John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Jennifer Brinkerhoff Platt, Mosiah chapters one through three.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Jen, you said something earlier about part of serving others is taking care of ourselves. This was Elder Ballard years ago. He said, “Water cannot be drawn from an empty well.” And if you’re not setting aside time for what replenishes you, you will have less and less to give to others, even to your children. When we take care of ourselves, we are still serving others, because we are creating energy that we can give then in more service, so it doesn’t do anyone any good to wear my life out and not take care of myself, because I’m not going to be able to serve if I wear the machine out.

John Bytheway: 00:49 We run past that verse pretty fast because we’re all used to it. People for millennia have tried to figure out how to best serve God. And King Benjamin just in one phrase answers it, because one school of thought is, “Man, let’s get away from all this wicked world. Let’s go build a big fortress in the mountains somewhere, take our sacred books with us, and just get away from all this wickedness.” Yeah, but we can’t serve our brothers and sisters if we’re not among them. It’s kind of like, what did Jesus say? “I pray not to take them out of the world, but to keep them from evil.” So got to be a light to the world and be salt of the earth, but not remove ourselves from them, and just one little sentence goes by so fast. You want to know how to serve God? Serve each other.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 01:35 Yep. And that takes a lot of work. I spend a lot of time listening to Relief Society Presidents asking me, “How are we going to get people to minister to each other?” It seems to be the question, and it’s a matter of learning to care about people, paying attention to them, listening to them, hearing what matters to them, and being responsive and showing up. Just in this week, I’ve had two friends randomly call and say, “Jen, I’m calling to ask how I can lighten your load.” They didn’t know I had a whole lot going on. They weren’t aware of my circumstances and the overwhelm that I was in.

  02:17 But to get that phone call, the first was last Saturday, the phone call was, “I want to know why the Holy Ghost is keeping you on my mind and that I’m not going to be satisfied until I talk to you. What can I do to lighten your load? What can I take?” I had been sorting through some things that I was trying to figure out how to delegate, and her name had come to my mind, but I thought I didn’t want to burden her. She said, “Consider it taken care of and done.” The other friend, same thing, “Okay, I know you’ve got some things going on with some assignments both at work and church and this. I’m here to take that from you, and don’t worry again about it.”

  02:57 It means everything. It means everything that they would say, “I see her and I see that things are happening for her. I have a little bit of time, and I want to take that for her.” That’s what it looks like. It’s knowing each other. It’s being aware of each other. It’s watching and observing and then making phone calls. It’s the reason we need to know how to receive revelation so that we can say, “I know what the Holy Ghost feels like and I’m going to be so quick to respond when the prompt comes to say, how can I help? What can I do?” And I think part of that is having the courage to say, “Thank you. This is what you can do for me.”

Hank Smith: 03:40 Over a decade ago, my sweet wife was pregnant with twins on bed rest. We had three little kids who were running around. She wanted to be up and doing and moving, but her doctor said, “If we’re going to do this right, and these twins are going to be born healthy, you’re going to have to stay in bed, stay on the couch.” One day she told me that she just wanted a little bit of chocolate. “Give me a little bit of chocolate. I’ll go back and lay down on the couch.” So she got up, she had her little five minutes off the couch to get something done, grab something to eat, and she could not find any chocolate anywhere. She used to hide it around the house, so then she would find it and be like, “Oh, wow, a little treat.” And I had not been replenishing the secret chocolate supply while she’d been on bed rest.

  04:24 I didn’t even know it existed. She just kind of broke down. It wasn’t that she was concerned about the chocolate, it was just kind of the last thing, “I’m really tired.” Then she gets a text on her phone. Our neighbor, Janine Lewis, everybody needs a Janine Lewis in their life, send her a little message that said, “Hey, Sarah, I was thinking about you today and I left a little something for you on your doorstep.” Now, by the way, John, you and I know if a boy texts a boy and says, “I left a little something for you on your doorstep,” that is not a good text to receive.

John Bytheway: 04:56 I’m afraid to open the door.

Hank Smith: 04:57 Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 04:58 Really?

John Bytheway: 04:58 And go, “Okay, I better put on a helmet or something.”

Hank Smith: 05:01 Yeah. I do not know.

John Bytheway: 05:02 And goggles before I open the door.

Hank Smith: 05:04 But when Janine Lewis texts her, Sarah goes over to the door and there on our doorstep was a little miniature chocolate pie. My wife took it inside and said, “Thank the Lord for Janine Lewis, for listening to that quiet prompting.” It wasn’t a miracle, it wasn’t earth-shattering, but you’re right, Jen. When people come to our aid in those difficult times and when we allow people to come to our aid, because you could have said to your friends, “I’m fine. Don’t worry about me, I’m good.” But you opened up and said, “You know what? Actually I could use some help with this particular thing.” We bear one another’s burdens that they may be light.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 05:46 We thank them and we let them do it, and that for me has taken some work to be able to say, “Yes, will you do X, Y, and Z?”

John Bytheway: 05:55 I met somebody at a conference once. She showed me her phone and she said, “This comes up every morning.” And it was a question, who needs me today? Which I thought, “Wow.” It wasn’t, does anyone need me today? It was, okay, who? And that could be as simple as a text, maybe a chocolate pie, putting herself in that frame of mind the Lord could use her then to find somebody.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 06:17 Eyes to see.

Hank Smith: 06:19 And Jen, isn’t the opposite in verse 32, he says, “Beware contention”?

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 06:24 Yep.

Hank Smith: 06:25 It’s almost the exact opposite. “Serve each other and beware contention with each other, because you’ll list to obey the evil spirit.”

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 06:34 That’s exactly what Benjamin does here, is he says, “Let me show you the opposite.” This is what the absolute opposite’s going to look like, and it’s going to lead you in verse 39 to a final doom to endure a never-ending torment. In essence, what he’s done in, I would say, where’d you start is 32, 32 to 39 roughly is he saying these are the qualities of the natural man. This is what an enemy to God looks like. So when we get into Mosiah 3:19 and we may be saying, “Wait, that’s confusing language. What does it mean to be an enemy to God?” It means we’re contentious. We listen to Satan. We’re not repenting. We’re rejecting truth. We’re rebellious.

  07:21 I love the phrase in 36, “Ye do withdraw yourself from the spirit of the Lord.” You did this. You chose to withdraw from the Holy Ghost, and you’ve given no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s path. Do you think that’s the original covenant path? “That ye may be blessed, prospered and preserved.” You’re in open rebellion, verse 37, and there’s the phrase that got my attention. “You’ve becometh an enemy to all righteousness.” Pair it up with Mosiah 3:19 when we’re trying to understand what does it mean to be an enemy to God? Well, there you have it. It’s these attributes, these characteristics. It’s this idea of self-consuming and focused inward, contentious.

Hank Smith: 08:09 Yeah, you’re right, Jen. He says it again in Mosiah 2:38. If you don’t repent and die as an enemy to God, when he brings it up in Mosiah 3:19, that famous, famous verse-

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 08:20 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 08:21 … we’ve already read what it means in chapter two to be an enemy to God.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 08:25 That’s right. The language is consistent and the angel is bringing this message in chapter three, but Benjamin is very clear to say, “I want to show you what this means. This is what it looks like to be in opposition to God, to be an enemy to Him.” And that for us then to be able to say, “How do I remedy it? How quickly can I repent and say I want to turn my heart?” It’s all selfish. It’s all selfish and self-consumed, and it’s an awful situation that he’s described, but he doesn’t leave us there. In verse 41, “I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God.”

  09:10 And so what are the commandments? Love God, love His children. Keep your covenants and you will be happy. You’ll be blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual. And if they hold out faithful to the end, they’re received into heaven that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. Oh, remember, remember. And that word, President Kimball used to say that the most important word is remember. Why? Because it’s at the heart of covenant living. The heart of covenant living is to remember. Remember my relationship to God and what He’s asked me to do to bless His children so that I can be changed and sanctified, overcome the natural man or the fallen state, and become sanctified, a queen, a queen or a king where I’m in an exalted state.

John Bytheway: 10:03 Verse 41 seems to be a look-at-the-fruits type of verse. I’m just remembering Elder Holland saying, “The notable miracle has occurred in the lives of millions of Latter-day Saints,” and then he went, “That cannot be denied.” You look around and you see people and they’re not absent of trials, but you see people in a blessed and happy state in the midst of the ups and downs that all of us have. I like that verse a lot.

Hank Smith: 10:28 Both of you probably remember an older book, The Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute, and it talked about leadership. It made a, and I think King Benjamin exemplifies this, it made a distinction between formal authority, meaning you have to follow me because you have to because I’m the dad or I’m the boss or I pay the check, so you have to do what I say versus moral authority, which is people follow you because they want to, because you’ve earned a sense of trust in their life. And where do we come from as a parent or as a leader? Do we come from formal authority, where we kind of lean on the idea that people do what we say because they have to? Or do we take the time to earn moral authority in people’s lives where people follow because they want to? I can give you an easy example.

  11:30 I remember once doing the dishes, big pile of dishes, and there’s my daughter on the couch on her phone and I said, “Do you want to come help me with these dishes?” And like every good child, she said, “No.” I should have thought about my moral authority. Instead, where did I go? I went right to my formal authority. I made a new rule. Have you ever made a new rule? I don’t know if either of you have ever made a new rule on the spot as a parent, but I said, “Hey, guess what? New rule, she who does not help with the dishes does not keep her phone.” And she, “All right.” And she came over and helped, although she didn’t do it with as much enthusiasm as I’d hoped. Why? Because I was banking on my formal authority.

  12:11 Benjamin could say, “You do what I say because I’m king. You do what I say because I’m king.” But he doesn’t. They do it. Benjamin asks because they want to. As I see this, consider the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. He might even be talking about himself and his people, because all of the moral authority he’s earned has turned into this blessed and happy state instead of this controlling state.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 12:40 And isn’t it cool? You’ve got me thinking with that, Hank, that he operationalizes happiness for us. What is our expectation of what happiness should look like or feel like? That it’s not necessarily… And if you mark and go through and look at his life and the things that he’s done and experienced, that the happiness came from the relationship with God, and it wasn’t about the things that the world may say, “This will make you happy and this is what you should expect happiness to look like,” but rather your truest happiness in this form. So we have to say, “Where do I fit in the plan and how do I feel about God and what do I need to understand about Him, His nature and His character that I even want that?”

Hank Smith: 13:25 And that’s where chapter three comes in.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 13:28 That’s where chapter three comes in. Shall we?

Hank Smith: 13:30 Let’s go there.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 13:31 Chapter three, we’re now a third voice. We see in verse two that Benjamin says, “The things which I shall tell you are made known unto me by an angel from God. And he said unto me,” colon, we mark it again. We’ve got a new voice, and that the angel’s going to talk to us. He’s going to go all the way to verse 22.

Hank Smith: 13:59 This is like quote inception here.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 14:01 Yes.

Hank Smith: 14:01 We have Mormon who’s quoting Benjamin who’s quoting the angel.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 14:05 That’s right. We’ve got some layers going here, and he’s telling us that this is glad tidings of great joy, which we can expect Jesus to follow, because Jesus and joy are synonymous, but it’s a phrase that’s used elsewhere in introducing Jesus Christ and that the Lord has heard thy prayers in verse four. What do you think Benjamin was praying about, and how do we learn to pray in that way, that the answers that come to us are a result of the types of prayers that we’re offering?

Hank Smith: 14:42 Well, I’m going to write that in. What was he praying for? This was an answer to some prayer.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 14:49 Yeah. Do you remember during COVID when President Nelson prayed for us? It was on an appointed time and he prayed. And I remember the feeling of trust and confidence and hope, because I’d heard him pray for us. But what must Benjamin have been praying for and about? I want to witness, though, the reality of angels and that this is something that’s promised to us. President Nelson has said this to us, going back to the temple and your spiritual foundation from October 2021.

  15:26 He said, “I plead with you to seek prayerfully and consistently to understand temple covenants and ordinances. Spiritual doors will open. You will learn how to part the veil between heaven and earth, how to ask for God’s angels to attend you, and how better to receive direction from heaven. Your diligent efforts to do so will reinforce and strengthen your spiritual foundation.” Isn’t that awesome? Those promises of as I learn my covenants, which this is all about, that I will have, in part, the ability to ask for angels to attend to me. And I’m not sure it’s going to happen like this. I’ve not had that experience, but I witness the reality of angels.

Hank Smith: 16:16 Have either of you ever laughed between verses two and three, that the angel says, “Awake.” And Benjamin says, “I awoke and stood up.” And then the angel says, “Awake.”

John Bytheway: 16:26 Awake.

Hank Smith: 16:28 He’s almost like one of my children, “Wake up.” And so they get out of bed. “No, seriously, wake up.” Oh, yeah. I want to read to you both something that our friend John Hilton wrote. He says, “When we visit the textual connections between Abinadi and King Benjamin, an interesting possibility arises. Most of the connections between the two discourses,” we haven’t got to Abinadi yet, “come not between King Benjamin’s words, but from the words of the angel who spoke to King Benjamin. In Mosiah 3:3, King Benjamin states, an angel said unto me, and then commences a lengthy quote. The strongest connections between King Benjamin’s discourse and Abinadi’s discourse occur when Abinadi’s words are not compared with Benjamin’s but Benjamin’s quotation of the angel.”

  17:19 And then he asks this fun question, “Could Abinadi have been the angel who spoke to King Benjamin? While such an assertion must be extremely tentative,” he’s being really safe there, “it is interesting to note Abinadi had passed away before King Benjamin speaks. There is a clear textual connection between their words, and Abinadi and King Benjamin do not appear to have any contact.” Then he goes on. He says, “There are other possible explanations for the connections, but it’s interesting to reflect on whether Abinadi could have been that angelic minister.” Isn’t that kind of a fun thing to think about? I know he says we’ve got to be extremely tentative, but I think it can be a fun connection when we go read the words of Abinadi.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 18:07 It’s not uncommon for the Lord to use angels to mentor those who need that kind of help. Angel Moroni was the last writer and keeper of the Book of Mormon and the perfect mentor for Joseph Smith, among many other angels that mentored Joseph Smith.

Hank Smith: 18:22 Jen, what do you see as the crucial points of this angelic visit?

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 18:27 Oh, my. It’s Jesus, right? That absolutely it’s Jesus. For us to be able to say, “Let’s take the way King Benjamin has described himself, and he’s now become a type of Jesus Christ, that we have similar language and descriptions of the Lord omnipotent who reigneth.” This is verse five, “Who was and is from all eternity to all eternity shall come down from heaven among the children of men.” And that’s the same as Nephi, talking about the condescension of God, “To dwell in a tabernacle of clay and shall go forth among men working mighty miracles.” And then these such as, and Benjamin doesn’t say he does these things, but he’s serving. He’s bettering people’s lives, and he’s bringing them to Jesus and the miracles, healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

  19:24 I don’t know about you. I’ve had vision trouble my whole life from the time I was seven years old, and to think about that idea of restored sight, but I’m not even blind, and what God can do through His son for us to cure and to heal, casting out devils and evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. You want to get the natural man out of you, come to Jesus, and He will draw that evil spirit out. I mentioned earlier that Benjamin talked about suffering, and now in verse seven, “And lo, he shall suffer temptations and pain of body, hunger, thirst and fatigue, even more than man can suffer.” We can’t comprehend this. There’s not a Fast Sunday that comes close to what he’s been through, “Except it be unto death, for behold blood cometh from every pore. So great shall be His anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of His people.”

  20:28 We want to pay attention to blood. We’ve talked a little bit about blood, but that this angel is going to talk a little bit more about blood. And I want us to take a minute if we can. Let’s go over to the Bible Dictionary and the word blood with this idea of trying to understand why was blood significant, especially in the law of Moses. If we could go down a handful of lines after the quotation of Acts 15:20 through 29, the sentence begins, “The atoning power.” “The atoning power of a sacrifice was in the blood because it was regarded as containing the life of the animal and because the sacrifice was a type of the great sacrifice, who is Jesus Christ. The scripture says that almost all that are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission.” That’s from Hebrew nine.

  21:28 “Jesus worked out a perfect atonement by the shedding of His blood. Joseph Smith, as having many other prophets, sealed His testimony with His blood, that the righteous might be honored and the wicked might be condemned. Often a covenant was sealed with blood.” When we think again about the sacrament and the water, that it’s an emblem of His blood, that we are indeed bought with a price, redeemed, sanctified through the blood of the lamb. Angel is very careful to draw our attention to blood. You’ll notice again in verse 11, “For behold, and also His blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.”

  22:25 So we’ve got another group brought up, and then we’re going to get blood again in verse 15 towards the bottom, talking about the law of Moses availeth nothing except it were through the atonement of His blood. And then in 16, “For behold, as in Adam or by nature they fall, even so the blood of Christ atoneth for their sins.” The end of 18, talking about salvation, “Is and is to come, and in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord omnipotent.” Here we’ve got the blood of Jesus Christ sacrificing to save us.

John Bytheway: 23:07 Mosiah 3:7, “Blood cometh from every pore.” There is, correct me if I’m wrong, only three places where it speaks of that. Only Luke in the gospels, of blood coming from every pore in Gethsemane, here in King Benjamin’s speech given him by an angel, and section 19 in first person where Jesus describes it. But I like that it connects blood to the atonement, when I see the sacrament table and remembrance of His body and His blood. I think, and I hope I’m not drawing too careful of distinctions, because of Jesus’s, we will all live again, be resurrected with our bodies. Because of His blood, we can have eternal life, immortality and eternal life, like Moses 1:39 says, His body and His blood.

Hank Smith: 23:59 Jen, I love this question, because John, do you remember our episode with Phil Allred, who’s a good friend of Jen’s, last year in the book of Hebrews? If I remember the writer said, “The blood of the bull and the goat can’t get rid of sin.” Jen, you said these people are still living the law of Moses. This would be a great connection for them, for him to say over and over it’s the blood of Jesus Christ that saves you, not the blood of the sacrifice. They’re pointing in a certain direction.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 24:34 Yeah, absolutely, you’re right. But it amplifies why it matters to take His name. That’s what’s next is taking His name as saying, “I accept this blood. I accept this offering even to talk about this, that I just feel so much reverence that one person, one individual would do such a thing.” In verse eight of Mosiah, “He shall be called Jesus Christ.” Let’s do a little thought experiment with names and watch the names that are going to come here, and even consider what’s in a name. I married at 41, and I’d been Jennifer Brinkerhoff for 41 years, and I liked that name. Met Jed and I took his name, but that wasn’t easy for me. We talked about it. And he said, “Well, do you want to hyphenate?” Brinkerhoff Platt’s a mouthful. We thought about Platterhoff. Actually, our names go awesome together. You take Jennifer and Jed and it’s Jennifer Platterhoff. We’re meant to be one. Isn’t that so good?

Hank Smith: 25:40 Jennifer Platterhoff.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 25:41 Jennifer Platterhoff.

Hank Smith: 25:42 We’re going to put that on the title of this episode.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 25:44 You’re welcome to, because he influences everything I do. But I think that that union is such a type of how to really experience the Atonement. And to put our names together and that it’s kind of a funny thing, but that now I’ve learned what it means to be a Platt. I know that Platt’s are loyal. I know that Platt’s show up, that they’re dedicated and they love to serve, and I’m honored to take his name. I love that guy. And to think about that we get to share this life, but now Jesus is saying, “Take my name,” and that our sealing is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, that their names ratify it so that we can have that experience.

Hank Smith: 26:30 I wanted to ask you something since you’re a mom. You’ve pointed out the word blood comes up in Mosiah three. Well, in Mosiah five, King Benjamin’s going to say you’re going to be called the children of Christ, His sons and His daughters. For this day, He has spiritually begotten you or spiritually given birth to you. Perhaps this might be the reason Benjamin chose this name because the Lord, like a mother, I think the book of Moses does this, gives His blood to give life. You’re born into this world by water, blood, and spirit. I want you born again by water, blood, and spirit. You’ve just talked about your relationship with Jed. Talk about your relationship with your children and how Christ gave His blood to give this new birth.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 27:26 All my life, all I’ve ever wanted was to be a mother. My desire was always centered on that and delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed, delayed. We married at 41, I was pregnant immediately, and we lost that pregnancy, and pregnant again and lost that pregnancy. And you try and say, “Awesome, my body at 41 and 42 can get pregnant,” but at the same time you’re going, Not awesome.” Because of my age, they would do some testing and different things. We discovered just a simple blood clotting mutation that is resolved with a baby aspirin, but it was blood. It was blood that my body thought this is a foreign entity, I am to reject it. Most of my pregnancy with our daughter, our firstborn, was anxious.

  28:19 I went to the doctor shortly after we discovered she was a she. I went in and told the doctor, “I’m still afraid. Is this viable? Are we going to keep this pregnancy?” And he said to me, he said, “I’m going to say something to you that I typically don’t say to patients, no man physiologically will ever experience the atonement of Jesus Christ the way you will in carrying this child. Remember Him.” Hank, what an inspired question you’ve asked, right? She then became a type for me. Every movement, everything was remember Him. For me, it was such an opportunity to stay focused on Him. Well, at 37 weeks we went in for a routine checkup and they said, “You need to have a baby or a stroke.”

Hank Smith: 29:13 Did you say, “I’ll take baby”? Were you like…

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 29:16 Here’s the thing, I was supposed to have a baby shower that night. Can we have a party first? And the doc said, “I think you maybe should have the baby.” So we had the baby. And I remember she came emergency C-section. There’s that moment where I couldn’t feel anything anymore, and I was in a bit of shock of going, “I can’t feel anything shoulder down. This scares me.” But within minutes we have the most exquisite human. This child continues to mentor me and tutor me and be such a strength to me. Her natural gift is wisdom and she is so good. She’s not afraid to correct me. She’s not afraid to give her opinions. And then 23 months later we had our son. That boy is pure as gold, and I think it’s God’s gift to an old mom to say, “Let’s give you some really wise old souls that you can enjoy and invest in,” but I’ll never be the same.

  30:21 My body is altered. It’s completely different. And let’s talk about blood. My blood pressure will never be normal again because of my body and what it went through as an old lady. They came at nearly 43 and 45. So my blood pressure is now different, and I have to watch that carefully. I hope I’m not too personal to all of you, but to think about blood being a part of that variable, I have a heart palpitation now and feel my heart. It’s very… I hear my heart, it’s the source of blood. And I’ve made a choice to say I know part of it’s anxiety, but I’m going to let that remind me to remember Him and to think about the source of the blood, that we can make those kinds of decisions, that we can say, “I’m dealing with something that’s uncomfortable. I’m dealing with something that’s medically unexplainable. They don’t know what’s the matter with me. It is what it is. So what am I going to do with it? I’m going to remember Him.” Thank you for asking.

Hank Smith: 31:31 Here is someone offering their own blood so someone else can have life. What else do you want to do in three, Jen?

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 31:39 Okay, in three, let’s make sure we’ve got His names, that He is, in verse eight, “He shall be called Jesus Christ, the son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the creator of all things from the beginning.” And then his mother’s name, that her name is Mary. And we only get her a few times too. So blood and Mary only come up a few more times, that He’s the source of salvation. Let’s go over to verse 17, “And I say unto you that there shall be no other name given nor any other way, nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord omnipotent.” He is the source of salvation. He is the only way. By covenant, we take his name and we change. We change our nature and our character. We can’t not read verse 19. We probably could recite it in unison, but would one of you read that for us?

John Bytheway: 32:41 Okay. Mosiah 3:19, “For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and puteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.”

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 33:14 There is so much in here, and I know that you have studied and talked about the fall of Adam and what that means and the necessity of it, that for us to really navigate the plan of happiness, I’m sure pre-mortality was glorious, but it wasn’t enough. We wanted a body. And with that body, we fell. Adam fell. I fell, and I came into a mortal realm that’s going to place me in a position where it may not feel natural to obey and to follow and to keep the commandments, but if I will put off the natural man and yield to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, I can become a saint. There are so many possibilities for us to explore. I would have us consider, what does it really feel like to experience the Holy Ghost? Is He familiar to me so that when He speaks, I can yield that I will slow down and say, “Okay, I’m listening. What is it you want me to do?”

  34:23 And it’s putting off that list from the last chapter of contention and rebellion and disobedience and not willing to repent. It’s overcoming the world. It’s mastering the body. It’s being able to say, “I want to live the doctrine of Christ, and I want to become as a child.” And Benjamin’s going to do something masterful with this teaching of an angel, and tell us, as you’ve said, you’ll become children of Christ, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict. Let’s talk about inflict for a minute. President Holland gave a talk called A Saint Through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. This was at BYU in 2022, January 2022, and I want to share something he teaches us here.

  35:21 Here’s what President Holland says, “You can sail on, King Benjamin said, if you will be childlike, submissive, meek, humble, and full of love. I think the only commentary needed for this verse might be regarding the line suggesting God inflicts trials and burdens upon us. In English, the word inflict, which comes from the Latin infligir, has at least two meanings. One is to strike or dash against and the other is to beat down. But those definitions are not applicable to God or His angels. No. The proper definition of the word as King Benjamin used it is to allow something that must be born or suffered. Allowing something is a different matter. God can and will do that if it is ultimately for our good. I am going to say it again. God does not now, nor will he ever do to you a destructive, malicious, unfair thing ever.

  36:28 “It is not in what Peter called the divine nature to even be able to do so by definition, and in fact, God is perfectly and thoroughly always and forever good and everything he does is for our good. I promise you that God does not lie awake nights trying to figure out ways to disappoint us or harm us or crush our dreams or our faith. Often, we see that word inflict in there and we want to surrender and we want to turn God’s plan of happiness into Satan’s plan of happiness, that God’s controlling my life and He’s determining what’s going to happen. That’s what Satan wanted to have happen, to control us, that we could all be saved. Instead, He’s allowing us to have the experiences that we need to have to become saints, consecrated disciples of Jesus Christ.”

John Bytheway: 37:26 This is one of those verses you just read it and think, “Okay, a farm boy made this up.” I like to define with my students or try to, we try to talk about it together. What do you think the natural man is? And sometimes we come up with that’s the do what comes naturally. Instead of boundaries, you’re just thinking, “If I just did whatever I felt like, what would I do?” And I don’t know if you guys have a better definition. I remember Sister Wendy Watson Nelson gave a talk years ago at Women’s Conference called You Make Me Feel Like a Natural Woman, which was the title of a song.

  38:03 And she talked about if you did what the natural woman wanted. I like this line, “Unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit.” And when I saw that word, enticings, it’s not forced, but we’re enticed by both sides, and I have in my margin that awesome chapter, Second Nephi two, I have verse 16, “The Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore man could not act for himself, save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other. The natural man gives way to one enticing, but if we will give way to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, that is putting off the natural man.” That’s how I’m seeing it. Do you think I’m getting that right?

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 38:47 Yeah, I think so. But that it always comes down to what I want to choose.

John Bytheway: 38:52 Yeah, and that’s the Second Nephi two thing. This is why there has to be an opposition in all things, so that we’re put in a position to choose which enticings we’re going to follow.

Hank Smith: 39:02 This verse seems to fit really well with the teachings of Paul. He talked about this tug-of-war between the flesh and the spirit. This is Galatians five, “So I say walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. The flesh desires that which is contrary to the spirit and the spirit which is contrary to the flesh, after conflict with each other. The acts of the flesh are obvious. Sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, rage, selfishness, dissension and factions, envy, drunkenness and the like. But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.” And then he says what King Benjamin says, it’s just a little harsher. He says to put off the natural man. That’s what King Benjamin says. Paul says to crucify the flesh with its passions and desires. A little more graphic, but the idea is I’ve got two sides of me, and one has to control the other. I get to choose which one is in control.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 40:22 It’s why the spirit matters so much. It’s really prioritizing the most important thing we do is feeling and following the Spirit. Last year I had a confrontation with a friend. It was not pretty. We both reacted poorly. It wasn’t easy to make peace. In fact, it went on for a long time. We were both in pain over it. And one day I was out walking and just trying to sort through some things and I, through the Holy Ghost, had the thought come, “I need to take care of this before he’s gone.” I heard the prompt. I responded and I did the work. I spent some time with trusted friends and just said, “I need to figure out how to forgive and how to move on and to make peace.” And we started to do the work together, and he was that Fall diagnosed with a terminal illness and will be buried tomorrow. He’s gone.

  41:29 And I literally watched my friend shed the natural man, that he got to where all that mattered was God. And he even said that to me eventually, saying, “There’s just no room for contention.” That at the point that when he knew this was the end, it didn’t matter, this confrontation that we had had. And to think how else could I have known except for the Holy Ghost to say, “Take care of this. Don’t delay. Be a peacemaker and repent. Repent and make it right.” But to literally see someone change and transform, that this is the whole purpose of mortality, and I haven’t quite figured out how to navigate it without something major, that it feels like when there’s something major going on that it’s easier to go, “Oh, I’ll repent,” or, “I’ll make peace with you.” I want to learn to navigate life with so much joy and love that these little things just maybe don’t matter so much and that I want to leave people feeling love from him and for him.

  42:51 That’s what Benjamin’s done for us. That’s what an angel has done for us, and we’re not even finished. You guys get to keep going with this, but what a glorious thing mortality is, that we get this chance to become kings and queens, that we get this chance to practice with each other, Elder Maxwell called it clinical material, and that you and I brushing up against each other, I don’t know what’s going on for you, but if I can just give compassion and love and kindness, meekness, humility, and treat you like I would a child, I think it might all work out in the end.

Hank Smith: 43:36 Elder Holland said, “I am grateful to know that in spite of my imperfections, at least God is perfect. That at last He is, for example, able to love His enemies because too often, due to the natural man and woman in us, you and I are sometimes that enemy.” He says, “I am grateful that God is merciful and a peacemaker, because I need mercy and the world needs peace.”

John Bytheway: 44:06 I think that was just beautiful and amazing.

Hank Smith: 44:09 Jen, thanks for being so vulnerable with that story. I think everyone listening could say, “That’s me too. I don’t want to be this natural man, natural woman.” And Latter-day Saints are not of the belief of the depravity of men and women, but we do believe that we have natural appetites and passions. And the Lord has said, “Keep those in bounds or there’s going to be difficulty in your life.” Jen, if I’m sitting folding laundry or on my commute or I’ve even heard some people say, “Hey, I listened to you and John while I’m skiing or snowboarding,” let’s say anyone out there is listening going, “I am that way too. I want to put off the natural man. I want to yield to the Spirit and become all these things.” What would you say, Jen? How does someone start? I think Elder Holland’s right. The Lord doesn’t see you as an enemy but does want you to become a saint. How would you help someone?

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 45:06 The first is come to know God, His nature, and His character. That’s one of our biggest problems. We maybe misunderstand who He is and His love for us. When I come to know Him, I want to understand His plan of happiness. I’d love to invite people, including myself, to consider the gaps. When it comes to the plan of happiness, we’re never going to plumb the depths and have it mastered. So today maybe the gap is trying to understand what it means to be fallen or this complexity of the natural world versus the world to come and what we’re promised in that world. Put some energy in that. I had a young man ask me this week, he says, “I want to learn how to feel the Holy Ghost more.” And I said, “What if you reversed it? What if you wanted to learn to pay attention to when you don’t feel the Holy Ghost?”

  46:06 And he said, “What would I do? What would that look like?” I said, “Well, if you’re doing something and you feel that nudge or feeling, don’t do that, don’t say that, then pay attention to that.” Because at the heart of the covenant and Elder Bednar has taught us this, at the heart of the covenant is to always have His spirit to be with us, and I’m taking that at face value. I’m trusting that to be real and true. If I feel a withdrawal, then what changed? And I can quickly repent of that. That may sometimes be easier to do for some of us, to look at the opposite, to be able to say instead of, “I’ll never be a saint. I’ll never be good enough.” Well, today what can I do? What’s the one thing that I can do to feel the Holy Ghost or recognize his withdrawal?

  46:57 I love to get out my patriarchal blessing and identify the gifts that I’ve been blessed with and focus on those gifts, and I like to look for evidence of it in the day. How did I really amplify that God-given gift to celebrate that and acknowledge it and to show gratitude in my nothingness that, “Look what you’ve given me, and thank you for letting me experience that today.” I think that’s the process of putting off the natural man even for five minutes a day to say, “For five minutes today, I’m going to do something a little bit differently.” And watch how five minutes can change. It’s the 1% better, from our friend Brother Dunn, that just the five minutes a day can make such a difference in the way that I see myself and my relationship with God.

Hank Smith: 47:47 CS Lewis said, “This type of renovation, this changing from the natural man to a saint is precisely what Christianity is about. This world is the great sculptor’s shop. We are the statues, and there is a rumor going around the shop that some of us are someday going to come to life.” And maybe that’s tying this together, Jen, with the blood of Christ, I can go from the natural man, which is kind of a dead life, through His blood, I can now come alive. Jen, before we let you go, as we’ve been studying this book this year, we are finding more and more treasures, which were always right here. They were right here in front of us the whole time, hidden in plain sight. Will you tell our listeners how you feel about the book and what the book’s done for you?

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 48:42 I don’t have a first memory of falling in love with the Book of Mormon. I can’t tell you a time or a place or a date. I remember studying it my whole life. My parents were really careful that that was a consistency that we could count on, but I know what it feels like when I don’t read the Book of Mormon. Like I was talking earlier about that opposite, and there’s always a void if I’ve not given it the time or energy. For me, I’ve fallen in love as I’m watching my children fall in love, and it’s come to mean something different that it has saved me for decades. I’ve taken a missionary blue copy of the Book of Mormon and I’ll write a theme or an attribute on the spine, and I’ll study the Book of Mormon that year with that in mind, and I’ve got a whole shelf of them.

  49:34 Those have all prepared me for the next thing, that I’ve always been ready for the next thing, because I have studied the Book of Mormon. As a mother to watch my children to start to love the Book of Mormon, it’s everything. And it means more than it’s ever meant. I feel like we’re starting to really see and claim the blessings that prophets have given to us for generations. I love the Book of Mormon. I know that it is true. I know that a man will come nearer to Christ than any other book than from the Book of Mormon, and I know that God lives and that this is His church and His work, and what a privilege. I just am so grateful to consider myself a disciple of Jesus Christ. And the Book of Mormon has tutored and mentored me in that, and I witness those to you, all of you, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Hank Smith: 50:38 Amen. This has been a fantastic day. I feel like King Benjamin has become 3D. The crowd that is gathered around Benjamin gets bigger and bigger with each person who reads the Book of Mormon. It’s an ever-expanding audience. Jen, I think you’ve done that for us today. You’ve put us in the audience.

Dr. Jennifer Platt: 51:01 Oh, my pleasure. Thank you both.

Hank Smith: 51:03 We love having you. We want to thank Dr. Jennifer Brinkerhoff Platt for being with us today. Jen, it was absolutely wonderful. We also want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you join us next week. We have more King Benjamin coming up on followHIM.

  51:30 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode’s transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co, that’s followhim.co. On our website, you’ll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights. From all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won’t find anywhere else. If you’d like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 52:25 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.