the time shall come when it shall no more be expedient to keep the law of Moses.” Moreover, I say to you that salvation doth not come by the law alone, and were it not for the atonement which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people that they must unavoidably perish notwithstanding law of Moses.” Then he is going to go on in verses 29 and 30 and say, “Here’s why the law was given us that they were a stiff-necked people, quick to do iniquities, slow to remember the Lord their God. The law was given to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty toward him.”

  00:21:33 Then he says, “All these things were types of things to come.” Verse 33, “But behold did not Moses.” Again, he’s playing to their ego and their understanding. “You want to talk about Moses. Well, didn’t Moses prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of the Messiah, and that God should redeem his people? Yea, even all the prophets who have prophesied ever since the world began, have they not spoken more or less concerning these things? Have they not said God himself shall come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? Yeah, and have they not said also that he should bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, and that he himself should be oppressed and afflicted?”

  00:22:18 Now, before we move on to chapter 14, I wanted to point out a phrase that’s been repeated here twice. In Mosiah 13:28, “Were it not for the atonement?” Then it says, “Which God himself shall make.” In verse 34, “Have they not said that God himself shall come down and suffer these things?” If you jump over to chapter 15:1, Abinadi said unto them, “I would that you should understand that God himself shall come down.” Then if we jump ahead one more time to chapter 17 where Abinadi has now finished his discourse, Noah is with the priests, and they’re consulting for three days, “What should we do with them?” After these three days, Mosiah 17:6, “After three days, they counseled with the priests. He caused that they should again be brought before him, and he said unto him, “Abinadi, we have found an accusation against thee, and thou art worthy of death for thou hast said that God himself shall come down.”

  00:23:26 It is that teaching that will eventually become Abinadi’s death sentence, that God himself is going to come down, and he’s going to suffer and atone and be oppressed and afflicted. To underscore this point, what’s Abinadi going to do? “Well, priests, you went Isaiah. I’m going to go Isaiah. Because you quoted Isaiah 52, can I remind you of what comes in 53?” Then in Mosiah 14… So, this is sometimes called the suffering servant. In Mosiah 14:3, “He is despised, rejected of men, a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief. He’s despised. We esteemed him not. He’s borne our griefs, carried our sorrows, stricken, smitten, afflicted, wounded, bruised, on and on, bears our iniquities, poured out his soul. He made intercession for the transgressors.” Abinadi is teaching them here, “This is who the Messiah is going to be.”

  00:24:36 Just like the Jews in Jesus’ day had a different idea of what they were expecting with the Messiah, it seems that the priests of King Noah’s court also lack this understanding. To be fair, Peter lacked this understanding. This was hard for people to understand. The expectation was the Messiah is going to come in great power, and he’s going to be this political leader who’s going to free us from this oppression that we have so that when Jesus comes and now remember that scene where he’s standing before Pilate, and he’s bound, and the people are crying out, “Crucify him, crucify him,” this can’t be the Messiah, because our Messiah is going to break the bonds of oppression. Think of Peter in Matthew 16, “Thou art the Christ, the Messiah, the son of the living God,” but it’s the same exact chapter that Jesus is going to prophesy and say, “I’m going to be taken, and I’m going to be killed, and I’m going to rise again the third day.”

  00:25:36 What does Peter say? “Be it far from thee, Lord.” No. No. No. There is no way that’s going to happen. Jesus’s response, “Get thee behind me, Satan. Thou were an offense unto me.” Like, “You don’t get it yet. I have to do this.” This is Abinadi’s message that it is a condescended Christ who is the true Messiah, one who is condescended below all things. In verse five, he’s going to say, “He suffereth temptation. He yieldeth not to temptation, but he suffereth himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by his people.” In verse seven, “Even so, he shall be led, crucified and slain, the flesh becoming subject unto death.” Helping them understand the doctrinal truth that the Messiah who would come in his first coming, it would be a condescending Christ, a condescending Savior who would suffer these things, and atone so that he could then conquer death, and lead to the true freedom and liberation that they were seeking.

John Bytheway: 00:26:45 I have a note from something that was published in FARMS about Abinadi by Todd Parker. Let’s look at the name Abinadi. These people had Hebrew background. In Hebrew, AB, Ab means father. ABI means my father, and Nadi is present with you. So, the name Abinadi may reflect his mission. It may mean something like my father is present with you. That is actually why they said they killed him, because he said God would come down and would be with men. That’s the charge of blasphemy they finally used to put him to death. I don’t know if you’ve heard that before, but instead of just agreeing to disagree, why do they want to kill people? It sounds like are they trying to use some sort of charge of blasphemy, and that’s why they’re justifying that they could kill him because he said God would come down among men?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:27:40 Yeah, I think if you go back to Mosiah 7, in verse 26, it says, “And a prophet of the Lord had they slain,” speaking of Abinadi, “Yea a chosen man of God who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ.” Because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning, or in other words he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth. Now, because he said this, they did put him to death, and many more things did they do, which brought down the wrath of God upon them.

  00:28:26 It seems pretty clear that this is the death sentence. It is this teaching, this true teaching that he would condescend and suffer these things. That’s what led to them eventually feeling justified, making the decision to take his life. I just want to share one more thought with this idea that Abinadi is teaching that God himself shall come down, and like it says in chapter 13:34, “Come forth among the children of men, and take upon him the form of men, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth.” Then it goes on and says, “He himself will be oppressed and afflicted.” We were speaking earlier about Abinadi’s textual legacy and the impact of his words. I have to wonder… We already talked about the connection between he and King Benjamin.

  00:29:16 I wonder if this is in part where Benjamin or the angel is quoting, “Shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and go forth amongst men working mighty miracles, and lo, he shall suffer temptations and pain of body, hunger, thirst, fatigue even more than man can suffer except to be unto death, for behold, blood cometh from every pore. So great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people,” or is it possible that Alma and Alma seven when he’s speaking to those in Gideon, he’ll go forth suffering pains, afflictions, temptations? He’ll take upon him death that he may lose the bands of death. He will take upon him infirmities that their bowels may be filled with mercy according to the flesh. Again, the emphasis, he is going to become a man that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

  00:30:07 “The spirit knoweth all things” he could know these things by revelation. “Nevertheless, the son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he may take upon him the sins of his people.” I wonder if Abinadi’s teachings here influence some of those verses that I think we’re very familiar with and we quote often, but it was Abinadi who is emphasizing that he would come forth, take upon him a mortal tabernacle and suffer. For our listeners, I hope that we see the theological value of this truth, that the reality is that Christ has condescended below all things. There’s nothing that we have felt, there’s no pain that we’ve suffered, there’s no fear that we’ve experienced that Christ hasn’t felt. He is condescended below all of this so that we can come boldly to the throne of grace, and find strength and help and healing.

  00:31:05 I want to illustrate this with a couple of stories. The first one was told by Elder Jay E. Jensen in general conference several years ago in a talk called Arms of Safety. I think it’s 2009. He told the story about a family who was visiting the Grand Canyon, and they were doing what you do at the Grand Canyon, taking pictures and enjoying the beautiful landscape. There was some railing up by the edge of the cliff to try to keep everybody safe, but a little two-year-old girl had slid through the rails, and she fell down 35 feet. She had rolled to where she was five feet from another drop that would go down 200 feet. So, you have all of these people at the top of this cliff gasping. I mean, imagine this scene. When all of a sudden this 19-year-old young man named Ian, he says, who is trained as an EMT comes down this cliff, and goes and sits with this little girl.

  00:31:57 The story says he held her in his arms for about an hour until the emergency response team could come and safely get both of them there. Elder Jensen made the point that that phrase held her in his arms had an impact on him, because the scriptures talk about arms. They talk about arms of mercy, arms of safety, being encircled about eternally in the arms of his love, or clasped in the arms of Jesus for those who are struggling and those who are hurting, the reality of the Savior’s atonement, because he condescended below all things in these moments, you can experience those arms in this life. It doesn’t have to be the next life when we first feel the power of the arms of safety or the arms of mercy. Whether it’s unrepented of sin, we can come to the Savior, and truly experience the arms of mercy.

  00:32:52 If it’s a difficult trial, we can experience the arms of love and compassion. I love that truth. It’s a second story that I want to share that I hope will highlight the reality of the Savior’s grace, and the reality that He continues to love even when we mess up. Several years ago, my boys were playing upstairs. We have a bonus room upstairs, and we used to make that the playroom. So we would say, “All right, kids, go play.” They were only three or four minutes in when all of a sudden, my second son comes down crying, and he said, “Dad, Bubba hit me.” He calls his brother Bubba. “Dad, Bubba hit me.” I said, “All right, Braxton, son, come sit down.” Braxton is sitting on stair four, and I’m standing at the bottom of the stairs if you can visualize this. I was like, “Okay, son, what happened?”

  00:33:44 He’s like, “Well, he took my toy,” so they’re probably five and three at the time. “Well, he took my toy.” I was like, “And?” He’s like, “And so I hit him.” I was like, “And that’s the part we need to talk about, son. Hands are for loving and giving a high five and throwing a football, and these are all the nice things you can do with your hands. You can’t hit your brother.” He’s like, “I’m sorry, I know I shouldn’t have hit him. I promise I won’t ever do it again.” I was like, “You promise?” He’s like, “Yes, just give me another chance. I promise I won’t do it anymore.” “Good, son. See that you don’t. Now, go play.” To be honest, I’m strutting around the house feeling like father of the year. I was thinking, “Man, I nailed that.”

  00:34:33 Within five minutes, Logan comes down again. “Dad, he pushed me over.” “Okay, Braxton, come here,” in the exact same spot. “Son, do you remember five minutes ago, you were sitting here, and I was standing here?” “Yeah.” “Do you remember what I said?” “That I shouldn’t hit him anymore.” “Do you remember what you said?” “That I wouldn’t do it anymore.” “What did you do?” “I did it again.” “Do you see where I’m going with this, son?” He’s like, “I was frustrated. I’m sorry, I won’t do it anymore. Just please, can I have another chance?” “For real, bud, you cannot do this anymore. “Okay. Okay, just give me another…” They go up and play. They make it like 20 or 30 minutes this time when again he starts crying again. “Braxton, come here.” He sits down on the stairs, and I’m thinking in my mind, “How are we doing this right now, this same thing again?”

  00:35:25 He’s like, “I’m sorry, I won’t do it anymore.” I was like, “I know you won’t do it anymore, because now you need to go to your room, son.” He makes the long walk of shame over to his bedroom. Now, I sit down on the stairs pretty close to where he was sitting, and I’ve got my face buried in my hands. “What is wrong with my child?” Almost immediately, I get this impression, “Ryan, what is wrong with you?” I was like, “That was unnecessary. We’re not talking about me. We’re talking about my delinquent five-year-old here,” and then it hits me. How many times have I gone before Heavenly Father, and in all sincerity said, “Heavenly Father, I am so sorry for this? Please forgive me.” What does he do? He forgives me, and I tell him I’m never going to do it again.

  00:36:18 What do I do? I do it again. Heavenly Father, please forgive me. For real this time, I won’t do it anymore.” What does he do? He forgives me. While I’m sitting on those stairs, I was reminded of the hymn, “I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me.” Do you remember the next phrase? Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me. Because of the condescension of Jesus Christ, we can always come back. There is no sin that’s been committed that’s beyond the scope of the Savior’s grace. I believe that with all my heart. I’ve experienced that, the hope that comes because of who Jesus was, and because of the depths of his atonement.

Hank Smith: 00:37:05 Ryan, thank you so much for that. I’m glad to hear that I’m not the only parent that is having these discussions over and over and over, but I can see the Lord saying the same thing with me. Yes. Yes, you’re getting some experience that I’ve had with you. One thing that I’ve noticed quite a bit this year that I don’t think I’ve ever noticed before is how mind-blowing it is to these people that God himself is going to come down. That’s something that we’ve all grown up with. This is not news, but it seems to be news to Nephi when the angel tells him, “Behold the condescension of God.” When King Benjamin says, “I’ve received this from an angel, that God is going to come to earth.” Alma 7, Alma’s going to say the same thing.

  00:37:52 I don’t want to lose the wow of the fact that Jehovah, the God we worship, you mean He’s coming here to be with us, to be like us. Why? Gods don’t do that. That’s not something Gods do. This one is.

John Bytheway: 00:38:09 To be willing to be horribly mistreated because of love for us, it is a confusing and I stand all amazed type story, isn’t it?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:38:21 Another example of that, Hank, is the brother of Jared. Do you remember when he sees the finger of the Lord, and he’s like, “Wait a minute.” They did not understand that.

Hank Smith: 00:38:31 With that, Ryan, let’s move into 15. This can be a confusing chapter for some.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:38:37 Yeah, absolutely. So as we look at chapter 15, it begins, and now verse one, Abinadi said unto them, “I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in the flesh, he shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son, the Father because he was conceived by the power of God, the Son because of the flesh thus becoming the Father and the Son.” Then in verse four, “And they are one God, the Eternal Father in heaven, the flesh becoming subject to the spirit, the Son to the Father being one God.” So, this has led some readers of the Book of Mormon and definitely some critics of the Book of Mormon to conclude that maybe this is a Trinitarian type doctrine, that maybe Abinadi’s understanding of what we would call the Godhead looked a little bit different.

  00:39:25 However, if we look at it in context, I think there is a really helpful way of approaching these verses that make it a little more simple and that align beautifully with what our core doctrinal understanding is of the members of the Godhead. If we make the assumption that this is talking about Heavenly Father and Jesus, then you can absolutely see some confusion and crossover. But if I’m making the assumption that Abinadi is talking about Jesus on both counts, but he’s talking about the two parts of Jesus, the divine side and the mortal side, Jesus is the only-begotten son of the Father, a divine, eternal, heavenly being, a God, and a mortal mother, Mary.

  00:40:17 So from His divine father, He inherited certain attributes. From His mortal mother, he inherited certain attributes. If we focus on these verses looking at the fact that it’s talking about Jesus and these two sides to him, then I think it makes more sense.

Hank Smith: 00:40:36 Ryan, I think you’re right on here. With people, I’ve tried to explain these verses to, it’s hard for them when I say, “Take your definition of the Father as God the Father, take that out of the equation.” That’s hard. Like, “Wait. What?” Yeah, take that out of the equation. That’s not what he’s talking about. It really makes it much more simple to understand.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:41:00 Beautiful. So if we’re looking at words like flesh and son representing the mortal side of him, and father and spirit representing the divine side, then let’s look at the verses again. Because He, Jesus, dwelleth in the flesh, He shall be called the Son of God, having subjected the flesh, His mortal side, to the will of the Father, His divine side, being the Father and the son. This is really, I think, what clarifies it, because he was conceived by the power of God. Jesus was conceived by the power of God. In that sense, he’s got this divinity within him, and the son because of the flesh, this mortal side, thus becoming the father and the son.

Hank Smith: 00:41:42 When it says becoming the Father and the son, he’s both divine and mortal.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:41:48 Once we see that, I think it becomes really clear, especially if you look at verse five, that’s the flesh, the mortal side becoming subject to the spirit, or the Son to the father being one God. We’re talking about one person, Jesus, but we’re talking about these two parts of Him, this divine and this mortal.

John Bytheway: 00:42:07 This is one of those places where the synopsis is really helpful to do the 30,000-foot view before you get really close. So, the first phrase, how Christ is both the Father and the Son, these verses are about Christ. When you see that, and then you read it, you have to slow down, and then you read it. You see what you’re talking about. He’s got a divine component, immortal component. He shall come and redeem. So you go, “Okay, He’s the Redeemer.” These verses are about Christ. That’s always helped me.

Hank Smith: 00:42:36 It might be confusing to someone to say, “Well, why call him the father?” Well, he’s called the father frequently throughout scripture. According to King Benjamin, “This day, he has spiritually begotten you.” Where is that?

John Bytheway: 00:42:49 The father of our rebirth, so we become the children of Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:42:53 Who calls him the father of salvation.

John Bytheway: 00:42:55 The father of heaven and earth is a reference to the creator. So, that’s another way he’s called the father.

Hank Smith: 00:43:03 So, that can be confusing. I can see a listener going, “You’re telling me the Father, capital F, is not talking about God the Father?” No, it is not, at least not in this case.

John Bytheway: 00:43:14 Read the synopsis first. This is all about Christ in these first three verses.

Hank Smith: 00:43:19 He is both divine and mortal. Man, Ryan, just that little piece right there, to replace that with divine and mortal, that one is in control of the other in his life. He has both sides to him, but one is in control of the other. That makes this much more clear.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:43:35 I want to show in just a second how if we move along what he says next, I think it underscores that. But before we do that, Elder Holland talked about this in his wonderful book, Christ and the New Covenant. He says, “Besides being both the spiritual and physical son of God, and in addition to acting with divine investiture of authority” another way, Hank, that he is the Father, “Jesus claimed a major portion of this divine fatherly power through the fundamental gospel principle of obedience. Christ’s final triumph and ultimate assumption of Godly powers came not because he had a divine parent, not because he was given authority from the beginning, but ultimately because he was perfectly obedient. The flesh, the mortal side, submitting to His divine purpose.”

  00:44:22 I think this is so important because for each of us who are involved in this, us in this room, the broader audience, we have the exact same invitation. Let the flesh, the mortal side, become subject to the spirit, the divine side, or again, to make a connection to King Benjamin, the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever. We have to put off the natural man, and become a saint through the atonement. All of us are asked to do the same thing. Mosiah 15 continues, if you look at verse six, “And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said.” Now, one of our colleagues, Joe Spencer, pointed this out to me, and I love this thought. He’s echoing Isaiah 53 or Mosiah 14 where it says, “All we, like sheep, have gone astray. We’ve turned everyone to his own way. The Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.”

  00:45:24 Verse seven, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth. He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before the shearer is dumb.” So, he opened not his mouth. Joe was just pointing out that Abinadi here in chapter 15 now, he has two different lamb metaphors that he could use. One is a lamb to the slaughter, and the other is a sheep before the shearer is dumb. If we were to guess in context of the work of the atonement and such, the assumption would be we would go a lamb to the slaughter, but that’s not what Abinadi does. In chapter 15:6, After working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led even as Isaiah said not a lamb to the slaughter, a sheep before the shearer is dumb. So, he opened not his mouth.

  00:46:15 The point that Joe is making, and that I really appreciate here, is there’s obviously a very big difference between a lamb to the slaughter and a sheep to the shearer. One of them doesn’t come back, but a sheep to the shearer, it is this submission. It is as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth, the will of the flesh becoming subject to the will of the spirit, or as it would say in verse seven, “Even so he shall be led, crucified and slain, the flesh becoming subject unto death, the will of the son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.” Again, as I was mentioning earlier, we are all asked to do this same thing. In chapter 16 of Mosiah, Abinadi starts to get at that.

  00:47:02 In chapter 16:3, “For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them, yea, even that old serpent did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall, which did cause all mankind to become carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil. Thus, all mankind were lost, and behold they would’ve been endlessly lost were it not that God redeemed his people from their lost and fallen state, but remember he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin” who doesn’t put off the natural man, whose flesh doesn’t become subject to the spirit… Well, here are the consequences for that.

  00:47:43 So, the invitation for all of us is, “I am going to submit my mortal, fleshy, fallen state to the will of the Father and the divine side within me, and thus submit to Him.” Put off the natural man, and become a saint through the atonement of Christ. As I do that, I learn what President Nelson recently reiterated, that God can make a lot more out of our lives than we can, and we turn our lives over to him, and he helps us become the best version of ourselves that we can become.

Hank Smith: 00:48:18 That persists in his own carnal nature. Who is he speaking to? He’s speaking to this group of people. He says, “Now, remember, anyone who continues this carnal nature, this is where they end up.” You can see Alma going, “Oh wow.”

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:48:36 Yeah, I don’t want that.

Hank Smith: 00:48:38 Yeah, he’s caught me.

John Bytheway: 00:48:40 I don’t think this is about all of us who make mistakes over and over again. Like in your previous story, it’s you persist in your carnal nature, and then, another phrase, you go on in the way of sin, and then you rebel. Remember, was it Elder Richard G. Scott that the Lord sees weakness differently than he does rebellion? I like that those three words are together. You persist. You go on and you rebel. This is different than those of us who try and mess up a lot, don’t you think?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:49:07 Yeah, absolutely. One final application from this idea of submission is do you remember the famous Elder Maxwell quote, “The submission of one’s will is really the only thing that we have to give to God?” There’s another less known quote, and it was Elder Maxwell speaking in a regional conference or to regional representatives. Area 70s is what we would call them now. Elder Hafen recorded this in one of his books. He said, “It would change the entire church.” So, this is Elder Maxwell, which by the way, anytime an apostle says that, my ears perk up. “It would change the entire church if in every ward, we had just three or four more families who became truly consecrated disciples of Jesus Christ instead of just being active in the church.”

  00:49:57 Usually, we differentiate between less active and active. He’s saying, “The goal isn’t just active. The goal is all in. It’s consecrated. It’s the submission of my will to the will of the Father.” As he said, it would change the entire church if we had just a few more of those truly consecrated disciples of Christ in each of our wards.

John Bytheway: 00:50:19 That’s cool.

Hank Smith: 00:50:19 What a great thought. It makes me want to be one of those people. I probably won’t, but I will try. I will try.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:50:27 I would argue. I think you are among those, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:50:30 Oh, I hope so. As a reader, I read Isaiah 53. I see Christ here, and I see Abinadi walking me through. He’s doing something very similar to what Jacob and Nephi would do. They would quote and then explain. As I walk away from Abinadi’s beautiful explanation of the Atonement as found in Isaiah 53, how should I see the Savior differently because of Isaiah 53 and then Abinadi’s explanation?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:51:01 If Abinadi were in the room, I would assume he would want us to emphasize just what we were talking about before, that Christ truly did condescend below all things. It’s because of that, that we can have confidence in coming to him. Like we were talking about earlier, whether unrepentant of sin, even those things that we keep doing that we wish we didn’t do, like I mentioned in this story of my son, we have that hope. Maybe the second part of that is the last part that I want to emphasize in Abinadi’s teachings, and that is what he teaches about the resurrection of Christ, the ultimate triumph of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:51:43 100% on board. In my teaching, I often refer to the core doctrines of the church, the ones that we have our highest confidence in. They’re not hard to find. They’re not stuck in some quote, in some talk from back in the 1800s. Joseph Smith said this, and it’s been taught from Joseph Smith until today, “The atonement of the only-begotten son of God in the flesh is the greatest expression of divine love this world has ever been given. The atonement of Jesus Christ, its importance in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be overstated.” There’s some things in the gospel we could probably over teach. We could probably do too much, but this one cannot be talked about enough.

  00:52:31 Joseph Smith goes on, “Every other principle, commandment, virtue of the restored gospel”, everything we do from temples to prophets to youth programs, to priesthood, “every other principle commandment, virtue of the restored gospel draws its significance from this pivotal event.” So, I walk away from these chapters also saying, this is the centerpiece for peace. This is why we do what we do.

John Bytheway: 00:53:00 This is the main thing. To paraphrase Stephen Covey, the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 00:53:08 Yeah. All other things are an appendage to it, the prophet Joseph would say. This really is the most important fundamental doctrine. I think it’s significant that Abinadi ends emphasizing the Resurrection, because as President Hinckley has said, without Easter there would be no Christmas. Elder Stevenson in a talk given in 2023 was quoting N.T. Wright. I’ll paraphrase. I don’t remember what it was exactly, but he said, look, if we take away the birth narrative of Jesus from the New Testament, we lose a couple of chapters. If we take away the resurrection, there is no New Testament. There is no Bible. To quote Paul, “If Christ be not risen from the dead, then is your preaching in vain?” Everything hangs in the balance.

  00:53:57 I think it’s significant that Abinadi is going to end his discourse focusing on that. In fact, I have to imagine, obviously, we don’t know this for sure, but as I was driving in today to do this, I was reminded of this quote from Elder Maxwell. He said, “Some of the best sermons we will ever hear will be thus prompted from the pulpit of memory to an audience of one.” I wonder if as Abinadi is teaching the doctrine of the resurrection, I wonder if yes, his audience was the people, and yes, it’s the priests, and in a unique way, it’s Alma. But I have to wonder, like John mentioned earlier, I wonder if he knows what’s coming, and I wonder if it’s these teachings that he’s about to give about the Resurrection that give him the confidence to stand so boldly in these final moments.

  00:54:53 I’m looking at chapter 15. Let’s begin in verse 20, “But behold, the bands of death shall be broken, and the son reigneth and hath power over the dead. Therefore, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead, and there cometh a resurrection, even a first resurrection, yea, even a resurrection of those who have been and who are and who shall be even until the resurrection of Christ, for so shall he be called.” So, I wonder if this is sinking deeply in his soul, and now the resurrection of all the prophets and all those who believed on their words, those who as he just finished teaching, those are his seed. When he shall see his seed, it’s though it’s the prophets and those who are following the prophets. Verse 24, “And these are those who have a part in the first resurrection. These are they who died before Christ came,” and he continues there.

  00:55:45 But now, jump over to chapter 16, and we’ll look at verse six, “Now, if Christ had not come into the world,” and I love this from Abinadi, speaking of things to come as though they had already come. You want to talk about faith. For him, it’s like, “Oh, I forgot.” He hasn’t actually come yet literally, but we’re going to move forward speaking as though he had. There could have been no redemption. If Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection, but there is a resurrection. Therefore, the grave hath no victory, and the sting of death is swallowed up in Christ.” That beautiful phrase and that beautiful imagery, I think, encapsulates his message.

  00:56:37 Hank, I know you were recently on the Y Religion podcast, and shared some of your experiences which were beautiful and moving, talking about how the sting of death has been swallowed up in Christ in your experiences. I want to share one from a member of my stake where they had a son who had relatively recently come home from his mission. He was going to school up at BYU Idaho. He was home, and he had to leave for work early in the morning. One of those crazy snowstorms that we sometimes get here in Utah comes in, and this young man, as he’s driving, ends up getting hit by a truck. It puts him in a coma for several days. First of all, I cannot imagine what that would be like, the fear and concern and the questions and all of those emotions.

  00:57:30 In the midst of all of this, while their son is in a coma, and they don’t know if he’s going to make it or not, his mom sent an email to me and then to some others in the stake. I just want to read part of what she wrote in this email. She wrote this to her daughter who was serving as a missionary at the time. So, this daughter wasn’t even home to help with all of this. Then she forwarded the email to several of us. She said, “There are two types of miracles. We are all praying for a miracle.” She said, “The first is the kind where you get what you want.” Where miraculously, in this case, their son and brother is miraculously healed. He comes out of this coma, and goes on to live an incredible mortal life, but she said, “The second type is maybe when that miracle doesn’t happen, but you feel peace, even though the first kind of miracle doesn’t happen. He can give us peace even when things don’t turn out the way we want.”

  00:58:37 She said, “I’m trying to stay positive. I know miracles are possible. I also know that with the number of wonderful people praying for their son, there is plenty of faith for a miracle to happen. And if it’s meant to happen, it will, but we also have to be willing to accept the second kind of miracle if that is in God’s plan.” The second kind of miracle, again, is, “Can I somehow have peace if my son or brother or friend passes away? Can the sting of death truly be swallowed up in the atonement of Christ?” In this case, he ended up passing away a few days later. I was at the funeral, and I heard this same woman share her testimony with positive confidence, grieving obviously, hurting clearly, but the sting of death was swallowed up in Christ because of the second kind of miracle that they found peace and hope in the atonement of Jesus Christ and in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

  00:59:46 It’s a beautiful truth, and I have to wonder if Abinadi is connecting this.

John Bytheway: 00:59:53 It reminds me of the story Elder Bednar tells about, “You have faith to be healed. Do you have the faith not to be healed?” Perhaps both of those can be considered miraculous. I really cannot imagine that kind of a thing happening to a child.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 01:00:13 This young man’s dad is my first counselor in our stake presidency. As we were preparing for a stake conference, we were talking about the Saturday evening session, talking about, “We have to make sure it’s real, and it’s connecting with people, and it’s…” We’re talking about real challenges. Later that night, he called and he said, “I haven’t been able to kick this thought.” This was five years ago that this happened, and he said, “I haven’t talked about it ever.” He said, “I keep getting the impression that I need to share my story.” In the Saturday evening session of stake conference, he took 20 minutes, and he talked about talking to his son that morning, getting him off to go to work, and his son was asking his dad for advice, because he was going to go and propose to his girlfriend.

  01:01:00 He said, “Yeah, I can’t wait to have that conversation. There are so many things that I would love to share with you.” Then his son goes off to work, and is killed. So in that talk, he said, “You never know when that moment is.” He’s talked about never let a day go by that you don’t express love and how proud you are of your children, and how much they mean. Anyway, it was an amazing talk.

Hank Smith: 01:01:25 Boy, sounds like it.

John Bytheway: 01:01:27 That’s what we call making it real, huh?

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 01:01:29 Yeah. I had to stand up after that, and I just told the stake, I said, “In our preparations, we felt this needed to be real.” I just read from Alma 32, and I said, “Oh, then is not this real?” This is the reality of the truths of the gospel.

Hank Smith: 01:01:45 As you were talking about Abinadi there at the end of 16, we all have our own Book of Mormon movie going on in our head. I do picture Abinadi realizing, “This is it. I’m done with my message.” Yeah, a lot of this. Verse eight, “There is a resurrection.” Verse nine, “He is the light and life of the world, life which is endless,” knowing that in whatever the next few hours, days, his mortal life is over. Then again, this is just me being hopeful, but the end of chapter 16:13, 14, and 15, I hope Abinadi is looking straight at Alma knowing he’s made a connection. Should you repent of your sins? Remember that in Christ, you are saved. If you teach the law of Moses, almost as if he’s giving them his advice, right?

  01:02:34 If you’re going to teach the law of Moses, teach that it’s a shadow of things to come. Teach them, Alma, at the waters of Mormon. Teach them that redemption comes through Christ the Lord.” I hope for that. I hope that’s the way it worked out.

John Bytheway: 01:02:49 I think those last two verses, Hank, are such a perfect summary of everything he’s taught. We had a sister in our ward that got up and gave a talk on two words, “Redemption cometh,” out of verse 15 there, that hopeful message. It’s coming.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 01:03:08 I just want to end with a couple of thoughts that are captured in stories, again, with small children. Some of my favorite stories are these stories of the wisdom of children. Probably six years ago, we had a little family council. We were talking about some changes that were happening in our family and what that was going to look like. We said, “Do you have any questions?” My then three-year-old raises his hand. Little Talmadge, when he was three, I mean, every family council, he’d raise his hand high, and then we’d call on him, and he would just say something completely random, had nothing to do with what we were talking about, but he would feel like he contributed to the family council.

  01:03:46 On this day, it’s a Sunday morning, he raises his hand, and he said, “Guys, Jesus died. He came alive again, and he stayed alive.” We were like, “What did you say, bud?” He said, “Jesus died, and he came alive again, but he stayed alive.” To this day, I have not heard a more succinct, beautiful summary of the mission and life of Jesus Christ, and the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Looking at Abinadi’s teachings, he did die. He condescended below all things. He suffered all of these things, but He came alive again. Again, that’s the triumph of the message of the gospel. That’s the hope that comes through the resurrection, but equally important is he stayed alive.

  01:04:36 Because He stayed alive, He lives now, and because He stayed alive, the work of redemption continues even now. He continues to minister in His own way. He continues to heal and comfort and strengthen and forgive, and all of these things, because he stayed alive again. Elder Holland told this story, and I’ll end with this because I feel like it ties in so many different things that we’ve talked about today. He talked about his neighbor. His neighbor was his bishop. Could you imagine being Elder Holland’s bishop, by the way? Not by the way John. Sorry.

Hank Smith: 01:05:12 His bishop, by the way.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 01:05:13 Yeah. Could you imagine being Elder Holland’s bishop? He told the story about their neighbor, and they had two children, a little boy named Jimmy and a little four-year-old daughter named Katie. Jimmy was battling leukemia. Again, I can’t imagine what that would be like as a parent. They would pray. They would fast. They were priesthood blessings. They would go to the temple. They did everything that they could seeking for that miracle that we were talking about before. The mom went to the temple one day seeking some kind of peace, and she came home absolutely exhausted. It’s one of those days where it’s exhausted physically and mentally, emotionally, spiritually, the days where you just want to walk in and collapse on your bed, and say, “Nobody talk to me. I can’t do anything right now.” She has a four-year-old, and four-year-olds don’t actually believe in that.

  01:06:07 She walks in the door, and little four-year-old Katie starts tugging on her dress. You can imagine the scene, “Mom. Mom. Hey, mommy. Mom. Mom. Mom.” The mom said, “My initial inclination was not now, Katie. I can’t do this right now,” but she didn’t want to regret this moment, and so she paused, and she said, “Yeah, Katie, what is it?” Katie looks up at her mom, and she holds up a piece of paper. You’ve seen it so many times with little… You get a lot of these little masterpieces from four-year-olds. So, she holds up this piece of paper, and she says, “Mom, do you know what this is?” She says, “No, Katie, what is it?” Katie says, “These are the scriptures,” and you can imagine the mom like, “Oh, yes, those are the scriptures. That’s wonderful, Katie.”

  01:06:49 Then this little four-year-old girl looks at her mom who’s dealing with all of this. She says, “Mom, do you know what the scriptures say?” Now, if you’re a parent, and your four-year-old is about to summarize the entire message of the word of God, you want to know what she’s going to say. So, she kneels down at eye level, and she says, “Katie, what do the scriptures say?” Katie looks at her mom, and she says, “They say trust Jesus.” Then she drops the paper, and skips away. Mom begins to weep, and she said, “I felt near tangible arms encircle me in that moment.” Trust Jesus. The message of Abinadi, the message for Abinadi, the message for us from Abinadi, it’s trust. We can trust the Savior.

  01:07:40 We can trust that he really is the conquering Messiah, that he conquered death, and because of that, we have hope. I am so thankful for the man Abinadi, but I’m also thankful for the message of Abinadi and for the hope that it’s given me. I’ll just add my witness that Jesus died, and he came alive again, and he stayed alive. That changes everything for me and for all of us. I share that in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Hank Smith: 01:08:15 Amen. Thank you, Ryan. What a great day. We want to thank you, Ryan, for spending your time with us today. We know you’re busy, stake president out there in Santaquin.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 01:08:26 Santaquin East Stake.

Hank Smith: 01:08:27 The Santaquin East Stake, we love you. Thank you for letting us borrow your Stake President. Jessica and boys, thank you for letting us borrow your husband for a few hours. What a great day, John.

John Bytheway: 01:08:39 Yeah. To end with the testimony of a three-year-old, incredible, out of the mouths of babes, right? That’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 01:08:45 Yeah, that’s absolutely beautiful. I was thinking, Ryan, as you finished, is we’ve been friends for a long time and how much I really like you. I like this guy. Then I thought, “One thing I hope is that our listeners really enjoy our guests,” and they do. People tell us all the time, John, right? I love your guests, but I think Ryan would agree with me when I say, yes, the guest is amazing, but it’s the book. It’s the material we have.

Dr. Ryan Sharp: 01:09:14 Yep. Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 01:09:17 It’s this book. You can take a great guest with an infinitely important, beautiful book, and this is what happens. We want to thank Dr. Ryan Sharp for being with us today, so grateful for you and your wisdom and the stories you’ve shared. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re going to talk Waters of Mormon and what happens to Alma on followHIM.