Hank Smith: 00:00:04 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. We are excited to continue our study of the Book of Mormon. My name’s Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host who I will describe as joyous to the soul, John Bytheway. Welcome, John. Do you feel like you’re joyous to the soul? I feel like you are.

John Bytheway: 00:00:22 I have moments like that. I have other moments, but sometimes I have those moments. Where I’m not so joyous to the soul. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:00:27 I’ll ask your children what they think of that.

John Bytheway: 00:00:30 Yeah, right.

Hank Smith: 00:00:32 John, we’re continuing our discussion in First Nephi. We were with Dr. Strathearn last week, showed us some incredible things with Lehi’s Dream and the connection with First Nephi 10. What are you looking forward to today? Have you been thinking about what we’ve learned?

John Bytheway: 00:00:47 What I love is that Nephi wants to see what his father saw and instead of the angel repeating the same thing, he gives him a triple dose. He brings in another television and shows him things on two screens.

Hank Smith: 00:00:58 Yeah, we get an extended version. We get Lehi’s Dream, but we get to see things we didn’t see the first time around.

John Bytheway: 00:01:04 We see the life of Christ interspersed with the dream and it’s really cool how they do it.

Hank Smith: 00:01:09 Yeah, I’ve told my students before, the tree stands up, has arms and legs and starts healing people. John, we are joined by a good friend of both of ours, an incredible Bible scholar. His name is Dr. Josh Sears. Josh, what are we looking forward to today as we look at Nephi’s experience?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:01:27 I’m excited because on the title page of the Book of Mormon that Moroni wrote to introduce the whole thing, Moroni explains that there’s two purposes for the Book of Mormon and I think in Nephi’s vision, you see both of those purposes really playing out. Number one is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers and that they may know the covenants of the Lord that they are not cast off forever. Number two, to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile, that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God manifesting himself unto all nations. The Book of Mormon as a whole does this, but Nephi’s vision sure going to really zero in on those two things. We’re going to have fun seeing how the Book of Mormon fulfills what it’s set out to do.

Hank Smith: 00:02:10 Fantastic. Josh, I’m looking forward to this because here’s a book I’ve read many times and yet, every time I go through, I see something new, especially when I have someone who’s also read it many times. They can show me things that I’ve never seen before. This year, going through the Book of Mormon, I just am getting more and more excited for each lesson because the book seems to change with me as I grow older. The book seems to adapt to my situation. John, Josh is not new to our podcast. I’m sure many of our listeners remember his awesome episodes in the past, but let’s do a quick introduction.

John Bytheway: 00:02:45 Yes. We’re so happy to have Dr. Joshua Sears back. He’s an assistant professor of ancient scripture at BYU. He received a PhD in the Hebrew Bible from the University of Texas at Austin. His wife, Alice, is from Hong Kong and plays in the bells at Temple Square. They live in Lindon with their five children. I was very excited to have Joshua back again because I remember what we did before and I’m thinking, okay, I’ve got my pencil sharpened. I’m ready for action.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:03:12 Well, it’s great to be back. Thanks.

Hank Smith: 00:03:14 Josh, we love having you and John, when I think of Josh, I just think someone that brilliant should not be that humble. It’s not fair. It shouldn’t work that way because I’m not that brilliant and I’m not that humble and that just goes to … I’m going the wrong direction in both of those. Yeah, it’s going to be exciting to have Josh with us. I have to read, John, from his Old Testament lessons. We put together a compilation. It’s called Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. You can get it absolutely free on our website and these two lessons, John, Josh was with us for our opening lesson in Genesis. It was a life changer for me. Josh showed us things about the creation I had never seen before and then he came back and he did a section of scripture that I’m sure many of our listeners, including me and you, John, hadn’t really taken time to read through, 2 Kings 17. That doesn’t usually ring wow to me, but Josh took it and made it unbelievable.

  00:04:15 I would encourage any of our listeners who are looking to have an incredible experience, go back and find these two episodes either on YouTube or just use your app and go back and listen to these. I want to read to you two thoughts out of the many that are in this book from Josh’s episode on 2 Kings. Hezekiah is a reminder that if you’ve got a human leader, as good as they might be, they’re going to eventually disappoint you. If you look hard enough or wait long enough, whether it is Joseph Smith or your bishop or somebody, they will disappoint you. They’re not perfect, but the Savior, of course, is going to do everything that they can do, but perfectly, and we can trust him not to stumble and let us down. Then, as Josh was talking about Hezekiah and the struggle he was going through, the pressures he was under, and I really felt that with Josh. Here’s what Josh said.

  00:05:09 He said, “God has a long game. He is not making promises to these people and then everything is going to be ruined. In fact, even though they are wicked and have some major setbacks and all sorts of destruction and calamity, they can’t ultimately thwart God’s plans. He is always going to find a way to use Israel to accomplish his purposes, no matter how bad they blow it along the way. The theological takeaway here is that God is still in charge. He is moving the chessboard in ways that we can’t comprehend and with the sight that goes beyond what we can see and he is going to make everything turn out the way it is supposed to be.” Again, John, I know I’m gushing here a little bit, but if you want to have an incredible experience, go look up these two episodes in the Old Testament. They were really life changers.

John Bytheway: 00:05:55 Absolutely. That’s another reason I was just looking forward to this. After our first few episodes in the Book of Mormon, Hank, I thought, “I think I know this book,” and now I’m like, “Oh, okay. I got a lot to learn.”

Hank Smith: 00:06:07 Yeah, I’ve only read this book for what, 35 years, and people are showing me things I’ve never seen before. We can’t feel embarrassed, John. We just have to be good students. Here’s what the Come, Follow Me manual says. It says, “When God has a monumental work for his prophets to do, he often gives that prophet a monumental vision. Moses, John, Lehi, Joseph Smith all had visions like that, visions that expanded their minds and helped them see just how grand and awe-inspiring God’s work really is.” Nephi also had one of these life changing visions. Josh, with that, how are we going to jump into these chapters?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:06:42 There’s a lot in these visions. We’re going to have to take this step by step. In chapter 11 as the vision begins, this is where Nephi is learning about Jesus Christ and where we see most this purpose from the Book of Mormon is to convince us that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God manifesting himself to all nations. What we want to see in this vision is how Nephi learns, what does it mean that he’s the Christ? What does it mean he’s the Eternal God and how does he manifest himself? Of course, the vision doesn’t just come out of nowhere. It’s not just giving Nephi a random history lesson. It follows everything that’s been happening in the first 10 chapters of the Book of Mormon, the questions that Nephi has been having, the conversations in the family, the struggles that they’re having, so to better appreciate what he’s learning about Jesus, I want to really quickly look at a few verses from chapters one to 10. We can follow this thread of what has Nephi been learning about the Messiah already to prepare him for the vision?

Hank Smith: 00:07:37 Wonderful. Let’s do it.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:07:38 First Nephi, chapter one has Lehi, and it’s the first time we get this term, Messiah. Chapter one, verse 19 says that Lehi testified the things which he read in the book manifested plainly of the coming of a Messiah and also the redemption of the world. The thing I want to point out here that might sound a little strange to us at first is he doesn’t say, “The Messiah.” He says, “A Messiah.” The reason for that, you got to get back into their ancient Israelite, Old Testament kind of setting. They’re in Old Testament Jerusalem right now. I think the reason Lehi is very deliberately saying, “A Messiah,” is because at this point in history, there’s no concept of one single Messiah. There’s lots of Messiahs. We learned this back in the Old Testament here, that Messiah comes from a Hebrew word mashiach and it means, anointed one, literally someone who’s had oil poured on their head to anoint them for some special task or mission and giving them divine power and authority.

  00:08:39 In Old Testament times, there was lots of people that this happened to. Priests are anointed, they are Messiahs. The kings of Israel are referred to as Messiahs because they are anointed, they’re set apart to be God’s leaders for the people. You don’t usually see this in translation, but, for example, in the story of where David and Saul are chasing each other around and David has the opportunity to kill Saul, but he doesn’t do it, he says, “I don’t want to lift up my hand,” and the King James version says, “The Lord’s anointed,” but the Hebrew there is the Lord’s Messiah. He’s saying the God commissioned this guy, so God’s got to have to take him out. I don’t want to do that. There’s lots of Messiahs there, and most often when we see references to Messiah in the Old Testament, it’s to the King of Judah or Israel there. They’re the ones.

  00:09:25 If you are in Nephi’s Jerusalem and stop someone on the street and said, “Excuse me, sir, can you direct me where I might find the Messiah,” they’d probably point up to the palace and say, “He’s up there.” Lehi is recognizing that there’s more than one Messiah, even while he’s around right there. That’s why he’s got to say, “A Messiah.” He’s talking about a certain person, but he’s using a title that they’re familiar with from elsewhere. Now, what happens in the rest of Old Testament and New Testament history is Babylon destroys the kingdom of Judah. They lose the kingship. There’s no longer a king ruling over them from the line of David. You don’t have that kind of a Messiah anymore and they start to talk about, wow, it’d be great if a descendant of David one day returns, takes the throne and rules over Israel again.

  00:10:09 Over time, they start referring to this future king as not just a Messiah but the Messiah. The Messiah of Messiahs, the ultimate Messiah who’s going to come, take the throne and just set everything right. By the time you get to Jesus showing up in the New Testament, they do have this idea of the Messiah as a specific single individual that they’re looking forward to coming. What we can see in the Book of Mormon is they go through that same kind of development, but a lot faster. Here in one Nephi chapter one, Lehi starts a Messiah, and then now let’s jump to chapter 10, where Lehi’s going to talk about him again. Chapter 10 verse four. He says, “600 years from the time that my father left Jerusalem, a prophet would the Lord God raise up among the Jews even a Messiah,” or in other words, a savior of the world we’re still saying a Messiah.

  00:10:59 Then, in verse five, he refers to this Messiah, meaning of all the Messiahs out there, I’m now talking about this one who’s going to come in 600 years and then in verse seven he talks about the Messiah and from then on, the rest of the Book of Mormon, it’s just the Messiah. Within a few verses, Lehi transitions from a Messiah to the Messiah because he’s established now we’re talking about this guy, this human king from the line of David who’s going to come and do these amazing things. Then, just by way of review, he talks about how this Messiah is going to be a redeemer, how he’s going to get baptized and he’s going to take away the sin of the world. He has this overview of what this figure is going to do. Nephi has this basic understanding before he moves on into the vision.

Hank Smith: 00:11:48 Wow, that’s fantastic. There was multiple Messiahs because it means anointed, like a king. A king was anointed, so that could be a Messiah, but then over time, they start to recognize that there’s going to be the Messiah.

John Bytheway: 00:12:04 Reminds me of Isaiah a little bit king of kings and Lord of Lords. There’s Messiahs, but this is the Messiah of the Messiahs.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:12:12 Yeah. Chapter 11 opens “For it came to pass after I desired to know the things that my father had seen and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me. As I sat pondering in my heart, I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yay into an exceedingly high mountain and thus begins this vision.” I want to jump ahead a little bit and let’s look at where Nephi starts learning about Jesus Christ here. Verse 13, “It came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem and also other cities and I beheld the city of Nazareth and in the city of Nazareth, I beheld a virgin and she was exceedingly fair and white, and it came to pass that I saw the heavens open and an angel came down and stood before me and he said unto me, “Nephi, what beholdest thou?” I said unto him, “A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.” He said unto me, “Knowest thou the condescension of God.”” That’s the really interesting question that’s going to kick off Nephi’s important lesson here. We know that the word condescension here means to go from a higher kind of place down to a lower kind of place, and this is going to be Nephi’s lesson about how Jesus is going to go from ruling up in heaven to coming down and becoming a human being here on earth. The angel asked the question, “Nephi, do you understand this?” and Nephi’s response in verse 17 is, “I know that he loveth his children. Nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things,” and first, I love his response there that when we face things that we don’t understand or things that don’t make sense, it’s okay to acknowledge that, but we can acknowledge and in fact, lead with what we do know.

  00:13:55 What Nephi does say he knows is that God loves his children. That’s helped me a lot when there’s things I can’t make sense of, that don’t seem to fit with the way things are supposed to work. I’ll go back to that to say, “I know that Heavenly Father loves us as his children and therefore, somehow, this is going to make sense even if I don’t get it right now.”

Hank Smith: 00:14:14 Josh, we had a lesson a couple of weeks ago with Dr. Nick Frederick in the Book of Revelation and in chapter five of Revelation, John looks for a lion. Someone tells him, “The lion is going to open the book,” and he’s looking for a lion, but when he turns and looks, he sees a lamb. Dr. Frederick brought us to this verse, “Knowest thou the condescension of God?” this wonderful idea that the Savior is going to go from this to this and this dramatic condescension is bigger than when I hear the angel say, “Knowest thou the condescension of God,” I almost hear him say, “Do you have any idea who that is? Are you wrapping your mind around what he gave up, what he was to what he became?”

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:14:59 Yeah, and let’s explore this a little bit more. The angel says, “Do you know the condescension of God?” Nephi’s not sure about that. When we have to ask, “What does the angel mean by God,” how is Nephi interpreting that term? We got to remember again, Nephi is an ancient Israelite living smack dab in the middle of the times of the Old Testament. For him, God is Jehovah, the God of Israel, the one who covenanted with Moses on Mount Sinai, the one that was speaking through the prophet Isaiah, the one that led them through the Exodus. That’s Jehovah, the God of Israel. When Nephi hears God, he’s going to be thinking Jehovah. We’ve got to keep in mind that in Old Testament times, most of the Israelites aren’t thinking of the Godhead in the way that we do today in a post New Testament world. They’re not thinking of Heavenly Father and his son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They just refer to Jehovah.

  00:15:52 When the angel says, “Do you know the condescension of God,” Nephi’s thinking Jehovah, and Nephi says, “No. What are you talking about?” In verse 18, the angel says, ” Behold the virgin whom thou sees is the mother of the Son of God after the manner of the flesh,” and to really appreciate what Nephi is trying to grasp here, I’m going to point out that the way Joseph Smith originally translated this verse and the way it was published in the first edition of the Book of Mormon in 1830 is a little different from the way it reads in our Book of Mormon today. The reason is that there’s a few verses here in this chapter where in the 1837 edition, the second edition, Joseph Smith went through and changed the wording slightly. I think the reason Joseph did that is because he was trying to avoid confusion for us as modern readers because the way ancient Israelites talked about God uses different vocabulary than the way modern Christians talk about God.

  00:16:48 I suspect Joseph was concerned that we would misunderstand the roles of the God here if we’re using Nephi’s ancient Israelite vocabulary, so he exercised his prophetic prerogative to adjust the text to make sure there’s no misunderstanding on our part. It can be helpful to know what it originally said because that can help us appreciate from Nephi’s point of view what it was that he was learning in his context. There’s not like one of the versions is wrong and one is right. I think the original one makes sense of Nephi’s point of view, and what Joseph Smith changed it to is appropriate for helping us understand from our point of view.

  00:17:22 In verse 18, what Joseph changed was he added the three words, “The son of,”. Originally, what the angel said to Nephi was, “The virgin whom thou sees is the mother of God after the manner of the flesh.” There’s similar changes in verse 21. The angel says, “Behold the lamb of God,” and today, it says, “The son of the Eternal Father.” Originally, it just says, “Even the Eternal father.” It’s worth noting that in the Old Testament times, father was a title for Jehovah, like in Isaiah 63:16 or 64, verse eight. Also, in verse 32,

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:18:00 The angel says that the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world. Originally that’s just the everlasting God was judged of the world. That’s also everlasting God is a title for Jehovah in the Old Testament like in Genesis 21:33 or Isaiah 40:28. And then the final thing that Joseph changed was in chapter 13:40 which says that the Lamb of God is, and today it says the Son of the Eternal Father, but originally it read the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father. Throughout this, the angels using Old Testament titles for Jehovah that Nephi would’ve been familiar with. And what he’s trying to communicate is this. He says, “Do you know about the condescension of Jehovah?” And Nephi says, “No. What are we talking about?” And then the angel says, “The virgin whom thou seest is the mother of Jehovah after the manner of the flesh.” In other words, she is Jehovah’s human mother. And I think at this point Nephi’s brain is just about exploding.

Hank Smith: 00:19:00 Josh, what I’m gathering here, Nephi would not at this time in Israelite history have an idea that God has a Son that’s going to come, that the Messiah would be the Son of God.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:19:13 Yeah, that’s not a concept. And I think that’s something important that this vision is showing right here. Nephi’s learning this information for the first time. That means that he didn’t pick this up from his culture, his version of Sunday school. He never picked up this idea that Jehovah is going to condescend and become a human or anything like that. It also suggests he didn’t learn this from his own dad, a prophet. Lehi didn’t tell him this, and I don’t know. I’ve wondered, did Lehi not understand this himself and he learns it from his own son after the vision, or did Lehi know this but it seemed so mind-blowing that he kind of kept it close and private, didn’t feel like he could share this with his sons yet until Nephi got the revelation for himself and then they speak about this more openly. I don’t know, but we don’t see Lehi talking like this before the vision. We do see him after the visions.

  00:20:02 I don’t know which of those scenarios is correct, but at least we can tell for Nephi, he seems to be getting his mind blown as he learns about this for the first time. He learns, “Okay, Jehovah is going to condescend and become a human being. He’s got a human mother. He’s going to live a human life.” It’s interesting. He says, “I want to know what the tree means.” Then he sees the virgin, he learns about the condescension of God. And then in verse 20, he sees the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. Verse 21, the angel says, “Behold, the Lamb of God, yea, even”, in the original, “the Eternal Father.” And then he says, “Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?” which was Nephi’s original question. And in verse 22, Nephi says, yep, I do now. “It’s the love of God.”

  00:20:48 And what’s interesting to me is Nephi already knew about Jehovah. He already knew that God loves his children. It’s one of the things he says he does know. But somehow understanding that Jehovah’s going to become human now is helping him appreciate the love of God in a way he never has before. “The love of God,” he says, “which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men, wherefore it is the most desirable above all things.” Which is kind of an echo of what the fruit was like back in the tree, right? But the idea that God is not just helping you from afar but is coming down to earth to live like us and experience what we experience, to walk among us, to be hungry, to be thirsty. I think Nephi is recognizing that is the biggest manifestation of love I could think of from my God, to come be here with me.

Hank Smith: 00:21:40 So this idea that we’re used to of Jesus coming to earth, he’s not so used to.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:21:46 Yeah. And we should notice now that as the angel keeps talking, he’s using phrases like Lamb of God, which Nephi had already heard before back in chapter 10 when Lehi was talking about the Messiah. Nephi is just having an incredible lesson from revelation, and this is probably forcing him to rethink a lot of how he thinks about God and the plan of salvation and everything. This is just changing his fundamentals in an amazing new way that opens him up to all these new possibilities.

Hank Smith: 00:22:13 Yeah, that’s fantastic, seeing this happen for the first time, awe-inspiring to Nephi.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:22:19 So we should pause and note here that as Nephi has been learning about this, this is again where we see the title page of the Book of Mormon fulfilling its promise to us. The title page says that the Book of Mormon is supposed to convince Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ. Christ is your Greek term for Anointed One, so it’s the equivalent of Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah. He’s that human king from the line of David who’s going to come and be born and do all those things. And it says, “Jesus is also the Eternal God,” which again is a title for Jehovah, like in Deuteronomy 33:27 you see that. One way you can reinterpret the title page here saying Jesus is the Christ, he’s the Messiah, and also he is the eternal God. He is Jehovah. He’s both of them in one. He’s both figures.

  00:23:06 The Book of Mormon is kind of making this case that Jehovah, the God of Israel, and Jesus the human Messiah are the same persons. You see that ground laid for that here in Nephi’s vision, and they’re going to continue to discuss this for the rest of the Book of Mormon.

  00:23:21 Then the rest of chapter 11 of 1st Nephi, just Nephi sees kind of a summary of his mortal ministry. It says that he goes forth among the children of men, that he’s baptized. This is elaborating on what Lehi had already told Nephi about him getting baptized. That he ministers to the people, that he heals them, that he’s eventually taken and judged of the world, and that he’s lifted up on the cross and slain for the sins of the world. So we get this kind of panoramic overview of Jesus’s life there. It doesn’t conclude with his resurrection, which is really interesting. We’ll get the resurrected Jesus in the next chapter when he visits the Nephites. Jesus’s story here is kind of framed as part of a larger story. It’s not like he dies on the cross and we’ve reached the climax and we’re done now. This is the setup for the longer covenant story of how God’s going to redeem his covenant people. And of course the Messiah is central to making that happen.

Hank Smith: 00:24:13 Excellent. So chapter 11 breaks new ground for Nephi. That’s a fun way to look at it. I wanted to take a look at a connection with Lehi’s dream and see what you both think about it. Right at the end of 1st Nephi 8:30, there’s this group of people who are making their way towards the tree, and when they get to the tree, they fall down. And I remember being taught as a kid, or maybe I just thought this, that living the gospel is so hard. It’s so difficult that when you get to the end, you’re just exhausted. You have endured to the end. Maybe there’s something from that lesson there, but what do you think of these people falling down and partake of the fruit of the tree?

  00:24:56 And then chapter 11, as Nephi is seeing the life of Christ in verse 24, he says, “I saw the Son of God going forth among the children of men, and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.” Josh, John, is there a connection there that the tree that Lehi saw is the Lord and there’s people get to him and they truly know who he is when they get to the tree or they get to the Messiah and they fall down. Not because they’re exhausted from living the gospel, but they know who that is. What do you think?

John Bytheway: 00:25:34 I’ve always loved the idea that that was worship, that Christ is the tree and they fell down at the tree. That was God so loved the world He gave his Son and the love of God was the fruit. So I think both of those work, but I don’t necessarily think the gospel is so exhausting.

Hank Smith: 00:25:52 So hard to live.

John Bytheway: 00:25:54 Yeah, it should bring us some joy and some sweet is the work type of feelings as well.

Hank Smith: 00:25:59 Right. Am I in safe ground to say the tree is the Lord and the fruit is the love of God, which Josh connected in verse 22 there. When Nephi sees the Lord he says, “It’s the love of God that is most desirous to the soul” and that’s the connection to the fruit.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:26:19 And that love is manifested most obviously by Jehovah coming down to earth as Jesus Christ and sacrificing his life. You can’t get a better representation of the love of God than that act right there.

Hank Smith: 00:26:32 Is it possible then that Nephi and Lehi saw similar things, but describe it differently? Maybe Lehi sees the life of the Lord and describes him as a tree and Nephi sees the life of the Lord and gives us in more literal terms? As you go through Nephi’s vision, you can start to see elements of the mists of darkness, the great and spacious building, the great and abominable church. Do you feel like, Josh, they saw similar things or should I take this as no, these are two totally different visions?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:27:02 Well, it seems pretty clear that the imagery from the dream is embedded all over Nephi’s vision. He started off saying, “I want to see the things my father saw,” but it does seem like it’s not exactly the same experience and it’s framed differently and pointing out different things. I mean, Nephi even makes that comment at one point. Well, the water’s dirty and our father didn’t notice that.

Hank Smith: 00:27:21 He didn’t mention, yeah, he didn’t see that.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:27:22 He’s having a kind of different experience, I think, and pulling new things out of it.

John Bytheway: 00:27:26 Yeah, I think of it as like Lehi saw it on this big screen TV and then Nephi wants to see it and they bring in another big screen TV. I don’t think angels use big screen TVs, but 1st Nephi 11:4, “Believest thou thy father saw the tree?” He says, “Yea, I believe all the words of my father.” And then in verse 6, “Yea, Nephi, thou believest in the Son of the most high God.” And it’s like, “Oh, so the tree is… Oh, okay.” So I feel like he sees the vision and interspersed with events in the life of Christ he sees some of the things that Lehi’s dream, his vision symbolizes and is going back and forth like this. That’s kind of the way I’ve thought of it. And like you said, Josh, at one point, “Yeah, my father’s mind was so caught up in other things he didn’t notice this.”

  00:28:12 I love the idea that if you ask, God might give you even more than you expected. What did Joseph Smith want to know? Well, which church should I join? What did he get? Why are we all sitting here today? Well, a teenage boy said a prayer, which is amazing. You might get more than you expect.

Hank Smith: 00:28:32 Yeah, you ask the Lord for a knife and he gives you the whole house that goes with it. I love this idea that perhaps Nephi saw the tree and then it transformed maybe in front of him, into the Lord, and then he sees the life of Christ, which maybe started as seeing the tree that…

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:28:48 We’re going to move on to chapter 12, but before we can fully appreciate why chapter 12 was so significant to Nephi, this is another case where I think we got to go back to the first ten chapters, see what’s going on in their family, what questions are they having, what are the issues, so that we can appreciate why is Nephi learning what he’s learning in chapter 12. I’d like to go back to chapter 8 for a moment here in Lehi’s dream. And of course, Laman and Lemuel are featured prominently in this dream. Dr. Strathearn talked about this in the last episode. That even though we can read the dream as being about broader groups of people, Lehi seems to be really focused on the implications of this in his own family. In 1st Nephi 8:36, Nephi summarizes, ” It came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many, he said unto us, because of these things which he saw in a vision, he exceedingly feared for Laman and Lemuel. Yea, he feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord.”

  00:29:49 Verse 37. “And he did exhort them with all the feeling of a tender parent that they would hearken to his words, that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them and not cast them off.” We’ve got this issue here. We’ve got a crisis in the family. Laman and Lemuel are at risk of being cast off from the presence of the Lord and that’s something that they’re all struggling with. Nephi is struggling with this. And to really appreciate the full significance of the dynamic here and what’s going on, I think we need to recognize that the terms being used here, presence of the Lord and cast off, are Old Testament covenant language.

  00:30:24 We got to go back a little bit again to Old Testament and kind of see a little bit of development of these ideas here so we can kind of appreciate why these ancient Israelites in this family are using these terms and what they mean by them. Let’s take a couple minutes and do quick Covenant 101 again. Just to sum up. Heavenly Father wants to have an intimate, binding, exalting, relationship with all of his children. That’s why he offers us the new and everlasting covenant so that we can come to him in that close relationship where we can grow and develop and become like Him in the bonds of that covenant relationship that we have.

  00:31:03 And President Nelson’s Liahona article, The Everlasting Covenant, which is from October 2022, he explains that we enter the new and everlasting covenant with baptism. And then he says, “When you and I also enter that path, we have a new way of life. We thereby create a relationship with God that allows him to bless and change us. The covenant path leads us back to him. If we let God prevail in our lives, that covenant will lead us closer and closer to him. All covenants are intended to be binding. They create a relationship with everlasting ties.” To illustrate how everlasting and binding these ties are, President Nelson talks about this Hebrew term that I’ve mentioned on the podcast before, hesed. President Nelson says that in English we don’t have a good word for the kind of love and loyalty and mercy that’s experienced within a covenant relationship, but the Israelites had a word for this and it’s hesed, H-E-S-E-D.

  00:32:07 President Nelson says, “All those who have made a covenant with God have access to a special kind of love and mercy. In the Hebrew language that covenantal love is called hesed.” And then he says, “In English, it’s translated a whole bunch of different ways like loving kindness or mercy or love or goodness.” And he says, “Hesed is a unique term describing a covenant relationship in which both parties are bound to be loyal and faithful to each other. Because God has hesed for those who have covenanted with him, he will love them. He will continue to work with them and offer them opportunities to change. He will forgive them when they repent and should they stray, he will help them find their way back to him.

  00:32:48 Once you and I have made a covenant with God,” President Nelson continues, “our relationship with him becomes much closer than before our covenant. Now we are bound together. Because of our covenant with God, He will never tire in his efforts to help us and we will never exhaust His merciful patience with us. Each of us has a special place in God’s heart. He has high hopes for us.” That’s the end of my quote from President Nelson. So we’ve got this idea in the Old Testament that God wants to have a covenant relationship with us, both as individuals and as part of this covenant people, Israel, that was formed when he covenanted with Abraham and Sarah. We covenant with God individually and we’re also part of this covenant family or covenant people, Israel, whose job it is to take the blessings of the new and everlasting covenant out to all the nations of the earth. From Genesis, “In thee and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.”

Hank Smith: 00:33:42 Josh, I think that’s a very important point. Oftentimes we talk about Israel as if they’re chosen and they’re better, that God has a people and that he doesn’t love the rest of the world. And what you said there is crucial. No, these are the chosen people to take my love to everyone else in the world.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:34:02 And then the idea is that once Gentiles join the covenant, that they’re numbered with or adopted into the house of Israel. This is an exclusive group that God wants every single person to be a part of. Everyone’s invited to partake of this covenant relationship with God.

Hank Smith: 00:34:17 It’s so exclusive. Everyone can be a part of it.

John Bytheway: 00:34:20 We just this past week talked about the Abrahamic covenant in Genesis 12 and it appears in a few places, but the Abraham, I think, version says to bear the ministry like you’re talking about. Your job is to take this to the world. And Elder Bednar even said once that that’s the reason the missionary gets his patriarchal blessing first so that they have that reminder they are house of Israel. So I like to say it’s kind of like being a chosen person is not to sit on a throne and be admired. It’s more like being chosen to mow the lawn. It’s more like God has a work for you to do. It’s a blessing, but it’s a burden too and a responsibility. So I like that you said that.

Hank Smith: 00:34:57 Genesis 12 says, “In thee,” to Abraham, “shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” That’s Genesis 12:3. Josh, thanks for pointing that out, that this group called Israel is not meant to be God’s chosen, exclusive, hey, we’re better than you. It’s you’re chosen to spread the message and invite everyone into this group.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:35:22 Yeah. He says there in the first three verses of Genesis 12, “I will bless thee, Israel”. You guys get the blessings of the covenant and through you you’re going to bless everybody else. This is his plan and his program to get the opportunity to join the everlasting covenant out to all his kids. He wants to have that close relationship with everyone.

Hank Smith: 00:35:40 And it seems it would work, but the only problem is Israel.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:35:43 Yeah. Unfortunately, like all relationships, things don’t always go perfectly. So in Old Testament language, this covenant language, you can kind of divide up your state into two conceptual categories, which they call being in the presence of the Lord or you’re separated from the presence of the Lord.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:36:00 They kind of divide it into those two. Being in the presence of the Lord means that you’re close to him, the relationship is working, you’re receiving the blessings of being in the covenant, you have his Spirit to be with you. Not being in the presence of the Lord is the opposite of that, where the relationship is experiencing friction or it’s broken. You’re not experiencing the blessings of being close to God in the covenant relationship. You’re distant from him, you’re not experiencing the wonderful results of being close.

Hank Smith: 00:36:30 Josh, is that what Lehi’s referring to then in 1 Nephi 36? “He feared lest they should be cast off from the presence of the Lord.” He’s not concerned what you and I might think is, “Oh, they’re going to outer darkness.” This is they’re stepping away from that relationship, that covenant?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:36:47 Exactly, in the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon, when they talk about this, you can think of being in the presence of the Lord in two different ways. There’s both an afterlife sense to this, where final judgment and being in the celestial kingdom in God’s presence or somewhere else, you have kind of an afterlife sense of being in his presence or not in his presence.

  00:37:06 But there’s also many scriptures that talk about this in this life, that this begins right now. We can be in his presence right now in this life before we’re literally physically there in the celestial kingdom, or you cannot be in his presence in this life. So, when we’re close to him in this life, we have his spirit to be with us, for example. That’s one of the great blessings of baptism and confirmation is having that member of the Godhead with you always.

  00:37:31 In the Old Testament, they often talk about the tabernacle or the temple, the house of the Lord being a place where you go to be physically close to him in his presence. They’ll use that term a lot there. They long to go to the temple, so that they can be in the presence of the Lord. So, we can think of it in afterlife terms, but we don’t want to just restrict it to that. We’ve got to recognize that this is a dynamic that can change right here, right now.

  00:37:55 So when Lehi is saying, “Oh, I fear that you’re not going to be in God’s presence,” he could be talking about both, that I fear for your eternal future, and right now you’re not experiencing the blessings of that close, intimate binding relationship with God because you’ve chosen to move away. So now, let’s look at that phrase, “Cast off,” that Lehi uses.

John Bytheway: 00:38:14 That was my next question, because instead of walking away, cast sounds like you’ve been thrown, so I’m glad you’re going to talk about it.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:38:22 Lehi fears that they’re going to be cast off. So, the Book of Mormon uses the phrase, like the Old Testament, “Cast off from the Lord’s presence.” Sometimes it’ll also say cut off from the Lord’s presence, mostly synonymous in what this means here. That means that you go from being in the presence of the Lord, experiencing that close relationship, to now you’re separated from the presence of the Lord, not experiencing that close relationship.

John Bytheway: 00:38:46 It’s one thing to be in the presence of God, another one to just kind of walk away or dwindle in unbelief, but cast or cut off sounds a lot more physical separation with some force. I don’t know.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:38:59 When we’re talking about the presence of the Lord and this image of being cast off, there’s a fantastic article on this by Dr. Jennifer C. Lane, who you’ve had on the podcast before. So, she wrote an article called The Presence of the Lord, and it deals with both the Old Testament and Lehi’s dream and Nephi’s vision, exactly what we’re talking about now. And you can read this for free at the BYU Religious Study Center website, that’s rsc.byu.edu. I would recommend that, and I’m going to be riffing off her great work here, plus my own analyses of these verses. Dr. Lane kind of breaks this all down and shows how the Old Testament context is playing out here with Lehi and Nephi and the language that they’re using.

  00:39:40 When we see cast off in the Old Testament, it’s usually translating a Hebrew verb, zanach. You might see it in other translations as to cast off, to reject, to abandon, but it’s a relationship term. It’s talking about people that were once close together, and now there’s a split happening where they are being separated. And what you see is in the Old Testament, a lot of people express some great anxiety and fear that they are going to be cast off from the Lord’s presence or that they already have been, and they’re worried that they won’t be able to undo this.

  00:40:13 So, I’ll just read a few examples here, so we can get a sense of how they’re using this language, and that’ll help us understand where Lehi’s coming from. Psalm 44, for example, verse 17, has people complaining, “All this has come upon us, yet we have not forgotten thee. Neither have we dealt falsely in thy covenant.” So, they’re experiencing hard times, and they’re saying, “Hey, we thought we were doing okay in the covenant, but we seem to not be.” Verse 23, “Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? Arise, cast us not off for ever.” And that’s the verb zanach again.

  00:40:48 And then in verse 24, “Wherefore hidest thou thy face?” And that’s paniym, it can also mean your presence. “And forgettest our affliction and our oppression, for our soul is bowed down to the dust, our belly cleaveth unto the earth, arise for our help, and redeem us for thy mercy’s sake.” And that’s the word hesed. Help us for your hesed. You’re supposed to be loyal to us, because of the covenant, and we’re not seeing your help. Don’t cast us off, and give us an act of hesed here.

  00:41:17 And then there’s others, like Psalm 60:1, or Psalm 74, verse one, where they’ll say, “Why are you casting us off? Please don’t cast us off forever.” I’ll read Psalm 77:7. It asks, ” Will the Lord cast off forever?” Rhetorical question. “Will he be favorable no more? Is his mercy,” his hesed, “Clean gone for ever? Doth his promise fail for evermore? Hath God forgotten to be gracious? Hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies?”

  00:41:50 So, you can see the struggle this person, the psalmist is experiencing as life is going nuts and they’re wondering, has God truly abandoned them forever? Psalm 89, starting in verse one starts off pretty positive. “I will sing of the mercies of the Lord.” The acts of hesed of the Lord forever. “With my mouth, I will make known thy faithfulness to all generations.” And then he quotes the Lord as we skip down several verses in the Psalm where God says, “I’ve made a covenant. My loving kindness, my hesed I will not utterly take, my covenant I will not break.” But then the psalmist feels like, well, God, you’ve promised this and yet I’m not feeling this in my life right now.” Verse 38, “But thou has cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth.” And I want you to notice here, it doesn’t say cast off from your presence, but that’s always implied.

  00:42:38 So, you can just say cast off and the presence part is implied because that’s what’s built in here. This is a relationship term. We’re in his presence and now we feel like we’ve been kicked out. Verse 39, “Thou has made void the covenant.” And then it asks, verse 46, “How long, Lord, wilt thou hide thyself forever, shall thy wrath burn like fire?” It doesn’t resolve this. They just feel like they’re not in his presence and they’re trying to fix this. I’ll do one last example. It’s from Lamentations chapter three, which is another Psalm-like exploration of this. This is a person who feels like their life is just the worst right now, that God has forsaken them. Verse one, “I am the man that has seen affliction by the rod of his wrath. He had led me and brought me into darkness but not into light, surely against me he has turned. He turned his hand against me all the day. My flesh and my skin has he made old, he has broken my bones.”

  00:43:34 And it goes on and on for many verses about God is mistreating them. They feel like God has let them down and God’s actually out to get them. But then in verse 21, it takes a turn. This is Lamentations 3 still as they say, “This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.” Meaning this is what I remember when I feel like this. 22, “It is of the Lord’s mercies, his acts of hesed that we are not consumed because his compassions fail not.” Verse 31, “For the Lord will not cast off forever, but though he caused grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies or his acts of hesed, for he does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.”

  00:44:20 So, they have that hope that because of God’s hesed, even though this person feels like God’s putting them through the ringer right now and is actually out to get them, they’re trying to trust and hope in the fact that because of that hesed that’s there, that commitment to that covenant relationship, that even though this person feels like they’ve been cast off out of God’s presence right now, that it’s not going to stay that way forever.

  00:44:40 Now, the Old Testament also explores, why is it that we get cast off? Is God being just capricious? Is this arbitrary? The sense you get is that no, we have full control over this. We choose whether we are cast off or not. For example, 1 Chronicles chapter 28:9 has David giving advice to Solomon and says, “Thou Solomon my son know thou the God of thy father and serve him with a perfect heart and with the willing mind for the Lord Jehovah searcheth all hearts and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts. If thou seek him, he will be found of thee, but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off forever.” That verb zanach again. So, there it’s clear that the person Solomon here has the choice to make. They can seek God or forsake him, and if they forsake him, then they’re cast off from his presence, but they’re fully in control of that. The issue is not what God wants to do. The issue is what we want to do. You see this as well in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is even better on clarifying the role of agency and the importance of choice. The 2 Nephi 7, verse one has a quote from Isaiah 50, but it adds line to the beginning that’s not in the Bible that helps clarify this even more. It opens by saying, “Yay, for thus saith the Lord speaking to Israel who has gone astray Have I put thee away or have I cast thee off forever?”

  00:46:19 And then we get into the Isaiah part, “For thus saith the Lord, yay to whom have I sold you? Behold for your iniquities, ye have sold yourselves and for your transgressions has this happened.” The Book of Mormon brings in that cast off language there, again, stressing that God doesn’t want to do this. This is the natural result of our choices and it makes sense when you think of this in terms of a relationship. If someone in a relationship is treating the other person like garbage, if they’re being abusive, if they’re not trying to build the relationship, then the relationship is simply going to suffer. It’s not going to be great if one of the parties is mistreating the other and doing things that hurt them. The Book of Mormon uses this cast off language a lot.

  00:47:03 Nephi is going to use it in the chapters we read today, but it’s clear always in the Book of Mormon, especially that we have full control over this. We choose whether we’re in God’s presence, enjoying the benefits of that close relationship or we choose whether to walk away and be cast off from his presence. The words that we typically use to describe this are repentance and rebellion. If we’re repenting, we’re doing those things that move us closer to the Lord so that our relationship is close and we’re in his presence. The opposite of repenting is rebelling, where we’re making conscious choices to move away from the Lord and do things that damage our relationship, so that we no longer feel close.

Hank Smith: 00:47:39 Josh, let me ask you a question. In that Lamentations, I think you read, there was this lament about being cut off. Did you say they turned it around? Is that the chapter?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:47:50 Yeah, Lamentations 3. They’re lamenting that God’s out to get them and there’s lots of graphic imagery about how God is ruining their life, and then in verse 20, when it says it turns, “This I recall to my mind, therefore I have hope,” and then they list the things that the remembering about the covenant and the loyalty and all of that. So, they’re saying this is what gets me through this. I’ve got all these reasons to think God is out to get me, my life is terrible, but I’m going to remember these things about the covenant to give me hope that somehow this is going to work out. The Lord does not cast off forever.

Hank Smith: 00:48:23 That would make perfect sense if Nephi is reading things like that for 2 Nephi 4, his lament, “Oh, this is awful. My life is awful. Things are awful, but-“

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:48:33 I know in whom I have trusted.

Hank Smith: 00:48:35 Yeah, that’s 2 Nephi 4:19, he turns it around. It sounded so familiar. I thought, “I don’t read Lamentations that often.”

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:48:44 Well, lots of people have analyzed 2 Nephi 4 as a psalm of lament. So, Nephi follows the patterns there. You express the woes and the problems, and then you have that pivot where you’re now expressing your trust and you’re saying, “You know what? This is going to work out because of the one I’m trusting in.” In his dream, 1 Nephi 8, Lehi in verse 17 was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit. Verse 18, “But they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.” Verse 35, “And Laman and Lemuel partook not of the fruit said my father.” So, this is why now he fears for Laman and Lemuel, lest they should be cast off forever because they’re making choices that are moving them away from the Lord. That’s what happens with rebellion. If the rebellion is severe enough and long enough, eventually there’s a rupture in the relationship where you’re no longer in the Lord’s presence experiencing that closeness and the warmth and the joy and the blessings there.

Hank Smith: 00:49:38 Rebel versus repent. Josh, I’m really glad you made that… John calls it a sermon in a sentence. That’s a sermon in three words, repent or rebel, rebel or repent.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:49:49 We should clarify though, we all struggle with our day-to-day sins and just challenges of life, and that daily struggle does not mean that we’re rebels or that we’re being cast off from the presence of the Lord. Elder Renlund in the April 2023 General Conference gave a talk called Accessing God’s Power Through Covenants, and he offered this important clarification on that. I’m reading from the end notes actually, end note seven. He says, “Everyone stumbles on occasion, but God is patient with our stumbles and has given us the gift of repentance, even after breaking a covenant. As Elder Richard G. Scott taught,” so now it’s Elder Renlund quoting Elder Scott, “The Lord sees weaknesses differently than he sees rebellion because when the Lord speaks of weaknesses, it is always with mercy.” So, that’s an important thing to remember, just because we slip up doesn’t mean that we’re a rebel and God’s kicking us out.

  00:50:48 Cast off is describing in the scriptures usually prolonged, severe rebellion. There’s a difference between someone saying, “God, this week I messed up. I tried and I messed up, but I want to take the sacrament, I want to keep trying. Please help me to do better.” That’s a different attitude than someone saying, “You know what? I don’t care. The church can’t tell me what to do. I’m going to sleep with who I want. I’m going to eat what I want. I don’t care what the commandments are,” and you’re not even trying anymore. That’s a rebellious attitude and it’s different from trying but messing up, which is something that we all experience. We want to be careful that we’re not being too hard on ourselves, while recognizing that there are real consequences for turning from the Lord and breaking his commandments.

Hank Smith: 00:51:27 You’re not a rebel, you’re just weak. A message from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:51:35 Yes, this then is the setup. Lehi and Nephi and the rest of the family, they’re afraid for Laman and Lemuel. We know that there’s problems. So, that is some background to chapter 12 where Nephi is going to see what’s the future history of their family, what’s going to happen here? And this is set up from this concern they have about, “Some members of our family are leaving the covenant path and we’re worried about them. We fear that they’re going to make choices where they’re going to be out of God’s presence forever and where they’re never going to repent and come back.” Before we start reading chapter 12 though, I want to read one verse from chapter 11 that’s a little bit of setup here. In chapter 11, verse seven, the Spirit tells Nephi that in the vision he’s about to see there’s something in particular he needs to watch out for, a special event.

  00:52:24 So the Spirit says, “Hey, Nephi, you’re going to see the tree, and then later in the vision, thou shall also behold a man descending out of heaven and him shall ye witness.” So, Nephi is told of all the stuff he’s going to see in this vision, “Watch for this moment when a man descends out of heaven,” apparently that’s going to be significant. So, we’re watching for that and it never happens in chapter 11, all of Jesus’ mortal ministry, it never says he descends from heaven. Finally, in chapter 12 is where the promised moment arrives, chapter 12, Nephi sees the promised land, he sees Nephites, he sees Lamanites, he sees generations of them living there, and he sees all the destruction that happens in 3 Nephi, vapor of darkness and earthquakes and all this. And then chapter 12, verse six, and I saw the heavens open and the Lamb of God descending out of heaven.”

  00:53:17 That’s significant, not just because it’s Jesus visiting the Nephites and we love that, but this is the moment the spirit told them to watch for, that there’s going to be something significant about this. So, then we’re kind of wondering, “What is it? Why is this visit such a big deal?” And then the rest of the chapter is a little bit perplexing because verses six through 10 has Jesus ministering to the Nephites, and we love it. It’s great, it’s beautiful, but then starting in verse 11, Jesus has taken off and the rest of the chapter is about what happens to Nephites and Lamanites after Jesus’ visit. And this is tremendously disappointing because it kind of looks like Jesus’ visit failed.

Hank Smith: 00:54:01 Just for the record, that could be my autobiography title: Tremendously Disappointing.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:54:10 You still have time to turn this around, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:54:12 Okay. Nevertheless, I know.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:54:15 Yeah. He sees three and a half generations passed away in righteousness, and then they all get wicked again. In fact, if you start in verse 11 and go to the end of the chapter, there’s 13 verses about the post-ministry effects of his visit. Two of them are positive, 11 of them are negative. The vision here spends a lot more time focusing on how everything falls apart after Jesus’s visit than it spends talking about how awesome the visit was.

  00:54:42 And this is a little hard for us to notice, because we’ve read Third Nephi, we’ve seen that movie The Testaments of one fold and one shepherd. We love the visit of Jesus to the Nephites. For us, it’s this big moment in our minds. We just got to stop and appreciate that in the vision, as the angels framing the story for Nephi at this point, Jesus’s visit looks like it’s a spectacular failure that has only very temporary positive benefits for them, and then they’re back worse than they ever were before. For Nephi, this must be incredibly disappointing.

  00:55:13 And that raises the question, why did the spirit say to watch out for this visit if it looks like it ends in apparent failure? And it turns out that this visit is actually more important than it looks like at first, but we don’t find out why it’s so important here in chapter 12. We’re going to have to wait until the end of chapter 13. We have to hold that thought here, that this looks like an apparent failure, things are not going great, but there’s something that happened here that was more significant. But Nephi doesn’t learn that at this point in the visit. We’ll have to circle back to this in a chapter and a half. Otherwise, we’ll just hold the thought and notice that chapter 12 ends with them dwindling in unbelief, and that they’re in spiritual darkness, and that this is not great.

John Bytheway: 00:55:54 I love what you’re saying here, because I remember at the end of this, Nephi is not saying, wow, it’s so great. It’s so wonderful. Actually, he’s considering that his afflictions are above all. In First Nephi 15, sorry to jump ahead, but this helps me understand why. What has he seen? As you described it, he’s seen some of the failure of his own people. I don’t know at this point I might’ve said, “Laman and Lemuel, you’re right. Why don’t you guys go back home, and I’ll take care of Dad and Mom?” Because he just saw his people get destroyed by the Lamanites.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:56:28 Yep. Now we move into chapter 13, and here we’re going to start dealing with Gentiles. And here’s, I want to back up a few chapters actually again to review a little bit of what Lehi taught last time, because it’ll help us appreciate this. If we go back to chapter 10, starting around verse 11, Lehi had told his family a very, very bare bones history of the House of Israel and Gentiles, very bare bones. So in verse 11, well, let’s start with verse 12. Lehi says, “The House of Israel should be compared like unto an olive tree whose branches should be broken off and should be scattered upon all the face of the earth.” Verse 14, Lehi says that the House of Israel will be gathered together again. Natural branches of the olive tree are the remnants of the House of Israel being grafted in and coming back.

  00:57:20 Basically, Lehi says the House of Israel has two basic steps. They’re going to be scattered and they’re going to be gathered. We’ve got those two. That’s about as simple of the history of Israel as you could summarize right there, scattering and gathering. But what Lehi also does is he gives them two steps in the history of Gentiles. Back in New Testament times, Messiah manifests himself by the Holy Ghost to them, they come to the gospel. And then in the last days, he says the Gentiles will receive the fullness of the gospel. Those are the two steps for Gentiles. Lehi is giving such a bare bones brief summary of the history there, it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Which I think is why Nephi’s brothers in chapter 15 when the vision’s done, Nephi goes to them and says, “Hey, what are you wondering about?” In chapter 15 verse 7, they say, “Behold, we cannot understand the words which our father hath spoken concerning the natural branches of the olive tree, and also concerning the Gentiles.” In other words, that was such a quick summary, we got questions.

  00:58:21 They might be wondering questions such as the following: why do the Gentiles have to get the gospel twice? Something’s fishy about that. They get it back in New Testament times, and then he says they get it again in the last days. There seems to be a missing step in between those two. Why are they having to get it again? Lehi doesn’t tell them that, and Nephi’s vision is going to get the info to flesh that out.

  00:58:43 Another question might be, why did Lehi say the Gentiles have to get that gospel again the second time first, and only then can the House of Israel be gathered? Lehi stops and clarifies that the sequence there is important, but he doesn’t say why. What’s the relationship between Gentiles getting the gospel again, and House of Israel getting gathered? He doesn’t say. That seems to be where the brothers are maybe getting confused. Seems to be some missing pieces to this puzzle that Lehi didn’t explain. Nephi’s vision now in chapter 13 is going to explore that, and he’s going to get all those answers so that he can explain it to them in chapter 15.

Hank Smith: 00:59:20 Josh, for our listeners who are hearing the term Gentile and maybe don’t understand what you mean, can you give us a quick definition from Lehi’s point of view?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 00:59:32 Yeah. From their point of view, Gentile is from a Hebrew term that just means the nations. It’s everybody who’s not Israel, not descended from Abraham. If you’re dividing up the world into two conceptual categories, you’re either part of the covenant family, Israel, or you’re not. We have this idea from Genesis that Israel is supposed to bless all these other nations, the Gentiles, through the covenant that they have. And in the longer version of that account from the Book of Abraham, you may prefer The Pearl of Great Price and Modern Revelation, it explains that as these Gentiles come to the covenant, that they’ll rise up and bless Abraham as their father. They’re adopted in, they’re part of the family now, so they get to join. That’s some clarification we get there from the book of Abraham.

Hank Smith: 01:00:15 The gospel’s going to go to them, New Testament, but then they’re going to get it before the gospel returns to the House of Israel. The two questions are, why do they have to get it again? They already got it. And why do they have to get it before we get it? Meaning Lehi and-

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:00:34 That’s what this chapter is going to explain. Chapter 13 of 1st Nephi, Nephi’s vision is going to flesh out all these details where Lehi kind of left them hanging.

Hank Smith: 01:00:42 Okay.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:00:42 Chapter 13 opens, Nephi sees many nations and kingdoms. And verse 3, he reports, “These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.” We’re very much now leaving the house of Israel behind for a second, and looking at the Gentile situation here. And then in verse 4, we get the formation of this great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches, that’s seeking after gold, and silver, and harlots, and all these worldly things.

Hank Smith: 01:01:11 Josh, could I compare that to the great and spacious building?

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:01:15 I think we should compare that to the great and spacious building.

John Bytheway: 01:01:18 In fact, in the Come, Follow Me Manual, there’s a statement from President Dallin H. Oaks. This is what he said. Well, I’ll just read the paragraph from the manual, because there’s a quotation within the paragraph.

  01:01:29 ” President Dallin H. Oaks explained that the great and abominable church Nephi described represents any philosophy or organization that opposes belief in God. And the captivity into which this church seeks to bring the saints will not be so much physical confinement, as the captivity of false ideas.”

  01:01:51 I’m glad you brought this up, because a church, we think of a building with a steeple, but he’s talking about any philosophy. They don’t necessarily have a building or organization that opposes belief in God, but it’s referred to as a church in First Nephi 13.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:02:06 And this might be a good point to point out something we haven’t mentioned yet, is that a lot of people have seen Nephi’s vision as being very apocalyptic, which I’m using in the technical sense that we learned last month when we were in the Book of Revelation. Where apocalyptic visions are a kind of Jewish literature, or a visionary experience where just like in Revelation and other examples, here you have an angel guide working a prophet through a history of the world, especially the end times. And in these visions, everything is very, very symbolic. You’re not meant to understand a lot of it in physical, literal ways.

  01:02:40 The church thing here is an example of that. We got that great insight from President Oaks. And you can see this at play, for example, in chapter 14 when the angel says, “Behold, there are save two churches only. One is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God, belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations.” And again, we’re not meant to be like, is this a church I can look up in the phone book? This is apocalyptic. Which means, in apocalyptic visions, everything’s very black and white, good versus evil, all or nothing. There’s no shades of gray, or nuance or anything like that. The angel’s presenting this as a very one versus the other sort of a thing.

  01:03:21 It would be a mistake then to be like, well, that church over there, they must be the one on that side. Like President Oaks said, it’s any force, philosophy, practice that either brings you closer to Jesus or against Jesus. That’s probably the sense here.

Hank Smith: 01:03:34 Fantastic. Thank you for clarifying that.

John Bytheway: 01:03:37 And Josh, I think that’s super important. This verse has kicked up a little bit of dust. You go out on a mission, you might’ve had it quoted to you, because they are thinking of a church like when you can look up in the phone book. Years ago Dr. Stephen Robinson wrote that article called Warring Against the Saints of God. And he said, “This church is more about who has your heart than who has your records.” Do you remember that statement? Because there are folks that are striving to follow Christ in all sorts of different physical churches, and they would not be called the whore of all the earth. I’m glad you’re explaining it this way, and that President Oaks referred to it that way. Anything that discounts or opposes a belief in God, type of a thing. I like what Stephen Robinson said, who has your heart, not who has your records.

Hank Smith: 01:04:25 John, I have written in my scriptures, I wish I had written down who I got this from. This kingdom of the devil, this great and abominable church, this great and spacious building. Even in the book of Revelation, the symbols of the dragon, and the woman on the waters. Any social, political or economic system that destroys lives and souls. This might be a little discouraging, but I read that just the pornography industry alone in the world makes over a hundred billion dollars a year. That’s more than the NFL, Major League Baseball and the NBA combined. No wonder if Nephi sees things like that, it’s this great and abominable group system.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:05:14 I think it’s appropriate to compare this to the imagery in Revelation. Because at the end of chapter 14, Nephi is going to see John in the Book of Revelation, and he’s told that there’s connections between his vision and that one. Looking at the apocalyptic imagery in Revelation and helping it shed some light on what’s going on here, I think the text is openly inviting us to do that.

John Bytheway: 01:05:34 When I’ve taught this, I’ve always appreciated Footnote 10 D. It gives, maybe we could call it a non-apocalyptic interpretation of what church is called the whore of all the earth. It takes you to 2nd Nephi 10:16. And that verse says, “Wherefore he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, male and female, shall perish. For they are they who are the whore of all the earth. For they who are not for me, are against me, saith our God.” That’s a nice footnote to, oh okay, shed some more light on what Nephi saw, or how it’s described apocalyptically and how it’s described in 2nd Nephi.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:06:12 All right. We have this picture here of Gentile Christianity. We get descriptions of them and coming across the waters to the land where Nephi and Laman and Lemuel’s descendants are living. And let’s pick up verse 20. In 1st Nephi 13, verse 20, “It came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land, and I beheld a book and it was carried forth among them.” And the angel pauses here for a long time to talk about this book. This is a really important historical moment. “The angel said unto me, knowest thou the meaning of the book?” Verse 22, “And I said unto him, I know not.” I would be thinking, you’re the angel, you tell me.

Hank Smith: 01:06:52 I love Nephi, he’s honest. He probably thought the same thing. I know not. I know God loves His children, but I don’t know the book.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:07:00 Then in verse 23, the angel explains the contents of the book. “Behold, it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew.” It’s a Jewish book. “The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the House of Israel. And it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets. And it is a record like unto the engravings which were upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many. Nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord which he hath made unto the House of Israel. Wherefore, they have great worth unto the Gentiles.”

  01:07:37 We got to break this down, because this is packed full of fun stuff. He describes the Bible, of course, as what we’re talking about, and he describes it as a kind of container. He says three times, it contains, it contains, it contains. What does it contain? Twice, he says, “It contains the Lord’s covenants with the House of Israel.” And that’s what we call the Abrahamic Covenant. In fact, Abrahamic Covenant is not a scriptural term. It’s just a lot easier to say than the actual scriptural term, which is, “The covenants of the Lord which he hath made unto the House of Israel,” which is a mouthful.

  01:08:10 So it contains the Abrahamic Covenant, and it says it also contains many of the prophecies of the holy prophets, which I don’t see as being a big different thing here. If you look at Isaiah, and Jeremiah, and Hosea and Amos, what are they talking about? The Abrahamic Covenant. We’ve got the covenants themselves spelled out, maybe some history record of the covenant playing out. We’ve got prophecies of gathering, and things like that. But he’s saying that basically everything to do in the Bible here revolves around these covenants. This is why it’s important.

  01:08:40 And what’s striking here, is most people today don’t see the Bible that way. If I were to go to New York, and you do one of those things where you stop people on the street with a microphone and a TV camera, and ask them a question out of the blue, and I were to go to a hundred Christians on the streets of New York and say, “Excuse me, sir, do you believe the Bible? Awesome, great. Why is it important?” How many out of a hundred do you think are going to go, “Oh man, love the Bible. It’s important because it’s got the Lord’s covenants with Israel”? I doubt we’re going to get very many people saying it that way.

Hank Smith: 01:09:13 Even if you went to a Latter-day Saint chapel and asked that, you might not get it.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:09:18 Exactly. Now, Christians appreciate the Bible for many awesome reasons. They might be like, it’s got awesome stories of faith, it’s got prophecies of Jesus’s coming. But the covenants with Israel are not going to jump to their minds as the top reason the Bible’s important. It should be striking to us that that’s why the angel says the Bible’s important. If people today are not seeing it the way the angel sees it, that should invite some questions.

Hank Smith: 01:09:46 Coming up in part two of this episode.

Dr. Joshua Sears: 01:09:50 I think this is one of the most significant verses in the whole Book of Mormon, and I’m about to make my case for that.