John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Robert Millett, 2 Nephi 6 through 10.

Hank Smith: 00:07 Bob, I really like what we’ve done here. We started in chapter 9. This really is the heart of these sections, chapter 9.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:17 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:17 But we know Jacob gives us this beautiful doctrinal exposé based on the Isaiah chapters, which it sounds like he was almost assigned by Nephi to read and talk about. Can we just jump back in 6, 7, and 8 and just show us where Jacob maybe had the genesis for some of these thoughts.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:41 I would add one more thing quickly before we do that, and that is also it’d be worthwhile for a person to sit down and read 2 Nephi 2 and then read 2 Nephi 9 and illustrate where Lehi shows up in chapter 9. In other words, Jacob learned a lot from his father.

Hank Smith: 00:59 He took that seriously.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 01:00 Chapter 6, I think we’ve covered much of this already. We’ve talked about gathering and scattering, which is what 6 is. Why don’t we just start in with Isaiah in chapter 7? I look at chapter 7 of 2 Nephi and notice the opening verse. “Yea, for thus saith the Lord, ‘Have I put thee away or have I cast thee off forever?’ For thus saith the Lord, ‘Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement? To whom have I put thee away or to which of my creditors have I sold you? Yeah, to whom have I sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have you sold yourselves. And for your transgressions is your mother put away’.”

  01:41 Just that verse alone is going to prep us for what’s going to come up in 9 because this is a verse about… Notice the tail end of that verse, “You’ve sold yourselves.” Well, if you’ve sold yourself, how do you get back in good graces with God? You have to be bought by somebody or purchased by somebody, or as the word we would use, redeemed by somebody. We’re learning about the doctrine of redemption early in this chapter. When people have sold themselves into sin, the only way they can get out of that mess is to have someone who’s greater than you and me and all come along and purchase them back or redeem them.

Hank Smith: 02:25 Isn’t Isaiah saying here, Bob, the Lord saying through Isaiah, “I don’t remember kicking you out. I don’t remember pushing you away. Oh yeah, now I remember. You left me.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 02:37 That’s right. That’s why I think it’s such an interesting chapter 50 here, basically verse 1, starts with a statement of the Atonement of Christ to be able to say we start with the fact of the Fall and we pronounce and we rejoice in the atoning sacrifice whereby the Savior purchases us, buys us back. That one of the definitions of being a peculiar people, yes, it can mean odd or unusual, which we are sometimes, but it also means purchased, a purchased people. That’s what that is teaching.

  03:16 And then verse 2, third line, “O, house of Israel, is my hand shortened at all that I cannot redeem or have I no power to deliver?” And throughout that chapter, you just get this same thing coming up. It’s the Lord saying to us, as you’ve indicated, “I haven’t cut you off. I really haven’t. You’ve cut yourself off and I’m perfectly happy to help you back in, but you’re going to have to surrender yourself at a certain point.” That’s what I got out of chapter 7. In other words, it begins with the Redemption of Christ.

Hank Smith: 03:52 There’s a sense of sarcasm to it, which I like from Isaiah, “But when did I kick you out? I don’t remember kicking you out.” John. I know you wrote a book. It’s called Isaiah for Airheads. It has 162 5-star ratings on Amazon. I think most of those are written by your family, but still-

John Bytheway: 04:11 161.

Hank Smith: 04:14 I feel badly, John, I’m going to go ahead and buy one now so I can give this copy away to someone. Tell me what you learned. Do you remember writing about these verses?

John Bytheway: 04:22 Oh yeah. I don’t know exactly when, if we were listening to Jacob talk, look at the very last lines of verse 18, “I, the Lord am thy Savior and thy Redeemer,” the word Bob just used, “the mighty one of Jacob. Yea, for thus saith the Lord, ‘Have I put thee away? Have I cast thee off forever?’.”

Hank Smith: 04:41 So you were back in chapter 9 there, John, right?

John Bytheway: 04:44 I was just looking at 2 Nephi 6 verse 18. I remember the part right before the last lines of 2 Nephi chapter 6 verse 18 are, “I, the Lord am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob. And then the next line as we’re reading the text, “Yea, for thus saith the Lord, ‘Have I put thee away? Have I cast thee off forever?’.” The question to summarize, “Did I leave you or did you leave me?” And then another line that I love that somebody once said, “If you feel further away from God today than you were yesterday, guess who moved?”

  05:20 My dad used to pull us over to the painting on the wall we had of Revelation 3:20 that was, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock.” My dad when I was a kid, I remember him taking us over to this painting we had in our House of Revelation 3:20, “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock.” And I love the illustration was He’s eager to be involved in your life. And if he’s not there, he didn’t move. You did. You moved away. That first verse is a great statement of, “I’m here. Where did you go? Why did you leave?”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 05:51 Yeah, that’s good. That’s really good.

John Bytheway: 05:54 And then verse 2, “When I came, there was no man. When I called, there was none to answer.” So obviously what Isaiah is saying is the lights were on, but nobody was home. “I came.” I love this symbol of, “Is my hand shortened?” Have I lost my power? To me, these particular chapters, there are some that are more difficult to understand, but I think everyone can read that and “Oh, I see what the Lord’s saying here.” Don’t you think these are a little easier to understand than most?

Hank Smith: 06:26 Oh, absolutely. After Isaiah then talks about his confidence he has in the Lord towards the end of chapter 7, he says, this is verse 10, “Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness and hath no light?” And he says, “You’re kindling your own fire. All you that kindles a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks walk in the light of your fire. And in the sparks which you have kindled, this shall you have of my hand, ye shall lie down in sorrow.” Go ahead, try to create your own light and see how that works.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 07:02 It’s the same principle President Joseph F. Smith said, earlier we mentioned they’re reading by the lamp of their own conceit.

John Bytheway: 07:11 Yeah. And I love that he uses sparks because they last only a second or two and they give off very little illumination at all. When I read this to my students, “All ye that kindle a fire” and I say, “Now this is where the Amazon got their idea for their tablet, which is called the Kindle Fire.” I don’t know if you remember that. If you refuse that God is the source of all light and truth, why would you walk in your own light, which is compared to a spark?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 07:34 What I see too in chapter 8 for example, he’s saying we need to get back to our roots here. We need to get back to fundamentals. Notice, “Hearken unto me ye that follow after righteousness. Look unto the rock from whence ye were hewn and to the hole of the pit from whence ye were digged. Look unto Abraham, your father and unto Sarah, she that bear you, for I called him alone and blessed him. For the Lord shall comfort Zion.”

  08:02 I see that “Look unto Abraham,” in light of what we’ve just been talking about, it’s as if the Lord is saying, “Don’t you remember the promise I made to Father Abraham that through him and his seed, all generations after him would be blessed? Don’t you remember that Abrahamic covenant? Don’t you remember how serious I am about saving the descendants of Abraham?” He’s continuing that same line of thinking. “Why have you left me? When will you come back? I’ve got a plan in place for you. The covenant is still in effect in your life.”

John Bytheway: 08:35 Speaking of covenants, President Nelson gave that wonderful talk to the young single adults and said, “Nothing should take the place or replace these three enduring designations, these identities. I’m a child of God, I’m a child of the covenant, and I’m a disciple of Christ.” And here we see Jacob reminding them of this by reading Isaiah. You’re a chip off the old block. You’re a child of the covenant.

Hank Smith: 08:58 That’s great, John.

John Bytheway: 08:59 That’s what it is. That’s what he’s saying. I think it’s probably where they got that phrase, a chip off the old block. It sounds like this, “Look at the rock from whence ye were hewn.”

  09:08 Hank when we had Casey Griffiths and Scott Woodward here, I think it was Scott that showed us that title page and the different audiences. And I’ve always thought, look, Jacob’s got this group. Jacob himself has never seen Jerusalem. They are removed out of the lands of their inheritance. They’re all the way on the other side of the world and they’re constantly needing to be reminded of their identity. And that was one of the audiences, the remnant, right? ” got to tell you who you are. Don’t forget we got a different area code now, but we are still Abraham’s seed. “We are children of the covenant,” as President Nelson might say it.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 09:42 I was reading chapter 8 earlier this morning. When you get to chapter 8 verse 8, “Awake, awake! Put on strength, O arm of the Lord. Awake as in the ancient days. Art thou not he that hath cut Rahab and wounded the dragon?” Et cetera, et cetera. This idea of wake up. Remember, Lehi using that same language with his sons, “Awake and be men. Arise, awake and be men and put on thy strength.” That’s a phrase that’ll be used throughout Isaiah.

  10:10 I was looking back in section 113 of the Doctrine & Covenants, which is kind of a Q&A on Isaiah verse 7, questions by Elias Higbee. “What is meant by the command in Isaiah which saith put on thy strength, O Zion?” verse 8, “He had reference to those whom God should call in the last days who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel. And to put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage also to return to that power which she had lost.”

  10:49 And then verse 9, “What are we to understand by Zion loosing herself from the bands of her neck? We’re to understand that the scattered remnants are exhorted to return to the Lord.” That’s what we’re talking about, return to the Lord from whence they have fallen, which if they do, the promise of the Lord is that he will speak to them or give them revelation. “The bands of her neck are the curses of God upon her or the remnants of Israel in their scattered condition among the Gentiles.” This constant reference to gathering Israel is basically gathering us back to Christ, gathering us back to Abraham and the covenant.

Hank Smith: 11:29 There’s an article from verse 9 on Book of Mormon Central and they quote Dan Belnap, who we’ve had on the podcast before, and he says that Jacob is using this term monster throughout chapter 9 perhaps because of what he reads in Isaiah chapter 8 verse 9, “Art thou not He that hath cut Rahab, Egypt and wounded the dragon, Pharaoh?” But this is what Dr. Belnap said, “Although the use of the term monster is rare in the Bible, the personification of death as a monstrous entity is not unique to the Book of Mormon, but found throughout the Bible. Jacob’s recited Isaiah’s use of similar imagery to depict the victory of God over Rahab, the dragon, and the Red Sea, the waters of the great deep in order to demonstrate the Lord’s power to redeem his people.”

  12:18 Later on in the article it says, “Although not uncommon in the Bible in the ancient world, what is unique about the use of imagery in the Book of Mormon is the clarity with which Jacob explained how these symbols apply to the mortal human experience. Jacob left no doubt as he spelled out the significance of the analogy by explaining that these symbols represented both the physical and spiritual deaths.” You mentioned that earlier, Bob, “two universal obstacles that each person must face and overcome on the path to eternal life. Furthermore, Jacob went on to equate the monster with the devil and with the endless torment of the wicked. Gratefully and optimistically, Jacob also described the reality of the victory of Jehovah over the monster. O, the greatness of the mercy of our God, the holy one of Israel freeing all mankind from the power of death and hell.”

  13:10 I love that connection that Dr. Belnap made. Jacob is perhaps picking up on this monster language from Isaiah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 13:18 That’s really good.

Hank Smith: 13:20 And if you continue reading, there in chapter 10 he talks about crossing the Red Sea and how the Lord made a way for the ransomed to passover. Verse 11, “The redeemed of the Lord shall return and come with singing unto Zion. And everlasting joy and holiness be upon their heads.” Verse 12, “I am he. I am he that comforted. Why do you forget me?” Verse 13, “Why do you forget me?” The guy who can part the Red Sea? “Why would you forget me?” And he tells him verse 17, to awake and awake.

  13:54 Maybe this is too simple of an analogy, Bob, but as Moses and the children of Israel reach the Red Sea, they’ve got no way across. That is a gap you can’t jump. That’s a long way across and it reminds me of perhaps what Isaiah is saying here, you cannot get back to the presence of God. You can’t do it on your own. You’re going to need a way opened up before you so you can be ransomed and pass over to the presence of God. Can I see Isaiah using that Old Testament story of Moses as a redemption story?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 14:31 Yeah, that’s a good insight.

John Bytheway: 14:32 Yeah. Hank, that same idea of, “Look, I haven’t lost my power or my hand isn’t shortened.” I’ve underlined there are three awake, awake. There are six awake words here. You mentioned, Bob, Lehi talking to his sons awake. They’re awake physically. People who are listening to words are awake physically, but it’s possible that we can be, as President Benson put it, we can be in a spiritual snooze and we have to wake up.

  15:00 In the very end of 2 Nephi 8, I love this, I love you mentioned Section 113, “Awake, awake. Put on thy strength, O Zion.” You know how clothes are sometimes equated with authority. “Put on thy beautiful garments O Jerusalem.” There’s the Elias Higbee gets his question answered. “The holy city. Henceforth, there shall no more come into the uncircumcised and the unclean”, those who haven’t made covenants.

  15:25 And then I believe verse 25 is repeated it about three times in the Book of Mormon. “Shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down O Jerusalem,” which to me sounded, “Stand up, sit down, stand up.”

Hank Smith: 15:40 “Arise and sit down.”

John Bytheway: 15:41 “Arise, sit down, O Jerusalem, loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.” If we’re thinking Assyrian captivity, if we’re thinking about the way that armies would take people captive, they’d put bands around their necks, they drag them through the dust and shake thyself from the dust. Get up off the ground where you’ve been. In fact, those old Paul Hoskisson, who I believe is your cousin, isn’t that right Hank?

Hank Smith: 16:05 Yeah. He won’t claim me, but I claim him.

John Bytheway: 16:09 I love what he said about these verses. It was so tender. He said, “The people of Israel should stand up out of the dust where they’ve been. Dust is a sign of mourning. It’s a sign of degradation. They ought to get out of the dust, out of their reason for mourning. They ought to arise. They ought to come into the house again because the Lord’s going to accept them. They ought to take a bath and put on some new clothes and sit down with the Lord and share a meal with him once more as he did previously before they deserted him.”

  16:38 When you think about armies being taken around captive literally with bands around their necks and being filthy from the dirt they’re being dragged through and you see, Shake thyself from the dust. Arise, sit down in dignity like on a throne. Loose thyself from the bands of thy neck. O, captive daughter of Zion, you’re not captive anymore, there’s some real beauty in some of those verses I think.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 17:01 You made reference earlier to how odd it sounds. “Shake thyself from the dust. Arise. Sit down.” Remember what President Nelson taught us years ago, is one of the definitions of the word reconcile is to sit down with again.

  17:18 I remember one of our children in particular we’d be talking with him about a concern or something and he’d want to get up and leave and I’d say, “Wait, wait, wait. Sit down. Sit down, let’s work this out now.” So I think it’s interesting. Arise and be reconciled. Be reconciled. Let’s come back together and sit down again and get back to that unity we once had.

John Bytheway: 17:41 And I like what Paul Hoskisson said, like to share a meal, because in the New Testament that was so much a sign of fellowship is to eat with someone and let’s talk and let’s eat.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 17:51 I remember working with a young man when I was a bishop in Florida. He had joined the church at about age 18. Wonderful young man, come from a great Christian home. He’d been a member of the church for long enough and he wanted to go on a mission and he came in and we got to talking and so forth. I asked him all the questions associated with being worthy to go on a mission. He answered them all appropriately and truly.

  18:17 After I’d done, I said, “Anything you want to say?” He said, “Yeah, Bishop, I want to say that I really want to go on this mission and I want to have God’s Spirit with me.” I said, “Great.” And he said, “So I decided to sit down and make a list of all the sins I have ever committed in my life from the time I was a little guy.” I said, “You want to make a list of that?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “What are you going to do with that list?” He said, “Well, I decided I would take the time to repent of each one of them and spend a day on each one and by my calculations I could be finished with that to go into the MTC.” My heart went out to him.

John Bytheway: 19:02 Wow.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 19:02 He was so sincere. I said, “Well, let’s talk about that a little bit.” I said, “Those past sins were all taken care of by your baptism.” He said, “Oh, that’s right.” I talked to him about the value of praying that the Lord would not only forgive your sins, but would over time remove from you sinfulness, the tendency to do things, or as the Book of Mormon language, the disposition to do things. This isn’t just a matter of discipline, it’s a change of disposition.

  19:37 The natural man or the natural woman wants to sin. The spiritual man or the spiritual woman may sin but they didn’t want to. The people of Benjamin, they say, “We have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.” And I always ask the students, “Is there any indication in the entire Book of Mormon that the people of Benjamin never sinned again?” And the answer is no. Are they not being truthful? No.

  20:08 The difference between one’s disposition, the natural man or woman wants to sin. The spiritual man or woman does not want to sin but may sin occasionally. That all has to do with the disposition. I taught that to the young man. He had a whole new way of looking at things. I said, “So yes, we need to repent of those sins we commit, but we also want to get to the point where our nature is such that’s just not something that interests us in any way anymore.”

  20:39 It reminded me, John, of your fall of man and fall of me. Yes, we need to get rid of sins, but we also need to get rid of a nature that would even want to sin.

John Bytheway: 20:51 And I feel like that is the clean hands, pure heart thing. Clean hands are cleansed from your sins, but then what happens next time I’m tempted? Well, my heart’s got to change. Elder Oaks gave an example. It’s cool that Elder Oaks would use a tree as an example, but he said, “A person who sins is like a tree that bends deeply in the time of a storm soiling its leaves with mud. And if all we do is focus on cleaning the leaves, the weakness in the tree, that allowed it to bend and soil its leaves may remain. What will happen the next time there’s a storm, the same thing, so the tree has to be strengthened.” And that’s kind of an interesting dual nature of the Atonement and even King Benjamin’s people say.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 21:34 John, I was thinking of the people of King Benjamin when you said that, and here’s the language. “O, have mercy and apply the atoning blood of Christ, that, one, we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and two, our hearts may be purified”

John Bytheway: 21:51 Protection against future sin.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 21:53 Justification and sanctification.

Hank Smith: 21:57 Bob, I think isn’t that what Jacob’s after with, “O, how great God is”? The beginning of chapter 9, “O…” We call them the Os and the woes, right John? There’s all the Os in the first-

John Bytheway: 22:09 The Os and woes chapter, yeah.

Hank Smith: 22:10 The Os and woes. And then the O, how good God is. O, wow, how bad sin is, because it takes you away from that love of God. “To be carnally minded is death,” he says in verse 39, “but to be spiritually minded is life eternal.” And then he exhorts, “O, my beloved brethren.” There’s quite a few of those. Verse 40, 41, 44, 45, “O, my beloved brethren.” And then he finishes with wherefore, verse 51, “Wherefore, do not spend money for that which is of no worth. Don’t work for that which cannot satisfy. Behold, my beloved brethren,” verse 52, “pray unto God continually by day, give thanks unto his holy name by night.” Chapter 9, Bob, and I know you love it. This is a well-thought-out, it’s a beautiful sermon walking us through the Fall, the Atonement, the awfulness of sin and then an exhortation, an invitation.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 23:06 That’s why I said Jacob is our great theologian. Jacob has put this together so powerfully. Every time I read this, interestingly I just read it about two days ago, 2 Nephi 9, I find myself saying, “Wow, how can you possibly put that together any better than Jacob did?” All those, “O, my beloved brethren, how great God is, how powerful God is, how holy God is.” Don’t you think that’s what Alma referred to when he said singing the song of redeeming love? It sounds like Jacob is singing the song of redeeming love, rejoicing in what God does for us.

Hank Smith: 23:45 With that, Bob, I know we would love to stay in 9 for another four or five hours, but we have people who are saying, “Are they ever going to get to 10?” I know you love chapter 10 too. As we were preparing for this, you said, “10, we can’t miss it.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 24:00 In chapter 10, maybe the opening verses again have to do with the scattering of Israel and gathering of Israel. Look at verse 3. “Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.” It talks about miracles in verse 4. Verse 5 talks about priestcrafts they’ll have. They’ll stiffen their necks. Verse 7, “But behold, thus saith the Lord God, when the day cometh, that they shall believe in me that I am Christ.” Now who’s he talking about? The Jews in particular. “Believe in me that I’m Christ. Then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh upon the earth unto the lands of their inheritance.”

  25:02 There’s that same pattern again and again, gather first to Christ, gather to the lands of inheritance and it shall come to pass. They shall be gathered in from their long dispersion, from the isles of the sea, from the four parts of the earth and the nations of the Gentiles shall be great in the eyes of me, saith God, “In carrying them forth to the lands,” plural, interesting, “lands of their inheritance.” Most people would say, “What would be the land of inheritance for the Jews?” Well, you’d say, “Well, the holy land, Jerusalem, Israel.” But it’s also, how about Jews that join the church in the United States of America? What’s their land of inheritance? Their land of inheritance is the congregation of their local ward, stakes of Zion.

Hank Smith: 25:45 Bob, would it be fair to say that Jacob, Nephi, and Isaiah are so interested in this gathering because they are living the scattering, I can see.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 25:58 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 25:58 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 25:59 They’re in the middle of this. And no wonder. Because after Jacob, you don’t really hear about the scattering and gathering.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 26:06 Think about your prophets of Israel, ancient prophets who wrote so much about the gathering of Israel; Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel. Each one of them has powerful things to say about the scattering and the gathering. Why? I think it’s a very good insight. They’re living in the middle of it. In case of Ezekiel, people are living in Babylon. I think it’s very real to them.

John Bytheway: 26:30 It’s kind of a different kind of scattering though for them because usually I tell my students, first you lose your testimony, then you lose your real estate. They got scattered to be preserved, Lehi and his family did. They’re scattered literally, but they’re still believing in Christ. It’s a little different kind of scattering.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 26:49 Two reasons why people are scattered. One, because of wickedness and violation of the covenants. That’s the obvious one. The second one though, the Lord wants to move people throughout the earth so that the seed of Abraham can be planted throughout the earth. The Book of Mormon, at least four or five places I can think of, says that specifically, the Lord in his wisdom takes a group of people and he moves them over. The Lehites are one of the great examples. The 10 tribes, same thing. One, because of wickedness but also in some cases, not necessarily because people are wicked, but so that the promises made to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and their posterity could come to pass.

John Bytheway: 27:30 I haven’t run this phrase through correlation, but as I’ve called it a fortunate scattering. Hank talked about the fortunate fall. I’ve called it a fortunate scattering because it spread the blessings all over the planet.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 27:41 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 27:42 People get their patriarchal blessing and go, “Oh wow, I’m House of Israel. I just got gathered. I just figured out who I am.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 27:48 Well, if scattering and gathering are indeed a type or a shadow of Fall and Atonement, then that certainly would be the case.

Hank Smith: 27:57 I remember when I was young, they used to show us that quote from President Benson that all the prophets have looked forward to our day. And I remember thinking that’s how amazing that all the prophets have looked forward to our day. And it wasn’t until I actually studied the scriptures that I realized they’re talking about the gathering of Israel. That’s what the prophets have been looking forward to, not the birth of Hank or John, although those were great events.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 28:27 Don’t you find it fascinating when I think of President Russell M. Nelson, I think of a man that has impacted the church as strongly as any president of the church in this dispensation in so many ways. But just think of what he’s done with the emphasis upon the gathering of Israel. And something as simple and yet profound as what he said, what does it mean to gather? How do you do it? Anytime we assist another person in moving toward the exaltation and eternal life, we are involved in the gathering of Israel. Well, of course, but I’d never thought of that. Had you? I always thought about we have to do some pretty formal things. He’s just saying, “No. Anytime we’re helping people move toward their possibilities, eternal possibilities, we are gathering Israel.”

  29:22 When you think of the kinds of things he has done to bring this concept of scattering and gathering to life, of course he was one of the few brethren that spoke about Israel and covenants and so forth in earlier years. He gave a major address at BYU. He gave a major address in General Conference about it. And so when he becomes president of the church, it unfolds. All of us begin to see gathering in a whole new way.

John Bytheway: 29:50 And it’s on both sides of the veil too. I love that he added that. I mean if you go to an 11-year-old and say, “You need to redeem the dead,” they don’t know what you’re talking about. But if you would say invite all to come unto Christ on both sides or unite families for eternity… I mean you guys remember the threefold mission of the church, proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, redeem the dead, President Monson added care for the poor and needy. And now the new handbook has restated it so well, it’s live, care, invite, unite. Live the gospel of Jesus Christ, care for those in need, invite all to come unto Christ, and unite families for eternity. And his emphasis on anytime you do anything that helps anyone take a step closer to making covenants on both sides of the veil, you’re gathering Israel in that. Then you can tell an 11-year-old that, “Oh, okay.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 30:44 I think that’s the other thing that President Nelson has really helped us with, the constant focus upon covenants and covenant keeping is crucial. We need to become a covenant keeping people.

John Bytheway: 30:56 I think you were the one who first awakened in me. You said there’s a sense of covenant consciousness that we don’t have enough of. And you said this decades ago and I think, “Wow, has President Nelson really helped us with covenant consciousness?’

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 31:11 Yeah, I think that’s right. The focus on the Book of Mormon from the days of President Benson through President Nelson and the focus upon covenants, the impact that’s had on the church would be hard to measure, it’s so great.

Hank Smith: 31:26 Bob, something you said earlier about how you felt about your wife and the trust that you have there. I’m looking at all of chapter 10, all the “I wills” that come from the Lord, “I will do this, I will do this, I will do this.” One thing that strengthened my confidence in the Lord through the years of study was he made a promise way back in Genesis 12. He’s still talking about it here in 2 Nephi 10:17. I will fulfill my promises. You might’ve forgotten about this promise. I have not forgotten about this promise. To know that you have someone who when they make a promise, they do not forget it, that should help us say, “I trust.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 32:12 Yes. Look over at verse 19. “Wherefore, I will consecrate this land unto thy seed, and them who shall be numbered among thy seed, forever, for the land of their inheritance; for it is a choice land, saith God unto me, above all other lands, wherefore I will have all men that dwell thereon that they shall worship me, saith God. ” Of course that’s repeated strongly in the book of Ether too. Ether chapter 2. “And now my beloved brethren, sisters, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things,” I love this, “let us remember him and lay aside our sins and not hang down our heads for we are not cast off. Nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance, but we have been led to a better land. For the Lord has made the sea our path and we are upon an isle of the sea, but great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea. Wherefore,” as it says, isles plural, “there must needs to be more than this and they’re inhabited also by our brethren.”

  33:26 Verse 22 is the one that says what I mentioned a few moments ago, “For behold the Lord God has led away people from time to time from the House of Israel according to his will.” I just think that is so moving when he says, “Let’s don’t get down on ourselves. Let’s remember the Lord, what he’s done for us. Lay aside our sins.” Even over in 23. “Therefore, cheer up your hearts and remember that you’re free to act for yourselves, to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.”

Hank Smith: 33:57 Bob, can I ask you to explain to us how Jacob ends up there? He takes Isaiah and is able to explain it in a way that at the very end he’s supposed to say, “So with all that that I’ve just explained, that’s a cheerful message.” What does he mean?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 34:16 Well, again, for people who are scattered, it’s cheerful as the gathering takes place. But I think too, I love this. Alma says something similar to Corianton back in chapter 42 of Alma, “Don’t hang your head down. Lift your head up. We’ve got reason to rejoice. We’ve got a Savior that is going out of his way in every way possible not only to save us, but to lift us and strengthen us and bring delight and joy into our lives.” I just love that language. “Let us lay aside and not hang down our heads for we’re not cast off.” That has at least two meetings, personally and nationally.

John Bytheway: 34:58 Yeah, we had sister Jan Martin here and talked about that cast off is like being out of the covenant. And when I read it that way after talking with Jan Martin, I was like, “Oh yeah, let’s not hang down our heads. We are still part of the Abrahamic covenant.” It’s like he’s saying, “Even though we’re on an isle of the sea.” But look what Isaiah said about the isles of the sea that Isaiah 49:1.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 35:21 When we see Jacob as doing a massive commentary on Isaiah, you see it with different eyes, don’t you? You can say, “Well, you don’t see a whole lot about the Atonement in Isaiah.” Well, you see an awful lot. And Jacob is just pulling apart everything he can to show that what Isaiah’s teaching is redemption in Christ.

Hank Smith: 35:42 As I read these two chapters, my children have been scared of monsters at times, right? Monsters in the closet or monsters under their bed. And I can see sin and death, they’re monsters. They take from us. The monster of death, just, in my experience, that is a terrible monster that takes those you love. And then the monster of sin has destroyed families and souls and spirits. But you think of a father coming into the bedroom and hunting down that monster and destroying it, and I think of that at verse 25. “God will raise you from death,” there’s one monster, “by the power of the resurrection.” And he’ll also go find that other monster, death. Spiritual death you call it, Bob.

John Bytheway: 36:30 The power of the Atonement.

Hank Smith: 36:31 By the power of the Atonement.

John Bytheway: 36:33 Beautiful.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 36:34 Those last two verses, the concept of grace. Let’s read it again. Verse 24, “Reconcile yourselves to the will of God and not to the will of the devil.” What does it mean to reconcile yourself to God? We can’t reconcile ourselves, can we?

  36:49 I was just thinking. I turned over to Jacob chapter 4, found myself looking at verse 11. “Wherefore beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the Atonement of Christ the only-begotten son.” That is, apply the atoning sacrifice of Christ, apply the atoning blood of Christ. That’s how we reconcile ourselves to the will of God. We can’t reconcile ourselves, but we put ourselves in a position to be reconciled by him. And then of course after you have reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that you’re saved. As we all know back way ahead in chapter 25, Nephi is going to pound that doctrine that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do.” Meaning, above and beyond all we can do, notwithstanding all we can do, maybe even in spite of all we can do. It certainly doesn’t mean God can’t help us until we’ve done all we can do because frankly who do you know that’s done all they can do other than Jesus? No. It’s above and beyond everything you can do. It’s by the grace of God that you’re saved.

John Bytheway: 37:57 Like Hank said, that somebody that went and descended below us to rescue us like that baby Jessica story.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 38:05 Yeah, that’s great.

John Bytheway: 38:07 Yeah. Descended below all things so that he could lift us up.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 38:13 There’s some fascinating language in 25. “Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, meaning physical death, and also from everlasting death, meaning spiritual death by the power of the Atonement that you may be received into the eternal kingdom of God,” I love this, “that you may praise him through grace divine. It’s a beautiful expression, isn’t it? Praising him through grace divine.”

Hank Smith: 38:40 You can tell Jacob has a different language than Nephi. They have different vocabularies, yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 38:47 That’s why I’ve said I think Nephi is powerful, but I see Jacob is the great theologian here. As far as somebody, he reminds me a bit of Paul, the systematic nature in which he undertakes all of this beginning with Isaiah and in chapter 9, weaves in Atonement, scattering of Israel and Atonement and ends as it were here in chapter 10 with Atonement and grace of God and praising him through grace divine.

Hank Smith: 39:14 Man, that’s quite a feat in itself. Take Isaiah, turn it into a grand lesson on the Atonement. You’ve got it right here, 2 Nephi 6 through 10.

John Bytheway: 39:22 One of the phrases I’ve noticed because of something Hugh Nibley said is how often, it’s not every time, but how often it’s called the power of the resurrection. He said, “Without the Atonement, the good old second law of thermal dynamics takes over or entropy.” And all my students who’s taking physical science, “Yeah.” And all these bodies that are dying that are the only way that that can be put back is through power. Hugh Nibley commented, “Jacob uses the phrase power of resurrection because the only way entropy is overcome is through power. And Jacob’s very consistent with that.” I thought. I’ve never noticed it, but Hugh Nibley did.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 40:03 That man did have a thought here and there, didn’t he?

John Bytheway: 40:05 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 40:08 Yeah, he did okay. There’s a great thought out of the manual. Bob, right when you started you talked about the adjective infinite and the manual says, “What could you do better to understand Jesus Christ’s infinite atonement?” Perhaps you could look at things that seem infinite in number, blades of grass, grains of sand on a beach, stars in the sky. How is the Savior’s Atonement infinite? How is it personal. And then what phrases in 2 Nephi 9 help you feel grateful for what the Savior did for you? You’re right, this is a systematic argument for drawing close to the Atonement using the Atonement. As soon as you understand the Fall, the two deaths, the two monsters, he invites you to partake of, what does he call it? Delight in the… Where’s that great phrase? The fatness. There it is, feast.

John Bytheway: 41:00 “Let your soul delight in fatness.” It’s the Book of Mormon Diet plan.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 41:05 I have a lot to rejoice about.

Hank Smith: 41:11 Bob, is there anything-

John Bytheway: 41:12 Yeah, I always tell my students, “Put that one on your fridge. Let your soul delight in fatness.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 41:17 I was thinking section 76 where Joseph and Sidney bear testimony “that by him and through him and of him the worlds are and were created and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” I was thinking of the poetic version of this that the prophet and William W. Phelps put together where the prophet says, “And I heard a great voice bearing record from heaven. He’s the Savior and only-begotten of God, that by him and through him and of him the worlds were all formed. Even all that careen and the heaven so broad whose inhabitants two from the first to the last are saved by the very same Savior as ours and are of course God’s daughters and sons by the very same truths and the very same powers.” The infinite scope of the Savior’s Atonement. If he created worlds without end, which he did, he redeems worlds without end.

Hank Smith: 42:15 Dr. Millet, this has been fantastic today, and I knew it would be. You’re a doctrinal master. You have been in my life for decades. This was an absolute treat. Before we let you go, tell us what you think of the Book of Mormon. If someone were just to say, “Bob, tell me how you feel. What has the Book of Mormon done for you?”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 42:36 I love the New Testament. I love the gospels. I love all the way through. I even love Revelation. I delight in reading the New Testament. But the Book of Mormon has a spirit all its own. In 31 years of teaching at BYU and in 10 years of teaching in seminaries and institutes, I saw more eyes open. I saw more hearts touched. I saw more lives changed as young people just came alive to the Book of Mormon. As I said, it has a spirit all its own.

  43:12 One other thing if you don’t mind, I was not, from the beginning, a lover of the Book of Mormon. I had not read the Book of Mormon when I went on a mission. I read it twice on a mission because we were supposed to. I had a testimony of it because I had a testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet. I went on a mission and on the mission, my mission president was a lover of the Doctrine and Covenants. He had put together a major study guide on the Doctrine and Covenants, which was wonderful. I just became a lover of the Doctrine and Covenants. And when I came to BYU, the first class I took was Doctrine and Covenants, loved it. Then I took Pearl of Great Price.

  43:53 When it was about time to graduate, I somehow found out you had to have Book of Mormon classes too, and I have to have them. I took them, I had both of them, 121 and 122 Religion. They were good. I thought that’s fine. And when I went into church education even. For some weird reason, I had never taught the Book of Mormon in those early years. I don’t know how I missed it, but I never taught the Book of Mormon.

  44:21 It wasn’t until I got to BYU and the first semester there I was assigned seven classes of Book of Mormon. But when you have that many classes, you can’t really remember from one class to the next what you said and what you didn’t say. I dove in and within a period of just a few weeks, I fell in love with the characters of the Book of Mormon. I fell in love with the story. I fell in love with the fact that these, and the testimony began to build strongly in my heart, that these are real people. These are people who have problems like we do. These are people whose problems are solved just like ours are solved by the Savior. I had a strong testimony of the story. And then time passed and I began to read and study the Book of Mormon even more, and I began to realize how significant the doctrine within the Book of Mormon was.

  45:15 And my whole approach changed. I shifted in my classes toward focusing on the great doctrine of the Book of Mormon. I remember hearing as a young missionary in the mission home when the general authorities would teach us Elder McConkie saying, “We go to the Book of Mormon for our doctrine.” And I remember thinking, “Really? Don’t we go to the Doctrine & Covenants for our doctrine?” I began appreciating great doctrine that’s found in the Book of Mormon, and I thought maybe I’ve arrived in my studies.

  45:47 But lo and behold, a few years later, I found myself moving. I still believe strongly in the story. It was an amazing thing. Those are all real people. I had great love for the doctrine. And it began to dawn on me that there was a third stage I was moving into, and that was I began to sense the importance of a personal engagement with the Book of Mormon. That is to say, I remember reading 2 Nephi 31, and I remember thinking, “Nephi is talking to me.” I don’t know what else to call it except personal engagement.

  46:29 I began realizing the Book of Mormon wasn’t just something to be read. It wasn’t just something to be studied, but that the Book of Mormon was something to be lived. Does that make any sense at all? That is to say, we study the book, we learn all we can, we gain great understanding of doctrine, we know that the story took place, but when we begin to feel ourselves being preached to by these people and that they’re talking to me and it isn’t just that I’ve now come to understand better the doctrine of the Fall, I know that I need to repent of my sins through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. And I feel that personally.

  47:13 In other words, when the book began to impact me personally, my personal life, it is not just a book of theology. It is not just a book about religion. And here’s my point, it is religion. I don’t know any other way than saying the Book of Mormon has been absolutely and continues to be absolutely transformative to my soul. It doesn’t just answer doctrinal questions, which it does wonderfully. It changes my life each time I read it. And each time we come to the Book of Mormon, for example, we’re a different person. We have different challenges. We have different issues in our life. We have different questions. It is if I’ve come to it anew every time. I thank God for the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith: 48:07 What a fantastic day. It was good for us to be here.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 48:11 It was.

Hank Smith: 48:12 We want to thank Dr. Robert Millet for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. We always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have Isaiah Chapters, a lot of them coming up on followHIM.