Hank Smith: 00:04 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name’s Hank Smith, I’m your host. I’m here with my zealous co-host, John Bytheway, and our guest, Dr. Stephan Taeger. John, we are past King Benjamin now, and we’re looking into the rest of the Book of Mosiah, where things get a little complicated. All of a sudden, the storyline changes quite a bit.

John Bytheway: 00:24 Yeah, it’s kind of fun. We have a portion of the Book of Mormon where there’s Nephites in Zarahemla, and Nephites in the land of Nephi, and then there’s, later on, Lamanites in the land of Nephi, and it can be kind of confusing, so this will be fun to sort it all out a little bit.

Hank Smith: 00:38 We got to look at how Mormon decides he’s going to go do a flashback technique. It’s a good thing we have an expert here to help us out. Stephan, what are we looking forward to today, Mosiah 7 through 10?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 00:51 Yeah, like you both mentioned, what we’re going to see here is a flashback. We’re actually going to see a little bit of an adventure story. In fact, we’re going to see the power of story itself, that’s going to kind of act as sort of a motif as we go through this. And, of course, we’re going to focus on the most important story, that is that God sent His Son to give His life for the world, and the implications of the stories and narratives we take up, and how they change the way we see the world, and how we live and act in the world.

Hank Smith: 01:18 Yeah. I’ve noticed with at least the classes I’ve taught on the Book of Mormon, that as you get past King Benjamin, it becomes less and less familiar to Latter-day Saints. Most of us know the stories of 1 Nephi. We know the Isaiah chapters, and we know they’re there, anyway. A lot of us know the story of King Benjamin, but after that, things start to go, “Wait, how many Ammons are there? How many Moronis are there? I better figure this out.”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 01:44 Actually, I was talking to Jared Halverson today in the hallway, and I told him, just in passing, what chapters I would be doing on followHIM today, and he said, “Oh yeah, that’s right between King Benjamin’s sermon and the Abinadi sermon, so you have that stuff in between.”

Hank Smith: 01:57 Yeah, whatever it is. There’s something there. John, Stephan joined us last year in the Book of Acts, and it was fantastic. However, maybe not everyone was joining us last year, so introduce him to us.

John Bytheway: 02:11 Yes, we’re delighted to have Dr. Stephan Taeger. He’s an assistant professor of ancient scripture. He received a PhD from BYU in Instructional Psychology and Technology. His research focuses on homiletics, which is the study of preaching, narrative instruction, and ancient scripture. So, I loved he mentioned the power of story, because I think we all love stories, and we love learning lessons from stories.

  02:35 Dr. Taeger and his wife Kirsten are the parents of six children. He also has a podcast called the REVIVAL podcast, which he does with David Butler. You might want to check that out. Also, a book called Ears to Hear: Mini Sermons That Make You Think. Stephan, you said that was mainly like mini parables from the Book of Mormon, is that right?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 02:55 These are a collection of narrative sermons that are designed to create the same effect as a parable, so they slowly lead you up to a point, the sermon ends in such a way to invite thought. And ideally, as you think deeper, you’ll receive your own insights from the Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and the Lord will teach you exactly what you need to learn as you study these little mini sermons that are connected to different Book of Mormon texts.

John Bytheway: 03:20 I’m looking at your bio here, instructional psychology, and I have to ask, what have you been taught about the use of stories in life and in scripture that might be interesting to our listeners?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 03:31 First of all, it’s interesting that the Lord inspired His prophets to primarily fill the scriptures with stories, rather than just a list of point one, go to church, point two, pay your tithing. There’s definitely places for that, there’s times for direct discourse. But one of the reasons why stories are so powerful is that they’re experiential. You can actually feel something, experience something alongside with a story. And stories also bring down our defenses. We start to identify with certain characters in ways, maybe if someone was speaking to us directly, we might get a little defensive about. And we’ll talk more about that today as we dive into Mosiah 7 through 10, because there’s some really powerful lessons here about the possibilities that stories open up for us, and also the ways that if we take up certain narratives, it closes down our capacity to have joy and happiness.

Hank Smith: 04:20 That is fantastic. John, tell me the names of the podcast again and the book, I want to write them down.

John Bytheway: 04:25 Yeah. The podcast is called the REVIVAL podcast, and Stephan does that with our friend David Butler. And then that book was called Ears to Hear: Mini Sermons That Make You Think. And I’ve tried most of my life to avoid thinking, so that’s one I need to pick up, to make me think.

Hank Smith: 04:43 Ears to Hear. That sounds like something Jesus would say.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 04:46 I got it from Him. I did.

Hank Smith: 04:48 Hey Stephan, let me read from the manual, and then let’s turn it over to you, find out where do you want to go. This is what it says, opening paragraphs. “While King Mosiah’s people were enjoying continual peace in Zarahemla, their thoughts turned to another group of Nephites, who many years before had left to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi. Generations had passed, and Mosiah’s people had heard nothing from them.” You would expect, someone’s gone for that many years, you might check in. “Mosiah asked Ammon to lead a search party to find the Nephites who had left. The search party found that these Nephites, ‘because of iniquity’, were in captivity to the Lamanites. But with the arrival of Ammon and his brethren, suddenly there was hope for deliverance.”

  05:29 “Sometimes we’re like these captive Nephites, suffering because of our sins, wondering how we’ll ever find peace again. Sometimes we’re like Ammon, feeling prompted to reach out to others and eventually find that our efforts have inspired them to ‘lift up their heads and rejoice and put their trust in God’. No matter our circumstances, we all need to repent and ‘turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart,’ with faith that ‘he will deliver us.'”

  05:54 Beautiful. Stephan, with that, we’re Mosiah 7, 8, 9, and 10. These are long chapters. We’ve got a lot to cover here. We’re excited for you to walk us through it.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 06:04 Thank you. Sometimes, people discuss what it means to really be a human. What is it at the heart of what it means to be a human? For example, some people might say we’re primarily thinking beings. That’s probably helpful on some level. Other people might say no, the best way to understand a human is through their biology. What is the genetics, the DNA that they’re made up of? Some people say no, maybe what a human is is you can really understand who someone is based on the culture that they come from.

  06:30 And all of those are maybe helpful on some level in telling us something about what it means to be human. Now, of course, as Latter-day Saints, and as our dear prophet has reminded us, we are primarily children of God, and when we join His church, we then become children of the covenant, and disciples of Jesus Christ. That’s first and foundational, and that’s the primary way that we see ourselves. Some scholars have pointed out that humans are also storytelling creatures as well. That might be another element of what it means to be human, is we see the world and live in the world in stories. In fact, I have a quote from a scholar that says this: “Man or woman is in his actions and practice, as well as in his fictions, essentially a storytelling animal. I can only answer the prior question of what story or stories do I find myself a part.”

  07:22 It’s amazing, because I’ve noticed that with my own small children. They’re very active, but one of the ways that they’ll really stop and engage and listen is when I read them a story or tell them a story. There’s something about that that really is at the heart of what it means to be a human. Some of the sweetest moments are front porch, summer night, crickets, stars, and you’re laughing and telling stories. Or you’re at a restaurant and there’s bread, oil, vinegar, and you’re laughing and telling stories. Or maybe there’s a youth group sitting around a fire and they’re telling stories of faith.

  07:56 Today, we’re going to look, really, at how stories influence us, how they change us, how they determine the way we act in the world, in a lot of ways. And these aren’t just powerful stories we’re about to read, but as these chapters unfold, we’re going to see how the stories we choose to take up and believe affect us in profound ways. So, the little refrain I’d like to say throughout our time together is, and I got this from another scholar I’ll quote later, “Your story determines your possibilities.” Let’s get into the story.

  08:27 Mosiah 7 takes place around 121 BC. And you mentioned this earlier, Hank, about 70 to 80 years earlier, in 200 BC, a group of people, a group of Nephites, wanted to return to the land of Lehi-Nephi, and the group that went south to try to find their original land of inheritance had not been heard of in a while. People in Zarahemla began to ask about this group that went south, and King Mosiah granted that 16 men would be allowed to try to go search for these lost Nephites.

  08:59 So, right now we have this little adventure story that we’re starting off with. If we’re going to make this into a movie, it would be The Story of the Lost Nephites, or something like that. Sometimes people have said that every story is either a person going on an adventure, or a stranger coming to town. And what we get in Mosiah 7 through 10 is actually both. We’re going to get both of these kinds of stories here in these chapters.

  09:22 We’ll start off in verse 3. “And it came to pass that on the morrow they started to go up.” Now, it’s interesting the text says to go up, when they’re going south. The reason why it says they’re going up is because they’re going up to the land of Nephi, which is higher in elevation, and the Book of Mormon is perfectly consistent on that. “Having with them one Ammon.” Now, this is not the Ammon that we see as the missionary in Alma 17. This is a different Ammon. “He being a strong and mighty man and a descendant of Zarahemla.” He’s a Mulekite. “And he was also their leader.”

  09:56 “And now, they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even 40 days.” As soon as a scholar of ancient text sees the number 40 in a text, they’re going to start thinking of a few things. It could be that it was just 40 days, right?

Hank Smith: 10:16 40, yeah.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 10:17 And this is just a coincidence. But however, the ancients love numbers, they love to think about them. One scholar says 40 represents, quote, “important transitions.” Another scholar that I found said it represents, quote, “divinely ordained periods.” Israel wandered for 40 years in the wilderness and, interestingly enough, that story, that narrative is going to be talked about in this chapter. We’re going to see that reference.

  10:41 “And when they had wandered 40 days,” distances in the Book of Mormon are measured by time, not by some measure of distance, but it’s this amount of time passed, and that’s how they traveled. “And they came to a hill, which is north of the land of Shilom, and there they pitched their tents. And Ammon took three of his brethren, and their names were Amaleki, Helem, and Hem, and they went down into the land of Nephi. And behold, they met the king of the people who were in the land of Nephi, and in the land of Shilom.” Both of these were given to a man named Zeniff, who we’ll talk about later when we go to our flashback moment. “And they were surrounded by the king’s guard, and were taken, and were bound, and were committed to prison.”

  11:24 Limhi is living in fear and worry and concern, and he’s very anxious about the situation he’s in. “And it came to pass when they had been in prison two days.” Okay, so these three men were thrown in prison. “They were again brought before the king, and their bands were loosed; and they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions which he should ask them.” It’s like, thank you for the clarification, Mormon.

John Bytheway: 11:53 “Okay, you are now permitted… No, let me change that. You are commanded.”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 11:58 That might show how careful Mormon is about the language he uses as he’s telling these stories, his desire to be honest, and also help us to understand really what’s going on here.

John Bytheway: 12:09 What we hear in the church sometimes, “Did you volunteer or were you voluntold?” They were voluntold to answer the question.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 12:18 Eventually, King Limhi says, “I desire to know the cause whereby you were so bold as to come near the walls of the city, when I, myself, was with my guards without the gate?” This is an intense moment. “Who do you think you are? Showing up, and being so bold to come near me when I’m without the walls of the city?” Afterwards, Ammon says, “I am Ammon, and am a descendant of Zarahemla, and have come up out of the land of Zarahemla to inquire concerning our brethren.” If you were to pan on King Limhi’s face when he realizes, “Wow, this is the moment. This is the moment we’ve been praying for, hoping for, this is the deliverance we’ve been looking for.”

  13:02 It’s interesting that the way that God answered their prayers was by sending the search party. That sort of happened indirectly. There wasn’t this glorious revelation, per se, but the Lord was, we would assume, involved on some level. President Kimball, he said, “God does notice us, and He watches over us, but it is usually through another person that He meets our needs.” One of the most beautiful ways we can recognize the hand of the Lord in our lives is to look for it in the goodness of others towards us. Not only is it that person, but it’s the Savior Jesus Christ working through them to be a blessing in our lives.

Hank Smith: 13:43 So, oftentimes, I might see, where’s the hand of God? I haven’t seen Him in my life. You’re saying, look around you. All of these other hands are the hands of God.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 13:52 In that sense, small, little acts of kindness can be the Lord reminding us. He notices us, and He’s aware of us. So, Limhi rejoices, he gathers the people together all at the temple, and he says, “Rejoice.” Verse 19 of Mosiah 7. “Lift up your heads, and rejoice, and put your trust in God, in that God who was the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob.” Grant Hardy, a really well-known Book of Mormon scholar, he points out how this title is connected with Moses delivering Israel from bondage. “And also, that God who brought the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt, and caused that they should walk through the Red Sea on dry ground, and fed them with manna that they might not perish in the wilderness; and many more things did He do for them.”

  14:42 Now, what’s interesting is Limhi is drawing on the story of the Exodus. He says, “See? God used Moses, and He used great power to deliver Israel from bondage.” And the implication, we can assume, at least on some level, is that he might be pointing to say, “Hey, He’s going to deliver us. He’s going to deliver us.” I’ve even read some scholarship that… In the same miraculous, non-forceful, non-violent way that God delivered Israel from Egypt, He’s also going to deliver these Nephites from being in bondage to the Lamanites.

Hank Smith: 15:19 What a great point, that he’s even studying this story beforehand, saying, “What did they do? How did they get out of bondage? Here it is. Here’s our Moses.”

John Bytheway: 15:30 And then in verse 20, “that same God” also, I’m adding the also, “has brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem.” He’s saying, “Look, He did it for them, He did it for us, our fathers, and He can do it again.” I just love that he’s using a scripture story to build up faith, which tells us something about Limhi.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 15:50 Yeah, absolutely. And to quote another scholar, they say this, “Stories open possibilities to our imagination. The quality of those possibilities is vital to the quality of our future. A person without access to certain stories is a person without hope, without social vision.” So, to go back to our little refrain, your story determines your possibilities. This is one of the reasons why it’s so important to deeply feast upon the Word of God, because as we study the scriptures, not just in a general way, but specifically, with meaningful study practices, we will be open to the ways that God can work in our lives, and new and exciting possibilities that He’ll do that. I’d love to hear you think about this and talk about this, but if there was one scriptural story you wish you thought about more, that you wish you remembered more, that you wish you drew upon more, which scriptural story do you wish was a little bit more planted in your heart and mind? “I wish I remembered that more.”

John Bytheway: 16:49 I was thinking of the story of Adam offering sacrifices, and the angel coming and saying, “Why are you doing this? Why are you offering sacrifices?” Adam saying, “I know not, save the Lord commanded me.” I want my kids to know that story. We want everything to make sense; because so many things in the gospel make sense, we want everything to make sense. The “Nephi went forth”, 1 Nephi 4:6, “not knowing beforehand”. “I was led by the Spirit, not knowing beforehand”, and sometimes we get the benefit of knowing why we’re doing things, but only after we do it. That’s what I learned from Adam, and I need to remember and teach that story more. That’s one that comes to mind.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 17:26 That’s so beautiful, especially because we live in a culture that says, “Everything has to be explained to me. I need to know all of it. I need you to explain it from beginning to end.” In a sense, if that’s the way we think about the world, then explanation and reason becomes our God. But if God is really the ultimate source of our life, and truth, and everything, then it’s enough if He commands it. It’s enough, if He’s really the source of what I’m going to do in this world. I agree, John, that’s a beautiful story, and goes against some of the cultural currents we see in our time.

Hank Smith: 17:59 I’ve been searching my mind as you ask this question. This is a fantastic question, Stephan, and when a teacher asks such a good question, this is just to throw this out there to those of you who are teachers, ask great questions, but then give time. So often in the church, we ask a great question, then we don’t like that awkward pause. “Here’s this awesome question, what scripture story would you wish stuck with you in your heart more?” And then we wait for three and a half seconds and say, “Okay, nobody? Let’s move on.”

  18:29 What came to my mind is the story of the brother of Jared, and how he was very flawed. He’s a flawed guy, as you read through. He petitions the Lord and the Lord says, “Whatever you do, don’t stop when you get to the other side of these waters.” And he stops. And then he doesn’t pray. Yet he has this incredible, transcendent experience that basically becomes the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. Elder Holland said it was declared that ordinary people with ordinary challenges can pass through the veil, and have transcendent spiritual experiences. I think I would love to keep that in my mind more, that I can go from the profane, the mundane, to the grand and beautiful transcendent.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 19:19 For me, that’s at the heart of the Restoration, is this idea that revelation and access to hearing God’s voice, and sometimes even in profound ways, is available to anyone who’s ready to receive it, paraphrasing the prophet Joseph there. So many times, we put footnotes on our own capacities, and say, “Oh, I’m not the kind of person that could really hear the voice of the Lord.” But our beloved prophet has reminded us, seek to really hear His voice in your life. King Limhi continues, Mosiah 7:20, “And again, that same God has brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, and has kept and preserved His people even until now; and behold, it is because of our iniquities and abominations that He has brought us into bondage.” He’s going to be more specific in a second about really what happened there.

  20:06 He continues, we’ll skip to verse 26. “And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God.” Grant Hardy suggests that man of God, in the Old Testament, refers to a prophet whose every word comes true. “Who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ.” So, what’s one of the most fascinating things about the Book of Mormon is that in the Book of Mormon, the wicked are often religious people who are not centered on Jesus Christ, and they ignore the living prophet. What’s interesting is those two characteristics you often see, they’re very religious, but they don’t place their faith in Christ, and they cast out the living prophet. And central to our belief is faith in Jesus Christ and listening to a living prophet. These people, they killed a prophet who was testifying of Jesus Christ, and King Limhi thinks that is at the heart of why they were punished in such a serious way.

  21:05 “And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon Him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon Him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth.” Sometimes we read a text like this and we think, “Man, this is not the way I normally talk about the Godhead.” But it seems like the ancients were really interested in showing that the Father and the Son are one, on some level. This idea that the Son of God came to Earth, that’s the heart of our story. Yes, there are lots of beautiful and powerful scripture stories, but the heart of our story is that the Son of God came to Earth to redeem us, and when that’s central to our story, it changes everything. It changes everything.

  22:04 For example, if someone gets their worth from their work, they’re always going to feel like there’s someone better at work than them, or they’ll always feel tired. They’ve got to do more and more and more. If they get their worth from their beauty, as they get older and older, and feel the effects of age, they’re going to feel deeply threatened. If they get their worth from their wealth, they’ll always be trying to find ways to make money, or compare themselves to other people. But if we get our worth from the fact that God loves us so much that He sent His Son to die for us, that is enough to build a life on. That will always be true. That’s the kind of foundation that says, “This is what I’m worth to God, that He loves me that much.” Or some people feel deep guilt for mistakes or sins they’ve committed, and they don’t know what to do about that.

  22:50 If, central to their story, is the idea that God sent His Son to die for us, there’s a way for them to feel deeply clean and pure again. Or at a funeral, of course, death is sad, and we mourn for those we love, but if the center of our story is that Jesus Christ came to die and was resurrected, then death is not the end of the story. And also, people are looking for meaning and for purpose, and if the center of our story is Gethsemane and Golgotha, that means that I’m loved by God so much that He sent His Son to come to this Earth, and that’s the center of my meaning, is to return love to God, and to embody that love out into the world to others, to love God and to love others. Truly, our story determines our possibilities.

Hank Smith: 23:43 This is fantastic.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 23:45 A scholar named Alister McGrath from Oxford, he says this, “We are called,” he’s speaking as Christians. He says, “We are called to out-narrate the dominant stories that shape our culture, by exposing their weaknesses, or showing how they are enfolded by our own, or how they are eclipsed by a more luminous and compelling story.” We could go out in the world and show people evidences for the resurrection and for the Book of Mormon, and that’s fine and that’s okay. But I think what’s more powerful is if we tell people how the gospel story, and specifically the restored gospel story, is not only true, but it’s the most beautiful and illuminating and powerful way to live in this world, that it gives meaning and depth and purpose to our life, and it fills us with light and love, and truly shows us how we can live in a way that will fill our life with joy.

John Bytheway: 24:41 Beautifully said, Stephan. I’m glad you said that, because sometimes we might repeat the storyline, but boy, don’t miss that comment that he’s making in 26 and 27. This is, as you put it, the heart of the story, that God will come among men, and He will come upon the face of the Earth, and He’ll die for our sins. When you’ve got the storyline and then the doctrine, boy, there’s the heart of the doctrine. I’m intrigued what you guys think. Verse 26, “a prophet of the Lord have they slain.” I’m like, “It was your dad.” He calls him “they”. So, in comes Ammon, and says, “I’m so glad I’m yet permitted to speak, and we’ve come to inquire after Zeniff.” And Limhi goes, “Grandpa?” “That’s your grandpa?” “Yeah.” “Oh, I’m so glad that you’re here. Now, I know my brethren are yet alive, and I’m going to rejoice, and on the morrow, I’ll cause my people to rejoice, and we killed a prophet.” “You what?” “Okay, that was dumb, I know. It was my dad.” That’s the way I can think of it happening.

Hank Smith: 25:39 “You what?”

John Bytheway: 25:42 “I sent a group out to try to find Zarahemla, they couldn’t, but they found this.” And it is such an interesting story. But you have helped me to see, don’t miss the heart of the story right there.

Hank Smith: 25:54 Speaking of stories, Stephan, one thing I really try to point out when I teach the Book of Mormon is that we have a storyteller in the small plates that we’ve been studying so far. 1 and 2 Nephi, Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, we’re hearing a first person account. When we pick up the Book of Mosiah, it’s now a third person account. We have someone telling this story. And he’s so good at it, we almost forget he’s there. Everything is coming through the lens of Mormon, who’s living hundreds of years after this event. When I personally read the Book of Mormon, I’ve learned over the years to try to see it with new eyes, like fresh eyes, like you’re a brand new reader.

  26:39 So, as we got into chapter 7 here, there are some names, if you’re a new reader, you’ve never even heard. “I am Limhi, the son of Noah, who was the son of Zeniff.” If you’re a first-time reader, I have no idea who any of these people are. I guess back in Omni, Amaleki told us about a large group of people that left, got in some sort of contention, came back with less people than they left with, and then he says they took another group and they left again. As I get to, like you said, King Mosiah, son of Benjamin, says, “Let’s go find those people.” And now we’re, all of a sudden, hearing names, Limhi, Noah, Zeniff, and as you pointed out, “We killed a prophet.” Those of us who’ve read the Book many times, we know who that is, but if you’re reading through fresh eyes, this is an exciting chapter that’s opening up what has happened, who are these people, and what happened to them? I like that we’re talking about stories. I’ve grown this obsession with Mormon, the storyteller. How is he doing this? Why is he organizing it this way?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 27:47 That’s really important what you’re saying, Hank. We’ll go into this more in chapter 9, but there is an inspired author who’s making decisions about how this story should be told. And he wants us to gain certain insights, and see certain things. In a real sense, prophets are storytellers, they’re inspired storytellers, and they help us to see both the story of God, and here in these scriptures, they unfold the scriptural narrative for us, and they do it in ways that open up how we can see God working in the world.

Hank Smith: 28:18 I’m guessing half our listeners, as you just said that, it happened to them what happened to me, which a picture of President Monson came into my mind. Prophets are storytellers. Much like the Savior, that was a gift that President Monson had.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 28:31 Yeah. And we see that throughout the Restoration, and throughout all dispensations, is the prophets will use inspired storytelling to change the hearts of people and to testify of His Son.

Hank Smith: 28:43 As a teacher and as a trainer of teachers, I frequently tell people, if you can give a lecture or tell a story, tell the story. I know that you could spit out exactly what you want your students to know and think, but if that story covers that same idea, tell the story.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 29:03 Yeah. We have it on good authority, at least with the synoptics, but the scholars say that about a third of what Jesus said were parables, were stories. Okay, Limhi, he continues his speech, verse 28. “And now because he said this,” speaking of Abinadi, “they put him to death, and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions? But if you will turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart, and put your trust in Him, and serve Him with all diligence of mind, if you do this, He will, according to His own will and pleasure, deliver you out of bondage.”

  29:47 At the heart of the story of Gethsemane and Golgotha and the garden tomb is we believe in a God of deliverance, who will save us, who will take us out of addiction and anger and fear, and I don’t know if it’s in this life or in the next, but the hero of the story, the Lord Jesus Christ, is a deliverer. And if we do what King Limhi is saying here, if we turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart, deliverance will happen someday, in the Lord’s timing.

John Bytheway: 30:16 I like that Limhi’s not considered a prophet, he’s a king in a tough circumstance, but look at him testify. Wow. Sure sounds like a prophet. If the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus, then by that definition, this guy has a testimony of Christ, doesn’t he?

Hank Smith: 30:34 Yeah.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 30:35 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 30:37 You’re right on, John. Ammon’s got to be hearing this story saying, “I got to know more. What happened?” And that’s us as the reader, are going, “I hope they explain these things.”

John Bytheway: 30:50 Sometimes I’ve been asked this question, like in verse 31, okay, this is a little off the beaten path of what we’re talking about, but “again he saith, ‘If my people shall sow filthiness they shall reap the east wind, which bringeth immediate destruction.'” And I’m like, what is the east wind? In my own reading of commentaries, I found this. “East wind is an old world cultural symbol. The north wind,” now think you’re living in the Holy Land. “The north wind is cold, the west wind, from over the Mediterranean Sea, is moist, the south wind is warm, and the east wind, which crosses the sandy wastes of the Arabian Desert before reaching Palestine, can be violent and destructive.” That’s from Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon. It’s interesting, they still were remembering that phrase, the east wind, as another way to describe here comes trouble.

Hank Smith: 31:47 Exodus 10:13, “The Lord said to Moses, ‘Stretch out thy hand over Egypt over the locusts, that they may come upon the land of Egypt, and eat every herb of the land.’ And Moses stretched forth his rod over Egypt, and the Lord brought an east wind upon all that day and all that night and that morning.” East wind brought the locusts. Nice.

John Bytheway: 32:08 Maybe that just became a metaphor, because I’ll tell you, I think in our Old Testament year, somebody made the comment that the Exodus story, that deliverance story, is repeated more than any other story throughout the Old Testament and the New. And here we are in the Book of Mormon, talking about it again, how the deliverance of Moses, how the Lord helped him deliver Israel.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 32:30 Yeah, it’s interesting you say that, because one of the beautiful things about the gospel story is how it alludes to other stories. In fact, Jesus could have chosen Day of Atonement to be sacrificed, and to offer atonement for our sins, but He chose Passover, which points us back to the Exodus. Every single week, when we partake in the sacrament, we’re echoing the Exodus. If, at the heart of our story, is the idea that God is a God of deliverance, then the Exodus story has to be one of the central stories we take up in our identity, that this is the God we believe in.

John Bytheway: 33:04 Elder Holland said, once asked the question, “Do we see the sacrament as our Passover?” Which I’ve always loved that statement. This is our Passover. “These feasts and things were to help us remember, because we’re forgetful.”

Hank Smith: 33:20 Stephan, as we move from 7 to 8, King Benjamin dies. Mosiah, probably named after his grandfather, sends Ammon. “Hey, these people have been gone 80 years. Go find out what happened.” He heads down to the land of Lehi-Nephi, where those people that left 80 years ago, that’s the direction they were heading. You would think that after 80 years, if your neighbor leaves, give or take 70 or 80 years, you might think, “What happened to them?” He goes to find them, he gets arrested, and finds out that the king who arrested him is the grandson of the guy who left 80 years ago, and all sorts of things have happened in the last 80 years.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 34:02 Yeah, that’s right. Absolutely. Great recap, Hank. You’re a good storyteller.

Hank Smith: 34:06 Yeah, hey.

John Bytheway: 34:07 You should give talks and stuff.

Hank Smith: 34:09 Yeah, I should try that one day. Dozens of people will listen. All right, Stephan, where do we go from here, then?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 34:18 So, we’re in Mosiah 8, and we’ll pick up in verse 2. It just keeps going, flowing on. It says, “And he,” Limhi “caused that Ammon should stand up before the multitude, and rehearse unto them all that had happened unto their brethren from the time that Zeniff went up out of the land even until the time that he himself came up out of the land.” Where they say, “Hey, tell us a story. What’s happened back in the homeland since we’ve been gone? Recap that for us.”

  34:43 Now, thankfully, Mormon’s a good storyteller, and he doesn’t make us listen to everything that we’ve just read in the Book of Mormon again, he actually cuts that out, and says this in verse 3. “And he also rehearsed unto them the last words which King Benjamin had taught them, and explained to them to the people of King Limhi, so that they might understand all the words which he spake.” This is more evidence that King Benjamin’s speech is central to Book of Mormon thought and belief. You’re going to see it here, later on in Mosiah 26. The reason they’re going to say that some people fall away from the church is, “Oh, they didn’t hear King Benjamin’s speech.” This is a central sermon in the Book of Mormon.

  35:20 We then learn that King Limhi had sent 43 people to try to go back and find the land of Zarahemla, so when they were down south, at some point they sent 43 people to go back and try to find the land of Zarahemla. Instead, they went past Zarahemla accidentally, and found a land full of bones and a land of desolation, and they found a record and they couldn’t translate it. King Limhi, he says this. “And I say unto thee again: knowest thou of anyone that can translate? For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language.” This is verse 12 of chapter 8. “For, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came.” This is a very meta moment in the Book of Mormon. “Or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction.”

  36:22 Quite literally as we’re reading the Book of Mormon, we’re reading the history of a people that were destroyed, and in that history, they find a record of a people that had been destroyed. And the thing that they’re interested most in is what caused their destruction. I could be wrong, but maybe perhaps the reason why Mormon is highlighting this is because later on in the Book of Mormon, he’s going to tell us the kind of thing that’s going to lead to the destruction of the people.

  36:50 For example, in Helaman 2, Mormon says it’ll be the Gadianton robbers that will prove the destruction of this people. And as we know overall, it’s the pride and the wickedness and the secret combinations that Mormon wants to highlight that cause the destruction of these people. This is one of the most powerful aspects of scripture study, is when we start to identify with scriptural characters or scriptural events. Often as gospel teachers we’ll say, “Hey, let’s get to application.” And that’s really important, but perhaps identification precedes powerful application. When I start to identify with the events or characters, it will convict me, sometimes, in very powerful ways.

  37:32 There’s a quote from Richard Lloyd Anderson, speaking of parables, and let’s read this, but apply this to the true stories of scriptures. Watch what he says. “The parable is a teaching method, recognizing the fact that one sees his own weaknesses better by viewing others who display the same weaknesses. Even the Lord was sparing in confrontation, generally reserving it until He had offered many other opportunities to understand. Even then, His final warnings to His enemies use the case system to force them to think about His message. This technique should be remembered. An effective method is to use third person examples that hit close to home. The technique works on the premise that stimulating thought is the most effective teaching tool. It avoids one-sided scorn that too often triggers the self-defense reflexes and helps induce desired self-analysis instead.”

  38:28 Here we are, reading this story about a people who find a book, and they’re like, “Wow, what caused their destruction?” Hopefully, hopefully, as modern people, we don’t miss a potential message from that, that there is a book that contains the destruction of a people, and it’s a warning, an indirect warning to us to not fall into pride, to not fall into the kinds of sins that cause the Nephite civilization to be destroyed.

Hank Smith: 38:52 Stephan, do you think these plates that become the Book of Ether, Mormon, he knows he’s going to abridge those one day? And he dies before it can be done, so Moroni does it. I wonder if he’s, “I’m going to throw this in here, a little teaser for what might be coming.”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 39:10 That could be it, absolutely. Interestingly enough, Moroni chooses to highlight things in the Jaredite record that really resonate with the rest of the Book of Mormon. Again, to quote Grant Hardy, it might be that Moroni is trying to highlight some of the main stories and ideas that Mormon was trying to highlight in his record as well, with the Jaredites.

Hank Smith: 39:31 Stephan, Limhi’s saying, “We fell into slavery, bondage to the Lamanites, and we sent a group to look for Zarahemla to get us out.” Did they think they actually found Zarahemla, or did they think, “Oh, we didn’t find it, but we found this other city”?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 39:48 Yeah, they actually thought it was Zarahemla. They found this land of desolation and bones, but then they found this record, and now they’re interested in getting it translated.

Hank Smith: 39:57 It must’ve been surprising for Ammon to show up from Zarahemla when they’re like, “That can’t be. We’ve been to Zarahemla, it’s been destroyed.” And Ammon’s thinking, “I don’t think so. I was there.”

John Bytheway: 40:11 We have evidence of that. Mosiah 7:14 when King Limhi says, “Now I know my brethren are yet alive.” Because, maybe I thought they weren’t, because we found the land covered with dead men’s bones. Well, there goes our rescue. But now I know my brethren are yet alive.

Hank Smith: 40:28 Stephan, that plays into even more of Limhi’s response that you showed us, that the camera pans on his face, when he probably had lost all hope. Because maybe finding Zarahemla was their last hope to get out of bondage, and he’s thinking, “It’s over.” And then Ammon comes. The impossible happens.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 40:52 Right, we believe in a God who works through seemingly impossible situations.

John Bytheway: 40:57 He’s really good at the impossible, yeah.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 40:59 Right? Yes, yes. This is why the daughter of Jairus story, because when things absolutely look like there’s no possible way that things could get better, our Father in heaven finds a way to provide, and He always will. He always will.

Hank Smith: 41:14 I love what you’ve done here, in letting us see Limhi’s situation when Ammon shows up. No wonder he’s kind of angry, that some guy’s walking outside his city.

John Bytheway: 41:24 “Who are you, and why were you so bold as to approach me?” I want to add something else, too. At the end of verse 12, Stephan, you mentioned, “I have desires to know the cause of their destruction.” I’m thinking of, listen, I’m a king over this people. I am new at this. I inherited a mess. I don’t want my people to be destroyed. I want to know how these people got destroyed, and then I have an arrow that points me to the next page, some people scroll, I actually have ancient pages, to verse 19, the king, responding to Ammon, says, “Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates.” And that’s repeating. “I need to know what happened to them. I’m trying to be a king. What happened to these people?”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 42:09 Yeah, and that makes sense. And Limhi is identifying with this story. Before he could really apply it, he’s seen how he might fit into it in some way, and start to see himself into it. This is one of the most powerful ways to teach our families and friends, and even to study ourselves, is to identify which scripture stories, or stories from living prophets, or church history, might help in a specific situation.

  42:33 For example, let’s say that someone’s going through an impossible situation that seems a very difficult task. They might study 1 Nephi 3, with Nephi getting the brass plates. Let’s say that someone’s preparing to serve a mission. They might study Alma 17 through 22. Let’s say someone’s struggling with faith. They might look at Alma 32. Or, let’s say a family has too much contention at home. They might study 4 Nephi. And then rather than directly coming at people and saying, “Hey, these are the ways we need to change.” Let the Word of God do the heavy lifting. Let the scriptures point out places where we could get better. And their defenses will go down, they’ll read these ancient stories that they know are not directed to them, and then they’ll start to identify with the characters and situations, and the Holy Spirit will be able to work in their hearts, and show them ways that they can get better.

Hank Smith: 43:21 Like you said, a family has a lot of contention. Instead of studying 4 Nephi, let’s say they go right at the cause of contention. What is it about human beings, that we’re less receptive to that?

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 43:34 That’s a really good question. The best I can tell is the nature of our defensiveness is to always have readymade excuses on why we’re not a certain way. When we are acting in ways that are not in line with gospel principles, we almost always, if not always, have justifications or rationalizations on why we act like that. So, when someone brings it up, we have readymade reasons why we’re not acting that way. And often can cut through that self-deception if we can discover it for ourselves, rather than having someone point it out to us.

Hank Smith: 44:10 A family has a lot of contention. You’re saying, let’s not go directly at these kids, let’s study 4 Nephi. Would it be a mistake to study 4 Nephi and then go at them, or do I leave it out there? Do I leave 4 Nephi out there hanging, or do I bring it back and say, “How can we apply this to our family?” Which is a little more like, “Hey, you got a problem.”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 44:30 That’s a really good question. It sort of depends on how the situation goes. If the defenses go down and the Spirit comes there, then of course people can be more open and more direct. But it doesn’t do much good to be very direct with people if we know they’re going to be defensive. So, we have to read the situation, the state of their heart, and hopefully, there will be other things that will soften and open up doors for people to be open and honest about ways we can be better.

Hank Smith: 44:58 It reminds me of a story Elder Ballard used to tell about a man who had never worked with horses. Oh, he decided he would show his wife how to teach a horse to be led, so he figured all he would have to do is attach the rope to the horses and just pull, and horse will just come right along. But he said to his friend’s surprise, the horse resisted. He pulled harder, and the horse resisted even more. And then he pulled so hard and he said, after they repeated this process several times, he had successfully taught the horse how to fall over. All he had to do was pick up the rope and not even pull, and the horse would fall on its side. I’ve always thought about that as a parent, that when we come at people, when we go to force, it’s automatic, right? Automatic. I’m going to stand my ground. Even though probably not the smartest thing to do, I’m going to stand my ground. So, I like what you said here, is that.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 45:58 The defenses, yeah. And part of the reason, that, is because we are agents, and we want to own our own decisions. If we feel like we’re doing something because someone else told us to do it, we don’t feel like we’re doing that because we want to. A story allows me to make righteous decisions for myself.

John Bytheway: 46:15 I’ve learned over the years that when you ever have the words “you should” or “we should” or “we ought”, that’s one of those you’re feeling. Instead, as Stephan said, you tell a story, you hold up, “Look at how this person behaved.” And all of us supply our own, inside, internally, unspoken, “I need to do that. I need to be that way. I should be that way.” Then you don’t have to say anything, you just, “Is that an amazing story?” That’s all you have to say. And everybody, “Wow.” They do it themselves. And I think the Spirit nudges us, and that’s easier to take than some other imperfect person saying “you should” or “we should”.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 46:57 Yeah. This is why regular scripture study with our families, or by ourselves, is so important, because if someone perceives that I’m telling them a story to try to get them to change, it’s as if I’m talking to them directly. That’s why consistent scripture study naturally let these things seep in and start to work upon us. If I say, “All right, everyone, we’re having a special scripture study on 4 Nephi.” And we haven’t had scripture study in six years or whatever. “Wait a minute.” That might-

John Bytheway: 47:26 “Okay, what’s he trying to tell us?”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 47:27 Right, right, right.

John Bytheway: 47:29 I think it’s one of the reasons that EFY/FSY works, is those kids don’t know each other; often, the teacher, the counselor, doesn’t know them; and they know there’s not a motive behind this story. “Ah, he must have talked to my dad, that’s why he’s telling…” They don’t, that’s not there. And they evaluate everything they hear more honestly. I think it’s one of the reasons it works.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 47:51 I agree.

John Bytheway: 47:52 Is because they will listen to that story differently, knowing, “That person doesn’t know me.”

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 47:57 Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, so speaking of stories, Limhi, he desires to know the story of this lost civilization, the Jaredites, and he needed someone who could translate. Ammon says, “I know someone.” So, speaking of King Mosiah, back up in the land of Zarahemla, back north there, Ammon says this in Mosiah 8:16. “And Ammon said that a seer”. Now, this sounds really obvious, but let’s do some grammar really fast. When we put “E-R” at the end of a word, it means “one who”. So, a swimmer is one who swims. A runner is one who runs. A seer is one who sees.

  48:34 And Ammon said that a seer is “a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have.” That’s quite the statement right there. “Except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God. But a seer can know of things which are past.” In this case, it would be the record of the Jaredites. But we also see this in our dispensation, Joseph Smith learning of the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Moses, or the Book of Abraham. “Also of things which are to come.” Think John the Revelator, or many of the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants. Or think about the Family Proclamation as well. “And by them shall all things be revealed, or rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.” What a tremendous blessing it is, to have seers among us today.

  49:34 Verse 18. “Thus God has provided a means that man, through faith, might work mighty miracles; therefore he becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings.” Which is such a beautiful principle, that when God calls seers, prophets, seers, and revelators, their primary responsibility is to be a benefit to their fellow beings, to teach us in such a way that they are a blessing to us. The prophets and seers and revelators, the text says they’re going to be a great benefit to their fellow beings. And if you think about the sacrifice, and time, and effort, and energy the leaders of the church put into leading us and guiding us by the voice of God, how grateful we are that they have sacrificed so much to give us the Lord’s guidance in these latter-days.

  50:18 The job description of a prophet probably has some tough parts about it. For example, throughout scriptural history, prophets are there to keep people and cultures and societies within the bounds that the gospel has set. And sometimes that means they have to warn us. Elder Christofferson, he says this. “I have long been impressed by, and have also felt, the yearning love of the prophets of God in their warnings against sin. They are not motivated by a desire to condemn. Their true desire mirrors the love of God; in fact, it is the love of God. They love those to whom they are sent, whoever they may be and whatever they may be like. Just as the Lord, His servants do not want anyone to suffer the pains of sin and poor choices.”

  51:10 In my own life, I feel the closest to people who are not afraid to be honest with me, even if that means being a little tough with me. The people that are just always nice, it’s sort of superficial, but when I know someone, and they can go to tough places with me, and tell me some things that are kind of hard for me to have to hear, that’s how I know that someone really cares about me, and is someone that’s close to me. I’m thankful that the prophets are not seeking the approval of the world, but they’re willing to teach the truth, even if it’s tough to hear sometimes.

John Bytheway: 51:41 I think that almost every General Conference, we’re going to hear some talks that Jacob might describe as that “healeth the wounded soul”. And we might hear others that tell it like it is, and tell us we got to step it up, and I love that. What a blessing, to have somebody love you enough to be willing to say, “You can do better, and you know you can.” That’s a blessing.

Hank Smith: 52:06 I can hear President Faust’s voice. President Oaks, that Good, Better, Best talk. I bet we all remember where we were when Elder Holland gave that Book of Mormon talk, Safety for the Soul, right?

John Bytheway: 52:19 Oh, man. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 52:20 These are life-changing things. So, that verse, Mosiah 8:18, I’m glad you brought that up, Stephan, go search your memories. For me, all of these wonderful feelings of gratitude come up for prophets and apostles of the latter-days.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 52:36 We live in a world where people have rejected the idea of authority or authority figures, but no matter what, everyone chooses prophets. Everyone looks to someone to say, “Hey, this is what I’m going to look at as sources of truth and insight.” And I’m so thankful that the Lord has called faithful and humble and meek servants in a world that is increasingly losing a lack of quality leadership. I’m grateful for a steady voice, a steady voice to point us to the Savior.

Hank Smith: 53:06 Love it. I’d follow those 15 men and their wives anywhere. Something happens here, Stephan, that’s kind of strange. When I’m in chapter 8, I’m in 121 BC. When I’m in chapter 9, I’m in 200 BC. I went backwards 80 years.

Dr. Stephan Taeger: 53:24 Yeah. So, here we get quite the dramatic flashback, and the flashback is actually going to last from Mosiah 9 all the way through 22. This is a side note, this is some evidence for the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I love the Prophet Joseph Smith, but when you read his own handwriting, he will often misspell some of the most basic words. The idea that he could make up this story on the spot with all of these complicated backstories, and plot twists, and connecting names, and geography, and even elevation of geography we’ve talked about, seems very, very untenable. I know scholars who have been scholars for a long time, and they have not written 533 pages over years and years of doing research and study. The fact that people claim, “Yeah, that farm boy from upstate New York came up with 533 pages of storyline.” Seems pretty untenable to me.