Hank Smith: 00:00:04 Hello my friends. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name’s Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host, John Bytheway, and our guest, Dr. Kerry Muhlestein. John, I think you’ll love the title of this week’s lesson. It says, “This Is the Way”.

John Bytheway: 00:00:20 I actually changed mine with a little red pencil and wrote, “This is by the way”.

Hank Smith: 00:00:24 By the way.

John Bytheway: 00:00:25 Didn’t go through Correlation. No. By the way, shows up in 2 Nephi 32, twice, and in 2 Nephi 31. I have some markings in my scripture probably nobody else has.

Hank Smith: 00:00:36 We might have to rename our podcast this week. This is by the way.

John Bytheway: 00:00:40 I don’t think that would pass either, but…

Hank Smith: 00:00:44 Hey, Kerry, we are in 2 Nephi 31 through 33. What are we looking forward to today? What are we going to do?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:00:51 This is some of the most impactful doctrine and chapters in the Book of Mormon, and we’re going to see that in a lot of ways, Nephi is summing up everything he learned from his vision. And he’s going to teach us some really fundamental things that then, I hope that our audience for the rest of studying the Book of Mormon will keep their eye out, because they’re going to see these themes, and we’ll look at some of the times that it comes back really clearly. But you’re going to find all sorts of other ways where it’s a little less clear, but the themes, the things that Nephi teaches, will just keep coming back to us as we get these most important and fundamental doctrines of the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith: 00:01:23 Fantastic. I’m excited. These are chapters I’ve read many times, but I have a feeling we’re going to see them in new ways today. John, Kerry is not new to our podcast, but he might be new to a handful of listeners, so can you give us a brief introduction?

John Bytheway: 00:01:37 Absolutely. We’re so thrilled to have him back, because we love Kerry Muhlestein. He’s a professor of ancient scripture, the author of several books such as Learning to Love Isaiah. I have my copy right here. It really has a strong Book of Mormon component to it as well. There’s a new book that he’s written, which talks about the covenant and relationship aspects of the Atonement. It’s called the Easter Connection. He’s also the host of the podcast, The Scriptures are Real, where they do deep dives into topics from Come Follow Me. And he hosts the TSAR website where there are master classes, daily thoughts, articles, lectures, and a lot of other deep dive materials. Sometimes we scuba, sometimes we water ski on the top. Kerry does a deep dive. So, come up for air and we’re glad to have you, Kerry. Thanks for joining us.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:02:25 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

Hank Smith: 00:02:27 We hope all of our listeners will go check out The Scriptures Are Real, and that website that you read, John, tsar.website. Kerry, let’s jump right into This Is the Way. I want to hear the Mandalorian music playing in the background. My daughter Madeline is a big Mandalorian fan, big Star Wars fan, so Maddie, if we can get the music played, that was for you. Here’s the opening paragraph of the manual, Kerry, and let’s see where we want to go.

  00:02:54 “Among Nephi’s last recorded words, we find this declaration, “The Lord commanded me, and I must obey.” This is a good summary of Nephi’s life. He tried to understand the will of God and courageously obeyed it, whether that meant risking his life to get the brass plates from Laban, building a boat, crossing the sea, or faithfully teaching the doctrine of Christ with plainness and power, Nephi could speak persuasively of the need to “press forward with a steadfastness in Christ”, of following the straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life, because that is the path he followed. He knew by experience that this path, though demanding at times is also joyful, and that “there is none other way nor name given under heaven, whereby man can be saved in the Kingdom of God”.”

  00:03:38 What a great opener. I don’t know who the writer of this manual is, but man, they have a wonderful gift. Kerry, with that, how do you want to go about this? Do we want to do an introduction or are we going to jump right into these verses?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:03:51 Let’s set a little context, then we’re going to do a pretest. This is how Nephi wraps up his last lecture as it were. Let’s review what 2 Nephi has been. 2 Nephi has been, it’s wound up the storyline to begin with, but then it’s been having his brother and Isaiah bear testimony of Christ. And then, we get a couple of chapters, and that’s what we’ve just finished, of Nephi talking about Isaiah’s witness of Christ and Covenant. Both Jacob and Isaiah, they’re focusing on Covenant and Christ, and Christ fulfilling the Covenant.

  00:04:19 And then, Nephi interprets that a little bit, and then we get to the chapters we’re in now, which is when Nephi is going to really clearly and plainly bear his own testimony of Christ. And as I said, it’s based in a lot of ways off of both his study of Isaiah and so on, but largely off of experiences that he had in his vision of the Tree of Life, and we’re going to see some of that language in there and him referring to that vision a few times. That’s where we get his bearing, or teaching us about the doctrine of Christ as his final farewell message, and his desire to really strongly bear testimony of Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:04:55 Kerry, I’ve been thinking as we’ve been studying, First and Second Nephi, we know from 2 Nephi 5 that he wrote this story late in life. Because you mentioned, he’s still relying on that dream. Do you think a lot of this was written really close together? Do you feel like 1 Nephi 1, 2 Nephi 33 was a short time period of putting it together?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:05:16 I don’t think we have enough data or information to really tell, but my impression is, once Nephi is… And this would fit in with his character. Once Nephi is told this is what he needs to do, he does it, so my guess would be we’re not looking at a decade in the writing. It probably takes a while to write. This is pretty impressive stuff and he’s carving it on metal, but the vision itself took place a long time before this.

  00:05:40 But I think you’re right, his rewriting of it couldn’t have been that long before, and he’s very intentional in the way he sets up the whole record, the whole small plates, First and Second Nephi, whatever we’d like to call them. For example, I had on Noel Reynolds, who talked about how he sees in 1 Nephi 10, couple of verses there, the theme of the entire plates. And he makes a pretty convincing argument that Nephi has intentionally crafted this to help us see, that if we will ask God and then choose to follow what God tells us to do, and we’re going to see that theme in what we’re going to talk about today.

  00:06:14 We’ll ask God what we should do, and then do it. If we make the choice… And we have those two choices, follow or not, but if we make the choice to follow that then these tender mercies and these amazing things happen to us. So, I think we will see that this is a pretty tightly themed and written work, that seems to have been planned out from the beginning. And that also indicates that Nephi didn’t drag this out over decades and decades.

Hank Smith: 00:06:37 Kerry, I think that’s a different lens than maybe you take on it when you first read it thinking, “Oh, it’s a day-by-Day journal. This took however many decades to write.” When really, it was a one-project thing. He’s late in life and he says, “Let me tell you my whole story.” And you’re right, I think the structure’s there, the themes are there. And we might forget 1 Nephi, as we move into 2 Nephi, but you’re telling us, “Hey, look for the dream. Way back in 1 Nephi 11-14, look for that in here.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:07:05 Yeah. And that theme of asking and following.

John Bytheway: 00:07:07 I love what you said, I think that you used the phrase last lecture, this is Nephi’s just about to sign off. What’s he going to give us. And not only the testimony of Christ, but I love how many times he’s going to ask us to follow Him. See what I did there? I just worked in the name of our podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:07:22 Oh, that was really good, John.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:07:24 I’m planning on doing that as well in case you’re wondering.

John Bytheway: 00:07:27 He tells us to follow Him and he tells us how to follow Him, and what to do, and then signs off. And I think more than just a last lecture off the top of his head, this has been crafted, and he’s stewed about this and thought about it, engraved it. And it’s a great way to sign off.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:07:45 And at the same time, I would say while it is carefully crafted, you still get… And these chapters we’re doing today are 2 Nephi 4 or something, this feeling of this outburst of deep-seated feeling, desire. He may have carefully crafted it, but he is still really feeling this as he writes this. It’s coming from the very tender spots of his heart.

Hank Smith: 00:08:06 Wonderful. Kerry, what a great way to set that up.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:08:08 I’m glad we can look at it and think of it that way. And now maybe, let’s jump in. I’d like to start off with how I start my class, and I’m going to ask you guys to guess what my students usually would respond, because you probably have students who would usually respond the same way. I start with a pre-test and I say, “Okay, I’m going to write up on the board. You guys tell me what are the elements of the doctrine of Christ,” because this is where we get that phrase, it comes from 2 Nephi 31, and we’ll see it comes from elsewhere in the scriptures, but this is where it’s introduced. What would you guess they tell me when we say what are the elements of the doctrine of Christ?

John Bytheway: 00:08:41 Now I’m nervous.

Hank Smith: 00:08:43 I know, me too. I’m like-

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:08:44 We want you to respond the way your students would respond. What would they typically respond?

Hank Smith: 00:08:48 It’s probably the same way I’d respond. I think they’d go to Article of Faith 4, faith, repentance, baptism, the gift to the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:08:55 And then throw on endure to the end.

Hank Smith: 00:08:56 Some would throw on endure to the end. Yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:08:59 Yeah. I think you’re right. And while that is absolutely no doubt part of the doctrine of Christ, I think we are limiting what it is a little bit because we import Article of Faith 4, which is also absolutely inspired and crucial. But we think, okay, that’s the whole story. I want to go through a little bit of a scripture study skill, and I know we’re all trying to magnify the way we can teach scripture study skills. I hope it will help us see that there’s a little bit more to it, and some crucial elements that are more than faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. As important as those are, I’m not belittling those. Those are still the core there, but there’s some other core elements.

  00:09:37 What we’re going to find is that Nephi uses a technique that is used by a lot of ancient writers, Israelites and elsewhere in the ancient near East, that we will call inclusios. That’s a phrase we often use to describe this. And it’s when they say at the beginning of something, here’s what I’m talking about, and then they say at the end, okay, that’s what I talked about. And so you know that everything in between is what they talked about. It fits under that topic. We want to look for the inclusios to begin with. We’ll see if we can find those. And then we’ll say, now we need to make sure that we understand that everything in here is part of the doctrine of Christ, and let’s not leave it out. Look in the first couple verses and tell me where does Nephi tell us, he’s going to teach us about the doctrine of Christ?

Hank Smith: 00:10:19 Kerry, I have it underlined in verse two, 2 Nephi 31:2. Is that the beginning?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:10:24 Yeah, that’s where he introduces it. It doesn’t take him long. Now that he’s winding up, this is his topic, this is his message and he’s not going to vary from it. So you get verse two, “Wherefore the things which I have written sufficeth me save,” he’s saying, I could be done, except this is what I have to do. “Save be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ. Wherefore, I shall speak unto you plainly according to the plainness of my prophecy.” That’s the beginning inclusio, telling us everything after this until I tell you I’m done, everything after this is the doctrine of Christ. We’re going to see the last verse in chapter 31 is that ending inclusio.

  00:11:01 Then in a little while we’ll see, he reopens it in 32. But verse 21, “And now behold my beloved brethren, this is the way.” This is the John Bytheway. “And there is none other way, nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the Kingdom of God”. So, notice how he’s focusing on Christ so much there. “And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ. And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without amen. He’s made it very very clear. Everything between verse two and verse 21 is the doctrine of Christ. That’s giving us our text to search through, and see if we can look and identify what is the doctrine of Christ. I think we’re going to see some patterns that are fantastic. And it is going to be everything we talked about, but I hope a little bit more.

  00:11:49 If we jump back in then, verse three tells us a little bit more about how excited he is to tell us this and to do it plainly. Verse four, we get a wherefore, “Because I’m going to speak the doctrine of Christ and because it should be plain.” So, that’s what that wherefore tells us. It’s linking those two things to what he’s doing now. “Because of all that, here’s what I need you to do,” is basically what he’s saying. “I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning the prophet, which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.” Immediately he’s hearkening back to his vision. This is where he learned about this is from his vision, but he poses us a question in verse five. Let’s explore this together, the questions that he asks us.

  00:12:32 First of all, “How much more need have we?” This is in verse five, “How much more need have we being unholy to be baptized yea even by water?” I want you to note we have a theme of Christ being holy that’s introduced. Keep that in mind. And that we need to be baptized. But then he asks, “I would ask of you my beloved brethren wherein the Lamb of God did fulfill all righteousness in being baptized by water. Know ye not that He was holy? but notwithstanding He being holy, He showeth unto the children of man that according to the flesh He humbleth himself before the Father and witnesseth unto the Father that He would be obedient unto Him in keeping His commandments.” So, it seems to me that he’s telling us first of all, if we want to answer question one, we need to answer question two a little bit more.

  00:13:15 Question two is, baptism we say is partially for having your sins washed away and being sanctified, and joining the church of the Lamb as it were. Well, He is the Lamb. He has no sins to be washed away. So, under our normal way of thinking about this, He has no need to be baptized. But there’s an interesting irony here, and that irony is that if He hadn’t been baptized then He would have need to be baptized, because His Father has commanded everybody that they have to be baptized. Christ would not be obedient if He weren’t baptized, but the emphasis here is that Christ does His Father’s will. He always does His Father’s will. And so, He humbles Himself and witnesses that He’ll keep the commandments. That’s one of the emphases, and we’re going to see that’s a theme that keeps coming up as we look at the doctrine of Christ that emphasizes all the more, how much we need it because we aren’t holy, we do have sins and we also need to be obedient. We also need to submit ourselves to the will of the Father. So, we have this double need.

Hank Smith: 00:14:25 He witnesses unto the Father, and I would add even by his action, not just necessarily his words, it’s my actions witness.

John Bytheway: 00:14:33 Yeah, he showeth. It’s not just telling. I’m going to show you by witnessing unto the Father that I would be obedient to keeping his commandments. He’s showing us not just do this but have an obedient heart. Heart that wants to do the will of the Father, and shows up. When it says, “Witness unto the Father”, my mind went to the sacrament prayer. And witness unto thee, oh God, the Eternal Father. We’re showing Him that when we take the emblems of the sacrament.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:15:00 Yeah. Which is when we renew what we did at baptism. And that’s the powerful thing, and you were mentioning this, Hank. One of the powerful things about baptism is that we bear witness by our actions. We become the symbol, we become the testimony. That’s powerful for us. It’s powerful that Christ did it. We can come back to some of these other verses, but let’s just jump to verse 10, to talk about what John was just saying there. “And He said unto the children of men, “Follow thou Me. Wherefore my beloved brother and how can we follow Jesus, save we should be willing to keep the commandments of the Father and then he is going to explain what those commandments are, so we’ll come back to that. In many ways, this is the whole point of verses four through 10, the reason Nephi is telling us what he saw in the vision and what Christ did, because he’s trying to teach us what you need to do is follow Him. It’s a catchy phrase when you think about it-

John Bytheway: 00:15:51 Follow Him.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:15:52 I don’t know if you thought of that phrase.

John Bytheway: 00:15:54 I like it. Jot that down, Hank. Yeah.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:15:56 But that really is what Nephi is trying to tell us here. He begins his leading point. It is about baptism, baptism’s definitely necessary but in a way baptism is Nephi’s tool for showing us we need to emulate Christ. That’s the key. We have to do whatever Christ did. And in this case it’s specifically baptism and then the other things that he’ll talk about. The real emphasis is follow Christ. Christ is the exemplar. We have to do what He did if this is going to work for us.

Hank Smith: 00:16:27 Kerry, this is like you said earlier, a direct connection to his vision. Way back 1 Nephi 11, he saw the baptism of Christ.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:16:34 Which also, Lehi and his dream did. We know he saw that as well. “From the very beginning…” I find that so powerful, from the beginning of the Nephite story, Lehi’s dream is right there at the beginning, and then Nephi’s vision follows right after. And they are given what they need then, that will still be Nephi’s guiding star at the end of his life, all these years later where they’ve set up a different civilization and everything else. At the very beginning, they were given the key elements that they needed. And it starts with follow Christ. We’re also going to see this rod, that the Word of God is another theme that is strong in this. So, everything was given to them that they needed at the beginning, but I think Nephi’s had a lifetime of trying to understand what he was taught when he was young.

John Bytheway: 00:17:17 Hey Kerry, could you talk about the fact that we’re talking about baptism here during an Old Testament era at least. And that the Book of Mormon seems to have baptism throughout, but we don’t even see the word baptism in the King James Old Testament, we see washing. Could you talk about that a little bit?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:17:34 There’s a lot that we don’t know about this. We can put together a couple little pieces of clues here and there. It’s clear from restoration scripture, from the Book of Moses that baptism starts with Adam. So, baptism is known about. Somewhere along the line as they have other washings introduced, it would seem that somehow the clarity of that gets lost. Now, I’m not sure how much that’s the case, because when we get to the New Testament story and you have John the Baptist, note the name, who’s doing baptism, it’s not like everyone’s saying, “Wow, that’s new. That’s different. That’s weird.” I don’t know if they’re just seeing this as a different ritual washing, or if there was some understanding that just is never conveyed in the Old Testament or something. But clearly in the Old Testament they don’t have the understanding of baptism that we have.

  00:18:19 That’s part of the importance of what Lehi and Nephi experience as they’re leaving Jerusalem. And I would argue that as they’re leaving Jerusalem, they’re going to continue to live the lower law, live the Law of Moses, but they’re going to be given a higher law understanding or higher gospel understanding. And that starts with that Lehi’s dreams and Nephi’s vision. Lehi has a few dreams that help him understand this, and then this vision, so that as they’re leaving, as they’re beginning this, they start to understand who Christ is in a different way and how to enter into that covenant with Him in a way that doesn’t seem to be… We have no record of that being part of the culture that they’ve come from. Now, I think there is some memory somewhere somehow, I don’t know. And I base that on, again, it was with Adam and it doesn’t seem to be shocking with John, but there’s zero evidence for it in the Old Testament. So, they are clearly developing a different Christology, and part of that is baptism as part of the covenant that is new, or renewed, or restored for them.

Hank Smith: 00:19:18 Excellent.

John Bytheway: 00:19:19 I love what you’re doing here. I’m looking at verse 10, “Save we shall be willing to keep the commandments,” there’s we can say, as you illustrated, oh yeah, doctrine of Christ, faith, repentance, baptism. Where’s our heart in all of this? I’m thinking of section 64, guys, “The Lord requireth the heart and the willing mind.” Where’s your heart? Are you willing to keep the commandments of the Father, and all that seems to be surrounding the doctrine of Christ. Am I getting that?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:19:45 Absolutely. And I would say that’s the beginning of the doctrine of Christ, is that you need to have your will swallowed up in God’s will. Jacob would say it, reconcile yourself to the will of God. Nephi expresses this in fact as just interviewing John Tanner, going through Nephi Psalm, 2 Nephi 4, and he talks about when we get to that part, “Make me to shaketh at the appearance of sin,” and he talks about how that’s an evidence of Nephi wanting to desire the same things God desires, and stay away from the same thing God wants to stay away from. He wants to have his will swallowed up in God’s will. Well, that is Christ incarnate. If you think of Christ, that’s what the Book of Mormon is going to teach us, primary characteristic of Christ. His will is swallowed up in the Father’s will. And I think that’s where Nephi is starting here. Now, that will lead us to baptism and all these other things as we’ll see, but it has to start with our desire to follow Christ the way Christ followed the Father.

John Bytheway: 00:20:39 The whole idea of a change of heart is in here, not just these actions of participate in these first ordinances, but this get your heart right with God. I love this.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:20:50 And I’d say that’s the key difference. If we’re going to look at what was going on in Jerusalem when Lehi and Nephi leave, and you see this with Laman and Lemuel. Among many, not everyone, but among many, there’s a pretty clear trend of thinking, we are doing what God asked us to do because we’re going through these motions, we’re offering sacrifices, we’re keeping the Sabbath day. But we learned in Jeremiah and elsewhere, while they’re also killing children, they’re worshiping idols, all these things. But they feel like God will protect them if they’re keeping the covenant, because they’re going through those outward motions.

  00:21:21 And Nephi and Lehi start trying to teach, no, it’s more than that. Because they come to understand, you’ve got to submit your will. And Jacob will join in on that as he gets old enough. You’ve got to submit your will, whereas Laman and Lemuel will say, “They’re not wicked, and Jerusalem can’t be destroyed.” And that has to be at least partially relying on we’re going through the motions. And Nephi here at the beginning of his teaching, this is not just about motions.” And we’re going to see he comes back to it in verse 13. But it’s not just about going through the motions, it’s about your heart wanting to desire what God desires.

Hank Smith: 00:21:52 When I get questions about baptism in the Old Testament, I look to the ways that water has been an important symbol. You have Noah and his family saved by baptism. Moses gaining freedom for the people through the Red Sea. Joshua entering the promised land through the Jordan River. Elisha, doesn’t he begin his ministry by passing through the Jordan. Baptism itself is there, but the symbolism of passing through the water to a new life is something that’s frequently shown.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:22:24 And I think it’s part of… So in fact, we may or may not have time to get to it, but one of the places I think you have the doctrine of Christ reiterated, is at the end of Moses 6, where God is teaching Adam. In there, he has the teaching that you are born through water, blood and the spirit, and then you have to be born again through water, blood and the spirit. And it’s explicitly part of the doctrine of Christ in that iteration and it is here. So, I would agree again that this idea is part of being changed, as John was talking about. The water washes you away, and then the water washes the world away, and then the Holy Ghost will make you more godly. So, we’ll look at that as we go along, but I think that’s absolutely part of it.

Hank Smith: 00:23:00 Justification sanctification.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:23:04 Which are the words that are used in Moses six when we go through that iteration of the doctrine of Christ. That’s exactly right. Let’s keep going. In verse 10, he’s told us you have to show that you’re willing to follow Jesus who is following God, and that’s a trail that they’re going to make explicit. Jesus follows God, we follow Jesus, therefore we are following God. That’s something Christ has taught so many times, Book of Mormon and New Testament, but we have to do that by keeping the commandments. So then he says, “And the father said, “Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of My beloved Son.”” That’s the commandment. That’s going to be his point. You’re not following God if you’re not doing what He told us to do. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me saying, “He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost like unto me, wherefore follow me and do the things which ye have seen me do.”

  00:23:52 That’s the reason for baptism. It’s twofold here. It’s because we want to do what God asked us to do, and that’s what he asked us to do. And it’s so that we can receive the Holy Ghost, and we’re going to see the Holy Ghost is a huge part of the doctrine of Christ. Those are the key elements, at least the way Nephi is phrasing it here. And repentance is certainly a part of that. We’re going to see eventually they’ll get into saying that you should believe as well. So faith is in there, but faith in all these iterations or faith or belief, doesn’t get mentioned as much as we would think. It’s certainly part of it, but it’s not the emphasis that we would guess.

  00:24:25 And then in verse 13, we get the part we were just talking about. “Wherefore my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent.” It has to be real. It has to be that your will really is swallowed up in God’s will, or at least you’re trying. That’s what you want. Even if you’re starting with the desire to have your will changed, that’s what God’s asking. Then all of these other things can happen, but if it’s not with real intent, then none of this actually works. None of us have pure intent. No one is 100% pure in their intent. That’s what this mortal probation is for and the atoning sacrifice of Christ is for, is to get us to that point. We’re not there yet, but if we’re trying, if we’re working on it, that’s what he’s looking for.

Hank Smith: 00:25:11 Now, if your real desire is to become what you hope one day to become instead of like you said, going through the motions.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:25:20 Exactly, so you may sometimes be talking to God and actually in my prayer this morning, this was something like, I’m praying for this and I want to be this. I know there’s a part of me that doesn’t. I really do. So, help me get to where the whole of me wants that instead of just most of me, or part of me wants that. It’s in those conversations where we’re really genuine with God, no hypocrisy, that I think we have the chance for true change, true sanctification.

Hank Smith: 00:25:46 Yeah. We sometimes try to cover our sins, don’t we? I don’t want to talk about that. Let’s not talk about that.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:25:52 Often to ourselves. We don’t want to admit there’s a part of me that really is carnal, fallen, devilish. Whatever scriptural phrases you want to use. We sometimes have to get to where we’ll admit that to ourself, and then we have to talk to God about it. That’s what Nephi’s telling us anyway. But when we do that with real intent, then we repent of our sins, witnessing unto the Father, this witness is going to be a big thing, that you’re willing to take upon you the name of Christ by baptism. Becoming like Christ, taking the name upon us. We have to be willing and then eventually we actually have to do it. And how do we do that? “Yea, by following your Lord and Savior down into the water according to His Word, then shall you receive the Holy Ghost.”

  00:26:31 We want to talk about the Holy Ghost a bit here, because the next bit’s going to be about the Holy Ghost. But I hope we can see this part about the willingness to follow is what will automatically lead. You don’t get there without belief or faith. It’s verse 19 that we’ll finally see the word faith used. Without faith or belief you don’t get there, but you have to have this willingness to follow, and that’s what’s going to automatically lead you to repent. Well, if you want to repent then of course you’re going to want to be baptized and have those sins washed away. And then of course, you’re going to receive the Holy Ghost and that’s going to start the next set of change.

Hank Smith: 00:27:00 Wonderful.

John Bytheway: 00:27:01 I want everything to be a process, and sometimes I’ve looked at this and I’ve thought developing faith in Christ is a process, baptism is an event, but it’s the beginning of the process of being born again. I can point to the day and date I was baptized, but the process of being born again is begun by a baptism. And now that I have the Holy Ghost, I can try to get my heart to be more willing to keep the commandments like he’s talking about here and like you’re talking about. Following the Holy Ghost is also a process, and I feel like all these things we’ve talked about are ongoing processes that require us to be patient with ourselves because nobody gets there really quickly.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:27:42 Amen to that. I would agree with you, and let’s throw in just another little element. Baptism is an event, but remember the sacrament, we’re renewing baptism. So, every single week, except for General or Stake Conference, we can renew our baptism. So, that automatically makes it both an event and a process, which is exactly the same phrase I use when I teach about being born again. It’s both an event and a process, or it’s an event and a series of events. And then to try and be funny, I throw in with my students. It’s a series of fortunate events.

John Bytheway: 00:28:13 Nice.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:28:13 For those who are familiar with Unfortunate Events. So, it is an event but it’s an event that has to be repeated again and again and again, so it’s in a process as well.

John Bytheway: 00:28:22 I remember Alma 5, he’s saying, “My brethren of the church,” which means they’ve been baptized. “Have ye been born of God?,” which means it’s possible to be baptized and perhaps not to have been born again, which I find fascinating, which tells me this is a process and are you trending upward or trending the other way during this process?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:28:42 Yeah, sometimes I feel like keeping covenants and following Christ and going to the gospel’s a little bit like a rodeo. Every time you get thrown off the horse are you going to get back on? That’s really the question. Another way we could phrase that is, every week you mess up, are you going to come back Sunday and partake of that sacrament with real intent. And say, “I’m going to try again.” And I think that’s all God is asking of us. We’re all going to fall, we’re all going to get thrown off. The very best rodeo riders always get thrown. But the question is, are you going to get up and come back to Him and try again? That’s something we can do daily and weekly.

John Bytheway: 00:29:18 And I love that it’s arranged that way. You don’t use visual aids in sacrament meeting, but I feel like the visual aid is right there at a sacrament table, and the Lord’s saying, “You’re going to need this again next week. Come back again and let’s do this again.” And I’m so glad He does that. We don’t dust off the table and put it in a storage part of the church and bring it out every Christmas and Easter, but every single week it’s, come back, let’s do this again and let’s get back on the horse again. I like the rodeo analogy. That’s really good.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:29:44 It’s a beautiful thought. The idea that he says, yeah, I’ll be here waiting for you next week. Yeah, I’m always here waiting.

Hank Smith: 00:29:49 Would it be fair to say, the Lord says,” I want you in the Celestial kingdom, but you need to be celestial.” And I say something like, “Well, how many tries do I get?” And He says, “As many as you need. Just keep coming back.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:30:02 The answer is, as long as it takes. And that’s different for each one of us. As long as it takes as many tries as it takes. But the thing that ups our game as it were, if we’re going to go with the rodeo metaphor. And I did a little bit of rodeo when I was a younger guy, so I understand this a little bit. Good luck staying on that horse if you don’t have a rope to hold onto. That broncs going to throw you in seconds. You need something to hold onto. We’re going to talk about a couple of things to hold onto. We’re going to say it’s the word of God and we’re going to end up coming to a definition of and maybe a different definition than we often have of the Word of God, but it’s going to start right here.

  00:30:35 Once you’ve been baptized, you receive the Holy Ghost. Yea, so, I’m back in verse 13. Then cometh the baptism of fire. That’s that sanctifying imagery, and of the Holy Ghost, and then can you speak with the tongue of angels. That’s a phrase that we’re going to come back to in 32, so we need to remember that. And shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. So my question that I’d really love to explore, only for a second, because we have so much to talk about, why would we start to shout praises to the Holy One of Israel when we have the tongue of angels, which apparently we have because we have the Holy Ghost with us. What is it about having the Holy Ghost with us that would cause us to shout praises to the Holy One of Israel? I don’t know exactly what the answer is.

Hank Smith: 00:31:16 Maybe it’s that the Holy Ghost can help you clearly see who the Lord really is. Show you things as they really are. And once you see the tree for what it really is, you fall down and worship him.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:31:29 I love that bringing the tree back in, because think of the joy that Lehi had when he partook of the fruit of the tree, which I think we fill to some degree when we’re sanctified by the Holy Ghost. Let’s make it clear that we’re sanctified both by Christ and the Holy Ghost, and He brings that atoning blood of Christ into our souls. I love what you said, Hank, because it makes me stop and realize that those times where I have felt forgiveness, are the times I am the most grateful for God sending His Son. When I’ve recognized that I needed forgiveness and then I felt it, that’s when I say, “Oh, thank you God. Thank God for your Son, Jesus Christ. That’s when I do want to sing praises to that. I like that. Thank you.

John Bytheway: 00:32:09 It reminds me that some have suggested that maybe the Beatitudes are a sequence. Blessed are the poor in spirit. Oh, I need help. I’m a sinner. Blessed are the meek and when you come unto Christ and then suddenly blessed are the merciful. And when you have felt His mercy as you said there, you’re a lot more merciful with others because you realize I needed that, we all need that. Then you’re a peacemaker, all those things, because you have felt that forgiveness. And that’s what I was thinking when you read that. Then you want to shout praises, because you feel that confidence that you believe Christ, not just believe in Him, you believe Him, He can forgive you. And when you feel that you want to shout praises, it changes the way you look at everybody else around you as well.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:32:54 Amen.

Hank Smith: 00:32:55 Kerry, let me read to you a couple of thoughts and then have you comment on them and how they fit into what you’re teaching us here. This is our friend, Anthony Sweat, been on the podcast before. “Often when we teach and speak about the roles of the Holy Ghost, we overlook perhaps His most important function. He’s the Comforter. Yes. Gratefully, He guides us. He testifies of eternal truth. All of those roles are very important. However, if we only teach these things, which in my experience is the most common way people discuss the Holy Ghost in church setting, I think we miss His most essential duty, to deliver the blessings of the atonement of Jesus Christ into our lives.”

  00:33:32 And then, He shares a quote from Elder Christofferson, “The gift of the Holy Ghost is the messenger of grace by which the blood of Christ is applied, to take away our sins and sanctify us.” And then, Kerry, Anthony shares a couple of quotes from President Eyring. This one, “If you have felt the influence of the Holy Ghost during this day or even this evening, you may take it as evidence that the atonement is working in your life.” On another occasion, President Eyring said, “Reception of the Holy Ghost is the cleansing agent as the Atonement purifies you.” Kerry, can you help us understand the role of the Holy Ghost in being the vehicle to the Atonement? Is that the way I might teach it?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:34:18 Yeah, absolutely. And let’s touch on it now, and then I think we’ll come back to it a few times, because… And I want to agree with this idea that there are a lot of roles that we need to focus on. Here’s a spoiler alert for some of the things that we’re going to do as we go along. We can look at several places in the Book of Mormon, where we have the doctrine. In 2 Nephi 27 it’s called the Gospel of Christ, but the doctrine or the Gospel of Christ talk to us. And we’ll see that each one ends with an emphasis on the Holy Ghost, but each one talks about a different role of the Holy Ghost. It has a different part that it’s emphasizing.

  00:34:51 That’s wonderful, because we’re going to talk a few times about how important it is to have the Holy Ghost with us or the Spirit with us, in all of these different ways. So, one of those ways is the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost, but let’s keep question in mind as it were, and keep exploring that because it’s such a crucial topic. And I think in many ways, it ends up being the emphasis. So, this shows how good a student you are of the scripture saying, it shows us that this is the emphasis of the doctrine of Christ. So, is it right if we just keep rolling with that?

Hank Smith: 00:35:22 We had a little teaser there. I’m excited to walk through it now.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:35:24 We’re going to make sure everybody listens to the whole episode now so that they can get to the end. We’re going to have a little time spent on the Holy Ghost here, and this time it’s going to be a little bit of a different emphasis, but we’re going to see this emphasis repeated a number of times. So verse 14, “But behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me.” I don’t remember him reporting this in his vision. I’m assuming that’s where it took place, and he just didn’t get around to reporting it then. But anyway, “unto me saying, ‘After ye have repented of your sins and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments…” So there’s that same doctrine that we’ve been talking about. “… by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea even with the tongue of angels and after this you should deny me, it would’ve been better for you that you had not known me.”

  00:36:11 So, we know that part. Once you have the truth, you need to act on it. You’ve left neutral ground forever. But now, look at verse 15. “And I heard a voice from the Father saying, “Yea the words of my Beloved are true and faithful.” So notice, Christ has borne witness that we need to follow the Father, and then the Father bears witness that Christ is telling the truth. And I would assume, and we’ll see this explicit in other iterations of the gospel of Christ or the doctrine of Christ, that the Holy Ghost is bearing witness of all of that the whole time. We’re getting a little preview here, we’re going to see it elsewhere. I’m going to argue that part of the doctrine of Christ is that we’re all entitled to two divine witnesses of every member of the Godhead. The Father and the Son will bear witness… Just now are bearing witness of the Holy Ghost. We just read that. The Son and the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the Father, and the Father and the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the Son.

  00:37:05 We get two divine witnesses for every member of the Godhead, and they are unified in each other and testifying of each other. I think that is part of the doctrine of Christ. And then we can throw in there, that while we need to have our will swallowed up so that we become unified like that. Which can take you back to John 17, and things we talked about last year with the need for unification, and that I explore in that book that you mentioned earlier, this idea of all of us becoming unified and connected through the Holy Ghost in Christ.

John Bytheway: 00:37:34 It’s interesting to me that the Book of Mormon, from 1 Nephi to Moroni 10, have an understanding of Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and maybe because of these prophets who wrote it. But I was looking with my class the other day in the topical guide. There’s only three references to the Father in the Old Testament, in the current King James Old Testament. And there are 85 in the New Testament. But in the Book of Mormon, Father, Son, Holy Ghost are referenced throughout.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:38:01 You’re right again, this is that coming to understand a higher understanding that they get as they leave Jerusalem. And this is going to be a key element. And I don’t know what your experience is, but as I go through the Book of Mormon with all sorts of groups, we have this interesting thing where it’s so clear that they’re three, but then we get times like with Abinadi or even read verse here and what Christ is saying, where it talks about they’re just one God.

  00:38:24 The key to understanding that is exactly what we’re looking at here. They are unified, and Christ and the Holy Ghost submit their will to the Father so that it is as if they were the Father. They’re three different beings, but in some ways they’re one. And the Book of Mormon treats them that way, and is less concerned with making these distinctions than we often are. Sometimes we’re confused as we jump back and forth between wait three, wait what? Understanding this unity that is part of the doctrine of Christ. If we understand how core it is to our doctrine that they are fully unified. Then that makes some of these other passages make more sense to us.

Hank Smith: 00:39:01 That’s going back to the Gospel of John, Kerry. “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. If you’ve heard me, you’ve heard the Father.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:39:07 In fact, I think it is the most common theme in the Gospel of John Christ testifying that he only does the Father’s will. So, if you’re accepting Him, you’re accepting the Father. If you know him, you know the Father. And he talks about that more than any other topic in the Gospel of John. And we’re seeing it here. It is the doctrine of Christ and notice what he introduced at the end of verse 15 that will be become a key element of this. “If you receive these things from my beloved and are true and faithful, he that endureth to the end the same shall be saved. And now then we get Nephi saying, and now my beloved brother and I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end in following the example of the Son of the living God. So there’s that element again, he cannot be saved. Enduring to the end, but he’s telling us exactly what we need to endure in the end and following the example, but later he is going to teach us how to do that.

  00:39:54 Then we get in verse 17, and I’m going to suggest this that we get a reiteration. He has just done the doctrine of Christ for us, and he’s going to do it again. This is typical Nephi or Isaiah fashion. If you’re going to do it, you’re going to do it twice just to make sure people have it down. That repetition and emphasis is meaningful. He says, wherefore, do the things that I’ve told you I have seen your Lord and Redeemer should do, for this is the cause they have been shown unto me.” That’s the whole reason I had this vision. It’s the whole reason I’ve seen any of this is that you know how to follow Christ and that’s what you need to do. And specifically that you might know, the gate by which you should enter for the gate by which you should enter is repentance and baptism by water. Then cometh the remission of your sins by fire and the Holy Ghost.”

  00:40:34 So, notice that he says remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost, the baptism of fire, which is the Holy Ghost. The symbolism is in baptism and washing it away. But the reality is when that atoning sacrifice is carried into your soul by the member of the Godhead that can enter into your soul and that’s the Holy Ghost.

John Bytheway: 00:40:52 Speaking of repetition, I want you to repeat that, because I talk with my students. You just said it much better than I ever did. It seems that the Holy Ghost is the cleanser more than the water is the cleanser. And we’ve talked about how baptism by water and by fire is baptism. It is both of those. What did Joseph Smith say about without the Holy Ghost, it’s half a baptism, but I want you to say that again. That was really interesting. So, the water’s the symbol, but… Go ahead.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:41:20 Yeah, so we have all that symbolism in water, having your sins washed away, burying the old person being born again as we’ve just been talking about, rising from the grave as a new person. So, all the symbolism is there, and there’s certainly a power in that priesthood ordinance, but as you just said, it’s not complete until you receive the Holy Ghost. And that is the member of the Godhead that can enter into your soul. He’s volunteered to not have a body until the very end, so that he can interact with us in a different way. And part of that is his being able to enter into us and carry that atoning power of Christ, his blood, into our souls to really purify us, purge us, sanctify us. All these different words that we use, the symbolism of fire is applied to it because of that, the ability to just change.

  00:42:05 Fire transforms the state of something. You burn wood, it changes it. You skip the liquid state and you go from the solid to the gas. It changes the state of that. That’s the symbolism of this fire. It’s going to change you. So your sins, your remission of your sins, and your change comes from the Holy Ghost. Now, I don’t want to minimize baptism, it’s absolutely crucial part of this, but it’s the beginning and the Holy Ghost is where it’s leading to.

John Bytheway: 00:42:32 I can see it both in the article of faith, baptism for the remission of sins, but in the scriptures it looks a lot more to me, I haven’t counted them up, that remission of sins comes by the Holy Ghost. Now, how is that? Is it both? And that’s how I’ve reconciled it in my mind, that it’s both. They’re together and a baptism is water and fire.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:42:54 You have to be baptized by water and fire. The Hebrew phase is shᵉnayim. Both of them. It’s just like, you have to have both for this to really work. And I think that’s exactly what we’re learning here. It’s a two-part process.

Hank Smith: 00:43:07 Kerry, just to bring in a solid witness for what you’re talking about here. Joseph Smith said, “you might as well baptize a bag of sand as a man, if not done in the view of the remission of sins and getting of the Holy Ghost. Baptism by water is but half a baptism, and is good for nothing without the other half. That is the baptism of the Holy Ghost.” That’s a good backup witness for you there.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:43:30 We’re not going to find a better witness for us. And again, we don’t want to minimize baptism. This chapter makes it clear. Baptism is 100% crucial and necessary, not sufficient but necessary. And he goes on to talk about that in verse 18, you’ve entered in by the way, and the Father has witnessed, and the Holy Ghost is witness of the Father and the Son. So, you get this bearing witness of each other again, that if you’ll fulfill that promise, then you’ll receive the Holy Ghost.

  00:43:55 Verse 19, “And now my beloved brethren, after you’ve gotten into this straight and narrow path, I would ask if all is done. Behold I say unto you, nay, for you have not come thus far save it were by the Word of Christ…” Now, we’re going to have to keep that phrase in mind. “… with unshaken faith in Him.” So, that’s where we get faith being explicitly mentioned, “Relying wholly upon the merits of Him who is mighty to save.” Recognizing you and I will never merit salvation on our own. We cannot merit it. There is one being who does merit it, and He allows us to ride His coattails as it were. Since He merits it, we can go through His merits, but it’s only through Christ. So, that absolute focus on Christ again and faith in Him.

Hank Smith: 00:44:41 Relying wholly, that’s an important word. That’s a high percentage word as John likes to say.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:46 That’s right, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:44:48 This reminds me of our discussion in 2 Nephi 25:23, about after all we can do, we have to rely on Christ’s merits wholly here. And I think only Moroni says it’s His merits that are mighty to save.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:45:01 And the way it’s presented here, that’s such an interesting paradox to so many others. But it’s not to us. I know lots of my Christian friends who I love, they will say, “Well, you say you have to be baptized. So, it’s a work that’s going to save you, when really you have to rely fully on the merits of Christ.” Well here, we have Nephi saying, you have to be baptized so that you can wholly rely on the merits of Christ. It’s part of wholly relying on the merits of Christ. It’s entering into that covenant relationship with Him, allowing Him and the Holy Ghost to change you. That is part of relying wholly on His merits. So, the fact that you’ve got baptized isn’t okay, that was really hard for you to get baptized, so you did it. So now, you deserve this. No, that’s the process by which I start to rely and invite those merits into my life.

Hank Smith: 00:45:50 We often speak of the symbolism of baptism as a death, burial and resurrection, which I think we’re right on there. Could you also say that the baptismal font can be like a womb, where a baby is immersed in water and now I’m born, born again and I get a name. Why is baptism as important, could be similar to why was my birth important? Well, it started the whole thing off. Now I belong to someone.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:46:19 That is so absolutely true. And we see that in Moses 6, where God speaking to Adam, and I assume it’s Christ, I assume it’s Jehovah there. But specifically says, You’re born physically this way, and you’re born again or born spiritually this way. And I think he ties in the similarity so that we will recognize how very real that rebirth… And he’s talking specifically about baptism receiving the Holy Ghost. But then, it’s that process that we already talked about, and that John highlighted so well. But that baptism is so literally a birth, just like our physical birth was. He emphatically makes that point there in Moses 6:59 and 60.

Hank Smith: 00:46:57 Yeah, when my kids are born, they’re in our family now. Christ is almost saying, “Look, you’re mine now. That day is important to me, because now where I go, you go, pal. You’re in my family.”

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:47:10 And that’s what he’s saying to us here, and we’ll see him talking about it that way in a few verses later, where he talks about becoming a child in that way. We better jump back into verse 20. This is one that we’ve written songs about it and all sorts of stuff. Very important. “Wherefore ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope…” I love that phrase. You can have a happy hope because of these things. “… and a love of God and of all men.” So there’s our covenant connection right there. We know baptism is how you enter the covenant, but if we wanted to make it more specific, these are the two primary commandments in the covenant. Love God and love each other, “Wherefore…” Because you have to do that, “… if ye shall press forward feasting upon the Word of Christ.”

  00:47:55 Now, we’re going to come back to that phrase in chapter 32. “And endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father, ye shall have eternal life.” He’s just given us the formula for eternal life. All these things that we’ve talked about, relying through your faith, swallowing your will up in God’s will, wholy on the merits of Christ, baptism, repentance so that you can be changed, and keep doing that in the way that we’ll specifically look at in a minute. If you could do that for your whole life, you’ll have eternal life.

  00:48:23 Now, this phrase endure to the end can be a tiring phrase, but I hope that it becomes less so as we specifically in chapter 32, he tells us the way we need to do that. As we talk about endure to the end, maybe I could just share a story. Since this happened, I’ve never been able to think of the phrase endure to the end without thinking of this particular story, if I could share it with you.

  00:48:43 And a ward I was in before the ward I’m in now, I was the high priest group leader, and my secretary was this guy. He’d been a bishop before everyone. Just this magnificent older gentleman. His name was Skip. So fun, so vivacious, so uplifting. The problem was, and I never did figure out what caused this condition, but he had a condition where his lungs were slowly failing. He was always on oxygen. He could come to church for sacrament meeting, this is back when we did three hours, with a canister, but the canister couldn’t force air into his lungs enough that he could go more than an hour, so he’d have to go home during the second hour to be on the machine that would force air into his lungs, then he could come back for the third hour. And he was slowly dying and we knew it and it was sad, but still he was serving in fantastic, amazing ways and doing all sorts of things.

  00:49:29 Well, I moved out of that ward. And when I went to Skip’s funeral, this is the story that my former bishop, now the high priest group leader, told about him. He said that he was visiting with Skip, who was still the secretary of the high priest group leadership. He was there to say, “I think you’re getting weak enough. Maybe we should relieve you of your ministering assignments.” And he said he was getting in such little oxygen that he kept falling asleep during their conversation. He’d fall asleep for a second and wake back up. That’s how weak he was, because he was getting such little oxygen. And he was there to convince him, can we relieve you of your ministering assignments? And he said, “Skip said, “Well, let me do it just one more month and then let’s talk about it again.” And then, he died two days later.

  00:50:11 I hope people don’t hear that and say, “Okay, well then I should never say no, I can’t do this.” There may be circumstances where it is time to stop, and probably for him it may have been wiser to have stopped, but you see where his heart was. He has so little oxygen he can’t stay awake, but he still wants to keep trying. That’s enduring to the end, and it’s inspiring to me.

Hank Smith: 00:50:30 Yeah. Can I keep trying? Can you let me keep trying?

John Bytheway: 00:50:34 Some of our listeners may have been asked by their friends and I have, “So, have you been saved?” And a lot of us are hesitant to answer that, because we have this endure to the end clause in our minds and we want to go, “Well, not yet. I’ve got to endure to the end up to the fourth quarter.” And I really appreciate something that President Oaks said. This was April 1995, general conference. Then Elder Dallin H. Oaks said, “I suggested the short answer to the question of whether a faithful member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been saved or born again, must be a fervent yes. Our covenant relationship with our Savior puts us in that saved or born-again condition, meant by those who ask this question.”

  00:51:22 To paraphrase Stephen Robinson. He said, “The question isn’t really am I going to make it? The question is do I want to stay?” That was just a great way to put it, that you’ve entered the gate, you’re on the path, you keep coming back to the sacrament table. You’re in that saved or born-again condition.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:51:43 That’s so important, because so often when we’re asked that question, we hear them asking our definition of it rather than what they’re actually asking, which is has Christ entered into you? Has he changed you? Are you a different person because of Christ? Yeah, the answer to that is yes, but we still have to endure to the end. But let’s talk about how we endure to the end. So, let’s let Nephi wrap this up in verse 21, and we’ve already looked at that, where he says that this is the doctrine of Christ. But note how he says again, the emphasis on Christ, “There is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the Kingdom of God, and now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ.” And the only and true doctrine, now note how even as he calls it the doctrine of Christ, he’s going to reframe it just a little bit to get that unity element that we talked about that is part of the doctrine of Christ.

  00:52:30 “This is the doctrine of Christ, and the only true doctrine of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end amen.” Now, isn’t it interesting the one ordinance we do in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost is baptism, which has been such a focal point here. That unity of the three and the witness of the three, is incredibly important. And I think Nephi thought he was done, once he’d said that. And it is, it’s a beautiful, powerful ending. I can almost picture him getting up the next morning and saying, I thought I was done, but the Spirit’s telling me I’m going to say some more, because I like to be plain. I like to make sure you get it. So, let me say some more so you can really get it.

  00:53:10 Verse 32, he reopens what the doctrine of Christ is, and we don’t have a beginning inclusio. We do have an end, but we don’t have a beginning. But I think it’s very clear because he says, well, okay, I see you’re still pondering this. I’m going to explain it more.

Hank Smith: 00:53:23 Yeah, it almost seems like, Kerry, where he says, “You’re pondering in your hearts concerning what you should do” and it’s like, oh, can I get you away from this checklist? This is what I have to do versus what do I need to be.

John Bytheway: 00:53:37 Versus 19 and 20 in the last chapter, 2 Nephi 31. Okay, after you’ve gotten in the path, now what do you do? Verse 20, press forward. And now he’s addressing it again. Okay, let me say this again. “You’ve wondered what in your hearts concerning that which you should do after you’ve entered in”, by the way in my Dad’s scriptures there’s a comma after in, and he changed the small B to a capital B. In my dad’s scriptures says, after you’ve entered in, comma, by the way.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:54:02 By the way.

John Bytheway: 00:54:05 But you can see he’s repeating that. He answered it just like you said in 19 and 20. Now let me tell you one more time, that’s exactly what he’s doing.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:54:14 But the beautiful thing is that I think he’s right. I’m so glad you added this clarification. You’re right. He’s going to teach us that it is what we have to be and what we be just leads into doing. The emphasis isn’t on the doing, it’s the being. But how do you know what to do? Well, it’s what you become, and he’s going to teach us that here. So he says verse two, “Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after you had received the Holy Ghost…” So here’s this emphasis on the Holy Ghost, “That you could speak with the tongue of angels.” So, remember he said that back in verse 13. “And now, how could you speak with the tongue of angels, save it were by the Holy Ghost.” He’s teaching us. This is what angels do. Angels have the Holy Ghost with them, the Holy Ghost, and we learned this actually in like John 14 and 16.

  00:54:56 The Holy Ghost, like Christ, only says what the Father says. So if you’re speaking with the Holy Ghost, you’re speaking what the Father would speak, angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. That’s what makes them speaking as if they’re angels. And that may help us expand our definition of angels. He says, how could you speak, save it were by the Holy Ghost. Verse three, “Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, wherefore they speak the words of Christ.” Now, this is what we need to do is figure out the words of Christ. That’s what we have to feast on. We press forward by feasting on the words of Christ, and that’s what the rod is. If we’re going to go back to his vision, the rod is the word of God or the word of Christ. You have to hold onto that. That’s what’s going to allow you to endure to the end.

  00:55:39 Now, if we were to ask most people and we said, when we hear the rod, Word of God, Word of Christ, they would say, “That’s your scriptures.” Some people would think to add in conference talks. I think that’s again true, but a subset, and we’re going to let Nephi define this for us “because they speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. They speak the word of Christ. Wherefore I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ for behold.” Now, here’s an important phrase. “The words of Christ will tell you all things.” There’s your high percentage word, John. That “will tell you all things what you should do.” Now, let’s not stop there. “Wherefore now, after I have spoken these words, if you cannot understand them, it will be because you ask not neither do you knock.”

  00:56:20 Now we’ve had a little bit of that in 2 Nephi 30, but we’ll see that in the other iterations of the gospel of Christ asking. And notice, Nephi’s vision starts because he’s asking, he’s pondering. Asking is a key part of knowing how to press forward. Prayer and asking. And you see it really emphasized here in chapter 32. “If you’re not getting it, it’s because you ask not neither do you knock.” This is one of the themes of the entire set of small plates. Nephi says you have to ask and to anyone that does ask, God will reveal it. He tells his brothers, have you asked? And they say no. He’s continually trying to show the difference between those who ask and get an answer and do something, and those who don’t ask, so they don’t do what they should do. That’s part of the theme of Nephi, and I think it’s because he understands it as part of the doctrine of Christ. If you don’t ask, you’re not going to get anything, so you will perish in the darkness.

  00:57:13 Now verse five, “Behold again, I say unto you, that if you will enter in by the way and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what you should do.” Now, what was it that just a second ago he told us would show us all things that we should do? Verse three, it’s the Word of Christ. In verse five, he says it’s the Holy Ghost. He’s equating the two. He is telling us what the Word of Christ really is. It’s whatever the Holy Ghost is teaching you. The scriptures are important, but it’s because they allow the Holy Ghost to reveal things to us. What we hear from President Nelson and the first presidency in quorum of the twelve is important, but it’s because of what they reveal to us.

  00:57:57 In fact, if you’ll let me, I’d like to read something from President Oaks. At this point, it was Elder Oaks. This is from back in 1985 when he’s fairly new in his calling. This is an article in the Ensign in January of 1985, called Scripture Reading and Revelation. This is when they’re trying to get everyone ready for a new gospel doctrine here. And I’ll just read a couple of parts from this.

  00:58:17 So, this is Elder Oaks. “What makes us different from most other Christians in the way we read and use the Bible and other scriptures, are not the ultimate source of knowledge, but what precedes the ultimate source. The ultimate knowledge comes by revelation.” If we skip down and he says, “The idea that scripture reading can lead to inspiration and revelation opens the door to the truth that a scripture is not limited to what it meant when it was written, but may also include what that scripture means to a reader today. Even more, scripture reading may also lead to current revelation on whatever else the Lord wishes to communicate to the reader at that time. We do not overstate the point when we say that the scriptures can be a Urim & Thummim to assist each of us to receive personal revelation.”

  00:59:06 Let me read the next verse, because this is where we get the inclusio. Verse six, “Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ.” So, what he’s just told us basically, verses one through five, “This is the doctrine of Christ and there will be no more doctrine given until after He shall manifest Himself unto you in the flesh. And when He shall manifest Himself unto you in the flesh, the things which He shall say unto you, shall you observe to do. And so, I find that really interesting because that’s the doctrine of Christ. Now, when Christ himself comes, maybe He’ll tell you there’s more. When He comes, He tells them the exact same thing. That’s another spoiler alert.

  00:59:34 He has ended this whole Nephi’s version of telling us the doctrine of Christ. He’s ended it by saying, “If you are going to endure to the end, you have to have the Holy Ghost with you to tell you what to do. That’s the being part. You have to be the kind of person who’s had your will swallowed up in God’s will, so that God will speak to you, you’ll listen and act on it. But you have to have that revelation. In my view, the way Nephi’s writing about it, the Word of Christ is what we learn from the Holy Ghost as we’ve studied the scriptures, as we listen to general conference, as we are listening to things in sacrament meeting, as we’re partaking of the sacrament. Whatever the Spirit is telling you, that’s the Word of God or the Word of Christ, that’s what we have to be doing to endure to the end, is following the promptings of the Spirit. Or in other words, President Nelson might put it, we have to hear Him.

John Bytheway: 01:00:31 I love that the words of Christ will tell, the Holy Ghost will show. It looks like show and tell, which is a phrase that we’ve all grown up with. I have a friend, a hero of mine, his name is Tad Derrick. Grew up in your neck of the woods in St. George, Hank. He was a mission president in Pennsylvania. He was a fighter pilot in Vietnam and he said, “I had a new pilot whose name was John, and I told him, when we come off this target, don’t forget to jink.” And to jink means to make your path erratic so that a gunner can’t just shoot into your path, because your path is all over the place. He said this wingman, John, forgot to jink, and he got his wing shot up, he caught on fire. His radio is out. He gave him hand signals, “I’ve got to eject.” So, he ejected, parachuted down into the Mekong River.

  01:01:20 Brother Derrick says, “I’m on the radio saying I need a rescue helicopter right now. I’ve got a down pilot in the water.” They said, “We don’t have a rescue anywhere nearby. We’ve got a Huey gunship 20 minutes out.” And Brother Derrick says, “Send it.” He’s circling overhead and then something that just made his heart stop. These four boats turned toward this down pilot in the water, started moving toward him and he’s like, “Oh no, they could be Vietcong, running guns up the river. They could be the enemy, they could be innocent fishermen.” He got back on the radio and called command and said, “I’ve got four boats, could be hostile, turning towards my wingman in the water. What do I do?” And they said, use your discretion.” He said, “The only thing I could think, I’ve got to pray, Heavenly Father, I don’t want to kill innocent fishermen, but I’ve got to save John. What do I do?” I needed an answer immediately, I got an answer immediately. And the answer was, “You don’t need to kill anyone, you can scare them away.”

  01:02:18 He said, “I almost, I was in a fighter, came down low at about mast high level towards the closest boat and just pulled up right next to him.” And he said, “When I looked back I said, that was awesome, Heavenly Father.” And he went back to the three other boats and they all backed off away from this wingman. And then, finally this Huey gunship shows up. The Huey gunship doesn’t have a hoist, the only way they can think this pilot gets down to water level, and his gunner. And he says, “My pilot was 6’2”, 190 pounds. This gunner is probably 5’6”, a 140.” They chose small guys on purpose to be light, and he said he got out on the skid and he grabbed this soaking wet 190 pound pilot with his elbow and threw him into the back of the helicopter. They both got medals, the chopper pilot and the gunner for rescuing this pilot.

  01:03:13 But when they got back to base, he said to him, “Don’t forget to jink,” he told him like before. But the part I loved about the story was that he needed an answer right away and God told him right away what to do. And it reminds me of a statement of Elder Bruce C. Hafen that we’ve had on the podcast. He said once, “The key to spiritual guidance is not how long you pray or what words you say, or what steps of prayer you follow. The key to spiritual guidance is one word, worthiness.” Tad Derrick was worthy and the words of Christ, the Holy Ghost showed him what to do. I always think of that story when I see these verses, and I think of my salute to Brother Derrick, that F-100 pilot in Vietnam for being ready in that moment to hear the Holy Ghost tell him what to do.

Hank Smith: 01:04:05 John, that is a fantastic story, and it brings up a great question that, Kerry, maybe you can comment on. Verse three, the words of Christ will tell you all things what you should do. Verse five, “You’ll receive the Holy Ghost. It will show unto you all things that you should do.” You equated these two. So, what is this about? John said, “Show and tell.” Do you see a difference?

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:04:30 Yes and no is what I’ll say. How’s that? shᵉnayim again, both of them. It’s going to show or tell all things that he’s making an equation here, and I think it is the Holy Ghost, but we also know that revelation doesn’t always come the same way. It will come to different people in different ways and to the same person in different ways. I personally have had some times when words have literally come to my mind. There have been a few times, and it sounds like in this story words came to mind, but I’ve also had times where I don’t know that I’m saying I’m seeing a vision, but I can see. Well, I’ve had dreams where I’ve seen some things, but sometimes it’s you can see how this is going to go or what you need to do. It’s almost like God speaks in your mind, sometimes in your heart. There are all sorts of ways that revelation could come.

  01:05:14 And that story where President Nelson is doing surgery on a heart. Yet even as he is holding that heart in his hand, he doesn’t know how he’s supposed to solve this. He didn’t want to do it, but the Spirit told him to do it and so on, and then he heard something tell him, reduce the circumference, reduce the circumference. He heard something tell him that, but he still didn’t know how to do it. Then he saw what he needed to do and the way he needed to pleat it and he followed what he saw. So, that’s an example where he was both shown and told. Sometimes it’s one, sometimes it’s the other. Revelation happens in a lot of different ways and perhaps that’s what Nephi is getting at here, but I think that we can put it another way.

  01:05:56 The Word of Christ or the Holy Ghost will communicate in several different ways, all things that you should do. We also have to be clear, sometimes He waits and sometimes he tells you, you need to work on this on your own a little bit, but sooner or later you’re going to know that what you’re doing is the right way or not, and so on. That’s part of this showing or being told all things you should do.

Hank Smith: 01:06:17 Kerry, for those who don’t know what story we’re mentioning, I’m going to read President Nelson telling this story. This is April, 2003 general conference,

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:06:27 And you can also get in his new book, Heart of the Matter.

Hank Smith: 01:06:29 Oh, okay. He says, “Many of us have had experiences with the sweet power of prayer. One of mine was shared with a stake patriarch from southern Utah. I first met him in my medical office more than 40 years ago during the early pioneering days of surgery of the heart. This saintly soul suffered much because of a failing heart. He pleaded for help thinking that his condition resulted from a damaged but repairable valve in his heart. Extensive evaluation revealed that he had two faulty valves. One could be helped surgically, the other could not. Thus, an operation was not advised. He received this news with deep disappointment. Subsequent visits ended with the same advice. Finally, in desperation, he spoke to me with considerable emotion. “Dr. Nelson, I have prayed for help and have been directed to you. The Lord will not reveal to me how to repair that second valve, but he can reveal it to you. Your mind is so prepared, if you will operate on me, the Lord will make it known to you what to do. Please perform the operation that I need and pray for the help that you need.””

  01:07:36 I’ve often told people never say that to someone, “If you will operate on me, the Lord will show you what to do.” If you have a mission companion, don’t say that to him. “His great faith” President Nelson says, “had a profound effect on me. How could I turn him away? Following a fervent prayer together, I agreed to try. In preparing for that fateful day, I prayed over and over again, but still did not know what to do for his leaking tricuspid valve. Even as the operation commenced, my assistant asked, “What are you going to do for that?” I said, “I do not know.” We began the operation.”

  01:08:13 “After relieving the obstruction of the first valve, we exposed the second valve. We found it to be intact but so badly dilated that it could no longer function as it should. While examining this valve, a message was distinctly impressed upon my mind, reduce the circumference of the ring. I announced that message to my assistant, “The valve tissue will be sufficient if we can effectively reduce the ring towards its normal size.” How? We could not apply a belt as one would use to tighten the waist of trousers. We could not squeeze with a strap as one would cinch a saddle on a horse.”

  01:08:50 “Then a picture came vividly to my mind showing how the stitches could be placed. To make a pleat here and a tuck there, to accomplish the desired objective. I still remember that mental image complete with dotted lines where sutures should be placed. The repair was completed as diagrammed in my mind. We tested the valve and found the leak to be reduced remarkably. My assistant said, “It’s a miracle.” I responded, “It’s an answer to prayer.”” What a story that ties right in. I will tell you and show you.

John Bytheway: 01:09:31 And you know what I love about this? This is not institutional revelation to a prophet. This is every individual can be directed in his life. You’re a fighter pilot. You’re a surgeon. You are a teenager. You can have help. That’s what I love about this whole idea is he’s talking to individuals.

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:09:52 It’s not just that you can have help, it’s that you must have. Nephi is telling us, there’s only one way to endure to the end, and that’s to have the Holy Ghost with you, to tell you or show you everything you need to do.

Hank Smith: 01:10:06 You’re right on there, Kerry. It says it will show you, not it might. The Holy Ghost will show you. My friend, Phil Abbott, pointed out the difference here between show and tell. I’ll tell you, it really impacted me because personally I see things in my mind moreso than I hear words. I know some people, it’s different. They hear words coming to their mind, but I can tell you, many times, and I’m grateful that Phil pointed this out to me because all of a sudden I realized I’m receiving almost constant communication from the Holy Ghost. I will be preparing lessons and I can see that lesson playing out in my mind. I’ll be thinking of ministering, and I don’t hear words go minister to this family, but I see myself walking up to their door. I realized when Phil pointed that out. It’s tell, yes. Well, sometimes it will be words, but show you might get that mental image of you following through on a prompting. I wonder if any listeners out there would think, yeah, that’s me too!

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:11:12 I’ll tell you another way that happens for me, and it may be harder for it to happen in a day where we read our scriptures on the phones. But I have a number of times had just the picture of a verse that I know in my scriptures and I can suddenly picture where it is on the page and what it’s about. And so, I know how to turn to it and find it, and this is what I need to do. I don’t know how that would work on my phone, but it works when I get these pictures of my physical scriptures. Have you had that experience? Absolutely. That’s my problem is I can’t remember the reference, but it’s in the lower of the second column in the page and sometimes it just comes to you like you can see it and sometimes I have heard, not out loud, but in my head, I’ve heard voices a couple times. Well, I guess that’s a dangerous thing to say on air, “I hear voices,” but you know what I mean. God speaks to us in a lot of ways. Yeah.