Hank Smith: 00:00:04 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name’s Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my humble in heart co-host, John Bytheway, and our guest this week, Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner. John, I know you know the Book of Jacob. We’re switching from first, second Nephi to now Jacob. What are we looking forward to today?

John Bytheway: 00:00:23 So when I think in terms of the storyline, we’ve got traveling through this empty corridor, Nephi breaks his bow, they’re starving probably. Jacob is taking over the leadership of the church, and now, he has to address prosperity and searching gold and silver and having stuff, which is very interesting just to watch, how are you going to handle that and how do we handle that today?

Hank Smith: 00:00:45 That’s a great comment, John. They’ve swung the pendulum from poverty almost now to riches. Like I said, we have Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner with us. What are we looking forward to today, Jacob one through four?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:00:57 There’s so much good in here, Hank. And thank you for having me on the show. I love that Jacob is the younger half of the family. We don’t know for sure if Sam has passed away, and Laman and Lemuel, but we know that Nephi is going to pass away during this time. We know that he’s lost his parents. He’s the younger half. He wasn’t living in Jerusalem, he wasn’t experienced with the richness and the ways of Jerusalem, but he has drawn close to the Lord, he’s received these blessings, and now he’s being called to be in a very strong and important leadership position, and he’s taking the role of the prophet.

  00:01:26 And you’re just seeing this growth of this young boy that was born in the wilderness, and now he’s the prophet of God, trying to bring his people to Christ, just like he saw his brother do and his father do. In a way, it’s very much our world today as a prophet becomes a prophet, President Nelson, and all of a sudden, he steps up to the plate, the mantle is on him, and Jacob has this mantle. We’re going to see what he’s going to teach and the errand that the Lord gives him. It’s Jacob’s errand.

Hank Smith: 00:01:49 Barb, I noticed in my study, there’s a definite shift from Nephi to Jacob. These are two different voices. John, Barb is not new to you and I, we’ve known her for a long time, but she might be new to some of our audience. Can you give us a brief bio?

John Bytheway: 00:02:03 Yeah. Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner, we’re so glad to have her back. She is an Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU, but what I love in her background is Institute Director in Boston that covered 100 different universities, including MIT and Harvard, and she was acting as a chaplain at Harvard and MIT. We’re really glad to have her back. I just love that kind of broad experience that you bring with you and I’m excited because of our past episode. Barbara, I know that you also have a podcast, and can you tell our listeners about that?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:02:38 Thanks, John. Yeah. One of the things that I see as a woman, and maybe as a professor, is sometimes it’s hard to know what applies to me and what doesn’t apply to me in the scriptures. One of the things that I have decided to do is to go through the scriptures with the framework of women’s voices and women’s eyes. So we have just started a podcast where we have women, many of whom have been past general church leaders, some scholars, and we go through these scriptures following the Come, Follow Me calendar. We would love to have those of you who would like to to join us on this new podcast called Grounded.

John Bytheway: 00:03:10 Sounds awesome. Can I listen, too?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:03:12 You bring up a good point, John. We need the support and we need the unity of men and women together. We can help others understand the perspective of women as we look at the doctrines and principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

John Bytheway: 00:03:24 Anything that helps you look at the scriptures with new eyes in a new way, scriptures you’ve read before, is a wonderful thing. So yeah, that sounds great.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:03:32 Thank you, John.

Hank Smith: 00:03:34 Barb, you’re special to John and I. We love you. We love Dustin and your daughters. All right. Let me read a little bit from the Come, Follow Me manual. Barb, let’s see where we go here. This is the opening paragraph.

  00:03:45 “The Nephites considered Nephi their great protector. He had also protected them against spiritual dangers, warning them against sin and urging them to come unto Christ. Now, that task fell to Jacob, whom Nephi had consecrated to be a priest and a teacher. Jacob felt a responsibility to boldly warn those who were beginning to labor in sin while also comforting the wounded soul of those who had been hurt by the sins of others. How would he do both? He would point them to Jesus Christ because both groups needed the Savior’s healing. Like the message of Nephi before him, Jacob’s testimony was a call to be reconciled unto God through the atonement of Christ.”

  00:04:27 Like you said, Barb, this is Jacob’s errand. How do you want to start? Where do we want to go? Do you just want to jump right in?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:04:33 Listening to you read that and looking at Jacob’s errand, you reminded me of bringing us back to second Nephi chapter two. It’s the patriarchal blessing in a sense that Lehi, as a father, gives to Jacob. And what you’re saying there, it occurred to me that, as Jacob is teaching his family, the blessing that he receives from his father in second Nephi chapter two was pretty powerful in this, and it just says, “And now, Jacob, I speak unto you.” This is Lehi. “Thou art my firstborn in the days of my tribulation in the wilderness. And behold in thy childhood, thou hast suffered afflictions and much sorrow because of the rudeness of thy brethren.”

  00:05:05 Think about what kind of life he had. He was raised in seeing his brothers fighting, he was raised in seeing his mother sorrowing, he was raised in seeing some serious contention, and it was very painful to him. We even see that later, that Jacob sorrows over the rudeness of his brothers to his mother, and it says, “Nevertheless, Jacob, my firstborn in the wilderness, thou knowest the greatness of God and He shall consecrate thine afflictions for thy gain,” then verse three, “Wherefore thy soul shall be blessed and thou shall dwell safely with thy brother, Nephi, and thy day shall be spent in the service of thy God, wherefore I know that thou art redeemed because the righteousness of thy Redeemer, for thou has beheld that, in the fullness of time, he cometh to bring salvation unto me.”

  00:05:48 And then he basically tells him, “You’ve been instructed, Jacob, regarding Jesus Christ, you’ve been instructed regarding his law.” In verse eight, Lehi tells him, “Wherefore how great the importance to make these things known into the inhabitants of the earth that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits and mercy and grace of the holy Messiah who layeth down his life according to the flesh and taketh it up again by the power of the spirit.”

  00:06:14 So Jacob’s already, at this early stage, he’s being told by Lehi, “Jacob, you are going to be going with your brother.” I’m sure Jacob doesn’t know what it means at this point that he’s actually going to be with his brother and he’s going to separate himself from the others, but he’s also being given a mandate from the Lord through his father that he needs to teach of Jesus, he needs to teach of the atonement of Jesus Christ, he needs to teach about laws and mercy and grace. In a sense, he’s already been told what he needs to teach when this kind of thing happens to him in his own life as he gets older.

  00:06:46 I think almost, in a sense, we jump back and just remind ourselves, Jacob’s already been given what he needs to teach. Jacob’s already been guided by the Lord. He’s already gone through misery and he’s also being taught about family. He’s being taught that men, they might have joy. He’s been taught by his father about agency and being free to act. Now, we’re to the point where Jacob is going to become the next prophet, and he’s already learned the doctrine of Christ and he knows what his mission is even before it happens.

Hank Smith: 00:07:14 Barb, let me read you something from Elder Holland. He wrote, “It seems unfortunate that one so young would be deprived of so many physical comforts, and at the same time, suffer such wrenching emotional and spiritual conflicts within his family, but painful as it was, this was all part of the making of a prophet, Jacob the unshaken, Jacob the unshakeable, Jacob born in affliction, refined in service, triumphant in Christ. This was part of his shaping.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:07:44 Hank, I was just thinking as you said that, we think about our living prophets and apostles, President Nelson being raised by inactive parents, President Oaks who lost his father at a very young age, President Holland, just recently, he was posting about how his father, he wasn’t necessarily active and strong. He had a very strong mother, but his father wasn’t coming from such a strong background.

  00:08:04 I think about even my own father, who came from a situation where his mother committed suicide and his father was very anti-Mormon, all of these men and all of these women, as well, where you recognize they know what they have received, they have had a hard life, but they can also testify, as Nephi did, I know in whom I have trusted. I think that’s what happens here with Jacob. He sees the struggle, but he also, more importantly, has literally seen the Savior. So he’s going to move forward and the Lord’s going to use this suffering to help him be the kind of prophet that he needs to be to help his people come unto the Savior.

John Bytheway: 00:08:36 Yeah, I’m grateful you talked about that. Sometimes we think, if everything isn’t going perfectly, then somebody’s not doing their job, when in fact, even prophets have difficult, difficult lives, and just you saying that. What did Lehi say that you just read? In the days of my affliction, Lehi was having a hard time when Jacob was born. Nephi had a hard time. Jacob never saw Jerusalem. He saw his brothers fighting. Part of life is everything’s not going to go perfectly. Then what you said, Barbara, thank you, but, “I know in whom I have trusted,” getting us to that point is what we need when things are hard.

Hank Smith: 00:09:10 John, as you’re talking about this, I remember back when the pandemic hit and I thought, “Who better to be leading the church than a doctor?”

John Bytheway: 00:09:19 I know.

Hank Smith: 00:09:20 Prepared for this time.

John Bytheway: 00:09:23 And we started doing home Come, Follow Me in, was it October, 2018? It was like, thankfully, we were practicing teaching at home before that pandemic hit.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:09:34 Back to that and the choice that Jacob has, this comes from the blessing that his father gave to him where he says to Jacob, “Wherefore men are free according to the flesh and all things are given them which are expedient unto man.” We know the scripture, but then he continues, “And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life through the great mediator of all men or to choose captivity and death according to that captivity and the power of the Devil, for he seeketh that all men might be miserable, like unto himself,” and then he says, “I would that you should look to the great mediator and hearken unto his great commandments and be faithful unto his words and choose eternal life according to the will of the Holy Spirit.”

  00:10:08 And I think that that’s what we’re seeing with Jacob. Jacob is this young boy. He could’ve chosen to follow Laman and Lemuel or he could’ve chosen to follow Nephi and Sam. The choice was his. And in this wilderness of his affliction in this really difficult time, just like all of us have, we all have this choice to see. It’s not that he hasn’t been through struggles, and we’ve heard that recently. I loved Elder Cook in General Conference of October, 2023, where he just talked about, “I have lost my own nephew.” We’ve all had these struggles, and I appreciate that the leaders of the church have been authentic. Sister Davis talked about her struggle with cancer at General Conference.

  00:10:41 It’s not that Jacob has had this perfect life, he clearly has not, but he has made a choice, and his choice is to follow the Savior. I just love that Jacob is told at a very young age, “Use your agency, do the right thing, know that the Savior is the answer for you, but you’re going to be tempted, and the Devil’s going to want you, and he’s going to want you to be miserable like unto himself, but the choice is yours.” And I think that that’s very President Nelson, the choice is yours, choose eternity, focus on the things that are celestial, but you make the choice. President Nelson is so good at helping us understand, and President Oaks, as well, that the choice is ours and we have our agency to choose between the good and the evil. Jacob’s going to continue to do that. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t concerned for the welfare of the souls of the people, but it does mean that they understand the doctrine of Jesus Christ and the importance of agency within that framework.

Hank Smith: 00:11:29 Wonderful. Barb, I think you’re right. We can see, in second Nephi, Jacob being shaped for this time where the Nephites have now changed, at least from what we were reading with Nephi back in second Nephi five. We lived after the manner of happiness. We have a temple, we’re industrious, and now Jacob meets different challenges with these people.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:11:50 We’re going to see that the first part of chapter one is critical, where he’s told what to write and what to focus on in his life. Since you are taking us to that next part with those two areas, and really, what it boils down to is pride, and wealth, and money. The problem isn’t wealth, the problem is pride, and then the second one is almost a form of another kind of pride, which is the pride of lust, pride of thinking that you can have whatever you want, and in this case, it’s the sexual immorality that they’re dealing with that he’s so concerned about, that falling from virtue.

  00:12:20 He is seeing that they are a wealthy people. Jacob has come from nothing. He had to be on the boat that Nephi built. He didn’t have all of this in his life, but now, he is concerned about what’s happening. He makes it very clear it’s not the money that he’s dealing with, it’s the pride of the people and how they’re treating each other. That’s his concern. So he’s going to teach us about two things, pride, in this case in the context of money, and then also the unchastity of lust.

Hank Smith: 00:12:46 So Barb, you mentioned this first part of chapter one where Jacob talks about, “What I’m supposed to write.” He’s deferring to Nephi and his instruction.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:12:56 I find this so important that the Book of Mormon, we can study so much of the history and we can study so much of other material associated with this, but I think that there’s a very clear message that we find right in chapter one that Nephi has told to Jacob and now Jacob’s telling us.

  00:13:11 So starting in verse two, he says, “He gave me, Jacob,” referring to Nephi, “Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I consider to be most precious, that I should not touch save it were lightly concerning the history of this people, which are called the people of Nephi, for he said that the history of this people should be engraven upon his other plates and that I should preserve these plates and hand them down unto my seed from generation to generation,” and then he continues in verse four, “And if there were preaching which was sacred, or revelation which was great, or prophesying that I should engraven the heads of them upon these plates and touch upon them as much as it were possible for Christ’s sake and for the sake of our people, and then for what reason? For because of faith and great anxiety, it truly had been made manifest unto us concerning our people what things should happen unto them.” The answer to the struggles of his people and the answer to what they’re going to need is not all the historical context. I think that’s why we don’t see a lot about the kings. We know that we have a new king that’s going to reign after Nephi. They love this person. That’s not going to be his focus here. His focus is on the spiritual, his focus is on bringing people to Christ, his focus is on helping people have faith, and you see that in verse six, “We also have had many revelations in the spirit of much prophecy, wherefore we knew of Christ and his kingdom what should come, wherefore we labor diligently among our people that we might persuade them to come unto Christ.”

  00:14:34 We’ve heard this phraseology before and partake of the goodness of God. They could really focus on the history and those are going to take place in another set of plates, but the Book of Mormon is not that. The secondary reason may be the history, but the primary reason for the Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ, to help them and their children and posterity, in especially our day, to understand what it is that God wants us to know for the salvation of our children, our grandchildren, and all of our posterity forever. For me, that’s an extremely important part that we understand, that is a reason why this book was written, and there’s a reason why Jacob is writing. He was told that by Nephi, “Focus on the spiritual and sacred things, focus on those things that change hearts and brings people to Christ.”

  00:15:14 There’s a quote by Elder Perry where he says, “How often we read the record primarily as a history of a fallen people failing to remember that it was compiled by inspired prophets for the purpose of helping us come unto Christ. The major writers of the Book of Mormon did not intend it to be a history book at all. In fact, Jacob said that his brother Nephi commanded him that he should not touch save it were lightly concerning the history of his people.” Then he continues, “Each time we read the Book of Mormon, we should probably ask ourselves, why do these writers choose these particular stories or events to include in the record? What value are they for us today?”

  00:15:48 I love that the focus really is on that. Sometimes I think even myself can become sidetracked from what is most important. And clearly, what is most important to Jacob and to Nephi is bringing people to Christ through the sacred, and through these revelations, and through these things that’ll build faith and help people come unto Christ and partake of his goodness. Nephi says that he’s going to show us the tender mercies, and the Book of Mormon then will do that if the prophets do what Nephi asked them to do throughout this book.

John Bytheway: 00:16:15 Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I actually asked my students, “Is the Book of Mormon a history?” Well, right here, it says, “I’m just going to touch lightly on the history.” The emphasis, he’s not trying to tell you everything that happened to everybody. That, at least early in the Book of Mormon, was a large plates thing. I like in verse four, “Preaching, prophesying those things that are great, I’m going to put that for Christ’s sake and for the sake of our people.”

Hank Smith: 00:16:38 I noticed, in those verses next, John and Barb, that he’s not alone in this. He says, verse six, “We had many revelations, we knew of Christ, we labor diligently that we might persuade them to come unto Christ.” I wonder if he’s talking about Joseph here, “We would to God that we could persuade all men not to rebel against God.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:16:59 Yeah. There’s a great statement by President Eyring where he’s talking to teachers, to parents, to anybody who’s teaching the book, but it’s specifically to Seminary Institute teachers and BYU Religion faculty. He says, “You want your students to see that their challenge is not to prove that the Book of Mormon is true, but to prove to God that they, the students, are true. When they do this, they will know that the book is true. When they prove that they will do what the book says, God will tell them more. The Book of Mormon is about people proving their belief to God little by little, and then he confirms their belief and then gives them more.”

  00:17:32 That’s what I’m trying to do as a parent with my own two little girls. I can get into the history and try to figure out maps and everything else, which is important, although, frankly, I lose them most of the time, but I realize, with my two little daughters, I want them so desperately to come unto Christ, I want them so desperately to know that their prayers are going to be answered, I want them so desperately to know that they are going to sin, and they are going to have struggles, and they are going to have a lot of people trying to influence them in a number of ways, just like Jacob knows, and I know, hands down from my own life, the answer is turning them to Jesus because that is the only thing that has worked for me.

  00:18:07 I can go with them to all of their struggles and everything else, but really, when it comes down to it, I have to help them know that the answer, as President Nelson says, really is Jesus. He is the answer to their problems. He is the only way to have peace in this world. He’s the only source of hope. Other things are interesting and significant to a certain level, but nothing compares to the priority of helping them come unto Christ as we study the Book of Mormon together. I feel that way about my students, as well, or at gospel doctrine or at any of the callings I’ve ever had. We just have to make sure that we don’t put anything in the way of the primary and the priority, which is helping them come unto Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:18:43 Barb, I love that. I recently read a quote from Elder Holland that really adjusted my teaching. I’ve been doing this awhile and I thought, “Wow, I need to make an adjustment.” He said, “Students,” we’d say our children, “are not containers to be filled, they are matches to be lit.” I sometimes see my students and my children as containers to be filled. Let me give you information, let me give you information when what if we saw them as matches to be lit? Do that. Fire them up. Like you said, I want so desperately for my children to believe in Christ, not necessarily know the history of the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:19:22 The reality is, and this is back to Jacob, Jacob has just lost his father. He’s lost his mother. He’s about ready to lose his brother. I know you two are in this boat. Those of us who have lost parents and especially when you’ve lost both parents, this is me having lost my parents somewhat recently. There is a reality that you need to be self-reliant. I’m older than I would like to be having these children. If I pass away at the time my parents passed away from me, I need to make sure that my children are so grounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ because they have to stand firm on their own and the world is becoming more and more crazy. It’s too risky not to do this. I don’t have time to waste on much else. That almost sounds prudish, but the TV shows that we’re watching, the books that we’re reading, the scriptures that we focus on, what we focus on the scriptures, the vacations that we go on.

  00:20:11 There’s a purpose in everything. There is a purpose and it’s fun and we laugh a lot. We enjoy things, but boy, as a mother, while I have them in my home, as a teacher, as I have people in my classroom, there’s very careful intentional training going on. I have no time to waste and I see mortality is very short and I want them as prepared as I possibly can and I think that’s what Jacob’s experiencing here. He knows what’s ahead of these people and he’s not playing a game. There is good, there is evil. He knows that the Lord has told him he’s going forward.

Hank Smith: 00:20:42 It reminds me of my wonderful mother-in-law, Marlene Savage, died too young, 65. I used to think that was old. She’s just starting her grandparenting, but yet the fire she struck in her children and grandchildren is still burning. She was like you, Barb. She’s like, “I don’t have time to waste on this.” And wow, are we glad she did?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:21:04 Yeah. Dustin and I have lost all of our parents in our forties. We’re too young to have lost all of our parents at this stage, but I think for those of us who have lost those we love at a young age, you become orphans, but at the same time you also know, I have to rely on the Savior. You don’t have parents to call. You have mentors in your life, which we appreciate, but the reality is you know that now it’s you and the Lord. If you’re going to plead for help, it’s going to be the Lord you’re pleading to and if you are going to get guidance and counsel, it’s going to be from the Lord through his prophet, but mostly it’s going to be through personal revelation and you have to build that relationship with him. Our Heavenly Father and our Savior are those people.

  00:21:40 I just feel like that’s where he’s coming from. I felt it myself. You can call horizontally and reach horizontally as much as we want and we do want to help each other. If we’re not grounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ, we are going to struggle. He loves his people too much to let that happen. He’ll pay whatever price and I think that’s part of the anxiety that we see from Jacob. We see that in verse three, but we see it throughout the time with Jacob. He just says, ” But this day I am weighed down with much more desire and anxiety for the welfare of your souls than I have hitherto been.” Well yeah, because now Nephi has passed away and he has full responsibility as parents do for their children, but it’s his. I remember being in a stake conference. President Monson used to be in one of the stakes.

  00:22:16 I lived in Salt Lake and I remember him one day just saying, “No one prays for Gordon like Tommy. No one. And I think that’s what this is. It’s just this very heavy burden to have the souls of humankind on our shoulders. We see that here too. The blood on our garments they’re trying to avoid. They’re not trying to avoid it because they don’t want to be condemned. I don’t think they want to avoid it because they love people so desperately. They’ll do anything to save those they love, just like the Savior did. The closer we become to Christ, the more we care about the suffering of individuals and the more we come unto Christ, the more we want them to experience the joy as Lehi did as he’s partaking of the fruit.

John Bytheway: 00:22:52 You used the word weighed down and that’s in Jacob chapter two verse three. As he prepares to address them, “I’m weighed down with much more desire and anxiety for the welfare of your souls.” He wasn’t thinking about himself. That is that feeling of leadership. Oh my goodness, I’m responsible. I have got to teach these people now. “I’m taking over for Nephi and you see that in verse 19 of the chapter previous, taking upon ourselves or answering the sins of the people upon our own heads if we did not teach them the word of God with all diligence.” Wow, that is a weight. I like that he describes it as a weight and that he feels that weight. I’ve got to point them to Christ. Excellent.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:23:36 Absolutely. I want to share one more thing about writing if I may, because he talks about the scriptures. He’s going to talk about this a little bit later in chapter three as well. There’s a great talk by Elder Scott. It’s called to learn and teach more effectively. He talks like Jacob does here about having smaller plates and writing things. I have loved this and appreciated this and I have learned that as I have done this in my life, the Lord has guided me in what I write, especially personally in my own journals and what I’m hoping to give to my future posterity. I wasn’t planning to talk so much about death and what happens, but I have two daughters that have never met their grandparents. It’s the weirdest thing to know it’s not 10 generations down. It’s one, but this prophesying and seeing things in the future when we know we’re not going to be there and all of us know that there is a time that comes, but I love what Elder Scott, the pragmatics of what he does that for me has been very beneficial.

  00:24:24 He says this. “Have you learned the enduring value of keeping a journal, of the very important spiritual experiences or sacred impressions that the Lord has communicated to you?” And then he continues. “I do not keep a detailed journal of all the events each day, but I do try to keep a record of some of the very important matters. The spiritual ones are in a sacred password protected journal that no one else can access. When I feel authorized by the Holy Ghost, I take some of those truths learned and put them in my family journal or share them in a public message. This is consistent with the principle that the scriptures confirm is true. Some personal matters are for our guidance and edification to help us grow and improve our character, our devotion and our testimony. These things are not intended for other individuals.”

  00:25:07 Then he continues. “Much like a patriarchal blessing is tailored for the person whom it is given, such matters should be kept reverently protected because of their inherent sacred nature. Any sacred matter that the Lord wants others to know, he can communicate to them directly through the spirit if they are worthy and in tune.” I just share from personal experience, I appreciate this instruction. There are some things that I write down that will never see the light of day for anyone. They are just simply sacred and I believe that the Lord can trust Jacob because he can trust that Jacob is a confidential person and understands sacred things. There are some things though that I also recognize that the Lord will teach us that we need to share with other people, especially our family and children and when then guided by the spirit to share with other people and I hope that we can be sensitive to the Spirit and make those things known and write them.

  00:25:53 The writings that I have from my parents are some of the most precious writings, almost every piece of paper, but especially my mom had a little red notebook that she kept and she had other little things that she had, little journals, my parents. And when they focus and I write those testimonies, that’s what I want to read today. I want to know what my parents knew regarding Jesus. The information is interesting, but boy, when I’m trying to raise my own family and I’m trying to teach the gospel, I want to see and I want to use the writings of my parents regarding how to come unto Christ. That’s really all I care about.

Hank Smith: 00:26:24 I spoke earlier of my mother-in-law. I remember when my daughter Madelynn was baptized and you have that little break, that little ten-minute break during a baptismal service and everyone had a chance to write down their testimonies. You fill it out and my mother-in-law took that seriously and she wrote down her testimony. My daughter still has that by her bedside. It was 10 minutes, but wow. You know what she felt, what she believed.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:26:50 My parents had 13 children. We received no physical money, but we did receive testimonies. That’s what the family cares most about because of their training. It wasn’t that they’re rich or poor, but it does matter where you’re focused.

John Bytheway: 00:27:03 Barbara, that reminds me, four of my children have absolutely no memory of their grandpa. He joined the church at age 24. I’m so grateful we have his journal because they get to read those things. Recently, my daughter uploaded for Christmas all of our little camcorder tapes. Remember the ancient camcorders before we all had one in our pocket? I have an interview with my dad from the 90s and it’s so fun because it was before his Parkinson’s disease telling us all this stuff and my kids are watching their grandpa. It’s just a plug for grandpas and grandmas out there to write things down, make a little video so that you can share your testimony in perpetuity in the future.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:27:45 I said that my parents all passed away. I was wrong, and after we adopted children, he lived two more months. Those are two of the most sacred months. He attended the sealing. He had a goal that he would be able to be sealed to all of his children and grandchildren in mortality, which was big for him coming from a broken family as a child, so that was something that mattered a lot to him. As we adopted those children, it was during COVID and so he would say, “Have they told you when you could be sealed to your children yet?” The temples were closed, so he was waiting.

  00:28:14 We were honestly concerned that he wouldn’t make it. The temples are closed and we don’t know if we can be sealed, but we were sealed in August and he passed away in November and he was there and he just hugged them and that’s what mattered. Again, back to Jacob, that’s just what matters to Jacob. He cares about these people, his posterity, but he cares about these people coming unto Christ. And at the end of your life, I think that that’s what we are all going to be caring about if we’re focusing on the right things. It’s what matters, it’s what sticks.

Hank Smith: 00:28:40 How wonderful. Barb, John, I have to tell you, speaking of people who have really blessed my younger years, in Jacob 1 verse 12, it says, “It came to pass that Nephi died.” It’s a simple verse. My seminary teacher, way back in the 1900s, Larry Gardner down at Snow Canyon High School, we had a funeral for Nephi. I still remember it because he asked me to speak at Nephi’s funeral and here I am a junior in high school with a lot of unearned confidence. He said, “Will you speak?” I still remember that. I took that seriously. I wrote a talk. My friend Tanisha Hunt at the time, Tanisha Williams now, she wrote me a note after and said, “That really touched my heart what you said.” That was an impactful day and it was just something that Larry Gardner did. I don’t know if Brother Gardner can listen to our podcast or not, but Brother Gardner, if you’re out there, that was just one of those moments where your trajectory shifts a little bit.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:29:37 That reminds me, my mom loved the song Savior, Redeemer of My Soul. You know that song, Savior Redeemer. It’s a very sensitive song to me and mainly because my mom was a musician. I always tried to harmonize. Then she would say to me, “Why are you trying to ruin the song?” But she didn’t understand it that I really wasn’t trying to ruin the song, but I think everybody else in my family must’ve had perfect pitch because I would try to harmonize. Those are the other memories of my mom.

  00:30:04 At the end of her life, one of my nephews, she would have him come and sing Savior, Redeemer of My Soul. He would sing it and sing it and sing it. Finally, there was one day we were in the front room shortly before my mom passed away and my nephew had had somebody else playing the piano and after he had sung the song and it was so good and she just turned to him and said, “Now you can sing it at my funeral. Now it will bring people to Christ.” That song has a special place in my heart, but again, it was she wanted Savior, Redeemer of My Soul sung so that people would come unto Christ at her funeral. That’s what you’re saying, Hank. These opportunities to prepare for what’s most important. They really do stick in our hearts and minds.

  00:30:44 These people are mentors and Jacob’s now going to be a mentor. Nephi was a mentor to Jacob. They’re asking them probably the right questions. I don’t know what was being said to Jacob as Nephi was passing, but I would imagine there was a lot of training and mentoring happening there and Jacob was learning very carefully how to be the leader as he’s going forward.

Hank Smith: 00:31:01 Barb, can I ask you one more thing about chapter one and that is John mentioned this, the weight of being a spiritual leader, a church leader, a teacher. And as I read this, I think how easy is it to criticize a church leader without thinking about the heavy weight that is on them? You’ll hear people today, why did the prophet say this? Why did he say it that way? Why did President Oaks say it this way? Why did Elder Holland say it that way? And we, I don’t know, almost flippantly criticize, not realizing the weight that is on those individuals. They feel it. It’s a constant thing to feel it, so both of you, maybe you could help me with this. How can we help our listeners notice even the bishop, the stake president, the Relief Society president, the young women’s president, there’s a heavy weight there and they could use our sustaining vote rather than our criticism.

John Bytheway: 00:31:55 When I became a bishop, I became aware of things about good folks that no one else probably knew. I had to make decisions working around things. I heard, why didn’t you ask this person this, this? And I knew why, but no one else did. There’s a weight there, and I remember consciously going, I will never question this sort of thing again of leaders. I remember consciously going, okay, I see this. Another thought I had, Hank, was when Joseph Smith, Liberty Jail, and Jesus says, “Thy friends do stand by thee.” When I thought about who else was standing by Joseph, it was Peter, James, John, John the Baptist. It was Jesus, and I thought, if I’m not standing by Joseph, I’m not standing by them either. That was a profound thought to me of am I going to stand by him or not? So I appreciate you just bringing that up.

  00:32:56 Sometimes I hear the verbiage, if you will sustain this person, please sustain them by raising your hand, and I’m like, no, actually we are signifying that we will sustain them through the duration of their calling with our love and our heart and everything. We just signify it by this is not sustaining somebody. This is saying that you will sustain them, but sustaining them will be for the duration. That means a lot when you see those hands go up, when you’re the one that is aware of your own faults and you’re watching your congregation say, well, get behind this. Brought up a lot of things with your question there.

Hank Smith: 00:33:38 That’s awesome, John, I love that sustaining thought.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:33:41 John, that was so helpful and Hank, I love that question on how do we sustain. It brings me back to these verses here at the end of chapter one, verse 17, where Jacob says, “Wherefore I Jacob gave unto them these words as I taught them in the temple, having first obtained my errand from the Lord.” I think we’re seeing Jacob, as I said, he’s becoming a leader and there is one question that we get from youth and young adults all the time and even people our own age and older, is how do I know what the Spirit is saying to me?

  00:34:10 Jacob had to pay a very heavy price to receive his errand from the Lord. It’s not like all of a sudden you become a prophet and the Lord just tells you everything. You have to pay the price. So number one I think is we have to respect the amount of work that these leaders have done throughout their lives to be in a position where they really have obtained their errand from the Lord, and we have to respect that this comes from a lot of sweat and tears.

  00:34:33 I remember my parents praying for my brothers and sisters that were serving missions and we fasted for them so that they would know the errand of the Lord. I remember being in financial difficulties and them just fasting and praying, and I think there is a very heavy price that President Nelson, President Oaks, women of the church and leaders are paying. I asked Sister Dalton just recently when you were going up to speak to all the women, the young women of the church, how was that? And she just kind of laughed at first. “Oh, it was easy,” and then she got really serious and just said, “It was a heavy burden. It caused anxiety for me and them knowing how much they had going forward.” And she was so real, and I appreciated the realness. All of us having spoken maybe in a smaller setting and things, but we also have to pay a heavy burden and heavy price to know the errand of the Lord.

  00:35:19 Sister Julie Beck recently in a conversation with her, she just said, “Barb, one of the hardest parts about speaking publicly, speaking at all, but especially publicly, is you pay attention to the Spirit until you say in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. When you’re speaking to people, that’s a heavy price. You are constantly trying to be pure. You’re constantly trying to be clean. You’re constantly trying to receive the errand of the Lord for those people, and it takes a lot of work.” I know for me personally, when I’m asked to speak at firesides and different things, I cringe at saying yes sometimes, although I love serving, I love speaking and I love helping any way, but I know what that is going to require of me in my personal life as I am trying to focus on one stake after another or one classroom after another. This is a longer answer than you wanted, but first of all, recognize that they have paid a heavy price as Jacob has to receive their errand from the Lord, and I think a second thing in here is where they’re talking about magnifying their office unto the Lord, taking upon us the responsibility and answering the sins of the people upon our own heads. That is such a heavy responsibility. I’m just going to give this an analogy. One day I was walking up a hill towards a school and I saw three little kids. I’m about ready to cross the crosswalk to go to the elementary school where they were. I watched the first two little boys on their bikes. They crossed the street and as they were crossing the street, it was a crosswalk, and so this car pulled ahead and just stopped, but as they were crossing, the third little child who’s a little girl, went right in front of them and just fell right off her scooter.

  00:36:48 Long story short, the person in the front just kept waiting, but as that person was waiting, more cars kept coming behind. The second car came and the second car got there, the car was going nowhere. The boys had obviously gone across the street. They had no idea that there was a little girl on the ground and they just started honking the horn. Just honk, honk, honk, trying to get the first one… It was like, get off your cell phone, pay attention. You could just see it, and I was watching from far enough away that I could see exactly what was going on. The person honking had no idea. Then the third car came up and started honking at the second one, they’re both yelling and they’re both honking. This girl eventually stands up and walks across the street and the sight of the second car and the third car, and the looks on their faces when they saw that if what the car had done was in accordance with what they had wanted, a little girl would have been killed that morning.

  00:37:36 And they were completely embarrassed and shocked. The driver in the front gently pulled forward and kept going. There was no fight on his part, and to me, I guess an answer to that question, it is, as President Eyring says, “Sometimes we’re in a different chair and where we sit makes all the difference.” Of course, as leaders, we want to make sure that we are being wise and conscientious and following and receiving our errand from the Lord, but for those of us,

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:38:00 the second and third and fourth car back and the 10th car back or the 100th car back, I think there’s a level of respect that we need to give to that front car. Just remember that there are some things we just simply cannot see no matter how smart we think we are and how experienced we are in the world. In a sense where he says that their blood may not come upon my garments and that moment at that first car would’ve gone forward, the blood of that child would’ve been on him and that’s a scary position to be in. So I’m so grateful he stood his ground and did not listen to anybody.

Hank Smith: 00:38:29 Barb, what a great way to teach that. One of those things I get a little frustrated and I won’t show my frustration here, is you hear a talk in general conference and you automatically … He shouldn’t have said it this way. She shouldn’t have said it that way. They could have said this so differently. I kind of bristle going, “Well, don’t shoot the messenger. That may be that likely is what the Lord would say.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:38:56 Hank, I’ll give you one more example. Back in, I think it was 2000, President Oaks gave a talk about hanging out and maybe a different situation today, but in that moment, I was with, I don’t know, 20 young adults. We were all a little bit older. The women had all just cooked dinner for all the young men. I mean, we did exactly what he told us not to do. We were just hanging out watching this fireside, not knowing that he was about ready to call us on the carpet, right? And at the end of the talk, I remember him talking about Peter Pan and not having taken upon ourselves the responsibility and everything else. And then he says, “Women stop doing that.” And at the end of this 20-plus of us sitting there together in this room in Salt Lake City, the men quietly got up and left and didn’t say a word and also didn’t help just like he said, but that’s okay. Church is still true.

  00:39:45 But in that moment, all of us as women said, we’re not going to do this anymore. President Oaks has just spoken and we are going to follow him. But I loved at the end of his talk where he said, “Look, I’m a general authority and some of you may be tempted to write me a letter and tell me about your personal circumstances and things. Don’t worry about it. I am giving a general talk.” I love that he said that. But I will say, we could have all just said, what an old man who has no idea what we’re going through and in our day, we do need to hang out and we’re all single and woe was us and everything else. But instead, I was so grateful for my friends in that moment who all said, “We’re not doing this anymore. We’re going to follow the council of President Oaks and we’re going to stop hanging out.”

  00:40:23 And in that next, I would say five years, probably 75% of us either married each other or married somebody that was a friend of somebody in that group. Again, as Jacob talks about earlier, it’s all about agency, but it would’ve been, and in so many cases it is so easy to just say they don’t understand me, they’re just speaking to everybody else but not me. And we could have all been very offended and we could have all said, “He doesn’t understand that if we don’t hang out, we’re not going to be happy people.” I was grateful for my friends who were strong enough to say, “You know what, let’s put it to the test. Let’s follow the prophet and see what happens.” And sure enough, he was right. Surprise, surprise. But to your point, I am with you completely. It is hard to see that people who literally give their lives to the Lord are sometimes run under the bus of the worldly.

Hank Smith: 00:41:07 Yes. So quickly.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:41:09 Yep.

John Bytheway: 00:41:10 Just yesterday I was attempting to teach some applications of the war chapters and they make heaps of earth and then they make a work of timbers and then they make a frame of pickets and then they make a tower and then they put people in the towers. What can the people in the towers do that nobody else can? Well, they can see. Right. So imagine a watchman in the tower going, “Behold, danger approacheth 2:00.” And imagine us going, “I don’t see any danger.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:41:38 That is exactly right.

John Bytheway: 00:41:40 Yeah. You’re on frame of picket maintenance. I can see it. I’m looking at it right here. And I love that idea of just like the person in the car, they could see something no one else could see. I love that they got to see when this little girl walked across. Oh, and if we can have that kind of humility right now and say, maybe they see something I don’t see. Hank, I’ve heard you talk about the Matthew 26:22 thing, “Lord, is it I?” When you hear a talk like that and Barbara, you and your friends, wow, it’s pretty cool that you did that after hearing that talk.

Hank Smith: 00:42:12 So good.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:42:13 And frankly, John, I’ll be honest, it was hard. I mean, when you’re in your early thirties, we didn’t see a lot of hope around the horizon of getting married. We were in a point where we thought we were all going to be single, and if we don’t hang out with our friends, that’s a level of loneliness that is very real that sets in for those of us who are getting a little bit older. And so we say, “We’re going to trust the Lord on this,” and the reality is most of the time, we don’t ever have the chance to see the little girl get up and walk across the street. No, we have to trust.

Hank Smith: 00:42:40 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:42:40 Yep. But eventually, he will make himself known. He will always prove himself to us. Sometimes it takes a little bit longer. Can I throw out one more thing that I think is important in this chapter in the end of chapter one and going into chapter two is that idea of magnifying your office. I throw this out as a woman and I throw this out because sometimes when we think about magnifying our office, we think we’re speaking to men in priesthood offices, which is true, but perhaps a reminder to all of us that when women are set apart, called to an office, we are responsible and are given priesthood power and authority to magnify that office and that our responsibility, just as it is for men, is to save the souls of the children of God.

  00:43:19 All men and women, women and men, have the mandate to magnify our office and that we all have this responsibility to bring souls unto Christ. And it does make sense that we do have some anxiety, I would say the holy anxiety in a sense almost to care so much for the welfare of their souls because we have been given these responsibilities and this is our day and age as it says Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. If we do fulfill and magnify our callings in our offices that we will have all that the Father has. As a reminder, although he has anxiety, but at the same time with this anxiety comes the possibility of incredible blessings. And becoming heirs to all that God has as women and men is perhaps seemingly selfish but not really selfish when we’re talking about receiving all that God has means we are going to have eternal families. And that’s what we want.

  00:44:07 A shout-out I guess for women and men to understand when we’re magnifying offices, we’re fulfilling callings, we’re using God’s power and authority in our lives to bless the souls of our brothers and sisters.

Hank Smith: 00:44:17 Wonderful. We’ve made it through one chapter, so should we move into chapter two?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:44:22 Let’s do it.

Hank Smith: 00:44:24 What do you see here?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:44:25 Chapter two, it’s almost chapter one is setting the stage for us and helping us to see a little bit of who Jacob is and with his calling and what he’s been told to do and setting the stage, it’s almost like Nephi is now dying. He’s giving us some background of his charge. He’s received this errand from the Lord. This is a sign of an incredible leader. In 17, his errand is of the Lord and he doesn’t tell us quite yet what it is. But right before that, in verses 15 and 16, he tells us that he’s going to be dealing with David and the wickedness of those who are doing what David and Solomon once did, and he’s also going to be talking about lifting up your heart into pride. 17, he’s now telling us, “The errand of the Lord that I have been given is going to be now shared with you” in chapter two.

  00:45:09 I want to make it clear as he’s going into chapter two that he has received this errand from the Lord. He’s going to do the will of the Lord. He doesn’t really have much of a choice, so he’s going to these people as it says in verse seven. He says, “It grieveth me that I must use so much boldness of speech concerning you before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and chaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God.” And then, “It supposes me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing word of God. Yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul. Wherefore,” in verse nine, “It burdeneth my soul that I should be constrained because of the strict commandments which I have received from God to admonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded instead of consoling and healing their wounds. And those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing words of God, have daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds.”

  00:46:02 This is not a talk he wants to give. That’s so clear. But it is the talk according to verse 17 and chapter one, that the Lord has given to him and that is a sign of a true leader. This is not my will versus thy will, it is thy will be done. Jacob has clearly no interest in having this discussion. He clearly doesn’t want to bring them down. He doesn’t want to have this hardness for these wonderful people, but at the same time, he has received his errand from the Lord. There are serious problems going on. He is now the prophet and he’s going to have to wound some delicate souls per se in order to follow through with what the Lord would have him do.

  00:46:39 So that’s what we’re seeing now in chapter two is a prophet who is being called of the Lord to do the Lord’s will and his desire is to do the Lord’s will, but that doesn’t mean that he necessarily wants to be the messenger, but he’ll do it because he’s the prophet and because he’s a leader. He’s a disciple of Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:46:55 Pride over wealth and sexual sin. It’s almost as if this book was written for our day.

John Bytheway: 00:47:02 Imagine that.

Hank Smith: 00:47:03 I’m sure glad we don’t struggle with that anyway in this world.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:47:07 Yeah, clearly.

John Bytheway: 00:47:09 Barbara, I’m really glad you said what you did about Jacob. He doesn’t want to give this talk. It’s not a fun talk to give and it reminds me of a few instances. In April 1989, President Ezra Taft Benson just gave that classic talk, Beware of Pride. He was so sick he didn’t even give it. I think President Hinckley read it, but he said, “I know the Lord wants this talk given now.” In the beginning of it, Elder Lawrence Corbridge gave this talk at BYU, maybe 2019, called Stand Forever. The beginning of that talk, he said, “I actually wrote two or three others.”

  00:47:42 And then one more, Elder Dallin H. Oaks. So this is April 2005. He began by saying this, “My fellow holders of the Melchizedek Priesthood and also our young men, I wish to speak to you today about pornography. I know that many of you are exposed to this and that many of you are being stained by it. In concentrating my talk on this subject, I feel like the prophet Jacob who told the men of his day that it grieved him to speak so boldly in front of their sensitive wives and children, but not withstanding the difficulty of the task. He said he had to speak to the men about the subject because God had commanded him. I do so for the same reason.”

  00:48:22 Wow. That’s a burden and that’s a weight to do that. Hank and Barbara, I know you guys give talks and people ask me, “Do you get nervous?” And I usually say, “I don’t get this kind of nervous,” but it’s always, am I in tune? Am I prepared? I don’t want the Lord to say, “Well, you made them laugh, but you didn’t teach them anything” someday. He gives us this spectrum, Jacob does. You probably came here to hear the pleasing word of God, which healeth the wounded soul. I’ve heard talks like that and I love them, but instead, I have to speak and enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded. Sometimes those talks, we need those and other times we need our souls to be healed and the pleasing word of God, thank heavens we have inspired church leaders, men and women who are inspired to get up and say, “I’m going to tell you what I’m going to tell you because the Lord asked me to.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:49:23 To both of you, that also reminds me of 1995, the Family Proclamation with President Hinckley. I’ve been doing a number of interviews with Sister Elaine Jack. She’s been incredible to interview and we’ve talked recently about the background of President Hinckley giving that talk. And one of the things that has really stood out to me is she and her presidency were really kind of doing a research about the needs of the women throughout the world. And they had gone and spoken personally and tried to gather the needs and they were preparing a general conference, their women’s conference for that evening in September of 1995.

  00:49:58 And Elaine said that she could not be settled on what she should be sharing, and she had said that they had a video that they had prepared that she decided that she didn’t think that that video should be shared. She was being very cautious because she was trying to be careful with her counselors and things, but she’d said she felt sick about it and didn’t know what to do. But it was in that timeframe that President Hinckley, who was just called as the prophet, President Hunter had just passed away shortly before that. The members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve had been working on that sacred document and he contacted Sister Jack and her counselors and asked if they could meet with him. And they did.

  00:50:31 They were so excited and he said to them, “I’ve been thinking about the possibility of sharing this document on the family and I’m wondering, what do you think? Is it possible? Well, how would you feel about me actually giving this talk?” They hadn’t read it yet, but Elaine said that she was so grateful, first of all, that he asked them their thoughts about it. But also, he sensed that there was just such a heavy responsibility that he was feeling as the prophet. But if you remember, before he gave that talk, he started it with this paragraph, before he gave the Family Proclamation.

  00:51:02 He starts with this paragraph, he says, “With so much of  sophistry that is passed off as truth, with so much of deception concerning standards and values, with so much of allurement and enticements to take on the slow stain of the world, we have felt to warn and forewarn. In furtherance of this, we of the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles now issue a proclamation to the church and to the world as a declaration and the reaffirmation of standards, doctrines and practices relative to the family, which the prophet, seers, and revelators of this church have repeatedly stated throughout this history.”

  00:51:34 And then he says, “I now take this opportunity to read this to you.” Right before he does that, he shares a letter that he receives from a woman who was really struggling with the relationship with her husband and some abusive situations that were happening. And he says, “This is going to be the answer for so many of you.” And again, to your point, I believe that this was a difficult document. I believe that they’re prophets, seers, and revelators and they saw into the future how on many occasions this document may be undermined or people wishing that the prophets hadn’t have shared it or that it wasn’t a proclamation and things of that nature. But in this case, President Hinckley speaking as the prophet says, “This is going to be one of these answers.”

  00:52:13 And I wanted to share this letter because it fits so well with Jacob too and what’s going on. He says, “I received this letter on Monday.” So this is the Monday right before conference. He says, “The woman writing the letter writes: 20 years ago, last June, I was expecting a new baby and had five other little children, nine years and under. My husband chose to leave our family and walk another path. I wish I could say I was a noble pioneer, but rather I was a naive, frightened, insecure, young mother who did not know what to do and who daily made foolish mistakes. Nevertheless, I sought counsel from my leaders and obeyed even when I knew their advice would make my life more complicated. I decided it was not for me to question. And if some advice caused temporary pain for me, it must be something I should experience.”

  00:52:56 She continues: “I remember reading President Kimball’s monthly message in the Ensign where he promised that if we would read the scriptures daily that every problem we face during the day would be answered with those Holy pages. I thought, okay, President Kimball, you’re on. I have lots of problems that they sure do need answers. I gathered my children around me and we studied daily, we prayed, we fasted for our daddy and ourselves. We held family home evening and attended our meetings. We forgave our daddy and I literally gave my agency back to my Heavenly Father. I told him if I was not to have my husband for eternity as I’d originally thought, I would be pleased if he would change the love I had for him as a wife into a Christ-like love, because I would rather die than go on another minute hating or resenting the father of my children. I did not want to teach anger, hate or bitterness to them. I knew my husband was basically a good man full of potential and talent. He had made a terrible mistake and I knew he would reap his own heartaches and he has. But my personal task at hand was to care for those soon-to-be six children and to teach them in such a way that they could not misunderstand the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

  00:53:56 “President Hinckley, this is a miracle if ever there was a miracle.” The Lord protected and nurtured those children. He answered their prayers. He continues on. Then President Hinckley says this, “I do not share a story with you, she writes, to brag of myself, but I certainly can boast in the Lord. Atonement is very real for us. Wounded hearts have been healed, confidence has been restored, peace has been tasted in the most delicious way. Indeed, as you have said, every principle God has revealed carries its own conviction of truth. I think of my first husband, if he could only realize he has already paid the price for his mistakes. He missed the joy of seeing his talented children grow up in the Lord. He missed their school and their church achievements, their mission farewells, and their reports. All that makes life sweet. How thankful I am that I was privileged to be by their sides.” And then finally, I know this is long.

  00:54:42 “I know there are many single parents in the world today. How I wish I could help them see that they must never waste time reliving their own tender injuries. I have found if you cast your burden at the Savior’s feet, he will carry it for you and replace anguish with love. May the Lord bless you and your family always with deepest love and appreciation.” Then she signed the letter. I share this letter with you because I’m seeing this in what’s happening here in Jacob too, and there are so many letters that are just like that, and that is the letter and that is the expression, and that is the struggle that leads to the family proclamation. That’s how President Hinckley leads it in. This is how Jacob leads it in. He starts by saying, “There are so many people that are sorrowing and I need to talk to you,” and he’s speaking to men in this case, and he’s saying that “I have women and men here,” and I also want to make it very clear that there are women and men who both struggle and that it is not just one gender or the other that is causing and is not one or the other that is needing to repent and is not one or the other who is abusive or being abused.

  00:55:39 The problem that Jacob is seeing here is that there are people who are acting in pride and there are people who are acting in ways that demeans one person over the other or under the other. And that’s back to your talk on pride. That is the real issue with pride is it’s putting one person above another. Usually, it’s ourselves above someone else or below someone else.

  00:55:57 So to your point with Jacob not wanting to say these things, I do believe President Hinckley wanted to say the truth, but I think it’s coming from a place of heaviness. It’s coming from a place as Jacob is of trying to help people. He’s seen too many wounded hearts. He’s seen too many people deal with the sadness of life and he wants to help, but it is a hard, hard conversation to have. But he’s going to do it because he’s on the errand of the Lord and he will speak what the Lord has put into his heart to speak. They’re disciples of Christ. They’re not on their own errand.

  00:56:28 It’s very similar to what … Is it Mother Teresa? She says, “I’m a little pencil in God’s hands. He does the thinking, he does the writing, he does everything, and sometimes it is really hard because it is a broken pencil and he has to sharpen it a little more.” That’s what Jacob is. He’s a pencil in God’s hands. He’s been given as errand. It’s hard, but he also wants these people to have happiness and he is going to serve the Lord. He’s a true leader. He’s a covenant leader of God.

John Bytheway: 00:56:55 So good. When I was a young adult, just home from a mission, I had, she was actually, especially for youth speaker, an experienced mother, an older woman. She used the analogy of you have a blind spot. Like when you’re driving and you don’t see. She could have just said, “Oh, I just love you,” but how loving was it to hold up a blind spot? I mean, if God really loves us, he’s going to correct us. I’m so grateful for talks like that that can, because I love you, I need to show you what you’re doing, and this is what Jacob had to do there and it weighed on him. How grateful we are, still benefiting from what Jacob said to his people.

Hank Smith: 00:57:46 It reminds me of 2 Nephi 1. Remember Lehi, Laman and Lemuel, “That which you call anger is the truth.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:57:51 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:57:55 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:57:56 I love in verse nine where it says, “Wherefore it burden my soul that I should be constrained because of the strict commandments which I have received from God to admonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded instead of consoling and healing their wounds. And those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing word of God, have daggers placed in their souls and wounded their delicate minds.” These are strong words and there’s a temptation that even I have that says, we get it. We get it there. People are struggling in some ways. I think it’s extremely important that we also don’t minimize this.

  00:58:25 We’re going to talk about it even more as we go forward in chapter three, but at the same time to say the end of chapter two, we have Jacob. He says, “Behold, you have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren, you have broken the hearts of your tender wives. You have lost the confidence of your children because of your bad examples before them and the sobbing of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God which cometh down against you, many hearts died pierced with deep wounds.” This isn’t, we’re just going to cover this over and not worry about it, and please don’t do this anymore. This is, we have some serious issues going on here, men and women, and we have prophets and apostles teaching us these things today, and this is not to be skirted under the carpet.

  00:59:09 We have Elder Kearon recently and others who’ve talked about abuse and anger and calling people to repentance. And this is a sign that Jacob understands that there is a real need here, and these individuals do need to repent and these individuals do need to watch themselves carefully. I think it’s fascinating that Jacob actually says earlier, “It’s not that you’ve already done these things. I know that you are going to do these things.” He’s seeing the intents of their hearts. He has this discernment.

  00:59:35 He says, you are going to be doing these things, which I personally think is a very powerful part in verse five, chapter two, verse five, he says, “Behold hearken ye unto me and know that by the help of the all powerful creator of heaven and earth, I can tell you concerning your thoughts, how that you are beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable unto me, yea and abominable unto God. Yea and grieveth my soul and cause me to shrink with shame.” It’s not just that they’re doing it. He’s actually saying, you are thinking about doing these things and let me warn you about what you are about to do. Then he really gets into this discussion about how bad these things really can be.

Hank Smith: 01:00:13 I liked what you said. You said the wealth isn’t the problem, it’s pride that’s the problem. What do you think is happening here? Why is it that when we become wealthy that some of us, not all of us of course, but some of us drift toward this pride, this almost hatred of other people?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:00:32 I think that the answer is really what we’re seeing in verse 12 and 13. I love that Jacob says, “Get them up into the temple on the morrow and declare the word.” The Lord is saying this, “declare the words, which I shall give unto you.” And then he says, “Now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you that many of you have begun to search for gold and for silver.” And then he talks about what they’re doing. And then verse 13, this is where the kicker is. He says, “And the hand of Providence has smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren, you are lifted up in the pride of your hearts.” Now, notice the words more. So now we’re saying the problem isn’t the money, it’s the comparison.

  01:01:09 And then he says, “And wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel and persecute your brethren because you suppose that you are better than they”, so we have more and better. “And now my brethren, do you suppose that God justifies you in this thing? Behold I say unto you, nay, he condemneth you. And if ye persist in these things, his judgments must speedily come unto you.” The problem isn’t the money, the problem isn’t the wealth. The problem isn’t the land, the problem’s not the jewelry. It has nothing to do with that. And that may be that some people, if they get money, they tend to be that way, but that’s not his problem. The problem is that they think that they are more and they think that they are better. That’s what President Benson discusses. He discusses the initial reason for the pride and it’s the comparison of one person to another.

  01:01:55 Actually in his talk he says, “The central feature of pride is enmity. Enmity towards God, enmity towards our fellow man. It is this power which Satan wishes to reign over us.” And he says another major portion of this very prevalent sin is “enmity towards our fellow men. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above another and diminish them.” And then I love this, he quotes C.S Lewis and he says, “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something. Only out of having more of it than the next man. It is the comparison that makes you proud, the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” And then he continues with this, which I love. He says, “Pride is a sin that can readily be seen in others but is rarely admitted in ourselves. Most of us consider pride to be a sin of those on the top, such as the rich and the learned looking down on the rest of us. There is, however, a far more common element among us, and that is pride from the bottom looking up.”

  01:02:51 It doesn’t matter if it’s from the bottom looking up or the top looking down, the problem is the comparison between the two and one person thinking that they are more righteous because they’re so humble. That’s the irony of humility and pride is that person is so prideful. The moment we say that person is so prideful, we’re being prideful. That’s the ugly reality of pride is pride is a comparison and it’s putting you in a position. So if you’re more righteous than the other person, you are actually probably the prideful one. That’s the concern with this pride, but that is what’s happening. And because of the pride, they’re putting their people in a very, very precarious and dangerous situation. This pride is what leads to racism. This pride is what leads to gender inequality. This pride is what leads to the destruction of a people. It’s the pride that President Nelson and President Oaks have warned prolifically over the last few years regarding how we need to treat other people and see each other as God’s children. That is the issue.

  01:03:45 And then you see that in verse 18. He says, “But before you seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God. After you obtained a hope in Christ, you shall obtain riches if you seek them and you’ll seek them for the intent to do good. To clothe the naked, to feed the hungry, to liberate the captive and to administer relief to the sick and the afflicted. And now my brethren, I have spoken unto you concerning pride.” And this is the key. A wealthy person who is humble will do whatever he can to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry and to liberate the captive. And what we were trying to do is God’s purpose is to save the souls of the children of men. And if you have money, you’re able to do it in a way that is different from somebody else. The reality is we’re all trying to consecrate ourselves and to become unified and become one just as the Savior was.

  01:04:31 So the issue is not the wealth. The issue is the motivation and the desire and the understanding of who we are as children of God and all of us becoming eventual heirs to the throne. One of the things I love about God is he’s not trying to keep us below him. He’s trying to help us become like him. And pride is Satan’s tactic of there is Satan who receives the glory and all of us in a sense stay below him. That is not the Lord’s way. He wants us to all receive what he has. He wants all of us to be heirs to the throne. He wants all of us to use this. Is his power for the salvation and the joy of other people. That’s what we’re searching here, and that’s why in a sense, this becomes so dangerous. It’s because in this case for Jacob, he sees the utter destruction, the possibility of what happens. He saw the pride of his own brothers. He does not want it happening here.

  01:05:16 The Lord is calling him to come out and speak to this. Pride is a dangerous sin. Pride is what caused the fall of the Lamanites. Pride is the warning of President Nelson for us in our day. Sometimes I’m afraid that we may not understand how absolutely destructive pride can be. I’ll give you one more quote from President Benson here. He says, “Pride adversely affects all of our relationships, our relationship with God and his servants, the relationship between husband and wife, parent and child, employer and employee, teacher and student and all mankind. Our degree of pride determines how we treat our God and our brothers and sisters. Christ wants to lift us to where he is. Do we desire that same thing for others?”

  01:05:55 And then of course God will have a humble people, Alma 32. He’s going to have a humble people. Whether we decide to be humble or not, we will be humble. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. For us I almost think the question is how painful is it going to be for us to get to that process? President Benson talks about this, but one of the antidotes to pride really is love. Seeing people as God sees them, and that comes from keeping covenants and making covenants, which that leads us into this next part, but if we’re a covenant keeping people, then we shouldn’t be filled with pride. It’s a hard thing to understand.

Hank Smith: 01:06:29 The manual references Because I Have Been Given Much, Hymn 219 Because I have been given much, I too must give. Because of thy great bounty Lord, each day I live. I shall divide my gifts from thee with every brother that I see who has the need of help from me. Just beautiful. Can I read you something from Brigham Young? “The worst fear I have about this people is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and his people, wax fat and kick themselves out of the church and go to hell. This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty and all manner of persecution and be true, but my greatest fear is that they cannot stand wealth.”

John Bytheway: 01:07:12 I have used that quotation in my classes before and I say, “How many of you woke up in the middle of the night having this nightmare and you were so glad you woke up?” Oh, I had this dream that I got rich. It was just a horrible, horrible trial.

Hank Smith: 01:07:24 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:07:25 I love that Brigham Young would say this, people will stand all of this and they’ll be true. Do you know what this reminds me of? President Nelson has said that really quotable line about the joy we feel has less to do with the circumstances of our lives and more to do with the focus of our lives. And a lot of times we look to Christ in times of hardship and poverty. Now, Jacob’s people are being tested, will you look to Christ in a time of abundance or will you switch real estate? You’ve built your heart on Christ, you’ve built your foundation on Christ. Now, are you going to build your foundation on your stuff? That’s a different challenge. Will you still focus on Christ when you have abundance in your life? Thankfully, as you’ve mentioned, we all know people who do and who have, and it’s inspiring to know people that are pretty wealthy but who are so consecrated.

Hank Smith: 01:08:21 I like my trials in cash too, John.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:08:26 Isn’t it nice?

John Bytheway: 01:08:28 Can I read a really cool Old Testament verse that I think is so fascinating? This is Ezekiel 16:49. “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom.” We all know what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. Pride, fullness of bread, which is a great way to say abundance. When its famine, it says cleanness of teeth in the Old Testament, but when there’s abundance, it’s pride, “fullness of bread and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters. Neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.” What a great description. The idea of abundance of idleness is part of this. You have time to seek gold and silver. You’re not thinking every day, how do I feed my family? Now you’ve got leisure time and that’s a doorway to a lot of temptation when you’ve got nothing to do. There’s an old saying that Jesus chose his disciples when they were working. Satan chooses his when they’re idle.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:09:29 Oh, that’s really good. That’s what Nephi does when he’s separating himself from his brothers and that’s one of the first things you see them do is that hard work, that industriousness that comes through there. I love in verse 18 where it says, “But before you seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.” That solves so many problems. It’s really about our motivation. Richness is relative. It’s that comparison that’s the problem. It’s all relative, but the answer for so much of this is before you seek for riches, seek you first the kingdom of God. There’s a great quote from Elder Maxwell. He says this, “Therefore, what we insistently desire over time is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in the eternity. If we desire to get rich, we’re going to lose it all anyway. If we desire to build up the kingdom of God, we are going to be in the next life abundantly filled with the relationships of people that we genuinely desire to serve and bring unto the Lord.”

  01:10:24 I think that’s what’s so beautiful about Jacob. You just know that he is seeking the kingdom of God. We don’t know his wealth status, we have no idea. But there’s one thing we do know about Jacob and that is his intentions and his motivations are pure, so it seems. He’s seeking the kingdom of God and he’s seeking whatever he can do to help people. It’s the same motivation of King Benjamin. It’s what we saw with Benjamin. It’s what we saw with Nephi. It’s what we see with Esther. It’s what we see with Sarah. It’s what we see with Eve. It’s this focus of both these women and men of trying to do all that they can to put their own lives in the hands of the Lord, to serve other people and bring them to Christ. That’s the issue. One of the best ways we get rid of pride is to focus outward.

  01:11:05 Elder Bednar has this incredible talk called the Character of Christ, and in this talk he talks about reaching outward and reaching out beyond ourselves. This is one of the answers to this comparison. It’s putting ourselves in a position where we really are trying to clothe the naked and feed the hungry. He gives one story of a woman he was talking to on the phone. She was the Stake Relief Society president, and she calls him and tells him that there has been an accident and three of the young women in his stake have been involved and one of them has already passed away and they don’t have the identities of any of them.

  01:11:35 President Bednar, he’s the stake president is on the other line and he says, “Early one summer morning I was showering. My wife called me in the middle of my shower, indicated that I was needed immediately on the telephone. This was the day before cell phones and cordless phones. I quickly put on my robe and hurried to the phone. I next heard the voice of a dear sister and friend inform me of a tragic automobile accident that had just occurred in a remote area involving three teenage young women from my stake. Our friend indicated that one of the young women had already been pronounced dead at the scene of the accident and that the two other young women were badly injured and presently were being transported to the regional medical center in Fayetteville. She further reported that the identity of the deceased young woman was not yet known. There was an urgency in her voice, but there was no panic or excessive alarm. She then asked if I could go to the hospital, meet the ambulance when it arrived, and assist, assist in identifying the young woman. I answered that I would leave immediately.”

  01:12:29 Then he continues, ” During the course of our telephone conversation, as I listened to both the information being conveyed and the voice of our friend, I gradually became aware of two things. First, this friend’s daughter was one of the young women involved in the accident. Our friend lived approximately 35 miles from the hospital and therefore needed the assistance of someone who lived closer to the city. Second, I detected that the mother simultaneously was using two telephone handsets with one in each hand pressed to each of her ears. I became aware that as she was talking with me, she was also talking with the nurse at a small rural hospital who had initially attended to the three accident victims. Our friend was receiving updated information about the conditions of the young woman in the very moment she was informing me about the accident and requesting my help. I then heard one of the most remarkable things I have ever heard in my life. I faintly heard the nurse telling this faithful mother and friend that the young woman pronounced dead at the scene of the accident had been positively identified as her own daughter.

  01:13:29 I could not believe what I was hearing. I was listening to this good woman in the very moment that she learned of the death of her precious daughter. Without hesitation and with a calm and most deliberate voice, our friend next said, President Bednar, we must get in contact with the other two mothers. We must let them know as much as we can about the conditions of their daughters and that they will soon be in the hospital in Fayetteville. The Christ-like character of this devoted woman was manifested in her immediate and almost instinctive, turning outward to attend to the needs of the other suffering mothers. It was a moment and a lesson that I have never forgotten. In a moment of ultimate grief, this dear friend reached outward when I likely would’ve turned inward.”

  01:14:11 He then talks about going to the hospital, identifying these women and eventually finds that all three of them have been killed, and then he tells the next story of another mother who was a Ward Relief Society president, and after identifying that her daughter had also been killed, she was asked before speaking at a funeral, she receives a phone call from another woman who says, “I am sick and I need help and I need you to bring food to my house.” Not realizing that that exact day this mother was going to the funeral of her daughter. And he just says, these people are learning to think outward. This is the character of Christ. Although I recognize that this is such a high moral standard for all of us to live and difficult to even imagine, this is what Jacob is trying to teach here, that we need to care about each other, that we need to feed the hungry, liberate the captive, administer to relief to those who are afflicted.

  01:15:01 Everyone is our friend. Everyone is our brother and sister. Everyone is somebody that should be cared for and taken care of at the highest levels. And Jacob gets it, but it’s a hard lesson to learn. That’s his concern is that that is not happening among these people. They are comparing themselves and rather than serving and helping and lifting each other, they’re comparing and thinking they’re better than each other. That’s a serious sin, but something that in our day I think is perhaps too common.

Hank Smith: 01:15:28 Wow. Barb, what a story.

John Bytheway: 01:15:30 Yeah, that is brutal.

Hank Smith: 01:15:32 I remember back in April of 2010, Elder Uchtdorf talked about Center of the Universe syndrome. He says, “You can get center of the Universe syndrome, which leads people to believe that the world revolves around them and that all others are just supporting cast in the Grand Theater of Mortality in which they have the starring role.”